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(Written by an American expat living in Germany where German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011)

This week the Sonoma County California prosecutor stated they will not prosecute a Northern California sheriff's deputy in the matter of the shooting death of 13 year old Andy Lopez. Socorro Shiels, Santa Rosa schools superintendent, said of Andy: "His administrators and teachers will remember him as kind, intelligent and capable." http://www.petaluma360.com/...

Andy Lopez was a 13 year old all American boy of Hispanic descent from Santa Rosa, Calif who while walking home from school with a friend's BB gun was shot and killed by Deputy Gelhaus on October 22nd 2013. After a full investigation Sonoma county prosecutor just as in the 60 cases that had proceeded this incident elected not to prosecute law enforcement officers in the matter of the killing. In doing so this created wide spread protests in the Santa Rosa Hispanic community and beyond.

The story prima facie seems to pattern itself indistinguishably to a long list of such shooting tragedies that occur throughout America with such regularity that they become accepted as part of the social norm. Except that as an American expat living in the EU I know that internationally this is not the norm. Therefore this diary offers a perspective that is different enough that you are likely to find this is anything but the run of the mill usual story. In fact this is also due in part to the fact Deputy Gelhaus has been unusually outspoken publicly in his position, as a published author essentially advocating a policy of shoot first and ask questions later for police officers. So strongly does he advocate this position in his published writings, that one begs to ask the question does such advocacy come close to the standard of mens rea which in law refers to the guilty mind required for premeditation. So you see this isn't at all your run of the mill shooting tragedy article, and indeed if you take the time to read on you may find this diary is an altogether different event.

As a young boy growing up in America of European ethnicity, we never were in fear of being shot to death when we ran around in our neighborhood with our BB guns during our pre-teen years. Later in our teens many of us graduated to responsible gun ownership in our first 22 rifle and learned responsible gun ownership and gun safety almost as a right of passage before we went into the military. By which time many of us were crackshots already. Of course in the military either on active duty or in the National Guard we learned that we had to operate within certain rules of engagement which meant that the decision to pull the trigger was never taken beforehand. This is the direct opposite of what Deputy Gelhaus as a military and police firearm's instructor and SWAT officer advocates in his published writings. He says you have to take that decision beforehand or you may not come home. Certainly we must ask is this why Andy Lopez never made it home that day and in fact will never be allowed to come home again.

Let's look at the brief facts of the case as shown in the video below taken by a passerby's cell phone camera moments after the shooting, which shows Officer Gelhaus hiding behind the open door of his police cruiser and his partner doing the same thing right after it is believed the fatal shots had already rang out. Statements taken show that Andy was walking home when the police cruiser came up behind him, where the police officers came out, hid behind their doors and allegedly ordered Andy several times to drop the gun. As Andy Lopez was wearing a hoodie covering his ears it's possible he may not have clearly heard the officer's command and when predictably as the startled child, finally turned around to see what was going on according to witnesses he was shot and killed by Deputy Gelhaus, who claims that the barrel of the BB gun as Andy was turning was moving in his direction. He therefore felt threatened and in fear of his life and for this reason he claims he took the decision to shoot Andy to death, where he shot him 7 times. Concurrently his partner for reasons unknown did not shoot Andy at all. This was the tragic and indeed very sad set of circumstances that unraveled. The community's feeling a sense of betrayal and deja vu concurrently having suffered 60 deaths in the past decade was visibly shaken, disturbed and rightly grief stricken. Clearly if there had been a good community policing effort the officers should have known Andy who had lived in the area all his life. But deputy Gelhaus was a complete stranger to Andy.

California law isn't really too much different than the law in other States, in that it gives police officers an enormous amount of discretion, as to whether or not to shoot and kill a suspect, who they genuinely feel their lives are threatened by, fearing death or serious injury would come to themselves or someone else. It is this trust that the law places in its sworn police officers that the community in Rosa feels has betrayed them, that in fact it was plainly visible and indeed obvious to witnesses at the time of the shooting that neither of these officers or anyone else was ever in any danger from Andy Lopez. This becomes clear from the account of witness Ismael Mondragon, who said that he could tell that this was clearly just a toy gun by the way Andy was carrying it, swinging it around because it had no weight to it at all. He says quote, "no because it was very light, when he was walking with that very light." Even cut versions of the Ak47 like the AIMR and the AKS-74U aren't weightless.

Indeed this very issue is in evidence with the photographs below. A close examination of which proves Mr Mondragon's point. In what appears to be a public relation's move by the Sheriff's dept and County prosecutor, in what may only be described as a show and tell public relation's exercise, we see that the Deputy holding the toy BB gun in his right hand furthest away from the camera is able to hold it right out there easily for what was a sustained period of a photo op. Whereas the real AKA 47 he holds in the other hand is held in much closer to his body, this is due to the weight of the weapon, and anyone who knows anything about firearms at all would immediately understand that.  

 The BB gun which is continually referred to by the Sheriff's Dept and the press as a replica AKA 47 assault rifle is anything but an actual replica. However many Americans have been shot to death by police at their front door holding nothing more than a remote control in their hands, because an officer claims he was in genuine fear of his life and took a split second decision to fire his weapon and kill the resident. So the fact the BB gun isn't an actual AKA 47 replica, (it doesn't even have a front iron sight) that has no weight to it at all doesn't really matter as much as we would think. You see because that kind of a weapon with its weight couldn't be carried in the left arm in a sustained fashion walking along by the average skinny armed 13 year old child under 5 foot in height. If such a weapon were in fact real it would have to be carried with a sling . Still when confronting a 24 year veteran Sheriff's Deputy Gelhaus, who has had military experience in Iraq and is a trained swat officer, you would expect his trained powers of observation to have noted what witnesses at the scene, to include Mr Mondragon noticed, which was the toy gun had no weight to it at all.

But that really didn't matter, because Deputy Gelhaus in his writings clearly stated that you have to make the decision to kill in advance. We know that's true because he did kill Andy Lopez without hesitation just as the boy was turning around, even before his partner could take a decision to shoot. From accounts Andy Lopez was already dead because Deputy Gelhaus took the decision in advance by way of premeditation that he would be coming home that night, which for Andy tragically meant that he would never be able to come home again.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In another online post, Gelhaus described his tenure as a deputy as a time of "the good, bad, terrible & indifferent," and advised one person asking for career advice to consider the potential of having to face the "very rare" situation of "having to take a life so that you survive and go home to yours."

Gelhaus wrote.
 THE TIME TO MAKE THAT DECISION IS NOW, NOT AT 1A.M. IN A MUDDY DITCH OR GARBAGE-FILLED PARKING LOT,"
http://www.petaluma360.com/...
 

 .

ACCORDING TO THE BRITISH NEWS PAPER THE MAIL. FROM THE TIME GELHAUS REPORTED SEEING ANDY HE WOULD HAVE LESS THEN 10 SECONDS TO LIVE.
This clearly speaks to a degree of disturbing premeditation,

The Daily Mail
Those who have protested the shooting said the deputy did not give ample warning
before opening fire. Investigators have said 10 seconds elapsed between the time
Gelhaus and a trainee reported a 'suspicious person' and then reported shots fired
to dispatchers. The trainee did not open fire
.

 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...

Because while no one can know what exactly at the moment the shots rang out what a police officer is thinking, and the laws says in Calif if he is in fear of his life and he is able to convince others of that fact, that he will not be prosecuted. As the law provides for a presumption that we will trust the police officer's word in this regard, there isn't any way for the public to actually know what Deputy Gelhaus was thinking. therefore he is entitled to say that he felt in fear of his life, and therefore fired his service revolver 7 times into Andy Lopez, almost instantly as he was turning around. From the autopsy report we know that Andy was shot in the back before he was even able to turn all the way around as he was stuck in the right buttock.
"During Thursday's autopsy, Dr. Arthur Josselson with the Forensic Medical Group determined one of the fatal bullets entered the right side of Lopez's chest and a second fatal wound was caused by a bullet that entered his right hip, Henry said.

Lopez was also wounded on his right wrist, left bicep, right forearm, right buttocks and right hip, all non-fatal injuries, Henry said. The doctor recovered three bullets from the body.

Investigators also found four rounds in the area of the shooting."

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/...

As a defense Gelhaus simply says he was in fear of his life and had to shoot.
 As none of us are mind readers, this type of police officer's defense could never be interfered with by the public, except for one thing, Deputy Gelhaus published that you have to make this decision in advance in his writings. This is truly disturbing, because this speaks to a clear degree of premeditation. The law doesn't say you are allowed to take this decision beforehand as to how you will or won't react. The law says you must take that decision right there and then, and that meant at 3:14 pm on October 22nd 2013 which was the time of Andy's death, that decision had to be taken by, because that is the only instant that Deputy Gelhaus is allowed under the color of law to take the life of Andy, as a justifiable homicide.
Whereas Deputy Gelhaus says in his heart he had already taken that decision beforehand, and therefore he is not entitled to the protection provided by California law given his premeditation as in evidence by his writing. Where he incites others to do the same thing.
In law school I learned for the first time the phrase police testalying. Where it is believed veteran police officers mentor younger police officers on how to best lie when testifying in Court. Is this what Gelhaus with complete impunity is doing here below? If not why not and how should we feel about police officers suborning perjury with complete impunity as the price of them protecting the property of the rich, so as to keep them in power no matter what the cost!!
__________

Gelhaus' participation in the forum was confirmed Friday by Denny Hansen, S.W.A.T.'s editor-in-chief.

In one revealing thread, forum members debated whether the use of force is justified if someone brandishes or fires a BB GUN at another person.

Gelhaus chimed in, writing that "It's going to come down to YOUR ability to
articulate to law enforcement and very likely the Court
that you were in fear of death or serious bodily injury.

"I think we keep coming back to this, articulation -- your ability to explain why --
will be quite significant," Gelhaus wrote.

http://www.petaluma360.com/...
__________

Now we get to the real tragedy of the matter because the prosecutor in the case knew all about this. She even knew about Deputy Gelhaus' writings on point and she still refused to prosecute him, even refusing to take the matter to the Grand Jury, who therefore was never entitled based on their preponderance of the evidence to take a decision. As such given the unlawful actions of Deputy Gelhaus and the prosecutorial negligence, the people are crying out that the Federal Dept of Justice investigate the matter. There seems to be clear evidence that law enforcement in this case is unable to police itself properly and as such I ask and urge you to write to your member of Congress and ask them to forward your letter to the Dept of Justice, even if you're not from the State of Calif, because this is an area of federal responsibility and jurisdiction, as the civil right's of Andy Lopez have been clearly violated. To prevent further abuses all across America, a full Dept of Justice investigation is warranted, particularly as in the past decade there has been in excess of 60 suspicious deaths, where law enforcement to date has not been held to account in Santa Rosa. I say let there be a full and thorough investigation by the Dept of Justice, and let the evidence dictate how the matter is progressed. Therefore I urge you to write a letter to the White House directly to President Obama, because it is his Dept of Justice which has the responsibility to investigate the killing of Andy.

Is Lt. Henry lying?  

"The deputy then fired several rounds from his service weapon at the subject," said Lt. Paul Henry, "striking him at least one time. The subject immediately fell to the ground."

Neighbor Ethan Oliver said he saw things a little differently. Oliver claims he exited his house after hearing two gun shots and saw Lopez already on the ground.

"Then the cops went at it again and unloaded like 6 to 7 shots,” said Oliver. Asked if he meant the deputy shot Andy while he was on the ground, Oliver responded, "Yeah. Exactly what I saw."

 http://www.upi.com/...


HOW DO OTHER HIGHLY INDUSTRIALIZED NATIONS HANDLE THESE TYPES OF PROBLEMS?
As a quick final thought as an American expat living in Germany, the year before last (that is 2012) there was a publication made based on a study throughout all of 2011 that here in Germany police fired less than 85 bullets for the entire year. Half of those shots were warning shots.
German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011

According to Germany's Der Spiegel, German police shot only 85 bullets in all of 2011, a stark reminder that not every country is as gun-crazy as the U.S. of A.
http://news.yahoo.com/...


(Yes it's true German Highway Police drive Porsches as there is no speed limit on the AutoBahn. But then again they are one of the best Police force/PEACE OFFICERS in the world in the richest country in the E.U. Maybe we should import them to train American police in Community policing and public safety).

DID YOU KNOW THAT FROM FROM 1995 TO 2010 THAT THE ENGLISH POLICE ONLY SHOT 33 PEOPLE?

Police have shot dead 33 people since 1995 -

Updated: 00:49 GMT, 26 September 2010
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...


The truth is that we as Americans when we consider the cultural norms of other major industrialized countries like Germany, it's clear that we as Americans have given the militarized police state too much power and too much discretion. Isn't it time that as owners of the country at the ballot box we started taking back some of our power to protect our families, our communities and the American people at large from an out of control police state, who serve and protect primarily the property interests of the 1% instead of the interests and public safety of mainstream working class America. Until the responsible parties for Andy's death are investigated by the DOJ, none of us no matter where we are or who we are will ever be safe again, because this tragic incident has taken our peace of mind. In speaking for myself it has taken my ability to give my old BB gun to anyone else. I will not be able to pass that gift on, because though I never knew him in life, I will always remember Andy.    

Please help us get Andy's story out by sharing this diary and ones like it on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and other social media. We need your help to get the word out. Thank you.


* PS: As a number of posters have wrongly put the blame in their comments on the toy gun manufacturers in the matter of Andy's tragic shooting, rather than Deputy Gelhaus, I would simply like to ask why, oh why, isn't this a problem in Germany, Japan, England to the extent that it is in the U.S. How many more of these senseless tragedies must we suffer before we as owners of the country take action at the ballet box to assert control over the militarized American police state.  


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Please feel invited to follow me on Twitter or the Daily Kos.

Daily Kos: Democrats Ramshield
http://www.dailykos.com/...

My email address: democratsramshield@yahoo.com

Originally posted to Democrats Ramshield on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 04:56 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  People are so scared of guns now (36+ / 0-)

    that gone are the days when kids could run around with BB guns.  We all know that anyone with a BB gun must be one of those "gun nuts" kids - probably being indoctrinated into the Jr NRA.  So citizens call in kids who are playing with BB guns or squirt guns - Cops overreact because every Cop knows their life is in danger when a kid brandishes his Red Rider.......so they shoot first - ask questions later.

    Everyone just needs to relax a bit - we're all so scared - we're scared of people, we're scared of guns, we're scared of everything.  

    The news media perpetuates these fears with an onslaught of scary stories.

    Sad that a kid has to die over shit like this....but he's not the first and won't be the last.

    And the criminal justice system just excuses it all.

    The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

    by ctexrep on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 03:06:13 AM PDT

  •  My only comment would get a record number of HRs (6+ / 0-)

    ...so I'll keep it to myself.

    Those with a vivid imagination may insert an outrageous comment here....

    "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

    by leftykook on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 03:37:38 AM PDT

    •  Were you thinking of songs by (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ChuckChuckerson, leftykook

      Ice-T, Tommy Jarrell, and Bob Marley?

      Iron sharpens Iron. Normal is a dryer setting. STOP illegal immigration NOW! -- Make it LEGAL. If Corporations are People--Let's draft them.

      by benamery21 on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 03:49:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  OK, I'll bite. (30+ / 0-)

      What kind of morons make, sell, and buy kids' toys that look like fucking obscene AK-47s?

      All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry. --Edgar Allan Poe

      by gzodik on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 05:27:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  A variety of companies. The sell very well (10+ / 0-)

        because people like them.

        Link to an eBay sale in a comment below.

        $50.

        Legal means "good".
        [41984 | Feb 4, 2005]

        by xxdr zombiexx on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 05:30:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I had the same thought. (12+ / 0-)

        BB guns looked mighty different in my day.

        In our criminal justice system, a Republican is presumed innocent until the 2nd Coming. - Gooserock

        by ExpatGirl on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 06:54:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  To be honest, anyone who's ever been on the (0+ / 0-)

        receiving end of an AK-47 would panic too.  A pistol is no match for the firepower of an AK-47.

        "Because I am a river to my people."

        by lordcopper on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 07:29:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  lordcopper also didn't rec the diary & blames toy (14+ / 0-)

          maker.

          Well certainly I am no fan of those evil toy makers but lets get real. They don't shoot kids in Germany, England or Japan for running around with their toy guns to the extent that this is a problem. It is no where a bigger problem than in America. Now why is that? Could it be that we as the American voters have been brainwashed into giving power over to the militarized American police state. We can change that at the ballot box as the owners of this country. We can take that power back and change the system so that we have good community policing standards. I just made the point up thread, do you know how many people were shot in England last year by the police? The answer is just one.

          In the entire European Union which has the a population greater than that of the United States in a year, there's usually no more than a few dozen firearms deaths in any given year, whereas in America there are an excess of 10 or 11,000 firearm deaths every year and the American people have been brainwashed into accepting this by media propaganda. So I hope you'll excuse me if I say, I am not on board with the evil toy gun manufacturers but reining in won't fix this problem. This problem has be fixed by the American voter at the ballot box. That means that dirty 4 letter word, work.
           

          You ran into a hardcore progressive whos just another working stiff with an MBA degree & vociferous labor union supporter

          by Democrats Ramshield on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 09:09:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  How many mass shootings they have in the EU (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lordcopper

            every year?

            "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubt." Bertrand Russell I'm very certain that is true. 10−122

            by thestructureguy on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 09:51:59 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  How much police brutality in the EU every year? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              OldDragon

              Our liberties we prize and our rights we will maintain.

              by Midwest is best on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 12:31:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You'd better answer that question yourself. (0+ / 0-)

                I'm not sure than I can get far enough into your fantasy world to imagine the answer. I'm not sure that I want to. You probably think that the German word for "police" is "Gestapo."

                This is the landscape that we understand, -
                And till the principle of things takes root,
                How shall examples move us from our calm?

                (Mary Oliver, "Beyond the Snow Belt.")

                by sagesource on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 07:05:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  I rarely rec diaries. There was a national news (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Cvstos, gzodik, Piren

            story some years back where a bank was robbed in LA and it was caught on video.  The bank robbers were armed with AK-47s and were literally able to shoot through parts of the police car (except for the engine block), hitting officers on the other side.  The AK-47 is a formidable weapon not to be taken lightly.  I understand how an officer armed with a 9mm pistol and a shotgun might panic when coming up against this type of weaponry with a 32 round magazine (personally I would have passed him by and called for back up).  I'm aware of the abuses and don't usually hold local police forces in the highest regard, but I understand their desire to "go home" at the end of their shift.  It doesn't get any more basic than that.

            "Because I am a river to my people."

            by lordcopper on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 09:52:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  To lordcopper - I completely disagree (7+ / 0-)

              Look, you won't tell us why you feel that in other major industrialized countries there isn't the problem of cops killing kids with their toy guns to the extent that this problem exists in the US, because you won't tell us what your view is on this subject. We either have to believe that you don't have an opinion or that your opinion is strictly based on the NRA talking points in favor of people like Deputy Gelhaus.

              Gelhaus was about 65 feet away from Andy, so he could see this was a child. In less than 10 seconds of that encounter he killed that child. If Gelhaus had done that in another major industrialized country he would be in prison probably with a life sentence. The fact this isn't the case in the US speaks to the fact that in America we have been brainwashed into worshiping militarized law enforcement.

              You ran into a hardcore progressive whos just another working stiff with an MBA degree & vociferous labor union supporter

              by Democrats Ramshield on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 10:16:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Look, this situation was a tragedy for all (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                thestructureguy, jorogo, gzodik, Piren

                involved (unless you believe the police officer left his home for work that morning with the goal of killing a 13 yo hispanic kid).  You don't have video of the entire event unfolding, so I can't make an informed judgement.  All we know is the kid was carrying what we "now" know was an AK-47 replica, the officer's version of events vs those of witness, and the kid is dead.

                You say you can identify the age of the person and the authenticity of the weapon from 65 ft.  Are you willing to "bet your life" on that?  The best thing that can come of this situation is awareness by parents of the dangers of these "toy guns", and a perhaps a policy change on how the police should engage this situation (although I'm unsure what that policy change would be).  

                In regards to your question why this a particularly American problem, read the news papers.  This country is gun crazy.  Are you telling me that you would feel comfortable if someone walked into your local Starbucks carrying what looked like an AK-47 (even in an open carry jurisdiction)?  I wouldn't.  Given the gun culture and the dangerous weapon, I'm not sure the officer acted in a way that should be punished criminally.  Just an honest answer.

                "Because I am a river to my people."

                by lordcopper on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 10:42:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You've established one thing. (0+ / 0-)

                  The officer was a coward. He's paid to use his judgment, not to shoot anything that might threaten him.

                  This is the landscape that we understand, -
                  And till the principle of things takes root,
                  How shall examples move us from our calm?

                  (Mary Oliver, "Beyond the Snow Belt.")

                  by sagesource on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 07:06:49 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  gzodik didn't rec the diary and blames toy maker (10+ / 0-)

        Ok I get that. You don't want to support the diary and what we're doing here. That's your right, but please let me just ask you this one question. Why don't the German police shoot kids with toy guns. Why isn't that a problem here? You know what, I just got back from England its not  a problem there either. Nor it is a problem in Japan or any of the other major industrialized countries. You know what I think the problem is, I think the American people have been brainwashed into worshiping American law enforcement freedom and discretion to the point where it has created an out of control American police state that no longer serves working class American people but rather instead serves in securing the 1%'s property rights.

        So please, why are we blaming toy manufacturers? You know how many people in Britain were killed by the police last year? One person was shot.  Let's start to actually think about this before we spout off all of the talking points of the plutocratic owned media about the evil toy manufactures. Having said that, I will never give anybody a toy gun again because we see where it leads, but beating up toy manufacturers isn't going to solve the militarization of the American police. The only way to solve that problem is at the ballot box and that requires work and taking responsibility. That's my 2 cents worth.

        You ran into a hardcore progressive whos just another working stiff with an MBA degree & vociferous labor union supporter

        by Democrats Ramshield on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 09:02:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I can try to answer the question (13+ / 0-)

          I”ll preface this by saying that in no way do I support the actions of the police in this case.

          Your question: Why don't the German police shoot kids with toy guns. Why isn't that a problem here?

          My answer: The German police operate in an entirely different environment. The general populace there isn’t awash in handguns and knockoffs of military rifles. If a German police officer sees a child playing with what looks like a gun they are pretty safe proceeding with the assumption it’s a toy.

          Alternately, here in the US children and teenagers frequently possess the real thing. In this country, children and teens can and do get their hands on guns with depressing frequency. In this country, it’s not the least bit outlandish to think that if you saw a teenager walking down the street with what looks like an AK-47 that it could be real and would be loaded.  

          It is true that American police are overly militarized and quick to resort to deadly force. At the same time, it is also true that the level of violence the general population uses against each other as well as against the police themselves, is astronomically higher than in Germany. In the US, dozens of police officers are shot dead every year.

          Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

          by Joe Bob on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 09:56:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Joe Bob - Well to be honest I'm not an arms expert (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            The Hindsight Times, Joe Bob

            but I do know in Germany as elsewhere in Europe since the iron curtain came down that a huge amount of illegal firearms are now available in Western Europe.

            You ran into a hardcore progressive whos just another working stiff with an MBA degree & vociferous labor union supporter

            by Democrats Ramshield on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 10:19:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  There is no comparison (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Caipirinha

              The difference between the US and Europe is that here few people have to deal with the inconvenience of buying guns on the black market. It is so easy and cheap to legally obtain guns here that illegal firearms trafficking is a fringe criminal activity; there is almost no point to it.  

              So long as you are not a convicted felon or adjudicated mentally ill, pretty much anyone can easily find a gun store and buy whatever handgun or rifle they please, short of an actual machine gun. Picture any gun carried by the German police or military and you can legally buy the civilian equivalent through a retail storefront in the US.

              Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

              by Joe Bob on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 12:40:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So.... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Piren

                ....Americans are so rotten that the cops have to have a license to kill?

                The arguments of a gun fan sometimes take him or her to strange places.

                This is the landscape that we understand, -
                And till the principle of things takes root,
                How shall examples move us from our calm?

                (Mary Oliver, "Beyond the Snow Belt.")

                by sagesource on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 07:08:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  I'd like to know - (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PinHole, gzodik, Caipirinha

            are replica guns (bb guns are more guns than toys) for children as popular in Europe as they are in the US? Are they more regulated than here? I can't find any research on that, but it might help to understand why there are far fewer shootings of this nature in Europe.

            "All war is stupid" - JFK

            by jorogo on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 12:34:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  The crux of the biscuit! :-) (0+ / 0-)
          the American people have been brainwashed into worshiping American law enforcement freedom and discretion to the point where it has created an out of control American police state that no longer serves working class American people but rather instead serves in securing the 1%'s property rights.
          Thanks. I wouldn't say all American people, but too many.
      •  Is a "bb gun" a toy, or a gun? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gzodik, Caipirinha

        Toy: something a child plays with
        : something that an adult buys or uses for enjoyment or entertainment
        : something that is very small

        Gun: a weapon that shoots bullets or shells
        : a device that throws a projectile
        : a tool or device that looks like a gun

        Making guns for kids is questionable; making them look like assault weapons worse. I remember how my friend freaked out when I showed him my pellet rifle in my car - he though it was a sawed-off shotgun, and it does look like one, even close up. He told me to keep it hidden....while he was around.

        It's tragic when this mistaken appearance encounters a trigger-happy cop.

        "All war is stupid" - JFK

        by jorogo on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 12:15:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  A 13 yr old is gunned down by a California cop (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        maregug

        and you blame a toy?!?
        Seriously?

        Our liberties we prize and our rights we will maintain.

        by Midwest is best on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 12:29:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Child's toy? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jessbell911, Piren

          I went into the Big 5 Sporting Goods the other day and looked at the cases of pistols. I asked the clerk if they sold a lot of handguns. "We don't carry handguns", he said. "Those are toys".

          I went back and looked in the case. I still couldn't tell them from the real thing. Fucking insane.

          I'm glad I'm not a cop.

          All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry. --Edgar Allan Poe

          by gzodik on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 04:04:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What's your point? (0+ / 0-)

            Do you think a person carrying a gun is to be shot on sight?

            Not in my country, pal.

            Our liberties we prize and our rights we will maintain.

            by Midwest is best on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 04:44:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Question. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jessbell911

              How would you be feeling right now if you had just screwed up and killed a kid?

              All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry. --Edgar Allan Poe

              by gzodik on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 06:06:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hopefully, like I was in jail & facing a life (0+ / 0-)

                sentence.
                But we both know that won't happen here. Police in general & more specifically, police in California are above the law.

                Our liberties we prize and our rights we will maintain.

                by Midwest is best on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 06:16:54 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  He's human (0+ / 0-)

                  He was a kid. Maybe has kids.

                  Of course, you could never make a tragic mistake.

                  All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry. --Edgar Allan Poe

                  by gzodik on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 06:49:17 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm very confident I will never shoot an unarmed (0+ / 0-)

                    kid carrying a toy.

                    If I did, I would expect to be convicted.

                    I disagree with another point of yours: Humans don't kill unarmed children walking home.
                    Did you side with George Zimmerman? I certainly didn't, but even GZ had a better justification than this officer.

                    Our liberties we prize and our rights we will maintain.

                    by Midwest is best on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 06:53:45 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  OK (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Piren

                      They're not human, like we are. String 'em up.

                      Just trying to see if there was any limit to your self-righteousness.

                      All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry. --Edgar Allan Poe

                      by gzodik on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 07:00:12 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  There's a limit. But it's nowhere near shooting an (0+ / 0-)

                        unarmed kid walking home.

                        Our liberties we prize and our rights we will maintain.

                        by Midwest is best on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 07:10:47 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I apologize. (0+ / 0-)

                          You see, I don't believe in passing judgment.

                          I'm not religious, but my grandparents belonged to a primitive sect which is almost gone now, which appealed to me in many ways. Especially that they would not pass judgment. If you criticized someone; no matter what horrible thing he might have done, they would reply, "I can't say. I have not walked in his shoes".

                          I'm sorry to have been critical of you.

                          All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry. --Edgar Allan Poe

                          by gzodik on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 07:51:47 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

          •  The last time I check there are not laws (0+ / 0-)

            in any state that outlaws toy guns. The officer was a trained professional, in the military to boot. He should know the difference with the way Andy was carrying the weapon a light should have gone off. More importantly the shot the kid before he had a chance to respond. Now you can use that argument when toy guns are outlawed in this country. As an officer you can't think or believe everyone of a certain color or background is a threat if they do they're in the wrong field and are a danger to the public.

  •  When do we as American (30+ / 0-)

    say enough and take step to rein in the power of life and death that we have given to the police. It seem that at least 80-85 percent of police killing are not justifiable by any reasonable person after all how hard is it to tell the different between a gun and a TV remote or whatever other object you have the misfortune to have in your hand. Or do we just keep looking the other way and say well it can't happen to me so why should I worry about it. Everyday bring a new story of police abuse it will not end on it own if we don't take steps now it will only be that much harder to stop as time goes on.

    Dogs and Philosophers do the greatest good and get the fewest rewards (Diogenes)

    by Out There on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 04:19:39 AM PDT

  •  Disgusting smear job in the local paper about Andy (20+ / 0-)

    the "Press Democrat" is neither.

    This state is rotting to hell, thanks corporate overlords. Proud owners of our progressive liberal politicians, shelters, and food pantries. The "blue line" here is thick | thicker| thickest.

    Democrats should be ashamed of this corruption, not supportive.

  •  Airsoft rifle. Not even a full-on bb gun (14+ / 0-)

    Airsoft Kalashnikov AK47 Full Faux Wood Stock Spring Rifle

    $50.00

    FPS: 223 w/.20g BBs
    Mag Capacity: 300 rounds
    Power Spring

    You  might put your eye out at close range....but you're not likely to really hurt anybody at ay significant distance, not with that low FPS. (DON'T point these at anybody.....)

    This airsoft gun does not appear to come with an orange plastic tip, like it is supposed to and if you read the linked page it says removing the orange tip (that you don't see) voids the warranty.

    Thise guns are supposed to have the oarge tip to show they are not real firearms.

    I have a couple pellet rifles that are very powerful : the .25 cal shoots a 35 grain pellet about 700 fps and will pierce steel sheets at 12 meters. It does not have the orange tip because it's not a toy.

    Legal means "good".
    [41984 | Feb 4, 2005]

    by xxdr zombiexx on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 05:25:00 AM PDT

  •  Im mixed on this one (27+ / 0-)

    and Ive followed it since the beginning. Yes the cop seems like a class-a asshole, but at the same time that gun does not look like a toy, and unless he was balancing it barrel first on the tip of his finger, I dont think anyone is going to be able to guess the weight of it in mere seconds based on the way it is being held. Still, the police reaction these days is shoot first and ask questions later (if even then). One wonders why this happens to a hispanic teen with a fake gun, but does not ever seem to happy to any of the caucasian open-carry assholes strolling through target with weapons of mass-murder.

    If you stand for nothing you will fall for anything.

    by LieparDestin on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 05:57:20 AM PDT

    •  What if it had been real? That's LEGAL. (20+ / 0-)

      At least in a lot of states--I dunno about California. But IIRC a lot of right-wing gun trolls are assiduously demonstrating throughout America that it's perfectly legal to carry around real guns, openly, in public places.

      "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

      by HeyMikey on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 06:02:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  At least, it's legal if you're white. NT (21+ / 0-)

        "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

        by HeyMikey on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 06:02:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It's not legal to point them (17+ / 0-)

        at people.

        This is a real tragedy. I grew up  on the West Side of Chicago and we certainly didn't play with BB guns. I know people who started carrying concealed weapons at Andy's age.

        I have no special love for the police I can recall four instances of being held at gunpoint by cops. I was never charged with a crime in any of these situations. They  were just scared and using extreme caution when approaching me on traffic stops mostly.

        I never even got a ticket. After establishing that I wasn't a wanted criminal, they wanted to forget the whole thing. I was happy to be alive, so I wasn't going to argue.

        Some of these cops were assholes. Some were very professional and courteous. In either case, I was one sudden movement away from getting shot.

        I know they have a tough job. This past weekend, here in Indianapolis, an officer responding to a 'shots fired' call attempted to question a young man at the scene. The man pulled out an Ak-47 and killed the officer in a gun battle.

        Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

        by OIL GUY on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 06:39:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nice red herring (14+ / 0-)

          There is no evidence, even by the deputies, that Andy pointed the gun at anyone.  The very worst interpretation is that it came around when he turned around to see who was yelling.

          "I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man..." Robbie Robertson

          by NearlyNormal on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 07:17:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not saying he deliberately (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jorogo, Pixie5, HeyMikey

            pointed the gun at the officers. I don't think that at all! But I do see how the officer could have interpreted misinterpret his actions.

            What makes this so tragic is that I don't see anyone acting with malice. Andy was innocently playing with an all too real looking gun. The officer was in fear of his own life.

            The real villain in this sad tale are the people who make and distribute firearms and the knuckleheads who sell realistic replicas of said firearms.

            Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

            by OIL GUY on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 11:38:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  But what if turning around was the problem? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            OIL GUY, HeyMikey

            We have no video of this. But depending on how this kid was holding his gun and the view that the deputy had it might have looked like he was turning around to shoot. Did the deputy have a clear view of the gun to be able to see that it was a toy?

            As tragic as this is I am not willing to jump to the conclusion that it was the deputy's fault. I also can't say that it wasn't his fault either. I can't know.

            But one thing WE DO KNOW. That kid would be alive today if he hadn't been carrying that gun. There would have been no reason for the cops to notice him and try to detain him.

            This is what gun culture does to Americans. We get jumpy. I am sorry but in CA it is not unusual for 13 year old kids to have guns, even assault rifles in some neighborhoods. Hell even in good neighborhoods shit can happen. We have gang shootings all the time. And we are recovering from ANOTHER mass shooting in Santa Barbara.

            If I had seen that kid carrying that, I would have called the cops myself.

            What if it had been a civilian that shot him because he didn't know it was fake? You can argue possibly that a cop should be able to tell, but what about others?

            These toys should be taken off the market. Not only because of tragic stuff like this, but because it ENCOURAGES gun violence. Would this kid have grown up thinking that it was okay to have REAL assault weapons? Would he have been the next dangerous gun nut out there?

            I take the phrase "Bleeding Heart Liberal" as a compliment...

            by Pixie5 on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 04:24:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Not in CA. Thank God. I'd be afraid of leaving (0+ / 0-)

        my house.

        I take the phrase "Bleeding Heart Liberal" as a compliment...

        by Pixie5 on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 04:01:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I was thinking the exact same thing. (21+ / 0-)

      I am not trying to exonerate the cop in any way but that toy looks too much like the AK.  Especially when viewed from a distance and for just a few seconds. Shame on the company that manufactures such things.

      So why have we not seen a bunch of similar shootings of open-carry idiots walking into Walmart or Starbucks? Why did the cop open fire on the kid instead of asking to see his permit?

      Please do not be alarmed. We are about to engage... the nozzle.

      by Terrapin on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 06:08:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I believe the kid (13+ / 0-)

        was giving hardly any warning and was shot in the back as he turned towards the cop ( i could be mistaken so please correct me if I am) and I  think the situation could have been handled very differently so in the end I do believe the police were are at fault here. Another real problem though is the gun culture in this country where carrying around a fake ak is a 'toy' or a 'game'.  

        If you stand for nothing you will fall for anything.

        by LieparDestin on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 06:16:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Contrast to all the restraint used with White Male (11+ / 0-)

          carrying rifle in MI 2 months back:

          http://talkingpointsmemo.com/...

          "Yes, I'd like to report something," one man told a 911 dispatcher that day, May 4, according to audio obtained by MLive.com. "There's an elderly man walking down the street with, it looks like to be an assault rifle. I don't know if its a bb gun, a pellet gun, or whatnot. But, I mean, he's older, he's an elderly man, and I just want to be sure everything is going to be alright."
          Poor Mr Lopez didn't have a chance to spout off about revolution and yell obscenities at LEOs:

          http://www.dailykos.com/...

          "If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition /= GTFO" Dr. Bernice Johnson Reagon + JVolvo

          by JVolvo on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 08:32:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I'll Bet You Can Find Dashcam Videos . . . (4+ / 0-)

          where it went like this:

          Voice (1): Hands up! Hands up!
          Voice (2): Don't move! Don't move!
          Voice (1): Get down! Get down!
          Voice (3): Wha..?
          [Blam! Blam! Blam!]

          Elapsed time about 10-15 seconds.

          Not hating on the police, but some are predisposed to use untoward force in almost all situations. Call it lack of training, lack of discipline, lack of supervision, over-militarized departments, psychologically unsuited, amped - there are innumerable possible reasons for this kind of law enforcement failure. Think about the multi-car chase in Cleveland some months ago.

          "A famous person once said, 'You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.' But as I once said, "If you don't teach them to read, you can fool them whenever you like." – Max Headroom

          by midnight lurker on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 10:04:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  So, you could be mistaken (0+ / 0-)

          about what happened, and that translates into a belief of who's at fault? You may not realize it yet, but you have a job waiting for you at CNN.
          Of course, they'd cut you off before you went into the valid gun culture observation; your 20-second sound-bite news story would have been over by then.

          "All war is stupid" - JFK

          by jorogo on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 12:51:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Walking while brown in a poor neighborhood? (7+ / 0-)
        Why did the cop open fire on the kid instead of asking to see his permit?
        I might have a slightly different opinion if this hadn't happened two weeks before Andy was so accidentally murdered. When you're a white "local business developer", the outcome is different.
        •  Sure, but the kid they killed in the back (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          eyo, YsosadisticGOP, Terrapin

          of his parents van having a mental health crisis was white.  They are ready to shoot, and if you think being white is a shield just go put one of them on the spot.  This is a crisis of the militarization of the cops, there is terrible racism in the system, but this is not confined to any color.  And, the "brown" deputies I know, here in Sonoma, are as supportive of Gelhaus as any others.

          As an aside, as I was on the outskirts of the Courthouse yesterday, getting my fair share of abuse, another old white guy walked up to me and said, "If these people had to be sheriffs for one week they'd change their tune".  I asked him whether he though they'd shoot kids.  He just walked away.  We have to stop taking troops and letting them loose on the street.

          "I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man..." Robbie Robertson

          by NearlyNormal on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 07:24:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Agreed, poor and mentally ill are killed as equals (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            NearlyNormal
            there is terrible racism in the system, but this is not confined to any color.
            I can't parse that, but think I get the drift.
            •  The difference is... (0+ / 0-)

              ....how hard you have to push their buttons.

              If you're white, you usually have to do it pretty hard.

              If you aren't, it's sometimes enough to look in the direction of the buttons.

              This is the landscape that we understand, -
              And till the principle of things takes root,
              How shall examples move us from our calm?

              (Mary Oliver, "Beyond the Snow Belt.")

              by sagesource on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 07:14:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  IIRC it is illegal to openly carry a firearm (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Midwest is best, Pixie5, Piren

        in California. The police upon seeing someone with something that looks like a weapon, their default position is not one of innocence but of guilt and they act in accordance with the law being broken. People who have been openly carrying at Walmart and Starbucks aren't breaking the law which is probably a reason why they aren't getting shot.

        As unpopular as this position may be, if open carry were legal in California, the police would not have assumed that a crime was being committed. They may have questioned the child to determine why he was carrying an AK and upon doing so they would have found out it was a bb gun and not an actual AK.

        You eat a lot of acid, Miller, back in the hippie days?

        by oldpunk on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 07:03:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  That gun may not look like a toy but (22+ / 0-)

      last I checked, 13 year olds still looked like 13 year olds.

      If the child wasn't posing an active threat, why shoot to kill?

      In our criminal justice system, a Republican is presumed innocent until the 2nd Coming. - Gooserock

      by ExpatGirl on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 06:57:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  LieparDestin I see you didn't rec the diary either (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Smoh

      Certainly that's your right and I respect that you have chosen that you don't support what we're trying to do here because you say you're mixed in your feelings.

      Let me ask you, why are you mixed? Why are you confusing the responsibility of  a toy gun manufacturer with the responsibility of public service and the voters. More over, why don't the police kill kids in Germany, Britain, Japan, etc for playing with toy guns. Why is this problem almost ever only in to the extent it is a problem in America?

      I mentioned up thread that last year as was the case in previous years only one person per year gets shot by the police in England. Why do you think that is. Why do you think that the American police shoot more bullets in one incident than the German police does in an entire year. Isn't the real problem is the American people have been brainwashed into accepting a militarized out of control police state, wherein the only way to fix it is for the voter to fix it at the ballot box. Isn't that a real problem we should be discussing here rather than those evil toy manufacturers. And again I'm not going to be giving any more toy guns to anybody but I do recognize that our problem is bigger than toy makers. It's amazing to me to the extent our fellow Americans are willing bend in their worship of the militarized law enforcement state, now we've even too stooped to blaming toy manufacturers. What next? I mean...have we entered a theater of the absurd here or what.

      You ran into a hardcore progressive whos just another working stiff with an MBA degree & vociferous labor union supporter

      by Democrats Ramshield on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 09:18:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Dem Ramshfield (0+ / 0-)

        I havent rec'd the diary yet because I am logged on at work and for some reason certain links are unavailable to click on due to some wierd securtiy settings. I have the same problem trying to edit a diary Ive posted at work. I certainly will rec it when home however. Excessive police force is something I write about often, I dont excuse the cop for shooting the kid, but at the same time I think there are also a lot of other factors to blame, not just excessive aggression on the part of an over militarized police.

        See my diary here on the militarization of police forces:
        http://www.dailykos.com/... in which I include the story of the toddler shot by a flash grenade and scarred for life.

        TV shows like COPS and DALLAS SWAT, and Dog the Bounty Hunter and all the other millions have desenistized the nation to believe this type of police force is needed. 'Protect and Serve' has turned into ' 'Enforce the standard quo'.

        Cops are expected to be labeled heroes for the jobs they do, but are expected to take no risk and resort to deadly action on the most basic of things. Shooting unarmed elderly, assaulting parapalegics, shooting innocent dogs on weekly basic and generally violating every aspect of their stated mission. Now it will become far worse with the influx of ex military and contractors joining the police forces to treat the citizens like they did the civilians overseas.

        If you stand for nothing you will fall for anything.

        by LieparDestin on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 10:02:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  One thing you are ignoring... (0+ / 0-)

        I am assuming in Europe where you are gang-shootings are rare? My impression is that violent crime in general is not as bad there.

        Here in CA gang-violence is an everyday thing. This causes EVERYONE TO BE JUMPY. Including the police.

        Not only that but we have had mass shootings as well.

        Since there is no video of what happened we do not know definitively whether the cop is guilty or not.

        However we do know that kid WOULD NOT BE DEAD if he had not been carrying that gun. It does not matter that it was a toy.

        Why? Because the police would not have had any reason to notice him and try to detain him.

        Beyond that these toys contribute to gun culture. Would this kid have grown up to be the another gun nut carrying around assault rifles because that is his "right"?

        Yes I do believe that the toy company is at least partially responsible for this. For that matter the companies that make REAL GUNS for FOUR YEAR OLDS are at fault for normalizing "kiddie guns" and making our nation complacent about gun violence!

        I take the phrase "Bleeding Heart Liberal" as a compliment...

        by Pixie5 on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 04:55:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You keep bringing up not reccing your diary (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LieparDestin

        as if it's some kind of black mark on the people commenting.

        Nobody is obligated to rec your diary if they don't want to, even if they agree with the thrust of it. You should probably get used to this. For example: I'm not going to rec your diary.

        Personally, I feel like that kind of Not-Real-Gun shouldn't be in the hands of kids, or at the very least you shouldn't be able to take off the orange toy indicator without wrecking it. I don't blame the cop for being alarmed.

        I do blame the cop for emptying his revolver into the kid first thing. That's fucked up.

    •  Mixed feelings as well. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lordcopper, Pixie5

      While it does appear to be over-reaction on part of the police in this case, I recognize that the police are often in a rock or hard place situation. If a cop hesitates, then its possible that he or his partner could get shot, if he reacts too quickly, then tragedies like this occur.

      Toy guns have caused too many kids to be shot, mainly as they look too realistic, especially from a distance, seen only for an instant and under a stressful situation where a decision by the cops has to be made in seconds (doesn't sound like this was the situation here). The trend of making the toys look too much like the real thing adds to the problem.

      The gang situation, where young kids get involved and initiation can include shooting someone, keeps the cops very vigilant towards youth with any guns.  

      The problem is that here's a young kid walking down the street with a toy gun, doing absolutely nothing wrong, and completely oblivious on how the toy gun appears to a cop. The cop sees a youth (?gang banger?) with what appears to be an assault rifle. The difference in perception is what set up this sad scenario.  

      The power of willful ignorance cannot be overstated. (Marketing dictum)

      by NWGuy on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 09:46:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  NWGuy - I see you still don't support the diary (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Smoh

        Again if you don't want to click the rec button that is your right, but I'd still like to get a simple answer from you if I could please. Would you please explain to us why for example there isn't a problem with the German police killing kids with their toy guns. Why isn't this is a problem in England where the police also don't kill kids with their toy guns. In Japan there isn't a problem with the police killing kids with their toy guns, why is that? What is the reason? Concurrently why is this a problem in America, what is the reason? Can you explain that to our readers.

        Because the point my diary tries to make is that the reason is an out of control militarized police which we are all trained to worship and that the only way to fix this problem for real isn't with the toy store, but for the voters at the ballot box as the owners of the country to reassert control and take responsibility in the way that other highly industrialized countries have taken control at the ballot box and they have community policing that works and that doesn't kill kids carrying toy guns. Now you don't agree with that that is evident as you won't rec or support the diary. I accept that, again that is your right. But please to reiterate answer the question, so my readers can understand your position. Why isn't this a problem in other industrialized countries like German, England, Japan etc.... Where the police don't on an ongoing basis kill kids who have toy guns. Why do we have this problem as Americans and they don't, what is the reason? Please tell us your view.

        You ran into a hardcore progressive whos just another working stiff with an MBA degree & vociferous labor union supporter

        by Democrats Ramshield on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 09:56:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Again, how many mass shootings are there in (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lordcopper

          the EU.  Do people have as many guns as we do?  How many people were killed by hand guns.  The culture is totally different in the EU.  I'm not disagreeing that the cops aren't militarized and gleefully so. Nor am I being an apologist for cops.  But the issue runs much deeper than the cops.  It's the cops, the gun culture of America, the crime rate we have and this cowboy mentality we have.  

          "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubt." Bertrand Russell I'm very certain that is true. 10−122

          by thestructureguy on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 10:19:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Who cares if the gun looks realistic? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Smoh, side pocket, maregug

        You cannot believe that the kid was walking with the gun to his shoulder.  When the kid turned the gun was not in a firing position.  How did the deputy think Andy was going to fire this rifle, by remote control?

        If Andy had brought the rifle up to his shoulder prior to turning then I could see the deputy feeling fearful.  Other than that this was just a situation the deputy was waiting for based on his prior statements.

  •  the police represent about as big (16+ / 0-)

    a danger to kids, old people in nursing homes, people driving in suspicious vehicles possibly used in a crime,  people in their front yards, you know, everybody, these days as the criminals.

    If the only solution they can see to confronting members of the public is shoot first and ask questions later, maybe they shouldn't be officers.  And if their police departments know this is what the officer advocateds and doesn't discipline and retrain him and fire him if necessary, they need to pay.  

    •  It's becoming increasingly apparent (4+ / 0-)
      If the only solution they can see to confronting members of the public is shoot first and ask questions later, maybe they shouldn't be officers
      that that's precisely why they're officers.

      Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

      by corvo on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 06:31:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  shoot first and ask questions later (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        YsosadisticGOP

        was in the past kind of a sarcastic statement.  Again, conservative thought laps irony,  they take it literally.

        Just because the police are going the wrong way doesn't mean they're right.

        •  No, actually, I meant not only that (5+ / 0-)

          the practice of "shoot first, ask questions later" is not only attracting certain types to police work, but that the practice is being increasingly inculcated into departments and recruits, as the police become increasingly militarized.

          Not for nothing that Blackwater/Xe/Academi is now making a killing training police forces.

          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

          by corvo on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 07:34:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I think (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ColoTim, lordcopper
    In another online post, Gelhaus described his tenure as a deputy as a time of "the good, bad, terrible & indifferent," and advised one person asking for career advice to consider the potential of having to face the "very rare" situation of "having to take a life so that you survive and go home to yours."

    Gelhaus wrote.
     THE TIME TO MAKE THAT DECISION IS NOW, NOT AT 1A.M. IN A MUDDY DITCH OR GARBAGE-FILLED PARKING LOT,"

    I think you are misinterpreting the quote.  If you wait until the moment, you will probably freeze precisely because it is such a huge decision.  And then it will be too late.  I don't think this implies premeditation in this particular case.  If you can't make that decision, then you probably shouldn't be in that line of work.

    It is a fine line though.  If you dwell too much on the decision, you might start to interpret every situation as an opportunity to act on the decision.

    The only really disturbing part is the witness account of the cop shooting the boy when we was on the ground.  But it seems like the medical examiner would have been able to determine if someone was shot lying down.  

    I'm not sure what I am supposed to be seeing on the youtube video.

  •  I comes down to police culture, training, and (12+ / 0-)

    screening officer candidates.

    First there is the police culture. It is us versus them with the citizens as the them. Every citizen is a criminal waiting to happen, or an uncaught one. Police are taught to lie to the public. Police are not subject to the laws they are sent out to uphold. There is a drift from a a police force mentality to a paramilitary force mentality. They are unable to even police themselves.

    Training is at best, flawed. There is no practical working knowledge of the law, or that knowledge exists and is ignored. Procedure in and of itself is flawed and no one is willing to say so, let alone challenge the establishment. The police cannot, or worse will not change. It makes their own criminal enterprises more difficult to run.

    The selection process is no longer for the best and brightest, but for those who can be relied upon to follow orders. They want people who will bend the knee to the organization they serve. This is a critical requirement as it makes it far easier to indoctrinate the candidates into the culture. Psychopaths and sociopaths have infilitrated to the police and now in some cases run police departments.

    Problems? Yeah I'd say there are a few. They are all fixable. It merely requires the will to act by the electorate, and the enforcing that will.

    Give blood. Play hockey.

    by flycaster on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 06:36:10 AM PDT

    •  We take our impressionable ... (0+ / 0-)

      young men and women and send them off to boot camp to "re-educate" them in the Art of War. Our government teaches them to hate and to kill the enemy. The enemy is not of the recruits choosing, but of the government's. The enemy is faceless, without a name, without value. The government calls the shots, soldiers follow orders, all in the name of state defined patriotism and freedom. We send the fresh recruits off to foreign lands to kill or be killed, further cementing the psychological transformation into a permanent state of being. Then, when their Tour of Duty is completed, we release them back into our society. Many join police forces around the country and bring every bit of their militarized mental state of being with them to the next battlefield, the streets of America. Again, patriotism and freedom are defined for them. Now it's called Serve and Protect. The enemy is defined for them. Pulling the trigger is instinctive now. Making the kill is what they have been trained to do. They followed our orders. They pull the trigger, because we can't find the thoughts to do it ourselves. Yes, this is what we do to our impressionable young men and women...Kill or be Killed.


      The Church of glb3, Inc., your sins are my salvation.

      by glb3 on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 10:19:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Welcome to America (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Damnit Janet, MHB, jan4insight, Smoh

    The richest Banana Republic in the world.

    I'll believe corporations are people when one comes home from Afghanistan in a body bag.

    by mojo11 on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 06:48:03 AM PDT

  •  Glad I moved my children out of the USA. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ExpatGirl, Amber6541, Smoh

    Here in ASEAN, a few years ago, my son took a plastic dart gun to school. I found it in the parking lot and kept it in the car. Had one of the teachers caught him with it, they would have treated it as any other harmless toy and confiscated it until the end of the school day. This is the kind of sanity the USA should reestablish. But, you won't..... Hence, I remain a refugee from the asylum formerly known as the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.

    I voted with my feet. Good Bye and Good Luck America!!

    by shann on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 06:51:52 AM PDT

  •  It's not clear to me at all that the weapon on ... (7+ / 0-)

    It's not clear to me at all that the weapon on the left weighs significantly less than that on the right. Approaching from a distance it would be in redo oh difficult to distinguish one weapon from another.

    I think the overall case presented in this diary is mostly an attempt at mind reading. Some people have more aggressive attitudes and that causes different levels of discretion in the moment a shot is fired, not that the involved party arrived with intent to fire.

    Where there is worry is the amount of time elapsed between arrival and guns fired. 10 seconds is an extraordinarily brief period to issue warning.

    I think we talk about open carry all the time here on daily Kos and how that will one day lead to a shoot out. I see this as a form of what that might mean. Carrying weapons, even fake but somewhat realistic looking ones, is going to cause a shoot out one day.

  •  Contrast this to Cliven Bundy's group. (7+ / 0-)

    No one got shot out in Nevada. The actual threat of force turned around the buses in Murrieta. Killing is okay as long as one is a patriot and has pure thoughts.

    Inside every old person is a child wondering what the hell happened.

    by CA148 NEWS on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 07:00:49 AM PDT

  •  now, y'see... (6+ / 0-)

    ... this is exactly why those idiots carrying assualt rifles into Targets and Chillis, etc., are so frickin' stupid.

    I can kind of understand the cop here.  I don't think he should have started shooting unless he really felt threatened, and I'm not convinced the kid did anything that'd justify his overzealous action.  I don't think the cop could've necessarily known, in the heat of the situation, that that was a BB gun.  It's easy to look at it after the fact and look for things, weight, etc. that would give it away, but if you're not expecting it to be a BB gun, and were instead thinking it may be something that could potentially kill you in seconds, you probably wouldn't notice those things that are easy to spot when you're far removed from the situation.  So I won't say the cop is a monster, although I'll say he was overzealous and very poor judgement, and his use of force was excessive.  The kid definitely isn't a monster, either, and was doing nothing wrong... it's just a sad, tragic situation.

    But, if people like these open-carry extremists are going to tote ordinance - real .223 caliber ordinance - around in the street, what are cops supposed to do?  They're trying to keep themselves and the public safe... how do they know who's a "good guy" with a gun "expressing his freedom" in an idiotic way, and who's a lunatic on a shooting spree?   It's hard enough to tell when it's just a BB gun involved... how are they ever supposed to judge a situation involving the real thing?   The open-carry extremists are making a dangerous environment for all involved.  It should not become a "normalized" thing to see people carrying military weapons in a peaceful environment.

    "Glenn Beck ends up looking like a fat, stupid child. His face should be wearing a chef's hat on the side of a box of eclairs. " - Doug Stanhope

    by Front Toward Enemy on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 07:20:05 AM PDT

    •  How do you fire a rifle? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      YsosadisticGOP, maregug

      All the ones I have had you bring them to your shoulder, you aim, and then you fire.

      It doesn't matter if it is the real thing or a BB gun.

      A deputy, with military experience, should be well aware of this which makes it implausible to think he felt in fear during this incident.

      •  you point it (0+ / 0-)

        It doesn't have to be brought to the shoulder or aimed, especially if it's an automatic weapon.  You can just point it in the general direction of what you're shooting at and spray.  They can be brought to bear in no time at all.

        That said, I do think the cop was overzealous and acted far too hastily.  Shooting a person is not something you do as casually as he's done it.  And I've been in a position where I thought I might have to shoot someone before, so I know how that goes.  Luckily I didn't have to do it, and I don't think I'd've have done it if I were him... especially since he's got a lot more training than I have.  

        "Glenn Beck ends up looking like a fat, stupid child. His face should be wearing a chef's hat on the side of a box of eclairs. " - Doug Stanhope

        by Front Toward Enemy on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 11:22:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It's implausible to think that he actually was (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jorogo

        in danger.  Feeling fear?  Who knows?  He may well have come back from Iraq with a hair-trigger fear/aggression response when someone turns toward him with a gun, to the shoulder or not, aimed or not.

        Or maybe he didn't.

        We can't read his mind.

        To my mind, these recent laws that justify violence if you "feel fear" rather than requiring that you be in a situation a reasonable person can recognize as actually threatening harm -- these laws are just pure trouble.

        --------------------- “These are troubling times. Corporation are treated like people. People are treated like things. …And if we ever needed to vote, we sure do need to vote now.” -- Rev. Dr. William J. Barber

        by Fiona West on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 11:56:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Business as usual (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eyo, ChuckChuckerson, YsosadisticGOP

    I guess the kid wasn't white enough for the prosecutor to consider filing a case.

  •  public pronouncements (7+ / 0-)

    There seems to be a pattern with these people who make public pronouncements about how you can shoot someone and get away with it.

    They tend to shoot someone when they think that they can get away with it.

    This reminds me of George Zimmerman, or the home owner in Minnesota who lured some teens into his house to assassinate them for attempted burglery. They have a sense of power combined with a dehuminisation of their victim.

    The deputy's previous comment about how you can kill someone in possesion of a BB gun if you know how to present yourself to a judge is especially chilling.

  •  Let's get Deputy Gelhaus for the next Open Carry (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Trotskyrepublican

    event.

    Ought to be a blast.

    Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
    I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
    —Spike Milligan

    by polecat on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 07:35:49 AM PDT

  •  We have a police problem in Sonoma County (8+ / 0-)

    This is not an isolated incident.  We are a small county with too many police involved shootings resulting in innocent people being killed.  They are trigger happy and militarized.  No cop has ever been prosecuted in Sonoma County for wrongfully killing a citizen in a police involved shooting.  We routinely see SWAT teams in our small county.  Not long ago, we had a Waco type situation during which the cops fired tear gas cannisters into a home that caught on fire.  The perp ran out of the burining home, put a gun to his head and killed himself.  Completely unnecessary blood letting.  They could have starved him out of the house.  No need to burn it down.

    This Lopez case should have gone to the grand jury.  Jill Ravitch, the D.A., withheld her decision not to prosecute until after her re-election last month.   Everyone knew what she would do, but she was too much of a coward to let the voters decide if they approve or not.

    I hope that the Lopez family wins a huge verdict in it's civil suit against our militarized county.

    •  With you there. (0+ / 0-)

      Even though I live in Sonoma county I hope the award bankrupts us so notice is taken.

      Ceiling Cat rules....srsly.

      by side pocket on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 12:57:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What do you think (0+ / 0-)

      has driven the bad shooting record and over militarization in this specific county?

      From a short distance Sonoma seems to be a relatively wealthy and peaceful exurb of San Francisco.

      Does Sonoma have problems with wild west pot growers? I thought they were the next county or two north and I've not heard that they're problematically violent?

      Is there any major problem with gangs in poor neighborhoods (are there many poor neighborhoods to begin with?)?

      What's the problem?

      •  Homeland security money and racism (0+ / 0-)

        By reading the local papers one would think that there's a gang problem but not really relative to other counties with similar demographics.  The county is lenient about growing pot so that is not the problem.  The hippies are not the problem and there's not much hippie punching going on.  But, there are enclaves of poverty and that happens to be where the majority of latino residents live.  The county has been talking about incorporating the poorer hispanic enclave into the Santa Rosa city limits, but it's just been talk year after year.

        I think that the main problem is that there is no civilian review board for police involved shootings.  It's left to the D.A. who is politically connected to the county Sheriff.  Law enforcement gets too much money from Homeland Security relative to population and levels of violent crime.  They buy their military "toys" which inevitably gets used.  Cops don't deal well with citizens in distress and have a horrible record dealing with the mentally ill.  Former military are hired as law enforcement officers and they treat the populace like they are an occupying force.  The Sheriff's department does a lousy job of screening job applicants.  That boils down to lack of training and oversight.

  •  BB Gun (8+ / 0-)

    For the life of me I can't even begin to understand the mind of someone who would manufacture a BB Gun that looks like an AK 47, let alone a parent who would buy such a monstrous thing.  There is no sanity in any of this!

  •  Certainty (0+ / 0-)

    It's very hard to be sure enough to prosecute an officer.  It doesn't take that kind of certainty to do something to the organization the officer works for.  In this case, the proper action is to fire the chain of command and take the department into receivership.  Then, after an outside receiver establishes proper training and leadership, control can be given back to local government.  That, and a couple of million in financial compensation. Local taxpayers, not state or national, should pay the costs.

    Mandatory Gun Insurance would provide for victims, encourage safety and not be an excessive burden on gun owners. How to do it at Gun Insurance Blog. I also make posts at Huffington as Tom Harvey.

    by guninsuranceblog on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 08:42:06 AM PDT

  •  To prosecute an officer (6+ / 0-)

    should be very easy. They have great training, best in the world, right? They behave in accordance with the law to the highest standards. Isn't that what they always claim? And they work for us.

    What part about "Equal justice for all" does the American legal system not understand?

    A true craftsman will meticulously construct the apparatus of his own demise.

    by onionjim on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 08:52:43 AM PDT

    •  This is the "training" he was looking for (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      onionjim, side pocket

      according to this.

      The two decided to spend the afternoon in the Moorland neighborhood, an area that the district attorney's office called one of the most active crime areas in the county - a good location for gaining police experience.

      Gelhaus, 49, wanted to "give his trainee an opportunity to be more proactive," according to the report.

      Andy's deadly "crime" was a buzz and a bottle of eye drops according to the smears.
      The report notes that Andy had likely smoked marijuana that afternoon. Trace amounts of the drug were found in his blood during an autopsy, and investigators say a marijuana cigarette and Visine eye drops were in his possession.
      Apropos of nothing.
  •  A friend of mine pointed out something about this (4+ / 0-)

    It was during our childhoods (the late eighties,  early nineties) that toy guns went from being somewhat realistic looking to being brightly colored; we both remember it happening.  I remember getting a battery-powered water gun for Christmas that looked exactly like a real uzi, and the next year my cousin got the exact same water gun but it was neon green.

    It was like something shifted culturally that made it suddenly OK for cops to shoot children for having realistic toy guns; previously it seemed that society expected the police to be able to assess whether someone was an actual threat before shooting. I never thought about it that way; we preemptively started letting cops off the hook for this nonsense decades ago. It's time we stopped.

    •  We didn't use to have school shootings or (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jorogo

      criminals having access to better weapons than cops.  Use to be cops didn't have to assume everyone they encountered is a threat.  Or school children wouldn't be shot with semi automatic weapons. Yes, I'd say there was a culture change.  

      "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubt." Bertrand Russell I'm very certain that is true. 10−122

      by thestructureguy on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 01:06:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Was there a epidemic of 13y.o. kids shooting cops? (0+ / 0-)

        I don't remember if there was. As far as I understand, violent crime in general has been declining for decades.

        Also, while I do think that assault rifles should be banned completely, the AR-15 rifle has been sold to the general public for 40+ years now. AK-47s have been on the market for a similar amount of time. Before 1986 you could even legally buy a fully automatic rifle.

         The hardware hasn't changed at all; we did. We became more tolerant of abuse by police, up to the point that many of us just accept that police will shoot first and assess the threat later even when dealing with children.

    •  I think there were some (0+ / 0-)

      laws that kicked in which required toy guns to have obvious visual differences from real guns. In particular there were requirements to have red plugs at the end of the barrel of the toy. Of course I would imagine that some kids just spray paint the red thingy to make the toy look more real if their parents aren't watching...

      However this was a BB gun so it would probably be exempt from such restrictions.

  •  Not an easy call (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lordcopper, thestructureguy, jorogo

    I don't think you can tell whether that gun is real or not from even close range.  I don't know what movements the kid did or didn't make.  I don't envy an officer faced with making a quick decision on that one.  There may well have been a far-better protocol the officer could have used.  It is quite possible that he should not have fired so quickly.

    There seem to be many things to blame here, and I don't claim to know the order of their importance.  

    The reason you don't see police shooting as much in countries like Britain, Germany, and Japan is that those countries simply don't have the gun violence that we have.  It is far less likely that an officer will encounter someone with intent to kill in those countries.  If I am not correct statistically about that, then I will happily admit I am wrong.  Really and truly, I am not emotionally connected to that notion, and if it is not objectively correct, I will abandon it.

    I am a bit put off, to be honest, by the diarist saying to commenters that if they don't recommend the diary, then they don't support the cause or that they implicitly approve of overmilitarizing the police or whatever.  Where does THAT come from?    

  •  Please stop talking about the BB gun. (6+ / 0-)

    Because the real issue here is the militarization of the police.

    Everything you're saying about "The gun was too light" or "The barrel was too short" is wrong.

    Because there are nearly hundreds of variants of the AK47. Some of them, like the AIMR, are designed to be concealed weapons. The AIMR and the AKS-74U are routinely used in eastern europe as weapons of assassination. Lots of journalists have been killed with these things. A hit squad will walk by a car concealing these things under their coats, whip them out, and put about a hundred rifle rounds through the vehicle in seconds. They'll then drop the weapons and run. Warlords have been assassinated using short-barreled AK variants fired at point blank range.

    Light, concealable AK-47 variants exist, short barreled variants exist, variants with all kinds of stocks, and then all kinds of zombie models where Americans have bought random parts from all of these guns and patched them together into Frankenstein carbines.

    Don't even talk about the damned BB gun, because the right wing has more than enough ammo to muddy the waters just using that point. If we talk about the BB gun, they'll just distract everyone by asking stupid questions about whether or not they could tell that this was a toy gun. Don't let them.

    The BB Gun is completely irrelevant. It's not the issue here.

    The issue is that this officer decided to gun down this child before he even got out of his patrol car.

    THAT is what we need to be talking about.

    That is the point we need to make here. Because that's the issue.

    An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail.

    by OllieGarkey on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 09:56:24 AM PDT

  •  If Gelhaus was in such fear for his life, (4+ / 0-)

    does he belong on the street?  If he is beyond prosecution, can the department at least admit the officer is a coward and incapable of responsibly handling his weapon and bury him in a basement filing papers?  God forbid an "Open Carry" group come to town while Gelhaus is on patrol.

    Just remember - It's a world full of amateurs out there. -4.75, -5.33

    by Bandaloop on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 10:17:27 AM PDT

  •  I heard a new book's out. (0+ / 0-)

    "How to kill kids for fun and profit", by Zimmerman and Gelhaus. "Because we only live once. Get the best advice for slaughtering teens in the hood, by the two most notorious practitioners. Join the online chat to get the latest tips."

    snrk.

    A true craftsman will meticulously construct the apparatus of his own demise.

    by onionjim on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 10:26:37 AM PDT

  •  The clip in the diary shows the interior of (0+ / 0-)

    someone's car. All I can clearly for sure is that they subscribe to Netflix. Is there another clip?

    "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

    by Lily O Lady on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 12:20:51 PM PDT

  •  Thanks for this diary. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Democrats Ramshield, jayden, eyo

    I live very close and attended the demonstrations. Here's the thing. In this whole area the chance that someone would be strolling down the street carrying a weapon is virtually nil. (Of course around here the police have considered a screwdriver and a broomstick weapons and killed their possessors).  And Andy was shot before he had turned completely around. A number of reports shoe at least one bullet hit his butt. I'm still sick about the whole thing but I had no doubt the creep deputy would not be charged.

    Ceiling Cat rules....srsly.

    by side pocket on Wed Jul 09, 2014 at 01:08:34 PM PDT

  •  Different mentality (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Democrats Ramshield

    We make  'toy' guns that look like assault weapons.  Kids want to play with them and parents buy them.

    We live in a culture where fear rules. Our adrenaline soars while we are on the highway or watching the news. We are constantly in the fight or flight mode. We need to shift our way of thinking or we are going to self destruct. The German people learned that the hard way-but it sounds like they learned.

  •  So a kid carrying a FAKE automatic weapon (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eyo

    is shot, but the guys in, say Target, carrying around real ones...NOT shot...?

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