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Monday July 27, 1914
Chicago, Illinois - Agnes Nestor's Testimony before the Walsh Commission, Part I
, also known as the Walsh Commission. Miss Nestor is the president of the Chicago branch of the Women's Trade Union League, as well as the president of the International Glove Workers' Union. We will present her testimony in its entirety today and tomorrow. On Tuesday, we will publish the testimony of Miss Elizabeth Malony, financial secretary and business agent of the Chicago Waitresses Union.
TESTIMONY OF MISS AGNES NESTOR.
Mr. Thompson. Miss Nestor, will you give us your name?
Miss Nestor. Agnes Nestor.
Mr. Thompson. What is your business address?
Miss Nestor. 166 West Washington Street.
Mr. Thompson. And your present position?
Miss Nestor. I am president of the Women's Trade Union league of Chicago, and I am
also president of the International Glove Workers' Union.
Mr. Thompson. How long have you been president of the International Glove Workers'
Union?
Miss Nestor. Less than a year.
Mr. Thompson. Less than a year. How long have you been
Commissioner Lennon (interrupting). I can't hear, and I am near by.
Miss Nestor. Less than one year.
Commissioner Lennon. Thank you.
Mr. Thompson. The audience, too. Miss Nestor, wants to hear.
Miss Nestor. Yes.
Mr. Thompson. Both of us, they say.
Miss Nestor. I shall try to.
Mr. Thompson. How long have you been connected in an official way with the glove
makers' union?
Miss Nestor. I have — almost since we have been organized, which is 12 years.
Mr. Thompson. Twelve years?
Miss Nestor. I have been. Prior to the time that I was elected president of the
international I was secretary-treasurer of the international and I served in that
capacity for seven years. Before that I was a local officer.
Mr. Thompson. Is that an organization principally of women workers?
Miss Nestor. Men and women.
Mr. Thompson. Men and women?
Miss Nestor. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thompson. What proportion, about?
Miss Nestor. Well, there is a little more than one-half of the organization that is men
and the remainder women.
Mr. Thompson. What is the purpose of the Women's Trade Union League?
Miss Nestor. The purpose of the Women's Trade Union League is to organize women
into trade-unions and also to cooperate with everybody in every way we can to try to
make conditions a little better.
Mr. Thompson. Has your organization any affiliation with the American Federation of
Labor?
Miss Nestor. We are not affiliated with the American Federation of Labor. We are
affiliated with the Chicago Federation of Labor, and also with the State federation.
Mr. Thompson. And the relations between your organization and the American
Federation of Labor are friendly or unfriendly—which?
Miss Nestor. Very friendly.
Mr. Thompson. Do you generally have a delegate at their convention?
Miss Nestor. Fraternal delegate. According to their constitution that is all we can have.
Mr. Thompson. Has the Women's Trade Union League got a constitution and by-laws?
Miss Nestor. Yes, sir; we have.
Mr. Thompson. Have you that with you?
Miss Nestor. I have a copy of our annual report. I do not believe the constitution and
by-laws are in this, but I will be glad to file one with the commission. I will file this
report also. (The papers so presented were marked "Exhibit No. 1, Witness Nestor,
July 24, 1914," "Exhibit No. 2," "Exhibit No. 3," "Exhibit No. 4," "Exhibit No. 5," and
"Exhibit No. 6." Nestor Exhibit No. 1, pamphlet entitled "Women's Trade League of
Chicago," biennial report, 1911-1913; Nestor Exhibit No. 2, clipping from the press,
June 23, 1913, announcing 6 o'clock closing hour for certain stores; Nestor Exhibit No.
3, circular entitled "Women's Trade Union League's statement of the Facts Concerning
Henrici's, on Randolph Street"; Nestor Exhibit No. 4, folder entitled "Women's Trade
Union League of Chicago—Platform"; Nestor Exhibit No. 5, list of workers in various
occupations; and Nestor Exhibit No. 6, circular entitled "How the Hours in the Retail
Stores can be Regulated Under a Fifty-four-hour Week Law," were all submitted in
printed form.)
Mr. Thompson. What have been the activities of the Women's Trade Union League
while you have been connected with it as president and otherwise, if you can speak
later?
Miss Nestor. Well, our activities have been to try and organize women into trades-
unions. We have worked to secure protective legislation for the women workers. We
work with the trades-unions in various ways to strengthen some of the unions that
perhaps needed our assistance and advice, and also we have several branches of our
work. We have what we call our health-committee work, law enforcement. We work
to—we had a committee that did a great deal in bringing about the creation of the
fire-prevention bureau that exists in Chicago now. We have been working to help the
enforcement of these laws.
Mr. Thompson. Just a little louder, please.
Miss Nestor. We—through our efforts largely the fire-prevention bureau in Chicago was
organized, and since the creation of that we have been trying to work with that
bureau to bring about better enforcement of the law. It is a new bureau and they
have not any adequate funds to have the number of inspectors they ought to have.
And we have a committee to find out the condition in the factories, find out any way
of violations, of laws being violated, so that we can report to the bureau. But our
main work, of course, is the organization of women—our general work.
Mr. Thompson. Has your organization taken any part in the enactment of State
legislation through what you have mentioned, for instance, the 10-hour law for
women?
Miss Nestor. We work and try to
Mr. Thompson. Did you take part in the work?
Miss Nestor. It was through the efforts of our organization, I believe, almost entirely
that the law was placed on the statute books. Our organization, with the waitresses'
union, I mean. We worked the first session to secure the passage of that law. It was
a very limited law; it only applied to what are considered the laborious trades. At the
next session we worked to extend it to all the other occupations and were successful.
At the last session we tried to reduce the hours. We had the 10-hour day, which is 70
hours a week, and we tried to reduce the hours to 54, but were defeated in our
efforts. We tried to secure the passage of the minimum-wage law, but we were
defeated in our efforts in that. The attitude of the employers in regard to that
legislation was, at the last session, that they did not care what it was, they were
opposing progress in social legislation; that is what they call that—social legislation.
They said they were fighting any progress.
Mr. Thompson. Who said that?
Miss Nestor. Mr. Glenn was the one that made the statement before the House
Committee on Labor. When the matter was before that committee there were several
questions asked with regard to whether they could not conform to it in these different
establishments, and he said what they were opposing was progress in this legislation,
and it was not so much a question of
Chairman Walsh. It was not so much a question of what?
Miss Nestor. Of the particular provisions of the bill. They were opposing progress. He
said they did not consider it health legislation; they considered it social legislation and
they were fighting progress in social legislation. When the matter of the minimum-
wage bill was before the committee Mr. Taylor was asked whether he was opposed to
the wage or whether opposed to a flat rate, and he said they were opposed to all
that legislation, giving the impression to the Senate committee they were opposed to
anything in the line of minimum-wage legislation. It was a very broad bill.
Mr. Thompson. Did you hear Mr. Glenn make that statement?
Miss Nestor. I was in the committee that meeting; yes.
Mr. Thompson. Were those remarks taken down stenographlcally, if you know?
Miss Nestor. I do not believe they were. I do not believe the committees were
accustomed, unless especially asked, to take stenographic records. But it was a full
committee meeting and there were several other persons there who heard it.
Mr. Thompson. What part does your organization take in a strike where women workers
may be involved?
Miss Nestor. In any strike in which women workers are involved, if the organization
desires our assistance, they have to pass a motion in their meeting that they need
our assistance and that is referred to our organization at a meeting of our executive
board, which is called particularly for that purpose—if it is not a regular meeting—and
we consider it and then vote whether we will give the support.
Mr. Thompson. You may tell, if you will, what are the conditions of membership and
who compose the membership of your organization.
Miss Nestor. The Women's Trade Union League?
Mr. Thompson. Yes.
Miss Nestor. The condition of membership is that we ask that some one, of course,
vouch for them, some one that we know, and that they subscribe to our platform,
which is the organization of women's trades-unions, the eight- hour day, the living
wage, equal pay for equal work, and true citizenship for women. That is the platform,
the planks in the platform of our organization. We have in our membership trades-
unionists; we have workers who are engaged in trades where there is no organization;
and we have men and women who are interested in subscribing to our platform, so
that it is made up of the various kinds of people.
Mr. Thompson. Now, referring to the industrial problems, Miss Nestor, in your position
as an active leader in the labor movement, have you studied the conditions of the
workers generally, more or less, or given attention to it?
Miss Nestor. I have had an opportunity to observe it more or less.
Mr. Thompson. Do you believe that there is unrest among the workers?
Miss Nestor. Yes; I do.
Mr. Thompson. As such?
Miss Nestor. Yes ; I do.
Mr. Thompson. What, in your opinion, is the cause and what remedy could you
suggest, or would you suggest, within the scope of the authority of this commission?
Miss Nestor. Well, I believe the main cause is where the workers have nothing to say in
regard to the conditions under which they have to work, the wages they are working
for, and the hours of labor. Whether it is in Government, or no matter where it is,
where the people have not got a right to voice their demands, I think you will find
dissatisfaction. I think you will find an unrest there. And what we want to bring about
is—what we feel is the thing that will bring about doing away with this unrest in the
workshop and elsewhere, is to let the people have something to say about the
conditions under which they are going to work, which, of course, really means working
under trade agreements.
Mr. Thompson. Under collective bargaining?
Miss Nestor. Under collective bargaining.
Mr. Thompson. In your opinion does that necessitate the organization of the workers
into unions of some form or another?
Miss Nestor. It does. I do not believe that you can reach this problem as it should be
reached without the organization of the workers. They are the ones, and they are the
only ones, who can solve their own problems. No one else can solve your problem.
You have got to meet with your employer. You are the only one who knows the
conditions in the shop. I believe more in conciliation than I do in arbitration. I believe,
of course, in resorting to arbitration; but I think by the people involved, the workers
and the employers getting together, that they will be more likely to adjust the
conditions to the satisfaction of both than they will by having an outsider come in. I
know—I can cite from my own experience—in my trade we have had agreements with
a number of the glove manufacturers in Chicago for the last 12 years. During that time
all of our agreements have provided for arbitration in any disputes rather than
resorting to a strike during the term of an agreement; and in no instance during that
time, which is quite a long time, have we resorted to arbitration. We have always
gotten together as both sides, and always said we knew more about it than an
outsider; we don't have to have them come in and tell us where we are wrong.
Mr. Thompson. What would you say, Miss Nestor, with reference to the organization of
unions, so that democracy might prevail in that, too?
Miss Nestor. Well, I believe that we ought to have—I think the ideal organization is
where democracy is, where democracy does exist. I think that in order to have the
people satisfied, entirely satisfied, even in an organization, you have got to have
democracy. They have got to have a voice in all the affairs of that organization. I
think that
Mr. Thompson. Do you believe that industrial trouble has come in some instances
because of the fact that the workers themselves, members of the union, did not have
an adequate voice in that management?
Miss Nestor. Well, I do not know of any. In some instances—I think most organizations,
the unions—I am talking of the rank and file, they do that, determine the questions
that affect our interests. For instance, in the matter of the strikes, a strike is not
called unless the members individually have a vote on it, and that vote is always
trying to safeguard the ballot, so that we can get a true expression. In the same
way, I know when we are making agreements, we will not sign an agreement, no
matter what little change is made in the original agreement, with the person that has
been named by the organization, until it has been ratified by the organization. They
are the ones that are going to determine whether it is something they can go back to
work under, or whether they want that kind of an agreement. I think that most of the
organizations have absolute democracy. Of course, there are exceptions, like in
everything else.
Mr. Thompson. Well, have you known of any cases where single men have the power
of calling strikes?
Miss Nestor. Well, I have heard of cases.
Mr. Thompson. You have heard it.
Miss Nestor, But I don't know.
Mr. Thompson. You have heard of it?
Miss Nestor. Yes.
Mr. Thompson. What effect do you think that would have on the organization itself?
Miss Nestor. Well, it may not have any particular effect, and it may. As an officer, I
would not want to have that power intrusted to me. I would not want to take that
responsibility.
Mr. Thompson. You think it would be a good thing for the organization?
Miss Nestor. I think the more of that power that we invest in the rank and file the
safer it is for everybody.
Mr. Thompson. You think, then, it is a great power to place in one man's hands?
Miss Nestor. Well, I think it is too much of a power; I would not want it.
Mr. Thompson. In what industries
Miss Nestor. At my own beck and call.
Mr. Thompson. In what industries around Chicago that you are familiar with are the
conditions of the women workers good, and in what other industries are they bad, and
what are the reasons, if you can tell them?
Miss Nestor. Well, for instance, I think the straw and felt hat workers have very good
prices, and the bindery and the shoe workers and the suspender workers; I think in all
we have about 22 trades in which the women are organized, and in all those trades
there are fairly good conditions, and, of course, conditions are improving all the time.
Some of them have not been organized very great lengths of time, but comparing
them with the unorganized trades I think there is considerable difference. You take a
trade, particularly a factory, and other trades where there has never been an
organization, and you will find the wages are very low, and you will find there a
younger and new group always coming in. There will be one group work perhaps a
considerable length of time and then they will become disgusted with the conditions
and go out and a new group comes in all the time. I think where we have got the
better conditions as we have in the organized shops, you are more likely to keep your
good, experienced workers, at least while they are in the trade. There is not the
shifting and changing all the time as in the other trades.
Mr. Thompson. What opinion have you with reference to a Government regulation,
either State or National, of the employment of women?
Miss Nestor. Well, I think there is certain legislation we ought to have. Of course, we
feel very strongly about the limitation of hours. I think we ought to have an eight-
hour day, and I believe in the minimum-wage bill. We fought for that in the last
session of the legislature. Those are the two particular things, the laws we are
working for at the present time. Of course, there are a great many improvements that
can be brought about, but even when you have legislation you have to have an
organization so that you can get those properly enforced. Why, we found, and I think
there are a great many organizations through their investigations this year found, the
girls, even though they wouldn't perhaps have the courage to come out and say that
the employer violated the law, but that meant dismissal and perhaps self-blacklisting.
We have had girls in the city here in certain trades that have been dismissed simply
because they went in and testified to working overtime, or what ever the violation
was of the law.
Mr. Thompson. Referring for the moment to the question of the condition of organized
and unorganized trades, have you any data or statistics you can offer with reference
to the conditions and wages in each of these?
Miss Nestor. I think I can furnish you with some—furnish the commission.
Mr. Thompson. Will you furnish the commission with such data as you have in that
respect?
Miss Nestor. Yes; as much as we can possibly get. There are certain trades, the box
industry and the candy industry; all of us know the wages there are very low.
Wherever piecework exists and no organizations, it means the wages are always going
down, because the system itself brings about that condition in price. (The witness
subsequently submitted a pamphlet entitled "Clerks! Do you want the Saturday half
holiday?" etc.; a handbill reading "There are 125,000 working women in Chicago," etc.;
a pamphlet entitled "Training School for Women Organizers of the National Women's
Trade Union League of America, Preliminary Report, 1914;" and two booklets, which
were, respectively, the programs of the conventions of the National Women's Trade
Union League at Chicago, September 27-October 2, 1909, and at Boston, June 12-17,
1911; all of which were in printed form.)
Mr. Thompson. Have you ever considered the question of a union among domestic
employees?
Miss Nestor. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thompson. What are your opinions about it?
Miss Nestor. Why, I think they ought to have one. I think, that their hours ought to be
standardized. I think that work ought to be standardized, just like any other work is
standardized. We know that they work irregular, long hours. We know that they have
all sorts of conditions to contend with that they hadn't ought to, and they will never
be able to do anything unless they have, and until they have an organization.
Mr. Thompson. Have you ever attempted to develop an organization in that?
Miss Nestor. Yes; we have. We have got one under way. Mr. Chairman, I would like to
say in the matter of legislation, just so that your commission will know that no matter
what we attempt to do to change and improve conditions, we meet opposition. Now,
it is not only when we attempt to legislate about it that there is opposition. When we
try to organize we always meet with opposition, or at least, we always have. And
then when we try to get those things, reduction in hours, minimum-wage scale, or
whatever it is, by legislation, we met the same opposition.
Commissioner O'Connell. What is that opposition? Just give us that.
Miss Nestor. They are the employers' association.
Commissioner O'Connell. Now, to develop a little, who are they?
Miss Nestor. Well, in Chicago, for instance, we have the retail merchants' association.
We tried last year to organize the clerks into a trade-union. We found opposition
there. We tried to get legislation which would reduce the hours in the stores,
especially in the outlying districts, and the merchants came down in big numbers
opposing our bill. They said that sort of legislation would put them out of business;
they could not compete with the down-town stores, and all of that. They were
successful in defeating it. After it was defeated we said, "All right, if we can't get it
by legislation, we will get it by organization." We began calling meetings, and had
some very successful meetings, and as soon as the merchants out there found out
our meetings were well attended and it looked as if through organization we would get
these things, they on their own part closed the stores one evening a week, which
was admitting the very thing that they denied within a few weeks of that time. The
legislature adjourned in June, and it was at that time they were opposing our
legislation. And late in June they announced that in July they would close one night a
week, and they put into effect the hours we were asking for by legislation. They did
that of course to offset the organization.
Mr. Thompson. Is there any other matter, Miss Nestor, that you would like to speak
about to this commission in connection with the industrial problems?
Miss Nestor. Well, the thing in particular of course is that I feel that until we have
organization we are not going to solve this question, and that the thing that brings it
about, unrest, the thing that brings about trouble, such grievances and dissatisfaction
that exist among the workers that have no way of voicing their grievances, until we
have that, I think we are going to have unrest; and until we have the employer
educated up to the fact he must deal with his people. You know you can get an
agreement; perhaps you have a strike, and the employer thinks he can't get anyone
to take their place, and he has to go in and signs an agreement. But you don't really
get recognition of the union there, you perhaps don't get it for two years. You don't
get it until there is a change comes about within that man, until he comes to see that
after all he ought to deal with the organization. And I think that some of our
employers that have been dealing with organizations have found that it was after all
just as well to have a way of finding out what was wrong in that factory. They are a
long ways from the shop, sitting down in their offices, they don't know what is going
on up there. There is the foreman and there is all sorts of assistants between them
and the workers, and very often if you can get to them and let them know the
existence of grievances they could be adjusted, and it is necessary to have a way to
really get to them.
Mr. Thompson. Do you think, Miss Nestor, a Federal industrial council, with powers of
investigation, etc., would help in this question?
Miss Nestor. Yes: I think it would.
Mr. Thompson. Particularly in cases like the cases in Michigan and Colorado and West
Virginia.
Miss Nestor. I think it is always well; I think if they could do nothing more than in the
case of dispute, or in case of strikes, or in case of trouble, to bring the two parties
together, really make them come into conference, and try to adjust it. I don't want
compulsory arbitration, I don't believe in it. But I believe if both sides could be brought
together and made to meet each other and talk over their differences, it would go a
long ways toward adjusting it very often.
Mr. Thompson. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Walsh. Mr. Lennon would like to ask you a question or two.
Commissioner Lennon. Miss Nestor, in speaking favorably of the minimum wage for
women and minors, do you desire to secure it by a statute of the legislature or
through wage boards?
Miss Nestor. Through wage boards. I don't believe in a flat rate, and I would very much
dislike to see such a bill passed. I would like to see a law whereby there would be a
minimum wage commission, and they would have the power to organize wage boards
in the different trades, going into each trade separately and inquiring into the wages
and conditions, and to have the workers represented on that wage board, have them
select their own representatives for it, and have the employers represented on the
other side, and the public, and in that way adjust their wage scales. I think it will only
be a beginning any way; I think the workers will finally have to settle the thing with
the employers.
Commissioner Lennon. Now, in giving causes for social and industrial unrest, would you
include as one of the causes, say, the inefficiency of workmen and work women
because of lack of training as children in youth?
Miss Nestor. I think that is one. It deprives them of opportunities, and I think the
supposition of all this work of making people mere machines, putting them at one
monotonous piece of work day in and day out, and the long hours—no matter what
inventions we have, no matter how much the output is increased, through these
inventions, we don't have any comparative reduction in hours as a result of it. We
have to work just as long hours; the strain is very much greater, and the work is as
we know very monotonous, and that can't help but create an unrest.
Commissioner Lennon. Do you consider the present educational system as ample for
the proper training of boys and girls that are to go into industrial life?
Miss Nestor. No. I think there ought to be arrangements made for the education of the
workers for their industrial life just as there is for our professional men and all the
other groups to-day. We have only made arrangements—our schools only lead to the
colleges, where about 10 per cent of our group go, and we have got that other large
group going out in the shop with no training at all. And I feel very strongly that we
ought to have industrial education.
Commissioner Lennon. Do you believe that some such arrangement—I don't mean
exact, but involving the principles that apply in the carpenter school—should be
provided by the State for all the boys and girls that go into industrial life?
Miss Nestor. I think for apprentices that is a very good plan, and I think for all our
young girls and boys, especially our girls, whose trades don't require a long
apprenticeship, we ought to have some training whereby they won't go into, as they
do now, into all those blind-alley trades, go into the most convenient neighborhood
trade, without the proper training.
Commissioner Lennon. Does the Women's Trade Union League favor the raising of the
age at which children may enter industry to a higher age than it now is?
Miss Nestor. We certainly do. I don't believe that any child—we ought to have a law
whereby no child could go into industry before 16. I hope some time we will have it
even higher than that, but that is what I believe it ought to be, 16 years at least.
Commissioner Lennon. What have you noticed as being the effect upon the morals of
women, experience and membership in trade-unions?
Miss Nestor. Their experience in trade-unions?
Commissioner Lennon. Yes; and membership in the trade-unions.
Miss Nestor. Well, I think the education that the women receive in trade-unions, just
the same as the men, is one of the best educations that they possibly could get. It
gives them a wider feeling in regard to their relationship with their fellow workers. It
gives them a new idea, I think, of democracy altogether, and in every way it is an
education to the workers. I think it is—I think they feel their responsibility to their
work more than the unorganized workers do. They know more about the work. Why,
unorganized workers don't know anything about the industry they are in. You take an
organized group of them and they meet with their employer to adjust grievances, and
they know the different angles; they know some of the perhaps unpleasant things
there are in the trade. With the knowledge that they have there I think they are
much better workers than they would be if they didn't know anything about the
industry at all.
Commissioner Lennon. Is it your experience that where through organization women
become more and more interested in their associates and in their welfare that they
take greater interest in themselves and in their own welfare?
Miss Nestor. In some trades we have seen a wonderful change. Especially you take
some of the trades of our young immigrant girls that don't know anything about our
standards, our wages, our hours, or perhaps haven't had an opportunity to mingle
with other groups like some of our American girls have. It really means a new life for
them. There has been a very marked change in some of those girls.
Commissioner Lennon. What effect do you believe unions have in what we might cal
l Americanization of foreigners that come into this country?
Miss Nestor. Well, it has that, and it is the melting pot both. It is a place that breaks
down race prejudice and any other prejudice that exists, and we know it does exist in
the unorganized shop, because so often one nationality has been used against
another. The employer has tried to build up prejudice to simply use the one against
the other. I think the trade-union movement has done more to break down that
prejudice than any other movement.
Commissioner Lennon. What is the attitude of the Women's Trade Union League as to
world peace—peace between nations?
Miss Nestor. We are for peace.
Commissioner Lennon. That is all.
Chairman Walsh. Any questions? Commissioner Delano would like to ask you a question.
Commissioner Delano. There are a great many students of this question industrial
question—as between the employer and employee, that feel that we are drifting to a
condition where either the Government must supervise all large industrial undertakings
or it will be driven to the other alternative of taking them over—Government
ownership. What is your feeling on that subject?
Miss Nestor. I don't know as I got all of your question.
Commissioner Delano. I say one of two things is going to happen, either the
Government will have to supervise all great industrial undertakings to a certain extent
or else it will have to take them over by Government ownership, and operate them.
Miss Nestor. You mean the industry or labor organization?
Commissioner Delano. The industry.
Miss Nestor. The industry. Well, I believe we ought to have public owner ship of public
utilities.
Commissioner Delano. Of public utilities but not other utilities?
Miss Nestor. Yes; some other utilities—some others.
Commissioner Delano. That is all.
United States. Commission on Industrial Relations
D.C. Gov. Print. Office, 1916
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This song is dedicate to the striking waitresses of Chicago, 1913-14, and also to our modern-day Fast Food Workers and their Fight for Fifteen.
A 70 hour, 7-day week may seem almost unbelievable to many in these modern times, and yet, I have friends who work in fast foods, and work that many hours, and more, just to try and make ends meet. More and more we are loosing the gains made with so much sacrifice by those who went before us. Time to stand up and be counted.
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