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A sign and a pin are pictured on the back of a demonstrator during a protest against the shooting death of teenager Michael Brown, in Ferguson, Missouri August 13, 2014. Police in Ferguson fired several rounds of tear gas to disperse protesters late on We
Ferguson police have raised a new issue in the killing of Michael Brown on August 9. With Friday's press conference focusing on a strong-arm robbery of a convenience store, they have implicitly tried to shift the story to whether the shooter—Officer Darren Wilson—was justified in shooting Brown to death. That is the primary question in the investigation now being conduced by the St. Louis County Police Department at the request of the Ferguson police. Dara Lind details the legal issues at Vox.

There are two sets of standards investigators use to determine if deadly force was necessary in an officer-involved killing. One is state law—as informed by Supreme Court precedents—and the other is the rules determined by the officer's police department on the use of force. If the investigators determine state law was broken, the officer will be prosecuted by the state. If they don't, the officer could still be fired from his or her job, if the internal investigation in the department shows they broke the rules. (In this case, there's another investigation by the FBI, but it can only determine a civil rights case, not homicide.) Lind's article clearly lays out the Supreme Court precedents and the process of these investigations through the eyes of two experts on use of force, David Klinger, a University of Missouri-St. Louis professor, and Walter Katz, a California attorney. What it all boils down to in this case in Ferguson is this:

"The moment that you no longer present a threat, I need to stop shooting," said Klinger. According to the St. Louis County Police Department's account, Wilson fired one shot from inside the police car. But Brown was killed some 25 feet away, after several shots had been fired. To justify the shooting, Wilson would need to demonstrate that he feared for his life, or thought Brown was fleeing, not just when Brown was by the car, but even after he started shooting. The officer would need to establish that, right up until the last shot was fired, he felt Brown continued to pose a threat to him, or a threat to flee, whether he actually was or not.

"There's a difference between the moment you cease to be a threat and the moment I perceive that you ceased to be a threat," says Klinger. And Katz points out that if an officer has been assaulted and the suspect runs away, the officer's threat assessment is probably going to be shaped by having just been assaulted. But, Katz says, "one can't just say, 'Because I could use deadly force ten seconds ago, that means I can use deadly force again now.'"

So how relevant is the fact (assuming for the moment that it is fact) that Wilson was pursuing Brown as a suspect in a robbery? That's basically up to the prosecutors, who will determine if this alleged "strong-arm robbery," a physically violent robbery that doesn't involve a weapon, is a violent felony. If it is, it could help provide a legal justification for Wilson's actions, but that could still be limited, because "Wilson would only be able to claim that he was justified if Brown was fleeing—which eyewitnesses say he wasn't."

There are plenty of other questions to answer if Wilson was approaching Brown and his companion Darion Johnson as robbery suspects. For instance, why didn't he immediately apprehend them as robbery suspects? From witness reports, including Johnson's, he initially told the two to get out of the street and onto the sidewalk, then the confrontation escalated. That's not the way an arrest for suspicion of robbery should go down. And finally, why did Wilson continue to shoot—as witnesses have attested—as Brown had his empty hands in the air?

Ultimately, whether or not Michael Brown was a robber isn't the issue, even as Ferguson police are trying to make it be. The shooting of Michael Brown is. Whether or not he took those cigars from the convenience story, he didn't deserve the death penalty.

Originally posted to Joan McCarter on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 09:22 AM PDT.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (46+ / 0-)

    "The NSA’s capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything. [...] There would be no place to hide."--Frank Church

    by Joan McCarter on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 09:22:38 AM PDT

  •  Why isn't Dorian Johnson under arrest? (20+ / 0-)
    Regardless of whether the use of deadly force was justified as a means of apprehending a robbery suspect, on the police's account of events one of the suspects — Johnson — was very much not dead. Why not arrest him? He isn't missing. He's been doing interviews with TV stations.
    http://www.vox.com/...

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "If we appear to seek the unattainable, then let it be known that we do so to avoid the unimaginable." (@eState4Column5)

    by annieli on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 09:25:49 AM PDT

    •  that will come later (15+ / 0-)

      Guy who filmed Eric Garner being choked out was later stopped by cops for "bad behavior" and being outside a known drug source (Walgreen's?).

      Look for a two pronged campaign, one to demonize the victim and the second to discredit any witnesses by ensuring they enjoy a police record

    •  It took them SIX DAYS (24+ / 0-)

      to come up with this lame Bull Shyt.

      Continue to smear the victim, lardasses - see where it might get you; a tainted jury pool, or the prosecutor declining to prosecute at all.

      And if that happens, Holder better be ready to step in and prosecute this case within the Justice Department.  A hate crime has been committed - I don't give a damn if Mike Brown was a robbery suspect or not - if he was a robbery suspect, he and Dorian Johnson should have been arrested, not told "Get on the f*cking sidewalk".

      This fish continues to rot as long as Tom Jackson is around going on Hannity's show to give his viewpoints.  Jackson needs to join the millions already on the unemployment line.

      "Washington, DC: Where Corruption is Rewarded, and Ethical Merit is DESPISED.

      by The Truth on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 09:57:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What is the role of the County DA? (9+ / 0-)

      The release of the CCTV along with the cop's name but none of the details of the shooting smacks of a bungled attempt  at a coverup.  Sone people who live in the St Louis area have said here that the CountY Prosecutor is a real piece of work, very pro police and anti-black based on personal history.  Whoever orchestrated this is only marginally competent, that is clear.

      I understand that the Feds have to avoid being too involved so they can bring a civil rights action if needed,.  This situation cries out for a special prosecutor.  And the Ferguson police need some more help handling this, that is clear.

      Don't bet your future on 97% of climate scientists being wrong. Take action on climate now!

      by Mimikatz on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 09:58:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What if Wilson didnt know about the robbery (13+ / 0-)

      when he stopped Michael?  

      That would explain why they didn't arrest Darian that day or shortly thereafter.  That would also explain why they wouldn't release the first incident report, because it wouldn't have said apprehending robbery suspect.  Wilson didn't shoot to death a robbery suspect, he shot to death a jaywalker.

      A huge reverse engineering of Wilson's crime is potentially happening as we speak.  

      We need to get timelines before there is any police coverup monkey business.  Ofiicer INTENT!!!!!  If it can be proven Wilson didn't know about the robbery, the icky ok to shoot unarmed suspect defense goes out the window.

      It was stated on MSNBC earlier that Wilson was out and about after responding to an illness call with an ambulance.

       How can we find out if he got the word before he saw Michael?

      •  BINGO - jaywalking was the concern (7+ / 0-)

        when the confrontation started.  Police still have not disputed that.  All clues at this point (clues from the vantage point of public opinion) point to Officer Wilson ordering a pair of young men to walk on the sidewalk, not in the street.  Not pursuing robbery suspects.  And yeah that first police report would tell the tale re: whether Wilson can try to argue that the robbery incident has any direct bearing on the fateful and fatal confrontation.  If the robbery incident is not part of the initial report, that tells us something.

        You really nailed it with this comment re: 'reverse engineering'.

        •  My hair has kinda been on fire this morning (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Torta

          because now all that is being discussed is Michael's actions and frame of mind, not Wilson's, and there are too many wtf actions coming from the PD to let the narrative be "set" only against Michael.

          But Im feeling the impotence right now of watching the narrative becoming the reality, that wave is unstoppable at this moment.

        •  Don't attack a cop, and you don't get shot (0+ / 0-)

          He wasn't shot for jaywalking, he was shot for attacking the cop because he knew the cop would radio in and find out he had JUST COMMITTED A ROBBERY. The stupidity of the average DailyKos commenter is astounding, it's like a mirror image of fox news commenters. The left wing is every bit as close-minded as the right-wing, just on completely different issues.

      •  I think it is probable he did but that (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zmom, Rashaverak

        still doesn't excuse executing an unarmed suspect.

        I could easily see the sequence of events be like this
        - Wilson heard the dispatch regarding the strong armed robbery and the description of the suspects
        - He sees them walking down the road
        - Rolls down his window.  Tells them to get over on the sidewalk so he can pull over and detain them
        - He pulls over and opens the door right where they are standing.  Sidearm pulled
        - Because of the law of physics the door bounces back
        - This is when Officer Wilson goes off the rails.  He grabs Mr. Johnson and tries to pull him in the car but because Mr. Johnson is a big guy it doesn't work.  
        - He then shoots at Mr. John with his sidearm which was probably already pulled
        - Mr. Johnson then flees for his life
        - Wilson gives chase and starts shooting
        - Mr. Johnson gets hit but not fatally.
        - Mr. Johnson turns, arms up, and says I am unarmed
        - Wilson, being out of control, keeps shooting

        I see no reason to try and say well it wasn't Mr. Johnson in the store or Wilson didn't know about the robbery when we have confirmation it was Mr. Johnson in the store and it is probable Wilson did know about the robbery.  To me that isn't the point.  To me the point is that Wilson went off the rails and used deadly force when it was wholly unnecessary.

        •  Gah. I meant Mr. Brown (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Rashaverak

          I was readying an article about Dorian Johnson's interview with the FBI right before I posted this.  

        •  Thank you for your reply. Yes, it certainly (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Rashaverak

          could have gone that way, but that version leaves many unanswered questions based on the PD's actions.  I just watched the first press conference a day after the shooting:

          https://www.youtube.com/...

          Not one word about those two guys being robbery suspects, not one word.  I am still trying to find the actual words jaywalking coming out at a press conference, since it has been widely reported that that was the initial reason for the stop, cant find it yet, but jaywalking isn't used in the first press conference either.

        •  Derp much? (0+ / 0-)

          The autopsy already shows he wasn't shot while running, you may want to read a news article once in awhile.  The door bounces back and he goes off? REALLY? You are making absurd statements to back up your false reality of an innocent victim. Your poster boy is a mouth-breathing, criminal piece of crap. Deal with it.

      •  The facts support the officer (0+ / 0-)

        Um, no he shot to death someone who viciously attacked him. The autopsy already confirms that it was a lie that he was shot in the back while running. Micheal Brown was a fat, stupid clown, who was actually dumb enough to punch a cop in the face, doing damage to the inside of his eye. He was promptly shot several times, and the cop almost died of suffocation before rolling the obese moron's body off of him. The only racial hatred in this case is the Ferguson community's hatred of white people. If Michael Brown had been white, no one would care.

    •  I suspect because he didn't rough up (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MusicFarmer, whl, Rashaverak

      the store clerk so the DA of the county of St. Louis didn't see the point in charging him.  

      Dorian Johnson has already been interviewed by at least the FBI about the incident so it isn't like he hasn't been talking to authorities about what he saw.

      •  accessory... (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        whl, earthling1, graywolf1948, Rashaverak

        to a crime.  They charge for that all the time.  In fact, if I remember correctly, being an accessory to a crime that results in a death can get you charged for murder yourself, even if you didn't have a weapon in your hand or anything.

        We can NOT pretend to be a democracy when we have secret laws, with secret courts, with secret verdicts, with secret prisoners, in secret prisons!

        by MusicFarmer on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 10:03:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  btw, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          whl, Rashaverak

          I am not saying that is what should happen in this case...just pointing it out.

          We can NOT pretend to be a democracy when we have secret laws, with secret courts, with secret verdicts, with secret prisoners, in secret prisons!

          by MusicFarmer on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 10:06:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Felony Murder (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MusicFarmer
            Second degree murder, penalty.
            565.021. 1. A person commits the crime of murder in the second degree if he:

            (1) Knowingly causes the death of another person or, with the purpose of causing serious physical injury to another person, causes the death of another person; or

            (2) Commits or attempts to commit any felony, and, in the perpetration or the attempted perpetration of such felony or in the flight from the perpetration or attempted perpetration of such felony, another person is killed as a result of the perpetration or attempted perpetration of such felony or immediate flight from the perpetration of such felony or attempted perpetration of such felony.

            2. Murder in the second degree is a class A felony, and the punishment for second degree murder shall be in addition to the punishment for commission of a related felony or attempted felony, other than murder or manslaughter.

            3. Notwithstanding section 556.046 and section 565.025, in any charge of murder in the second degree, the jury shall be instructed on, or, in a jury-waived trial, the judge shall consider, any and all of the subdivisions in subsection 1 of this section which are supported by the evidence and requested by one of the parties or the court.

            [Emphasis added.]

            Link

        •  I agree with you (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MusicFarmer

          MusicFarmer.  If they really are "reverse eng." this debacle, Johnson could see these charges against him.
          btw Nice sig line, but, as we have seen from recent nights, you need to add  "Secret Police".

          The Job Killing Republican Party is directly responsible for the Great Bush Recession.

          by earthling1 on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 11:04:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  can't prove accessory in this case (0+ / 0-)

          Dorian did not participate in the crime in any way. They would have to prove Dorian knew his friend intended to rob the store when they entered. Which they can't, obviously. (And to me it seems likely he genuinely didn't know — I have a feeling that Michael Brown was not planning to rob the store, he just did it on the spur of a moment, because teenagers just do stupid shit like that.)

          •  teenagers rob stores all the time... right... (0+ / 0-)

            Most teenagers don't commit strong-arm robberies LOL. Fat, borderline-retarded pieces of crap like Michael Brown do, though. I'm not surprised he was shot 10 minutes later. I'm surprised Michael Brown wasn't shot to death earlier, he was truly too stupid to live.

    •  Johnson has apparently told the FBI (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TomP

      that Brown stole the cigars:

      “We see that there’s tape, that they claim they got a tape that shows there was some sort of strong-armed robbery,” said Freeman Bosley, Johnson’s attorney. “We need to see that tape, my client did tell us and told the FBI that they went into the store. He told FBI that [Brown] did take cigarillos. He told that to the DOJ and the St. Louis County Police.” MSNBC

      Conservatives seem to believe that the rich will work harder if we give them more, and the poor will work harder if we give them less. E.J. Dionne

      by blueyescryinintherain on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 10:21:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Why didn't Johnson mention this in interviews? (3+ / 0-)

      Now it's a big mess.  Brown basically assaulted the clerk, committed petty larceny, and Johnson doesn't mention any of this in all the interviews he did?

      Legally, I still think this is murder, but politically it makes it  hard to do some real police reforms.  The right wing propaganda machine will be all over this, then the media will report what the RWPM is saying, then an uninformed public will get confused, stop paying attention, and go back to watching honey-boo-boo.

      •  Last I checked theft not a capital crime (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        The Truth

        This should be additional evidence why we need reform.  Broken windows policing has led to broken police depts.  I don't see this changes much because Brown was shot multiple times while fleeing and surrendering.  Even if Brown was on weed and/or pushed the officer, there is no basis to hunt him down and shoot and kill him while he was surrendering.  The police dept needs serious reforms.

        Don't bet your future on 97% of climate scientists being wrong. Take action on climate now!

        by Mimikatz on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 10:59:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It will be politically more difficult now. (0+ / 0-)

          Petty larceny wouldn't be a big deal, but the assault on the clerk is going to be a problem.  Johnson should have gave us a warning about this.  He may have a problem under cross examination and it's not going to be helpful.

        •  DailyPOSE (0+ / 0-)

          No, he wasn't shot while fleeing. Read the autopsy. You are stating flat-out LIES! The only reform needed is in the community of Ferguson, where being a stupid, looting criminal is a badge of honor. Good luck improving the black community by attacking police officers and burning down stores.

      •  unfortunately, it's worse than that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pollwatcher

        Not only did Dorian omit this little detail in all of his media interviews, but in at least one interview he spun a completely different story, whereby he just happened to see Michael Brown walking a few hundred feet ahead of him, ran to catch up with him, and then they started walking together.

        This shouldn't really matter all that much, but it will. I mean, it's understandable he wouldn't tell anybody about the robbery, and that he'd fabricate a story to explain how he just happened to see his friend out walking, but you can bet the defense (assuming this even goes to trial — which it damn well better) will pound on these inconsistencies and minor fabrications and try to convince the jury you can't believe anything he says about that day.

        Fortunately there are other eyewitnesses.

      •  Brown the Clown (0+ / 0-)

        The only people that watch that Honey-boo-boo crap are liberals who desperately want to believe that a small collection of rednecks make up the majority of America. The robbery is KEY because it shows Michael Brown's mindset when he viciously attacked the cop. Oh wait, he was shot when he was running away (even though the autopsy clearly shows he wasn't shot in the back...)

    •  my thoughts exactly (0+ / 0-)

      smells like a BS story to cover their butts after the fact IMO.  If they wanted to pursue two robbery suspects, why did they stop with killing one and letting the other walk away, do media interviews, and not even question him?

    •  this has been answered - he committed no crime (0+ / 0-)

      Dorian Johnson didn't steal anything and didn't use force against anybody. It's not a crime to be standing there when your friend spontaneously does something stupid.

      Ferguson police have announced they won't be charging him with a crime for the simple reason he didn't commit one.

  •  description was of one black male in a white (15+ / 0-)

    t shirt with no physical descriptors.  So this anonymous guy made a smash and grab at at a convenience store, runs out of the store and immediately hooks up with a friend and proceeds, laughing and talking to walk down the street.

    Even the cop's narrative does not display correct procedure.  If he were outmanned, he should have called for back up before initiating a stop.  He also should have separated the two guys and then have them stand in a neutral stance until back up arrived.

    Procedure is not rolling up beside the suspect, engaging in conversation and then, with your car right beside him, attempt to exit the car, so the door can close back on you or suspect can effect entry into your car.  If you are a cop making a solo stop on two males, distance is your friend as is politeness.  However this cop, from his car seat, evidently, engaged the two guys, did not like their answers and tried to exit the vehicle and then the stories diverge.  

  •  I know that ex-cop Klinger is an expert... (21+ / 0-)

    ...in such matters. But the idea that cops comply with the law when shooting a fleeing suspect contradicts Garner v. Tennessee, the go-to case in such matters. From Justice White's opinion for the 6-3 majority ruling:

    “This case requires us to determine the constitutionality of the use of deadly force to prevent the escape of an apparently unarmed suspected felon. We conclude that such force may not be used unless it is necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.

    The intrusiveness of a seizure by means of deadly force is unmatched. The suspect’s fundamental interest in his own life need not be elaborated upon. The use of deadly force also frustrates the interest of the individual, and of society, in judicial determination of guilt and punishment. Against these interests are ranged governmental interests in effective law enforcement [… ] we are not convinced that the use of deadly force is a sufficiently productive means of accomplishing them to justify the killing of nonviolent suspects. [...]

    The use of deadly force to prevent the escape of all felony suspects, whatever the circumstances, is constitutionally unreasonable. It is not better that all felony suspects die than that they escape. Where the suspect poses no immediate threat to the officer and no threat to others, the harm resulting from failing to apprehend him does not justify the use of deadly force to do so. It is no doubt unfortunate when a suspect who is in sight escapes, but the fact that the police arrive a little late or are a little slower afoot does not always justify killing the suspect. A police officer may not seize an unarmed, nondangerous suspect by shooting him dead. The Tennessee statute is unconstitutional insofar as it authorizes the use of deadly force against such fleeing suspects.

    It is not, however, unconstitutional on its face. Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force. Thus, if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent escape, and if, where feasible, some warning has been given. As applied in such circumstances, the Tennessee statute would pass constitutional muster.

    If, of course, Brown was not fleeing but throwing up his hands in surrender as witnesses have said, then the unreasonableness of Wilson's response is even greater.

    Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

    by Meteor Blades on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 09:54:57 AM PDT

    •  thanks for this (4+ / 0-)

      there are so many hurdles that the police in this case would have to clear to justify this killing, but even assuming that Brown was a violent cigar thief and that the police actually knew of the robbery and considered Brown a suspect, what about a warning to a fleeing suspect before shooting?  
      Did any of the witnesses hear the cop say "stop or I'll shoot"?  Oh wait, all the witnesses are probably criminals too--did they find anything on the black female witness who took some video?

      you can shit on my face but that doesn't mean I have to lick my lips

      by red rabbit on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 10:07:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, this case should overide the Missouri statute (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Got a Grip

      that allows an officer to use deadly force in a felony case when the suspect flees.

      A rising tide sinks all boats that are anchored to the bottom.

      by Zwoof on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 10:31:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks for pointing that out. (0+ / 0-)

      I was thinking the constant assertions that it's perfectly OK to kill someone who's running away from an arrest attempt were ... well, let's just say insane, and leave it at that.  All the more so when bullets are involved, and the very thing that all human nature would insist on to save your life (run!) would be used as justification to kill you.

  •  So why was this info not released before today? (10+ / 0-)

    I have  a hard time believing that Michael Brown was a suspect when this is the first we're all hearing of it.  I also have a hard time believing that a kid who was ready to go to a technical school in a matter of days would suddenly "go rogue" and rob a store in broad daylight and jeopardize the future he's trying to make for himself.

  •  This is typical corrupt police department style: (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shaharazade, whl, a2nite, Mimikatz

    intimidate a minority member, get rough, shoot, try to blame the victim.  Ferguson P.D. is just too stupid to make this believable since the world say their over the top aggression on display after the shooting.  Of course, if this were a larger PD with lots of shootings, they would have had a drop gun handy to say the victim was armed.  That is how it used to go down in Los Angeles when Parker and Davis were chiefs.

    Then put in the Prosecutor's office in collusion where every officer involved shooting is deemed appropriate.  We need Citizen review boards and honest policy chiefs to turn this around.

    •  If the Ferguson police are trying to turn what (5+ / 0-)

      was 1st described as a jaywalking stop into an attempted apprehension of a robbery suspect, they shouldn't have suited up in body armor and rode tanks into peaceful demonstrators while pointing sniper rifles at reporters.

      What with all the shooting of rubber bullets, throwing around smoke bombs and gassing everybody, they have drawn attention to a possible coverup that was best done on the down low.

      WWPD or 'What Would Putin Do?' is no way to give cover to a cover up.

      •  Sounds like they didn't have info on the theft (3+ / 0-)

        When Brown was shot, only found out about it later, possibly even from Johnson.  At that point they tried to graft it onto the cop stopping him for walking in the street to beef up their case.  And why release this info but not who many times he was shot and front or back?  Bungled coverup.

        Don't bet your future on 97% of climate scientists being wrong. Take action on climate now!

        by Mimikatz on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 11:03:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It is easy to go there. Why would you keep the (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          OleHippieChick, The Truth

          fact that Brown was a robbery suspect quiet, and let the explosive story that Brown was shot to death for jaywalking establish itself, bury the autopsy report, refuse to release the cops name, and go all Desert Storm on an outraged community, when the facts, tragic as they might be, would have helped to avoid a racially charged escalation that might get someone else killed?

          Unless you were fixing the facts so a murder over jaywalking could become a legal shooting death of a fleeing felon?

  •  And a white kid suspected of cigar theft?!? (9+ / 0-)

    Would he have been shot dead?
    Give me a break.

    •  That white kid in Texas (0+ / 0-)

      ...sure got away with mowing down six people and killing them in his high priced car bought for him by his parents because of "Affluenza" you know.

      He could have snatched cigarellos in Ferguson and we probably wouldn't have heard Officer Darren Wilson say shyt at all, because he's a white kid.

      As Chris Rock says, "It's all RIGHT if you're all WHITE."

      "Washington, DC: Where Corruption is Rewarded, and Ethical Merit is DESPISED.

      by The Truth on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 01:33:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Mission Accomplished (10+ / 0-)

    You've got people debating the guilt or non guilt of shooting victim instead of officer's "professional" record. Don't surprise me though, this department has a history of lying.

    The Day Ferguson Cops Got Caught In A Bloody Lie

    "It strikes me as gruesome and comical that in our culture we have an expectation that a man can always solve his problems" - Kurt Vonnegut

    by jazzence on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 10:05:04 AM PDT

  •  No sense in the Cops talking about it. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, whl

    When they complete their investigation into the entire thing, they should present their evidence in full.  They should do it quickly and not reveal information piecemeal.

    I suspect we will have video from the quickie mart and that some of the witness statements will be verified.

    Is it better to lose than be lost?

    by Publius2008 on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 10:05:07 AM PDT

    •  well ..tomorrow it will be. (0+ / 0-)

      one week. Do the police have the right to keep all information from the public, until they get their story straight? This is a homicide, and he murdered a kid. Defending the guy is the job of a defense attorney, not the police department.

  •  The dispatch tapes (6+ / 0-)

    (The cops' side to which we do not yet have access ) will tell us if this patrol officer knew he was dealing with a "robbery suspect" or a merely a teenage jaywalker.

    I suspect it is the latter.

    Those tapes are time-stamped. That's a good thing.

    © grover


    So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

    by grover on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 10:05:09 AM PDT

  •  Let the games begin. Ferguson PD? BRING IT! (10+ / 0-)

    People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people. --V for Vendetta

    by WFBMM on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 10:05:15 AM PDT

  •  Repeal Any Law Allowing the Shooting (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    whl

    I'm not sure of Missouri law, but if it allows a police officer to shoot a fleeing unarmed suspect, even after a reasonable stop, then that law should be repealed.

  •  Every response to every justification put forwa... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    whl, Praxxus

    Every response to every justification put forward should be a simple yes/no question. "Is that why an unarmed black teenager was executed"?

  •  Wait wait wait wait wait WHAT? (7+ / 0-)
    "Wilson would only be able to claim that he was justified if Brown was fleeing—which eyewitnesses say he wasn't."
    You can shoot a guy dead if he's running away from you? This is OK?

    Holy Christ that is royally fucked up if true.

    "Hey guy come over here...closer, you're not allowed to resist...OK, see this gun right here, I'm going to shoot you with it right now and kill you...oh, now you're running away, I TOTALLY get to kill you now."

    You couldn't load a pistol with dormitive virtue and shoot it into a breakfast-roll - CS Peirce

    by Mr Raymond Luxury Yacht on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 10:14:38 AM PDT

  •  yes (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    whl

    at the moment he turned, hands up ... there should be no more shots, the threat having dissipated. Timeline is crucial.

  •  This is why they will smear Tiffany Mitchell (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, TomP, OleHippieChick

    Can't have two witnesses saying Brown was surrendering with his hands in the air without smearing both of them.

    What the Right Wing calls "being politically correct" is what my mama used to teach me was "being polite".

    by Walt starr on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 10:20:04 AM PDT

  •  Re-post from below (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OleHippieChick
    Is this Photoshopped? Seriously (0+ / 0-)
    Does it say 11:53 in the first two frames then 11:59?
    If so at 11:53 the clerk looks scared enough to give him whatever based on size alone.
    They then stand in the same spots for 6 minutes?
    The lighting changes. And he has a gun pointed despite the fact that he is turned as if walking from the waste down. Then two seconds later the gun is gone and the clerk has moved away?
    Look at the clerks foot, his leaning back seems about identifical. They stayed in about the same pose and as he turned to leave pulled a gun out 6 minutes later?
    Whether  11:53 or 11:59. I cannot tell looks like 11:59 how could the clerk have telephoned police so that the officer knew at 12:01? Youare in shock call 911. You probably lock the door wait til they leave. How far was this away? Can you walk there in 2 minutes? in 9?
    How could they have a description in 2 minutes. If you just robbed a place 10 minutes ago would you walk in the street? Where did the gun go in that time?
    In the bottom left frame is that clerk standing now on 1 foot?
    I just especially if the top are 11:53 and the bottom 11::59 do not see how they stand in the same place for 6 minutes?
    This seems really implausible. It looks like photo-shop honestly.

    We produce more renewable energy than any other state - WA Gov. Jay Inslee

    by mrobinson on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 10:22:38 AM PDT

  •  The kid was "fleeing." (0+ / 0-)

    End of story.

    Wilson skates.

    •  But he stopped and surrendered with his hands up (6+ / 0-)

      and was shot 7 more times until he went down dead.

      "I'm not mad at them (tea party) for being loud, I'm mad at us for being silent for the last two years. Where have we been"? "it was never yes HE can, it was Yes WE can". - Van Jones

      by sillycilla on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 10:28:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, and that matters? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OleHippieChick

        To the cops?  To the "investigators"?  To the DA who ripped Nixon?

        This whole thing is fucking sickening.

        And the next time someone in my town assumes I'm a racist just like he or she is, because we are both white, I'm going to punch the bastard in the face.  

        Here in beautiful Havertown, PA, certain respectables (not all) refer to blacks as "Canadians" because you can't say "nigger."

  •  shooting a fleeing robbery suspect... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Praxxus, TomP, OleHippieChick

    ...is not justified.   Shooting anybody who's just suspected and is fleeing is not justified.

    If I saw somebody killing people, I'd likely shoot them even if they were fleeing, because you'd assume they'd kill other people if you didn't.  For example, a school shooter.  

    But what's going to happen if a shoplifter escapes you?  Maybe he'll shoplift again.  That's definitely not a good thing, but the crime doesn't justify taking somebody's life.

    I've had two crimes happen at my house.

    In one, my cousin was living in a house I have off to the side of my house, while she was going to college.  She called at 4 in the morning because someone was trying to break in.  I went out with a gun and tried to catch the guy who was doing it.  He got away, but if I'd caught the guy I might have shot him because I was assuming he was trying to harm my cousin.   Most likely he was just a burglar who didn't know she was in the house and when she started yelling after she called me, he fled.  If I'd caught him, I'd much prefer to get him to stop and hold him for police, though.  Shooting him was not something I was definitely going to do, but in that case, it was a possibility, because who knows what he wanted to do to my cousin?

    Another time, I saw a guy get out of a passing car, which then drove away.  He looked around at the cars in my carport, apparently seeing if they had keys left in them.  I was watching him do this out my front window, wondering what was up.  Then he picked up a can of gasoline I had there and ran off to the highway with it, where his friends picked him up.  Now, I could've grabbed a gun and ran out shot this guy... but I'd've been an idiot.  Stealing something is not worth killing someone over.   I'd rather he got away with it.  And, he did -- I reported it to the cops, just so they'd have it on record, but knew I wasn't likely to get my gas can back.  And, I didn't.  Still no regrets that I didn't shoot the guy... even if I could've gotten away with it in court, which wouldn't be likely.  Pissed me off to be stolen from, sure, but the crime's just not worth a life.  Not even remotely.

    I know this, and I'm not a cop.  You'd think someone with a cop's training would understand when use of deadly force is justified, or not.  Even if you're sworn to uphold the law, you can't just kill over any ol' crime.  

    "Glenn Beck ends up looking like a fat, stupid child. His face should be wearing a chef's hat on the side of a box of eclairs. " - Doug Stanhope

    by Front Toward Enemy on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 10:26:18 AM PDT

    •  He is a petty theft suspect. Cigarillos. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Front Toward Enemy

      Not grand larceny much less armed robbery.  Shooting him while fleeing is not justified let alone shooting him while he was surrendering.  That is deprivation of life without due process and under color of law for racial reasons.  This will lead to federal charges.

      Don't bet your future on 97% of climate scientists being wrong. Take action on climate now!

      by Mimikatz on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 11:08:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  yep. The shooting wasn't even remotely justified. (0+ / 0-)

        The police will have a hard time making a case even if they found out Brown was guilty of stealing the cigars (which is a big if).   What are they going to say, "If we'd let him get away, he might've gone on to steal cupcakes"?  

        And when you add on that he was surrendering on top of it all, the cops have no case whatsoever.  

        "Glenn Beck ends up looking like a fat, stupid child. His face should be wearing a chef's hat on the side of a box of eclairs. " - Doug Stanhope

        by Front Toward Enemy on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 11:12:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  layman/slanted story (0+ / 0-)

    For a minute I thought I was reading Fox News website before I realized its daiklykos.com  Again my fellow liberals are passing judgment without all the facts.  Beginning to sound more and more like the wingnutts we detest.  The boy was fleeing.  There are photos taken from video roughing up and robbing a store.  A robbery is a robbery.  I worked in criminal defense law for 2 years and got to the point where I was sick of having criminals walk free.  It's amazing how criminals blame everyone and everything but themselves.

    •  I don't care whether current law (0+ / 0-)

      justifies the shooting. That's the point. The law needs to change. When this kind of shit keeps happening, something is not working. Any time an unarmed teenager ends up dead at the hands of a police officer, no matter what they did, that is not acceptable. There should be some accountability.

    •  Yes, I remember you from a few days ago (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      housesella, NW liberal, NancyK, lostboyjim

      and it's good to know what I suspected back then. You are in favor of execution on the street for the theft of Swisher Sweets. I'm so glad the citizens of Wisconsin had you representing them, no wonder our private prison system is so overflowing.

    •  Petty theft is not a capital offense. (0+ / 0-)

      If some people who have committed serious crimes got off because the police or prosecutors bungled their case or didn't follow proper procedure, that does not justify shooting a person fleeing a petty theft, even assuming the officer knew of the theft, which we do not know here.

      My guess is that he was shot for defying the officer by trying to close the car door and then running away.  The officer was enraged and lost his judgment.  Not professional behavior.

      Don't bet your future on 97% of climate scientists being wrong. Take action on climate now!

      by Mimikatz on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 11:12:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Fine ... but the shooter DIDN'T KNOW (0+ / 0-)

      About the robbery!

  •  After a night of peaceful protests (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, earthling1

    things just got so, so much worse. This should have been expected, we should have seen this coming. Last night felt like a victory after what had happened earlier in the week, but now we see just how far the "thin blue line" and "the shield" will go to uphold their reputation. Michael Brown is dead, and he isn't laying in the street like someone who took errant warning shot for stealing some Swisher Sweets. It's more reminiscent of Sonny Corleone in The Godfather. We have now been informed by the Ferguson PD just how much a black life is worth in this country, and we should take it to heart. $49.99, the cost of a box of flavored mini-cigars.

    The right has been hesitant to jump in on this up til this point. They are going to pounce now, their bloodlust has been activated and they won't be sated. Will the help of a imbecile media, the narrative might have been irreversibly changed. We still have social media, but the IDEA of Michael Brown as a "srong-arm robbery" suspect has been put into the atmosphere, and once the idea of the big, dangerous black man is released, that genie doesn't go back in the bottle.

    The issues we have been talking about, the murder of black men for petty crimes, the militarization of our police forces, the solidarity of millions around the country, has now been turned into one very simple line of attack. Michael Brown was a thug who deserved what he got. That is now what we are dealing with, and it's best to think of ways to combat it right now, because their isn't much time to set things right.

    •  Did you see the video pics? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Peace Missile, Zornorph

      I did, and my immediate sympathy went to the clerk who actually exhibited a fair amount of courage.

      The fact that you and others should consider is that if Michael Brown had not not initiated this sequence of events, none of this would have happened and he would be alive today.   I agree no one should die for stealing cigars but I'm waiting for actual facts on the  shooting before making any judgements.

      •  I'm curious as to what other crimes (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        housesella

        you think we, as Americans, should be executed in the middle of the street for committing?? Maybe speeding in a construction zone or breaking a window possibly. Hell, let's just do away with the court system all together and have cops take on the Judge Dread roll.

        Once in college I was in car with a group I guys I barely knew who pulled into a gas station at 1 o' clock in the morning and stole hundreds of dollars worth of stuff, something I was unaware until they came back into the car. Assuming a cop had pulled up and I had asked what the hell was going on, I can safely assume that the officer should have just shot me dead on the spot. Oh wait, I'm white, and that would never happen.

        •  Read my last sentence (0+ / 0-)

          and see if you want to revise your comment.

          •  I wouldn't like to revise at thing (0+ / 0-)

            because the context of your statement, regardless of the disclaimer at the end, is the EXACT narrative that is trying to be hammered home by the Ferguson PD. 'Well, it's a tragedy that this kid had to die, but he did push a store clerk and stole some cigars, so let's just call it a wash."

            Unless he was firing at that cop he should not have been killed PERIOD. Your entire line of reasoning stipulates that if you happen to shoplift a box of cigars, you better be prepared for ANYTHING to happen, including your own death in the middle of a street.

        •  he/she states very clearly (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          peregrinus

          ...he/she DOES NOT believe a person should die for stealing cigars. try reading before attacking.

          "An inglorious peace is better than a dishonorable war." -Mark Twain

          by humanistique on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 11:04:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Lip service to decency while (0+ / 0-)

            blaming, smearing, demonizing the Evil Black...Murder Victim.

            Not worth an HR, but means their opinion isn't worth jack shit.

            If it's
            Not your body,
            Then it's
            Not your choice
            And it's
            None of your damn business!

            by TheOtherMaven on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 11:51:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  that person did no such thing (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              peregrinus

              ...and said absolutely nothing racist. stop smearing people and acting like a fool.

              "An inglorious peace is better than a dishonorable war." -Mark Twain

              by humanistique on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 12:04:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Are you fucking kidding me????? (0+ / 0-)
                my immediate sympathy went to the clerk who actually exhibited a fair amount of courage.

                The fact that you and others should consider is that if Michael Brown had not not initiated this sequence of events, none of this would have happened and he would be alive today.  

                That tacked-on last sentence is WORTHLESS.

                If it's
                Not your body,
                Then it's
                Not your choice
                And it's
                None of your damn business!

                by TheOtherMaven on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 12:16:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  sadly true though (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  peregrinus

                  ...it's very unfortunate that that the narrative has changed with this revelation. NO, that does not mean that a young man who was allegedly involved in a theft deserved to be killed.

                  but the fact that Brown was perhaps apprehended legitimately (we'll see) changes the story here from a young man walking while black to being a suspect in a crime that day which was violent. there is little question that led to the deadly & tragic series of events. you can't honestly refute that idea. sorry.

                  "An inglorious peace is better than a dishonorable war." -Mark Twain

                  by humanistique on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 12:30:24 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Spare me your racist horseshit (0+ / 0-)

              I would have the same opinion if it was a 250 pound white dude.   You know that rule about not being a dick?   Think about it.

              •  And I would say it was murder if it was (0+ / 0-)

                white on black, black on white, purple on green, or pink with yellow polka dots on blue and orange stripes.

                And your opinion ISN'T worth jack shit.

                If it's
                Not your body,
                Then it's
                Not your choice
                And it's
                None of your damn business!

                by TheOtherMaven on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 07:20:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Robbery suspect? (6+ / 0-)

    Let's hear the dispatch tapes. As Joan stated, the confrontation was specifically about walking in the street (while black.)

    A true craftsman will meticulously construct the apparatus of his own demise.

    by onionjim on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 10:30:51 AM PDT

  •  Robbery info is important (0+ / 0-)

    It shows that the police had a legit reason to come into contact with Brown in the first place, and were not just randomly harassing him, or stopped for being black as many people had believed.

    However, I do find it suspicious that they are releasing so much info about the robbery, and so little about the killing.

    In the end though, the initial reason for the contact between police and Brown is tangental.  The key issue is still how Brown was shot and killed, and why he was shot and killed.

  •  Where is the smear (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Zornorph

    you wrote about eartlier?   I was traveling during this whole incident and based on early reports and the diaries here  it sounded like an 18 year old choirboy youth who loved his mother was gunned down in cold blood by militarized demon cops.   Now I see video of a 6' 4" 250 pound guy roughing up a clerk half his size for a couple of boxes of cigars.   I'm still trying to sort out how he came to be shot but I sure can't believe much I read here for reality based information.    This place works best as a leftist echo chamber distorting real events to score political points.

    To your point that he should not die for a couple of boxes of cigars?  Agree competely.

    •  Possibly the hesitancy to believe the cops (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OleHippieChick

      comes from the fact that, up until this morning, this was being described as a jaywalking incident. The fact that no official word on the shooter was made public until they were forced to do so. Perhaps because we have a police chief making a macabre comparison of the photos of the shooting and a surveillance tape, all staged to distract from the fact that this 18 year old was shot in the back with his hands up no less than 7 times. We have 3 eyewitnesses who tell the same story. Furthermore, why the hell has his friend Damien, who is named as an accomplice in the report, not been arrested?? The kid was been doing national TV interviews all week, it's not like he has gone to the mattresses.

    •  It does seem that the entire picture (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      peregrinus

      that we believed - that this was a completely innocent kid - was not true. That doesn't mean that he should have been shot, but it certainly makes the cop's story (that he resisted) a lot more believable. At this point we all should probably shut up and wait for the facts to really come out.

    •  Well if u don't like this place feel free to go... (0+ / 0-)

      Well if u don't like this place feel free to go back to yahoo

  •  The multiple versions/stories/fantasies collapse (0+ / 0-)

    Here's a good demonstration:
    1. Borrow some kid's toy pistol and holster and slip the loop over your own belt, just as if you were all rigged for a gun fight at OK Corral.
    2. Have a friend, relative, neighbor, any other human, join you at the driver's side of your car.
    3. Get into the car and sit in the driver's seat.
    4. Offer the other human $100 cash to reach through the window and take the pistol away from you. Give 'em $50 if he/she can even get a hand on the toy.
    [break time]
    Now, as the other human stands outside the car, you draw the toy pistol and aim it. Could you miss?

    So any being with an IQ higher than a rutabaga would drop that line of krap.

    Warning: for the next tale, do not try to demonstrate this at home. Imagine you are in the driver's seat and open the car door and begin to get out--as the other human stands close to the opening car door. Wham! The pretend assailant slams the door against you.

    I weigh about 200 pounds. If some person attempts to get out of a car and my full body forces the door against him/her--I won't have to worry about any shooting at me. In fact the idiot in the car will probably require medical treatment.

    So any storytelling police officer, with an IQ larger than his/her belt size, will have to abandon that fairy tale and not try to fly it by folks who have experience with such altercations.

    It will be interesting to see/hear the new phantasy phictions phonied up by the Ferguson police as they try to justify the excessive use of deadly force. The FBI will never buy what's been sold so far.

    We're all just working for Pharaoh.

    by whl on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 11:02:11 AM PDT

  •  This whole mess is like an explosion in a (0+ / 0-)

    clock factory and then trying to assemble the clocks from the debris.

    Someone with a respected nonjudgmental and independent reputation should be retained to set up a timeline and the details of the entire case before everything, including witness testimony becomes tainted.

    It's a shame we have no video documentation of the whole incident and not just the aftermath.

    How far away from the shooting was the store at which the cigars were stolen? We can see how the suspect in the robbery was dressed, does it match the attire Michael Brown was wearing?

    That being said, this shooting should have never occurred.

    "Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen!" oder "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"

    by drpmeade on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 11:06:01 AM PDT

  •  New Rule? Police statements must be issued (0+ / 0-)

    by the Mayor's office alone. Or the Governor's office, or the Office of the Chief Prosecutor of the State, the Attorney General or even the local office of the Federal DOJ if a fatality has occurred.

    The local authorities are far too washed in the local political chaos of the moment. It is far too unlikely that any statement will be clear of self-serving spin and self-justification.

    It would be much better policy to have legal authorities of the State or even the DOJ make the initial statement after a preliminary investigation. There should be a few items always included, mostly about the facts of the incident as known, facts of the policeman involved, facts about the victim, and facts about how the process will work from then on.

    It is time to remove local spin doctoring from the equation in these highly dangerous situations. The State interest in peace and justice demands a more impartial process.

    Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

    by OregonOak on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 12:06:01 PM PDT

  •  These kops are so lame. (0+ / 0-)

    The kid became a suspect in a robbery the minute the kop shot him. Before that, the kid and his friend were having their balls busted by the kop for walking in the road.
    As Joan said, the (lack of) action doesn't meet the kopsplanation.

    "He went to Harvard, not Hogwarts." ~Wanda Sykes
    Teh Twitterz, I'z awn dem.
    Blessinz of teh Ceiling Cat be apwn yu, srsly.

    by OleHippieChick on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 12:24:45 PM PDT

  •  THis will likely go to trial (0+ / 0-)

    ...where the cop will be acquitted by a jury of his peers, based on the fact that the victim is a "pos", and all the witnesses are either unreliable, tainted, or otherwise inconsistent with their stories.  After what happened in the aftermath, they will have no choice but to move this trial to a different jurisdiction,...where the cop will get a far "better" jury (for him).  He'll be represented by some hi-profile good attorney hired by right-wing donations put up by people who just hate to see a good cop get "lynched" by the "liberal media feeding frenzy".  

    The prosecution will be by some local DA flunky that can't get a job in a firm making real money (like the OJ case).  It will be a legal mismatch (also like the OJ case), and the cop will get a real good jury of mostly white people who are predisposed to assume the black criminal kid had it coming.   The cop will feign remorse for this terrible tragedy/accident, and be a more sympathetic figure to the jury than the big black kid beating up a store clerk half his size for a box of cigars.  It will be the convenience store video against the aftermath video (and tainted witnesses), and the convenience store robbery narrative will win.  

    You all KNOW it will go down that way.  It just will. And, most of America could care less.  This is only a big story here.  Now that the Special Forces have left town, nobody else cares - least of all the people who could prevent the outcome I predicted above.

  •  Will views change with time? (0+ / 0-)

    The reality is MichaelBrown committed strong arm robbery before being killed by a police officer which means he could have been shot and killed in the store by the store owner. Since he committed strong arm robbery, he was headed to prison instead of college if he had lived.  Many WILL see him as a thug.

    To make matters even worse, his friend, the witness, carried the stolen goods out the store so they can still arrest him and send him to prison! This also decreases his credibility as a witness. Also, like the guy said he committed strong arm robbery and that is considered a crime of violence not theft in reality.  Brown may have been thinking about the crime he had just committed that led him to responding to the officer the way that he did. So, all of this changes the perspective of things, especially since now many see Brown as a thug.

    What is not making sense to me is why would a police officer sitting in his car grab someone outside of his car? I am still not sure what the truth is. It is no longer a far stretch to believe Brown may have tried to get the officer's gun since he had just committed strong armed robbery. I don't believe he did this, but what he did do sure muddies the waters.   The parents' attorney say that appears to be Brown.  His clothing also matches what he died in.  He is also seen in different photos with that same cap on.  Plus, it is difficult to NOT recognize his friend the witness in that store video.

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