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This diary is in response to comments in a Front Page diary from earlier today.  The diary pointed out the republican response to the hobby lobby decision, which of course contained the predictable amount of slut shaming.

Unfortunately, it seems many people here took this as a perfect opportunity to bash other people for their sex lives.

One poster posted that the following should be the GOP hastags on twitter:

#GOPvirginsSpeakOut
#SexIsScary
#WomenDontLikeMe
#40YearOldVirgin
#IcantFindHerCl**
#WhyIamStillSingle
Being offended, I responded by saying:
Not at all funny. Just mean. Yes, most republican men have sex. And pretty much all the pundits cited above. If it isn't ok to shame sex, why is it ok to shame a lack of it?
This set off a storm of replies, that, given the amount of virgin shaming that goes on around here, and in society in general, I thought deserved a diary of its own.

As an initial matter, one replier stated:

"I'm so sick of people on dKos scolding other about (18+ / 0-)

being mean. Get a life and a sense of humor."  

This comment sadly has 18 upvotes.

Can someone explain to me how this is any different from what you would hear from Fox News or Free Republic whenever they say something bigoted or offensive?  Blaming the person offended and telling them to get a sense of humor, rather than actually examining whether something might be offensive?  How is this response any different to the typical right-wing response when someone calls them out on their offensiveness?  

Getting to the more substantive responses to my post, these seemed to fall under 3 main arguments:

1.  Why was I defending Repulicans?

I wasn't defending Republicans.  I was defending virgins.  The original comment, while maybe intended as an insult against slut-shaming republicans, was just as much of an insult against virgins.

Its not much different from using a hashtag like #republicans_are_girls or #republicans_are_gay or #republicans_are_fat or any other number of obnoxious hashtags.  It may be a little offensive to republicans, but its really an attack on the group the Republicans are being compared to, by implying their is something wrong with those groups.

If someone used these hashtags,  would people  more readily recognize why such things might be offensive to more than just republicans?

2. The purpose of the original comment wasn't to insult virgins, it was to point out GOP hypocrisy

There certainly is a double standard when it comes to the different responses to men and women having sex - but that is a difference in the slut-shaming response to men having sex versus women having sex.  Virgins don't enter into the equation.  Except if people want to use that as an insult.

A proper response to this hypocrisy would be to point out how men who have lots of sex aren't shamed to nearly the same extent as women, and how some men want to have sex with as many women as possible, while calling those same women sluts.  Those are examples of the hypocrisy at issue.  

Again, virgins don't enter into the equation.  Except if people want to use it as some juvenile insult.


3.  The GOP launched a war on women's freedom, and thus any means necessary should be utilized in response.

Do people really think that calling republican men virgins - a group that Republican men almost certainly share a similar scorn for - is going to do anything to help women's rights?  Will it convince a single person, let alone a single politician or a single judge, to change their views?  Or is it just an excuse, like fat-shaming someone on the pretext of caring about their health, to feel superior to other people?

Shouldn't we be trying to reach a point where no one is shamed for their sex lives?  

How does shaming virgins further that cause?

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Comment Preferences

  •  You can't be serious? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ExpatGirl, lordcopper

    I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

    by jbou on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 04:44:59 PM PDT

  •  The comment "get a life and a sense of humor" is (22+ / 0-)

    one I've heard right after racist and sexist jokes.  

    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubt." Bertrand Russell I'm very certain that is true. 10−122

    by thestructureguy on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 04:48:56 PM PDT

  •  Because self-deprecation is OK (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    duhban, blueoasis

    and obviously all those who diss virgins are themselves virgins.

    warning: snark probably above

    by NE2 on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 04:55:14 PM PDT

  •  There were at least a half-dozen front page (4+ / 0-)

    articles on Hobby Lobby today. Which one are you referring to?

      •  Thanks for the link. I read the diary and the (12+ / 0-)

        comment thread that contained the hashtags that you found offensive. Like ExpatGirl, I read them as poking fun at GOP hypocrisy at men who use tags like #CloseYourLegs, and then go out to get drunk and get laid.

        Joan said, in her diary discussing the Republican reaction to the backlash to the HL decision that the GOP appears to think:

        only sluts and whores use birth control. The obvious conclusion is that these guys aren't getting much in the way of action if they don't think women should get to have sex for fun. Or they're only getting it when they pay for it.
        In that context, I don't see the hashtags as shaming virgins, but on calling out the GOP for shaming normal healthy women who enjoy sex for reasons other than reproduction. As a matter of fact, I would go a step further and suggest that not the original diary nor any of the comments are about virgins. It is about the Republican theocracy restricting women to second class citizens. Try reading the article that Joan Mc Carter linked to.
        •  I think the obvious reaction is that the GOP (3+ / 0-)

          has a double standard when it comes to sex.  I don't think its obvious that they aren't getting much in the way of action, and certainly not that they are virgins.  

          How do you think those hashtags call out the GOP, unless you assume there is something wrong with male virgins?  Otherwise, where is the call out?

          •  the reference to "virgin" is an absurdism, it's (3+ / 0-)

            being used as a metaphor for the GOP shitheads' faux virtuosity.   You would have to work very, very hard to prove that anyone around here would comment to a virgin, or about an actual virgin as if there is shame or failure in virginity.

            it's not really a very complicated trope: as the GOP is all about men doing manly things in manly ways while being men about it, they would, in fact, be quite ashamed of being seen as virgins -- that is, "not yet a MAN".  You can have a problem with that all you like, but it's not a problem, I think, that we around here are generally susceptible to nor adherents of -- we just poke them in that weak(minded) spot when they are extra busy being hypocritical shitheads regarding sex as it applies to everybody else.

            Righteousness is a wide path. Self-righteousness is a bullhorn and a blindfold.

            by Murphoney on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 06:45:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  there's no shame? (0+ / 0-)

              or failure, except it's a metaphor for being a shithead.

            •  You needn't look further than this thread. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              churchylafemme

              To see someone imply that there is shame and failure in being a virgin.

              •  you will need to explain that for me, please. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Lost and Found

                Righteousness is a wide path. Self-righteousness is a bullhorn and a blindfold.

                by Murphoney on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 06:52:05 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  One poster said: (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  churchylafemme, Wee Mama

                  "I am sorry if you went through or are still going through a time in your life that you weren't/aren't able to form meaningful relationships that lead to sex. But if this diary and your temper tantrum in the one that inspired it is anything to go by, I'm not surprised."

                  That sure implies to me that there is something shameful about being a virgin.

                  •  first, I don't like that comment. still, it's not (0+ / 0-)

                    the only way to read it.

                    sex is fulfilling and pleasurable -- fulfillment and pleasure are desirable (I don't think these are controversial statements).

                    the comment you quote ham-handedly (and perhaps insincerely) regrets that, by his/her overly-broad assumption, you might not have enjoyed that fulfillment and pleasure.  the rest of it is a straight slam, an insult, not to be reinterpreted or condoned.

                    but still, I don't see shame or failure applied to "virginity-by-choice," as opposed to virgin-by-virtue-of-the-lack-of-a-willing-partner.

                    these jokes aren't always kind and they're not always easy to deal with -- especially for individuals who have suffered some sort of abuse, or are less confident than they would like to be, in general.  Even so -- honestly, jokes about "coming of age" and sex and gender-specifics -- this particular, juvenile game is as old as Ur, and beyond -- it's as old as the birds and bees themselves.

                    that's not an excuse nor a defense of anyone who would attack a person who chooses not to "have sex".  I guess it's an acknowledgement that a vast plurality, if not a huge majority, of the human race tries to have sex, and not all of them succeed.

                    Righteousness is a wide path. Self-righteousness is a bullhorn and a blindfold.

                    by Murphoney on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 07:27:25 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

  •  Shaming virgins? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lost and Found, leevank, allergywoman

    How exactly do those hashtags shame you?

    If trees gave off WIFi signals, we would probably plant so many trees, we would save the planet. Too bad they only produce the oxygen we breathe.

    by skohayes on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 04:58:23 PM PDT

  •  Celibacy is a viable choice. (11+ / 0-)

    If anyone ridicules it, they're being juvenile.

    "It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us in trouble. It's the things we know that ain't so." (Artemus Ward)

    by Silencio on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 05:12:43 PM PDT

  •  Nice job (8+ / 0-)

    of pointing out the double standards that exist  generally and specifically here and everywhere.

  •  Depends (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    NancyWH

    Are they virgins by choice.

    Or virgins because they have been socialized to be chattel?

  •  I'm sorry to disagree, you seem to (6+ / 0-)

    have fixated on a non-issue.  The point is the sheer, unbridled 24/7 hypocrisy of Republicans.  It would be different if they were morally superior to everyone else.  They appear to be morally inferior, sexually repressed to a frightening degree, and horrifically misogynistic.  Slapping back at them with humor is hardly surprising.

    I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

    by I love OCD on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 05:54:16 PM PDT

    •  There's a legitimate claim (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      I love OCD, serendipityisabitch

      That hypocrisy is being employed to criticize hypocrisy.

      Of course, I don't think hypocrisy is a particularly damning sin when it comes to politics, so I don't see what the big deal is.

      •  I guess I get a bit cranky with (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        duhban

        5 old guys up in my privates.  I'm pretty much okay with anything nasty said about any Conservative, in any tone of voice.  This may pass.  Or not.

        I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

        by I love OCD on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 06:34:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I sincerely doubt that you are ok... (4+ / 0-)

          with anything nasty said about them.

          Would you be ok with insulting them for being Jewish, gay, disabled, Muslim, and so on?

          Why can't people just attack them for their damn viewpoints?

          •  Because that's not as fun n/t (0+ / 0-)
          •  They don't have viewpoints. They operate (0+ / 0-)

            out of their lizard brains, fight or flight mode a constant distraction.  It has nothing to do with being Jewish, disabled, Muslim, Christian.  It has everything to do with the terror of being forced to compete on a level playing field with people they've judged inferior and are now losing to.  They lash out, punish, create havoc so no one notices they are not superior by virtue of race or gender.  Losers, bullies, lazy-ass moochers.  

            I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

            by I love OCD on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 07:58:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  When applied sardonically, sort of like (0+ / 0-)

        clown shoes full of superglue while the guy you despise isn't paying attention, hypocrisy can be correctly identified as sarcasm and/or parody.

        If hypocrisy were exactly like clown shoes full of superglue applied while the guy you despise isn't paying attention, hypocrisy would probably be generally known as 'hilarious'

        Righteousness is a wide path. Self-righteousness is a bullhorn and a blindfold.

        by Murphoney on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 09:53:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  what you still refuse to understand (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    leevank

    is that nothing in that thread had anything to do with shaming virgins.

    You want to be offended? Eh okay that's your choice but I find it generally to be a worked up sort of outrage that only really makes sense outside of the context of the comments invovled.

    Der Weg ist das Ziel

    by duhban on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 05:55:40 PM PDT

  •  Will shaming virgins (1+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    serendipityisabitch
    Hidden by:
    ExpatGirl

    Lead to more people like Elliot Rodgers?

    •  I find this comment completley disgusting. (0+ / 0-)

      Are you implying that anyone other than Red Pill/MRA loving Rodgers was responsible for his killing spree?

      Fuck. Off.

      In our criminal justice system, a Republican is presumed innocent until the 2nd Coming. - Gooserock

      by ExpatGirl on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 09:38:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Damn. It sucks when there is a typo (0+ / 0-)

        in an explanation of an HR. At least the word 'disgusting' was spelled right.

        In our criminal justice system, a Republican is presumed innocent until the 2nd Coming. - Gooserock

        by ExpatGirl on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 09:43:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry, I can't agree with the HR, even though (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        churchylafemme, happymisanthropy

        I see where you're coming from. The socialization that males tend to have to go through in order to be part of many male groups can indeed lead to extreme discomfort in this area, though not generally to the extent of developing that much hatred for women.

        I don't know what the causes for Rodger's spree were, but this is potentially a part of the problem, even though I think the commenter was being crass.

        mouseover the bar (I'm practicing for DK5)

        by serendipityisabitch on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 10:07:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't believe women have anything (3+ / 0-)

          to do with that world. It seems to happen totally separate to us but we are blamed for the 'condition'.

          In our criminal justice system, a Republican is presumed innocent until the 2nd Coming. - Gooserock

          by ExpatGirl on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 10:11:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I love you to bits but am leaving this thread (3+ / 0-)

          I have already given it too much time and consequence. Am avoiding some things I need to do before getting on the plane to go home next week.

          I am horrified by the comment I hr'ed. Truly horrified. Rodgers blamed women for his spree because we didn't f*ck him and pay him his due and needed to be murdered for that. Apparently we 'made' him do it because how dare he be a virgin. I might be interpreting it incorrectly and actually hope I am.

          It isn't in the hiddens and I would think twice about uprating it.

          In our criminal justice system, a Republican is presumed innocent until the 2nd Coming. - Gooserock

          by ExpatGirl on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 10:20:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  This diary is just the latest example of attempts (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis, leevank

    to stifle independent thought on this site.  If you don't agree with a pov, then make a cogent argument against it.  Or maybe just ignore the diary.  Everyone doesn't feel the same about every issue.

    "Because I am a river to my people."

    by lordcopper on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 06:03:49 PM PDT

    •  How does this diary stifle dissent? (7+ / 0-)

      What valid viewpoint is this diary stifling?

      The only viewpoint this diary is stifling is that virgins are somehow losers who it is ok to shame.  

      If you think that is a valid viewpoint, then you have pretty much justified my posting this diary.

      •  The jokes about about virginity obviously hit a (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        duhban

        sore spot, which is fine.  But to feel the need to scold others about something so trivial (and probably not the case anyway) seems senseless.   I saw the diary referenced and simply ignored it because I didn't see it as a serious subject.  Maybe that's an approach that will work for you.  You wrote:

        The only viewpoint this diary is stifling is that virgins are somehow losers who it is ok to shame.  

        If you think that is a valid viewpoint, then you have pretty much justified my posting this diary.

        How do my views (if you are correct) contribute to your posting this diary?  Do you really think this diary would change my mind?  Who are you to tell others what to think?  The best you can do is make a cogent argument,  and this missed the mark.

        As I said, too many here attempt to scold and insult others into adopting their points of view.  I rarely see an attempt to understand why others have come to a certain point of view.  Too bad, because respectful discourse usually prompts a similar response.  And that's how real understanding and agreement is reached.

        "Because I am a river to my people."

        by lordcopper on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 06:52:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The irony (0+ / 0-)

        above this comment is stunning:

        As I said, too many here attempt to scold and insult others into adopting their points of view.
        Most wingnuts have no idea what hypocrisy is, have you ever noticed that?

        Good diary...

        "Inevitability" diminishes free will and replaces it with self-fulfilling prophecies."--Geenius At Wrok

        by lunachickie on Fri Jul 04, 2014 at 08:12:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Sometimes it’s hard, (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    btfsilence, blueoasis, myboo, Wee Mama

    but try to ignore the creeps.  A lot of “humor” seems to be based on putting somebody down.  I personally am single, white, male, 63 years old and was raised on a small farm in central Washington State, a very rural, very conservative area, where I still live.  I can find one or, more often, several comments insulting one or more of the groups to which I belong in any almost any thread where humor is attempted.  But, I’m not here for the “humor” and individual comments from people I will never know aren’t particularly important to me.  Should we try to be more considerate of each other?  Yes.  Will we all?  After 45 years as an adult, I’m telling you that’s a definite “No!” even among liberals.

  •  OMG. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    duhban, leevank, myboo, theRoaringGirl

    You didn't get enough response from me in the diary in question that you called out something I said to you in this one?

    Your sense of perspective is need of help. Professional help.

    You know what? I was a happy and proud virgin until one week shy of my 21st birthday when my boyfriend of more than a year decided he had had enough of being patient with that and decided to rape me. From that point forward, according to Republicans, I became a whore.

    I am sorry if you went through or are still going through a time in your life that you weren't/aren't able to form meaningful relationships that lead to sex. But if this diary and your temper tantrum in the one that inspired it is anything to go by, I'm not surprised.

    In a diary that included some of the most execrable views of women possible, all you saw was yourself. That is more than sad.

    In our criminal justice system, a Republican is presumed innocent until the 2nd Coming. - Gooserock

    by ExpatGirl on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 06:22:44 PM PDT

    •  Well I am sorry you got raped. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kane in CA

      But I don't think its throwing a temper tantrum to point out widespread and offensive comments.  And implying that someone taking offense to such comments is throwing a temper-tantrum is pretty much what conservatives have said about Feminism for the past 50 years.

      Do you think that, because the diary included execrable views of women, that would justify insulting Jewish or gay people?  Or fat people? Or the disabled?

      Why do you think it gives someone the right to insult someone who had nothing to do with the execrable views of women?  

      No one in that thread was justifying the execrable views of women.  Plenty of people were justifying the execrable views of virgins.

      •  there was nothing 'widespread' about ExpatGirl's (0+ / 0-)

        comment. This is a straw man you have invented and refuse to let go of like it's your favorite bone or something. I won't speak to offense as  only you can answer that.

        Der Weg ist das Ziel

        by duhban on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 06:46:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It is widespread. In that thread... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Kane in CA

          but, more generally, in society at large.  Its part of the same viewpoint that insults women for being sluts.

           

          •  well that is your opinion not mine (0+ / 0-)

            Der Weg ist das Ziel

            by duhban on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 07:02:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Not just hers (4+ / 0-)

              I'm a virgin... well past my prime, and by choice.  And I used to tell people, but then I stopped because I got tired of people telling me that I needed to get laid, that I would be more fun, that I needed to relax.  That I wasn't normal, that I wasn't this or that, etc.  all because I wasn't having sex.  I felt left out, discriminated against, made to feel less than... because I'm a virgin.   You may not realize it, the many out there who aren't virgins may not realize it, but yes, virgins are insulted and made fun of and are the butts of jokes CONSTANTLY.  And it's it's insulting and humiliating.  And one learns to just suck it up and ignore it and not to let anyone, even their closest friends, know this thing about themselves because it's something to be ashamed of, it's something that is wrong.   So, take it from someone knows, yes, it is a thing.  It is widespread, and it is real.

              We all made this journey for a reason. -- President Barack Obama (February 10, 2007)

              by arabian on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 09:39:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  with all due respect (0+ / 0-)

                everyone is a virgin by default.  I am sorry you had the experiences you had. No one should be made to feel less for their own choices and opinions. I will say that in my own opinion that's not what I saw with that comment but I do understand and respect that you saw it differently.

                Der Weg ist das Ziel

                by duhban on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 11:03:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  the "professional help" quip was (4+ / 0-)

      unnecessary. Well, the other personal, ad hominem comment were unpleasant as well, but implying mental health issues makes it worse.

      Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

      by AaronInSanDiego on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 09:57:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Apparently for some (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    churchylafemme, btfsilence

    Insulting someone by calling them gay is not ok.

    But insulting them calling them a virgin is just fine.

    Hypocrisy.

    Thank you for brining this to our attention.

  •  If I may offer... (5+ / 0-)

    ...a single word which may provide some perspective: context.

    In fact, to put a finer point on it, societal context.

    When is some humor deemed racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic or what have you and, therefore, unacceptable? When it trades in demeaning characterizations that have been part and parcel of the societal marginalization of whatever group is involved.

    I can think of no time when virgins have been systemically marginalized, oppressed and cruelly maligned for their status.

    And more to the point, as Wee Mama notes above, we were all virgins once. Just as we were all children once. To the best of my knowledge, there's no unacceptable form of humor called "childist" or perhaps "kinderphobic." Or about youth in any form.

    Politically incorrect humor of whatever nature has at its roots the fact of emotional remove from its subject: it's not about "us;" it's always about "them." Which incidentally provides the simple reason for certain types of jokes or terminology being deemed acceptable when they're made within a particular group rather than by those outside of it.

    So virginity is a state with which we can all identify - if only in retrospect - and which has never been the subject of either cruel characterizations or disdain from an oppressive majority.

    In short: it's okay because we've all been there.  

    •  I said the same to the diarist this morning. (4+ / 0-)

      He was more interested in his own above the top hurt feelings. In a diary about the most horrific things possible being said about women in the public sphere, 'virgin' was all he identified with and saw.

      He didn't get support so wrote this diary.

      The irony is that unless women are virgins they are whores. And this guy is crying that virgins aren't getting their due respect.

      In our criminal justice system, a Republican is presumed innocent until the 2nd Coming. - Gooserock

      by ExpatGirl on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 06:36:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, we tried, anyway. ; ) n/t (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        duhban, ExpatGirl
      •  You didn't say anything like that to me... (0+ / 0-)

        This morning.  You said insulting virgins was somehow pointing out the GOPs hypocrisy.  Which it wasn't.  It was just insulting virgins.

        The irony is that your viewpoint is really the same as the GOP.  Guys who have sex are winners, and guys who don't have sex are losers.  And women who have sex are sluts.  And those who don't are prudes.  Its all part of the same point of view, seemingly supported by many here when it lets them feel superior.

        Its sad that, on a website where a million words have been written about how unjustified those execrable words about women are, and where no one has written any words in support of those words, people are so offended that someone should point out that, hey, maybe you shouldn't be insulting a group of people that had nothing to do with the original words?

        Do you think it would have been OK to call out gays, Jews, the disabled, Muslims, or any other group in that other diary?  If not, then why virgins?

        •  No. I said you were misreading (0+ / 0-)

          what was being said.

          You have some issues. They are yours. Deal with them.

          In our criminal justice system, a Republican is presumed innocent until the 2nd Coming. - Gooserock

          by ExpatGirl on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 07:08:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, one of my issues... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            churchylafemme

            is people who think its ok to insult other people who have done nothing wrong, and who don't deserve to be insulted.

            And I am dealing with it, by posting this diary.

            •  Posting a whiny, self-absorbed diary is (0+ / 0-)

              you dealing with your deep sense of shame over being a virgin?

              Sorry. Not buying it. The more I think about it the more it seems like an MRA screed designed to shame women for the fact that you feel unfulfilled.

              In a diary about 90% of American women being reduced to 'whores' this is the route you chose. In that diary and then, when you weren't fulfilled, in this one.

              Issues.

              In our criminal justice system, a Republican is presumed innocent until the 2nd Coming. - Gooserock

              by ExpatGirl on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 07:58:36 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Than you clearly aren't thinking very hard. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Kane in CA, AaronInSanDiego

                How is this an MRA screed shaming women?

                Where have I insulted any woman?  Or even said anything remotely insulting to women? What have I said that has in any way shamed women?  

                I don't think its too much to ask, however, that I not be treated like shit for being a virgin, anymore than I deserve to be treated like shit for being Jewish, or being fat, or being disabled.  

                I guess that is too much to ask amongst some people, though.

                Its more an issue of your complete lack of empathy, however, rather than me being an MRA.

                •  She's not the one showing a lack of empathy. (0+ / 0-)

                  I don't entirely disagree with you, I want to put that out there first.

                  Thing is, though...as has been pointed out, this discussion started in a diary about some of the vile things that have been said about women recently.  The fact of the matter is, women have been oppressed, often brutally, for centuries, in ways that virgins haven't.

                  And ExpatGirl made an extremely valid point earlier when she discussed her rape, and how that rape, in the minds of many, would make her a "whore."

                  And that, quite frankly, is worse, and more harmful, than anything virgins have to deal with.  

                  Yes, the jokes made were insulting to virgins.  But that's nowhere near what many women have to go through on a daily basis.  This is the point that many are trying to make to you.  In a discussion about the fact that women have historically been considered immoral if they have any sex at all, including being raped, you chose, instead, to make it about yourself.  There certainly is someone displaying a lack of empathy here, but it's not who you think.

                  And this is speaking as someone who was a virgin well past the average age.

        •  I attempted to answer the questions... (0+ / 0-)

          ...in your final paragraph in my comment above.

          Any thoughts?

          As to GOP hypocrisy, the way I see it is that we're dealing with a group of adults who, presumably, have and enjoy as much sex as anyone else, but who opportunistically exploit the peculiar duality found in our secular society that simultaneously both loves and is ashamed of its sexual urges.

          They typically make no secret of their spouses and children - and in some cases, their paramours - so, if they're average, healthy and well-adjusted adults, why do they go publicly bonkers over sex, insist on injecting it into public policy and lecture about the "consequences" that should go with it? Particularly when those consequences seem to apply only to others?  

          In other words, they suddenly act like something that's a part of their lives isn't, and that those for whom it is should be punished.

          That's where I see the hypocrisy.

  •  Insulting virgins usually goes along the line (4+ / 0-)

    of calling them frigid, or too ugly, who would want them, she/he looks queer or other insults.

    There is the clear imputation that the person is somehow flawed, or failed or socially undesirable.

    So yeah it is an insult.  if the question "Why is  this person's private life an issue with you?" (the insulter), can only be answered, by a rational person, "There is not rational reason at all, its just hatred."

  •  If the diarist's examples aren't sufficient, this (4+ / 0-)

    one should be: http://www.dailykos.com/...

    I'd like to kick them all in the nuts and explain in detail how they have no game, and if you can't find a single women to have sex with you, you have failed at life.

    222 house republicans support the Ryan budget that would convert Medicare to a premium-support program. In other words, they want to repeal Medicare and replace it with a system that works just like Obamacare.

    by happymisanthropy on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 08:18:23 PM PDT

  •  This is an MRA meeting. (0+ / 0-)

    I am appalled that it has been uprated.

    In our criminal justice system, a Republican is presumed innocent until the 2nd Coming. - Gooserock

    by ExpatGirl on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 08:51:40 PM PDT

    •  No, its not. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kane in CA

      Despite how many times you repeat such an insult.  Name me one single MRA thing that has been said?

      Its a meeting for people who have empathy.  Which is probably why you don't feel welcome.  

      •  It isn't a meeting for 'people'. (0+ / 0-)

        It is a meeting for men who feel shame about being virgins.

        Someone even brought up Elliot Rodgers in this thread. Disgusting. I noticed that you had nothing to say about that.

        Women can be called 'whores' until the cows come home but say the word 'virgin' in connection with misogynists and more women might get killed. Lovely.

        In our criminal justice system, a Republican is presumed innocent until the 2nd Coming. - Gooserock

        by ExpatGirl on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 09:33:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So male virgins aren't even human to you? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Kane in CA, happymisanthropy

          Good to know.

          The person who brought up Elliot Rodgers made about 2 posts here.  Its pretty disgusting that you would try to tie that to me, or to anyone else in this thread except the person who posted it.  But you are one of the more disingenuous and dishonest people I've conversed with online, so I'm not exactly surprised you would try to do that.

          And who says its OK to call women whores here?  I've read a lot of posts on dailykos, and I don't think I've ever read anyone say thats ok.  Plenty of people, yourself included, who think its fine to use virgin as an insult, though.  A view you happen to have in common with many of the misogynists and MRAs you seemingly wish to scorn.  

          So yeah, that is quite lovely.

  •  There is nothing shameful about being a virgin. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    StevenWells, ExpatGirl

    There is also nothing shameful about NOT being a virgin.
    The GOP, or at least those portions of it exemplified by Rush Limbaugh and his ilk, seem to think there is something shameful (at least for an unmarried woman) in not being a virgin. I don't see the hashtags to which you object as being an attempt to shame virgins. I see them as an attempt to counteract the GOP attempt to shame NON-virgins.

    Bin Laden is dead. GM and Chrysler are alive.

    by leevank on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 08:59:22 PM PDT

  •  Hmm. . . (5+ / 0-)

    I wrote a long comment in the other diary defending your position, so I do see where you're coming from.

    However, in my 10 years here, the "stewing over an interaction in a comment thread, and then turning it into a diary" model has been nothing but a sure recipe for frustration, particularly when -- whether fairly or not -- your opinion runs against the dominant grain.

    I became a much happier community member when I learned to walk away from such arguments rather than escalating them.

    I can see where there may be opportunity to open a dialogue on the challenges faced by well-intentioned people who, for various reasons, have trouble finding romantic partners -- and the under-appreciated anguish that comes from the society-wide, ubiquitous ridicule of "losers" in that particular game. Believe me -- been there, done that. However, it's impossible to get such a dialogue started when it's couched in a multi-diary confrontation.

    You won't believe what this gay dolphin said to a homeless child. First you'll be angry, but then at the 1:34 mark your nose will bleed tears of joy.

    by cardinal on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 09:28:33 PM PDT

  •  One dimension that has not been brought up (5+ / 0-)

    is the perspective of asexuals. These folks are not engaged in sexual relationships and feel no interest or desire for them. The pervasive notion that all mature adults are sexually active and failing to be is somehow defective is a significant burden on them.



    Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

    by Wee Mama on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 10:52:57 PM PDT

  •  There IS a lot of shaming (5+ / 0-)

    going on about men being virgins.
    It's considered unmanly:
      If you're a virgin, there's something wrong with you.
      If you're a virgin, you're not confident.
      If you're a virgin, it must be because you're ugly.
      If you're a virgin, then you might be sexually impotent.
    Saying "it's just a joke" ignores that there is a social stigma against being a virgin. It's also likely ignoring the years you spent between Jr. high and high school. Probably college too.
    When I was just 19 in college some people tried to get me to join them in an orgy. These people were unattractive, and already the male-to-female ratio was too much toward the male side that I wouldn't have been interested even if they weren't unattractive. But I tried to be polite and explain that I wouldn't be free to join them, as I had school the next day (I had to get to class as early as 1pm!), and after a bit of begging, the insults came:
    "What's wrong, you gay? Your dick don't work?" etc. etc.
    I, as a man didn't accept sex, so there must have been something "wrong" with me.
    I don't think the hashtags #SexIsScary #WomenDontLikeMe #IcantFindHerCl** were virgin-shaming, but the other three were, and make these three look worse by association.

  •  I appreciate what youre saying (0+ / 0-)

    And calls for compassion do occasionally fall on deaf ears here, depending on the subject.
    But I don't see the stigmatizing of virgins going on to any great extent here or on the streets of America. I think that may be so for a very few, notably the "cool kids," but I think in most corners of the world its not. Its none of anybody's business who's a virgin and who isn't and I think in general most people just don't care.
    Who gives a dam what the 'cool kids' say anyway?

    Happy just to be alive

    by exlrrp on Fri Jul 04, 2014 at 06:00:40 AM PDT

  •  It's probably too late to post this, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AaronInSanDiego, StevenWells

    but it seems to me that the original diary and comments to which this diary is a reply was more about the GOP being subject to their own division of women into virgins and sluts. If they believe people who have sex are sluts, then they must be either sluts (and  hypocrites) or virgins-- there are no other designations in their world. The humor comes from a "hoist by their own petard" place, not a "shame the virgins" place.
    Just my two cents.

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