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Riot police clear demonstrators from a street in Ferguson, Missouri, August 13, 2014. Police in Ferguson fired several rounds of tear gas to disperse protesters late on Wednesday, on the fourth night of demonstrations over the fatal shooting last weekend
You won't see anyone calling for Second Amendment remedies here.
This past week, the nation was collectively transfixed by the unthinkable events in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson, Missouri. On August 9, teenager Michael Brown became just the latest in an all-too-long string of unarmed black men killed by the police. What happened next was shocking and appalling: as demonstrators gathered nightly to honor Brown's life and decry how cheap some authorities consider the value of black lives, an interdepartmental police force with little leadership and even less self-control did everything they could to escalate tensions. Equipped with weapons, vehicles, and uniforms more suited to an urban war zone than to keeping a watchful eye on a peaceful demonstration, the police on site in Ferguson leveled machine guns at the unarmed crowd from the top of an armored personnel carrier. Some journalists were arrested for no reason. Others were victimized by carefully placed tear gas canisters, only to have officers move in to dismantle their equipment. Protesters themselves were shot with rubber bullets and assaulted. Some observers were hit with tear gas just for daring to observe the protests from their own backyards.

Nightly scenes of militarized police confronting unarmed protesters continued until this past Thursday, when Gov. Jay Nixon finally moved in and gave the Missouri Highway Patrol supervision over the scene. The policing force ditched war machines, camouflage and riot masks, and treated the crowds to hugs and conversation rather than tear gas and rubber bullets.

The killing of Brown, which was completely unjustified according to every eyewitness, as well as the provocation from a militarized police force, drew reaction from both the left and the right. On the left, the incidents served as yet another reminder that our country has a racist present and not just a racist past, and provided the strongest example yet of the dangerous consequences of militarizing our police force. With the notable exception of Rand Paul, the right instead sought to blame the victim and lecture the black community for assuming that the police were in the wrong. But one political faction that has been noticeably silent? Supporters of the Second Amendment.

More below the fold.

Supporters of the Second Amendment believe that public carrying of guns is the ultimate defense against oppression, whether personal or systemic. When schoolchildren are massacred, gun fetishists tend to argue that the problem was not that a violent person had access to weapons of mass murder, but that a "good guy with a gun" was not present to start a confrontation. This self-defense argument is not just limited to self-defense against other private citizens; rather, a common argument for the proliferation of firearms involves defense against oppression by government entities. A common line of argument for gun rights activists is that gun control is a prerequisite of genocide: that if, for instance, Armenians and Jews had been allowed to arm themselves, then the respective genocides that both peoples endured would not have been possible. They have even gone so far as to co-opt Martin Luther King Jr. and claim that he would have supported arming blacks to defend against centuries of oppression at the hands of slaveowners and subsequent generations of white supremacists.

These activists don't limit their advocacy to theoretical arguments about history, but even praise and advocate for armed intervention against government in the present day. Perhaps the best known recent example is that of Cliven Bundy, the Nevada rancher who has taken advantage of public lands without paying for the privilege. When the Bureau of Land Management attempted to take possession of his herd as recompense for the seven figures in taxes he owed, members of armed militia trained their weapons on these federal officials and forced them to back down to prevent bloodshed. And despite what seemed like egregious violations of law, Bundy and his merry band of militiamen were hailed as anti-tax, pro-liberty, right-wing heroes—until, at least, Bundy decided he needed to "tell us something about the Negro."

This racism, of course, isn't a bug. It's a feature. Despite advocating post mortem for arming black people as a recourse for situations long past, there does not seem to be the same enthusiasm for ensuring the same access today. As digby wrote in the aftermath of the murder (in everything but name, at least) of Trayvon Martin:

Think about it. Every other situation in which an innocent person gets gunned down there is a cacophony of gun nuts screeching that if only this person had been armed he could have defended himself. It's been the basis of every concealed and open carry argument for the last couple of decades.

And yet, in this case, nothing. No impassioned appeals for loosening the gun laws so that ordinary Americans could go to the store in the evening to buy some candy and an iced tea without getting stalked and shot by some unhinged vigilante. No solemn op-eds about the dangers for average Americans when venturing unarmed into the streets of their own neighborhoods. No fiery speeches from Wayne LaPierre insisting that if only everyone in the neighborhood had been armed with submachine guns they could have run outside and started firing immediately upon hearing the screams for help. Nada. Why do you suppose that is?

There were no gun rights activists standing up for Trayvon Martin. There will be no gun rights activists standing up for Michael Brown, or for the numerous protesters who had their civil rights violated by the heavy-handed tactics of the militarized police. In the moment, these activists feel that Second Amendment rights and remedies only exist to defend white tax cheats against government officials. But unarmed black teenagers killed for doing nothing other than walking down the street in their own neighborhoods? The gun nuts may stand up for them eventually, but only when decades or centuries have ground these incidents into a more dispassionate historical lens.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 04:30 PM PDT.

Also republished by Firearms Law and Policy.

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Comment Preferences

    •  Redstate already covered this: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      user23
      http://www.redstate.com/...
      They don't like the militarized police either, but they serve as the perfect reason why everybody should be carrying guns. Causa' the Ferguson PD. sighhhhhhh.

      "I did not have sex with that bridge"

      by Scottsdalian on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 07:42:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  RIP Black Panthers (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bruddaone

        You don't see reasonable people pushing for "second amendment remedies" in these sorts of situations because calling for violence tends to get one in trouble and is in many cases illegal, with good reason.

        However, our rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness do in fact stop functioning until someone capable of levering greater force than we decides they should stop functioning. As a nation, we have decided that the best bet is to make the entity known as the state the one that carries such force. We've set things up in such a way to where the state has the monopoly on legitimate violence. Welcome to the result.

        I'd be the first to get behind a campaign to end racism, religious bigotry, and any other form of intolerance, but you can't get rid of those. Only so many hearts and minds can be won because some of those hearts and minds are sick and warped, look at the Republican Party for exhibit A. Sometimes, you can't reason with people. Sometimes you can't talk people down, at least not before they wreak an incredible amount of damage. In these cases, being armed might just save your life.

        I don't believe the second amendment was meant for fighting government tyranny, but if someone wants to kill you, you have three choices; run, talk, or kill them first. When the other guy is tenacious and unwilling to listen to reason, you might find yourself limited to just one option, at which point you have to ask yourself if sticking with a nonviolent approach is worth the price.

        Take this incident as a warning; any time they want, the police can kill you, without warning, and for no reason. Being white gives you a pretty decent chance of not getting chosen for this honor but it does not make you immune.

        To bring it back to the actual incident, I expect something like this to continue to happen every 50-100 years or so until some form of the Black Panthers, or someone who follows in the footsteps of John Brown butchers the whole lot of the would-be slavers. Certainly not the kind of work I would want to be involved in though. Too much risk of getting killed/jailed due to lack of support. Then again, I'm white so as long as I watch my ass I likely don't have anything to worry about.

        •  Guns aren't much use in an armed hold-up (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          user23, TheFern, kfunk937

          I've been held up at gun-point twice. It wouldn't have happened had I been carrying a gun in my hand with the safety off, but you can't walk around that way. In the first hold-up in Washington DC, the gunman asked me why I was looking at his face and suggested I might be doing it to identify him in a mug shot, which is exactly what I did. The weapon I used against him was my brain as he held the muzzle against my head. Common street criminals are stupid or they would find a better line of work. I told the moron I was a drug dealer and had to avoid contact with the police. He took my wallet and gold watch and ordered me at gunpoint to march down an alley with my hands up, and quickly disappeared. When I identified him from a mug shot a couple of hours later, DC police found his address, but couldn't find him. A couple of weeks later, he was busted for another hold-up and the fool was wearing my gold watch. I had the serial number and it was all that was necessary to get him two years in prison.

          Ten years later I was held up at an all-night gas station in LA. The cashier was behind bulletproof glass and pretended to be asleep. This gunman was older and more professional, and held-up myself and an Arab immigrant. I still had my gold watch, but it was irritating my skin and kept it in my pocket on a watch fob. After he got our wallets, he asked about "the jewels". The Arab held up his wrist to display a cheap digital watch and the gunman lightly slapped it away in disgust. I held up my empty wrist, and then he quickly walked away. I could have had a gun in my back pocket or around an ankle, which he never checked and shot him in the back with unknown outcomes, or the gun might have raised the stakes and gotten us both killed over the $40 in my wallet. But needless to say, you can't walk around the city with a gun in your hand preparing to kill suspected anyone you think might be about to pull out a gun and rob you. A gun could be useful in an attempted home invasion, but those are rare, and we see frequent tragedies when an innocent act is mistaken for a home invasion. Industrial strength bear spray or a taser might be a better alternative, but a true gun nut looks down on those options as unmanly and unmilitary I suppose.

          •  Oh, but... (0+ / 0-)

            It would be totally military (and manly) if they had a gas mask and a button they could push that would flood their house with tear gas.

            Its harder to think with a brain when its so easy to rely on such a simple solution as a gun.

          •  Legal Vs. Illegal (0+ / 0-)

            I look down on bear spray and tasers as viable options because they're often a lot harder to legally acquire than their more lethal counter-parts. In many places you can buy 00 Buck for $5 a pop, but if you want bean bag rounds, you're SOL. Mace and tasers also don't do a whole lot against someone on PCP or meth, and you can't exactly walk around with a can of mace or a taser drawn either.

            Though, you won't hear me arguing against the notion that there are a lot of people who have access to weaponry that shouldn't, due to our current gun-culture and laws.

            •  PCP vs Mace. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kfunk937

              My father was a Chief of Police in the town were we lived, a State Trooper and dad tried to arrest a man for driving while intoxicated and vehicular assault, one night.  To their dismay the intoxicant turned out to be PCP.  It took both of them two full canisters of mace and two big burly farmers to subdue the guy, so he could be cuffed and taken to jail for the night.  On PCP he managed to break a set of hand cuffs in his fight against dad and the Trooper.  PCP is a real nasty substance, dad had to call in a couple of the reservist to sit with the guy until he sobered up the next day and he could see the judge the later in the day.

              /s/ A Proud Honorable Disabled American Veteran, 1970-1994, Combat 1991.

        •  GOP and NRA were for limits on gun rights... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kfunk937, splashy

          ...in the era of the Black Panthers.

          Reagan even signed a gun control law in California right after a group of black men appeared on the Capitol steps wearing suits, and carrying rifles.

  •  These b@stards will stand up for the rights of (36+ / 0-)

    the privileged to shoot whomever they want but stand silent when those not of their own kind lost their freedom and their lives.

    This is what our country is unless we stand for the rule of law, such a law that allows everyone to walk their own streets freely and not have to beg for their lives from police.

    My idea of the ideal GOP speech invariably involves negligent intoxication together with huffing helium for that special vocal nuance.

    by Superskepticalman on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 04:38:42 PM PDT

    •  I think you meant "these b@stards will stand up (11+ / 0-)

      for the rights of the #WhitePrivilege to shoot whomever they want....

      The addition of that single word?

      It defines their ideology AND why they have it.

      "I like paying taxes...with them, I buy Civilization"

      by Angie in WA State on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 05:56:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  How about a curfew in Clark County, Nev.? (17+ / 0-)

      Site of the Bundy ranch.

      Can you imagine what those armed thugs pointing their guns at federal police would have done if they were forced to stay inside and arrested for walking around?

      History is a guide, not a destination.

      by NCJan on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 05:59:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not so thinly disguised racism (17+ / 0-)

      is the whole raison d'etre behind the tea party and the insistent dog-whistling of the NRA and their cheerleaders as well. They're both the spawn of the KKK mentality. So they will never, ever, suggest or support the notion that black men could ever have a right to protect themselves.

      •  sorry you are wrong (0+ / 0-)

        http://www.nraila.org/...

        http://www.redstate.com/...

        http://www.old-yankee.com/...

        etc etc

        Most conservatives and liberals arent that far off on their thinking. The people in power want to keep us divided.

        •  YOU are wrong, not DocDawg. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jqb, user23, ShellyAnn1A, kfunk937

          First of all, your links are all extreme conservative websites, so they lack credibility.  You do not have any "liberal" sites linked.

          Second, I'm from Detroit, and Craig speaks about "concealed" weapons, not the "open carry" that is being argued about now and pushed down people's throats in Krogers and Targets.

          Third, the old yankee site has so many errors in fact, it would take a long time to go through them.  This is the result of only reading things that you agree with.

          The 2nd amendment issue is much more complex than the gun nuts would have anyone believe.  Further, even the statistics cited so often by these people are not always factual but rather cherry picked to show the result they want.

          I don't think anyone wants to "disarm" the American public.  We are much too far down the road for that.  But reasonable and equatable laws are needed---along with enforcing them.  And of course, you should know that all this open carry stuff is ridiculous.  And people of color will not get equal treatment in having guns, either openly or concealed.  (Even one of your sites admitted MLK couldn't get a concealed carry permit.

          •  open carry IS ridiculous (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            reasonshouldrule, kfunk937

            Im not sure what I was responding to, but Im pretty sure it was a comment about how conservatives dont want blacks to have guns because they are all racists.

            Doesnt it make more sense to post comments from conservative sites lauding law abiding blacks to buy guns to protect themselves to disprove a point that no conservatives want blacks to have guns?

            •  Yes, you are right, it does. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TheOpinionGuy, ShellyAnn1A, kfunk937

              Those sites lauding the arming of people of color, especially if they're conservative, offers a strong point.

              In practice, though, when have you ever seen a real effort by the power structure to arm African-Americans?  I'm old enough to remember the black panthers and how California whipped up a law against carrying guns as soon as the panthers showed up with them.

              I'm white, and I've seen an awful lot of unequal treatment in my day (which was a long, long time ago---think 60's).  :-)

            •  "law-abiding" blacks (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TheOpinionGuy, user23

              Which will inexorably be defined as those blacks who agree with white conservatives in all matters.  While all blacks who voted for Obama are traitors (90%+).  Which is ALREADY the dominant rhetoric on the Right (Romney's 47% speech).

              Sounds like those Confederate apologists who talk about slaveowners who so trusted their slaves that they let them carry guns to accompany them into battle.  I guess this is the kind of African-American they want "restored" when they have their country "restored" to them.

              And it's also bull** because now even Fox News buys into the Cliven Bundy line that personal guns are meant to overthrow a "bad" government - but if blacks think the government supported by whites is bad, do you seriously pretend that they can afford the big-buck Pentagon-style weaponry that both the police and the white "enthusiasts" stockpile?

              A black militia will never be treated like a white militia because blacks are not considered true Americans.  Where were you when the Black Panthers were being exterminated by a Federal/state/local conspiracy?

            •  This is the post you were commenting on (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              the autonomist

              "Not so thinly disguised racism is the whole raison d'etre behind the tea party and the insistent dog-whistling of the NRA and their cheerleaders as well. They're both the spawn of the KKK mentality. So they will never, ever, suggest or support the notion that black men could ever have a right to protect themselves."

              The post does not contain the word "conservative". It included extreme conservative groups such as Tea, NRA and KKK.

              If you think the first of those groups represent the long tradition of conservatism and are not simply hijacked by the third group (and fellow travelers) then you are part of the problem. I personally find conservatism to be a completely legit philosophy and I think it is needed to temper liberal idealism. Sometimes we liberals need someone to say, "slow down, think it through". What we don't need is all-out obstruction (and dog whistles) which is what is passing for "conservatism" today.

              •  Agreed there are many extremist right groups (0+ / 0-)

                However, I voted for obama twice even though Im a hardcore conservative. The republican party is broken. I thought they were getting the message about fiscal conservatism, but they are clearly just pretending.

                They are social conservatives in more extremist packaging (they didnt get the right message) and are giving lip service to fiscal conservatism.

                I would rather vote for the party that at least says they are going to overspend, rather than a bunch of liars who claim they are going to be fiscally conservative and then spend like crazy.

                If we are going to overspend, I would rather it be on infrastructure than bombs to blow up other people's infrastructure.

            •  Contemporary *conservatism* is racist (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kfunk937

              at its core.  Commentary your have made elsewhere is clear evidence of this.

              "Trust me... I've been right before." ~ Tea party patriot

              by Calvino Partigiani on Mon Aug 18, 2014 at 09:07:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I agree. (0+ / 0-)

            I agree with what you said and I am one of those so called 2nd Amendment and gun owning nuts, as the anti-gun lobby likes to call us.  The best point you made is that the laws concerning weapons violations and crimes committed with a firearm need to be enforced more and with tougher sentences applied when found guilty.  To include the lose of the guilty person's 2nd Amendment rights.

            God bless those who keep and seek peace.

            /s/ A Proud Honorable Disabled American Veteran, 1970-1994, Combat 1991.

    •  sorry but they stand up for blacks owning guns (0+ / 0-)

      they cheered when the chief police of detroit encouraged ordinary citizens of detroit to arm themselves.

      Im sorry the reality doesnt match with your hatred of the right.

      And yes there are many racists on the right so please no need to find posts from racist conservatives.

      There is rampant racism on the left too. (racism is human nature)

      •  Who are "they"? (4+ / 0-)

        If you are talking Detroiters, yes, THEY cheered when Craig recommended arming themselves.  Nobody else cheered, though.

        And no, there is not "rampant" racism on the left.  By definition, the left's agenda is more inclusive and less full of bigots than the right's.  This attempt to spread out blame is getting tiresome.

      •  American Racism was constructed by business (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        the autonomist

        Racism, as opposed to prejudice, is institutionalized and ideological.  No legal documents in the first half century of the English colonies in America mentioned a white race.  The rich elite had white indentured servants to exploit.  Even African captives were classed as indentured, which meant if they survived to freedom they could vote in local elections.  All of this rapidly changed after Bacon's Rebellion in 1676, which endangered the entire investment project in Virginia.  Sweeping legal and social changes converted the rebellious white servants into the free henchman class beating a vast new importation of black slaves.  It was just like what happened after Reconstruction.  Same ruling class, same pattern.  Same profits.  That's capitalism.

        Thus the very concept of Southern culture and tradition - the things conservatives always claim to be defending - was actually social engineering by greedy London investors and their colonial entrepreneurs to support a monstrous crime.  Worse, my ancestors agreed to this deal with the devil to obtain their own freedom from bondage.  So much of our subsequent behavior - our worship of private property, limited government, inequality and guns - fits into this f*cked-up Stanford Prison Experiment of a social order that clearly American conservatism would look completely different in an alternate history that had no slavery.

        It is absurd to say that any such conspiracy, at such a foundational moment for our society, was carried out by blacks or Latinos or leftists.

        See Theodore Allen's "The Invention of the White Race" Volume Two for the legal chronology.

      •  This is a pathetic and disgusting attempt to (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        the autonomist, TheFern, tubaguy

        normalize racism:

        racism is human nature
        Even worse, I bet you actually believe that.  

        In that sense I'll give you credit, that you give voice to what conservatives actually believe, rather than pretending that conservatism at its core does not accept racism.  

        "Trust me... I've been right before." ~ Tea party patriot

        by Calvino Partigiani on Mon Aug 18, 2014 at 04:56:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I would argue there is a good reason for this. (48+ / 0-)

    Not all, but the majority of the gun enthusiasts, especially the non-hunting self-defense types, stockpile their guns because they are afraid of people like Michael Brown.

    They have all kinds of code words that they use: thugs, gangbangers, etc.

    Others join militias because they say they want to "fight tyranny" Interesting how that intensified when a black man became president.

    "If you don't sin, then Jesus died for nothing!" (on a sign at a Mardi Gras parade in New Orleans)

    by ranger995 on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 04:39:22 PM PDT

    •  Yes, but they also use them on policemen! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ahianne

      The Radical Right gunslingers (not your garden variety hunting' shotgun owners) are always talking about a REVOLUTION, which has increased vastly since police departments have armed themselves.
      Agree that the anti-government talk OPENLY increased since the election of Obama.

      •  actually was pretty intense under Clinton (9+ / 0-)

        That's when a bunch of these "militias" sprung up, or at least became very public, and we also of course had McVeigh, the Ruby Ridge and Waco fiasco, "black helicopter" conspiracies, etc. But as soon as comforting numbskull right-winger Dubya was elected, all was right with the world for these morons, and nary a peep for 8 years, all while he actually DID put in place some pretty scary shit (Patriot Act, NSA, DHS) that would have made them lose their minds just years earlier with a Dem President. They're so transparent it's not even funny, but they are allowed to get away with it, and as soon as they've become toxic, rebrand as the "Tea Party"!! Thanks MSM!!

  •  Hypocrites. Very simple. (31+ / 0-)

    The persons who most need to defend themselves from government tyranny are people of color (blacks, Native Americans, Hispanics) and women (systematic violence and threat against women).  In principle gun fetishists could concede that.  What's fascinating, I think, is that they deny the practical upshot of such a position: that white supremacy remains the rule in the US, not a vestigial holdover from "back then"; and that patriarchy, as a political system, is a reality that threatens and disadvantages women.

    So their (the gun fetishists') logic points toward the need, not for white men, but for women and persons of color to be armed with a view to self-defense, because our social system remains systemically racist and sexist (which they deny).

    Steely Dan has a great album called Pretzel Logic.  It seems fitting here.

    "It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us in trouble. It's the things we know that ain't so." (Artemus Ward)

    by Silencio on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 04:40:18 PM PDT

  •  The militia at the Bundy ranch had automatic (60+ / 0-)

    rifles pointed and ready to fire at federal agents and not only were they not blown away on the spot, they actually WON!!! Not a single person went to jail, and Cliven Bundy and his merry band of tax-dodgers is still grazing cattle on federal land for free. The feds left.

    Fast-forward to Ferguson MO. Unarmed black people link arms and form a human wall in protest, and the Ferguson PD brings out equipment that veterans of Iraq have said on Twitter they never had access to in a war zone. THIS is America, this is what we stand for, this is how we operate. It's not debatable, a black life is worth less than a white life.

    There are no second amendment rights for African-americans. Look back at the photos of a bunch of white douchebags parading around Chipolte and Target with automatic rifles strapped on their backs. And this is IN THE WAKE of the shooting that took place in a Wal-Mart by the WHITE anti-government couple that resulted in the deaths of two cops and a customer. And these people didn't even so much get a glance from the police. However, BLACK man is holding a toy air rifle in the aisle of a Wal-Mart and is SHOT TO DEATH right there in the store. I've had more than enough of this. This country is a fucking joke.

    America... just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable.

    by jjstraka34 on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 04:48:03 PM PDT

    •  That could be taken as an argument (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lightarty, Chi, TheOpinionGuy, Utahrd

      That blacks would get more accomplished if they aggressively asserted their Second Amendment rights.  If the tactics being used now don't end up working, it would certainly make sense to explore other options.

      •  Do you really think that is what would happen? (10+ / 0-)

        Do you think if african-americans confronted police with weapons that they would suddenly get treated with great respect and be magically granted equality? How many do you think would die in the firestorm of military weapons that the cops would bring to bear?

        If anything, it would be used as justification for racism. Would that be unfair? Of course. Would it accomplish any good? I don't know. I would hate to see the carnage, and I'm pretty sure there would be some.

        •  It wouldn't be a bloodless struggle (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          newliberl, cowdab

          But I wouldn't propose taking the option of the table because of that.  Even if I never intend to use it, leaving it out there as something to be talked about might have some value.

        •  You are right. This is a silly NRA argument. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kfunk937

          If blacks or immigrants or women did anything like this to arm themselves and parade around  there would be their blood  spattered everywhere. Go further and the government would teach them that silly arguments about defending against their government would get an extremely powerful military directed at them.  Oh yeah we can beat them drones we pay for and are being brought hone to enforce the elites and the racists POV.

          I keep several guns for hunting and for home defense (to be used only if some breaks in). I oppose all this crap that seems to be the result of white males trying to shore up their self beneficial view of the world. Similar to what many use their religion for. Recreating and editing its sacred writings. Carefully interpreting writings to back their need to control and abuse.

          Are we the only ones who do this? NO! But as long as the arms race keeps escalating we will never stop. It angers me to hear these people create then use the result as an excuse to keep getting worse.  Just to give them a feeling of safety in a world they made that sees them as foul abusers and deaf to the cries of thier victims.

          Fear is the Mind Killer...

          by boophus on Mon Aug 18, 2014 at 01:03:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It's worked before...n/t (0+ / 0-)
      •  I'll tell you one thing... (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mmacdDE, aitchdee, TheOpinionGuy, kfunk937

        ...if you want fast restrictions on the Second Joke, ahem, Amendment, just try arming blacks.  Conservatives will be falling all over themselves to pass laws.  Just check Reagan, the Mulford Act, and the Black Panthers in California in the 1967 if you don't think so.

        Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power -- Benito Mussolini

        by drcraigphd on Mon Aug 18, 2014 at 09:11:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  They walked away. If that's a win - no deaths - (6+ / 0-)

      ... for them, so be it.

      Bundy & Co. will not win, in the end. They are lawless, but life is a higher value, much as we all would like to have shown 'em.

      2014 is HERE. Build up the Senate. Win back the House : 17 seats. Plus!

      by TRPChicago on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 05:31:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  As they've proved... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Alhambra, aitchdee

        "life is a higher value" provided it's a white life. Black life? Not so much.

        •  Michael Brown will help turn this corner. (8+ / 0-)

          The pictures of white people walking with black people are a powerful message to other white people of good will.

          Together, we will overcome, I am convinced of it. Not everywhere, not everyone, not right away. But a life is a life.

          2014 is HERE. Build up the Senate. Win back the House : 17 seats. Plus!

          by TRPChicago on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 06:48:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I hope you're right (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            redbaron, cowdab

            but have to admit I'm not so sure. I would have thought that 21 kids being slaughtered in their school would have had a huge impact on the debate over gun rights. Apparently, it didn't. Time will tell.

            •  Agreed. Our hopes for each other are aspirational, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              reflectionsv37

              ... but this mournful business in Ferguson has gone viral, thanks to persistent coverage by bloggers and some of the media. We are seeing inhumanity inflicted on innocent people.

              It is a story that will persist, even beyond the killing. We may show our anger different ways but the grief of people of good will is universal.

              (I agree with you on guns and violence. That's another kind of issue. Legislative energy was required and it was sapped in the short term by artful lobbying. I don't believe Ferguson is such a case. It is, however, up to us to see that it's not dismissed as an aberration.)

              2014 is HERE. Build up the Senate. Win back the House : 17 seats. Plus!

              by TRPChicago on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 07:58:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Sadly, we won't see the value... (0+ / 0-)

          .. in the life of a minority, until a bunch of armed and resolute white guys stand up in their defense and say "OK We've Had Quite Enough Of That."

          Until that point, the Status Quo would just assume that "those folks are gettin' uppity" and then go use all their anti-riot equipment they got lying around.

          Sadly, I doubt any of the Open Carry yahoos would be that interested in defending Ferguson from the cops.  They'd probably volunteer to man the MRAP's tho'.

          If your sole and entire rationale for doing something is "It's not illegal." then perhaps you should rethink doing it.

          by dcnblues on Mon Aug 18, 2014 at 01:47:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Occupy wasn't spared (0+ / 0-)

            The previous great example of out-of-control police was in the suppression of Occupy movements, which the media stereotyped as white even though the video I've seen from NYC paints quite a different picture.  Point is, the police didn't care.  A white leftist is seen as a traitor to his race, thus practically a ni**er-lover.

            Certainly if Occupy had been armed it would have been met with airstrikes and full-auto free-fire zones.

          •  Selfishness (0+ / 0-)

            Yeah, open carry nuts probably wouldn't stand up for beleaguered black folk. Even more sensible people probably wouldn't, at least not violently, because there isn't enough support behind such an action. Way way way back in the day when muskets were military issue one person could inflict a lot more damage single-handedly, it would have been feasible for a disorganized few to use force to fight against this. Sadly, all people can do now is protect themselves and their loved ones.

            Though, trying to fight against the police force with even a large number of organized individuals is somewhat of a pipe dream. Too much force to resist.

    •  I really can't think of better timing to begin... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      VPofKarma, BlueZone, Alhambra, cowdab

      the arrests of the Bundy militia. It would be very difficult for the 2nd amendment group to scream to loudly about the oppression of those law abiding, gun toting militia members that stood down the federal government with the back drop of Ferguson on the same television screen.

      But in reality, I'm not really sure any of those gun toters will be brought to justice. At some point, they'll get their money from Clive Bundy, or a negotiated settlement, but I seriously doubt the others will ever be charged for their crimes.

    •  Strange Fruit (0+ / 0-)

      While in full agreement with jjstraka34's observations, I fear that without the federal government in Democratic hands, life for any of us that differs from the "norm" would be worse in every respect. A tragedy would be worse than a joke.

      Dr. King leads us to progress, however slowly; violence as a response to injustice would only invigorate the oppressors as it erased their shame and guilt and provide them in their own minds the rationalizations of self-defense and deterrence for escalated repression.

      No matter how grievous the provocation, both the ends and the means must be righteous and just.

    •  Point of Correction (0+ / 0-)

      I don't disagree with any of this. It's all true, save for one thing I feel should be clarified. Air rifles aren't toys. They're not as lethal as a standard firearm for sure, but toys they are not.

  •  through all of this, (10+ / 0-)

    gun rights remain dispassionately unaffected in the free market of gun sales and apparently within Ferguson, the only shots fired other than rifle grenade launchers were by civilians in a drive-by shooting of a civilian


    For the past two days, Steve King has been “unbelievably busy” at his gun store, Metro Shooting at 11434 St. Charles Rock Road. King said business spiked 50 percent as local residents respond to the violent events taking place in Ferguson.
    “We’ve sold a variety of handguns, shotguns and AR-15s (a semi-automatic rifle),” King said. “All of the sales are having to do with home defense.”
    King, who owns the store that has 17 employees and 2013 revenue of about $2 million, added that customers have ranged from new firearm buyers to those upgrading their current arsenal. He said both black and white individuals have purchased firearms at his store over the past few days.

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "If we appear to seek the unattainable, then let it be known that we do so to avoid the unimaginable." (@eState4Column5)

    by annieli on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 04:48:50 PM PDT

    •  Armed police are good example to... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GunGriffin

      fearful Republicans, who have fantasies of being able to defend their Castle with handguns, etc. but most are incompetent - it's just a fantasy used to sell guns.

      Check the bumper stickers outside gun shops - overwhelmingly Republican?

  •  The 2nd Amendment is used by the (11+ / 0-)

    rightwing gun nut crowd to try and legitimize their deep obsession with guns and violence.  

    The guns and the violence, in other words, represent their underlying 'cause' and concern.

    Combine that with the racism of the right, and they're on the side of the militarized, mostly white, police, since they have the guns and are violent.

    "Trust me... I've been right before." ~ Tea party patriot

    by Calvino Partigiani on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 04:51:11 PM PDT

  •  Well, the Armenians Were Armed (6+ / 0-)

    At least some of them were, the ones involved in an insurgency against the Ottoman Turks. Obviously, the response that took out most of my grandfather's family was a bit heavy handed to say the least.

    And as the song and dance begins, the children play at home with needles, needles and pins.

    by The Lone Apple on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 04:51:44 PM PDT

  •  Situational "patriots" depend on… (14+ / 0-)

    …their own customized, dynamically-adjustable version of the Constitution, which they recite loudly in some cases and stick in their back pockets in others.

    Sadly, these folks apparently have no clue as to how they're perceived by those of us with two good eyes and a brain larger than a pea.

    As hypocritical frauds.




    Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ Garcia

    by DeadHead on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 04:52:21 PM PDT

  •  The "Second Amendment" folks don't care (11+ / 0-)

    ...at best. But of course many of us could tell you that. This is how I know those people stockpiling weapons are completely full of it. It's really just to protect them against imaginary fears of a great brown horde overrunning their cache and they get to take them down Dirty-Harry style.

    Look at how silent these clowns were when the Patriot Act was passed. In Bush v. Gore (though I guess they were on the Bush side; that's probably why). Any other time a minority has been besieged by official (government) violence.

    They don't care about anyone except themselves, and that's another reason why I feel that any talk of these clowns of 'revolution' and 'second amendment solutions' is just wannabe keyboard warriors flapping their guns. The best they'll be able to do is rile up stochastic terrorists to commit acts of violence against minority groups or politicians of the 'wrong' persuasion. That's it.

    And to think they're all worried about 'gun grabbers' and 'Illuminati' and whatever conspiracy theory they have coming. I wonder how they could tie this into a conspiracy theory that says the 'gummit' is coming for their guns.

    Oh well. Bottom line, they are NOT coming to your aid, black folks. The 2nd Amendment fetishists, much like a large swath of America, simply do not care about you.

  •  There are still McVeighs in this country (9+ / 0-)

    waiting for a race war. Let's not give it to them.

    Dick Cheney 2/14/10: "I was a big supporter of waterboarding"

    by Bob Love on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 04:54:25 PM PDT

  •  Contrary to the diary's thesis (6+ / 0-)

    Red State has argued a number of irises that the Ferguson reflects an over militarization of the police. Now they do try to blame Obama as opposed to Bush for the sale of those weapons, but I think that if Red State reflects a part of the active conservative community that we can find common ground with conservatives here on demilitarizing our officers.

    http://www.thedreammapnovel.com

    by DAISHI on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 04:56:29 PM PDT

    •  that wasn't my thesis (8+ / 0-)

      conservatives who are afraid of government overreach are opposed to the militarization of the police (people like Rand Paul, for instance).

      My thesis was that Second Amendment types point to the Second Amendment as a defense against government power for white people like Clive Bundy, but not for people like Michael Brown or the Ferguson protesters.

      These conservatives don't want government power in either case. But the difference comes in what type of people they feel have the right to arm themselves against it.

      oops. I hope the gate wasn't too expensive.

      Twitter: @DanteAtkins

      by Dante Atkins on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 05:25:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This makes clear what really drives the (9+ / 0-)

    "gun rights" movement. It's all about bringing their fantasies to life. Fantasies that involve shooting large numbers of dark-skinned people.

  •  Have to plan ahead... (8+ / 0-)

    Listen to The After Show & The Justice Department on Netroots Radio. Join us on The Porch Tue & Fri at Black Kos, all are welcome!

    by justiceputnam on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 04:58:27 PM PDT

  •  Gun owners are mostly Republicans (13+ / 0-)

    Party Identity of Gun Cabinet

    Their party platform sets the stage.  And the NRA political contributions are another data point.

    Since the Southern Strategy the GOP has become the party of racists.

    So both trends go together and reinforce each other.

    It is natural that they would say nothing after the murder by cop of an African America.

    Have any prominent Dem politicians said anything about Ferguson other than Elizabeth Warren?

    The contrast between Rand Paul and Hillary Clinton re Ferguson is concerning.

    Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action. UID: 9742

    by Shockwave on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 04:59:27 PM PDT

  •  Clinging to their guns out of fear (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Silencio, Rashaverak, Chi, Ahianne, boophus

    It seems that in the "mind" (and I use the term loosely) of the right wing, the most hated and oppressive thing the government can do - and the thing that they need to rise up in arms against - is to take money from the "deserving" and give it to the "undeserving."  (Hint, the undeserving tend to have a common continental origin.). So, no, the gun nuts don't want to arm the very people they are so afraid of.  They are afraid of "others" and they feel so strongly that the government should not help others that they are willing to delude themselves into thinking that their guns will cow the government into not helping the others.  And if need be, they can replace the government violently.

    But the last thing they would ever want is for the others to be armed themselves - even with toy guns, evidently.  And they don't want them to even be represented (gerrymandering, anti-voting laws).

    There is a brilliant article on deadspin: America is not for black people.

  •  Conservatives argued FOR gun control (16+ / 0-)

    When it was African-American "agitators" who wanted to arm themselves in the 1960s.

    http://www.salon.com/...

    The nation’s white political elite feared that violence was too prevalent and there were too many people—especially urban Black nationalists—with access to guns. In May 1967, two dozen Black Panther Party members walked into the California Statehouse carrying rifles to protest a gun-control bill, prompting then-Gov. Ronald Reagan to comment, “There’s no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons.”

  •  Constitution Says 2nd Amend Is For Killing Bundys (8+ / 0-)

    US Constitution

    Congress has the power mobilize the militia to suppress insurrections.

    The Second Amendment is there so that the federal government can suppress people like Bundy, not enable them.

    Article 1
    Section. 8.

    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

    To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

    To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

    To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

    To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

    To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

    To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

    To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

    To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

    To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

    To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

    To provide and maintain a Navy;

    To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

    To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

    Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

    by bernardpliers on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 05:16:42 PM PDT

    •  That is consistent with 2d Amendment (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ahianne

      Which says that the WELL-ORDERED MILITIA can be armed - not EVERY fearful white man!
      Of course, this was to put down SLAVE rebellions, so not much as changed!
      Are our police now "militia?"

      •  The Slave Rebellion Thing Is A Myth (0+ / 0-)

        It's really a brazenly anti-intellectual  poke in the eye with a blunt stick. The Tom Hartmann column was crazy-ass woo, because he was describing the period when America was involved in the French-Indian War, which was part of a world war between the French and British empires.  This is the conflict  from "Last Of The Mohicans"

        See comments here

        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

        by bernardpliers on Mon Aug 18, 2014 at 09:57:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Thus Sheriff Bernabe's response to 'civil unrest'. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kfunk937

      From the Redford flick "The Milagro Beanfield War":

      When a crowd forms in front of the State Police HQ to protest the incarceration of a local farmer, he hollers out:

      "I hereby deputize everyone for crowd control duty!"

      Basically he asked the demonstrators to police themselves (and gave them authority equal to the state police officers across the highway in the process.)  

      Dumb? Smart?  Probably wouldn't work outside of a movie script anyway.

      If your sole and entire rationale for doing something is "It's not illegal." then perhaps you should rethink doing it.

      by dcnblues on Mon Aug 18, 2014 at 01:56:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  terrorists as victims (4+ / 0-)

    The Christian terrorists have really put the screws to what the US government can do.  Though they murder women, kill children, it the governement that gets blamed.  Eric Rudolph was under the christian peoples protection for years, he murdered doctors, killed an innocent women at the Olympics, and when he was eventually brought was given a plea deal to placate the Christians who believed everything he did was in name of the almighty.  The raid back in Waco back in 1993 where the christian terrorists killed all their children was seen by other christians as governement overreach, not the armed resistance of common criminals to the serving of a legal warrant.  It was the same thing at the YFZ ranch where there was good evidence that young children were being molested.

    I mean if there is warrant for the police to search a house for drugs, and the people in the house kill all the police, those people are not seen as heroes, even if there were no drugs in the house.  Most of us know that we have to surrender to warrants and searches.  If some dude is pulled over by the police, we don't treat him as a hero if kills the officer do we?  We don't treat him as a hero if he holds a gun to his baby and demands to be let go?  yet when christian terrorists do this, it is treated as reasonable and rational behavior.

    So when federal officers went o Bundy's ranch, what could they do?  We have ample evidence that people like Bundy are willing to murder officers and children to get their way. Unfortunately we have to accept that serving a warrant is not worth the life of a child.

    She was a fool, and so am I, and so is anyone who thinks he sees what God is doing. -Kurt Vonnegut Life is serious but we don't have to be - me

    by lowt on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 05:20:10 PM PDT

  •  the second (0+ / 0-)

    amendment only applies to white citizens, people of color don't have equal rights although most members here know that, its too bad more in america don't realize it.

  •  Uh I thought the Bundy Ranch guys (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boophus

    Were actually organizing a trip to Ferguson for just that reason.

  •  Its a trust thing (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BlueZone

    if people inherently believe someone is trustworthy (or maybe a better phrase is some one they can relate to), they will not only overlook factual fault and magnify factual virtue, they will tend to create extra-factual virtuousness and decry the collective sins of those they perceive to be against the person they relate to.

    We are taught by each other and a media that relies on a never ending polarization of any issue, hence our sorry state of race un-relations.

    You can add the reality of a an American Culture ( as defined by the ones who are in power and have the megaphone within that group at any given time in American history), that practices open and overt racism, sexism and class-ism in various forms, until said actions are deemed inappropriate at which point the actions are suddenly stopped and hidden away, no longer mentioned in polite company etc.

     Think about sundown towns, redlining, gender pay gaps, forced re-education of native populations, etc We never deal with the ramifications of these policies, and expect the victims to "get over it", since that majority culture has decided its no longer "what they do".

  •  It's simple. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    richardvjohnson, Ahianne

    The NRA knows its base is largely (but not exclusively, I feel it necessary to point out) racist white men.

    The NRA thusly is stuck between alienating the racism of its base by coming out for arming the people of Ferguson, or alienating the ammosexuality of its base by coming out for the police.

    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

    by raptavio on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 05:39:25 PM PDT

  •  Sooner or later (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    richardvjohnson, redbaron

    One of these events will occur, and instead of standing around being tear gassed there will be a second amendment response from the friends, relatives, etc. of some decedent.

    I do not know when.  I suspect sooner than many readers think.  These events are terrible, and thanks to modern electronics everyone gets to see them on their TV and computer screens.

    The victim being a well-known local personage rather than a little-known young man might cross the line.

    It will not be pretty.  

    Restore the Fourth! Save America!

    by phillies on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 05:46:42 PM PDT

  •  Equal rights under the law (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Chi, dsmyre, RockyMtnLib, Ahianne

    The ability of whites like me (regardless how crazy) to openly carry firearms when it is impossible for nonwhites to safely do the same thing strikes me as a perfect measure of how far we are as a society from the goal of equal rights under the law and what direction we are heading.  I hoped that Obama's election signaled that we had crossed MLK's mountain.  I eagerly anticipated living in a land where the content of a person's character was more important than the color of their skin.  However, the election simply strengthen the resolve of those who could not stomach that kind of world.   And they are driving events in order to drag us down the mountain and away from our goal.  I'm very sad because I don't know how to reverse this trend.  

  •  I stood up (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ban nock, Jo Bob, bruddaone, Utahrd

    I stood up. Almost immediately afterwards, I commented here on DK that ALL Americans should arm themselves. IMO, if the majority of Americans were armed, we'd see less militarization of police being aggressive. Instead of acknowledging that some 2A advocates support arming the masses, I was called an asshole by a cowardly member here, several days after my post.  The news stated the local gun shops near Ferguson saw their business increase by 400% after this incident. Many buyers were minorities and first time gun owners. People are finally getting it, that police aren't here to protect and serve us. That responsibility, right or wrong, falls on ourselves. Why would I leave my security up to a group of people who not only don't want to do it, but consider themselves our opponents/enemies?

    •  This was proven last night, (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Chi, bruddaone, Utahrd

      when the police just stood by and watched a store get looted because they didn't want to risk injury to THEMSELVES.  During the L A riots, Korean shop owners were left to protect their business when the police deemed it unsafe for them to be in the area.

       photo ko_zps6a52152a.jpg

    •  Maybe put up a sign on house (0+ / 0-)

      ARMED HOMEOWNER
      It would scare away the casual burglar and slow down the no-knock police with their oh-so-sexy battering ram!

    •  what your advocating is basically (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ahianne, kfunk937

      open war in our cities and "brown" areas. You honestly think police are going to get LESS likely to gun down brown people when they think there is a good chance they are armed??? And then people around the one gunned down are supposed to take "2nd amendment measures" and smoke the cop? And thus starts a bloody feedback loop, so yay for that! Good call!

      •  Can't have it both ways (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bruddaone, DarthMeow504

        Can't slam 2nd amendment advocates for not suggesting everyone be armed (like this diary does), then slam those that do suggest it.

        •  ummm, sure can (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          boophus, kfunk937

          It is pointing out how the "2nd amendment solutions" clearly aren't advocated for for "everyone", and at least I can still maintain that arming everyone is about as brain-dead of an idea as you can have, while noting the hypocrisy of gun nuts not advocating this as a solution for "all" people.

        •  Blacks with guns aren't treated like whites (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kfunk937

          What will you do when whites simply buy bigger guns to intimidate blacks?  You act as though the police are not a reflection of the voters behind their bosses - who love government when it oppresses those they hate, and hate government and call for its overthrow when it "coddles criminals".

          Of course, you might enjoy the Yugoslavian solution, where the Swiss-style militia split into ethnic armies and then did what came naturally.

      •  .... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kfunk937

        "...You honestly think police are going to get LESS likely to gun down brown people when they think there is a good chance they are armed??? ..."

        Yes, check your history....

      •  Not About Checks (0+ / 0-)

        Well, they can't gun anyone down if someone else guns them down first. And that feedback loop will eventually stop once you wipe out everyone who would retaliate on the enemy side.

        I doubt it will ever come to that, and sincerely hope it wouldn't, but what if it's either that, or Ferguson for the rest of our lives?

  •  There's a reason for mass incarceration of blac... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dsmyre, richardvjohnson, boophus

    There's a reason for mass incarceration of black men and once they slap the felon label on people it makes it much tougher to own a gun. This is no coincidence. However, the rwnutters in no way would ever relax these rules for black men, but white, suburban 'good guys' many also felons..

  •  That's a logical fallacy about the Jews (3+ / 0-)

    of Germany prior to World War 2. German firearms laws allowed citizens to own registered firearms. The passage of the Nuremberg Laws in 1935 prohibited Jews from owning firearms since they were no longer considered German citizens. Later around 1937 or 1938 German law made it easier for citizens to own firearms. So after 1935 Jews were ordered to surrender any firearms they may have previously owned and they were forbidden to own any going forward.

    The problem with small town police is they can't compete on salary with bigger municipalities so they end up hiring any warm body that can pass the civil service exam and a drug screen. Too many clowns on the right think they are immune to police brutality. The fact is it can happen to anyone.

    Knowledge is Power. Ignorance is not bliss, it is suffering. If you like hypocrite Obama, you'll love hypocrite Hillary.

    by harris stein on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 06:02:11 PM PDT

  •  Superb post, Dante. (0+ / 0-)

    We have to keep pointing out the hypocrisy and what lays beneath it to the light of day.

    Thank you so much.

    There is something in us that refuses to be regarded as less than human. We are created for freedom - Archbishop Desmond Tutu

    by Onomastic on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 06:03:47 PM PDT

    •  It would be even better if he'd fix the title (0+ / 0-)

      Whatever you think of him, the name of the scofflaw in Nevada ought to be spelled properly.

      It's Cliven Bundy. Not "Clive."

      This diary has been sitting on the front page for going on 2 hours now with the misspelling prominent in the title.

      That needs to be fixed pronto.

      If we can't accurately reproduce something that was all over every news feed on the goddamn planet just a couple of months ago, we look like a bunch of idiots.

      The bumpersticker I want: THE LEFT IS RIGHT! THE RIGHT IS WRONG! THE FAR RIGHT IS FAR WRONG!

      by Uncle Cosmo on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 06:26:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Where's Wayne La Pierre and Second Amendment (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    reflectionsv37, antirove, Ahianne, a2nite

    supporters when something like Ferguson happens? No where to be found. Why?

    Curiously, observes Francis Wilkinson in Bloomberg View, gun-rights advocates have not used the confrontation in Ferguson as an example of a situation where possession of a gun might have protected a citizen from the illegitimate use of force by a government agent. They have not argued that Michael Brown might be alive now if he had been able to shoot back at the police officer who killed him, or that the demonstrators who fired warning shots when police tried to shut down protests would have been justified in shooting officers to defend their right to freedom of association. No such arguments have been heard with regard to any of the unarmed black men killed by American police officers over the past few years. One wonders what might account for the fact that gun-rights advocates defend the right of a white Nevada rancher to shoot agents of the Bureau of Land Management, but not the right of young black men to shoot police officers.

    In his 2013 speech Mr Beck actually argued that black men ought to buy guns to defend themselves from racist violence, decrying the fact that Martin Luther King was denied a gun permit in Alabama in 1956 "because he was considered a challenge to the people who were in control of the system." It is not clear whether Mr Beck was arguing that King should have shot police officers in Birmingham when they beat peaceful civil-rights protestors and set dogs on them. It's such an interesting lacuna, really: to argue that government officers are agents of oppression, that people should own guns to defend themselves against government oppression, that not just whites but above all blacks should recognise the need to own guns to protect oneself against government oppression, yet somehow to pass in silence over the question of whether black people should actually shoot government officers to defend themselves from oppression.

    http://www.economist.com/...

    Second Amendment as a defense against a tyrannical gov't my ass - it's all about whites using guns to keep themselves in power. If blacks did what they do, they'd call for more gun control so fast Wayne La Pierre's head would spin right off his neck.

    "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

    by We Shall Overcome on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 06:29:38 PM PDT

  •  So, perhaps, all the ANTI-2nd Amendment folks, (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jo Bob, VPofKarma, ban nock, jhop7, bruddaone

    so fed up here with the idea of the Constitutional RIGHT to own and use firearms, will tell us just which of the other 10 Amendments in the Bill of Rights they want to get rid of also.  

    Shall we start with the 1st Amendment; and, give up our Constitutional RIGHT to both freedom OF, and freedom FROM, Religion in favor of a theocracy?

    And if so, just which one of the several hundred thousands of "gods" in the image and likeness of which of the loudly braying Jackasses-in-the-Pulpit shall we then be "under", as the "god" of our allegiance to "one nation, with liberty and justice for all" - as the original Pledge of Allegiance states it.?

    Or, perhaps, we should start with the 4th Amendment, and give up our Constitutional RIGHTto "be secure in . . . persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures, et.al."  Then, of course the CONTROLERS - i.e. the Cops - can exercise whatever form of brutality, invasion, and the like they choose, without bothering to worry about such things as "warrants, due process, probable cause, et.al".  And everyone will be CONTROLED; without any more questions, problems, or human advances in the area of race, color, creed, and politics/social/economic life.

    I'm a Democrat, liberal, progressive.  I learned firearm safety some 75+ years ago, in Junior NRA; have owned and used firearms since - in a very few instances in areas of human confrontation - have never had an "accident" or instance of problem with the law; and am an individual for whom the 2nd Amendment is a part of the basic bulwark of our Nation's continued, and continuing, existence as a Representative Republic.

    Equating, discussing, or attempting to deal with "racism" and ANTI-2nd Amendment idiotology as if they were somehow linked in reality is ludicrous, beyond the merely ridiculous "apples and oranges" form of nonsensical argument and prattle for the sake of argument and prattle.

    BOTH the specious argument of, "Take away guns and the world will turn out to be a new bed of roses"; and the equally specious nonsense of, "Everyone be allowed to open carry, and show off as they please", are infantile fantasies and fictions that have neither foundation in fact, nor promise of any form of REALITY for the future.

    •  thanks for speaking up Old Grouch (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bruddaone

      I was too intimidated to say anything, I'm not a racist and resent being called one for supporting 2A.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Mon Aug 18, 2014 at 05:12:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  How about unfettered application of ALL the Bill (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      boophus, kfunk937

      of Rights, not just the Second?
        No "Free Speech Zones"
        No "No Protests after dark"
        No evicting Occupy!
        No tasing and arresting progressive questioners while applauding tea-bag hecklers.

        ...this could be a very long list.

        You want .50 cal sniper rifles and "must provide" concealed carry permits?

        Stop proselytizing the armed forces.

      •  Rights are for whites only because (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kfunk937

        I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

        by a2nite on Mon Aug 18, 2014 at 12:18:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  well, pretty much there (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      boophus, kfunk937

      As an agnostic, I certainly don't feel free FROM religion in this country, quite the opposite, it is allowed to run the joint pretty much, and not for the better. As for the 4th, we may not have police breaking down our doors without warrants, but what the NSA has done certainly makes a mockery of the 4th. None of that matters though, the point of the diary was that the hallowed 2nd Amendment is also not to be applied equally, because if the people of Ferguson started "open-carry protesting", I think we all know the result would not be pretty.

    •  Why can't it just be the 2nd? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      boophus, TheFern, kfunk937

      What you're proposing is totally a false choice.

      We could also get it down to the militia part, clarify it in a different way, or fully get rid of it.

      EVEN if you did the latter, it would go back to the states, unless another federal law was passed to ban certain types of firearms, etc, etc.

      Shades of gray, y'know.

  •  What a nation! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boophus

    So-called Patriots brandish weapons for a law breaker rancher while a young man is shot by a law enforcement officer and is sent into hiding.  It's a scary nation thanks to these law abiding(snark) citizens.  To kill someone for no apparent reason and even if he did take those stupid cigarillos there was no reason to kill him.  

    •  No, he didn't (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wishbone

      deserve to die for stealing those cigarillos, but let's not make him out to be some sweet gentle giant. He was a bully the way he manhandled that tiny shopkeeper. I don't have any respect for bullies.

      •  G-d forbid YOU should be judged and condemned by (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FogCityJohn

        the stupidest thing YOU'VE ever done.

        If it's
        Not your body,
        Then it's
        Not your choice
        And it's
        None of your damn business!

        by TheOtherMaven on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 07:31:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Bully if you believe (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        boophus

        the unvetted strip of video, which they had five days to edit.  Look out, Jo bob!  We are all on numerous videos which can be used to splice us into a crime!

        We don't know what the poor widdle shopkeeper said to Brown, so how can we judge? Shopkeepers in mostly Black areas often overcharge residents and disrespectfully follow them around even if they are not known thieves.

        I too have no respect for bullies - like Wilson! I won't even shop at a local shop with "bully" in the name.

        •  Huh? (0+ / 0-)

          We don't know what the poor widdle shopkeeper said to Brown

           You mean like "Hey, you gotta pay for that stuff"?
          Yeah, I hate when clerks demand that I pay for items from the store. I go into a rage myself.

  •  First Autopsy Report. Michael Shot Six Times (0+ / 0-)

    Autopsy report found here: http://www.nytimes.com/.... According to the report, he was shot six times. Four times in the arm and twice in the head. The fatal bullet entered the top of his skull, all other bullets struck him from the front.

    The bullets were fired from a distance (Huffington Post report wrong). No gunpowder residue was found on Michael's body.

    The report collaborates witness's accounts that Michael was shot execution style while trying to surrender.

  •  No city jobs for Blacks (0+ / 0-)

    Because the police maintain a climate of fear, it is unthinkable for any life-loving black person to DEMAND THEIR RIGHTS, like an appropriate share of Ferguson town jobs.  The police are only 10% black, the city council has only one black.  The white power structure is maintaining its power over the jobs that are paid for by BLACK tax payments!

    Please Fergusonians VOTE!

  •  Only one difference between the legal standing (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kfunk937

    in the two contrasted circumstances:
      Bundy had his day in court and lost. The action of attempting to seize his herd was a court-ordered remedy to collect his massive, illegal, decades-old debt; while he publicly vowed to continue to break all applicable laws. The attempt to apply the legal remedy was extremely costly, very dangerous, and unsuccessful due to the actions of his supporters. Therefore, all actions to block the legal remedy are federal crimes.
      The only "crime" Michael Brown committed to his killer's knowledge before initiating contact was jaywalking. Did Michael attempt to take the officer's gun? Maybe. But he had no visible weapon and was attempting to surrender when he died, after attempting to flee and being fired upon at a distance. When your community has had a member killed for an escalation following a summary offense that clearly could have been handled without a fatality, some redress of grievances and accountability should be immediately available to the community, and their rights of freedom of speech and peaceful assembly should be met with answers, not a major show of deadly force sufficient to level Fallujah.
      I believe the Feds handled Bundy appropriately, and his heirs will be floored at the massive tax liens they inherit. Just try to get your militia to fight that!
      There is to be no happy ending available in Missouri. A young man is dead. Darrel Issa could escape his criminal past. So could that rich kid who ran over all those people. But Michael Brown will never get that chance. And a community that should get real respect and accountability is being bottled up and shaken, so the angriest amongst them get live-streamed to 2nd Amendmenters across the country, reinforcing centuries-old stereotypes.
     

  •  sorry there are MANY on the right (0+ / 0-)

    standing up for brown.

    the police were out of line (as they often are) in the shooting and after the shooting.

    It isnt this department it is police everywhere.

    I absolutely respect the police, but most I have encountered personally (usually for a traffic violation) are power hungry assholes.

    To some extent I see how easy it is to become that way after seeing the worst humanity has to offer.

  •  Your logic says no guns then no problems? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DarthMeow504

    What about the Swiss where everyone has to do military service and take their weapon home with them?

    What about the fact that their has never been a government take over its citizens by a dictator where the citizens are allowed to have guns?

    You are saying guns are the problem, but in Ferguson it was the police.  Do you propose to take away the police's guns?

    If you take the guns away do you expect the criminals to follow the no guns law?

    I don't own a gun, but I don't see your logic.  

    Maybe education before ownership would help.  Maybe graphic films of blood, guts, urine and feces being spilled after a gun shot rather than Hopalong Cassidy simply falling off his horse would help?

    •  The Swiss don't hate each other like we do (0+ / 0-)

      America was founded as a racist society, and has an active movement to "restore" our sacred past controlling one of its two political parties and cowing the other into silence, just like what happened after Reconstruction.

      The Swiss, I understand, are issued their long arms by their government, and are not given the opportunity to purchase those until they leave the reserve.  Since they are responsible adults, as Americans mostly aren't, they don't see their guns as power fantasies to be used in drunken disputes against neighbors and wives.  But most of all, no Swissman expects to ever use his gun to kill his fellow citizens of other ethnicities.  Far too many Americans not only plan on it, but they enjoy it and fantasize about it.

      And every governed state has rules about gun ownership, so your statement about dictators only winning where there is no gun ownership is absurd.  The comment upthread pointed out that Jews could own guns for some time after Hitler's victory; that didn't stop him nor could they have overthrown him with so many of his followers privately owning their own guns. Many, many dictators rose to power in Europe in that era, and I expect every one of those countries had large numbers of pistols and hunting rifles.  Weapons useless against a real army, but very useful for the private militias of an extremist to terrorize his opponents into silence as he rose to power.  Which race would win such a contest in our country?

  •  The 2nd is for whites only, thanks Dante (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kfunk937

    I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

    by a2nite on Mon Aug 18, 2014 at 12:16:19 PM PDT

  •  Why hasn't The home grown terrorists been arreste (0+ / 0-)

    We have seen what happens when an unarmed black teenager encounters a Ferguson Mo. white police officer he is shot and killed for what I still don't know why he was shot. Yet the homegrown terrorists that came to Clive Bundy's aide and pointed guns at Federal and local law enforcement  officers haven't even been approached let along arrested for their criminal actions. The fact that no one has been arrested or charged with breaking the law in Nevada shows how different white thugs are treated compared to people of color.  All of the Bundy territorists, Bundy and Bundy's family should have already been arrested, charged and etc yet they haven't been and they are still terrorizing the people that live in the area of Bundy's ranch. It is past time to arrest them and prosecute then, take Bundy's cattle to pay his past due fees. so why in the hell hasn't local and federal law officers doing there job against this white thief and his white territorists backers? If he and they were people of color they would be dead now, but since they are white they haven't even been arrested.

    REGISTER AND VOTE NOVEMBER 2014

    IMPEACH THE REPUBLICAN 5. THEY DON'T UP THE CONSTITUTION AND ITS LAWS, THEY UPHOLD THEIR POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS BELIEFS INSTEAD.  

  •  Great diary, Dante. It also occurred to me at one (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kfunk937

    point that the NRA asshats were crashingly silent throughout the miasma that has Ferguson in a death grip. They (Bundyesque Vigilantes) certainly are today's KKKers that is for certain. And I do agree that before too much longer I believe we will see Cloven Bundy and his fellow scofflaws under arrest. The clamor will get too loud and so Holder will be forced to take some action.

  •  I hate diaries like this...they are dishonest (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jo Bob, DarthMeow504

    No group of people collectively have been more harmful and destructive to the civil right to defend oneself, especially in the African American community than Democrats/Progressives...none

    So much so as documented in the book Negroes and the Gun: The Black Tradition of Arms...and other points of reference, that before African Americans could even sit at the table they had to give up the longstanding tradition of firearms to defend themselves from mobs, vigilantes and racist cops.

    So stop pretending it's some great tragedy that the Right hasn't called for Blacks to arm themselves....for if they did... Progressives would rush like lunatics with their heads on fire to the nearest legislative arm to ensure that didn't happen.

    African Americans suffer daily, at the hands of a oppressive police state and criminals, and it's  on full display in all it's glory in Ferguson, Mo...all because some soccer mom shed a tear in a suburban neighborhood far far away from that neighborhood and those like it.

    Detroit has made inroads in crime, which the Chief has the numbers to back it up, by telling the citizens to arm and defend themselves.

    Some are still reluctant because who wants their name in a database that the police have access to, showing they have a gun...that's like having a scarlett letter on your door indicating you want to killed by an overly aggressive swat team who happens to have the wrong address, especially in minority neighborhoods in Democratic city/state strongholds...nevermind negiotating the minefield of a legal system that's already prejudiced against you and  a D.A. trying to score points by being tough on guns in these strongholds.

    The reality is that the Brown case has zero to do with open carry, which is probably why you haven't heard the call, but with that being said, had he been open carrying freely without restriction in a city or state that reinforced that basic civil right without apology,  the odds are he would still be alive today, because even if the officer didn't respect him and looked upon him as some sort of animal as apparently some in that police dept do as evidenced by video from the demostations, he surely would have respected his firearm and acted accordingly.

    So stop it with the I wonder why the right, blah, blah, blah as if you care, you don't, you're just fine with African Americans being unarmed and defenseless, dying at the hands of criminals and rogue cops...it's in the platform, to suggest anything else is just blatant hypocrisy.....

    •  I want Blacks to win (0+ / 0-)

      But they can't win when the police can easily be replaced by a renewed KKK.  If you don't think your beloved white conservatives won't do that again, I'd like you to state your reasons.

      As for how the cops would deal with an open-carrying black man, how do you think our soldiers would deal with an open-carrying stranger in Iraq and Afghanistan?  Bombs.  And what Republicans ever had a problem with that?

      If blacks launch an armed rebellion and fail, all of us progressives regardless of color will be rounded up and put in concentration camps.  That's what the Right dreams of.

      Every faction of the Right Wing, in its internal propaganda, makes essentially the same statement: "America is a republic, not a democracy."  Then they make endless public statements about restoring the original laws of the country.  What the hell makes you think that you will even have the right to vote when they take over?

      Yes, eventually there will have to be a violent confrontation with the white capitalist cult of inequality.  But since you piss on progressives, you must want the idea of equality to be forgotten.  You want to make self-defense a selfish matter that doesn't challenge the vast growth of inequality being carried out against all races globally.  Things will just keep getting worse because the true criminals don't need guns.  Our guns just get used in drunken brawls and vendettas against each other, far more often than they will prevent killings by those of us who have given up on the law.  We get weaker, the capitalists and their neo-Confederate henchmen get stronger.

      I can't comment here about what weapons are the solution.  But self-defense will eventually require destruction far beyond what guns are capable of, well organized as part of a revolutionary strategy.  So stop with your unarmed and helpless crap.  You're armed and still helpless right now.

      •  I disagree with your assesment, I find it shallow. (0+ / 0-)

        You seem to have the impression that I'm embracing Confederates, Conservatives, and/or the Right...I'd  argue you misunderstand. My argument is that if one thinks Progressives have the high ground on this issue, they do not...history and current events reflect that.

        I can tell you how cops would deal with an open carrying black man, I have done so in what some would describe as one of the most racist states in the nation...I opened carried for quite awhile in Az and continue to do so when I visit, I've never had anyone in Law Enforcement look at me twice, nor give me any problems. If I tried that in my home state of California, I would be jailed best case scenario or worst case scenario killed.

        No one is suggesting a arned rebellion, that's a lose, lose propositon for all involved, but merely an embrace of the right to defend oneself without restriction, which is in the interest of African Americans in this country...based on this countries historical and present condition

        Progressives won't corner the market on the losses sustained in a armed rebellion, because eventually a cancer like that will consume everyone and there will be no winners, no matter what the zealots try to convince themselves.

        What makes you think voting, especially voting Democratic has exactly been a boon for African Americans, just using this year as an example....Steny Hoyer makes slavery jokes, at a presentation with the first Black President and a African Contingency in attendance, 50 schools closed by a Democratic Golden Boy endorsed by the National Party in the adopted hometown of the first Black President, while 100 million is used to build a stadiium a few blocks away,  Detroit residents water being turned off and having to ask for U.N intervention, because if they complain to loudly their kids will be removed, Promise Zone funding going to wealthy donors in a stones throw from million dollar neighborhoods while the poorest neighborhoods continue to rot, some of which have been rotting since the 60's Watts riot...and African Americans continue to be ravaged by unemplyment in their communities

        So why exactly did African Americans give 98% of their vote for in these Democratic strong holds, during the last two Presidential runs...oh wait...I know... the G.O.P. would be worse ...it's a ridiculous assertion....considering

        And there we have it, the sush and be quiet, we are here to help you meme, see look at the boogie man over there....here's a newsflash...it's tired...and has been proven not to be true or in our interest.

        I'm becoming of the mindset, that African Americans as a whole should severe their unhealthy relationship with the Progressive wing of the political spectrum, not to embrace Conservatives mind you...their nonsense is not in our collective interest either, but a popular phrase in the community states that...I can do bad all by myself, is starting to ring very true within this spectrum.

        I'm of the mind that African Americans need to re-evaluate their allegiances, reject both sides and go it alone...it couldn't be any worse politically for us then it is now.

  •  The NRA and Black People with Guns (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Utahrd

    The history behind the NRA, KKK, and Slavery.

    http://www.urbancure.org/...

    http://youtu.be/...

    http://youtu.be/...

     

    Frederick Douglass "A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box. Let no man be kept from the ballot box because of his color. Let no woman be kept from the ballot box because of her sex."
    •  Your linked article says this (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kfunk937

      "What is the essence of freedom? Property and a gun."

      So the richer you are, the more free you are.  And Britons and Canadians and Danes, et al must be slaves because they're not holding each other at gunpoint and starving their poor.  Yeah, sure.  Only predators are fully human.

      Not surprisingly, a far-right capitalist apologist site that tries to con blacks back into the Victorian laissez-faire hypocrisy regime that worked out so well for them the last time.

  •  2ND Amendment interpretations can wait (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bruddaone

    Any discussions on 2nd Amendment rights can wait until this murder investigation is complete.  This rhetoric is veering off the path that the light SHOULD be focused on...why Michael Brown was shot - six times - as he faced the officer - TWICE in the head, ONCE FATALLY - and WHY said officer didn't stop firing.  Keep to the point people - we can argue the 2nd Amendment later - once JUSTICE has been served - for Darrel Wilson, in particular - Ferguson Police Department, in general - for taking the life of Michael Brown.  

  •  Senator Rand Paul's... (0+ / 0-)

    Sudden transformation from a racist into spewing why-can't-we-all-just-get-along rhetoric, pandering to African-Americans and Hispanics, is as disgusting as it is blatantly bogus. Hmmm... I wonder what new action nemesis role he could play in the next X-Men movie? Hypocriticalyca? Or perhaps we could just go with an old, yet tried-and-true, evil action character -- Two Face.

  •  Weapons and teargas and tanks. Oh, my! (0+ / 0-)
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