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Swiss voters resoundingly rejected on Sunday a proposed minimum wage that would have been the world’s highest, a move widely seen as reflecting an aversion to state intervention in the liberal economic policies that are the bedrock of Switzerland’s prosperity.

Trade unions had sought a minimum hourly wage of 22 Swiss francs, or $24.65, in what they said was an effort to ensure fair salaries for workers in the country’s lowest-paid sectors, such as retail and personal services. Switzerland currently has no national minimum wage.

The proposed rate — considerably higher than elsewhere in Europe and well above the $10.10 sought by President Obama in the United States — found little support in a national referendum, with 76.3 percent opposed, according to initial results released by the government.

Switzerland, as one of the world’s most prosperous countries and home to major international banks and hedge funds, as well as big chemical, pharmaceutical and machinery companies, might seem to be an unlikely venue for a debate on wage disparity. But unions argued that many people in the lowest-paying sectors of the economy struggle to make ends meet because their wages have not kept up with a cost of living that is one of the highest in the world.

Seeing this, I truly feel that we are following the right strategy by starting in Blue cities and states with the push to $15. It has to be incremental or it won't fly. Even here in SF, where the min wage is just shy of $11, I think a vote to push it to $15 in one fell swoop will be close.

Seattle is the one to watch. I'm hopeful.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (14+ / 0-)

    New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

    by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 01:30:16 PM PDT

  •  raising the minimum wage is good, but (4+ / 0-)

    if it is raised to a high enough level, wouldn't that trigger inflation and cause businesses to leave an area? Not sure at what point that would occur, but I've heard some people advocate $25/hr, and that seems like it would be counterproductive in our current system.

    Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

    by AaronInSanDiego on Sun May 18, 2014 at 01:38:49 PM PDT

    •  $25 never will and shouldn't happen. (0+ / 0-)

      You are right, most that would eaten by price increases. That's why $15 has to be incremental to see how it is affecting employment, and not just in boom cities such as Seattle and SF, which can absorb these increases a lot easier than say, someone in Des Moines.

      New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

      by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 01:58:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Sheesh (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ZenTrainer, No Exit, llywrch

      How about tying a maximum wage to the minimum wage so that if you wanted to pay your CEO 3 million a year the minimum wage would be 10% or $300,00 a year.

      Wouldn't you say $25/HR is an awful good deal compared to the fairer $144.23/ HR ?

      "la vida no vale nada un lugar solita" "The Limits of Control Jim Jarmusch

      by rktect on Sun May 18, 2014 at 02:21:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not going to happen. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sparhawk

        New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

        by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 02:30:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  if corps are limited to pay their CEOs 10x (4+ / 0-)

        the wage of their last payed employees, that won't lead to wages of $144/hr. CEOs will the be compensated with means other than salaries, while being given $200k salaries officially.

        Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

        by AaronInSanDiego on Sun May 18, 2014 at 02:37:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not if you define (5+ / 0-)

          CEO "total compensation" as salary
          PLUS use of a company car
          PLUS all actuarial value of severance package ('golden parachute")
          PLUS expense account
          PLUS pension payments
          PLUS vested stock options (with future exercise and sale ("cashing out") of options recaptured for redistribution to employees by the SEC)
          PLUS use of the company jet calculated on a per hour basis
          PLUS face value (not cash value) of single-premium or multi-premium "key man" life insurance paid for by corporate funds
          PLUS premiums paid by company for platinum "Cadillac" helath insurance plans
          PLUS membership dues and fees in private clubs, groups and organizations that said CEO claims as deductions for "business purposes" (Davos Gathering, ALEC, US Chamber of Commerce, etc.)
          PLUS per diem allowance for just walking around
          PLUS value of paid vacations
          PLUS cost of sending CEO to "business conferences", "extension courses", The Dick Cheney Shotgun Fest, etc.
          PLUS the cost of flying 1st class OR business class instead of coach
          PLUS the cost per night of out of town lodging that is higher than the MEDIAN cost of lodging in a 5 mile radius of the CEO's lodging
          PLUS the cost of executive gym, spa and personal trainer fees
          PLUS the cost of the company loan so the CEO can buy his mansion (and it's damn near always a "his" not a "her"), second, third or fourth home, condo, "lake place", or lodge divided by the number of years the mortgage is for. Same division used if the company loan is for the down payment to purchase real estate.

          There's more of course (the CEO dodge list is a long one) but put all THESE in with mere salary and then have the SEC rule that for any publicly traded company the highest compensated (using the above list for starters) employee cannot have total compensation more than 50 X (or 10x, or 25x or something) the lowest compensated.
          This should include "independent contractors" and employees of "contracted services". So, if MegaBucks Inc. wants to pay the CEO total compensation of X, then Pablo and Rochelle, who work for CleanBuildingsR US and come in every night at MegaBucks Global HQ to dust, empty trashcans and sharpen pencils, each of them are going to get total compensation of X divided by 50.

          The company can still pay their CEO and everyone else whatever they want, but everyone comes along for the boom if things go well.

          It could be done.

          Shalom.

          "God has given wine to gladden the hearts of people." Psalm 104:15

          by WineRev on Sun May 18, 2014 at 03:06:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  perhaps. (2+ / 0-)

            I think if the restrictions are seen to be too severe, that would lead to companies incorporating elsewhere. That's not too say there shouldn't be any restrictions. But I also don't think it will lead to minimum wages several times higher than the current average income.

            Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

            by AaronInSanDiego on Sun May 18, 2014 at 03:26:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Aaron, don't engage them on things that will (0+ / 0-)

              never happen. It encourages them.

              New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

              by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:06:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Companies could always pay their CEO's less (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              No Exit

              as well as their employees. If they can't get a CEO who will work for less than ten times the minimum wage then try promoting a supervisor and see what happens.

              Lets take a construction company doing public bidding as an example. Lets say the  CEO expects to make $.10 for every dollar of profit he makes the company and the guys doing the work want a penny. If things are good and the CEO thinks he should get a dollar for a dollar then the employees get a dime.

              Lets say its a small company that uses filed sub bids and subcontracts all but one or two trades that they restrict to themselves and the company does $500,000 a month in profit on a gross of 5 million/mo.

              The CEO gets $50 grand a month and the employees take home 5k a month ($31.25/HR take home plus benefits) or 60 k a year.

              For a book store maybe the CEO takes home $16,160/mo and the employees make $10.10/HR

              "la vida no vale nada un lugar solita" "The Limits of Control Jim Jarmusch

              by rktect on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:13:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  attended a sporting event in the company (0+ / 0-)

            skybox? bam.

            attended a sporting event in another company's skybox? bam.

            To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

            by UntimelyRippd on Sun May 18, 2014 at 08:12:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  given that we're still at very low inflation (3+ / 0-)

      nd given that deflation or persistent low inflation is worse than moderate inflation, i don;t see that it would be a drawback to boost inflation with wages. it'd be better than boosting inflation due to rising energy costs, real estate bubbles, or insurance premium highway robbery.

    •  This argument is why (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tardis10

      it will not be done piecemeal.  Every time someone advocates a local tax/fee/wage increase the go-to argument is ALWAYS "We'll end up losing business."
      It never matters how high the increase is projected to be, a single penny a year will bring out the whiners.

      The minimum wage will be increased by the Federal government.  There may be small efforts here and there but they will remain isolated.

      "Our problem is not that the glass is half empty or half full, but that the 1% claims that it is their glass." ---Stolen from a post on Daily Kos

      by jestbill on Sun May 18, 2014 at 03:18:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Incremental and tied to the rate of inflation (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AlexDrew, jayden, a2nite

    at each step is the way to go.  Everything gets done in small steps it seems, except for pronouncing everything that happens from now to 2016 as an Obama scandal.

    Building a better America with activism, cooperation, ingenuity and snacks.

    by judyms9 on Sun May 18, 2014 at 01:45:32 PM PDT

  •  Amazingly, that NYT article you linked to does (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Just Bob, Roadbed Guy, AlexDrew

    not say what, if anything, is the current Swiss minimum wage.

    This page -- http://www.therichest.com/... -- says that Switzerland has the 10th highest minimum wage in the world at $15,457.
    (But the text says there is no actual overall minimum wage for the whole country, but the above number is an average of collective bargaining agreements, or something.)

    $15,457 a year works out to about $7.50/hour, so it's currently not really that high.

    •  Scroll down to Switzerland. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Timaeus

      New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

      by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 02:00:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  According to Wikipedia (maybe your link too, (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AlexDrew, Timaeus, wu ming, Sparhawk

      but it's too cumbersome) Australia has the highest minimum wage at between $16 & 17 /hour.

      Guess you can afford that when you're powering your economy by selling coal to China . . .  

      •  A lot of Kossacks leave out that detail (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timaeus

        when they bring the Aussie min wage.

        New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

        by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 02:03:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Do you suppose that selling coal is more (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          happymisanthropy

          profitable than selling nothing, which is how the US subsidizes its plutocracy, ie., by the manipulation of financial markets and the creation of absurd debt instruments?

          To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

          by UntimelyRippd on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:51:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

            •  The point is that Australia's minimum wage (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timaeus

              doesn't actually depend on Australia exporting coal.

              It depends on nothing more than deciding that the bottom half of their economic society are going to receive a substantial share of whatever their economy produces, at the general expense of the wealthiest members of their society.

              To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

              by UntimelyRippd on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:30:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Link? (0+ / 0-)
            which is how the US subsidizes its plutocracy

            New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

            by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:29:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Link to what? (0+ / 0-)

              Documentation of the fact that we "export" financial services, and that our financial elites have more money than anybody has ever had ever in the history of the world?

              Buzz off, clowny, before you learn something that dissonds your cognition.

              To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

              by UntimelyRippd on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:32:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That it subsidizes the plutocrats. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Timaeus, NedSparks

                reality based community remember. You can't make claims without evidence. Kos 101. We are not all as hella smart as you. Help me out with a link.

                New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

                by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:36:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Since they contribute nothing, every nickel (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  happymisanthropy

                  that ends up in their hands is a subsidy -- and man, a whole lotta nickels end up in their hands.

                  To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

                  by UntimelyRippd on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:37:17 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  That's what I figured, more deep thoughts (0+ / 0-)

                    from the Rippd one.

                    Thanks.

                    I'm going to meet my parents at Weird Fish for dinner. Good night.

                    New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

                    by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:43:41 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  Not like Switzerland, powering its economy by (0+ / 0-)

        playing middle man to financial transactions.

        To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

        by UntimelyRippd on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:49:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  from what I've read, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timaeus

        coal exports are about $10 billion per year, which is about 4% of total exports, and China as of 2008 accounted for about 10% of that.

        Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

        by AaronInSanDiego on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:13:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  sorry, misread. (0+ / 0-)

          The number I read was quarterly, not annual. It's more like $40bn per year, not $10bn.

          Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

          by AaronInSanDiego on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:21:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sure, that's only $2,000 per person (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AaronInSanDiego, llywrch

            but still, properly "invested" it could conceivably provide a foundation for a significant increase in the minimum wage.

            And about the percentage of coal exports going to China they've been rapidly ramping up:

            Coal exports to China defy doomsayers

            MARK COULTAN THE AUSTRALIAN JANUARY 20, 2014 10:53AM
            Print
            Save for later
            NEW export data shows China's demand for coal has increased significantly over the last financial year, defying predictions that exports will fall as China undertakes an energy switch driven by environmental concerns.

            New figures supplies by Coal Services show exports from NSW to China continuing to rapidly increase.

            Last financial year NSW exports to China jumped by more than 30 per cent to 31 million tonnes. In 2007-08, only 1.1 per cent of NSW coal exports were going to China, while last year it accounted for 20 per cent.

            •  yes, but Australia is already (0+ / 0-)

              doing better than we are on the minimum wage, social welfare programs, and inequality. I'm not sure the coal exports to China are the critical factor that allows them to do that.

              Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

              by AaronInSanDiego on Sun May 18, 2014 at 06:10:21 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  OK, coal exports to everywheres then if (0+ / 0-)

                the "to China" thing isn't entirely accurate/comprehensive.  Well that coupled with  iron ore exports, etc.

                Essentially, it's what Canada does as well, i.e., they support social welfare on resource extraction.   One can probably lump Norway in there as well.  

                For better or worse.

                In event, it's probably an approach that only can be made to work by countries with relatively small populations.

    •  A far more complete (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Timaeus

      picture of Swiss thinking on this is here if you wish to understand it a bit better.
      http://www.swissinfo.ch/...

      The Swiss have managed to keep runaway greed in a kind of check for centuries while at the same time hoarding wealth from everywhere.Paradoxical,you bet.

      "George RR Martin is not your bitch" ~~ Neil Gaiman

      by tardis10 on Sun May 18, 2014 at 02:42:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  it's impossible to compare other countries' (6+ / 0-)

      minimum wage to that of the US, because most countries have real social welfare systems.

      Swiss basic health care premium is capped at 8% of income, for example (there's also a complex scheme of deductibles & whatnot that are difficult to explain quickly).

      Parents working half-time at minimum wage will earn enough to qualify for the mandated child allowance, about $2500/year for under 16, and $3200/year for children 16 to 25 if they're in school. Generally, that allowance is paid by the employer.

      University tuition is paltry (under $2K per year at 12 of the 14 universities).

      For non-university-bound students, there's an apprenticeship program whereby 16-year-olds and up attend school and are paid while being trained for careers -- in contrast to the US system, where 16-year-olds do work of dubious long-term value while trying to save enough money to pay for the costs of a 2-year tech-training program.

      etc.

      To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

      by UntimelyRippd on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:49:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Nobody ever accused the Swiss . . . (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, Timaeus

    . . . of being generous.

  •  The Swiss reliance on (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AlexDrew, Timaeus

    collective bargaining,strong trade unions and social democracy to keep income inequality and labor exploitation under control is being mightily tested in these days of neoliberalism & open borders. So far,the Swiss have said no to a guaranteed minimum income,yes and no to referendums regarding executive pay and yes to keeping their borders relatively tight. Quite a dynamic tension between greed and liberalism at play.

    "George RR Martin is not your bitch" ~~ Neil Gaiman

    by tardis10 on Sun May 18, 2014 at 02:18:15 PM PDT

    •  Finely balanced voters (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tardis10, llywrch

      The left has been unsuccessful in pushing new benefits and mandates (like the 1:12 Initiative), but consistently very successful in fighting any roll-back of the social safety-net.
      Swiss voters also approved the Carpetbagger Initiative, which in effect limits excessive executive compensation.  The poster-boy for that initiative, Daniel Vasella, was personally so aggrieved that the initiative succeeded that he is moving to the US (you're welcome).  That initiative was pushed more or less single-handedly by a Swiss businessman.
      The vote limiting immigration is much more complex than the headline, and was supported by a strong leftist contingent because it was essentially a vote against unbridled economic expansion and pouring concrete.  We're voting on another, more radical initiative (Ecopop) later in the year or next year.
      And yesterday, on the same day the Minimum Wage Initiative failed, the vote to oppose the purchase of 22 new fighter jets for US$3.5b succeeded - so a leftist success.

      γνωθι σεαυτόν

      by halef on Sun May 18, 2014 at 10:55:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Swiss aren't that progressive (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Johnny Q

    The total that supported the referendum roughly matches the total that voted Social Democrat or Green in the last federal election. The referendum wasn't going anywhere.

  •  More nonsense from the neo liberal banker (4+ / 0-)

    I really want the wall Street bankers that used to be Republicans to go back to being Republicans. You all ruined the Democratic party.

    I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

    by jbou on Sun May 18, 2014 at 02:33:06 PM PDT

    •  what is it that you think is nonsense? n/t (0+ / 0-)

      Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

      by AaronInSanDiego on Sun May 18, 2014 at 02:40:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That the Swiss minimum wage... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tardis10, Johnny Q

        has any effect on the United States minimum wage. This is the diarist doing his business first bullshit he always does. It's either that or another diary about Hillary Clinton.

        I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

        by jbou on Sun May 18, 2014 at 02:48:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I support an incremental $15 min wage. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timaeus

          How is that neoliberal.

          Also, without employers, there are no employees.

          Balance jbou. Balance. Do you pay your employees $15hr?

          New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

          by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:11:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Imbalance (0+ / 0-)

            Considering how imbalanced the economic situation in this country has become it's illogical for us on the side that's getting the short end of things to give a flying fuck about what the neo liberal third way Democrats think or care about. They're the reason we are in this mess to begin with.

            If I had employees I'd pay them what I could while making a decent profit. Problem is that businesses look at labor as a problem they have yet to solve. It's not a partnership workers are in with businesses it's a fight for what you can get, because we see businesses move their operations to where the labor is cheapest and where they can get away with breaking laws that our country wouldn't put up with, all while they want to sell their goods and services in our regulated markets using the infrastructure our tax dollars built. Fuck them and fuck anyone who defends them.

            I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

            by jbou on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:24:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Stop spending so much time on Dkos, write a (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timaeus, bepanda, Sparhawk

              business plan and start a business. Good luck to you. You are too angry to engage in debate with. I made my choices and I am happy with them. I will gladly pay an effective tax rate of 50% plus give 10% to charity. Beyond that, I owe you shit. If that makes me a neoliberal, so be it

              New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

              by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:40:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You're part of the problem... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                UntimelyRippd

                If you actually think it's as simple as writing a business plan.  

                I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                by jbou on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:45:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Business plan, shmizness plan. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jbou

                  What you need to do is buy the Clippers. Then you can give all those players houses and cars and money, instead of just paying them minimum wage!

                  To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

                  by UntimelyRippd on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:00:09 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I don't think its that simple. It is not easy to (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Timaeus, Sparhawk

                  make a payroll. But apparently it is easy for small businesses to pay $15hr, according to a lot of Kossacks.

                  Start a business jbou, or support pols that make it easy to do so.

                  No employees without employers.

                  New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

                  by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:22:10 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No employers without customers (0+ / 0-)

                    And the customer comes first. When you still have 2.5 million people not working then you have 2.5 million less consumers and that doesn't even take into account the people working less hours for less pay. Those folks aren't consuming like they used to. Businesses have adjusted to the drop in consumption but the people who suffer get very little help and the benefits they can get have been cut. If your side doesn't want to provide for the less fortunate then the less fortunate will seek help through illegal means. So I'd keep an eye on my wallet, cellphone or any of your other possessions while out in public and if it continues to get worse petty crime will be the least of your worries.

                    I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                    by jbou on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:32:30 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Why hasn't crime exploded in the last six years? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Sparhawk

                      Abortion?

                      We will be fine. HRC will set the tone that the US is open for business.

                      But seriously, start a business jbou and pay your employees $20hr. Lead by example. Show my dry cleaner on 18th and Mission that he can do better.

                      New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

                      by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:39:48 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  But seriously? (0+ / 0-)

                        You're not serious and you can't be taken seriously and I don't know what small business you are talking about that couldn't absorb a minimum wage increase when they see the overall increase in customers due to people having more money in their pockets to spend. You really don't know that our economy is seventy five percent consumer driven?

                        I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                        by jbou on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:46:32 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Start a business in Des Moines Iowa and pay 15$ (0+ / 0-)

                          right out of the gate. SF would be tough, but the tech economy is booming and forcing out the middles class.

                          Try Des Moines or Cleveland.

                          Going to dinner now. Start on that B-plan. Set the example.

                          New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

                          by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:50:07 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  No... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            UntimelyRippd

                            You write the law so that employers with over one hundred employees have to increase their wages first and then you lower the number over time until every business is in compliance. You'd have time to see the increase in wages at say Walmart lead to more consumption in the towns and cities around them.

                            I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                            by jbou on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:55:45 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                •  Damn you're being abusive. (0+ / 0-)

                  Can't you just fucking TALK.

                  •  I have no patience for certain people... (0+ / 0-)

                    And I am not breaking any site rules and do you really want to be the guy defending this clown?

                    I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                    by jbou on Sun May 18, 2014 at 07:35:40 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Bullshit! It's a perfectly respectable and very (0+ / 0-)

                      bland and mild diary.  YOU are the one being the asshole with personal insults.

                      I assume you're drunk again. I hope you pass out soon.

                      I can't give you an HR, since I have "engaged" you, but I hope reasonable members will give you all the ones you need for another timeout.

                      It's really ugly to call that guy a "clown."  I suggest you're engaging in what is called "projection."  Look it up, genius.

                      •  Get over it (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        UntimelyRippd

                        I am not drunk nor do I have a drinking problem. The guy is a shallow thinking third way Democrat.  I'm bored with third way corporate politicians. These soulless shills are to blame for the economic mess this country faces.

                        I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                        by jbou on Sun May 18, 2014 at 07:46:06 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  Woof! Woof woof woof! (0+ / 0-)

                To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

                by UntimelyRippd on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:53:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  jbou is still butt hurt that I pointed the folly (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timaeus, bepanda

        of him/her saying that Sen. Warren is secretly raising money for a Prez bid.

        Pretty sad actually.

        New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

        by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:12:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Clueless (0+ / 0-)

          Warren is making her mark as a champion fundraiser for Democrats around the country and that is what a politician does when they have presidential aspirations. You are a pedantic literalist who thinks you're smarter than you are.

          I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

          by jbou on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:29:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's not what you said, and you know it. (0+ / 0-)

            LOL!!!

            New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

            by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:41:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I was first eligible to in the 1996 prez election. (0+ / 0-)

      Since then, I have voted for one Republican, Giuliani in 1997. Cleaned up the city.

      New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

      by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:14:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You voted for a scumbag (0+ / 0-)

        And legalized abortion is why crime went down in cities across the country. It wasn Rudy's fascism.

        I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

        by jbou on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:26:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Rudy was the man for the times. New York is (0+ / 0-)

          blue city, but even liberals don't like getting robbed and mugged.

          New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

          by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:43:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And Rudy had little to do with... (0+ / 0-)

            The crime rate dropping in nyc.  

            I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

            by jbou on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:48:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So funny that on a blog that looks to pols (0+ / 0-)

              for salvation that you never give credit to those you disagree with.

              New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

              by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:18:47 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I give credit where its due (0+ / 0-)

                It's shallow thinking that allows Rudy Giuliani to take credit for the drop in crime in nyc.

                I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                by jbou on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:21:17 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  So the question is, do you really buy the myth, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jbou

            or do you just like to spread it in order to create FUD?

            To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

            by UntimelyRippd on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:54:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Were you in the city from 93-99, when the city (0+ / 0-)

              really changed? Are you saying that Dinkins or Meesinger would have the same results? That it really didn't matter who the mayor was?

              It is not a myth. Easy to paper over now that the hard work has been done.

              New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

              by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:17:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Correlation does not imply Causation. (0+ / 0-)

                If that's a revelation to you, you've got a whole lot of hard work of your own to do. I'd advise you get started as soon as you can.

                To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

                by UntimelyRippd on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:19:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I have a real job, so I will leave that to you. (0+ / 0-)

                  Can't change the fact that Rudy is a god in NYC. Bill Clinton is god in the Dem party, as will Hillary. The 90's were amazing!!!!

                  On. Jan. 20th 2017, we will hit the re-set button. The Clintons know how to get things done. You break shit. Sen. Warren quietly follows the same plan. Break shit!!!

                  New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

                  by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:27:14 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Heh. (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    jbou, happymisanthropy, terrybuck

                    Good one. Right down to the smug, "I have a real job" dig, beloved of 1%ers everywhere.

                    Well, at least you've now fully revealed yourself for the ineffectual enemy of mankind that you are. I'd make a mental note, but really, who the hell cares what you've got to say?

                    I'll leave the final word for you, Alex P. Keaton.

                    To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

                    by UntimelyRippd on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:35:58 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Again with the insults. And what would... (0+ / 0-)

                    ...make you think others don't have jobs? I know you will say too much is being read into your comments, but you are blatantly condescending and I wonder why.

              •  Actually it was Mayor David Dinkins, through his (0+ / 0-)

                increase in the police population that began the decrease in New York City crime. Giuiliani and Bloomberg continued what Dinkins started....

                the decline in violent crime in New York was a little steeper in New York than some other big cities during the Giuiliani years, but it was part of a general nationwide trend. Philip Kafinitz, professor of sociology at the City University of New York Graduate Center, notes that the drop in the crime rate began under Giuliani's Democratic predecessor, David Dinkins, and has continued under Bloomberg, who has adopted "a kindler, gentler approach" than Giuliani. The present head of the NYPD, Raymond Kelly, served in the same post under Dinkins.
                 
                See here as well:
                Crime in New York City was high in the 1980s during the Mayor Edward I. Koch years, as the crack epidemic hit New York City, and peaked in 1990, the first year of Mayor David Dinkins' administration (1990–1993) and started its current run of lower crime rates. During the administrations of Mayor Rudolph Giuliani (1994–2001) and Mayor Michael Bloomberg (2002–present), the drop in crime accelerated. Although many commentators have suggested that the New York City Police Department's adoption of CompStat, broken windows policing, and other strategies during the administration of Rudolph Giuliani were responsible for the drop in crime, some studies argued that the dramatic reduction in crime was strongly correlated with the increases in the number of police officers that started under Mayor Dinkins and continued through the Giuliani administration.
        •  25 years after Roe v Wade (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AlexDrew

          abortion legalization was still causing crime to fall?

          Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

          by AaronInSanDiego on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:44:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

            Go read the research.

            I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

            by jbou on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:47:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Aaron, you are wasting your time. (0+ / 0-)

              Of course that makes zero sense. Don't bother. I'm still waiting on that list of Sen. Warren prez fundraisers that jbou promised.

              New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

              by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:33:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  is that the research by (0+ / 0-)

              Donahue and Levitt? Actually, I  think I remember a dkos post about this a while back. I've also read that reduction in lead exposure could be a factor.

              Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

              by AaronInSanDiego on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:35:43 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AaronInSanDiego

                Steven Levitt of the University of Chicago and John Donohue of Yale University revived discussion of this claim with their 2001 paper "The Impact of Legalized Abortion on Crime". Donohue and Levitt point to the fact that males aged 18 to 24 are most likely to commit crimes. Data indicates that crime in the United States started to decline in 1992. Donohue and Levitt suggest that the absence of unwanted children, following legalization in 1973, led to a reduction in crime 18 years later, starting in 1992 and dropping sharply in 1995. These would have been the peak crime-committing years of the unborn children.

                The authors argue that states that had abortion legalized earlier should have the earliest reductions in crime. Donohue and Levitt's study indicates that this indeed has happened: Alaska, California, Hawaii, New York, Oregon and Washington experienced steeper drops in crime, and had legalized abortion before Roe v. Wade. Further, states with a high abortion rate have experienced a greater reduction in crime, when corrected for factors like average income.[4] Finally, studies in Canada and Australia claim to have established a correlation between legalized abortion and overall crime reduction.[4]

                That's from Wikipedia. I can't paste the link with my phone.

                I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                by jbou on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:38:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  So increase in police and crackdown didn't matter? (0+ / 0-)

                  New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

                  by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:46:24 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Nope not one bit (0+ / 0-)

                    I hope that comes across as annoyingly sarcastic because that's how I meant it.

                    I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                    by jbou on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:48:34 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Rudy and Bill, 90's gods for different reasons. (0+ / 0-)

                      Good night.

                      New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

                      by AlexDrew on Sun May 18, 2014 at 05:52:43 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

  •  Aren't the Swiss also voting on a (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wu ming

    …guaranteed income?

    Or has that not come up yet?

    So what about a minimum income? That's what's being debated right now in Switzerland. At some point in the near future, Swiss citizens will vote on a ballot initiative that would guarantee a base pay -- with no work requirement -- equal to about $2,800 a month, more than double what the current federal minimum wage pays in the United States.

    More than 100,000 people signed a petition last year to place the minimum-income measure on the ballot. If a majority of voters and cantons -- the Swiss version of states -- support the proposal, it would become part of the country's constitution.

    (A November 2013 survey commissioned by two Swiss trade unions found that 74 percent of respondents supported instituting a national minimum wage of roughly $25 per hour, a related proposal that is scheduled for a vote in May.)

    http://insurancenewsnet.com/...
    •  The Swiss voted against that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pluto

      proposal. But we are amidst the end of work so I imagine it will resurface. One interesting fact is that about 90% of Swiss workers make more than this minimum now.

      "George RR Martin is not your bitch" ~~ Neil Gaiman

      by tardis10 on Sun May 18, 2014 at 03:35:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Keep in mind that the first indicator that a (0+ / 0-)

        minimum wage is functional is that a large fraction of the population is at the minimum wage, not above it.

        In the worst case, everybody earns more than the minimum wage -- which tells you that the minimum wage is way too low, assuming you're talking about a society operating on anything resembling a market-based economy.

        To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

        by UntimelyRippd on Sun May 18, 2014 at 04:57:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't think you can define (0+ / 0-)

          a minimum wage as functional just because a large fraction of a population subsists on it. Too simplistic,non?

          "George RR Martin is not your bitch" ~~ Neil Gaiman

          by tardis10 on Sun May 18, 2014 at 06:01:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The point of a minimum wage is that it should be (0+ / 0-)

            above subsistence.

            If, in a generally market-based economy, almost everyone makes more than the minimum wage, that tells you that the minimum wage is below subsistence, because in a generally market-based economy, subsistence wage is the lowest amount people can work for.

            It's somewhat depressing that most people get this exactly backwards. It is a classic excuse given by the Death Party for not raising the MW: "Almost nobody makes that little, so why do we need to raise it?". The reason "almost nobody" makes the minimum wage is because it isn't even enough to live on, nevermind thrive on. This will always be true, unless one lives in a society where there is an enormous social welfare system in place, guaranteeing an above-subsistence level of housing, nutrition, and medical care.

            To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

            by UntimelyRippd on Sun May 18, 2014 at 06:10:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yet people can (and do) work (0+ / 0-)

              for less than a subsistence hourly wage by holding multiple jobs,i.e. working more hours.(as one example) Who can forget GWBush lauding the exhausted,scared Mom who was working three jobs as "uniquely American". Similarly,I read folks all the time trying to rationalize low US wages by blithely babbling abut how much two minimum wage earners both working fulltime haul in. Freakin' low bars in 21stC USA. Maybe someday more workers will awaken to the fact that they are being robbed .

              "George RR Martin is not your bitch" ~~ Neil Gaiman

              by tardis10 on Mon May 19, 2014 at 12:02:54 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  State stipend not yet voted (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tardis10

        The initiative has gathered the required number of signatures, so it will come to a vote, but the vote has not happened yet.  We'll vote on that some time later this year.
        At this point, it the initiative does not look like it will succeed, though it has a better chance of doing so than the minimum wage initiative.

        γνωθι σεαυτόν

        by halef on Sun May 18, 2014 at 10:43:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I read this story (0+ / 0-)

    and posted a link to Facebook.  Do you know what country in the world currently has the world's highest minimum wage?

    The Stars and Bars and the red swastika banner are both offerings to the same barbaric god.

    by amyzex on Mon May 19, 2014 at 08:08:28 AM PDT

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