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(This post first appeared for Memorial Day in 2014.)

A member of U.S. Army honor guard stretches out a flag before placing it at the headstone of a grave at Arlington National Cemetery near Washington, May 26, 2011. The United States will commemorate Memorial Day this weekend. REUTERS/Jason Reed
A member of U.S. Army honor guard stretches out a flag before placing it at the headstone of a grave at Arlington National Cemetery near Washington.
A group of high school students from Hawaii prepare to float lanterns during a ceremony marking remembrance and reflection, held by the Shinnyo-en Buddhist organization, honoring victims of war, famine, and natural disasters on Memorial Day at Ala Moana beach park in Honolulu, Hawaii May 27, 2013. REUTERS/Hugh Gentry
A group of high school students prepare to float lanterns during a ceremony marking remembrance and reflection, held by the Shinnyo-en Buddhist organization, honoring victims of war, famine, and natural disasters on Memorial Day at Ala Moana Beach Park in Honolulu, Hawaii.
More below the fold ...

Two-time Memory Champion and U.S. Navy veteran Ron White pauses to reflect for a moment as he adds the names of more than 2,000 fallen military personnel who served in the war in Afghanistan to a fifty-foot (15 metre) wall at Chase Field during the Memorial Day MLB doubleheader game between the Arizona Diamondbacks and Texas Rangers in Phoenix, Arizona, May 27, 2013. REUTERS/Ralph D. Freso
Two-time Memory Champion and U.S. Navy veteran Ron White pauses to reflect for a moment as he adds the names of more than 2,000 fallen military personnel who served in the war in Afghanistan to a fifty-foot (15 metre) wall at Chase Field.
A pedestrian carrying an umbrella walks through a Memorial Day display of United States flags on the Boston Common in Boston, Massachusetts May 23, 2013.  According to the Massachusetts Military Heroes Fund, the flags are planted on the Common for fallen Massachusetts service members at the Memorial Day holiday. REUTERS/Brian Snyder
A pedestrian carrying an umbrella walks through a Memorial Day display of United States flags on the Boston Common in Boston, Massachusetts.
Members of a veteran's group release balloons for the Agent Orange Memorial for those affected by the chemical agent in Vietnam at a Memorial Day Ceremony at the South Florida National Cemetery in Lake Worth, Florida May 27, 2013. REUTERS/Joe Skipper
Members of a veteran's group release balloons for the Agent Orange Memorial for those affected by the chemical agent in Vietnam at a Memorial Day Ceremony at the South Florida National Cemetery in Lake Worth, Florida.
A soldier from the Third U.S. Infantry Regiment (The Old Guard) carries flags to be placed beside graves at Arlington National Cemetery in Virginia May 23, 2013. The annual
A soldier from the Third U.S. Infantry Regiment (The Old Guard) carries flags to be placed beside graves at Arlington National Cemetery in Virginia.
Jeff Lee of Lantana, Florida, leans against the gravestone of his father, Frank Lee, during a Memorial Day ceremony at the South Florida National Cemetery in Lake Worth, Florida May 27, 2013. REUTERS/Joe Skipper
Jeff Lee of Lantana, Florida, leans against the gravestone of his father, Frank Lee, during a Memorial Day ceremony at the South Florida National Cemetery in Lake Worth, Florida.
Young girls wave American flags as they cheer hundreds of thousands of motorcyclists in Fairfax, Virginia, gathering on Memorial Day weekend for the 26th Annual Rolling Thunder Rally to remember POWs and MIAs from America's wars, in Washington, May 26, 2013.   REUTERS/Mike Theiler
Young girls wave American flags as they cheer hundreds of thousands of motorcyclists in Fairfax, Virginia, gathering on Memorial Day weekend for the 26th Annual Rolling Thunder Rally to remember POWs and MIAs from America's wars, in Washington.
A girl plays in front of the memorial hall, where names of fallen U.S. soldiers are recorded on the walls, after a Memorial Day ceremony at the Manila American Cemetery and Memorial in Taguig City, south of Manila May 26, 2013.. REUTERS/Cheryl Ravelo
A girl plays in front of the memorial hall, where names of fallen U.S. soldiers are recorded on the walls, after a Memorial Day ceremony at the Manila American Cemetery and Memorial in Taguig City, south of Manila, Philippines.
Flags and roses decorate graves in Section 60, where many members of the military killed in Iraq and Afghanistan are buried, during Memorial Day observances at Arlington National Cemetery in Arlington, Virginia, May 27, 2013. REUTERS/Jonathan Ernst
Flags and roses decorate graves in Section 60, where many members of the military killed in Iraq and Afghanistan are buried, during Memorial Day observances at Arlington National Cemetery in Arlington, Virginia.
Items are left on a grave in Section 60 at Arlington National Cemetery on Memorial Day in Arlington, VA, May 30, 2011.  REUTERS/Joshua Roberts
Items are left on a grave in Section 60 at Arlington National Cemetery on Memorial Day in Arlington, VA.
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Comment Preferences

  •   Gotta Love Them♥ (22+ / 0-)
    Gov't And Social Services Links For Our Marines♥ All Our ♥Troops And ♥Veterans
    Video is  loud. You might want to turn your sound down.

    Momma's take their daughters in whenever we go out♥

    Brought To You By That Crazed Sociologist/Media Fanatic rebel ga Be The Change You Want To See In The World! Gandhi

    by rebel ga on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:08:09 AM PDT

  •  hey/kos! (10+ / 0-)

    decent wages don't eliminate jobs. Republicans eliminate jobs; and workers, and prospects, and then excuse it all and call for more austerity. there is no end to their ignorant, arrogant avarice. only political dinosaurs support their treachery.

    by renzo capetti on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:09:31 AM PDT

  •  Hypocritial Support of Vets (4+ / 8-)

    In general, all of America loves the WWII vet, and the Gulf War 1 & 2 and Afghan vets.  However, in general, most of the Vietnam vets (who were really spit on when they returned from Vietnam-those stories are true) and the Korean vets (let's face it, name one US battle in Korea and I will kiss your butt) are ignored completely.  Bin Laden, when he struck the Towers, knew the US would blindly strike out in anger and unleash holy hell.  We succeeded in doing this.  But don't tell me that every soldier who went to Iraq or Afghanistan is a hero, unless you tell me that every soldier who was spit on or ignored are heroes as well.  Even Dick Cheney famously said he "had better things to do then fight in Vietnam".  Jane Fonda posed with the captors while POWs were paraded in front of her.  So, don't tell me that everyone who served in Iraq or Afghanistan is a hero, don't you freaking dare tell me this-unless and until you acknowledge all the poor kids who were drafted to die in Vietnam, or froze to death in Korea.

    "The more firearms a man owns, the smaller his member"-- Abraham Lincoln

    by truthronin on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:18:05 AM PDT

    •  Chosin Reservoir (23+ / 0-)

      Pork chop hill

      Pusan

      Inchon

      "The good Earth — we could have saved it, but we were too damn cheap and lazy." Kurt Vonnegut - "A Man Without a Country", 2005.

      by BOHICA on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:33:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Please don't perpetuate the spitting MYTH! (28+ / 0-)
      Spitting on the Troops: Old Myth, New Rumors

      By early April, stories were circulating in several US cities about uniformed military personnel being spat on or otherwise mistreated. In Asheville, North Carolina, two Marines were rumored to have been spat upon, while in Spokane, Washington, a threat to "spit on the troops when they return from Iraq" was reportedly issued. In Burlington, Vermont, a leader of the state National Guard told local television, "We've had some spitting incidents," and then claimed one of his Guardswomen had been stoned by anti-war teenagers.

      Upon further investigation, none of the stories panned out — the Spokane "threat" stemmed from the misreading of a letter in the local paper promising that opponents of the war would not spit on returning soldiers — and yet, in each case the rumors were used to stoke pro-war rallies.

      Many of the current stories are accompanied by stories of spat-upon Vietnam veterans. The recent story of spitting in Asheville, for example, was traced to a local businessman who says he is a veteran who was also spat upon and called a "baby killer" when he returned from Vietnam. An Associated Press story of April 9 reported stories of spat-upon Vietnam veterans surfacing in several cities including Spicer, Minnesota whose mayor said he was spat upon in the San Francisco airport while coming home from Vietnam in 1971.

      Similar stories became quite popular during the Gulf War of 1991 which raised my curiosity about where they came from and why they were believed. There is nothing in the historical record — news or police reports, for example — suggesting they really happened. In fact, the Veterans Administration commissioned a Harris Poll in 1971 that found 94% of Vietnam veterans reporting friendly homecomings from their age-group peers who had not served in the military. Moreover, the historical record is rich with the details of solidarity and mutuality between the anti-war movement and Vietnam veterans. The real truth, in other words, is that anti-war activists reached out to Vietnam veterans and veterans joined the movement in large numbers.

      So please omit the Right Wing Propaganda.

      "If Wall Street paid a tax on every “game” they run, we would get enough revenue to run the government on." ~ Will Rogers

      by Lefty Coaster on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:33:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  When Our Protest Was Notified of the Kent State (21+ / 0-)

        killings, we were arm in arm with Vietnam veterans.

        Never did I hear a story of a spitting before Reagan came along, and I lived among freshly returned vets all through the war and the 1975 withdrawal.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:41:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Please don't perpetuate the myth myth (0+ / 0-)

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:47:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You seem to have forgotten your link. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          poco, JVolvo, Sandy on Signal, raptavio

          Art is the handmaid of human good.

          by joe from Lowell on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:00:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Don't need a link. (0+ / 0-)

            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

            by dinotrac on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:04:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So cling to your cherished Myth (6+ / 0-)

              No proof needed.

              "If Wall Street paid a tax on every “game” they run, we would get enough revenue to run the government on." ~ Will Rogers

              by Lefty Coaster on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:08:00 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Well, you are clinging to a nasty RW spin-job: (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              joe from Lowell

              The Third Way ain't My Way!

              by JVolvo on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:38:16 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Spent the last half of the 60s with injured vets (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              worldlotus

              They were at Walter Reed getting patched up as best they could be.

              You may need links, but I don't.

              LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

              by dinotrac on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:43:49 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  and they claimed to you they were spit upon? (4+ / 0-)

                If so, of course that sucks.  And no way it happened in the numbers the RW warmongers have claimed (zero documented news accounts of this 'hippies spit on soldiers at the airport' myth; zero.  See above).

                Separate from that issue*, your service and support of those wounded soldiers deserves respect and admiration.  Thank you.

                * And that's part of why this spitting myth is so ugly - it derails from this day - honoring our fallen - and legit debate about our military involvement in another people's internal conflict.  And it plays into the RW 'we coulda won if everyone back home supported the effort' - which has a long, ugly history: see Dolchstoßlegende

                Certainly you understand the value of propaganda.  Check out the google images for it: hook-nosed Jews, Communists and Socialists betrayed the noble WWI German soldier...and helped set up WWII.

                Our Reagan cold warriors wanted to avenge the Viet Nam loss and spin public perception back towards pro-military/anti-USSR intervention.  To a large degree it worked.

                The Third Way ain't My Way!

                by JVolvo on Mon May 26, 2014 at 10:15:03 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Lots of insults and bad treatment, but let's be (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  JVolvo, 4Freedom, worldlotus

                  very clear here:

                  "lots" is relative when you talk about bad treatment.  If you've served your country and especially if you've been damaged in the process, the bad treatment will sear itself into your mind and memory.  Most people welcomed them with open arms.  It was awkward, of course, because there was no VE day or VJ day, no triumphant return.  Heck, only the beginnings of understanding for PTSD.

                  BTW, it's my mother who deserves the real thanks.  She was the volunteer at WR, but my sister and I were brought into here work, especially as she regularly brought patients home and held parties at the house.  That influenced me very heavily and was why, though the son of a fighter pilot buried at Arlington, I took part in anti-war protests in college.  Two of the first visitors we had were a couple of 19 year old boys who had lost their legs.  When we went downstairs to the rec room, they slid down the stairs on their seats. Very sobering experience for somebody just a few years younger.

                  LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                  by dinotrac on Mon May 26, 2014 at 10:29:41 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yes. My issue here is the comment re 'hippies (4+ / 0-)

                    spit on returning vets' - it's RW propaganda.  It was/is used to discredit anti-war folks and gin up anger among pro-war folks.  Again, see above, this RW propaganda strategy is very old; hell remember 'Saddam's soldiers tossing Kuwait babies onto bayonets' PR lie, that has a longer history - probably as old as bayonets.

                    PTSD is real and vets (heck, anyone suffering) deserves full support.  We have consistently failed our vets, all along, both parties.

                    Props to your Mom, your sister and you.

                    And anyone injured in our military actions.

                    The Third Way ain't My Way!

                    by JVolvo on Mon May 26, 2014 at 10:58:29 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  Heh, I chased down some quotes from Jerry (8+ / 0-)

        Lembcke, author of The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam

        One of the most resilient images of the Vietnam era is that of the anti-war protester — often a woman — spitting on the uniformed veteran just off the plane. The lingering potency of this icon was evident during the Gulf War, when war supporters invoked it to discredit their opposition.

        In this startling book, Jerry Lembcke demonstrates that not a single incident of this sort has been convincingly documented. Rather, the anti-war Left saw in veterans a natural ally, and the relationship between anti-war forces and most veterans was defined by mutual support. Indeed one soldier wrote angrily to Vice President Spiro Agnew that the only Americans who seemed concerned about the soldier's welfare were the anti-war activists.

        While the veterans were sometimes made to feel uncomfortable about their service, this sense of unease was, Lembcke argues, more often rooted in the political practices of the Right. Tracing a range of conflicts in the twentieth century, the book illustrates how regimes engaged in unpopular conflicts often vilify their domestic opponents for "stabbing the boys in the back."

        Gotta have folks revved up for the next military adventure!

        The RW myth of insulted-soldier-victim is a strange mix of spin.  No documented "DFHs spitting on vet" accounts anywhere, just 2nd-, 3rd-person assertions + Rambo, Coming Home portrayals.

        The Third Way ain't My Way!

        by JVolvo on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:32:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  NO, it was NOT a myth. (0+ / 0-)

        It actually happened. More than once, in more than one place.

        Denying the truth of firsthand experiences JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE THE TRUTH is wrong. It just is wrong.

        LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

        by BlackSheep1 on Mon May 26, 2014 at 05:42:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Got Proof? (0+ / 0-)

          "If Wall Street paid a tax on every “game” they run, we would get enough revenue to run the government on." ~ Will Rogers

          by Lefty Coaster on Mon May 26, 2014 at 07:35:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not that YOU will accept (0+ / 0-)

            because obviously anecdotes are not proof.

            These letters, I believe:
            http://www.amazon.com/...

            This was, of course, a different time. Nobody carried around a lapel cam or cell phone to video the disgusting stuff people did to each other.

            But then all those chants of "hey hey how many kids did you kill today" never happened, either, because I can't prove that to YOUR satisfaction.

            LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

            by BlackSheep1 on Mon May 26, 2014 at 11:27:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Kinda attacking the wrong day (16+ / 0-)

      Memorial day is for those who never made it home.  Save your rant for Veterans Day.

      As for naming Korean War battles, pucker up.  Besides the Inchon invasion, Pusan breakout and the Battle of Chipyong-ni, I have walked the ground of a host of lesser known battles while being stationed in Korea.  And I have been spending some of my free time studying some of those lesser known battles with a South Korean exchange officer in the course I am in.  His insights are exceptional.  

      Heros?  Depends on how you define it.  To my I am just doing what I love to do.  I choose the Profession of Arms.  My heroes are police officers and firefighters.  They have a much tougher job and far more restraints than me.  

      It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

      by ksuwildkat on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:40:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Only Elderly Wingnuts Clinging To Vietnam (6+ / 0-)

      It's been 40 years.  Christ, Nixon had Kissinger as Secretary of State (a German) hardly 20 years after WW2.  Think Obama could have North Vietnamese SoS?But now we have goobers that hate CNN because is used to be owned by Ted Turner who used to be married to Jane Fonda, and they are so full of hatred that when they die they will still probably shuffle around as zombies animated by their hatred.  

      Many of the spitting stories have been tracked back to guys that seem to be making a living as portraying themselves as human spittoons.

      Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

      by bernardpliers on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:43:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "Clinging" In Terms Of Hating Other Americans (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JVolvo, worldlotus

        Just to make that clear.

        Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

        by bernardpliers on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:44:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Ummm...there are those who fought in it (3+ / 0-)

        They are kind of stuck clinging to it, especially if they lost buddies, arms, legs, etc.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:48:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And Are They Hating Other Americans? nt (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JVolvo

          Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

          by bernardpliers on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:00:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  A few are, I'm sure. A lot more are bitter, which (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            swampyankee, bernardpliers

            is not the same thing.

            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

            by dinotrac on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:05:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Vietnam As A 40 Year Old Political Wedge Issue (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JVolvo, worldlotus

              For WW2 vets there wasn't a whole organized subculture of anger and resentment trying to suck in vets, even though many vets were treated rather shabby after WW2 as in "The Best Years Of Our Lives."

              In the 1980s there was no Bundy Ranch trying to draw WW2 vets into a fantasy of a meaningful heroic death.  The WW2 vets weren't running around with their Garands.  They weren't being told they had a "Constitutional" duty to shoot people who didn't agree with them politically, which is what they'd be told today.  Which seems like a pretty bad idea for people that might have PTSD.

              And there wasn't a whole conspiracy subculture aimed at the WW2 vets, at least in the 80's.  There certainly were the Birchers back in the 50's who appealed to vets, but not so much in the 80's.  Now the conspiracy subculture has come roaring back.

              Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

              by bernardpliers on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:17:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  WWII vets were treated much better than (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JVolvo, bernardpliers, justrock

                VietNam vets, but I would bet that the largest part of the difference is a belief in the justness of the cause.  Those who went through WWII at least had the realization that they were fighting against deep and genuine evil, not merely some geo-political chess match.

                LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                by dinotrac on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:46:21 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The Freepers And RedStaters Make It Personal (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  JVolvo, Lefty Coaster

                  For them it is the American version of the German Dolchstoßlegende, which blames everything on the Dirty Fucking Hippies.

                  The stab-in-the-back myth (About this sound Dolchstoßlegende (help·info))[1] is the notion, widely believed in right-wing circles in Germany after 1918, that the German Army did not lose World War I but was instead betrayed by the civilians on the home front, especially the republicans who overthrew the monarchy. Advocates denounced the German government leaders who signed the Armistice on November 11, 1918, as the "November Criminals" (German: Novemberverbrecher).

                  Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

                  by bernardpliers on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:56:26 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I think you are brilliant! :o) (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    bernardpliers, Lefty Coaster

                    The Third Way ain't My Way!

                    by JVolvo on Mon May 26, 2014 at 10:20:17 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  The "dirty fucking hippies" covered a broad swathe (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Lefty Coaster

                    of people who kinda looked alike and kinda acted alike.  Some of my Socialist Worker Party friends, etc  were a tad more, umm, expressive than most "dirty fucking hippies".

                    The vast majority of young people that I knew not only had friends, neighbors, and family who had served, but were grateful for having avoided it themselves.  We could all get really worked up in some contexts -- a street demonstration, for example, facing riot-geared cops weilding those sweetly-named "riot batons" (cop-ese for big fucking sticks), but that was a special adrenalined-up case that coincided with feelings and beliefs more than representing them.

                    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                    by dinotrac on Mon May 26, 2014 at 10:36:10 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Some Concern My Older Brother Would Be Drafted (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      dinotrac

                      But his group drew a low number in the draft lottery (imagine explaining that to some kid today) and the war ended a year or so later.

                      In the area where I grew up there were a lot of factory workers and such, so it was never an area where the recruiters made a big effort.  First, most people had good jobs and weren't escaping rural life.  Second, the military needed tool and die makers and steamfitters working on contracts, not joining the infantry. Now I live in the Bible belt near some big bases and people casually (and sometimes aggressively) ask about family history in terms of military service, which is a whole different culture.

                      My grandfather was in stationed in Guantanamo Bay.  He always claimed he'd gone AWOL, hit an officer, and been shot in the ass running from the enemy, but his service record was actually clean.

                      Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

                      by bernardpliers on Mon May 26, 2014 at 11:13:04 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  There were no Dirty Filthy hippies (0+ / 0-)

                      Just some kids more informed and trying to stop an unjust war.   Most veterans get that now..at least those on the peace side.  There are always one or two but broadstroking is not the answer.

                      There is a difference in dissent and those like Bush who was a chickenhawk and war monger.   Hippies?  I love hippies as does my husband who served in battle ravaged Vietnam.

                      Just how much Koch do Right Wingers want in their life? . United Veterans of America

                      by Vetwife on Mon May 26, 2014 at 02:46:09 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

    •  HR'd (3+ / 0-)

      DBAD.

      Miss Aji? She blogs here now.
      I’m a feminist because the message is still "don’t get raped" not "don’t rape."

      by Avilyn on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:47:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Tipped for unjust HR (0+ / 0-)

        Not liking what someone says is not a reason to HR them.

        It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

        by ksuwildkat on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:39:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Do you support the RW myth of VN vets being (2+ / 0-)

          spit upon by DFHs and, even worse, women?

          RW spin - asserted as fact, as our newcomer did above - will often get HRd.

          I wrote a comment about the spit myth so I didn't HR.

          The Third Way ain't My Way!

          by JVolvo on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:42:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No I dont (0+ / 0-)

            But being wrong about something lots of people think is not a reason to HR someone.  Respond with facts and truth - just like you did.  This myth should be countered but it has gotten to the point of the "Malaise Speech" or "Let them Eat Cake" - reasonable people believe it not out of malice but ignorance.  Don't punish a man for being ignorant, teach him.

            It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

            by ksuwildkat on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:57:09 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I did attempt to teach and I didn't HR. How (0+ / 0-)

              does your uprate assist him/her in the learning?

              The Third Way ain't My Way!

              by JVolvo on Mon May 26, 2014 at 10:21:40 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I agree, you did (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JVolvo

                and you didnt HR.  I am 100% on board with what you did.

                It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

                by ksuwildkat on Mon May 26, 2014 at 11:46:11 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Thanks, yet you uprated it. How does that help (0+ / 0-)

                  'teach' poster about not spreading the RW myth?  Doesn't it give him/her the idea that it's supported?  

                  The Third Way ain't My Way!

                  by JVolvo on Mon May 26, 2014 at 11:55:12 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Simple math (0+ / 0-)

                    I don't think the poster should get one of those nasty little notes that says they have violated community standards.  With his/her mojo level they would probably be put in time out too.  You and others have done an excellent job of pointing out the error of the myth and if he/she is paying attention will know that I uprated all of those.  

                    I don't think believing something that is not true based on ignorance is something we want to punish.  Unlike others, the OP in this case has not defended the myth.  I hope that means education has set in.  

                    It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

                    by ksuwildkat on Mon May 26, 2014 at 12:18:36 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  spreading right wing talking points (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JVolvo, grover, BigDuck, ksuwildkat

              is more pernicious than just "being wrong about something lots of people think"

              RW talking points always deserve an HR

              Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
              DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
              Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

              by TrueBlueMajority on Mon May 26, 2014 at 11:09:55 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I would almost agree (0+ / 0-)

                If we were talking about "true" RW TPs like "Hillary is too old" or "Reducing taxes increases revenues" or "Vince Foster was murdered" I would be on board (most of the time).  But as I said, this has been accurately described as a myth - like Yeti (which has a brand new Discovery Channel "documentary") or that gum takes 7 years to digest.  I would not HR my mom for still to this day believing that swimming within 45 minutes of eating leads to sure death.  She is wrong but its not HR wrong.

                Look at the original response I made.  It was to an HR that said "DBAD" from a poster who has said nothing else, added nothing else, on this subject.  Really?  Is that helpful?  Is that countering anything?  Is that pointing the poster in the direction of truth?  Is that letting them know they have been fooled?  Or is it it just being what you HRed for.

                Im generally opposed to HRs for anything other than "fighting words."  Maybe it was too much Constitutional Law with Prof. Lindford but I take an expansive view of speech.  If fighting words is good enough for the Nine, its good enough for me.  

                It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

                by ksuwildkat on Mon May 26, 2014 at 12:04:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Sadly (0+ / 0-)

                At the very end of an otherwise excellent documentary about a unit of the 9th Infantry in Vietnam they did about 30 seconds of stores of being spit on.  4 different guys all telling the same story.  I don't think National Geographic is trying to spread RWTP and I don't think the guys being interviewed were either.  At this point they probably believe it happened like some people believe they see UFOs.  

                Its a myth and it needs to be confronted.  But it needs to be confronted differently than true RWTP.

                It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. Robert E. Lee

                by ksuwildkat on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:12:41 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  repeating RW talking points is a reason to HR (0+ / 0-)

              Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
              Talk about grief and grieving in The Grieving Room on Monday nights

              by TrueBlueMajority on Mon May 25, 2015 at 10:47:25 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  "Don't punish a man for being ignorant, teach him. (0+ / 0-)

              OK, a teachable moment, I'm into that.

              First, a bone to pick with you.  I detest the Rbt. E. Lee quote.  My relatives from NC, living in KY and TN during the war for equal rights and justice, fought under the Union Flag, Old Glory, for Gen. US Grant and President Lincoln.  

              I'm from a military family.  It is not ignorance but experience that guides our family actions and opinions.  Tell me about your military service, or that of your family.  

    •  Returning Vietnam Vets (15+ / 0-)

      I was never spit on when I returned from Vietnam 67-68, but when I tried to join the VFW, they wanted nothing to do with "Vietnam losers".
      When we finally had a welcome home parade in Chicago in 1986, organized by Vietnam vets, two groups protested the parade at the assembly point at Navy Pier. One was the American Legion and the other was the VFW.  Many of their signs read " no parade for losers".
      The VFW I now belong to in Wisconsin is almost all Vietnam vets. We go out of our way to welcome new returning vets, but they are few.

      Never trust an atom. They make up everything

      by taperwing on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:00:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The spitting thing is a RW myth; our Hawk's (6+ / 0-)

      version of post-WWI Germany's "stabbed in the back" spun when they want to avert attention from the military failure to achieve political goals into 'who supports the troops more?!.'  They blamed the Socialists and the Jews.  Our Reagan-era warmongers (yes, the myth revved up in the 80s; Rambo said it) blamed the DFHs.

      meh

      Jack Shafer, Slate 1/30/2007:

      The myth of the spat-upon Vietnam veteran refuses to die. Despite Jerry Lembcke's debunking book from 1998, Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam, and my best efforts  to publicize his work, the press continues to repeat the fables as fact.

      Earlier this month, Newsweek resuscitated the vet-spit myth in a dual profile of John McCain and Chuck Hagel. Newsweek reports: "Returning GIs were sometimes jeered and even spat upon in airports; they learned to change quickly into civilian clothes."

      Nexis teems with such allegations of spat-upon vets and even includes testimonials by those who claim to have been gobbed upon. But Lembcke—a Vietnam vet himself—cites his own research and that of other academics to assert that he has never uncovered a single news story documenting such an incident.

      Lembcke writes:

         

      If spitting on veterans had occurred all that frequently, surely some veteran or soldier would have called it to the attention of the press at the time. … Indeed, we would imagine that news reporters would have been camping in the lobby of the San Francisco airport, cameras in hand, just waiting for a chance to record the real thing—if, that is, they had any reason to believe that such incidents might occur.
      Lembcke op-ed 4/30/2005:
      STORIES ABOUT spat-upon Vietnam veterans are like mercury: Smash one and six more appear. It's hard to say where they come from. For a book I wrote in 1998 I looked back to the time when the spit was supposedly flying, the late 1960s and early 1970s. I found nothing. No news reports or even claims that someone was being spat on.

      What I did find is that around 1980, scores of Vietnam-generation men were saying they were greeted by spitters when they came home from Vietnam. There is an element of urban legend in the stories in that their point of origin in time and place is obscure, and, yet, they have very similar details. The story told by the man who spat on Jane Fonda at a book signing in Kansas City recently is typical. Michael Smith said he came back through Los Angeles airport where ''people were lined up to spit on us."

      The myth persists, it's not just for VN anymore.

      I won't HR due to engaging with you, but RW spin will often get HRs.

      Your comment is a strange mixture of stuff, Bin Laden, "the Towers" and Cheney's "meh" plus the obligatory Jane Fonda thing in there.  Wait, didn't Jane hand over the paper slip to the evil POW camp commander!?!!1@

      Hmm...

      The Third Way ain't My Way!

      by JVolvo on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:25:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Nope & maybe. (4+ / 0-)
      However, in general, most of the Vietnam vets (who were really spit on when they returned from Vietnam-those stories are true) and the Korean vets (let's face it, name one US battle in Korea and I will kiss your butt) are ignored completely.

      As I look upon the honor flags of both my father & my only sibling, I can still feel the reverberations of the 21 gun salute on the separate occasions when these memorial flags were presented.

      No cohort of mine-beit civvie or vet- ever shared spitting stories. On the contrary, it was peace, compassion and love bestowed or offered.  And trust me, I was intimately surrounded by Vietnam well into adulthood.

      Growing up in & later marrying into the military environment, Korea was not discussed like WWI, WWII or 'Nam.  At times I have wondered why; especially so since my father & his cohorts served in WWII and Korea.

      And there have been times-long after my father's death-that I have wondered whether Korea was his generation's Vietnam.  Would maybe account for the leeway he gave me as one of those anti war non spittin' protestors....

      Everyone has their own reasons for honoring or not honoring this day.  For me and mine, we honor ALL put into harms way, for the untold sacrifice and as odd as it sounds-for generational life.

      My children and grandchildren (and in all probability myself) as well as an untold number of strangers would not exist if it were not for the war time rescue operations of those vets like my father.  

      For me and mine, this is especially mind provoking.

      Before the Korean conflict, where my father was strictly rescue ops, he happened to spend one of his birthdays during WWII bombing the hell out of where I was born.

      And later went back to this bombed to hell place and adopted the orphaned infant me......think about that for a second.

       I do, every time I look upon self, upon my children and grandchildren.  I was one of the lucky ones in the game of war.

    •  WWII was The "Just" war... (0+ / 0-)

      ...although even after Pearl Harbor a significant number of Americans still were against war with Germany. After WWII, America was exhausted, mentally, physically, economically and morally with war. How the Korean War happened is probably a mystery.  To most Americans it was part of WWII and an over confident attitude that it'll be over in couple of months...if that. As for Vietnam...it was more about "the military industrial complex" that Eisenhower famously commented about...all the rest including Irag and Afghanistan..although the later SNAF'd up by Bushthelesser and 5xDefemeCheney. just saying.  

      Our nations quality of life is based on the rightousness of its people.

      by kalihikane on Mon May 26, 2014 at 10:46:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  has there ever been any proof (0+ / 0-)

      of the "Vietnam Vets were spit on" story?

      Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
      Talk about grief and grieving in The Grieving Room on Monday nights

      by TrueBlueMajority on Mon May 25, 2015 at 10:43:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I pray to the god of peace (13+ / 0-)

    that we can honor all those who gave their lives in service by renewing a commitment to stop sending future soldiers into unjust wars and by healing our violent nation.

    I'm not liberal. I'm actually just anti-evil, OK? - Elon James White

    by Satya1 on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:26:14 AM PDT

    •  I wish (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Satya1

      this would be true and I wish I could recommend this comment more than once.  

      Peace through out the entire world.

      "I don't want to run the empire, I want to bring it down!" ~ Dr. Cornel West "It was a really naked declaration of imperialism." ~ Jeremy Scahill on Obama's speech to the UN

      by gulfgal98 on Mon May 26, 2014 at 12:25:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Going to my small town's parade this afternoon (9+ / 0-)

    "If Wall Street paid a tax on every “game” they run, we would get enough revenue to run the government on." ~ Will Rogers

    by Lefty Coaster on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:36:03 AM PDT

  •  Remember Morning is for Mourning (11+ / 0-)

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:39:54 AM PDT

  •  Remember how the Cons didn't like the VVM? (16+ / 0-)

    They wanted to see something traditionally stodgy and gaudy, like the WWII memorial that was seen pretty much as a rebuke to the Vietnam Veterans Memorial.

    Yet you don't see people bawling their eyes out at the WWII memorial.

    You don't see people dropping off mementos -- flowers, toys, sharpshooter badges, and the like -- in memory of loved ones and comrades who died too soon.

    Maya Lin's design was groundbreaking and it's since been copied by the makers of many local and municipal memorials.  

    Visit http://theuptake.org/ for Minnesota news as it happens.

    by Phoenix Woman on Mon May 26, 2014 at 08:43:45 AM PDT

  •  with much love to the men, women and families (9+ / 0-)

    of our fallen patriots.

    "Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress Chris Christie. But I repeat myself." ~ Mark Twain, (with a twist) ;o)

    by Terre on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:28:26 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for these moving photos. (12+ / 0-)

    I've been nudging (ok... nagging) people on Facebook not to blur the distinctions between Memorial Day, Veterans Day, Armed Forces Day.

    A some folks use this occasion to recall the father who served, retired and then lived a long, full civilian life before passing on.

    Others like to express their pride in the nephew who is currently serving in uniform.

    Every year, my minister asked everyone in the congregation who has served to stand up and be recognized.

    We should honor them all, but that's not what Memorial day is about.

    Some may be following an urge to "demilitarize" the holiday. But I suspect that Americans tend to dilute this holiday in this way because we are just not comfortable with the subject of death and loss.

    We have other holidays for the soldier and the veteran. On Memorial Day, let us remember those who "gave the last full measure of their devotion".

    “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing
    he was never reasoned into” - Jonathan Swift

    by jjohnjj on Mon May 26, 2014 at 09:32:18 AM PDT

  •  That Afghan war memorial is sickening. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TrueBlueMajority

    I opted out of the two-party system in large part because I could no longer stand to be complicit in the pointless sacrifice of American soldiers by sociopathic politicians trying to look tough on national security.   In 2012 I honored our soldiers in Afghanistan by NOT voting for the fucking asshole who escalated that stupid war.

  •  Where have all the flower gone? Sing along if you (8+ / 0-)

    don't mind crying a little.

    Just doing my part to piss off right wing nuts, one smart ass comment at a time.

    by tekno2600 on Mon May 26, 2014 at 10:21:05 AM PDT

  •  I grew up arounf National Cemetery in New Albany (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lefty Coaster, kfunk937

    Indiana. My High School was on the opposite side of the cemetery so it was quicker to walk between the orderly rows of stones than to walk three additional blocks around, so I often took the short cut through the cemetery. I began playing the clarinet in the school band in the 4th grade summer school program and played through Hight School Every year on, the Summer Band played for every Memorial Day, Flag Day and 4th of July ceremony in the National Cemetery.

    This cemetery looked much like Arlington, but on a much smaller scale.  It is much different than where my brother is buried in the National Cemetery in Phoenix.  The Phoenix sight was originally the National Guard Cemetery but has grown to include all branches of the Military.  The desert setting with cactus. stones and sand is beautiful, but not the image usually seen in Military graveyards.

  •  Lantern Floating Ceremony in Ala Moana Beach, HI (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kfunk937, chimene

    Re: The second photo

    :A group of high school students prepare to float lanterns during a ceremony marking remembrance and reflection, held by the Shinnyo-en Buddhist organization, honoring victims of war, famine, and natural disasters on Memorial Day at Ala Moana Beach Park in Honolulu, Hawaii.
    Many videos on YouTube



    http://www.youtube.com/...


    http://www.youtube.com/...


    KGMB TV in Honolulu will have live broardcast starting a 6:00pm HST, 9:00pm PST or 12:00am EST.

  •  Thank you Kos (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kfunk937, chimene

    a very hard day for so many veterans....Very hard.

    Just how much Koch do Right Wingers want in their life? . United Veterans of America

    by Vetwife on Mon May 26, 2014 at 02:39:16 PM PDT

  •  Some lessons I have learned in my life (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Chi, ratcityreprobate, tb92

    (in memory:)

    Don't start a war.

    Don't put the power to engage in war in the hands of people you know are bad.

    Is revolution enhanced politics?

    by Publius2008 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 09:03:32 AM PDT

  •  "It is foolish and wrong to mourn men who have ... (0+ / 0-)

    "It is foolish and wrong to mourn men who have died. Rather we should thank God such men lived." - George S Patton

    I have always been of two hearts about this day. General Patton is correct... it is not right to mourn these fine men and women. They lived brave lives, and honourably gave every penny of the dearest currency they owned. It is only right to celebrate such courage and dedication with joy - to love them and the lives, however brief, that they lived. To take comfort that they lived and loved, did right and wrong like all men and women. They brought their parents and friends joy and embarrassment in some measure, they were smart and ignorant, they were wonderful humans and glorious bastards in turn. They bore children or did not, as was their wont... they loved men and women who loved them in return. They were human. They lived a turn upon this Earth, and in the fullness of time, left it in glory.

    I mourn instead for the lives they could have led. Things which could have been... joy and sorrow they could have sewn. Children and loves they never met. I mourn for a world so capricious it sees fit to rob us of such fierce flames.

    And you will forgive me, I hope, if I - some would say foolishly - look forward to a day when such sacrifices are no longer necessary. Having visited Arlington, and Gettysburg, and countless cemeteries where the warm ground cradles our cherished dead, I have witnessed the neat little rows of crosses. I am convicted that the only true response to seeing such loss is to long for there to never need to be another row. Rest well. We who remain remember.

  •  Happy Memorial Day (0+ / 0-)

    Remember those who served in honor for this country, and don't allow some to use the "patriotic card".

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