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Vivian Malone entering Foster Auditorium to register for classes at the University of Alabama. Vivian Malone, one of the first African Americans to attend the university, walks through a crowd that includes photographers, National Guard members, and Dep
Vivian Malone registers at the University of Alabama, accompanied by U.S. Deputy Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach and federal marshals
Affirmative Action continues to be under attack, and the Supreme Court's Schuette decision was no surprise. But if it is a moral and perhaps legal outrage for colleges and universities to give admissions preference to specific demographic groups, why aren't the ostensibly principled warriors against Affirmative Action also fighting against legacy admissions? Paul Waldman explains:
Meanwhile, the preferences whites enjoy remain firmly in place. There have yet to be any successful laws or ballot initiatives to ban “legacy admissions,” in which applicants who had a relative who attended the university are given special preference. No one can come up with rational grounds for retaining this affirmative action for wealthy white people, yet universities all across the country do. And there are other only slightly less blatant forms of favoritism; for instance, the reliance on standardized test scores provides a boost for wealthy students, most of them white, whose parents can afford expensive test prep courses and tutoring. Again, no serious person contends that SATs or ACTs are a pure measure of “merit,” yet they continue to play a huge role in college admissions.
Legacy admissions are blatantly racist, because at many American colleges and universities, minority admissions were prohibited or restricted until at least the latter half of the 20th century. Generations of white families established legacies at those colleges and universities, while minority families couldn't. The continued favoritism granted those often growing legacy families necessarily perpetuates the legacy of racism from the era of explicit minority exclusion. But about this form of affirmative action, those white supposed champions of equal opportunity are curiously silent. Perhaps they're not really concerned with fairness, perhaps they're really most concerned with protecting their historical privileges. Perhaps they fear that if admissions standards were truly fair and unbiased, they wouldn't be able to compete.

Originally posted to Laurence Lewis on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 12:45 PM PDT.

Also republished by White Privilege Working Group, Barriers and Bridges, Black Kos community, and Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (109+ / 0-)

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 12:45:18 PM PDT

  •  GOP: affirmative action for white folks (28+ / 0-)

    http://althouse.blogspot.com/...

    Affirmative Action For Dan Quayle
    No, young Dan Quayle didn`t try to pass for black or some other minority. He didn`t have to. The Indiana program was designed to give a second chance to students who showed good potential in spite of low grades and test scores. School officials say it was initiated mainly for minorities and the economically disadvantaged, but it was not limited solely to them. Dan Quayle qualified fair and square.

    He may hedge now on whether he received preferential treatment, but the simple truth is that he did. Thanks to the second chance given him by a school that happened also to be the recipient of large donations from his publishing family, he was admitted despite the fact that his grades and test scores did not meet the standards required of the majority. And the chance the school took with him turned out all right: He graduated and succeeded in his profession.

    The Indiana program was not called ``affirmative action,`` but that`s what it was. And it`s difficult to see how the Republican vice presidential nominee and his enthusiastic fans on the right can ever again attack other programs designed to give similar, special consideration to women and minorities.

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013 (@eState4Column5).

    by annieli on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 12:48:31 PM PDT

  •  I brought this up in La Feminista's (18+ / 0-)

    recent diary on this.  It got one rec - from her.

    Best Scientist Ever Predicts Bacon Will Be Element 119 On The Periodic Table

    by dov12348 on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 12:50:35 PM PDT

  •  Every single legacy should be separately (9+ / 0-)

    examined by an independent agency to see if they really qualify.  It's an outrage how this has been swept under the carpet for so long.  

    Best Scientist Ever Predicts Bacon Will Be Element 119 On The Periodic Table

    by dov12348 on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 12:53:27 PM PDT

    •  dov - you could make a case in public universities (13+ / 0-)

      but private colleges don't have to justify to anyone that they accept legacy students with less stellar records. It's their school, and their money. My guess is that they have found that granting legacy admissions helps the gifting and endowment wheel to go round and round.

      "let's talk about that"

      by VClib on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 01:59:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  They shouldn't even exist in public universities (4+ / 0-)

        Such admissions policies reinforce the worst elements of inherited social advantages.

        •  Affirmative action was a token program as it only (0+ / 0-)

          permitted a predetermined number of minorities whether it was in higher education or jobs.

          Affirmative action for whites and males is opened ended.

          As noted here many white people are admitted simply because they are white or are wealthy.

          SAT scores are designed to predict one thing; a students socio-economic status.

          If more reliable instruments were employed to measure  valid determining factors for academic success, population distributions at universities and on jobs may be equivalent to or exceed affirmative action targets for Black males and females  Latinos and other lower socioeconomic individuals..  

          However , this approach will not solve the problem of exclusion because of discrimination.

      •  Exactly (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        grover, VClib, thomask, Victor Ward
        Private colleges don't have to justify to anyone that they accept legacy students with less stellar records. It's their school, and their money. My guess is that they have found that granting legacy admissions helps the gifting and endowment wheel to go round and round.

        If you get confused, listen to the music play - R. Hunter

        by SpamNunn on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 03:39:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  legacy == MONEY, pure and simple. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        happymisanthropy, llywrch, Risen Tree
        you could make a case in public universities but private colleges don't have to justify to anyone that they accept legacy students with less stellar records. It's their school, and their money. My guess is that they have found that granting legacy admissions helps the gifting and endowment wheel to go round and round.
        Your guess is dead-on -- whether the university is public or private.

        Modern American higher ed is so poorly funded these days that virtually all universities must scrape all available moneys from anywhere they can get them.

        It's why purely academic full-rides are almost unknown in Colorado these days. Virtually all full-ride scholarships are going to athletes. Why? Because the schools need immediate net-positive return on investment to remain solvent.

        :-(

        "It's high time (and then some) that we put an end to the exceptionalistic nonsense floating around in our culture and face the fact that either the economy works for all, or it doesn't work AT all." -- Sean McCullough (DailyKos user thanatokephaloides)

        by thanatokephaloides on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 06:26:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Agree! It is time to stop harping on white ... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          thanatokephaloides

          ... and start focusing on GREEN!

          Yes, the vast majority of the American wealthy is white due to a truly horrible set of historical circumstances but that does not mean that all whites are wealthy and given the red carpet treatment into a good university. A poor white legacy is going to be rejected in favor of a wealthy one of any race.

          Legacy is affirmative action for wealthy people - not white people.

          I know that is going to sound quaint and naive but it is true and it is also the framing that is going to give this issue legs. Public universities were founded as a wedge into the fortress of inherited privelege and legacy undermines that very mission. A private institution that receives no federal money is free to do what it wants but our public universities should ban the practice.

          In the meantime our movement would do well to begin framing things less in terms of race and more in terms of wealth. That does not mean that I think all racial problems have been solved, just that I think green is the color that causes the vast majority of our solvable problems.

          Please do not be alarmed. We are about to engage... the nozzle.

          by Terrapin on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 08:59:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  the fortress of inherited privilege (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            raspberryberet
            I know that is going to sound quaint and naive but it is true and it is also the framing that is going to give this issue legs. Public universities were founded as a wedge into the fortress of inherited privilege and legacy undermines that very mission.
            As does reserving most/all of the full-ride academic scholarships for athletes.

            The kind of athletic prowess necessary to generate one's university an immediate positive cash return-on-investment (ROI) is not available to everybody who's willing to work hard enough, regardless of what the contrary propagandists may try to tell you. Unless you start off with serious innate talent, you're not ever going to get there no matter how hard you work.

            It's inherited privilege. Just like the money of the rich effers.

            And you're completely right as regards both of these cases.

            Public universities need to recall what their real mission really is. And the governmental entities which sponsor them need to fund them accordingly. (Are you listening, Colorado?)

            "It's high time (and then some) that we put an end to the exceptionalistic nonsense floating around in our culture and face the fact that either the economy works for all, or it doesn't work AT all." -- Sean McCullough (DailyKos user thanatokephaloides)

            by thanatokephaloides on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 11:10:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  There is a federal nexus. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        happymisanthropy

        These prestigious private universities get plenty of federal money.

  •  The lack of funding for state univ. doesn't help: (17+ / 0-)

    The percentage of funding coming from state governments to their state universities is down to the single digits, and schools rely on donations which means they'd better not turn down anyone donor's kids.

    The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014, with an appendix consisting an adjudication, dated "a long time ago", that I am Wrong.

    by Inland on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 12:55:14 PM PDT

  •  Who will protect the rich white folks? (8+ / 0-)

    They lead such sheltered existences and are persecuted worse than Jews under the Nazis. Just ask them they'll tell you.

    At long last is there no long standing bastion of privilege they can rely on?

    Blue is blue and must be that but yellow is none the worse for it - Carlisle Wheeling

    by kenwards on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 12:57:05 PM PDT

  •  Yes indeed (6+ / 0-)

    Thanks for this, LL.  Irony doesn't fly well with this Supreme Court or most conservatives.  

  •  Beyond racist - they're elitist (13+ / 0-)

    While racism is definitely in play, they also perpetuate class inequality.

    A core principle in our society is supposed to be equality.  But policies like these allow families to pass along an advantage.  This seems like a no-brained of a policy to strike down.

    I'm guessing colleges prefer to retain it as part of their Alumni benefits - which helps maintain a strong donor base.

    Understanding is limited by perspective. Perspective is limited by experience. America is a great place to live but it limits our ability to understand.

    by CindyV on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 01:08:31 PM PDT

  •  Legacy admissions are inherently about racism... (11+ / 0-)

    ...I agree. They're very much all about oligarchy and classism, as well.

    There was no "time out" for racism and (one of its byproducts) legacy admissions in the "more egalitarian" economics of the Baby Boom generation, however.

    In fact and inherently, to even discuss the "more egalitarian" economics of the Baby Boom generation is, in its own way, racist, unless one includes an "inconvenient fact"/truth (about that generation, as well), which I'll convert into a question: Q.: More egalitarian for whom? A.: For white people.

    "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

    by bobswern on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 01:10:40 PM PDT

    •  i almost titled this (11+ / 0-)

      "for rich white people," but i didn't want to distract from the core message. and these warriors against affirmative action often aren't themselves from the oligarchic class, but as usual are being distracted. because there are certainly many more legacy admissions than affirmative action admissions.

      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

      by Laurence Lewis on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 01:16:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, you're kidding, right? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        greengemini

        An alumni who doesn't donate is a persona non grata as far as legacy admission is concerned.

        Admissions folks will nod politely. But then they look to see how much you donated. Small donations? nothing? Ha! You're kidding! We hope your kid enjoys community college.

        This is all about rich people.

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 03:54:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  economic opportunity (0+ / 0-)

      Here is the thing. Most wealth is inter generational. Education builds in a family over generations.  Conservatives who say work and pride in work in a blessing, does not admit that what is really pride is earning the rewards of work, not work itself. Otherwise the US founding fathers would have OK shipping all the fruits of the labor to the UK, instead of revolting.

      For the first 100 years of this country most of the fruit of the labor of the labor of Africans working in the US was taken with no way to build wealth, no way to educate children to a better life, which is why slaves were not better off.

      When Oregon became a state, and was giving away the lands stolen from the natives, the freed slaves were not allowed to have any.  To this day Oregon has a black population of 2% while it's neighbor california has a population of over 6%. The ability to own land, earn capital, and have enough to send the kids to college was not available in Oregon.

      So, yes, the white man has affirmative action. And it will take a while to get over the fact that many of citizens of the US have not had the opportunity to succeed that others have had. For instance, Bill Gates ancestors were not prohibited from owning property.

    •  I'm glad you posted this (0+ / 0-)

      I, like  the majority of white people, never had any hope of a legacy admission. Of my grandparents, only one finished high school; my mother finished high school & had some college, but my Dad had to drop out due to a job offer he couldn't refuse from Uncle Sam, & he spent the next few years making history as an infantryman in World War II.

      I can't say I'm the first in my family to graduate from college -- my paternal grandmother attended a Teacher's College which might not even exist any more, & my parents met at a junior college that doesn't exist any more. And my maternal grandfather's brother attended a German university to receive an engineering degree a century ago. But talking about "legacy admissions" for me is as alien a topic as stories of my mother's uncle attending college in Germany. And probably even more exotic for most people.

      In short, if anyone wants to ban "legacy admissions", they won't hear me object, not in any way. It's not a racial advantage neither I nor anyone I ever knew enjoyed.

  •  Come on, you know the first rule of "White Club" (20+ / 0-)

    is you can't talk about "White Club".

    One of the more fiendish things about privilege is you aren't supposed to admit it exists. In fact, the very act of talking about diminishes its mystique and some of its power.

    GOP 2014 strategy -- Hire clowns, elephants, and a ringmaster and say "a media circus" has emerged and blame Democrats for lack of progress. Have pundits agree that "both sides are to blame" and hope the public will stay home on election day.

    by ontheleftcoast on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 01:20:58 PM PDT

    •  "White Club" (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ontheleftcoast, greengemini

      I like it.

      I WANT YOU TO WORK FOR ME AS HARD AS YOU CAN

      You WANT me on that server! You NEED me on that server!

      by nota bene on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 02:13:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm white (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ontheleftcoast, 1BQ, gramofsam1, thomask

      and I admit that white privilege exists.

      The problem for a lot of people when it comes to admitting that white privilege exists is that you either have to realize that you've benefitted from it and/or that it's wrong.

      29, white male, TX-07 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

      by TDDVandy on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 03:07:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yup, the unseen benefits that we whites get (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gramofsam1, poco, TDDVandy, thomask

        but don't even realize. Like not getting profiled while shoveling our driveway. Or arrested standing in front of our house. Or shot at while driving our own car. And not having to give "the speech" to our kids about how to survive in a white man's world when they go outside.

        GOP 2014 strategy -- Hire clowns, elephants, and a ringmaster and say "a media circus" has emerged and blame Democrats for lack of progress. Have pundits agree that "both sides are to blame" and hope the public will stay home on election day.

        by ontheleftcoast on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 03:18:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The problem starts going away when (0+ / 0-)

        those who've benefited from unearned privilege admit it to themselves and to others who've also benefited. Not sure what action that awareness will spur - that's for each individual to decide - but you've taken the first hard step, and I hope that you'll take further steps to address the problem.

        preborner: (n.) one who believes that the right to life begins at conception and ends at birth.

        Repeal Benghazi!

        .

        by 1BQ on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 03:25:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yep, they all think (0+ / 0-)

          they did it all on their own.

          Just like GWB thinks that he started and ran companies all on his own with no help from anybody.

          The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

          by dfarrah on Sun Apr 27, 2014 at 08:24:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  You mean, the culture we live in? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Laurence Lewis

    I've got some outrage about it.

    Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

    by SouthernLiberalinMD on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 01:24:22 PM PDT

  •  We should have been making the (7+ / 0-)

    Legacies = Affirmative action for whites meme from the start. I heard it years ago and am really surprised we haven't run with it when the right complains about Affirmative action.

    Why do I have the feeling George W. Bush joined the Stonecutters, ate a mess of ribs, and used the Constitution as a napkin?

    by Matt Z on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 01:48:33 PM PDT

    •  Legacies as preferential treatment (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NearlyNormal, VClib, denise b

      is a legitimate criticism. It is also legitimate that minorities have historically been systematically excluded from the opportunities that would confer upon them the ability to take advantage of legacy preferences. However, until one or two generations ago, the the rate of college attendance, let alone attendance at an elite private institution, was very small even among whites. To generalize the privilege of multi-generational legacy preferences -- a privilege afforded to a very small number of wealthy families -- as something that has benefited whites in general or has benefited anyone save the wealthy is neither fair nor accurate.

      Just because something has hurt blacks as a group doesn't mean that it's helped whites en masse. If we as a united society are going to try and dismantle structures of privilege, at least stop expecting us to have lived the same lives as the oligarchs.

  •  I'm guessing there are two levels of (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Laurence Lewis, mcstowy, grover

    heh heh -- "donation" -- if you will:

    Once to get him in and once to get them to graduate him.

    Best Scientist Ever Predicts Bacon Will Be Element 119 On The Periodic Table

    by dov12348 on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 01:49:59 PM PDT

  •  LL - no rational grounds?? (10+ / 0-)

    The rational grounds of legacy admissions is very obvious, money. Alums give money to their alma maters in part to make it easier for their children and grandchildren to attend. Not all legacy applicants are accepted but they have a better chance than most other students. Colleges and universities are always seeking donors to increase their endowments. Providing legacy admissions plays a critical role in that process.

    In addition, legacy admissions are not race based on their face. The children of rich donors from all races are treated the same. While this policy clearly favors whites, it is not an area subject to legal challenge in private schools. How legacy admissions are handled in public colleges and universities is  a public policy question and they could be eliminated without legal ramifications.

    "let's talk about that"

    by VClib on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 01:56:05 PM PDT

    •  and here we have lawsuits (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TDDVandy, poco, pat bunny, greengemini

      against affirmative action at public schools, and silence about legacies.

      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

      by Laurence Lewis on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 01:57:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  lucre (6+ / 0-)

      it's what everything in America boils down to. Anything that does not involve money changing hands is communism.

      The children of rich donors from all races are treated the same.
      And the racial breakdown of rich donors accurately reflects the broader demographic composition of America, right?

      If you ever wanted a better illustration of what people mean by "white privilege," there it is. It's so built in to everything around us that we can't see it even when someone points right at it.

      You WANT me on that server! You NEED me on that server!

      by nota bene on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 02:10:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  More accurately legacy is really legacy plus money (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      VClib

      Children and grandchildren of alums who did not make very significant donations over the years of over $100,000 and more don't get an advantage in admissions.

      The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

      by nextstep on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 06:15:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Big losers from ending legacies are low income (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      VClib, Victor Ward

      students.

      Large alumni giving makes very large scale financial assistance possible for low income students.

      In a bigger picture, the large alumni giving encouraged by alums in expectation of preferences given to their children and grandchildren also makes it possible for low income (disproportionately non-white) students to attend at far less cost or no cost at the universities that are most competitive.  Need-blind admissions at highly competitive universities would not happen without large university endowments made possible by alum giving.

      What would be the impact on disadvantaged minority attendance at highly competitive private universities, if financial aid and tuition reductions were dramatically reduced because alum giving fell because of the end of legacy for those who were substantial donors?

      The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

      by nextstep on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 06:34:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Trickle down... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Be Skeptical

        education.

        This makes about as much sense as Mike Huckabee on mescaline. - Prodigal 2-6-2008

        by Tonedevil on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 07:16:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Private colleges can do what they want, fine (0+ / 0-)

        I just want the legacy practice ended at public institutions.  

        You have a point about the financial aid though.  It's a funny thing now about the costs of private vs public universities.  For many, or even most, families, it is cheaper to go to an "expensive" highly selective private college than to a high quality public university because the need-based financial aid is so much more generous at the wealthy private colleges.  For a number of the most select schools, families earning close to $100,000 a year are not expected to pay for tuition (at Amherst, the average financial aid award is $47,000.  And they give grants, not loans).  

      •  Absolutely (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nextstep

        This is apples and oranges.  One (Affirmative Action) is a preference granted to the student.  The other (legacy admission) is a perk granted to the alumni.  As far as I'm concerned, my son should get a preference for admission to the school where I paid tuition for all those years,...and that I have tried to support financially, and in other ways, ever since.

        If legacy admissions go away, as well as preferential treatment for season football tickets, etc., so will endowments and contributions,...and so will financial aid that goes far and away to less affluent applicants.  

  •  Alumni preferences are not affirmative action (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NearlyNormal, Victor Ward

    A white or Asian person cannot benefit from AA because they are not under-represented minorities. Children of blacks, Hispanics, etc. who graduated from college can get a legacy preference. Moreover, underrepresented minorities can get an AA preference at many schools. Legacy preferences are only good at one school. (Well, two if you have two parents.)

    However, I do think legacy preferences and university donation based preferences should be eliminated from admission policies of public schools at a minimum. Likely private schools, too.

  •  Two words: No. Shit. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mcstowy, poco, Gator Keyfitz, a2nite

    But don't call anybody who is against affirmative action racist.

    In fact, it's highly racist because anybody who claims to be for "merit-based" admissions, also usually seems to have the assumption that white students are de facto more qualified than minority students.

    But, strangely, the girl who sued the University of Texas over its race-based admissions came from a high school that's something like 40 percent Asian.  So white people love for everything to be "merit-based" until "merit-based" doesn't benefit white people.

    29, white male, TX-07 (current), TN-09 (born), TN-08 (where parents live now)

    by TDDVandy on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 02:06:17 PM PDT

  •  Do the public universities in question generally (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    grover

    have legacy preferences? I've generally understood those to be primarily a factor at the more elite private institutions.

    •  some do (3+ / 0-)

      the school in question in the case, U of M, also my alma matter, has discretion, as it did in its affirmative action program:

      Often, if you ask an admissions counselor or consult the university’s web page, you can find information on legacy admissions. For example, the University of Michigan admissions evaluation page outlines the qualifications for admission and clearly states that applicants whose parents, step-parents, grandparents, siblings or spouse are alumni of the school will be given “discretionary consideration
      http://www.campusexplorer.com/...
      •  Well, I'd love to see a lawsuit about that. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jfromga
        •  agreed (0+ / 0-)

          if they have discretion to admit students on the basis of family relationships, I don't know why considering race as part of the overall set of factors is so bad.  Considering minority enrollment at the university is down 30% at this point,  it tells me that admissions aren't going well.  UofM had trouble maintaining minority enrollment on top of failing to attract a large minority group in admissions back when I was there forty years ago.  It isn't getting much better with this decision.

          •  Isn't that the truth (0+ / 0-)

            It was far worse, before.  When I was at Penn State in the 1980's, you could walk across campus between classes (a mile walk), and count the black kids you'd pass on one hand,...and maybe have a few fingers left.  And, it's a pretty good bet one or two of them was a football player.

            I have to say, it's better now.  Not great, but better.

    •  Univ of Calif does not have legacy admissions (3+ / 0-)

      There is no excuse for them at public universities.

      Here is a comment made by a poster in another diary that has a link to a very useful article on legacy admissions.

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

  •  Even if there were outrage (0+ / 0-)

    it wouldn't matter if it didn't come from the Right, which is privileged when it comes to outrage.

    And the D's have no stomach for outrage. There is no end to insults and injuries they will take to avoid public conflict.

    Trust, but verify. - Reagan
    Vote, but Occupy. - commonmass

    When the rich have tripled their share of the income and wealth yet again, Republicans will still blame the poor and 3rd Way Democrats will still negotiate.

    by Words In Action on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 02:37:35 PM PDT

  •  Re (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SpamNunn, Victor Ward

    Nothing you talk about is race based.

    Disadvantaged black children are free to get the same assistance that disadvantaged white children are, and always will be. Economically based assistance will always be available.

    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

    by Sparhawk on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 02:46:14 PM PDT

  •  Being a legacy admission has little to do with (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    grover, VClib, Victor Ward

    your ethnicity.   It mostly has to do with money.   That being said, if you are a person of color and a legacy (and Ivies have been admitting people of color at rates higher than their representation in the general population since the 70's), you are very likely to be accepted at any Ivy.  

    See the Ivy admission stats, below.  These stats bode well for legacies of color.   Don't knock the practice, just because a lot of white people used to be its almost exclusive beneficiaries.  

    http://theivycoach.com/...

    If you get confused, listen to the music play - R. Hunter

    by SpamNunn on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 03:38:49 PM PDT

    •  whoosh (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nota bene, poco

      as i said, given that people of color were altogether excluded from admissions for decades, that means that white families had decades to build exclusive legacies, from which they still benefit.

      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

      by Laurence Lewis on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 05:16:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  more whoosh on this thread (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Laurence Lewis, poco

        than a wind tunnel....

        You WANT me on that server! You NEED me on that server!

        by nota bene on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 06:05:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I agree in general (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Victor Ward

        However, AA practices have been in effect for several decades now, and most students from the 1970s and 1980s have, or already had, college-age children who could benefit from those legacy policies.

        Whatever though, I am against legacy policies anyhow. particularly at public institutions.  And while affirmative action may have lost support, it may hearten you to know that 3/4 of Americans are against legacy admissions.  So I don't know about "outrage," but there is a lot of dissatisfaction.

        Washington Post: "Should colleges stop legacy preference in admissions?"

        •  so 1 or 2 generations (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          poco

          versus multiple generations. it's still wildly unjust. but we agree on abolishing legacy admissions.

          The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

          by Laurence Lewis on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 06:27:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think a real movement could end the legacies (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Victor Ward

            It's actually an issue that both Democrats and working class white Republicans could support.  Asian voters are no doubt repelled by it as well.  Do they really want their tax money paying to support a public college system that makes it easier for people to get in if they came from a more privileged background?

            •  it could be (0+ / 0-)

              but conservatives and right wing media are invested in focusing on affirmative action, pitting less affluent whites against less affluent minorities, so those less affluent whites don't focus on disparities and privileges of affluence itself. as always.

              The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

              by Laurence Lewis on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 06:50:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  So what. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Victor Ward

        People of color have had close to fifty years to build the same legacies, and the admissions statistics don't show any sign that legacy admissions are doing anything to harm the chances of people of color to gain admittance to competitive schools.

        Rather, legacy admissions, perfectly legal in private institutions, insure continued large endowments for those universities that follow that practice.  

        There's no story here.  

        If you get confused, listen to the music play - R. Hunter

        by SpamNunn on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 07:45:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you have no clue (0+ / 0-)

          but you do have a clear sense of entitlement.

          http://www.princeton.edu/...

          The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

          by Laurence Lewis on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 08:56:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Did you even read the paper that you linked? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Victor Ward

            If you did, did you understand it.

            I know one thing.  If I have any sense of entitlement, it's a sense that, if someone bothers to respond to my comment that I am entitled to a response that does not not insult me, personally, or insult my intelligence by providing a link to a paper that they didn't read or understand.  

            If you get confused, listen to the music play - R. Hunter

            by SpamNunn on Thu Apr 24, 2014 at 05:41:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  yes (0+ / 0-)

              an effective boost of 160 on the SAT is no big deal, if you take it for granted. the higher boost for affirmative action is no big deal, if you take for granted that affirmative action is a form of preference and legacies are standard operating procedure. please do keep revealing yourself.

              The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

              by Laurence Lewis on Thu Apr 24, 2014 at 08:32:31 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Legacies should not be guaranteed. (0+ / 0-)

    It is a form of affirmative action and as such should be ONE checkmark in the positive column, but not a significant thumb on the scale.

  •  I've long equated AA to legacy programs. (0+ / 0-)

    I must admit, when I was accepted to an elite college, their promise of legacy admissions was attractive.  I wanted the path of my progeny to  be clearer than it had been for me (minority, female, underprivileged, &c).

    At the same time, while I benefited from AA as a structure, I know that I could have easily competed with my peers without it, academically.  AA just made it easier with regards to financial aid, as minorities from poor backgrounds are often more eligible for FA.

    After this ruling, I am more than willing to have legacy programs sacrificed to try to balance the scales (which will never happen, as the two programs were never balanced in the first place in terms of how financial/socioeconomic backgrounds rival that of those less privileged).  The philosophical bases are so similar as to be the same.  If one perishes on this SCOTUS altar, let them both.

  •  " Again, no serious person contends that SATs (0+ / 0-)

    or ACTs are a pure measure of “merit,” yet they continue to play a huge role in college admissions." "Merit" is a tricky term. In terms of future college performance, SATs and ACTs are superbly predictive. No serious person would contend otherwise.

    Are legacy admissions a large factor at state universities, which are the focus of Schuette and the source of most public concern?

    •  But performance in class is more predictive (0+ / 0-)

      than SAT and ACT scores per numerous research work. So I don't know what you're tying to say here. I'm shocked to read here how white liberals think the same as their conservative cohorts when it comes to issue affecting blacks.

      •  Slate recently featured an article by David (0+ / 0-)

        Hambrick and Christopher Chabris entitled "Yes, IQ Really Matters." They note that SAT scores predict first year college about as well as high school grades, and that the best predictions are made by considering both factors. SAT scores also predict GPA in subsequent years of college and many other life outcomes such as income and health. SAT/ACT scores, IQ, Spearman's g - call it what you will, but it is important.

  •  I think you missed the bigger point (3+ / 0-)

    If race is ignored, our universities will become predominantly Asian.

    http://blog.priceonomics.com/...

    It will be interesting to see how these racists will think about affirmative action when it's their race that needs it.

  •  Legacies (4+ / 0-)

    Willard Romney (George Romney)
    William Kristol (Irving Kristol)
    George W. Bush (Bush Dynasty)
    Mike Wallace (Chris Wallace)
    Jonah Goldberg (some tabloid harpy from the 90s)

    etc. etc.

    Nothing worse than a bunch of beneficiaries of white privilege and inheritance lecturing the minorities on hard work and the meritocracy.

    Positively MrBurnsian.

    Enough to make you puke.

    •  Except for the Bushes... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Peace Missile

      none of the people you named are legacies.  

      Mitt went to Stanford, Brigham Young, and Harvard.  George Romney went to Latter-Day Saints University, University of Utah, and George Washington University.

      William Kristol went to Harvard.  Irving Kristol went to City College of NY.

      Chris Wallace went to Harvard.  Mike Wallace went to the University of Michigan.

      Jonah Goldberg attended Goucher College.  His mom went to George Washington University.

  •  There is no affirmative action for... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Laurence Lewis

    ...transpeople, regardless of race.

    In fact, we are all too often denied admission or kicked out of school or abused until we give up and leave.

  •  Legacy preference also hurts Jews (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Laurence Lewis, Peace Missile

    as almost every selective college had Jewish quotas.

  •  A student at a selective college who does poorly (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Laurence Lewis

    is almost certainly a legacy.

  •  The Right is trying hard to deny US racist past (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gooserock, Laurence Lewis

    and present. Their shtick is that racism in the USA is dead,if it even ever existed. Why, the founding fathers were all about equality, doncha know? So now they're trying to deny deny deny by claiming we play the so-called race card when we speak of racism. We can't let them get away with this. Bundy and his ilk are the ugly underbelly of American society. He says out loud what they think. Wasn't it Paul Ryan who so recently expressed dismay at the lack of incentive among "The Blacks" in the inner city? Or one of those "respectable" GOPers. I get them confused, as they all look alike to me.

    "Let's stay together"--Rev. Al Green and President Obama

    by collardgreens on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 06:21:43 PM PDT

  •  My entry in the pundit derby: (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gooserock, llywrch, Laurence Lewis

    "Whites are outraged about affirmative action for minorities, and minorities are outraged about affirmative action for whites, so it's just one of those situations where everyone is at fault."

    If you send my certificate by overnight mail, I can be on one of those Sunday talk shows tomorrow!

    It's not the side effects of the cocaine/I'm thinking that it must be love

    by Rich in PA on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 06:26:47 PM PDT

  •  What??? (0+ / 0-)

    I agree that legacy programs should be eliminated, but I think that everyone here is missing one huge issue... Affirmative action is state-sanctioned discrimination BY PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS, while legacy programs are implemented by PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS. If the University of Michigan instituted legacy admissions incentives, I would be against them as much as I am the race-based (not merit-based) scoring for admissions.

    •  you have no idea what you're talking about (0+ / 0-)

      on multiple levels.

      How much does parents' alumni status count?

      The University of Michigan values the relationship it has with current and former students. These students and alumni are part of the Michigan community; they provide service and support to the larger University community. As such, application reviewers take into consideration applicants who have a direct relationship, or stepfamily relationship, with someone who has attended the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor as a degree-seeking student.
      top

      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

      by Laurence Lewis on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 08:51:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  well, I'll quibble (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy

    If you're a non-rich white person, legacies don't help you.

    So while legacies are a problem, they're not the same as affirmative action for white people.

    •  you have a partial point (0+ / 0-)

      but only partial. because some non-rich white people got admitted to schools that didn't admit minorities. there are plenty of legacy families that aren't rich. particularly as wealth disparities continue to expand.

      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

      by Laurence Lewis on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 08:58:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Great post Laurence. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Krush, Laurence Lewis

    "Seriously, Folks, WTH?" - ("What the Heck? "h/t Joan McCarter, Seriously, Florida. WTF?)

    by HoundDog on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 06:42:55 PM PDT

  •  This post is completeley wrong (0+ / 0-)

    Instead of focusing on questions about legacy admissions, we should focus on implementing programs to improve educational opportunities for students between K through12.  College admissions may be too late to intervene effectively.  Plus, giving race based preference to some people is discrimination.  Admissions is a zero sum game.  One can't give admission preference to one without hurting another.  

  •  There Should be Affirmative Action for (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Laurence Lewis

    People who are, relatively speaking, less inclined to get sunburned.

    This aggression will not stand, man.

    by kaleidescope on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 08:35:12 PM PDT

  •  Or, How About (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Laurence Lewis

    Legacy admissions for those who are blood descendants of people who were chattel slaves in the New World.  Nothing racial about that.

    This aggression will not stand, man.

    by kaleidescope on Sat Apr 26, 2014 at 08:44:42 PM PDT

  •  Legacies at my college. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Laurence Lewis

    I went to an esteemed and highly selective small liberal-arts college.  The legacy students who attended were both rich and dumb as dirt.

  •  22% of White Liberals on Daily Kos support AA (0+ / 0-)

    repeal. I was shocked when I saw in last week here. While white people bask in their "white privilege," they often call us minorities crybabies but they forget that they don't have anyone denying them access to anything because of the color of their skin or culture. This "white privilege' permeates all our socio-politico-legal-economic system. So what white people especially liberal white men think is that they've got theirs and that racial minorities are just out of luck.
    In the US so-called jury system, if you are black and the defendant is white, the chance is that no matter what, you're guilty and if the defendant is white, s/he is certainly NOT guilty.  
    In job search if you are black with better GPA, the chance is that your white cohorts with lower GPA will get very high-paying jobs and you are likely to be unemployed or work in low-paying job that require HS degree. There is a research out that shows that black people with college degree make lifetime income very similar to white HS graduates. And, yet white people are the first to point out how blacks don't like education. A guy came on MSNBC and pointed out that new hires this year at Wall Street firms were as white as the color white although in colleges whites are not doing better than other minorities like Asians.
    Another issue is the college admission test. I came from Africa where it's very difficult to get access to college admission test books or have any chance of going to any college test review classes.Yet I did just fine. I just learned that there're differences in the English Language we learn in my country. This is because we were colonized by the Brits so we study the Queens language not the American English. I learned to my chagrin that certain sentences I saw in the GMAT I took that I thought were wrong were actually correct. For instance, in British English if you say "This is different than that", it is wrong but in American English it is perfect. In the British English you have to say "This is different from that." You can't put that after different in British English. These are some of the reason why Africans score very high in the math part but don't do well in the English or verbal version. So if we say that cultural and background does affect how one score in these tests it's not because we're crybabies but because after going through the system, we can identify areas where they system doesn't serve everybody fairly. Asians for instance tend to do very well in these tests yet many can't even put sentences together. I'm not saying they are not smart. Most of my Asian classmates are smart but they're not better than me. I'm happy to say that even with my lower GMAT score compared to most of them, I came with the highest GPA in my graduating class.
    And no matter what I do, it's likely my White and Asian classmates will be the first to get jobs and the chances are that I might not hit a high-paying job as them.
    Due to my high academic performance at the school. a professor asked me whether people in my country are as smart as I am. Though I took offence to that statement, I tried to stay calm. I told him, I was just an average student and was just in the top 50% of my graduating  class when I did my undergrad degree in Africa. He was shocked and asked me how they can get more of them to study at the school. I told him the problem lies in the way the admission tests are administered and  used. I told him in Africa, if you look at our test scores and even our GPAs alone, it's likely most of us wont get into American Universities. In Africa it's very hard to make an A in a subject. Exams are really difficult and if you are able to make GPA of 3.3, it is equivalent to 3.8+ GPA here. I came with a GPA of 3.33 and my GPA here in my master program is over 3.99. I'm not saying that everybody that comes here with my kind of GPA will make the same GPA here but I find the programs here less difficult not because of the abundance of study materials alone but I can always remember some of the "sharks" I schooled with back in Africa. In my country highly smart student are called "sharks."
    I hope the world is a fair place, but it's not and not going to be. Notwithstanding that we will not lose hope. We will continue to try to change the world until we get to a point where people of all colors can be given equal chance to succeed if they hope and try as hard. Thank you!

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