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Solar Roadways has raised over $1,000,000 dollars of seed money for the development of solar powered roads, pathways, parking lots and public use spaces.

https://www.indiegogo.com/...

With extensive volunteer help from all over the world, the visionary new technological endeavor has reached the $1,000,000 target with 7 days left in the fundraising effort.

Because of the global benefits of this technology, the entire globe's population has contributed.  This issue has transcended national bounds.  It is a collectivist movement that is working to change the way that society generates its electricity.

I am sure that you have seen this on social media.

what a wonderful thing to witness.

At one point they were raising over $20,000 PER HOUR!

This viral video received over 3,000,000 views in 5 days!

Faith in Humanity = Restored

8:54 AM PT: Just passed the threshold $1,000,000!

comment from the Indiegogo site


"Congrats guys, you did it!!! One small roadway for man, on giant roadway for mankind!!

.

.

*"

2:56 PM PT: Plugless Power Technology is currently being implemented,  Only slight design changes would be needed to allow electric vehicles to charge 1/2 of their total battery pack capacity while using the other half to propel the car.  This would allow real-time driving/charging and unlimited mileage for electric vehicles, mini cars, buses, and bike paths.  

A few years ago I had a dream that there were electric powered automated passenger lifts (like ski gondolas) moving quietly through the streets of San Francisco,  All a person had to do was call one and the next in line would move into the loading dock (on every corner) they were everywhere and constantly moving. . .they held 6 people and were automatically driven.  This is the kind of technology that can manifest from "smart roads".

.

There was also a high-speed lorry that was suspended under the bay bridge, moving people in and out of the city from the east bay.  It was VERY fast.  

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Poll

Do you want to see a combination of battery storage, wind and solar energy power the entire human species's electrical and transportation needs?

97%924 votes
1%14 votes
0%6 votes

| 944 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (130+ / 0-)

    Be the change that you want to see in the world

    by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 08:53:05 AM PDT

  •  I just saw this on my FB feed (23+ / 0-)

    and had to share it myself.  20 mins ago they were shy $9k of their goal and in that amount of time they raised $14k!

    I missed your first diary NM, and I'm frankly surprised that it didn't make the rec list especially for all our talk about climate change.

    I'd love to see this gain speed before my time on earth is up.

    "Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress Chris Christie. But I repeat myself." ~ Mark Twain, (with a twist) ;o)

    by Terre on Sun May 25, 2014 at 09:09:42 AM PDT

  •  Highway wind turbines (15+ / 0-)

    Another idea I have seen is to setup small turbines to take advantage of the wind caused by high speed cars driving down the highways. It would not generate a lot of power, but it would be enough to power street lights.

    “We can always count on the Americans to do the right thing, after they have exhausted all the other possibilities.” - Winston Chuchill

    by se portland on Sun May 25, 2014 at 09:33:07 AM PDT

  •  This is a thing that Must Be Built (17+ / 0-)

    I absolutely love this idea.

    Now, how do we keep people from hacking the road?

  •  Natural gas combustion is required to make the (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Roger Fox

    glass used in the modules for purpose of solar roadway construction.

    Proper life-cycle evaluation of this technology will consider that fact, among others related to the sources of the material to construct the modules.

    •  again, as are most of your posts (7+ / 0-)

      not true:

      I worked in a factory making T.V.s in a past life.  they used RF to process the glass.

      why do you have to be such a downer and spread misinformation SO VERY OFTEN???

      are you following me?

      Be the change that you want to see in the world

      by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 10:12:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  oh I see (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PeterHug, ozsea1, YucatanMan

        I am sorry, I must have mistook you for someone else.

        however, no it doesn't require natural gas to make the glass.  But you are right, a full environmental impact must be performed.

        you are also right that natural gas and oil, derived from frakking, is worse than keystone XL (due to methane leaks).

        my apologies.

        Be the change that you want to see in the world

        by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 10:15:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You said: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Aquarius40
          however, no it doesn't require natural gas to make the glass.
          The entire glass production industry in the United States is based on natural gas fired production furnaces to produce glass from raw materials of from recycled cullet.
          you are also right that natural gas and oil, derived from frakking, is worse than keystone XL (due to methane leaks).
          I never made such a statement, so you're agreeing with a position that I not only didn't take, but also actively dispute.
          •  oh well (6+ / 0-)

            regarding frakking and methane leaks,  you are misinformed.  I will have to put together a diary to show you how it is so.

            until then,

            you can use absolutism to defend against my statement but in the production of finished products, RF is used in manufacturing of shaped glass.

            If it can be used for that it can also be used for the processing of recycled glass as well.

            Just because it is currently being done a certain way doesn't mean that it should or will always be done that way.

            Be the change that you want to see in the world

            by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 12:39:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You said: (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Aquarius40, wader
              regarding frakking and methane leaks,  you are misinformed.  I will have to put together a diary to show you how it is so.
              If you do so, please consider using the multi-disciplinary science and engineering of air pollution control in your endeavor to form your arguments....starting with the simple concept of getting the distinction right between ambient air contaminant samplings vs. emissions determination from an emission unit.
              you can use absolutism to defend against my statement but in the production of finished products, RF is used in manufacturing of shaped glass.
              If you're engaging in acts of declaration as to scientific knowledge then you would not use the term "absolutism" to object to my claim of the inherent heat input requirements of glass production....in the enormous amounts of glass necessary to manufacture the glass-containing modules which would cover all of the area envisioned in the fundamental concept of the diary.
              If it can be used for that it can also be used for the processing of recycled glass as well.

              Just because it is currently being done a certain way doesn't mean that it should or will always be done that way.

              You are still not addressing the physical magnitude of the amount of glass that would be ncessary to create what you're talking about.   Why don't you see and address how much glass is needed to manufacture one module....and then address the energy requirements of that along with the effect of the decision on the mining of sand....and, again, stay away from Michigan, California, Arizona, Colorado and New Mexico sand dunes and deposits.
              •  I will look at (5+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                RMForbes, ozsea1, YucatanMan, geebeebee, wader

                global warming potentials of CO2 and Methane emitted during the extraction, processing and consumption of the oil produced by both the tar sands and in current U.S. frakking.

                Then I will show you that the current leak rates (and intentional venting in Arkansas, texas, lousiana and Utah) are underrepresented by the EPA by a factor of 10.  As well as the flaring of natural gas in bakkan (currently .3 billion cubic feet per day natural gas flared)  http://www.eia.gov/...

                This will show then that the total Global warming potential on a 20-year time line for frakking of oil is SIGNIFICANTLY greater than the emissions of keystone oil.

                Be the change that you want to see in the world

                by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 01:03:57 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  I find Lake Superior to be very well informed (0+ / 0-)

              .................expect us......................... FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.

              by Roger Fox on Sun May 25, 2014 at 05:01:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I find that he takes himself way too seriously (0+ / 0-)

                and places far too much emphasis where it has no need to be placed.

                And insisting that one must "peer-review" a blog entry in order for it to be worthy of consideration on every conceivable level is just ludicrous.

                "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 11:34:55 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I find Lake Superior to constantly throw cold (0+ / 0-)

                water on ideas in their early stages, which is not needed while we're living in the midst of the despair machine.

                There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

                by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue May 27, 2014 at 02:45:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  It doesn't require natural gas (6+ / 0-)

            It just happens to use natural gas currently. There's a huge difference. There are some industrial processes that require natural gas.

            No War but Class War

            by AoT on Sun May 25, 2014 at 04:31:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Heat for industrial processes (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wader

              will probably be using natural gas long after electrical generation has shifted to renewables.

              Electricity is far too valuable to waste on resistive heating for large scale industrial processes unless you just can't get the temperatures you need any other way, such as arc furnaces (which wouldn't work so well for glass melting anyways).

              •  you can use radio frequency (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lunachickie

                transmitters to heat glass.

                I used to work in a factory that made old-skool T.V.s

                Be the change that you want to see in the world

                by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 06:35:50 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  How much electricity power did you use (0+ / 0-)

                  to melt the equivalent amount of glass compared to natural gas?

                  •  doesn't matter (3+ / 0-)

                    if the electricity is generated from solar or wind there is no greenhouse gas effect.

                    The sun shines more energy on this planet in a single hour than all of humanity uses in a full year.

                    Be the change that you want to see in the world

                    by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 07:24:59 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  besides (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      lunachickie

                      there was significantly less wasted heat (smokestack) since the RF energy was being deposited directly into the glass mass.

                      Be the change that you want to see in the world

                      by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 07:26:11 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  It actually does matter. (0+ / 0-)

                      For many reasons, such as the fact that even solar/wind power isn't 'free', or without consequence.

                      We're going to have a hard enough time replacing fossil fuel electricity generation with renewables, now you want to tack on replacing all industrial heat generation with renewable electricity too?

                      Here's a nice picture of the issue:

                      https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/...

                      How about we tackle the high grade energy, electricity, first before focusing on replacing the lower grade uses, such as residential heating and industrial furnaces.

                      •  how about we do it all (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        lunachickie, Gwennedd, AoT

                        right now, in a total economic mobilization with government spending equivalent to 30% of gross GDP.

                        we really do need this level of engagement.  It isn't like we are going to be able to keep the cities of Phoenix and Albuquerque for another 20 years.

                        not to mention food production and rainfall pattern changes.

                        It is going to take a national effort, on the scale of world war II mobilization to resolve the challenges we will be facing in the next 20 years.

                        Be the change that you want to see in the world

                        by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 11:07:24 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

      •  First, there is a considerable process difference (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Roger Fox, wader

        between taking glass that has already been fused from raw materials and processing it to a fused state which is then again heated and processed to final form, such as in an old cathode ray picture tube.

        See electric heat induction of glass...

        http://www.ciiq.org/...

        That type of process is not useful or efficient for generating fused glass from raw materials, which is generally done in a natural gas-ired furnace combustor.   See this information from Owens-Illinois (which operates a facility not far from Michigan's Capitol of Lansing.

        http://www.o-i.com/...

        See also the glass manufacturing furnace section of this EPA document describing typical emissions from such furnaces...which are mostly fired with natural gas:

        http://www.epa.gov/...

        The amount of energy required from fossil fuels for glass manufacturing is directly proportional to the amount of glass produced.  So the total heat input from fossil fuels for your glass module replacement for all roads, sidewalks, etc. would be directly relatable to the total mass of glass used in the product per unit area of the modules.

        If you worked in a factory that made TV's or made Cathode Ray Tubes, you must be getting on in years and I hope you're enjoying your retirement.

        •  Where do you plan on getting all of the sand to (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Aquarius40, Roger Fox

          make all of this new glass to replace all of the roadways, parting lots, etc.?

          Please do not consider Michigan's sand dunes on Lake Michigan and Lake Superior as one of your planned sand mining sites.

          Also, you'll have to stand in line for your sand purchases along with the oil and gas industry which has created considerable demand for sand as a primary constituent of hydraulic fracturing formulations.

          •  meh (7+ / 0-)

            now you are just concern trolling.

            tell me again how frakking is so great. . .

            Be the change that you want to see in the world

            by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 12:40:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And what you're doing is to try to conjure into (0+ / 0-)

              existence an enormous amount of glass manufacturing to make any such enterprise as your are writing about, without understanding, caring or addressing the energy and material consequences of such a massive glass-using manufacturing operation will have for both energy and environment.

              •  What you're doing is sure starting to look like (12+ / 0-)

                spammy shout downs. Why else would you be so rude about it as to basically repeatedly make such demands of this diarist?

                It is not up to the diarist to take the entire concept to fruition.

                "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 01:02:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  yeah (7+ / 0-)
                energy and material consequences of such a massive glass-using manufacturing operation will have for both energy and environment.
                as opposed to burning oil coal and natural gas?

                you are hilarious!

                Using solar roadways to power transportation will SAVE energy by several orders of magnitude.

                quit with the pathetic trolling strawman arguments already.

                Be the change that you want to see in the world

                by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 01:06:50 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  And fracking! (7+ / 0-)

                  Expect worse than this type of concern trolling. Much, much worse.

                  That which you see here is "testing" to see what arguments will fly in the general output from America's Mainstream Media, to push back on this.

                  "The manufacturing of glass" is one of the few things they think might have 'legs'. That and "hacking"--as if The Dumb Grid isn't hackable already ;)

                  "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                  by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 01:09:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Here is what U.S. EPA has to say about the problem (0+ / 0-)

                  of manufacturing of glass in the United States:

                  The U.S. glass industry includes establishments engaged in manufacturing flat glass, container glass, specialty
                  glass, and fiberglass. These four primary industry
                  segments produce over 20 million tons of glass
                  per year, with a value of over $16 billion. Glass
                  manufacturing in the United States is one of the
                  most energy intensive industries;
                  in 2003, energy costs were about $1.6 billion, representing
                  around 14% of the industry’s total production costs.
                  Primary energy consumption of the glass
                  industry is approximately 1% of total U.S. industrial energy use.
                    (emphasis added)

                  http://www.epa.gov/...

                  Replacing roads (including roads that have 80,000 lb truck traffic on them) means creating massive new demand for glass manufacturing and sand mining in the United States.   To meet demand from a massive effort at solar roads, the existing glass manufacturing industry would have to be expanded to meet solar road manufacturing demand over an above present glass consumption.....so you're talking about a massive increase in required glass manufacturing in order carry out any massive change out of existing roads to this new technology.

                  Massive glass manufacturing expansion means a massive increase in the amount of energy required for total manufacturing of glass and the mining of sand for raw materials for that glass.   This will not come from existing glass recycling programs which are already allocated to present levels of glass manufacturing and not the massive expansion that would be needed for massive solar roads implementation.

                  The diarist has not yet indicated the amount of glass required per unit area of glass module manufactured.  That information is necessary to determine the glass consumption consequences of a massive buildout of solar roads.

                  •  That is not up to the Diarist, sir (8+ / 0-)

                    no matter how many times you insist, with however many word salad-y gish-styled gallops you foist on this discussion.

                    The diarist has not yet indicated the amount of glass required per unit area of glass module manufactured.
                     

                    You may in fact be right--but that's what the grants and continued research are for. Try not to get ahead of yourself, in your zeal to rain all over the innovative idea of one of your fellow Americans.

                    "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                    by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 02:06:11 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  This is form of scientific peer review on the (0+ / 0-)

                      diarist's writings, but you apparently don't understand that.

                      •  Bullshit. It's a BLOG n/t (5+ / 0-)

                        "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                        by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 03:50:08 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Why is Daily Kos as a blog and Daily Kos Democrat- (0+ / 0-)

                          participants exempt from peer review?

                          •  Because this blog post is not (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ozsea1, YucatanMan, Gwennedd, geebeebee

                            "a body of scientific work" which requires evaluation of scientific, academic, or professional work.

                            You can peer-review as a hobby all you want, spunky--it's just not a requirement that you have any authority to demand, to the detriment of anyone else's post. You have no more authority than the diarist does.

                            "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                            by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 04:32:21 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Hmmm, that is one of Lake Superiors hobbys (0+ / 0-)

                            Its a shame when a very intelligent mind & writer blunts, shatters their otherwise positive impact by not being able to play nice in the sandbox.

                            .................expect us......................... FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.

                            by Roger Fox on Sun May 25, 2014 at 05:18:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Whose hobbies? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Gwennedd

                            His/hers or everyone else's?

                            "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                            by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 05:56:44 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yeah, it's too bad (0+ / 0-)

                            But one of the challenges of being an expert or a scholar (don't know which one LS is) is knowing when application of  your knowledge is helpful and when it is not. Also knowing when a certain level of knowledge is called for, and when it is not.

                            If I did an extensive nitpicking critique of a hypothesis one of my students came up with before my student had even completed his first draft, I'd likely suffocate the idea in the crib--or perhaps in the womb.

                            Such nitpicking critiques tend to keep knowledge where it's already at, in the shallow end of the pool, where it's nice and safe and well-defined and everybody already knows everything there is to be known. Unfortunately, the shallow end of the pool rarely yields the insights necessary to correct for a system-wide failure such as global warming. You need to take intellectual risks to do that, and that almost always requires doing something that will inspire many objections. Some of those objections might even be well-founded. But they aren't reasons for stopping the process of investigation and discovery.

                            LS's critiques have the effect of dumping a whole shallow end of the pool's worth of cold water on an honest and rigorous attempt to engage in truly transformative thinking.

                            There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

                            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue May 27, 2014 at 03:00:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  his critiques (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            SouthernLiberalinMD

                            are straw grasping and narrow minded.

                            he is a troll and a  fool AND he defends the keystone XL pipeline and frakking.  

                            don't get me started. . .

                            Be the change that you want to see in the world

                            by New Minas on Wed May 28, 2014 at 09:55:57 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  No, a dismaissal of the diary because (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        lunachickie, YucatanMan, Gwennedd

                        you're claiming it's missing certain information.

                        But that info doesn't even exist yet.

                        Ergo, that's not a rational criticism of the diary.

                        "What could BPossibly go wrong??" -RLMiller "God is just pretend." - eru

                        by nosleep4u on Sun May 25, 2014 at 05:14:34 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Of course Lunachickie understands that (0+ / 0-)

                        Lunachickie said

                        You may in fact be right
                        I know for a fact you are right. I think the whole concept of solar roads is a bit silly in the near term.

                        I also know you tend to use a 10 pound sledgehammer when a 5 pound sledge will do the job.

                        .................expect us......................... FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.

                        by Roger Fox on Sun May 25, 2014 at 05:16:14 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  So is LakeSuperior right (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      LakeSuperior

                      or is he spouting word salad gibberish?  Make up your mind.

                      I have no trouble understanding the paragraph you highlighted.  From the original video comments, I gathered that the couple who invented the hexagons were trying to get the unit cost down from $10k to $5k per tile.  Each tile covers about 10 square feet.  So,

                      Solar tile cost per square foot: 500-1000$

                      Asphalt tile cost per square foot: $1.65.

                      The interstate highway system cost $128 billion to build, and would likely cost substantially more today.  Even assuming the same roadbed would be used, the cost of ripping up asphalt and installing the tiles, not to mention all the electrical connections, would likely be substantially higher than new conventional paving.

                      Even if we're being ridiculously generous with our assumptions, solar highway paving would run into the tens of trillions, or three times the entire annual federal budget.  For one piece of infrastructure.

                      Maybe GE or Google could blow a few million on an executive LED solar parking lot, which would be cool.  But we're not getting solar interstates.  Ever.

                      If pointing out the economic limitations of this kind of technology bums you out, you're probably posting in the wrong blog.

                      First they came for the slippery-slope fallacists, and I said nothing. The End.

                      by Cream Puff on Sun May 25, 2014 at 03:52:00 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  What do you mean, "make up my mind"? (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        ozsea1, Gwennedd

                        We don't know that yet. That's why "testing" is being done. That's why money is being raised--for more testing while they develop a prototype on a bigger level. As part of that, reviews of "cost" will certainly happen.

                        If pointing out the economic limitations of this kind of technology bums you out, you're probably posting in the wrong blog.
                        Except it's not about "me" and it's not about my "being bummed out". It's about the endless, worn-out tactic of demanding fucking Peer Review or else Back In The Box With You, in order for a diary's discussion to continue in a grown up fashion. This endless vomiting of dismissive YOUDIDN'TPROVEIT posts before any conversation of any decent meaning can take deep root and continue for more than an hour or two, without the endless curdle of belittling others or the ideas they post for discussion on this--or damn near any other--BLOG that has a goodly amount of followers

                        But you knew that, didn't you?

                        "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                        by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 04:00:29 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You want it both ways. (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          LakeSuperior, pigpaste

                          You want to make it look like you're taking a scientific and objective approach, but you couldn't find a way to refute the substance of LakeSuperior's points.  So you accused him of Sarah Palin-like incoherence and threw in a hedge that he might be right.  Sounds pretty indecisive to me.

                          Neither LakeSuperior nor I demanded peer-reviewed studies showing the economic feasibility of solar roadways.  The so-called FAQ section is an embarrassment, as it fails to show the simple arithmetic required to claim viability (this is intentional of course, because no such arithmetic exists)   No one's demanding you prove anything.  A passing familiarity with economic realities would be nice though.

                          P.S. I've seen ridiculous uses of scare quotes before, but using them with "testing" takes the cake.

                          First they came for the slippery-slope fallacists, and I said nothing. The End.

                          by Cream Puff on Sun May 25, 2014 at 04:24:26 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm doing no such thing (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ozsea1, YucatanMan, Dem Beans, Gwennedd

                            I'm reminding everyone that these inane "requests" for "peer review" are ridiculous, when the person who posted this diary has no requirement to be a professional blogger, let alone a professional scientist. They are blogging about an article elsewhere. If you want to demand peer review, go talk to the Federal Highway Administration.

                            Oh, and...some of us use quotes for "emphasis", not to induce fear (eyeroll)

                            "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                            by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 04:37:35 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The diarist is promoting the fundraising for (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            pigpaste

                            the solar roads project here to Democrats on a progressive blog.

                            Why that should not get peer review isn't explained in your comment.

                          •  Bullshit, again (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Gwennedd, RMForbes

                            The first words in this diary are:

                            Solar Roadways has raised over $1,000,000 dollars of seed money for the development of solar powered roads, pathways, parking lots and public use spaces.
                            The diarist is reporting the fund-raising effort.

                            And even if the diarist was advocating for funds, fund raising efforts do not require peer review. Particularly on a blog.

                            Hobby, much?

                            "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                            by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 07:22:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  If that's what you are so pissed about, (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            lunachickie, New Minas

                            I'm surprised you didn't go after me a week ago when I posted a diary about the beginning of this indiegogo campaign! Why not?

                            I was not pushing the campaign and neither is New Minas or Lunachickie.

                            We are all simply astounded by the concept of solar roadways and it's possibilities, and the success it's had with the campaign.

                            Back off!

                            A fo ben, bid bont. - Welsh proverb. ( translation: If you want to be a leader, be a bridge.)

                            by Gwennedd on Sun May 25, 2014 at 08:14:51 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  God forbid anyone should get excited (0+ / 0-)

                            and hopeful about something that could create some good in the world. Let's come up with every reason why it can't possibly work, and use those as a way of poo-poohing and discouraging the effort. Because not only does LS know it's absolutely destined to fail, LS is also certain that failed experiments in science or engineering have never led to any measurable significant progress for humanity. In other words, failures never lead to successes. Experiments have got to be perfect, from the beginning, with no drawbacks or they're stupid naive crap.

                            End Trans

                            There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

                            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue May 27, 2014 at 03:05:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  I think the entire 'peer review' bullshit (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          geebeebee, lunachickie, RMForbes

                          is really preening and obnoxious.

                          My god, this isn't academia.  I've wanted to vomit every time I read this 'peer review' nonsense.

                          Maybe, with the current funding, some data points can be generated and then he and others can jump on it and rip it apart.  It's too early in the process to do this and to pretend that it should be bagged as a first step is, to put it mildly, highly suspicious.

                          If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." - John F. Kennedy

                          by Dem Beans on Sun May 25, 2014 at 07:40:56 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  he has advocated for frakking (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Dem Beans, Gwennedd

                            so  much, he simply must be a hired hack.  Check his comments.

                            Be the change that you want to see in the world

                            by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 08:36:45 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What? Is this true? (0+ / 0-)

                            If so, I may have to reconsider my assumption that LS is operating in good faith.

                            There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

                            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue May 27, 2014 at 03:06:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The general (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Dem Beans

                            framing of 2/3 of their every challenge to others here with that authoritative "You State" heading is a dead fucking giveaway.

                            Yes, but be nice and polite and accommodating anyway, just in case he/she is really just another contrarian hobbyist skipping about the blogosphere, spreading all that gloom and doom just for fun ;)
                             

                            "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                            by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 08:46:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Glass! Sand! (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            lunachickie, New Minas, Gwennedd

                            Holy potato, I'm still mind-boggled about the 'peer review' of a fucking video!

                            I'm guessing the people who have generously crowd-sourced this idea - and face it, with our politicians bought-and-paid-for by big oil, gas and coal, crowd-sourcing is the only way we'll move forward - 'peer reviewed' it with their own money.  I believe that's the source of the frustration we're seeing, along with general hackery etc.

                            If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." - John F. Kennedy

                            by Dem Beans on Sun May 25, 2014 at 09:18:22 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  I believe that pricing was for the original (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        New Minas

                        design of 12 foot by 12 foot panels, not the new hexagons.

                  •  Again, the SR folk use recycled glass (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    lunachickie, YucatanMan

                    As mentioned in their Indiegogo page and in their FAQ:

                    http://solarroadways.com/...

                    Visit http://theuptake.org/ for Minnesota news as it happens.

                    by Phoenix Woman on Sun May 25, 2014 at 03:18:42 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Electricity, as a heat input source cannot, (0+ / 0-)

                  substitute for fossil fuels in all industrial production.

                  There isn't going to be a solar powered cement clinker kiln ever....that process is not technically and practically feasible.

              •  The SR folks use recycled glass (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                unfangus, YucatanMan, Gwennedd

                As is mentioned in their FAQ:

                http://solarroadways.com/...

                Visit http://theuptake.org/ for Minnesota news as it happens.

                by Phoenix Woman on Sun May 25, 2014 at 03:17:06 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Lake Superior is applying some (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LakeSuperior

              routine critical thinking in asking basic questions that should be asked about any proposed energy-related technology. I have no idea who s/he is or where they work, but it doesn't matter, the questions are entirely reasonable and should be anticipated by any diarist hyping a development.

              •  bullshit (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Gwennedd

                None of his points involve critical thinking, they are simply concern trolling and thread jacking, check his posts on frakking.  he is an industry hack.

                he is soooo concerned about the sand necessary to make the glass.

                really, that is what you call critical thinking???  

                I say, not at all.

                Be the change that you want to see in the world

                by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 08:39:50 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes, that's critical thinking. (0+ / 0-)

                  Calculation of all the embedded energy and material and environmental costs of a proposed technology is good, standard analysis. If his or her analysis is wrong, someone can refute it. But the questions are entirely reasonable and attempts to stop them from being raised read like religious objections. Do you really think that shutting down discussion of the feasibility of this idea is going to persuade more people to back it?  

                  •  he raises them (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Gwennedd

                    and then declares them as dogmatic truth in the same breath.

                    this is the raison d'etre of trolling.

                    I have reviewed his comments on other threads.  He is an industry hack.

                    Be the change that you want to see in the world

                    by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 11:17:58 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  No, this is a legitimate point of questioning, (0+ / 0-)

              I feel.

              I recall discussing the solar roadway concept in practical form on DKos at least a year ago, but nothing I saw in the video and this article leads me to believe it's gone beyond the applications seemingly best suited for it at this point in time: limited areas (e.g., parking lots, school grounds, industrial parks, amusement parks, etc.) and that there are numerous materials + maintenance issues to work out before this could be considered as a replacement for major stretches of public roadway.  That's without first getting over the hurdle of manufacturing + installation costs.

              Plus, they are overselling the product a bit by offering some strategic elements as near-term possibilities: warming a roadway to the point of no longer needing snow plows seems a bit unlikely to help much if snow is 1" in depth or greater.  Further, there's all the tie-in to local utilities that will take some time and agreements.

              There's some good starting-point applications to work with here, which seems a good thing: an awful lot of testing, redesigns, negotiations (legal, utility, financial) are likely going to keep this technology planted in such limited installations for a time.

              "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

              by wader on Sun May 25, 2014 at 09:20:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  the u.s. produces (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lunachickie, wader

                20 million tons of glass per year.

                so where is this big shortage of materials???

                http://brandongaille.com/...

                Be the change that you want to see in the world

                by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 11:21:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Glass production in the USA has gone down (0+ / 0-)

                  dramatically over the past decade - it's mostly overseas, now.  I believe that even the latest NYC "Twin Towers" replacement is using glass from China.

                  Sourcing and related economics must be part of the equation for use of solar roadway tiles in this country.

                  Further, I touched upon a number of other physical, logistic and economic/political issues related to these types of tarmac roadway replacements to be considered in any serious form beyond smaller, contained installations.

                  Meanwhile, we have forests being clear-cut that could either be replaced by more trees or perhaps the logging industry could be enticed to work with our solar industry to replace the cut trees with solar installations - we know the sun is generally available in many areas where forests have thrived, that is.  There are far simpler, less costly and easier-to-maintain ways to get at solar energy rampup in the next few decades, I feel.  I'd be interested to see this concept continue and determine if it can be expanded upon after being tested in the real world for limited areas, but feel it will be a niche player in solar energy generation compared to the other benefits that they propose (many of which are speculative and deserve testing, such as pressure-sensitive feedback utilization, lit roadways and road warming).

                  "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

                  by wader on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:46:56 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Bring it back up again! (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    wader, Gwennedd

                    Don't we want to restore American manufacturing? We could help revitalize the Rust Belt with stuff like this. We used to have some great glassworkers in this country! Don't tell me we couldn't do that again.

                    Once again, if this were a weapons technology,  none of these objections would be raised. We'd just do it, and rearrange our economy and our logistics to suit.

                    There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

                    by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue May 27, 2014 at 03:09:11 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Sure, I'd love to see that happen (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      SouthernLiberalinMD, Gwennedd

                      Might as well see if we could rally the country around green energy technology/manufacturing and become a world exporter in both expertise and products/services.  Then, we take a look at the heinous actions of short-sighted, small-minded "conservatives" and libertarians in public offices, then see why our potential seems unlikely to be realized by any single effort.

                      I wish it were otherwise.

                      "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

                      by wader on Tue May 27, 2014 at 04:54:41 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yes, that's why I wish Steyer would put his (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        wader

                        money behind the green economy, perhaps starting with the goal of transforming our five largest cities into places where the majority of the building stock is energy-efficient and changing and upgrading other parts of the infrastructure as well to increase efficiency.  If he put his money behind that, as well as putting funding toward a few promising new transformative technologies, I think it would be much more productive than pouring his money into electoral politics.

                        I like Sen Markey quite a lot, but it might be more productive to the movement in the long run if Mr. Steyer created some green jobs and gave some love to some green businesses and invested in our infrastructure, rather than just making sure Sen. Markey stays where he is and has a few more congenial friends.

                        I don't know how many jobs one can create with 1 billion dollars behind it, but surely he could find some other rich people to put down some money as well, if he's willing to put a billion toward this cause.

                        The best way to convince the American people that green is good is to create green jobs that offer a living wage.

                        There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

                        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue May 27, 2014 at 05:06:39 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  Re the snow: (0+ / 0-)

                Snow falls onto an object one tiny snowflake at a time. It doesn't suddenly plunk down 1" deep. If the road is warm, the flakes melt almost instantly, preventing a build-up.

                Besides, the same mechanics that applies to glaciers would also apply here. Water underneath a glacier helps it move faster. Water under some snow will speed up the breakup of the snow.

                A fo ben, bid bont. - Welsh proverb. ( translation: If you want to be a leader, be a bridge.)

                by Gwennedd on Mon May 26, 2014 at 01:49:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Below-freezing temperatures and any decent-rate (0+ / 0-)

                  snow and/or icy rain fall in this area of NY would easily overwhelm a slightly warm surface, providing a potentially slightly slushy underpinning to otherwise snow or ice-covered roadways, IMHO.  Those roadway tiles would need to be mighty WARM to do much more, which then brings up the question of where all the electricity to warm them would come from on a stormy day/evening.

                  "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

                  by wader on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:49:12 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Solar does work on cloudy days. (0+ / 0-)

                    Energy storage is also possible. Augmenting with wind turbines is possible. Someone in the previous comments mentioned turbines that utilize the "wind" from cars to power small turbines.

                    There is also the possibility that snow removal may not be possible in the north where the cold and large amounts of snow are continuous all winter.

                    The inventors of this concept are very good at adaptation and can probably work around any problems that arise.

                    A fo ben, bid bont. - Welsh proverb. ( translation: If you want to be a leader, be a bridge.)

                    by Gwennedd on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:34:19 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  My background already had me considering (0+ / 0-)

                      those possibilities, but the point is that they were not being sold as the primary advantage of these tiles, i.e., solar power generation.

                      Local needs, especially confining them to limited scope installations, would seem to fit their niche for the next few decades.

                      "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

                      by wader on Tue May 27, 2014 at 04:52:26 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  The alternative is either concrete, which uses (10+ / 0-)

            staggering amounts of natural gas, or asphalt made in large part from oil.

            “Poor people have access to American courts in the same sense that Christians thrown to lions had access to the Coliseum.” — Earl Johnson Jr., retired justice,California State Court of Appeal

            by JesseCW on Sun May 25, 2014 at 01:48:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Cement production in the United States is (0+ / 0-)

              predominately carried out with with coal and petroleum coke....not with natural gas.

              And greenhouse gas emissions from cement production is very high because GHG gases are generated both from the fuels used and from carbonates in limestone.

              Asphalt is technically a mixture of asphalt emulsion (derived either from petroleum products or from coal tar generated at coke oven byproduct plants) and crushed rock.

              As a proportion of the total by mass, the crushed rock part is the greater mass of what is in asphalt.

              •  So your response is that absent the need for (7+ / 0-)

                large amounts of glass....

                Roadways will be paved with gumdrops?

                As a proportion of the total by mass, the crushed rock part is the greater mass of what is in asphalt.
                Does your programing include a basic familiarity with conversational English?

                "in large part" does not mean "majority".

                “Poor people have access to American courts in the same sense that Christians thrown to lions had access to the Coliseum.” — Earl Johnson Jr., retired justice,California State Court of Appeal

                by JesseCW on Sun May 25, 2014 at 02:25:06 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  There are thousands of miles (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Phoenix Woman

                of asphalt in this country now. Did we assume that the "smart road" has to be installed over existing concrete?

                That would probably be convenient, but maybe it's not necessary? Maybe someone could figure out a way to tear up the asphalt and make glass out of it--and then build a new road foundation where the existing one already is, and then voila--there's your glass.

                Is that possible? I don't know, I'm not a Peer-Reviewer, I'm just a schlub hanging around a blog. But I know this much: all these things, all these questions, all these suppositions--go nowhere without investigation. Which is engendered by money. Which is usually engendered by discussion up-front.

                Let's talk about that!  ;)

                 

                "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 02:29:48 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You said: (0+ / 0-)
                  Maybe someone could figure out a way to tear up the asphalt and make glass out of it-
                  Since the principle component of glass is silica sand, it isn't possible to make glass out of recovery asphalt concrete pavement.
                  and then build a new road foundation where the existing one already is, and then voila--there's your glass
                  Build a new road foundation out of what?   Can't set these solar road modules on gravel....that would not work in interstate highway construction.
                  I'm not a Peer-Reviewer, I'm just a schlub hanging around a blog.
                  Since Democrats are supposed to be the ones that excel at science, technology, engineering and infrastruction development, Democrats should also be engaging in peer review in their statements, questions and criticisms of an engineering vision of the future.
                  •  You said: (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    fumie

                    Seriously, your comment history is full of this quirky little comment styling. What are you trying to do, establish "authority" with all that uniformity?
                     

                    Since Democrats are supposed to be the ones that excel at science, technology, engineering and infrastruction development, Democrats should also be engaging in peer review in their statements, questions and criticisms of an engineering vision of the future.
                    Political parties don't have a lock on such things. Bloggers should be engaged in discussion. If you want "Peer Review", I'm sure there's a laboratory near your house in need of your many, many talents.

                    "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                    by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 04:04:19 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Daily Kos is my backyard laboratory (0+ / 0-)

                      and I'm trying to get Democrats to be true to science, engineering and medicine in their advocacy and policy declarations.....because that is the only path to governance for progressive Democrats.  

                      That means practicing science peer review in real time on the Daily Kos blog.

                      •  Well isn't that special? (6+ / 0-)

                        You feel free to be a mad scientist all you want--that doesn't give you any more authority here than anyone else.

                        It further it gives you no authority to demand laboratory standards in the content of the postings on this, or any other, blog.

                        "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                        by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 04:18:03 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  True to science? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Gwennedd

                        You do realize you are anti-science. Your attempt to use your superior knowledge of information to denigrate scientific investigation is rather sad. Almost all of your comments are non sequitur to this diary. They are attempts to dissuade discussion. You might have your facts correct but you do not use them in any way that could be considered peer review or even scientifically logical.

                        You keep making claims about sand shortages and energy use that have no bearing what-so-ever on whether this technology should be investigated. If this technology proves viable, how it's manufactured, and even what it is manufactured from could easily change depending on economic necessity and physics.  

                        For example you bring up about 'sand shortages' but there is no sand shortage. There is a possible shortage of a certain grade of sand due to heavy use in fracking that has no bearing on the sand needed for glass manufacture. You are obviously knowledgeable enough to know this yet you bring it up as a reason to denigrate this research. It makes anything else you say unreliable and untrustworthy.

              •  You're saying coal is better than natgas? (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Debby, lunachickie, ozsea1

                Really?

                REALLY?

                But the study concludes that natural gas as a fuel source still contributes less to climate change than coal. "We don't believe that the evidence suggests that burning coal is better," Brandt says. "There's just not support for that." The reason is that while methane is the more damaging greenhouse gas, carbon dioxide, which coal emits in huge quantities when burned, stays in the atmosphere for a much longer period of time. Coal is a "cleaner" fuel only in the near-term—a period of 20 years or so. Brandt says that over a period of 100 years, natural gas—leaks and all—would still be a less greenhouse gas-intensive source of energy than coal.

                Visit http://theuptake.org/ for Minnesota news as it happens.

                by Phoenix Woman on Sun May 25, 2014 at 03:22:06 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm not aware of any natural gas fired cement (0+ / 0-)

                  kilns in the United States.  By making the statement that coal and petroleum coke are used to make klinker for cement in the United States and that natural gas is not used for this purpose....is not a statement addressing comparisons between coal, petroleum coke and natural gas as to the greenhouse gas emission intensity of these respective fuels.....

                  However, I have made statements saying that the Michael Brune - Josh Fox - Bill McKibben line of argument saying that natural gas to electricity is somehow worse than coal to electricity for greenhouse gas emission intensity is junk science and engineering.

            •  The glass could be replaced by composite plastics (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Phoenix Woman

              produced from natural cellulose fibers like hemp which are more durable, stronger and far more energy efficient to produce.

              Really don't mind if you sit this one out. My words but a whisper -- your deafness a SHOUT. I may make you feel but I can't make you think..Jethro Tull

              by RMForbes on Sun May 25, 2014 at 03:05:24 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The big question would be flammability (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                RMForbes, Gwennedd

                One of the nice things about glass (recycled or otherwise) is that it doesn't burn readily.

                If you can make a composite plastic with glass-like resistance to burning, that would be fabulous.  Though I wouldn't be surprised to hear that such a plastic exists.

                Visit http://theuptake.org/ for Minnesota news as it happens.

                by Phoenix Woman on Sun May 25, 2014 at 03:25:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  And concrete and pavement add to the heating up (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Gwennedd

              of the planet.

              The solar roadways have drainage incorporated into the plan which most communities really need more of.

              We will all be better off with less pavement and concrete.

              Maybe go back to dirt roads and horses???

          •  Oh for heavens' sake. Where does the sand (5+ / 0-)

            come from for the same exact miles of concrete today?

            Yawn, yawn, yawn.  

            For someone who supposedly cares about the environment, you always come in to be Debbie-downer and poo-poo any advance or creative thinking that comes along.  And often laughably obvious.

            "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

            by YucatanMan on Sun May 25, 2014 at 06:56:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  only (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              YucatanMan, lunachickie

              if those creative thoughts and advances threaten the fossil fuel industry. . .

              Be the change that you want to see in the world

              by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 08:41:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  The principle constituent in the making of (0+ / 0-)

              klinker to make cement is not sand....it is limestone, by far, with the majority of the volume of the raw kiln feed for this product.   Coal fly ash, iron ore iand waste foundry sand is frequently substituted for sand and other virgin materials to make portland cement.

              Sand and gypsum is also ground into post-processing kilinker to make cement from clinker.

              However, the overwhelming source of the volume of all materials used to make cement comes from limestone, and there is plenty of that available.

              •  I see you suffer from poor reading comprehesion. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                New Minas, lunachickie, Gwennedd

                You answered about "cement" whereas I specifically asked you about "concrete."

                Concrete consists of a ratio of cement, sand, and gravel. Together, the sand and gravel are called "aggregates."

                We use 2.25 billion tons of aggregates in the USA per year already. 26-30% of that (varies by year) is used in highway and street construction = 7.5 tons (15,000 pounds) for every person in the USA each year.

                85,000 tons of aggregates are necessary to construct one mile of an interstate highway lane or 1/4 mile of a four-lane road. Plus cement.

                Generally speaking, the ratio for highway construction is one part cement (along with the already high GW contributions), twice as much SAND (from where? from where?) and four parts gravel.

                So, a 10-12-14 inch thick concrete highway TODAY already uses a huge volume of sand.  Interstate highways, as built, are typically 11-12 inches of concrete, but that varies based on soil conditions, grade, and climate.

                Oh where, oh where will we find all that sand for glass paving?
                Exactly the same places we find sand for concrete paving today.

                I guess you would know that if your purported expertise on highway construction had any validity.

                You may have some expertise in some areas, but apparently you understand very little about highway construction.

                Besides massive amounts of sand used in highway construction itself today, additional massive amounts of sand are used annually for maintenance in winter areas, while the proposed glass-way can melt off ice and snow without the use of annually consumed sand and salt.

                So, if your concern is about sand consumption: 1) we already use massive amounts today in construction; 2) we use vast amounts again each year for winter maintenance and for regular repairs; 3) the new surface would eliminate annual winter sand consumption.

                As for where the sand would come from:
                It would come from the same place it does today.
                I'll leave it to you to look into that further . . .

                "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                by YucatanMan on Sun May 25, 2014 at 09:57:25 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Also note that, besides the concrete itself (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  lunachickie

                  on highways - the surface you drive upon - there is a 20-22 inch deep layer of compacted "combined aggregates below the 11-12 inches of concrete.

                  Half of all the sand and gravel used in the USA each year is already used in Interstate highway construction, and this is after the essential completion of the system.

                  Vast amounts of sand are used today. Sand would be used for this road surface, but in a different way.

                  "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                  by YucatanMan on Sun May 25, 2014 at 10:06:15 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  If we needed all this new glass for a new weapons (0+ / 0-)

            system, that question wouldn't even be asked.

            As far as the sand dunes are concerned, such fragile ecosystems will go the way of the dodo if we continue as we have been.

            Frankly, Lake Superior, to quote Capt. Kirk:  

            McCoy: You're going to try time traveling in this rustbucket?
            Kirk: Well, we've done it before.
            McCoy: Sure, you slingshot around the Sun, pick up enough speed - You're in time warp. If you don't, you're fried.
            Kirk: I prefer it to nothing.
            McCoy: I prefer a dose of common sense! You're proposing that we go backwards in time, find humpback whales, then bring them foward in time, drop 'em off, and hope to Hell they tell this probe what to do with itself!
            Kirk: That's the general idea.
            McCoy: Well, that's crazy!
            Kirk: You've got a better idea?
            [pause]
            Kirk: Now's the time.

            There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue May 27, 2014 at 02:49:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  It's what Lake Superior does. (11+ / 0-)

        Pretty much everything s/he says has the effect of discrediting environmentalists and throwing the biggest wet blanket s/he can on whatever enthusiasm for change is still out there.

        There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun May 25, 2014 at 01:39:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Still need power to generate the RF. (0+ / 0-)

        The greater point is that we will be using carbon based energy to make the next generation of renewable generation capacity.

        .................expect us......................... FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.

        by Roger Fox on Sun May 25, 2014 at 05:03:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah, nothing's pure. We know. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lunachickie, JesseCW, Phoenix Woman

      There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun May 25, 2014 at 01:38:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What is the cost tradeoff? (5+ / 0-)

      On the one hand, you have inputs into the glass production. On the other, you have energy the roadway produces being used for powering street lights and road signs and other nearby electrical equipment.

      In addition, what is the value of lives potentially saved by having automated snow and ice removal and lighted lane dividers?

      How about the disposal cost of petroleum based road surfaces versus glass, which can be ground into sand?

      As you noted, there are a lot of factors to consider before offhandedly dismissing a particular technology.

      Obi Ben Ghazi to House Republicans: "Use the Farce."

      by edg on Sun May 25, 2014 at 02:33:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  We will be using carbon based energy (0+ / 0-)

      to make the renewable infrastructure for years to come.

      .................expect us......................... FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.

      by Roger Fox on Sun May 25, 2014 at 05:05:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Only one comment on the video............ (12+ / 0-)

    It speaks to ice and snow problems in Northern climes but just imagine if the streets and freeways of Atlanta, Ga. would have had these panels last winter. The city would not have been shut down for two days and not suffered the loss of dollars from an economy on its knees.

    People and transportation agencies in the north are good at dealing with ice and snow; it is the folks who seldom see ice, sleet, freezing rain and snow that cannot cope.
    I don't know if the heating elements add enough to the cost of production that they should not be in all panels no matter where they are used.  

    The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation--HDT

    by cazcee on Sun May 25, 2014 at 10:00:44 AM PDT

    •  not to mention converting (7+ / 0-)

      power lines to underground like they do in Denmark.

      Imagine, no more tree-fall power outages!

      Be the change that you want to see in the world

      by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 10:16:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I really question whether they could keep up w/ (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      New Minas

      blizzard conditions, but avoiding that random ice storm, particularly on the interstates and major road, would be awesome.

      On the one hand, no one needs the heat elements in Phoenix or San Diego.  Complete waste.

      On the other, I wonder if panels can be easily re-used.  For example, if a parking lot is torn up to make way for new construction, can the panels just be sold and re-installed elsewhere?

      If so, it might be worth it to put heat in all panels to avoid having two assembly lines and make re-use simple.

      I was thinking the same thing re: solar panels.  Some parts of parking lots and some sections of road get no sun at all.  Would it be a good idea to make some panels that are simply "smart roads"?

      I think it would probably create more logistic difficulties than it would be worth.

      “Poor people have access to American courts in the same sense that Christians thrown to lions had access to the Coliseum.” — Earl Johnson Jr., retired justice,California State Court of Appeal

      by JesseCW on Sun May 25, 2014 at 01:53:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think so! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RMForbes

        Some areas would not be best for panels but having underground power lines and smart road capability would be worth it!

        Be the change that you want to see in the world

        by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 02:08:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  They kept up w/an Idaho winter... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NWTerriD, Gwennedd, lunachickie

        ...and that with only part of the panel surfaces covered in solar cells.  (They weren't able to get a person to come in and custom-cut the cells to fit into the nooks and crannies of each panel, so only about two-thirds of the surface is powered.)

        The way they work is that the heaters only switch on when needed, and only heat up to a temperature just a touch above freezing.  This melts snow as it hits and the stormwater corridors allow it to drain off to the side.

        The advantages of this are twofold:  Not only does this use a surprisingly small amount of energy, it also reduces the danger of overly warming the surrounding area and thus contributing to global climate change.

        Visit http://theuptake.org/ for Minnesota news as it happens.

        by Phoenix Woman on Sun May 25, 2014 at 03:33:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How much energy (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          New Minas

          does the panel use to stay snow free during a Wisconsin winter?

          Does the constant thermal cycling have an impact on the lifetime of the panel or quality of the road surface?

          How do you clean the mud and debris off the surfaces? Slush isn't very clean.

          •  those are all valid points (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lunachickie, Gwennedd

            I expect that the roads will have to be squeegeed now and then in the winter.

            There are lots of questions about this technology, really this is just the first time we have seen something like this.  Remember the very first solar panel you ever saw?  now realize that that panel was probably a 5th generation one.

            This is the very first.  Developed in a garage under a limited budget.  

            It is a proof of concept version.  The benchmark version is not going to be available for another 2 years or so.

            Be the change that you want to see in the world

            by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 08:44:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  It really comes down to what costs more- (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cazcee, New Minas

        the chaos from a once a decade blizzard, or the cost of mostly unneeded heating coils plus the logistics of a separate assembly line. Granted, if/when they expand to the tropics, they'll be able to build a dedicated factory without the heating included.

        •  Ever heard of the "Squeegee Efftect"............ (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          New Minas, lunachickie

          of vehicle tires? How do you think the slush from the road ends up on your windshield not to mention the rest of your car?

          Tires break up and squeegee the dirt, mud and slush off the road, into the air and onto vehicles or the side of the road.

          The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation--HDT

          by cazcee on Sun May 25, 2014 at 07:37:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  The panels are replacable and movable. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lunachickie

        They just unhook the connectors and use two hooked rods to lift them like manhole covers.

        It was one of the reasons they went with the hexagon shape.

        It showed a little more how they are constructed  in the first video I saw about a month ago on

          http://www.CleanTechnica.com.

        You will have to search the archives for it.

        A fo ben, bid bont. - Welsh proverb. ( translation: If you want to be a leader, be a bridge.)

        by Gwennedd on Sun May 25, 2014 at 09:29:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Even here ... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Phoenix Woman

      in balmy southern Arizona, in the winter we get ice on bridges and shady portions of roadways and an occasional snowfall that shuts down Tucson.

      Obi Ben Ghazi to House Republicans: "Use the Farce."

      by edg on Sun May 25, 2014 at 02:35:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The frozen north budgets millions every year (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      New Minas

      for snow and ice removal. Per city.

      Graders and trucks full of salt or other chemicals cost money as does the hours clocked by municipal workers to use and repair the equipment.

      Winter lasts for 4-6 months in some places.

      That's a lot of money saved per annum.

      Not to mention what yearly salting roads does to the environment. There are other chemicals used as well, including nitrogen, and these chemicals seep into the ocean.

      A fo ben, bid bont. - Welsh proverb. ( translation: If you want to be a leader, be a bridge.)

      by Gwennedd on Sun May 25, 2014 at 09:20:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Such a tremendous video! nt (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    New Minas, PeterHug, Terre, lunachickie

    Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

    by k9disc on Sun May 25, 2014 at 10:04:21 AM PDT

  •  Generally I say Faith In Humanity = Restored (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    New Minas, RMForbes, Phoenix Woman

    When someone makes an accidental mistake. I would call this showing our good side.

    Good job Solar Roadways.

  •  Thanks for the update (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    New Minas, lunachickie, RMForbes

    It's wonderful to hear that they have exceeded their goal.

    My invisible imaginary friend is the "true" creator

    by Mr Robert on Sun May 25, 2014 at 11:26:01 AM PDT

  •  It will be good to actually see... (21+ / 0-)

    ...an extensive pilot program of this project. Until then, as I do with all "breakthroughs" in solar, I will withhold judgment.

    Don't get me wrong.

    I love the idea.

    I hope it works.

    The creators appear to have taken into consideration a wide range of the technical issues involved.

    But after 35 years of seeing many solar "breakthroughs" collapse for engineering and other reasons when commercialization is tried, I am wary of getting on the rooftop and shouting over this just yet.

    With their seed money in hand, we get to see whether this will prove to be as good as it appears that it could be.

    Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

    by Meteor Blades on Sun May 25, 2014 at 11:38:54 AM PDT

    •  As always (5+ / 0-)

      this technological solution runs against the

      "economic feasibility"
      which is really just codespeak for:
      "we are too busy funneling taxdollars into corporate welfare and defense industry projects to fund something that would provide benefit to the general population".
      the biggest issue is not going to be cost, per se, it is going to be the fact that roads are a public asset.  The U.S. is currently the only major industrial company that doesn't have government-owned electric utilities.

      Be the change that you want to see in the world

      by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 11:47:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, of the 3,000+ electric utilities in ... (6+ / 0-)

        ...the U.S., two-thirds are either government owned (including 10 federal utilities) or cooperatively owned.

        The largest utilities, by customer base, are investor owned, of course. But there are some 2,000 community-owned utilities that supply power to nearly 50 million Americans. These include some giants, like the L.A. Department of Water and Power (1.4 metered customers, 3.8 million residents served) and Seattle City Light (418,000 metered customers, 776,000 residents served. (Socialist Council Member Kshama Sawant heads the committee that oversees SCL.)

        The Long Island Power Authority is also a publicly owned utility serving 1.1 million metered customers, but since January 1, because of that fake liberal Andrew Cuomo's semi-privatization plan, the LIPA's operations are under a 10-year contract with the New Jersey based investor-owned utility, PSEG.

        Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

        by Meteor Blades on Sun May 25, 2014 at 12:47:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  federal power agencies provide (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Phoenix Woman

          1.2% of the total power sales in the country.  And this predominately for government installations.

          http://www.publicpower.org/...

          Be the change that you want to see in the world

          by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 01:13:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  however (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Phoenix Woman, ozsea1

          you are right about municipalities,  Also very exciting in the State of California is the Community Choice Aggregation movement.

          I can see the counties of Santa Rosa, Marin and Richmond/El Cerrito embracing this technology for their newly formed community power authorities.

          Be the change that you want to see in the world

          by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 01:14:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  As noted above, I will be glad to see... (4+ / 0-)

            ...an extensive pilot program succeed somewhere. Until then, I think we're all wise to wish them well, hope for the best, then wait and see how they actually perform in the real world (as opposed to the test lab).

            Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

            by Meteor Blades on Sun May 25, 2014 at 01:34:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Encouragement would be helpful (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Terre, New Minas

              Let's not just sit back and wait after we wave and wish them Godspeed, eh?

              Maybe spreading the word on the front page of this influential blog would be helpful? Odd idea, I know...

              "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

              by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 01:41:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Why give... (6+ / 0-)

                ...this particular solar breakthrough extra encouragement as opposed to the several others that have been announced in the past 12 months? Are you aware of how many such "breakthroughs" have been announced in the 36 years since I started work at the Solar Energy Research Institute?

                Solar Roadways has its seed money to get full-scale manufacturing underway. A city with a green council and/or mayor can offer itself as a test locale to see if this great concept will hold up. If it does all that is claimed for it without major problems, it will spread quickly even in the face of opposition.

                But this needs a lot of testing. How will it fare the first time a tanker truck overturns, dumps fuel and catches fire? How will it deal with semi-trucks pounding it day after day for years?

                Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                by Meteor Blades on Sun May 25, 2014 at 01:54:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That's what they need the money for (5+ / 0-)

                  And to answer your question, well? Why NOT give ALL the solar breakthroughs extra encouragement?

                  I know the Front Page isn't your purview, MB, but I am pretty sure The Daily Kos could get by with less on Those Bad Republicans and a whole fucking lot more on solar eco-breakthrough on the Front Page.

                  "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                  by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 01:58:41 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Why not encourage all of them? Because... (6+ / 0-)

                    ...a large percentage of them are not practical "breakthroughs." They don't get past that first promotional brochure not because of opposition from politicians but because of the reality of physics and engineering.

                    As for the Front Page, I've been here 11 years and have put more environmentally oriented encouragement on the Front Page and in the diaries than any single other person on this blog. I wrote my first energy pieces here in 2003 (Energy Plan: No Visionaries, Please and Energy Plan: No Visionaries, Please - Part 2), was a principal in the Energize America 2020 series and have written dozens of other Front Page pieces on energy issues.

                    (Before that, I did the same at two major newspapers, a newspaper syndicate, a leftist alternative newspaper and The Solar Law Reporter.)

                    Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                    by Meteor Blades on Sun May 25, 2014 at 02:09:36 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Then you know when it's worth highlighting and (0+ / 0-)

                      when it isn't.

                      I've been here 11 years and have put more environmentally oriented encouragement on the Front Page and in the diaries than any single other person on this blog.
                      I know that. Anyone who has spent any amount of time here knows that.

                      So you'll be adopting a "wait and see" attitude on all the environmental breakthroughs that you, personally, contribute to this blog's front page, right?  Or are you prepared to highlight one with such potential as this? To me, this qualifies, if it's passed official muster thus far.

                      Maybe you could be more clear, where this is concerned, though--I'm curious, and I imagine others share that curiosity now. What, to you, would make this particular item more than "just another impractical breakthrough"? What would make it worthy of the Front Page here?
                       

                      "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                      by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 02:18:16 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  For the record, tons of issues that ought... (5+ / 0-)

                        ...to get front page treatment here never do for all kinds of reasons, many of which have nothing to do with any specific decision not to cover them—we're all limited by time and expertise.

                        When it comes to products, and this is a product, after all, you will see almost no coverage on the Front Page. I personally think that's a smart move. Do you really want us pumping our pet products? Exceptions should be very rare, imo. This is a lot different than, say, the Steel Interstate rail system proposal, where the technology is already well-established.

                        I've already made clear what I think the next steps should be. When a few miles of a successful Solar Roadways pilot project has shown it can deal with all the concerns people have for it—cost (we already know these are higher), technical capability, ease of maintenance and replacement—then would be the time, imo, to push (from the Front Page) some local and state governments to spend the extra money it will cost to try out Solar Roadways on a larger scale. For now, all that can be said for certain is that it shows promise and many people with knowledge in the field are impressed, as Solar Roadways' awards and funding grants prove.

                        Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                        by Meteor Blades on Sun May 25, 2014 at 02:55:47 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  The Federal Highway Admin gave SR 2 R&D grants (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      lunachickie

                      And GE and other entities have also ponied up the cash for their R&D.  (In fact, the reason the panels are shaped like hexagons rather than rectangles is because FHWA engineers told them that hexagons do a better job covering uneven terrain and curves.)

                      Bear in mind that this is the Age of Austerity.  If a government agency felt so strongly about an idea that it was willing to throw some R&D money and expertise at it, that should tell us all something.

                      Go read their FAQ:  http://solarroadways.com/...

                      Visit http://theuptake.org/ for Minnesota news as it happens.

                      by Phoenix Woman on Sun May 25, 2014 at 03:41:59 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  MB is right (4+ / 0-)

                    until proven in extensive field tests or specific niche applications, this technology is still in the "potential" phase of development.

                    That being said, the real drawback is how we choose to fund these projects.

                    My work has proven that the cost of energy conservation is significantly better than new power plants, this is WITHOUT more cost due to carbon emissions.

                    If carbon emissions were factored in, then a reasonable incentive for a new high-efficiency rooftop air conditioner would be over $1,500 (roughly 20% of the total project cost)

                    Be the change that you want to see in the world

                    by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 02:13:37 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm not saying he's wrong (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      RMForbes, Phoenix Woman

                      but it seems to me that this is something that should be worth shouting from the rooftops, if the rooftop was equivalent to the Front Page of a certain influential blog.

                      the real drawback is how we choose to fund these projects
                      Of course it is! And if Big Oil has its way, you won't even get past the talking phase, let alone to the Serious Funding phase.

                      "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                      by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 02:22:52 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  I think the likely trade off here is that this (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Phoenix Woman, Meteor Blades

                  technology package almost certainly has some applications.

                  The question is - will it be as lighted walkways at amusement parks, as parking lot surfaces in strip malls, or as the future of interstate highways?

                  The fact that it's almost certain that some workable and practical results can come from funding it makes it more worthy of funding in my mind than many (although not all) other proposals.

                  “Poor people have access to American courts in the same sense that Christians thrown to lions had access to the Coliseum.” — Earl Johnson Jr., retired justice,California State Court of Appeal

                  by JesseCW on Sun May 25, 2014 at 02:18:29 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I do actually think this one is special, MB. (0+ / 0-)

                  I get where you're coming from, but usually in order to get the kind of testing you're looking for, someone somewhere has to give encouragement despite the thing not being fully tested.

                  I don't think it would be awful for us to give a little encouragement on the FP--sensibly and with suitable caveats, of course.

                  There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

                  by SouthernLiberalinMD on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:03:24 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Don't get me started on the LIPA/PSEG stuff. (0+ / 0-)

          I am unfortunately living under this deal. Ever since LILCO was turned into LIPA, utilities on Long Island have been horrendous. I can only imagine how much worse it will become now.

          I must end each day with a dose of Top Comments. A TC diary is a must for developing the calmness I need to get the required eight hours of sleep. - cohenzee

          by cohenzee on Sun May 25, 2014 at 01:41:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  In Canada the utilities are provincially owned (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        New Minas

        crown corporations, not Federally.

        A fo ben, bid bont. - Welsh proverb. ( translation: If you want to be a leader, be a bridge.)

        by Gwennedd on Sun May 25, 2014 at 09:36:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  It's the "roadways" thing that perplexes me ... (6+ / 0-)

      This technology wants to think that it's robust enough for roadways? The idea is like driving on zillions of square feet of fine jewelry. in other words, compared to any other drivable surface, it's really, really impractical.

      It might make perfect sense for walkways and plazas and hundreds of other light duty horizontal surfaces ... though the details of the base assemblies and wiring will put it orders of magnitude more expensive than top grade surfaces and solar panels combined.

      The problem we have right now is not a lack of horizontal surfaces for solar panels. So, what is this idea solving really? Some future issue?

      I kind of don't get it ... although it does have an admitted cool factor ...

    •  If they're the people I think they are (4+ / 0-)

      they've been working on this for a LONG time.

      There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun May 25, 2014 at 01:40:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Me too. I'd love to see Google or Microsoft (3+ / 0-)

      put up the cash to have these installed in their parking lots/on their campuses.

      “Poor people have access to American courts in the same sense that Christians thrown to lions had access to the Coliseum.” — Earl Johnson Jr., retired justice,California State Court of Appeal

      by JesseCW on Sun May 25, 2014 at 01:53:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  What a great idea with an awesome video! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lunachickie, New Minas, Gwennedd

    Thanks for posting this, but I'm surprised you didn't title it "Solar Freakin' Roadways!" ;)

    Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives. John Stuart Mill English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)

    by exNYinTX on Sun May 25, 2014 at 12:37:53 PM PDT

  •  If this is what it appears to be, (8+ / 0-)

    wow...amazing stuff!

    BTW, before I make my main point, can someone please thank George Takei for helping to make this thing viral initially? That's where I first heard of this, the other day--he forwarded it on the social medias and he's got millions of subscribers, and I can't imagine that didn't help. I couldn't get near that video yesterday, the site was so jammed :)

    That being said--the irony and the right-ness of the Federal--FED ER RAL--Highway Administration funding the original prototype of this thing for testing is just mind-blowing to me. FINALLY! One of Uncle Sam's Minions makes the right call, using our tax dollars. LOL! Man--if this is for real, you can expect a nasty fight to try and stop it, by some of Uncle Sam's OWNERS. I'm heartened to see that Indiegogo has reached its goal quickly, though, so apparently a lot of people agree with the (probably lone-) human being at the FHA that made such an amazing initial decision, helping this company get to Phase II. This is awesome--and the video pitch for $$ is fabulous, I wish I had some money to give them :)

    "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

    by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 12:55:08 PM PDT

  •  Show me the math (6+ / 0-)

    I'd love to see much more private and public sector dollars going to renewable energy, but:

    As an engineer, I am extremely skeptical.  Where are the numbers?  Not just the total manufacturing/environmental/installation cost, but the real, measured efficiency and power production numbers. How many watt-hours will we get on I-10 in Arizona, I-94 in Michigan, and the totally full Walmart marking lot?  Also, show me traction numbers and snow-plow resistance. What is the tire/car noise driving on this surface?  

    Over on George Takei's Facebook page, the nay-sayers are denounced as either oil industry pawns or just gloomy pessimists. Total bummer, nay-sayers.  Reality: if there are real, scientific, economic, fatal flaws, then your happy-dance optimism won't do squat.  Not all nay-sayers are wrong.

    I wager that the total costs greatly exceed more practical alternatives.  I wager that the real power/efficiency is abysmal.  

    •  The "totally full" Walmart parking lot is never (4+ / 0-)

      more than 60% covered with cars.  When every slot is full.

      Which isn't the norm.

      The big gap between expectations and hard facts that I see here is that a lot of people just don't understand how much energy is lost when have to step-up for long distance transport of electricity.

      Yes, these would be awesome to power the Wal Mart during the day.  But the lonely stretches of the 1-70 aren't going to power Denver.

      That doesn't mean it's not workable, or not a good idea.  It means that it's being oversold - more so by hyper-excited fans who just saw something really cool on-line than by the creators to be honest.

      “Poor people have access to American courts in the same sense that Christians thrown to lions had access to the Coliseum.” — Earl Johnson Jr., retired justice,California State Court of Appeal

      by JesseCW on Sun May 25, 2014 at 02:13:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  your comparative analysis would (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pale Jenova, Gwennedd

      have to include the following

      1. Money saved by reduced repaving repairs (assume long panel life)
      2.  Money produced by selling electricity directly to electric cars on a per mile basis (offering unlimited driving distances for EVs)
      3.  Money saved from reduced ice salting and snow plowing

      plus the ancillary benefits

      1.  Money saved by generating carbon-free electricity (carbon tax $150.00 per ton of CO2
      2.  lives saved by reduced traffic hazard due to obstruction and ice/snow conditions
      3.  reduced costs of water treatment and environmental waterway destruction
      4.  Reduced long-term maintenance costs of above-ground power lines.

      plus other ancillary benefits that smart roads may yet produce

      1.  auto driven cars
      2.  electric powered auto driven public transportation busses
      3.  real time accident reporting (by the road)
      4.  other benefits that always happen when a new technology changes everything (i.e. the internet)

      Be the change that you want to see in the world

      by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 02:25:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Inductive charging isn't here for autos. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pale Jenova, rduran

        People have been trying for 100 years.

        That doesn't mean it will never happen, but it shouldn't be used as a selling point for solar roadways.  Right now, there's no "unlimited range" available.

        They do, of course, have a hell of a lot of other benefits, most of which you listed.

        “Poor people have access to American courts in the same sense that Christians thrown to lions had access to the Coliseum.” — Earl Johnson Jr., retired justice,California State Court of Appeal

        by JesseCW on Sun May 25, 2014 at 02:31:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It is proven technology (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RMForbes, Gwennedd

          already being implemented

          http://www.newscientist.com/...

          http://www.pluglesspower.com/

          http://www.autoevolution.com/...

          Wireless Charging for Electric Vehicles Explained

          Be the change that you want to see in the world

          by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 02:54:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Plugless power won't be as efficient an energy (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rduran

            transfer operation as a direct, wired connection since the device depends on transformer electromagnetic energy transfer....any use of a system designed as a transformer for electrical energy transfer will be inherently less efficient than a direct wired connection to the vehicle because of the the heat generated in primary and secondary of the transformer.

            In other words, the decreased efficiency of transfer and energy losses from heat from transformer operations is an energy penalty for the convenience of the transfer....and the energy penalty can be eliminated completely by using a direct, wired connection.

            •  line losses are typically (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ozsea1, RMForbes, Gwennedd

              7 to 10 percent

              please stop posting on this diary.

              Be the change that you want to see in the world

              by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 04:48:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  in other words (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                RMForbes, Gwennedd

                you are threadjacking and trolling.   You bring up "problems" that are not related to the discussion.  You want to coopt the discussion for reasons that do not contribute to the benefit of the discussion.

                You worries about "glass shortages" and inefficiency while charging cars WHILE THEY ARE DRIVING.

                is completely missing the point.

                These road will generate more energy than the U.S. uses.  It won't be an issue if there is inefficiency, however, of course since it is distributed generation there won't be line losses.

                You act like climate change isn't going to kill your grandchildren.

                It is.

                Be the change that you want to see in the world

                by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 05:02:05 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, I am not trolling nor am I thread-jacking.... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  pigpaste

                  I'm trying to get you to address the physical science
                  and engineering legitimacy of what you are proposing and advocating in the diary.

                  It is pretty clear that your boosterism for the concept of solar roads isn't a legitimate statement of energy stewardship or civil and electrical engineering because the energy consequences of the operation of the system being advocated are simply unstated and/or not realistic or practical engineering.

                  You seem to have no understanding of the laws of conservation of mass, conservation of energy and the second law of thermodynamics in making these claims.

                  Your diary contains no coherent reason why conventional solar generation techniques should be rejected in favor of investment in your plans for solar roads.  

                  Practical implementation of your solar roads concept would practically mean that a road substrate to support your solar modules be incorporated for any partical attempt at such a technology in real world conditions.  This would mean that most everything done today in building concrete or asphalt roads sufficient to take traditional loads (i.e. 80000 lb trucks on the interstate) would still have to be constructed under the solar modules.....with no less energy/materials/cost demand as we presently have with existing road construction techniques.  

                  Nothing about your solar road concept is economically viable from the practical standpoint of states and localities constructing roads.  

                  In other words very little here is suitable for Democrats in making a governance decision on matters of energy, roads, construction and engineering.

                  If you are advocating in the area of energy, roads, construction and engineering from the standpoint of a serious proposal for Democrats in governance, then you should be practicing serious environmental, electrical and civil engineering analysis of both the vision, the technology, the operational and physical limitations and the practical ability to implement the technology selection....but that is not what you're doing in this diary.....your diary is not a path to stewardship governance and it isn't a validly stated basis for changing or creating new public policy.

                  Instead, all that's here is a happy--dance conflation and strong promotion for investment in this technology without sufficient technology transfer review, and the materials, environmental and energy consequences of the selected technology.  

                  •  bullshit (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    lunachickie, RMForbes

                    Listen bub, you don't have a clue.  You assert that fracking is a good thing in most of your comments here.  You are a paid troll as far as I am concerned.

                    You have not posited a single technically significant point.

                    you are worried about running out of sand for glass?

                    we can use recycled glass

                    You are worried about energy supply for manufacturing?  

                    the sun shines down more energy on planet earth each hour than all of humanity uses in a full year.

                    you pretend like you understand why there isn't enough resources and energy to make this concept a reality. . .

                    you fail to acknowledge that the efficiency of solar panels is doubling every 8 years.

                    you fail in every contrarian assertion, every one just so happens to be a line toe for the fossil fuel industry. . .

                    I wonder why that is?

                    Troll.

                    Be the change that you want to see in the world

                    by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 06:41:54 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You said: (0+ / 0-)
                      You assert that fracking is a good thing in most of your comments here.
                      Nope.  I'm strong advocate of environmental enforcement actions against the oil and gas industry, and I've participated in actions to enforce environmental law against not only the oil and gas industry, but several other industries as well.  
                      You are a paid troll as far as I am concerned
                      .

                      You are lying with that statement and engaging in an unfounded and false statement.

                      You have not posited a single technically significant point.
                      That is a denial of actual reality.
                      you are worried about running out of sand for glass?
                      we can use recycled glass
                      You are the one saying that the technology is suitable or could be suitable to replace interstate highways.  Solar modules that are primarily constructed of glass that are deployed in a massive buildout you're claiming is feasible here and elsewhere means a very large increase required in the production of glass in the United States.  You disregard this reality in your claims.   The production of this goes with considerable environmental and energy consequences in the form of fossil fuels used to make the glass and sand mining to create the glass.   Present sources of cullet (recycled glass form) are allocated to present levels of glass production in the United States.   All of the demand for a future solar highway made primary from glass would be new demands in the market for glass.

                      If you think sand mining is not a controversial and high impact operation, come to Michigan and Wisconsin to educate yourself for fully about this natural resource issue.

                      the sun shines down more energy on planet earth each hour than all of humanity uses in a full year.  you pretend like you understand why there isn't enough resources and energy to make this concept a reality. . .
                      No, the problem is that you don't have any quantitative or qualitative understanding of what the technical, practical, economic and engineering limitations are of your selected technology and your advocacy for it.
                      you fail in every contrarian assertion, every one just so happens to be a line toe for the fossil fuel industry. . .

                      I wonder why that is?

                      Troll.

                      Lies.
                      •  You said: (0+ / 0-)
                        No, the problem is that you don't have any quantitative or qualitative understanding of what the technical, practical, economic and engineering limitations are of your selected technology and your advocacy for it.
                        Honestly, you've made this appear to be far more than a "hobby" for you.

                        One more time--the first line in this diary makes it abundantly clear what the diarist was doing--they are reporting a successful advocacy effort.

                        Solar Roadways has raised over $1,000,000 dollars of seed money for the development of solar powered roads, pathways, parking lots and public use spaces.
                        Far less than the advocacy you've been doing all over the place--advocacy that appears to do nothing other than to try and discourage others from even discussing such possibilities.

                        Hobby, much?

                        "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                        by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 08:23:11 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  When you said (0+ / 0-)

                        This

                        I knew everything I ever needed to know about you.

                        In your letter signed by scientists I note that

                        none of them appear to be hydrologists, geologists or geophysicists.  

                        You do have one engineer....the one that gets grants from the Park Foundation to work with Josh Fox on Gasland activities.

                        Nothing in the letter can be considered to be a scientific consensus opinion of hydrologists on whether hydraulic fracturing operations cause groundwater contamination.

                        by LakeSuperior on Sat May 24, 2014 at 09:50:59 PM PDT

                        and you call yourself an environmentalist I know your ilk.  You need to get lost, scumbag.

                        Be the change that you want to see in the world

                        by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 08:52:59 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  without reserve (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    RMForbes, Gwennedd

                    you pretend to have a point but you are asserting complete falsehoods.

                    and every false hood happens to be a fossil fuel industry talking point.

                    tell me again why you love frakking.

                    troll.

                    These panels will work under typical highway conditions and generate electricity for 20 years.

                    The glass has a hardness and resilience close to steel.

                    Tell me what you know about the threat of global warming.

                    how bad is it going to be for your grandchildren, in your understanding?

                    because I know.

                    and it is actually worth about 20% of our total gross national product EVERY YEAR to reconstitute our society into a carbon free existence.

                    because if we don't

                    your grandchildren are dead.

                    Be the change that you want to see in the world

                    by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 06:46:25 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Bullshit a third time (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Gwennedd
                    what you are proposing and advocating in the diary.
                    The diarist is doing no such thing. Go back and reread the first several sentences of this diary.
                    Solar Roadways has raised over $1,000,000 dollars of seed money for the development of solar powered roads, pathways, parking lots and public use spaces.
                    You're ascribing imaginary advocacy here.  

                    You sure are passionate about this "hobby" that Roger Fox seems to think you have.

                    "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                    by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 07:26:35 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  You are trolling and thread jacking! (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    New Minas

                    And I support New Midas' request that you leave.

                    A fo ben, bid bont. - Welsh proverb. ( translation: If you want to be a leader, be a bridge.)

                    by Gwennedd on Sun May 25, 2014 at 10:18:57 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  7% for AC, 3% for DC (0+ / 0-)

                .................expect us......................... FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.

                by Roger Fox on Sun May 25, 2014 at 05:42:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Those sound like line loss on wired lines (0+ / 0-)

                  ....what I was talking about was electrical energy loss in attempting to make a wireless connection for purposes of electrical energy transfer with an electric vehicle (which isn't possible in any DC system) versus the no-loss means of a direct wired connection to an electric vehicle for charging purposes.

                  A wireless power transfer to an electric vehicle will always be a consumer loser and needless electricity waste compared to making the same amount of power transfer through a wired connection while recharging.

                  The reason is the heat loss implicit in both the primary and secondary of the wireless transformer and other dielectric heating (and thus energy losses, during a wireless power transfer).

                •  Uh, (0+ / 0-)

                  hobby, much?

                  "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                  by lunachickie on Sun May 25, 2014 at 07:23:51 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Is that per mile? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  lunachickie

                  What voltage are you talking about? I don't think that is right at all. I know a bit about electronics having studied electronics and physics in High School and College. I think you are talking about the loss of going through a A/C step up/down transformer because basic Ohm's and Kirchhoff's Laws tells us there would be a much higher line loss in D/C than A/C.

                  Really don't mind if you sit this one out. My words but a whisper -- your deafness a SHOUT. I may make you feel but I can't make you think..Jethro Tull

                  by RMForbes on Sun May 25, 2014 at 09:31:50 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  HVDC is the choice of Utilities for long distance (0+ / 0-)

                    transmission. IIRC 20 miles or more. All offshore wind farms in the world use Marine HVDC.

                    The transmission loss rate is easily found on google....

                    However, for your convenience

                    http://www.siemens.com/...

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                     photo lowerlosses.jpg

                     photo hvdc-benefits-4-b1.jpg

                     photo ept201105067-01_072dpi.jpg

                     photo OffshoreGrid_map-direct-design1.png

                     photo Atlantic-Wind-Connection.png

                    .................expect us......................... FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.

                    by Roger Fox on Tue May 27, 2014 at 06:20:40 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  This makes sense knowing the physics of how (0+ / 0-)

                      electricity flows through a wire. The reason that stranded wire works better for A/C is the electricity flows more on the surface of the wire and stranded wire has far more surface area. D/C uses the entire volume of the wire and therefore can move higher volumes of energy. So at these higher voltages you are correct. However, HVDC would be far harder to handle than HVAC and any gains in transmission losses would likely be lost in the conversion back into A/C so that the voltage can be stepped up and down using inductive transformers.

                      Unless there exists a new technology that can step up/down D/C voltage of which I'm not aware, the overall loss in using HVDC would still be much higher. But, I can understand how HVDC does address some distribution issues. The same problems that I believe could be better addressed by greatly decentralizing power production so that every community is energy self sufficient. That too would eliminate any energy bottlenecks.

                      Really don't mind if you sit this one out. My words but a whisper -- your deafness a SHOUT. I may make you feel but I can't make you think..Jethro Tull

                      by RMForbes on Wed May 28, 2014 at 01:43:48 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Follow the links (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        New Minas

                        DC hardware has about a 1.6% loss. Your understanding seems to be based on outdated info, at least 20 years old.

                        You said:

                        HVDC does address some distribution issues
                        No, AC is for distribution, DC is for long distance transmission. I understand the appeal of a decentralized generation capacity, but wind, specifically offshore has the cheapest LCOE at 3.3 cents per Kw. Offshore projects like the Atlantic Wind Connection will support 1700 4mw turbines in stage 1, 10-20 miles offshore, this area can generate 60+ gigs.

                        Because of these factors, these sorts of projects are attracting lots of venture capital. At least for the foreseeable future wind will be deployed in large gigawatt swaths, and HVDC or UHVDC will move power from where its generated to where its needed.

                        As solar PV, thin film and solar siding and roof shingles become more efficient, the LCOE will come down further, this will enable solar the generate in 12 hour windows instead of 5-6 hour windows, at that point we will see decentralized generation being developed at a large scale.

                        .................expect us......................... FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.

                        by Roger Fox on Wed May 28, 2014 at 05:54:37 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You completely ignore the loss in converting (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          New Minas

                          D/C to A/C. It doesn't just happen magically.

                          I am familiar with phase/frequency matching techniques that can convert D/C and different frequency A/C sources to a single consistent A/C output. My last boss, Fred Forbes Jr (no relation), was in on the design team that created that system for the DOD in the early 60's. But even that system would not convert D/C to A/C without some loss and would work better at the point of production where the output of solar panels, wind turbines, storage batteries and the grid are matched for farm, home or business use. Also, transmission lines for long distance transmission are part of the power distribution system...they are not in anyway separate.  

                          As interesting as this technology is, I still believe we should be working on developing smaller scale production systems so that communities, neighborhoods, businesses small or large, apartment buildings, farms/ranches and/or single family homes could be energy independent or even energy entrepreneurs. I would find that technology far more exciting and valuable.

                          Really don't mind if you sit this one out. My words but a whisper -- your deafness a SHOUT. I may make you feel but I can't make you think..Jethro Tull

                          by RMForbes on Wed May 28, 2014 at 07:39:25 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Try reading : 1.6% (0+ / 0-)

                            No I did not ignore the loss for converting DC to AC. I offered the info for you twice, once with a link the second time I spelled it out.

                            BuBye.

                            .................expect us......................... FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.

                            by Roger Fox on Thu May 29, 2014 at 01:52:01 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, I read that but you don't understand (0+ / 0-)

                            That's 1.6% above the losses that are lost in the A/C voltage step up/down transformers which are still necessary. When you add the 1.6% from the D/C to A/C to the line losses caused by the resistance (ohms) of the wire/cable it is only a bit more efficient. Contrary to the Siemens fact sheet propaganda which invalidly separates the long range transmission lines from the local distribution systems, HVDC is not all that more efficient except in a small range of applications.

                            Like I said many times, it would be far more efficient to develop small scale local production technology to decentralize power production and storage than spend money on this technology to transmit the power hundreds of miles. The money would be better spent on small local production instead.  

                            Really don't mind if you sit this one out. My words but a whisper -- your deafness a SHOUT. I may make you feel but I can't make you think..Jethro Tull

                            by RMForbes on Thu May 29, 2014 at 04:32:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  ding ding ding!!! (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Roger Fox

                          RF gets the prize.

                          HVDC is for trans state conduction, not for distributed generation.   7-10% line losses is the standard for every utility in the country.

                          Be the change that you want to see in the world

                          by New Minas on Wed May 28, 2014 at 10:02:25 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Provided many sources (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            New Minas

                            I also provided the hardware losses, whether DC to AC or AC to DC, its the same 1.6%.

                            Utilities world wide have been building HVDC lines for long distance transmission for 20 years, I guess RMForbes thinks they are all wrong.....

                            Sigh.

                            .................expect us......................... FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.

                            by Roger Fox on Thu May 29, 2014 at 01:55:32 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

      •  you said (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rduran, kwong
        3.  Money saved from reduced ice salting and snow plowing

        This is the most unrealistic claim you've made.

        The amount heat input as electricity required to make a viable system of snow removal and termination of salt use would be large.

        To raise the surface temperature enough to melt snow over the panel, large amounts of heat input would be required to warm the entire panel unit well above 32 deg F under all manner of ambient temperature conditions, and also includes heat input that must warm up substrates as well.  [Which also raises the issue of still needing concrete or asphalt underneath the solar roadway panels for proper mechanical support.]

    •  Show me the FAQ. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Terre

      Oh, wait. Here it is.

      Obi Ben Ghazi to House Republicans: "Use the Farce."

      by edg on Sun May 25, 2014 at 03:00:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  From the FAQ (0+ / 0-)
        How much will your panels cost?

        We are not yet able to give numbers on cost. We are still in the midst of our Phase II contract with the Federal Highway Administration and we'll be analyzing our prototype costs near the end of our contract which ends in July, 2014. Afterward, we'll be able to do a production-style cost analysis.

        Still, they tried:

        Bottom line, simple arithmetic shows that covering 8e10 square meters of impervious surfaces with 1.2 square meter panels that can convert peak 230 W for an average four hours a day yields upwards 21 trillion kilowatt-hours a year.  This is the same sort of basic calculation that results in phrases like "covering Kansas with solar panels."  This is about twice US generation.  It also has nothing to do with whether or not this plan is feasible.  We already know that if we throw up enough panels we'll have more power than we know what to do with.

        The question is cost.  Solar Roadways' current numbers sheet doesn't go into that, but thank you Wayback Machine.  At one point they were talking about $10,000 panels.  

        That's $8064.50 per square meter.

        That's $653 trillion for all 8e10 square meters of surface.  

        So some skepticism is in order.

    •  Here are the FAQ and Numbers pages (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rduran

      Visit http://theuptake.org/ for Minnesota news as it happens.

      by Phoenix Woman on Sun May 25, 2014 at 04:02:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I've seen these folks before (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JesseCW, New Minas, lunachickie

    if this is the guy who is a vet who got back from Iran in the 70s and has been working on this since.

    This is the most awesome thing ever, with the one caveat that, being a "smart" surface, it will probably be exploited by the NSA et al. But fuck, so is everything else. We might as well create a survivable future while they're doing their fucking illegal unconstitutional and completely contemptible spying on us.

    So here's to these two amazing intrepid inventors.

    America invented solar in the first place, just like we invented the electric car. It would be nice if, one of these days, our amazing talent for invention could be put to the service of humanity rather than being throttled by a corrupt political, financial, and corporate elite.

    There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

    by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun May 25, 2014 at 01:34:42 PM PDT

  •  These two folks are worth a thousand (5+ / 0-)

    activists like me.

    They spent the last 30 years inventing the future, while I pleaded with our government to direct its resources away from a bad future and toward a good one.

    However, there's probably a place for both of us, as great inventions have been strangled by political malfeasance and corporate greed before.

    There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

    by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun May 25, 2014 at 01:36:17 PM PDT

  •  Including concentrating solar power in solar -- (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    New Minas

    it keeps power going into the evening!

    © cai Visit 350.org to join the fight against global warming.

    by cai on Sun May 25, 2014 at 01:57:06 PM PDT

  •  Love this video (0+ / 0-)

    "They're solar freakin' roadways!"

    The list of problems this would solve is immense.

    But it won't happen here first--the rest of the world will have to drag the US kicking and screaming out of the dead dinosaur age. (Well, Saudi Arabia won't help either.)

    And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

    by Pale Jenova on Sun May 25, 2014 at 03:21:34 PM PDT

  •  I also want to see nuclear and hydrolox (0+ / 0-)

    I don't think, however, I'll see Solar Roadways.  

  •  Short term (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lunachickie

    I can imagine a lot of applications of these panels outside of roadways.  The first thing that came to mind was using them in parking lots, driveways, sidewalks or other similar areas to generate power for businesses, offices, and manufacturing.

    Like any new technology, the first applications are usually in a relatively small scale setting until the cost benefit analysis proves it to be economically feasible.  I have lived in the era when the first computers took up whole rooms and cost a fortune to purchase only to see how much more we can do with our smart phones.  I remember the first pocket calculators costing hundreds of dollars and now they practically give them away.

    Being able to envision something like these panels and their applicable use on a large scale is what visionaries are made of.  It may not be tomorrow or even in 10 or 20 years, but some day these panels or something similar will probably be the norm in many places.  Science is so exciting in that way.

    I hope we will see a reasonable scale demonstration project of this technology soon so we can look for more projects in the future.

    "I don't want to run the empire, I want to bring it down!" ~ Dr. Cornel West "It was a really naked declaration of imperialism." ~ Jeremy Scahill on Obama's speech to the UN

    by gulfgal98 on Sun May 25, 2014 at 04:16:29 PM PDT

  •  George Takei (0+ / 0-)

    George pushed this on Facebook. Since the man has over 7,000,000 followers now it would be interesting to know how many of his fans contributed.

    "A dreamer is one who can only find his way by moonlight, and his punishment is that he sees the dawn before the rest of the world." Oscar Wilde

    by michelewln on Sun May 25, 2014 at 04:28:52 PM PDT

  •  Dumbest idea I've heard in years (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rduran, kwong, Ozy, ferg

    First let me say that I am (despite my moniker) a huge proponent of renewable energy sources.  Particularly wind, and I am also very excited about solar.

    But I am an engineer, and I find this to be absolutely ridiculous.

    Let me explain: A solar road turns the road into two things, a road and a solar collector.  Now, if we were running out of space, that would be a GREAT idea.  But the plain simple truth is that we have ALL KINDS of areas that do not yet have solar collectors on them, that could.  For example: about 99% of the roofs in the country.

    Solar is plagued by the cost of the facilities to collect the sunlight.  It's all about getting that cost per square meter DOWN low enough to compete against cheap fossil fuels.  ANYTHING that increases the cost of a square meter of surface area is going to REDUCE the likelihood of it being economical.

    So, why on earth put your solar collector on the ROAD and therefore have to engineer it to be able to withstand the impact of an 18 wheeler at 60 miles per hour?  Not to mention the difficulty keeping it clean, which is important for efficiency.

    The combined cost of a normal road and a completely separate solar collector of the same area is going to be FAR less than the cost of a solar road.

    $1,000,000 wasted.  Oh well!

    Ted Cruz: The second coming of Christ, but not Reagan (yet).

    by nuketeacher on Sun May 25, 2014 at 05:57:33 PM PDT

  •  Take them to Vegas (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    New Minas

    They should be doing a pilot in Las Vegas.  It seems like this was a technology made for Vegas.
    Can you imagine the buzz?

  •  The plugless power video (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    New Minas

    Says that EV owners know what a hassle plugging your car in is.

    What!?!

    I have an EV.  I plug it in when I park it.  It's very easy.

    And I never have the hassle of going to the gas station.  I wake up in the morning, and the car is charged.

    The plug-less system probably costs 1000's of dollars.  Save yourself a lot of money and just plug it in.  It's easy.

    Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

    by yet another liberal on Sun May 25, 2014 at 06:53:39 PM PDT

    •  but can you charge it (0+ / 0-)

      while you are driving it cross country?

      Be the change that you want to see in the world

      by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 09:05:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You won't need to (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        New Minas

        I think batteries are almost good enough already to do the job.

        I figure if you have a battery with a 600 mile range that can recharge overnight then you have a machine that can go anywhere.

        Because if you drive 60 mph for 10 hours, that's a full day and within range.  Then you plug it in overnight and start over the next day.

        Republicans: Taking the country back ... to the 19th century

        by yet another liberal on Sun May 25, 2014 at 09:19:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  that is a great point (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lunachickie

          but there is something just SEXY about being able to recharge while you are driving.

          think of it, 1 mile of solar road out of every 10 miles

          unlimited driving for every electric vehicle

          at 1/5th the cost of gasoline.

          Be the change that you want to see in the world

          by New Minas on Sun May 25, 2014 at 11:35:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Innovation is hard, but we can do hard stuff. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gwennedd

    Starting with some prototypes here and there and there and testing it out makes sense.

    No doubt, as with anything, refinements and improvement will have to be made along the way...

    Or it could turn out to be a total failure.

    The concept is appealing...would love to see some concrete and paving guys get some competition.

    •  We won't know unless we try, of course! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      akmk
      Innovation is hard, but we can do hard stuff.
      There are some, however, who think we should just coast along, using the methods we've refined over the last 70-100 years.

      It's time to Move Forward, and let the Fossil Fuelies rot in their own hubris.

      "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

      by lunachickie on Mon May 26, 2014 at 06:49:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Or perform the calculations (0+ / 0-)

        Which from a cost perspective aren't looking so hot.

        •  Oh, yes of course-- (0+ / 0-)

          money rules, to some of you. It's all about Showing Profit!

          Yes, do keep digging.

          "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

          by lunachickie on Mon May 26, 2014 at 07:00:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

            •  Show us the math (0+ / 0-)

              do show detail.

              That should give you a hobby in the short-term...

              "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

              by lunachickie on Mon May 26, 2014 at 07:05:33 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Easy. (0+ / 0-)

                Total square footage of impervious surfaces (A_s): 8e10 m^2
                Panel area (A_p): 13.4 m^2
                Cost per panel (C_p): $10,000

                C_t = A_s / A_p * C_p
                      = $59.7 trillion

                •  OK, now what? (0+ / 0-)

                  Does your math demonstrate that these people should simply stop all their work now?

                  Oh, nevermind, it's about time for the Precious Trope of The Reality Based Blog Ruling All, and just shut this shit down right now, LOL!
                   

                  "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

                  by lunachickie on Mon May 26, 2014 at 07:17:35 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  My math indicates (0+ / 0-)

                    that we won't be seeing much of anything from Solar Roadways.  

                    •  change your costs (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Gwennedd

                      to $500.00 per panel.

                      That is what will happen when we decide to utilize this technology in an urban renewal/work relief/global warming mitigation strategy.

                      We will fund manufacturing centers all over the country and, using government funding, this technology will work to modernize the electric grid, electrify transportation, and remove above ground power lines, through all of the united states in a 10-year decarbonization plan.

                      because global warming is real and if we DON'T do this, then your children are DEAD.

                      seriously, if we don't significantly mitigate emissions of carbon dioxide and get off of fossil fuels, today's children will experience significantly reduced lifespans.

                      Be the change that you want to see in the world

                      by New Minas on Mon May 26, 2014 at 04:07:19 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  in addition (0+ / 0-)

                        the 10,000 figure was a 12 foot panel.

                        Be the change that you want to see in the world

                        by New Minas on Mon May 26, 2014 at 04:08:12 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Solar Roadways or death, huh? (0+ / 0-)

                        There are tens of thousands of firms working in PV manufacturing and solar power generation.  Just because one fails, or just because one turns out to be little more than vapor, doesn't mean there aren't fine alternatives to pursue.

                        The question here is whether SRP is a scam, an honest--though blue sky--effort, or viable.  At a first approximation, we can rule out the third option.  I'm inclined to rule out the second given an Indiegogo campaign absent better documentation.  I'm not going to drop their own reported price by two orders of magnitude just to make the math work, and at this point I want to know a hell of a lot more including their anticipated figures for charge rate, heat load, and a real figure for mean time to failure for panels.  Short of that, I'm not sending these guys a single penny; I'll recommend to anyone who brings it up to do the same.

                        •  At this point it is (0+ / 0-)

                          a potential technology.  Your determination of non viability is of course, completely false, since you have neither the economic or technical information to make that determination.  IN addition, this is a startup company with a "proof of concept" design.

                          the final version of this technology will look much different.

                          When we put as much money into this technology as we have put into designing a new fighter jet, then we will see panels that pay for themselves and last 50 years.

                          whether you want to contribute or not is your call, whether you believe that you have all the information to claim that they are unviable is a stark falsehood and self-deception.

                          I'd give it another 10 years and my measly $20.00 contribution isn't going to set me back at all!

                          Be the change that you want to see in the world

                          by New Minas on Tue May 27, 2014 at 09:15:59 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I have Solar Roadways' "numbers" (0+ / 0-)

                            And by "viable," we're not talking about the technology (nothing new has been invented here), but whether system they propose actually works.  We already know that solar can generate entire orders of magnitude more power than we currently consume assuming you lay down enough panels.  That's why the entire first half of their numbers rag is handwaving; they could've just said "give me 8e10 square meters and somebody else's PVs and I'll give you tens of trillions of kilowatt-hours of electricity."  Any solar power company could say that.

  •  I do worry about one thing my boyfriend brought (0+ / 0-)

    up--

    if they're super reflective or lit up isn't that going to be difficult and distracting for drivers? One of the few good things about asphalt is that it's non-reflective.

    We need lots of testing. Hope the million dollars helps with that.

    There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

    by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue May 27, 2014 at 02:38:54 PM PDT

  •  Wow. 6 people who come into a diary (0+ / 0-)

    just to say in the poll that they don't care.

    There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

    by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue May 27, 2014 at 02:39:38 PM PDT

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