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Apple is evil.  There's no way around it.  They have become one of the world's great tax dodgers, pissing off governments from Australia to France by their tax-dodging ways, all the while using the infrastructures those very countries established so that they can earn massive profits.  This does not include their wage stealing from engineers, wage stealing from their retail workers, their use of sweatshops to manufacture their goods, their poor environmental record (link, though, hey! they're trying to change!).  

See after the doo-dad for that $130 billion.

So, I read the Financial Times on a regular basis--Ol' Diz may be a country boy, but he likes to stay informed.  And guess what just burned his butt yesterday?  This (from the print edition):

Apple Eyes Second Big Bond Sale to Help Fund $90 bn Share Buyback

Apple is preparing the groundwork for another blockbuster debt sale in the region of $17 bn that would rank as the second largest corporate bond sale of all time.  The world's most valuable company said last week that it planned to increase its share buyback from $60 bn to $90 bn, funded by domestic and international bond sales.

Apple plans to use the proceeds from the debt sale to fund the buyback rather than tap into its $150 bn cash pile.  About $130 bn, 88%, of that cash is held overseas, and returning it to the US would lead to a tax charge of up to 35%....  During Apple's quarterly results call last week, Luca Maestri, the company's incoming finance chief, said repatriating offshore cash would incur "significant" tax consequences.

Meanwhile, activist investors are trying to get Apple to provide more and bigger dividends.  Be that as it may, Apple is starting to become one of the premier dividend producing corporations, right up there with fellow tax dodger GE.  

Apple's tax "burden" in the US for 2013 will be around $7 billion.  Lot of money.  But that's on 2013 revenue of $170 billion, $37 billion of which is in profits.  They manage to sock away a lot of their profits to Ireland, where they pay 2% in taxes.

So, back to that $130 billion parked overseas.  If they repatriated the whole lot and the GOP had their way allowing them to pay a tax rate of 5%, they would pay $6.5 billion to Uncle Sam.  If they paid the actual 35% rate (though of course, this is rarely done by any corporation) they would pay $45.5 billion.

Think on that last figure for a moment. I'm sure we can each come up with a federal program that could use the money.  Even the $6.5 billion under Cantor's plan.  

Yet, many still worship at the idol of Steve Jobs or see Apple as the wave of the future.  However, since "corporations are people too" with free speech rights, it seems to Ol' Diz that this corporation needs to decide its nationality and perform its civic duties.

Oh, one more thing.  Apple is a big campaign donor to the Democratic Party...

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Comment Preferences

  •  It's the economic system. It incents corporations (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dizzydean, PatriciaVa, Floande, unfangus

    and people to do the wrong things for the wrong reasons.

    It's unavoidable for people who want mainstream careers and lifestyles, so most people just embrace it, call that pragmatism and not doing it, impractical.

    And like lemmings they are running headlong over the Climate Change cliff...

    all the while doing what would otherwise be considered the sleaziest things to each other.

    I've never left a blank space on a ballot... but I will not vote for someone [who vows] to spy on me. I will not do it. - dclawyer06

    Trust, but verify. - Reagan
    Vote, but Occupy. - commonmass

    by Words In Action on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 06:52:12 PM PDT

  •  Add to that list (7+ / 0-)

    Virtually any multinational company including Google, Microsoft, Starbucks and News Corps (News Corps' UK  satellite TV subsidiary BSkyB).

    "Come to Sochi, visit the gay clubs and play with the bears" - NOT a Russian advertising slogan.

    by Lib Dem FoP on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 06:53:39 PM PDT

  •  Overseas (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dizzydean, wintergreen8694, llywrch

    One part of the tax avoidance issue I've never really understood is what advantage companies get by stashing revenue overseas.  If they never bring it back, it's just going to sit there.  Profits aren't much use if you can't spend them, and one would think shareholders would like to get their hands on some of that $130 billion.  Better to pay tax on it and get it rather than not get anything at all.

    Are they just waiting and hoping that tax rates will go down someday?

    Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre.

    by Sky Net on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 06:54:51 PM PDT

    •  Well, the thing is they can use it for (4+ / 0-)

      things like dividends for shareholders or stock buybacks.  Apple right now is doing one of the largest private bond sales to raise $90 billion for a stock buyback program--they decided to do this rather than tap into their cash-on-hand.  Not sure why, unless they have plans for some of that cash...

      To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

      by dizzydean on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:00:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's a question (0+ / 0-)

        Can they really use overseas-held profits to pay dividends to shareholders in the U.S.?

        Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre.

        by Sky Net on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:10:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  to get that cash here for a dividend, (6+ / 0-)

        they'd have to dividend it back to the US parent and pay tax on it.

      •  Apple can't buy back shares or pay dividends (8+ / 0-)

        with the offshore cash. But they can borrow and use that money to pay dividends and fund the stock repurchases.

        "let's talk about that"

        by VClib on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:20:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  In other words, they can access it for such (4+ / 0-)

          things, but have to launder it first.

          To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

          by dizzydean on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:21:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  They can use it for all offshore investments (5+ / 0-)

            but can't use it in the US without paying a 35% tax, which fiduciary rules will not allow them to do. Apple will put the cash to good use, it just can't be invested in the US because any US investment has to be judged with a 35% off the top penalty associated with it. That makes investments for that offshore cash much more compelling offshore, than in the US. I know Dems hate it, but I'd take the 5% and bring all the offshore cash home. There is a proposal in the Senate to use the 5% all on infrastructure.

            "let's talk about that"

            by VClib on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:29:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I wouldn't. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              unfangus, dizzydean
              I know Dems hate it, but I'd take the 5% and bring all the offshore cash home. There is a proposal in the Senate to use the 5% all on infrastructure.
              I have to leave so I'll make this brief and probably lose some useful nuance.

              Corporations are chartered by the State.  They have no legitimate political interests, and must conform to the dictates of the State.

              Multinational corporations trying to get special tax preference need to be slapped down hard.  The right thing to do is to pass a law saying something like:

              Any multinational corporation is allowed to keep 1 year worth of operating profit from foreign subsidiaries in the country of that subsidiary.  All other funds must be repatriated no later than the close of the fiscal year after they were earned.

              -7.75 -4.67

              "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

              There are no Christians in foxholes.

              by Odysseus on Thu May 01, 2014 at 07:17:17 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Od - your proposed law makes no sense (0+ / 0-)

                There are many times when a foreign subsidiary needs many years worth of operating profits to invest in a new plant or product.

                I would like to see the US follow nearly all the other countries in the G20 and stop trying to collect taxes on products made and sold outside the US. Currently having a home office in the US is a economic disadvantage. We should be encouraging companies to have their headquarters in the US, not the opposite. We are starting to see what I think will be an accelerating trend, companies moving their legal corporate headquarters offshore.

                "let's talk about that"

                by VClib on Thu May 01, 2014 at 03:54:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Of course it makes sense. (0+ / 0-)

                  I gave you the source of authority, and all actions for that authority to take.

                  Multinational corporations are trying to have their cake and eat it too.  Either borders mean something, or they don't.

                  If borders mean things, then governments are quite within their bounds to force domestic action.  You try living outside of the borders of the US and not paying taxes on personal income.  Ask UBS how well that works out.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander.  If individuals can't randomly hide money, why should corporations be allowed to?

                  -7.75 -4.67

                  "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

                  There are no Christians in foxholes.

                  by Odysseus on Thu May 01, 2014 at 06:25:20 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The tax code for individuals and corporations (0+ / 0-)

                    have never been the same, and for good reasons. They have never had the same rules or the same tax rates. Individuals aren't a business and corporations are individuals. If a person has a business they have the option of having it taxed as a corporation or as an individual, whichever is best for them. There is no logical reason for corporations and individuals to have the same tax code whatsoever. No G20 country taxes corporations using the same tax code as the one they use for individuals.

                    Your idea makes no sense.  

                    "let's talk about that"

                    by VClib on Thu May 01, 2014 at 06:30:54 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Interestingly, Ebay decided to take a tax hit on.. (5+ / 0-)

          ..repatriating 9B, paying 3B in taxes, just this week.

          The BOD must have had a good reason why it approved the move.

          Dividend?  Acquisition?  

          Why not borrow instead of repatriating.

          Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

          by PatriciaVa on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:34:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Very good question? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            davidincleveland

            I wonder if eBay has the same offshore investment opportunities as some of the other tech companies? Maybe combined with a compelling domestic opportunity as you suggest?

            "let's talk about that"

            by VClib on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 08:02:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  During my run, I thought of something... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              VClib

              And it's so obvious.

              Ebay may have an inkling that a foreign buyer may be want to buy it.

              What better way to thwart that than repatriating its overseas cash, thereby neutralizing one of the arguments for a buyout from a foreign purchaser.

              It can also thwart a buyout from a US-based firm that wanted to use the excess cash Ebay has on its balance sheet.

              Can't think of a reason other than that.

              Bad for Ebay shareholders.

              Very good for Ebay management.

              Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

              by PatriciaVa on Thu May 01, 2014 at 09:40:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Interesting thought (0+ / 0-)

                You could be right. I would think this action will be a hot topic with analysts who follow eBay and we should be able to read something with some answers as eBay files more SEC reports and Wall St asks more questions.

                "let's talk about that"

                by VClib on Fri May 02, 2014 at 05:30:54 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  they can invest it overseas? (7+ / 0-)

      Most of the world economy is outside our borders.

    •  Subsidiaries (4+ / 0-)

      For example, Apple has a manufacturing plant in Ireland. They transfer the patent ownership to that plant, royalties paid to the patent owner are credited to the subsidiary. The subsidiary is in a country with low or no tax on IP royalties. Apple therefore pays low or no tax on any royalties resulting from their patents while they still own the patents.

      Ditto with profits. They use some accounting magic to make the US portion of the company make little to no official profit, while the subsidiaries in tax havens make lots of profit.

      The money isn't sitting in savings accounts, unusable, but rather is being funneled through these other entities, which then sell finished product to the parent company - so the finished products turn into a cost for the parent company.

      :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
      Can you help me make Green Planet Heroes happen?

      by radical simplicity on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:34:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sky Net - Apple can use the cash anywhere in the (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      davidincleveland, Bob Love

      world except the US, without paying any additional tax. For a company like Apple there are lots of opportunities outside the US. Compare that to taking a 35% haircut to bring the cash back and invest it in the US.

      "let's talk about that"

      by VClib on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 08:05:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Warren Buffet recently structured a... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    VClib, Justanothernyer, doc2

    .transaction to avoid 240M in taxes that he would otherwise have had to pay.

    Is Warren Buffet evil?

    I'm not making excuses for Apple.  But Apple does have an obligation to minimize its tax burden.

    On Monday, Pfizer (200B mkt value) announced that it would buy Astra, and would become a UK-domiciled company.

    What's driving the transaction?  About 1.1B in annual tax savings.

    Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

    by PatriciaVa on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 06:57:06 PM PDT

    •  By that logic, we should follow Cantor. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      quill, davidincleveland, falconer520

      Sorry, but if they are a US company, they need to pay their taxes, especially since they are taking advantage of the many services their state, local and federal governments provide for them to be profitable.

      To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

      by dizzydean on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:01:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  and by your logic (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Justanothernyer, VClib, Sparhawk, doc2, KMc

        Apple is "evil" as you put it, for taking advantage of the tax code the same way other corporations do? IOW, you are saying Apple is evil for doing something entirely legal and within the law?  BS. You don't like it, get the laws changed.

        And while you're at, for your own education, you might want to look into the tax laws of other countries - some of them require onshore cash for international companies that operate in their borders...

        You got a mighty broad brush and some thin paint there..

        "Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government" T. Jefferson

        by azureblue on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:09:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  As a public company Apple has a fiduciary duty (7+ / 0-)

        to minimize its world-wide taxes. That means it should take advantage of every legal tax strategy that lowers its overall tax payments. Apple has no legal, ethical, or moral obligation to pay more taxes to the US Treasury than the US Tax Code currently requires. If Congress was smart they would take the 5% and allow Apple and others to bring the money back to the US. 5% of Trillions is a lot more than 0% of Trillions. None of that money will ever come back to the US with a 35% tax rate.

        If you don't like the current tax laws, work to change them.

        Apple, like every other corporation in the US makes NO CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS. It's been illegal for more than a century as The Tillman Act is still in full force and effect. I wrote a diary about it last week.  As your link clearly states the amounts shown are contributions from people who work at Apple, either directly or through Apple's PAC. No corporate cash is part of that number and therefore they ARE NOT Apple campaign contributions and you should never reference them in that manner. It implies an illegal act.

        "let's talk about that"

        by VClib on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:18:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Re (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        doc2, nextstep
        Sorry, but if they are a US company, they need to pay their taxes, especially since they are taking advantage of the many services their state, local and federal governments provide for them to be profitable.
        They are paying their taxes.

        If you want them to pay more than they legally owe, feel free to practice what you preach and donate your tax return to the government.

        (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
        Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

        by Sparhawk on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:30:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't get a tax return. What part of tax (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mickT, NXNW, unfangus

          avoidance due to the ability to take advantage of overseas laws that the rest f us cannot plus that whole civic duty thing do you not understand?

          To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

          by dizzydean on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:33:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If you want to transfer money (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sparhawk

            overseas and invest it but leave the money there for a while, you won't owe US taxes until you repatriate the money. So go ahead and send your money overseas, but pay taxes here anyhow, even if there is no reason to. That's what you think Apple should do, so do it yourself. Set an example.

      •  They are paying the taxes they owe, they are (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        VClib, Sky Net

        just organizing their business to maximize after tax profit.

        They are no more evil than a dual income couple without plans to have children buying a house with a mortgage and deducting the interest and property tax on their tax return - or a person saving for retirement through an IRA or 401 K.

        The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

        by nextstep on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 08:57:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  how about not evil, but thieves and liars (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sviscusi, dizzydean, unfangus

      frauds and cheats....how about any of a million other names we can waste time parsing, in all the world's languages, but the fact remains we as tax payers are supporting all the structures used by apple to flourish and they need to pay their share of taxes, however they and every other big corp is avoiding that, amounting to economic warfare against the rest of the citizens of the world also cheated and manipulated by them.

      $26-50 Trillion from the world's economies. Hidden, shell gamed around. Call it what you like.

      That was a number bandied about in a recent article.

      War is what that theft is. Parse that all you want. have fun.

      This machine kills Fascists.

      by KenBee on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 10:48:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Apple makes a lot of money outside of the US (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sky Net, VClib, doc2, KMc, unfangus

    The laws are such that bringing that money back would cause it to be taxed at a pretty high rate. Instead, it is mostly reinvested into parts and infrastructure.

    If Apple just brought the money back and let it be taxed, the shareholders would revolt and replace the board. The laws have to make it easier for repatriation to happen.

    Note that Apple's been building all its new infrastructure inside the US -- data centers powered by solar farms and fuel cells, for instance. Tim Cook, who worked in a factory in his youth, has stated he wants to repatriate production, and he's doing it bit by bit. The biggest deal is a new sapphire plant in Arizona. This is extremely high-tech, and there's nothing like it anywhere else in the world. Apple is also now assembling its top-of-the-line Mac Pro entirely in the US.

    TL;DR they're moving in the right direction.

    •  I don't buy this line (6+ / 0-)

      That $130 billion is cash on hand--not money being reinvested into infrastructure.  Also, see my links on how they're weaseling out of paying taxes elsewhere.  

      I hate the argument "the tax rate is pretty high"--it ain't.  We're in line with other OECD countries--Apple is just playing a game, that countries like Ireland are aiding and abetting.  In the meantime, as they do this, the tax burden continues to shift to payroll workers.

      See here for more:  http://www.cbpp.org/...

      To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

      by dizzydean on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:10:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  re tax rate & OECD: (6+ / 0-)

        The repatriation would be marginal income, so you look to the marginal rate of 35% rather than the effective rate of 20% or whatever it is.

      •  Most of Apple's business is outside the US (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        VClib, johnny wurster, Sparhawk, doc2, KMc

        They're expanding their retail operation outside the US like crazy. Costs a lot of money. Is that evil?

        They buy parts and pay workers overseas. Is that wrong?

        They generally don't buy plants but spend money buying the manufacturing equipment. It's hugely expensive. The cash allows them to move fast and to commit their suppliers.

        Much of the "cash on hand" is actually locked up in various types of financial instruments, short-, medium- and long-term.

        They're trying to grow their brand band globally. Is that evil?

      •  You obviously think since you are repeating (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        johnny wurster, nextstep, VClib, Bob Love

        it over and over that money can only be invested here in the good ol USA. Turns out there are other countries in the world, places where Apple would like to invest. Look at Google Maps, across either the Atlantic or Pacific Oceans. Those land masses are Europe and Asia (and Africa). Those continents have countries, just like America!

  •  And Apple does pay plenty compared to others... (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    johnny wurster, VClib, Sparhawk, doc2, KMc

    In 2012...

    In its statement, Apple said it paid “an enormous amount of taxes” to local, state and federal governments. "In fiscal 2012 we paid $6 billion in federal corporate income taxes, which is 1 out of every 40 dollars in corporate income taxes collected by the U.S. government," it said.
    •  This is how ridiculous diaries like this are (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      doc2, nextstep, VClib

      And how uninformed.

      Apple pays 1/40 of all corporate income taxes in the country, so they must be evil. Got it.

      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

      by Sparhawk on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:32:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  High Praise...look at the overall picture (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dizzydean
      At the same time, big companies are shouldering a smaller part of the overall tax burden than in the past. As a percentage of federal tax revenue, corporate taxes have fallen to 9 percent from more than 30 percent in the 1950s. Overall, corporations paid about $242 billion in federal taxes in 2012, compared to $1.1 trillion taxes paid by individual taxpayers. Mr. Coburn said that he favors closing loopholes and eliminating tax breaks even as the overall rate is lowered. “An individual’s or corporation’s tax rate shouldn’t be dependent on their ability to hire a tax lobbyist,” he said in a statement. “We would be better off with a code that eliminated these loopholes so we can lower rates for both corporations and individuals.”
      here
  •  Apple evil? You are confused. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Justanothernyer, VClib, KMc

    It is rather bizarre that you would use the term evil in this way.  Evil is a very different concept than you seem to think it is.  

    Apple does what it decides is in its, and by its, I mean it's shareholders, interest.  Apple works within the legal framework that exists, as it ought to.  If you bother to learn, Apple is not one of those companies that expends a huge amount of effort lobbying to keep that framework as it is, it just operates within it.  I'd save your wrath for those companies that spend way more time effort and money distorting the political system to buy the government in order to profit while plundering the environment and it's people.

    So that you also understand, the profits that Apple keeps offshore is profit made on sales made overseas, on products made overseas.  I'm not sure I follow why it should pay tax on those profits (and you don't ever pay tax on revenue, so the $170B number is irrelevant) here.  You could make an argument that it should pay tax someplace with a higher tax rate, but I don't see why it should pay that tax here, nor why not doing so makes it evil.

    And just so we understand, please tell me about the conditions in the facility where the computer you submitted this diary was made.  I suspect it is somewhat less optimum, and the environmental impact of making it worse, that a typical Apple product.

    Certainly from our standpoint, this gives us a sense of momentum -- when the United States has accolades tossed its way, rather than shoes. - PJ Crowley

    by nsfbr on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:08:32 PM PDT

    •  See my link above (0+ / 0-)

      Apple has spent $16 million lobbying.  As for evil, what you imply is pretty weak tea.  Screwing employees, using sweatshops with awful working conditions overseas, ruining the environment, while raking in huge profits on which they do their utmost to pay no taxes is pretty fucking evil to me.  

      To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

      by dizzydean on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:20:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What Microsoft learned was that if you don't (5+ / 0-)

        have a very strong presence in DC you lose. Every other tech company took notice. Lobbying is a constitutionally protected right and Congress can make or break any company or industry or dramatically change its economics. The fact that Apple is spending $16 million in DC is just smart business.

        "let's talk about that"

        by VClib on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:24:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  "If you are not at the table, you are on the menu" (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          VClib, dizzydean, itsjim

          When Congress was looking for additional tax revenue for ACA, taxing Tanning Salons was added.  The tanning salon industry was not making their political contributions and lobbying large enough to protect themselves.

          The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

          by nextstep on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 09:07:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Don't think so (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sky Net, VClib, nsfbr, doc2, KMc

        Now you're just making it up.

        Apple has the best record in China for monitoring working conditions inside its plans as well as the plants of its suppliers.

        They also pay the best.

        They also just instituted a 100 percent product recycling program.

        They also build solar to power their data centers.

        Show me the evil.

  •  Watch this space (6+ / 0-)

    The OECD and G20 are working on these issues.  It's a global problem that requires a global solution.  Demonizing companies for following their interests within the law isn't going to help.  The rules just need to change.

    Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre.

    by Sky Net on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:15:21 PM PDT

  •  No one can be called evil... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    VClib, PatriciaVa, doc2

    ...merely for following their own nation's tax laws.

    Take it up with Congress if you don't like it.

    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

    by Sparhawk on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:23:32 PM PDT

  •  Oh man. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    johnny wurster, VClib

    We're supposed to be the smart guys, remember?

  •  Sweatshops (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    doc2

    You should know that the link you posted on Apple's use of sweatshops is based on an NPR story by Mike Daisey who later was forced to admit he'd made the whole thing up.

    Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre.

    by Sky Net on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:41:56 PM PDT

    •  No, not really (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dizzydean

      Mike Daisey did what most front-page journalists for the WP and NYT do on a daily basis. He sensationalized. The fact that Foxconn is a shithole to work at is not in doubt.

      As is reported here.

      I'm sure I can bring up many other sources of the terrible working conditions in China, but I'm sure you will find some word wrong in them to prove them 'LIES', thus proving that that workers are in China are treated like kings and queens.

      •  Uh, no (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        doc2

        He didn't "sensationalize", he just made up a bunch of stuff that never happened.  NPR didn't issue a retraction and devote an entire show to revealing the fraud because he sensationalized a little.  If you're going to criticize Apple, use a source that wasn't exposed as a fraud.  That's not rocket science.

        Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre.

        by Sky Net on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 11:03:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Always said that apple was evil! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dizzydean

    I like open source android phones and tablets myself!

    Never underestimate stupid. Stupid is how reTHUGlicans win!

    by Mannie on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 07:53:07 PM PDT

  •  Apple isn't evil, the rules at times are. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    VClib, doc2, dizzydean, TwoSolitudes

    First, I understand the immediate knee jerk that Apple offshores so much production and money that they should take blame for their action.

    There are some issues, especially issues of external job forces (like FoxConn) where problems have happened..

    And Apple deserves complaints over those issues.

    But it is superficial to simply say: they are the problem.  Apple as a company is doing everything they can under the law to maximize their own profits.   We can say what we want about that, but in the end it is the law that empowers this decision.

    Apple could obviously pay more in taxes.  But they are under no obligation to do so under the law.

    Apple could put more jobs domestically, but again, as it is current there is no real incentive for them to do so.

    The problem is that Republicans have structured the tax code to not only encourage this behavior but to discourage responsible investment.

    This is the issue.  

    When you move for guidance that says 'no regulation is best' you end up with a situation that actively encourages it.   Should apple move away from it now, their cost would increase drastically.  

    We have invented a cycle that kills jobs, depresses wages and encourages corporate entities to engage.

    If you think every other company in America isn't feeling the same pressures and acting much the same you're wrong.

    If you wish to boycott Apple over the way they have handled foreign labor, or their lack of opening more jobs in the US, that's fine.. but you also need to mention Apple is opening up data centers in the US at a pretty aggressive clip.

    Both Apple & Microsoft have put serious commitments into US based data structure growth, and that's good for everyone.

    So, you can say they aren't doing enough - and more directly you can bash the laws that make this the standard - but I don't know if you can use terminology like 'they are EVIL' because I have a hard time making that leap.

    Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

    by Chris Reeves on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 08:01:33 PM PDT

    •  This (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tmservo433
      Apple could obviously pay more in taxes.  But they are under no obligation to do so under the law.

      Apple could put more jobs domestically, but again, as it is current there is no real incentive for them to do so.

      The problem is that Republicans have structured the tax code to not only encourage this behavior but to discourage responsible investment.

      This is the issue.  

      Apple is a company not a person. Companies will follow the path of least resistance to maximum profits, like water flowing down a hill. Some guilt pressure may have a small impact, but to make a change you need to change the rules under which they operate.

      Apple is not evil. It is not capable of emotions.

      The current regulatory environment is harmful and in the long term counterproductive to a healthy nation. Those that know this and do nothing to change it are the evil ones.

      Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects. Lester B. Pearson

      by TwoSolitudes on Thu May 01, 2014 at 07:46:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Is Apple or is the System. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    VClib, doc2

    If I was Apple why wouldn't I use every legal means to lower my tax bill. I do it now on personal taxes. No I don't have over seas income that I leave there, but I take advantage of every possible legal tax avoidance deduction I can.

    You want Apple to pay more they way they are taxed needs to change.

    Frankly, I’m getting more than a little tired of hearing from angry America. I’m also less than fond of knee-jerk America. And when you combine the two with the Internet, you too often get stupid America, which is really annoying.

    by jsfox on Wed Apr 30, 2014 at 09:09:35 PM PDT

  •  It is so easy to opt out of paying taxes (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    falconer520, dizzydean

    Is it illegal? No.

    Is it bad business? Yes.

    Apple was Born in the USA. The founding fathers of the company grew up here, were educated here and used the infrastructure of the USA to build the company. This didn't happen by accident. There was a time when we invested deeply in our infrastructure.

    Infrastructure (everything from roads & bridges to universities to public safety) isn't free. It requires funding. When corporations use every loophole to avoid paying tax they aren't doing anything illegal. But they are starving the goose that lays the golden eggs. That isn't good business.

    Short changing the system that has enabled so much innovation, so much profit seems silly to me. But I'm one of the people that thinks the line "greed is good" is hogwash.

  •  corporations are evil (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    melfunction, Krush, dizzydean

    apple is a corporation, and a successful one at that, but i haven't seen evidence that it's relatively more evil than other analogous tech corporations.

  •  apple is a funny company (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    falconer520, dizzydean

    they rip off corporations to fund themselves

    they are their own cult

    and yeah they are fucking laughing at American consumers

    but who doesn't anymore. Not that I approve of that crap but you know I am a sociopath now so I just get these evilous people

  •  Money is the root of all evil. (0+ / 0-)

    Eliminate it!

    Dick Cheney 2/14/10: "I was a big supporter of waterboarding"

    by Bob Love on Thu May 01, 2014 at 12:53:49 AM PDT

  •  This wouldn't be possible without the active (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wayoutinthestix, dizzydean

    collaboration of Democratic and Republican Congress people and Presidents.
       Keep in mind, Apple's behavior is legal because our government is corrupt.

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