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A riot police officer aims his weapon while demonstrators protest the shooting death of teenager Michael Brown, in Ferguson, Missouri August 13, 2014. Police in Ferguson fired several rounds of tear gas to disperse protesters late on Wednesday, on the fou
"Just do what I tell you. Don't argue with me."
With all eyes on the continuing police action in Ferguson, Missouri, some deep thoughts from a Los Angeles police officer:
Regardless of what happened with Mike Brown, in the overwhelming majority of cases it is not the cops, but the people they stop, who can prevent detentions from turning into tragedies. [...]

Even though it might sound harsh and impolitic, here is the bottom line: if you don’t want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you. Don’t argue with me, don’t call me names, don’t tell me that I can’t stop you, don’t say I’m a racist pig, don’t threaten that you’ll sue me and take away my badge. Don’t scream at me that you pay my salary, and don’t even think of aggressively walking towards me. Most field stops are complete in minutes. How difficult is it to cooperate for that long?

Ask Michael Brown how long it takes.


Originally posted to Barbara Morrill on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 10:37 AM PDT.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

    •  And it's more and more difficult (8+ / 0-)

      Not to feel contempt for them.

    •  Well contempt of court (6+ / 0-)

      and cops is a dangerous duo. I ended up spending 3 days in jail in LA during the Darrell Gates reign of terror  for being guilty of both. Contempt of court is a felony but cop contempt is a capital crime.  When they booked me the chief of the Ramparts Division said as he left to go play golf, 'Lot of good the ACLU will do you now, little miss liberal'.

    •  For what it's worth, I've had several cops (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      silverfoxcruiser, Schneewolfe

      say to me that during a traffic stop:

      Turn off the engine.
      Place the keys on the dashboard.
      At night, turn on the overheads.
      Both hands on the steering wheel.
      Don't do anything until instructed to do so.
      Most important of all: Don't flunk the attitude test.

      I was recently pulled over in Wyoming where the Highway Patrol Officer said he pulled me over for doing 85mph in a 75  mph Zone.

      My cruise control was on 75, my GPS unit said I was doing 74.

      I did all of the above, and in a non-confrontational manner mentioned my cruise control and GPS readings.  I did not receive a ticket.  There was no doubt in my mind that if I had 'bad attitude' then I'd be paying the State of Wyoming a couple of hundred dollars for a speeding ticket.  

      "The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." Albert Einstein

      by sfcouple on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 12:22:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'll add one more to that list... (4+ / 0-)

        ...courtesy of my local cops.

        If you must reach ANYWHERE to retrieve something--even if it's your license from the wallet in your back pocket or the registration from your glove compartment--TELL THE COP WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO DO.

        "Sir, my license is in my back pocket..."
        "Sir, the registration is in the glove compartment..."

        It's really simple - but multiple cops have told me that one of the worst things at a traffic stop is when the driver suddenly leans over and flips the glove compartment open without a word, or reaches toward the other side of the vehicle without explanation. They simply never know what to expect...and that can end poorly.

        The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

        by wesmorgan1 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 01:28:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I was pulled over in Idaho for 72 in a 65 (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          This was in ... 1990.  Out of state plates, large number of police (Gooding County/Boise, NOT state patrol) basically tagging and bagging anything without Idaho regs.

          So I pull over, cop walks up and he sees this wooden box on the passenger seat.  "Hey, is that a gun case?"

          "No Officer, that's got my music in it."

          "May I see it?"

          I lean over and pick up the case, and hand it to him.  He unlatches it while I'm holding it. "Oh. This is nice. You make it?"


          "Good workmanship.   Now, where you headed in such a hurry?"

          "Back to New Mexico, been on a road trip for a week now."

          "Huh.  Well I clocked you at blah blah blah, so I need to see your license, registration, and insurance, please."

          These days, I don't carry ANYTHING resembling a gun case on the front passenger seat anymore.

          If your sole and entire rationale for doing something is "It's not illegal." then perhaps you should rethink doing it.

          by dcnblues on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 03:04:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  it sounds harsh (85+ / 0-)

    because it is absolutely untrue.

    What the good officer doesn't note is that cops have a subculture that automatically separates cops from the rest of us. This subculture promotes the "us" vs "them" paradigm, the "thin blue line" bullshit that is driving the crazy overreaction by the police in Ferguson.

    The same subculture that rams it into cops heads that they are all that stands between society and collapse, between order and chaos, promotes putting people into categories for easy reference. Fall into one of these categories of people and the eye of suspicion falls on you. Are you black, poor, driving the wrong car in the wrong neighborhood, a latino, "look like a stoner/hippy/gangster/drug dealer"? Well, guess what? You. Are. Fucked. Once you fall into one of these profiles, it is hard to express your innocence to one of these officers.

    Oh and, what, you don't want us screaming that we pay your salary? You don't fucking want the TRUTH every time you lord your almighty fucking power over us? So, what your telling me is this - you are not above the law, you ARE the law. You are asking for no accountability, no responsibility, what you are essentially asking is for us to lie down and take it.

    Yeah, imagine if the people who fought all of their lives for freedom and liberty just complied. Just made no waves, never question the imagined authority of police officers to be absolute dicks to everyone they meet. Imagine. Seriously.

    And then imagine an absolute totalitarian world where the police/military/political establishment have absolute control over your life. Because that is what this officer is asking of you. Submit to their control, don't make waves, don't defend yourself. One of us shoot one of you? Don't say shit because thats the way it is -- we ARE the law and you better not question it or you may end up the same fucking way.

    I for one think that there is something more to life than simply submitting to authority for authority's sake. That authority has to earn my respect. They don't just get it because they exist.

  •  No kidding (33+ / 0-)

    I hear this line of shit from cops all the time. I realize they have to deal with a lot of cretins during their day, and it gets frustrating, but come on.

    Just another day in Oceania.

    by drshatterhand on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 10:49:10 AM PDT

  •  In other words . . . (44+ / 0-)
    Respect my authority or I'll kick your ass.  Make me a little too nervous and I'll fucking blow you away!

    Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep thoughts can be winnowed from deep nonsense. Carl Sagan

    by sjburnman on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 10:49:51 AM PDT

  •  my little cop anecdote (56+ / 0-)

    I could write about the L.A. cops, who do things like handcuff black men, get them on the ground, then kick them. In broad daylight, in front of a crowd. But this is something different.

    Back in my golfing days I knew a cop and we'd go and play every weekend. Then the Rodney King thing happened. So the cop and I are out on the course and I happen to mention that surely there's a time for restraint, that beatings don't have to happen.

    We finished our round and I haven't seen him since.

    It was like just the mention of the police needing to dial it back was too much. And he was one of the nice ones!

    Dear NSA: I am only joking.

    by Shahryar on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 10:58:42 AM PDT

  •  Written by a brown man named Sunil Dutta. nt (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    The Marti, UbuRoi

    Domestic politics is the continuation of civil war by other means.

    by Visceral on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:00:27 AM PDT

    •  who is also, apparently, (6+ / 0-)

      ... a "a professor of homeland security"

      And that's a thing that makes me say hmmmm.....

      •  well, I was surprised (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Not the usual suspect.  It does make the racism argument harder if even non-white cops can subscribe to the mentality we attribute to white cops.

        I thought the full article was pretty evenhanded.

        Domestic politics is the continuation of civil war by other means.

        by Visceral on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:32:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  context and timing (0+ / 0-)

          For me, the bits of the author's perspective that I might find valuable at another time or another situation are undermined and overwhelmed by the tone deaf insensitivity of offering it as a response to Ferguson.

          •  but doesn't that seem like why he wrote it? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Darmok, CaffeineInduced
            For me, the bits of the author's perspective that I might find valuable at another time or another situation are undermined and overwhelmed by the tone deaf insensitivity of offering it as a response to Ferguson.
            I can understand and sympathize.  But at the same time, here's someone from the other side who sees himself as trying to help.  People are gobsmacked by something that he sees as perfectly predictable, feeling doomed to violent and fatal confrontations with the police that he sees as perfectly avoidable, and are attributing predatory intentions to the police that his experience tells him are not present.

            The worry I increasingly have is that the debate is moving beyond questions of rules of engagement, presumption of innocence, etc. into something that could easily be spun as what the bad guys are eager to spin it as.  Cops go out there with the mentality (backed up by the law) that they are in control, that we have a duty to follow their "lawful orders", and that they have the right to force us if we don't ... because "How can we do our jobs otherwise?"  Then you have people who seem to basically be saying: "We don't have to obey the cops!  Because racism!  And we're pissed!  Whose streets?!  Our streets!!"

            Domestic politics is the continuation of civil war by other means.

            by Visceral on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 12:39:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  intent and outcome ? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              snwflk, darleneh

              I'm afraid I'm finding it somewhat difficult to follow your sequence of thoughts in this thread. I've read some of your other comments here, and they offer some clues, but I don't want to infer too much.

              I'm not sure how to interpret your last paragraph above. Who are the bad guys and what do you perceive they're eager to spin? When you mention "lawful orders", are those ironic quotes or just quoting someone quotes? The bit at the end seems to portray rage over a long history of perceived institutionalized racism reasonably accurately, I'd say. But the phrase "Because racism!" could be interpreted as downplaying the importance of racism in Ferguson. Is that what you meant? In this case, it could also be a way to compress two hundred years of unpleasant history down to two words, i.e. Because racism? Well, yes, exactly. Because racism.

              Here's a bit more about my thought process:

              I do get the impression the police author may have thought his essay could be helpful. Intent, however, does not guarantee an outcome.

              It seems to me the most common reaction to the essay is condemnation. To me that should have been predictable, given the context of Ferguson. An author with more nuanced insight could have used that prediction to change what he wrote or when he published it.

              I note, for example, the author wrote of an incident in which he prevented a dangerous car fire by exercising restraint and empathetic human interaction. And yet, given that the piece deliberately addresses Ferguson, which is figuratively flaming already, he brings what many readers perceive to be a bucket of verbal gasoline.

              It seems to me that a person who knew how to exercise restraint in the car fire situation should know enough to exercise similar restraint about Ferguson.

            •  BINGO! (0+ / 0-)
              Cops go out there with the mentality (backed up by the law) that they are in control, that we have a duty to follow their "lawful orders", and that they have the right to force us if we don't ... because "How can we do our jobs otherwise?"  
  •  RESPECT MY AUTHORITY, OR ELSE... (22+ / 0-)

    I think that pretty much sums that up..

    The worst thing about St. Louis is Missouri.

    by duckhunter on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:03:08 AM PDT

  •  And this is the attitude of.... (34+ / 0-)

    ...."security forces" in a 3rd world dictatorship. Maybe this police officer ought to read what's on the side of police cruisers in New York: "courtesy, respect, professionalism." Not, "obey me unquestioningly or I'll fuck you up."

  •  "Just do what I tell you" or else (19+ / 0-)

    is exactly what leads to brutal beatings of confused, helpless, elderly, or deaf individuals.  

    Even if every single citizen wanted to immediately cooperate and was TRYING their very best to cooperate, it still would not be possible for them all to do so.   For which crime, they should be savaged or executed?    

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:05:49 AM PDT

  •  It might sound harsh and impolitic, but: (23+ / 0-)

    If you don't want me to say you're a racist pig, then don't be a racist pig.

    •  More precisely (4+ / 0-)

      Don't MAKE ME call you a Racist Pig.  

    •  The attitude is racist, but . . . (7+ / 0-)

      even more than that yet.  Its "no one can ever question me or my brothers in arms about anything we are doing - defer to us absolutely or suffer the consequences."  It sounds a lot like the absolute monarchs of the 16th century, or elements of certain totalitarian dictatorships of the 20th century.

      This attitude is inimical to the most basic principles behind the founding of this country (even if we have not always lived up to our ideals in the past).  

      Bottom line - police, and not just in isolated areas, are out of control now and must be reined in, in the interests of the republic.    

      "[L]et us judge not that we be not judged." Abraham Lincoln, March 4, 1865

      by ByTor on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:52:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Words of Wisdom from the LAPD? I'm LMAO. (14+ / 0-)

    I suppose Shepard Fairey was right:


    "To take another person's life from the bench is no better than to take another person's life from the street"

    by commonmass on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:06:54 AM PDT

  •  So shut up and do what you're told... (10+ / 0-)

    or be prepared to get shot. Well, hey, at least he's honest!

    As for rising inequality, many on the right don’t even think it’s a problem...Conservatives seem to believe that the rich will work harder if we give them more, and the poor will work harder if we give them less ~ E.J. Dionne

    by AuroraDawn on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:07:18 AM PDT

  •  and to continue the narrative: (15+ / 0-)

    "And when I gun you down in cold blood for not obeying, I will get put on paid leave, garner support nationwide, and probably get off free and clear.  However, if you were to harm me in any way or gun me down, you will get arrested and either life behind bars or the death penalty."  

    America, the land of the kind of free depending on your skin color and socioeconomic status, and the home of bully cops in military garb.  I applaud the protesters in Ferguson for standing up and saying enough.  It's way past time.  I've been watching this crap play out for over 50 years.

    And the media doesn't help with this red state blue state them vs. us attitude.  They should be destroyed and rebuilt from ground up.  We're letting them divide us.

    The GOP will destroy anything they can't own.

    by AnnieR on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:07:25 AM PDT

  •  This is the real issue (15+ / 0-)

    Not whether Mike Brown did anything to provoke the attack. It's how they create these situations, how the escalate them, and how they respond to them.

  •  Hey, I think most cops are good people who have (20+ / 0-)

    really crappy jobs, for not enough money for the situations they end up in the middle of.

    But some of them are nothing but big egos who like to lord it over people, whatever power they think they have, and those are the ones who make all the rest of them look bad.

    They want people to respect them whatever kind of obnoxious shit the cop puts out, just because they're cops. That's the problem.

    And that racial profiling is real. Discrimination is real. And that sometimes cops shoot and kill people, often African American, and get away with it.

    That's just plain wrong. Nobody deserves to get killed because a cop doesn't like their attitude, because that person might not honor the power trip the cop is on.

    Confession time: When I'm not ranting about politics, I write romance novels

    by teresahill on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:08:05 AM PDT

  •  Might? (5+ / 0-)
    it might sound harsh and impolitic

    A drowning man can not learn to swim. -- Chris Lonsdale

    by Rikon Snow on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:08:13 AM PDT

  •  And the cop who wrote that... (18+ / 0-)

    wonders why people distrust cops?

    You could do EVERYTHING exactly how he says, but if you do it while black you still stand a damned good chance of being executed in broad daylight.

    What the Right Wing calls "being politically correct" is what my mama used to teach me was "being polite".

    by Walt starr on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:08:36 AM PDT

  •  an anecdote: From Los Angeles (15+ / 0-)

    i was driving home to Oxnard from Santa Monica on the Pacific Coast Highway (1999), the posted speed limit was 55. A Santa Monica cop car was in the slow lane doing 40, so I pulled into the passing lane and passed him.

    He pulled me over and YELLED, very angry, very threatening, "DON'T EVER PASS ME."

    Yikes.  Yes, SIR.

    the dog you have, is the dog you need. - Cesar Millan

    by OregonWetDog on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:09:28 AM PDT

    •  So I should only pass people who aren't p------s? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      commonmass, fumie

      "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

      by kovie on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:12:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I got that one, too. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I was actually in the exit lane to switch over to a different freeway entirely when I passed the CHP car. Exactly the same threatening demeanor, attitude, and verbiage.

      "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

      by bryduck on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 12:36:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I suspect I know why (0+ / 0-)

      Although he didn't need to be a dick about it.  Here in California's busy freeways, it is typical for a cop to slow traffic in preparation for a stop in traffic due to an accident, obstruction, animal in the road, but often times it will be accompanied with lane switching.

      They get very angry when they are trying to slow the traffic and people start passing them.

      "I watch Fox News for my comedy, and Comedy Central for my news." - Facebook Group

      by Sychotic1 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 06:00:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The writer can't hear himself (26+ / 0-)
    Even though it might sound harsh and impolitic, here is the bottom line: if you don’t want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you.
    And you don’t have to submit to an illegal stop or search. You can refuse consent to search your car or home if there’s no warrant (though a pat-down is still allowed if there is cause for suspicion). Always ask the officer whether you are under detention or are free to leave.
    Even ignoring the fact that all the assurances he gives about the police will always stop any aggressive action the instant you start complying are total bullcrap, there is no way in this or any other known galaxy that you can follow both of those pieces of advice.

    Yet the guy imagines he's talking sensibly.

    The real USA Patriot Act was written in 1789. It's called the Bill of Rights.

    by nicteis on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:09:44 AM PDT

    •  exactly (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nicteis, Eric Nelson, Sychotic1

      a stop is a confrontation and no one feels this more acutely than the PO. Both parties are going to be agitated and that leads people to do stupid stuff, which leads to further agitation.

      Proper law enforcement requires the ability to both keep a handle your own tension and aggression as well as doing everything possible to alleviate the feeling of tension for the citizen.

      But American police far too often don't do either element. And it's because they're no longer law enforcement. They're foot soldiers in the "war on drugs" or "war on immigration" or "war on terrrr" and every stop could turn into a shoot-out.

  •  No blind obedience (11+ / 0-)


    Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

    by greenbastard on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:10:05 AM PDT

  •  We can't afford this kind of policing. (18+ / 0-)

    You see, cops can tell you what they think they need to do to get the job done.

    Trouble is, they're running headlong into the Constitution.  It's up to us, as citizens, taxpayers...ahem...VOTERS to stand up for the Constitution.

    Every bullet shot by a cop in the line of duty has a cost and the cop needs to pay part of it.  What I mean by that is that the cop needs to be accountable for every shot fired.  The police force needs to account for every bullet.  The police chief needs to be able to explain what happened to the community.  Every time.  

    If not, a price must be paid.  Badges taken away.  Officials fired.  People put in jail.

    Otherwise, there is no cost to the cop for undermining someone's Constitutional rights.  That cost gets passed onto the community in the form of riots, mistrust, lack of cooperation in helping cops solve crimes.

    See, the police can't enforce the law without cooperation from the community.   Sure, they can shoot people here and there, but try solving a real crime spree...serial killer or rapist....without community cooperation.  Can't be done.  Eventually, no one wants to live or do business there and that costs all of us money.

    We can't afford this.

    •  Unfortunately, you don't have to understand (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dconrad, Visceral, metal prophet

      any of that to be a cop. And their training tells them to establish dominance instantly or escalate to force if they don't. That training ultimately comes from the US military doctrine of overwhelming force.

      We have brought the wars home.

      American Presidents: 43 men, 0 women. Ready for Hillary

      by atana on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:30:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hey, that was my line...! (0+ / 0-)

        In another post about this mess. Yes, we have brought the wars home. We hired ex-military men to run our police departments, ex-military men to train the police, and ex-military men to be the police. The doctrine of overwhelming force as programmed into the heads of all these men (and women too) is precisely why Ferguson, Missouri is in flames.

        Our Constitution requires that our military should not be used to control American citizens, yet the military and the police are virtually indistinguishable. The problem may be two-fold: too many trained killers from the military in our police departments and a military that is forced to fight wars it cannot possibly win.

        Imagine being a veteran of the war in Iraq, seeing your buddies killed, having to watch the Iraqis constantly for threats and then coming home to get a job as a cop. Yeah, they know we can't fight back because we're not armed with IED's, RPG's, and AK-47's.

        No, I'm not making excuses for those overgrown juveniles playing war and toting the same damned weapons they used in Iraq. I'm just pointing out that they cannot think of us, the citizens, as anything but the enemy. They've all been trained completely wrong for urban peacekeeping and it's costing us lives and resources in ways that will scar all of us for life, including those idiots in riot gear.

        •  Fail (0+ / 0-)

          MichelleRose, you totally undermine your whole statement with one incorrect and totally false claim.

          You said, "No, I'm not making excuses for those overgrown juveniles playing war and toting the same damned weapons they used in Iraq."

          Those "overgrown juveniles" do not carry the same weapons as used in Iraq no matter how much they look like one. The military uses rifles with fully automatic capabilities, citizens in this nation only carry semi-automatic weapons (unless they pay a huge amount of dollars and submit to ATF background checks, reporting, etc.) for the privilege. Yes they look the same, but they function VERY DIFFERENTLY!

          My suggestion is to educate yourself before sounding foolish.

    •  Cops are first focused on one thing: Control (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I mean these comments as an attempt to understand not as any apology for abuse of force by cops. And I'll say up front:  based on the evidence so far from eye witnesses, there's no doubt in my mind that Darren Wilson should be arrested and prosecuted, probably for  2nd degree murder.

      Cops are taught to establish control over the situation they enter. They are taught that their own safety depends on it. Anything that gives them the impression of not having control of the situation is treated as a threat. And they are supposed to neutralize threats.

      So communication for cops is first about establishing control;  verbal commands are their first way to do it. If they do not get compliance then they consider the behavior, even if just verbal, a threat.

      Belligerently issued commands are an affront to a person's dignity. That's a first blur of the line between gaining control and abusing authority.

      If a white cop who is not part of the neighborhood issues a command to an African American citizen then even if the command is just authoritative, not particularly belligerent, then the citizen may well feel abused. This is a very good reason the community policing programs, recruiting police from the community, is a good model in terms of establishing the basic respect necessary for "field stops" to benefit the community. The cop will be able to establish control and then perhaps even effectively exchange words with whomever is detained; even to the point of providing the information needed for the citizen to file a complaint.

      In a warped relationship of police to community there is little chance that a detained citizen will get an opportunity to represent himself but will remain a "person of interest" or "suspect" and entirely perceived through the skewed filter of a fundamental threat that can't be neutralized, only hyper-vigilantly controlled. Even if the "field stop" ultimately does not include any reason for arrest, the cop may release the detained person but they will not reach any positive resolution; the sense of threat persists for the cop and the sense of being hassled persists for the particular person and for everybody in the community to whom the person tells the story.

      The LA cop in the story we're talking about is commenting about a context in which the relationship between police and community is warped.

      Why cops don't get prosecuted for excessive force is that even a slim basis for being seen as neutralizing a threat in the situation gives them a big benefit of doubt.

  •  Um, because it doesn't always end that way? (8+ / 0-)

    Because it's often unwarranted and illegal?

    Because it's incredibly humiliating and violative?

    Because sometimes you are, in fact, a racist pig, or a sadistic bully?

    For starters?

    Oh, and when did you stop beating your wife?

    "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

    by kovie on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:11:24 AM PDT

  •  By same author: "Guide to Iraqis When Invaded" (12+ / 0-)


    Here is the bottom line: If you don't want to get shot, beaten up, tortured, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you. Don’t argue with me, don’t call me names, don't spew nonsense at me in Arabic, don’t tell me that I can’t stop you, don’t say I’m a foreign occupier, don’t threaten that you’ll join the local insurgents and attack the American armed forces. Don’t scream at me that you don't even pay my salary, and don’t even think of aggressively walking towards me. Most occupations are complete in weeks (er...). How difficult is it to cooperate for that long?
  •  Part of the Comply or Die doctrine (6+ / 0-)

    explained in this recent diary by Arendt:

    Billions for domination, not one cent for decency.

    I've never left a blank space on a ballot... but I will not vote for someone [who vows] to spy on me. I will not do it. - dclawyer06

    Trust, but verify. - Reagan
    Vote, but Occupy. - commonmass

    by Words In Action on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:12:59 AM PDT

  •  This brings to mind Mayor Daley's malapropism (10+ / 0-)

    during the police riots at the '68 Democratic convention-
    "The policeman isn't there to create disorder; the policeman is there to preserve disorder."

    I would update it to now say that the policeman is not going where violence occurs; violence occurs where the policeman goes.

    "She was very young,he thought,...she did not understand that to push an inconvenient person over a cliff solves nothing." -1984

    by aggressiveprogressive on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:13:52 AM PDT

  •  That's my quarrel with cops in the first place. (13+ / 0-)

    The profession attracks authoritarians who demand total obedience. They get off on it. They not only get a thrill out of "chasing bad guys and dopers down" (as a cop once told me)
    but they enjoy the fact that they have the power to herd people around like cattle. To many cops all of us are potentially the bad guys. I don't respect a cop till he fucking earns it. In the old days when I worked alone and listened to talk radio, there was a pop psychologist who took calls and a cop called in who was frustrated that his "wife wouldn't do what he told her to do." I never forgot that.

    Poor wives of many cops: I know one, and she's divorcing him. I rejoice.  

    There should be far more discussion about why people become cops in the first place. The standard cliche of many--"I want to help people"--is a load of bullshit.

    Community policing, civilian review boards with teeth, this is the future.

    "The soil under the grass is dreaming of a young forest, and under the pavement the soil is dreaming of grass."--Wendell Berry

    by Wildthumb on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:13:54 AM PDT

    •  Yep (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wildthumb, CaffeineInduced

      An FBI friend of mine told me that at orientation that the commander essentially said most of you are attracted to law enforcement because you are sociopaths.  LOL.  Truer words were never spoken.  Of course, I am a lawyer so the same could be said of us.  LOL.

      •  Uh, I know you lawyer guys like to argue. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        And you're trained to take one side or the other quickly and with equal dexterity. A next door neighbor of mine used to drive me nuts. You couldn't have a conversation with him without it sounding quickly adversarial.

        "The soil under the grass is dreaming of a young forest, and under the pavement the soil is dreaming of grass."--Wendell Berry

        by Wildthumb on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 03:06:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sophistry... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          It's considered an art form by lawyers. For a properly-trained lawyer, there is no right or wrong, there are only the merits of the case.

          It may account for their bad PR image. Possibly.

          •  Exactly. Their job is just to come up with the (0+ / 0-)

            persuasive and compelling argument, and the shtick that will impress a jury. Sometimes it aligns with the truth, and other times it doesn't.

            "The soil under the grass is dreaming of a young forest, and under the pavement the soil is dreaming of grass."--Wendell Berry

            by Wildthumb on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:12:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I can easily hear a rapist, murderer, pedophile (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, fumie, jds1978, varro, Damnit Janet

    saying those exact things.

    "Speak with your chest, bro. You a man!" - Ferguson citizen to Gov. Nixon

    by jazzence on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:14:29 AM PDT

  •  How about you observe, protect and defend OUR (7+ / 0-)

    Constitution and OUR civil rights?

    You do that, and we'll respect your (limited) authority over us.

    Until then....I will always question your authority, your right to abuse me and my rights, and those of every other citizen.

    Arrogant fuck.

    "Live with no excuses and Love with no regrets."

    by The Marti on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:14:43 AM PDT

  •  It's simple (7+ / 0-)

    Cops are basically a) control freaks who b) are generally uncomfortable with the areas they patrol as c) they don't live in the community they police and d)  have very biased (in some cases racist) views of the areas they police.  And e) they are trained to value "control" over all else and f) loss of control is equated to loss of their authority and potentially their life.  Plus, g) they herd into a "them against us" mentality (i.e. the blue wall).  
    It's a fu..ked up situation and a perfect storm for disasters that would require too much writing on the issues of bad hiring (esp. psychological screening) and bad training.
    It is a sad but real fact that what this guy says is all too true:  it is taking your life into your hand to challenge a cop's authority, no matter how wrong his action is or how public your action is.  And the less you look like the cop, the more dangerous it is.  
    Oh so wrong but it's reality.  

  •  So we must be obedient, like dogs, to the police? (6+ / 0-)

    No surprise coming from the LAPD. Power-tripping assholes.  

    "I never meant to say that the conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally conservative." - John Stuart Mill

    by Kevinole on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:15:32 AM PDT

  •  I don't disagree with this guy. (6+ / 0-)

    He also says:

    When it comes to police misconduct, I side with the ACLU: Having worked as an internal affairs investigator, I know that some officers engage in unprofessional and arrogant behavior; sometimes they behave like criminals themselves. I also believe every cop should use a body camera to record interactions with the community at all times. Every police car should have a video recorder. (This will prevent a situation like Mike Brown’s shooting, about which conflicting and self-serving statements allow people to believe what they want.) And you don’t have to submit to an illegal stop or search. You can refuse consent to search your car or home if there’s no warrant (though a pat-down is still allowed if there is cause for suspicion). Always ask the officer whether you are under detention or are free to leave. Unless the officer has a legal basis to stop and search you, he or she must let you go. Finally, cops are legally prohibited from using excessive force: The moment a suspect submits and stops resisting, the officers must cease use of force.
    Dutta is talking about interacting with cops in general, not in the specific case of Michael Brown.

    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."

    by grape crush on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:15:40 AM PDT

  •  While he does have a point... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, duhban, METAL TREK, IQof20

    Yes, you should not be rude to a police officer; you are just asking for it if you are a jerk.  Are you asking to be shot six times? No.  

    Police are (or at least ought to be) trained in ways to de-escalate a situation.  The rule I have always heard, second hand, is that as an officer, if you have to draw your weapon, you did something wrong.  

    If this guy does share that sentiment about his duties, it did not come across that way in his post.

    Both parties frankly have a duty to behave civilly, and in Michael Brown's case, the testimony I've heard (I believe from his parents' lawyer) is that he had his hands in the air at the time he was shot.    

    My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. -- Senator Carl Schurz(MO-1899)

    by Adam Blomeke on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:17:44 AM PDT

    •  reading the entirety of the article (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      he does appear to have much more nuance than the snippet leads on to argue.

      My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. -- Senator Carl Schurz(MO-1899)

      by Adam Blomeke on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:25:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not my experience. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dancing Frog

      Every cop-vs-civilian situation I have seen where the civilian showed any verbal (not physical) resistance has resulted in fact an escalation by the cop.  Several people which included  cops how told me that they are trained to control a situation they don't like by further and forcefully asserting their authority and control.  That either means a verbal or physical beat down.  

      An guy we know from Eastern Europe who was trying to become a cop here in the states told us American cops are trained to go to physical violence much more quickly than in Eastern Europe.

      •  The best cops I have met.... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PhilJD, Fixerguy, CaffeineInduced

        ...are the ones who treat everyone, even (or, perhaps, especially) a drunk, belligerent homeless guy, with respect and courtesy, even if you're asking them to do something they don't want to do. The best cops that I've met will de-escalate a situation. Unfortunately, there's a police culture that doesn't promote cops like this and protects the racists, the corrupt, and the violent.

        •  Yes, (0+ / 0-)

          That "culture" is also referred to as the police union and you may be sure that they have most city, county and state governments in an iron grip. If a politician doesn't have the support of the police unions, he won't be re-elected.

  •  Here's the bottom line... (3+ / 0-)

    If you can't do your job without relying on excessive force, then quit.l

    “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - John Steinbeck (Disputed)

    by RichM on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:18:47 AM PDT

  •  With an attitude like that cop.. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    schumann, commonmass, Fixerguy, sjburnman

    it's no wonder people's response is 'off the pigs'.
    We don't need neo-Nazi storm-troopers with the divine right to commit summary executions.

  •  Ahh, sage friggin' words . . . (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, Fixerguy, CaffeineInduced

    from the PD that gave you the Rodney King savagery!  Anyone see a pot and kettle running around??

    (please pardon the profanity, I don't normally resort to such language, but this raging fucktard warrants an exception) . . .

    "Don't challenge me?"  "Do what I tell you?"  (cue face-palms x infinity)  Says fucking who, badge-sucker?  What exactly are YOU doing to me, robbing my home?  Extorting money from a drug deal gone bad?  Mugging someone?  Exactly what are we trying to enforce here??

    If I, as a grown adult, "compos mentis" and all, decide that there is something seriously wrong w/the situation on its' face, DAMN STRAIGHT I'm going to "challenge" you, albeit not as aggressively as the hyperbolic examples you gave.  Something along the lines of "why am I being stopped, officer?"  Can you handle that, tin star??  B/c if you can't, you're in the wrong line of work, amigo.

    IT'S MY RIGHT as a friggin' citizen to challenge attempts at unfettered police action.  Buddy up to that, "officer."

    Please don't get me wrong, I'm usually the last person to complain (blame it on Catholicim and Army boot camp).  I'm the little voice saying "Officer Friendly ain't dead, really!"  But this jerk-off makes it a bit difficult to defend my position.  

    Above all, I won't be lectured on what I can and can't say to an officer during a stop.  Ever.

    •  I sincerely... (0+ / 0-)

      Hope that you don't encounter a cop who pushes your buttons in that fashion. You're going to end up as another grim statistic, be you white or black. Hint: it's not wise to say things like that to an armed man with a bad attitude and several hundred armed colleagues eager to back him up, regardless of the circumstances. Please be careful, Lycisca. We need your passion and it won't do us any good if you're dead. I say this not as a lecture but only as a word of caution. Please be careful.

      •  Many thanks! (0+ / 0-)

        I was spleen-venting more than anything else.  Would I be that aggressive?  Only if (literally) my life were at stake.

        But thank you for the caution; I just never know what I may run into out there.

  •  Some cops are pathological (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    They are authoritarians and being a cop fits in with the need to be in control and ant-social traits and one of their traits being blaming the victim. Authoritarians demand strict obedience, repression and zero tolerance. It's all about power. According to authors Kathy Schneider and Paul Amar "The rise of crime, disorder and authoritarian policing", there has been an increase in police brutality and police shooting  and killing of individuals while in their custody.

  •  PIGS (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    snwflk, Damnit Janet

    Just shut the fuck up, stop killing people and do your goddamned job.

    Be glad you have one.

  •  huh (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Well on one hand the whole 'don't make me beat you'  thing is absurd. Regardless of whether escalation is necessary or not I can't help but feel that responsiblity for the situation flows both ways. I've interacted with cops that were polite, courteous and did everything they could to keep the situation calm and under control. I've also interacted with cops that were assholes plain and simple. That were aggressive by default and basically were power tripping.

    On the other hand the above as I said flows both ways. I've seen people remain mindful that caution is the default setting for cops and stayed calm and collected no matter how unfair or wrong they thought matters were. I've also seen people behave aggressively and escalate matters and then act indignant when inevitably they lose.

    So I guess my thoughts are is that there is some truth there but there's also some maryrt complex there  and that by refusing to acknowledge that both police and civilians are responsible for keeping things under control what ever truth was in that statement will be lost.

    Der Weg ist das Ziel

    by duhban on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:21:52 AM PDT

    •  On the other hand (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PhilJD, kharma

      It's the cop who's been trained for it, in theory. It's supposed to be his job.

      Yes, we should all try to remain calm and collected, but the cop also doesn't know what other stresses we've had. It's the cop's job to remain in control of himself as well as the situation, no matter what's going on. That's why he gets trusted with the gun.

      If the cop can't handle someone arguing with him, calling him names, threatening to sue or anything else that isn't a physical threat, he needs to be in a different job. He certainly shouldn't be trusted with lethal force.
      (And what the hell is "aggressively walking towards me"? How is that different from normal walking towards him?)

      The Empire never ended.

      by thejeff on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:53:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  cops are not superhuman (0+ / 0-)

        I've seen more than a couple instances where the cop was polite and civil but the situation still escalated.

        And honestly? I don't care what stresses people have had. For all you know the cop you are dealing with just got done with a high speed pursuit of a child molester or something else. Should they drag that into their interaction with you? It's like when people on this site say that we should excuse the rioting and looting because people are angry. Well you know what I'm pretty angry too and not just about this situation.

        Control your emotions it's part of being a mature adult.

        Der Weg ist das Ziel

        by duhban on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 02:05:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But the difference is (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          snwflk, Bwaddle, kharma, sockpuppet

          I'm not carrying a gun. I don't have authority.  If I get upset, I don't get to beat the crap out of people or shoot them.

          The cop does. The cop can. And he can pretty much get away with it if it's not on tape and he uses the right phrases to describe why he did it.

          That's why he needs to be held to a higher standard than ordinary joes. It's his job. If he can't do it, then he shouldn't have the job.

          As I said, "we should remain calm and collected", but the cop is going to have to deal with a lot of people in very stressful situations. Some of them won't. Some of them can't. He has to be able to handle that.
          The average customer service retail job involves a lot of people getting upset and screaming at them and even threatening them. They don't get to attack customers. They get far less training and far less pay. Why should cops be held to a lower standard? Why do they have to get instant compliance or they can beat you into the ground?

          The Empire never ended.

          by thejeff on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 04:12:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  So here it is... (0+ / 0-)

    "These 'Yet To Be' United States" --James Baldwin--

    by kevinbr38 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:22:34 AM PDT

  •  So is this what conservatives will do it when O... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dirtandiron, GRLionsFan

    So is this what conservatives will do it when Obama comes for their guns?

  •  I won't throw a blanket ... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    commonmass, Dirtandiron, PhilJD, snwflk

    But only say: MOST people who want to be cops have cop-souls and get off on 'power.'

    They creep me out, whether in cities or swaggering around some one-horse shitville.

    A few years back I argued with some arrogant POS prick over a very minor traffic situation and he went fucking ballistic.  I did tell him to cram it up his ass, but still ... he had the gun and club ... and I have no doubts that if I was the wrong color, he'd have done more than yell.

  •  How difficult is it to repeatedly offer submission (8+ / 0-)

    to an abusive system? Oh I don't know... Maybe he could ask the founding fathers and mothers of the country?
    Yes being a police officer is a hard, dangerous, dirty, underpaid and unappreciated job. Got it. Now go talk to public school teachers.
    Why make it harder on yourself by constantly being an asshole to the people you are supposed to protect and serve? You want submission and respect based only upon the reason that you are a police officer? Don't you have it bassackwards? The police must earn the respect by being TRUSTED to do the job fairly, impartially, and consistently.
    Respect is a two way street. You never will get it so long as you demand submission with it.
    The thin blue line is rapidly becoming an armed gang of camo clad thugs and extortionists. Fake stops, driving while a minority, fines, fees, and a legal system designed to inflict more of the same. You want respect and SUBMISSION at the same time? You aren't fit to be a cop. Go join a street gang.
    Oh never mind, you're already in one.

    Give blood. Play hockey.

    by flycaster on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:24:02 AM PDT

  •  Watch it Again (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

    by Wisper on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:24:25 AM PDT

  •  Contempt of cop... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    now punishable by death

    Discussing politics in terms of team names is pointless. Talk policy.

    by wheresjim on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:26:41 AM PDT

  •  Fucking pigs (0+ / 0-)

    Fucking pigs

  •  Obedience includes giving up basic rights. (4+ / 0-)

    Forget for a second let's say the "attitude" someone might give a cop.  What they demand aside from groveling physical obedience  includes giving up basic rights like the right to silence, and  freedom from illegal searches. Cops and their enablers have established cop's as have a as "Bill of Rights free zones" around them.  This is particularly true with minorities and young people.  Saying that you will not answer a question will get you into trouble the same as if you started calling him/her every name in the book.  

  •  knuckle dragger (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dirtandiron, Damnit Janet

    with this kind of attitude probably gets into waaay more shit than he has too.  I wouldn't have wanted this clown coming to my calls.

  •  Has it really been 22 years? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move. -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

    by boriscleto on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:28:55 AM PDT

  •  I'm a citizen. You're sworn to protect and (6+ / 0-)

    serve me.  If you can't do that without waving your dick please quit your job and join a mercenary group.  Good money, but of course death is always a risk.  

    I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

    by I love OCD on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:29:00 AM PDT

  •  What country do I live in? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dconrad, Dirtandiron, snwflk

    WOW! Just WOW!

  •  So he's admitting that he would shoot someone (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dirtandiron, Damnit Janet

    that called him a name? Good thing we give these guys guns!

  •  Sweet! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    notevenclosetoonepercent, varro

    I cast a shadow, therefore, I am. You stand on my shadow, therefore, you are.

    by glb3 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:31:45 AM PDT

  •  Another police shooting (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dirtandiron, snwflk

    In St. Louis  not many details yet. Alas, same as it ever was.

    skip the light fandango, turn cartwheels across the floor

    by radicalink on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:32:47 AM PDT

  •  Sadly... (6+ / 0-)

    ...while certainly not all cops are bad, in my own personal experience - and I am a white, middle-class male - many seem to have very poor listening and conflict resolution skills.

    Many cops fail to acknowledge that an extreme power differential exists between them and the individuals they encounter, and they don't accept the responsibilities that go along with this differential.  Many cops escalate problems rather than diffuse them when their job is to do the opposite.  

    If you're running around with pistols, rifles, and stun guns, you need to have a longer fuse - it's just that simple.  You need to be able to take VERBAL abuse - whether it's warrented or not - because that's part of the responsibility you take on when you put on that uniform, ie, to try to take bad situations and make them better.  If your first inclination is to beat someone who's supposedly disrespected you, then you're in the wrong profession.  Lethal force should be a last resort, but for some, it appears to be a first one.

    I understand that potentially putting your life in harm's way every day can be an extreme mental challenge, but if that affects the way you interact with your fellow human beings, then you need a different job.

    Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power -- Benito Mussolini

    by drcraigphd on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:33:16 AM PDT

  •  Was this in the print edition? (0+ / 0-)

    "Post Everything" sort of looks like a web feature that accepts unsolicited essays.

    Perhaps someone more familiar with the Washington Post than I am can confirm or correct or explain .... ?


  •  Exactly part of our narrative (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dirtandiron, community builder

    Thanks, Sunil, you're just helped move a few more people over to the side of, "maybe we should start reigning in our cops after all..."

    Keep arresting people, MO cops and keep opening your authoritarian mouths, cops in other areas. We're getting a little bit of sunshine behind the Thin Blue Line to see just how abusive and disgusting these "public servants" are.

    [Terrorists] are a dime a dozen, they are all over the world and for every one we lock up there will be three to take his place. --Digby

    by rabel on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:37:55 AM PDT

  •  This is Exactly (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    The type of thinking that allows some in law enforcement to act like they have a blank check to behave any way they want, without consequence.

    It's total bullshit, and whoever this is should have their badge stripped, because they aren't fit to wear it.

    I get it, that, in a functioning civilized society, we do - and have to, to a degree - accept that there will be times when those we entrust as law enforcement may engage in uses of force, including lethal force at times, to control a situation or neutralize a threat.

    If two of my neighbors engage in a violent fist fight, police are summoned, and the two individuals attempt to resist police...police are well within their rights to use reasonable force to contain the combative individuals.

    If a man takes a hostage, and law enforcement sees an opportunity to subdue the assailant with force, most of us will be happy to see the innocent person unharmed.

    If two bank robbers point high powered rifles at police, and begin indiscriminately firing at them...I not only want, but expect, law enforcement to return fire, in an aim to stop the threat to innocent lives in the immediate area. If deadly force is necessary in this situation, so be it.


    But when law enforcement officers begin to think that they, themselves are above the law, and that the citizens must mindlessly acquiesce to their demands. That's when we have a real problem with authority, and it's almost certainly the person attempting to exude the authority.

  •  Did I wake up in some bad movie from the 70s? (3+ / 0-)

    I'm waiting for the mirrored sunglasses and the "Boy, you in a heap o' trouble" drawl.

    If the pilot's good, see, I mean if he's reeeally sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low... oh you oughta see it sometime. It's a sight. A big plane like a '52... varrrooom! Its jet exhaust... frying chickens in the barnyard!

    by Major Kong on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:39:55 AM PDT

  •  Hummm. I didn't quite read the article as we are (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Darmok, Dirtandiron

    discussing here. While the author doesn't account for sociopathic or bullying cops,  he does make a point about protecting ourselves first by being respectful in an encounter with police, not knowing first hand the mindset of the cop. Until we are a more mature country with more compassionate, enlightened citizenry, this police attitude of fear as they approach each and every one of us may be dangerous for us. So we can be mad (I'm furious actually as I read this diary) but putting myself in their shoes, I have better understanding, and will be more mindful and self protective in any future encounter with the police.

    Meanwhile let's work for change, in all the ways we talk about here, so that neither the public or the police has so much reason to be afraid and angry. I sound polyannish even to myself. I'm heart broken about the racism being displayed in Ferguson. But demonizing the police isn't going to help.

    Get out the VOTE.

    The 'shift' is hitting the fan.

    by sydneyluv on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:40:13 AM PDT

  •  So, what's the alternative? (3+ / 0-)

    A lot of folks here who apparently look forward to the opportunity to talk back or something the next time they're stopped for running a red light, but I'm wondering what you hope to accomplish?

    •  I don't want to talk back to them (0+ / 0-)

      I just want them to stop arresting journalists.

      Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

      by Dirtandiron on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:51:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  it's not about WANTING to do it. it's about the (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PhilJD, Sychotic1, SphericalXS

      reality that encounters can be frustrating and emotional and that the police think they have a right to brutalize you if you're not completely subservient.

      Building Community. Creating Jobs. Donating Art to Community Organizations. Support the Katalogue

      by UnaSpenser on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 12:04:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think people are reading what he wrote (0+ / 0-)

        Or maybe he could communicate better, but it's pretty apparent (to me) that he's talking about if he's going to detain or arrest you, your options are limited at that point, and becoming belligerent could lead to his use of force.

        The fact is that police officers DO have the authority to use force on you; again, under certain circumstances.  I don't understand why anyone would think that antagonizing a police officer in those circumstances would be a smart thing to do, regardless of who is in the right.  You can't spend the check you're going to win in an excessive force case if you're in a casket.

  •  The Scariest Thought of All: (0+ / 0-)

    This guy's attitude is probably typical of the LAPD....

  •  Living In A Police State (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    starduster, snwflk, Damnit Janet

    this is the most perfect description of living in a police state I think I've ever read.

    Collect Different Days

    by Homers24 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:42:26 AM PDT

  •  Has CNN Reported On This Yet? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    starduster, Damnit Janet, SphericalXS

    People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people. --V for Vendetta

    by WFBMM on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:44:27 AM PDT

  •  If this cop wants blind obedience (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    he's in the wrong profession.  

    Unfortunately, I have a met a few officers who conflate respect for the law with personal obedience to them.  

    If the guy doesn't want a job with stress, he become an LA insurance actuarial and fill his 8 hours only with numbers and statistics, not with people.   Of course you don't get a uniform and a gun and nobody wants to hear about your work at the bar or finds actuarials sexy or daring.  (Sorry actuarials.)

    "Out of Many, One Nation." This is the great promise of these United States of America -9.75 -6.87

    by Uncle Moji on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:50:06 AM PDT

  •  Datta's article in short: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    "Respect mah authoritah!"

    You can't spell "Dianne Feinstein" without "NSA".

    by varro on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:50:10 AM PDT

  •  Somewhere in Scripture there is a comment on (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    schumann, snwflk

    "out of the mouths of babies".

    Here you have it, "out of the mouth of the Cop, himself."

    For those who still haven't learned the lessons, I repeat:

    Lesson 1.   ANY Cop, ANY time, ANY place, can do ANYTHING he wants to do to ANYONE else, and  he'll ALWAYS get away with it.

    Lesson 2.  EVERY Cop has a license - the Badge - and the tool(s) - a gun, - that YOU, as an object to be CONTROLED, give him, as a CONTROLER, when he becomes a Cop, to apply Lesson 1 as he sees fit; and YOU can do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER about it.

    Lesson 3.  Never, Never, NEVER trust a Cop!

    I learned those lessons something over 75+ years ago, as a little boy, whose parents owned a business on Denver's South Broadway.  And they haven't been proved wrong yet!

  •  Let the process run its course (0+ / 0-)

    Only a few folks know what happened that night (and one of them is dead).  After the quick rush to judgment in Fergerson, the truth is slowly coming out

    •  If you read the transcript of this (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      snwflk, SphericalXS

      interview you will see that she basically paints Darren Wilson as Andy fucking Griffith. Why the hell wouldn't the account match Darren Wilson's when she is calling in about a second hand account she heard from Wilson himself??   This is also the Dana Loesch show. There was no reason to call THIS particular program (which I have never heard on any radio station anywhere) except to disseminate a counter-narrative into the right-wing media machine. It's probably the most horseshit story I've heard out of all the ones in the past 10 days, and that is saying something.

      America... just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable.

      by jjstraka34 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 12:03:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Again... (0+ / 0-)

        How do you know what happened?

        Were you there?

        Do you tend to follow the crowd, even though the crowd may be wrong?

        I am not defending Darren Wilson or Michael Brown, but before we make a bad situation worse, we need to wait for the truth to come out

  •  Well here you go, the mindset (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    schumann, snwflk

    that is not only shared by the vast majority of cops I have ever ran into, but also encouraged by the culture they espouse. Murder, rape, "strong-arm robbery". These are not the worst crimes in the eyes of police. The cardinal sin you can commit in the eyes law enforcement is not doing exactly what they fucking say immediately. What they want more than anything is to bring you to heel. The job BY NATURE attracts authoritarian and socipathic, anti-social personalities.

    I was listening to Thom Hartmann yesterday, and a retired Arizona patrolman called in. He said that he used to wave and smile at his fellow officers whenever he passed one. He says he has now stopped, because all he gets in return every time he does it in recent years is a harsh look from behind a pair of Ray-bans and a scowl.

    I once lived at a town house in low-pop city that had virtually no crime to speak of. I occasionally have nights where I stay up fairly late if I can't sleep. My car was parked in back by the garages of the complex and I realized I had forgotten something in my car that I needed for a project I was working on. It was about 2:30am. I went outside and was rummaging through my car, which was a mess. A cop pulled into the back of the complex, which is nowhere near were his normal rounds would take him. It wasn't a street, you would have to make an effort to get in their. He pulls up right alongside me, shines his light on me through his window and asks me what I'm doing and if this is my car. I didn't temper my contempt when I snidely told him "I live here, and I'm getting something I need from my car." He told me that I shouldn't be rummaging through a car a 2am, as if it was any fucking business of his whatsoever what I was doing in MY car on private property that I was paying rent at. If I had been black instead of a 25-year old white man I likely would have been hauled off to jail. This is a small, insignificant story, but it's always stuck with me as the length to which a cop will go to to fuck with someone for no reason whatsoever, whether because they are bored, or just psychopathic pricks.

    America... just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable.

    by jjstraka34 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:54:59 AM PDT

  •  Funny that (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Sorry but fuck this guy -- two times once when I was stopped  by different cops -- each came at me SCREAMING in my face before I said a word.  Maybe it was my asshole BMW, I dunno.  Maybe we will respect you if you respect us first -- after all you are initiating the contact. Respect is a two-way street fuckers.

  •  Just Do What I Tell You (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Damnit Janet

    It's The American Dream.

  •  What my parents taught me (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Darmok, IQof20, Dancing Frog

    That if am stopped by the police, I am to be respectful at all times.   You also want to clearly show you are not a threat to the police either, which is why I always put my hands on the steering wheel.

    Unfortunately, it seems that many people are not taught this simple rule and that leads to needless confrontations.  

    Yes, police are authoritarian most times when you they stop you, they need to be, because they don't know who you are and the possible threat you may pose.   I little level of respect goes a long way and 99 times out of 100 that respect will be reciprocated back.    

    •  Here we go again, the POOR, POOR (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      cops who have a gun, mace, baton, taser and god knows what else to defend themselves with, not to mention unlimited authority over you as soon as those sirens and lights go on.

      America... just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable.

      by jjstraka34 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 12:07:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And your solution is anarchy (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        or having some type of force that has no means to defend themselves, because I guarantee that if someone is breaking in your house in the middle of the night and you call 911, you want the police showing up with all of those things to defend both you and themselves.    

        •  Didn't we already deal with (0+ / 0-)

          this attitude in "A Few Good Men"? And it was the bad guy who had it?
          No, the desired result is not "anarchy"--there are quite a few stops on the road from Ferguson to there. Most of the rest of the Western European countries have figured it out, representing just the most analogous societies to ours.

          "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

          by bryduck on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 12:55:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I teach the same thing (0+ / 0-)

        It doesn't excuse anything a police officer might do that exceeds their authority, but the last thing you want to be is the final straw breaking that gun-toting camel's back.  Keep your freaking mouth shut, obey as reasonably as you can, and save the lawsuit for afterward.  

        The burden of proof is easier to carry if you're alive.

        I will donate, GOTV and vote for an Elizabeth Warren candidacy for president but I will just vote for Hillary Clinton.

        by IQof20 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 01:37:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Lawsuit?? (0+ / 0-)

          Tell that to the African-american man who was hauled out of his car for no reason by the Ferguson PD, beaten to a pulp, and charged with getting blood on the uniforms of the police.

          He DID file a lawsuit and the cops IN OPEN COURT admitted to the most blatant example of perjury I think I have ever seen AND destroyed video evidence court ordered to be retained. After all that the judge basically said 'Eh, none of this was that big a deal" dismissed the case and allowed the lying pricks to go right back out into the community to continue their terrorism of the black community. Lawsuit, pffffh. Cops do not get called to account in court, under ANY circumstances. To judges they might as well be the Oracle of Delphi.

          America... just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable.

          by jjstraka34 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 02:03:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  He might have lost... (0+ / 0-)

            But he was alive to do it.  I would prefer my son might have the same luxury.

            I will donate, GOTV and vote for an Elizabeth Warren candidacy for president but I will just vote for Hillary Clinton.

            by IQof20 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 04:35:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  It also gives you opportunity to talk yourself... (0+ / 0-)

      of trouble. All you need is an in and some forced teaming.

  •  There are law enforcement officers... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    starduster, schumann

    ...and these are the ones who go out of their way "To Protect and To Serve."

    And then there are the cops, just guys doing their jobs and not particularly caring one way or the other -- but not really malign or evil or anything like that.

    And then there are the Pigs. Evil, sadistic SOBs who get off on their power over others, who enjoy ruining other people's days. The ones who refer to protesters as "fucking animals" and lob teargas not caring there are children in the crowd. The ones who point their assault rifles not at the ground, but directly at unarmed civilians. And of course, the ones who would shoot an unarmed youth trying to surrender.

    My wife taught me those distinctions, and I've actually met police of all three varieties. I have deeply appreciated the first type and have been helped in bad situations by Law Enforcement Officers. I've encountered Cops, and they're fine -- I don't mind dealing with a professional who isn't especially invested in the job but who does it anyway to the best of his or her ability.

    I've had the good fortune not to meet many Pigs, but I know they're out there. One who would say, "I'm a cop. If you don't want to get hurt, don't challenge me"? That's a Pig.

    "Don't ride in anything with a Capissen 38 engine. They fall right out of the sky." -- Kaywinnit Lee Frye

    by Technowitch on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 12:05:55 PM PDT

  •  TL;DR (0+ / 0-)

    In other words, you have no First Amendment rights in any encounter with police.

    Where's the outrage?

    •  The outraged have been tased in Berkley, pepper... (0+ / 0-)

      The outraged have been tased in Berkley, pepper sprayed in Oakland, hosed in AZ, attacked like it was Atilla the Hun in a park in NYC. These police persons are the tools of the very rich who expect us to explode at them in much the same way plantation owners expected their slaves to attack them and then treated the slaves so atrociously that they were damned if they did and dead if they didn't.

      Our problem isn't just the cops, it's the frightened super rich who fully expect us to attack. What the rich don't seem to understand is that when most of us are gone, the rich will not behave respectfully toward the cops and then there will be cops and cockroaches left.

  •  I would say this to the "officer" (0+ / 0-)

    When it comes to a civil lawsuit about your illegal actions, I never "threaten."  Let's just call it "fair warning."  And if I think a warrant is required, I'll ask for it - it is my right to ask, and if you don't produce it to refuse consent.  It is always within any citizen's right, not necessarily to resist physically, but to refuse to consent and refuse to answer questions.  You don't get to verbally abuse, detain, shove, punch, tase, beat, or murder people because they don't immediately submit to your every whim.  

    What an arrogant prick.  He shouldn't be trusted to collect from parking meters, let alone carry around and use deadly force.    


    "[L]et us judge not that we be not judged." Abraham Lincoln, March 4, 1865

    by ByTor on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 12:11:36 PM PDT

  •  Stop.. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    metal prophet, schumann

    If you can't handle your job without killing someone, then maybe you should bet a new job.

    With an attitude like this, is there any wonder some people hate the police?


    ...the GOP seems perfectly willing to hold their breath until the whole country turns Blue.

    by tommy2tone on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 12:13:35 PM PDT

  •  Let's also point out (4+ / 0-)

    just how fucking stupid this life-size game of G.I. Joe that is playing out in Ferguson is. News flash numbnuts....the jungle camo you are wearing isn't providing any benefit to you in a Missouri suburb. You are wearing it because of what it represents culturally and for intimidation purposes. And the fact that you think you need to wear a blast helmet, kevlar vest, and form a line the width of a street with semi-automatic weapons pointed at a group of people approaching you with their hands up proves that you are a fucking COWARD of the highest order. Behind your badge and military arsenal you are nothing but a craven.

    America... just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable.

    by jjstraka34 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 12:22:46 PM PDT

  •  I've had good encounters and bad encounters wit... (0+ / 0-)

    I've had good encounters and bad encounters with police. As a young man they were usually not good, but as I've aged they've gotten better.

    A little attitude goes a long way either way.

    Feel free to call police pig and demand your rights and you're likely to get a right fist or right bullet, but comply and you're much more likely live to write on DK about the experience.

    Something about age and experience makes me less likely to think I'm the star of some goddamned action movie.

    •  Something (0+ / 0-)

      Tells me that you're a white man with a whole lot of cultural privilege. (Don't be angry. It's not your fault, it's just the way it is in this country) From that perspective, yes, things have improved for you because your age adds prestige. A touch of courtly manners and you can feel secure in knowing that you're pretty much safe from a beating or a rage-driven killing by a borderline psycho with a badge and a gun.

      On the other hand, some old folks have been blown away by police because they couldn't hear what the cop was saying. Better make sure your hearing aid batteries are fresh. Just a thought for the day...  

  •  Don't hurt my fee fees or I might kill you (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Damnit Janet

    Pretty sure I'd get arrested for telling anyone that.

    Guess I should be a cop and get away with it daily?

  •  respect (0+ / 0-)

    is a word most police officers but not all don't have in their vocabulary anymore if they ever understood the word at all.

  •  "Show some empathy for the officer's safety con... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PhilJD, snwflk, Damnit Janet

    "Show some empathy for the officer's safety concerns." No thank you. A lot of cops have no empathy, and everyone they encounter that they don't know is a potential"perp." As holder of white privilege, cops STILL treat me with tude and arrogance. Cant imagine being in a Ferguson type situation.

  •  I have an outrage reflex which could tend (0+ / 0-)

    to be triggered were I ever to be detained without cause (full disclosure--I've never been detained with or without).  In the face of such authoritarian BS, I don't know if I could keep my natural smartassery in check.

  •  Nice selective quoting on this one... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    The LAPD cop ALSO wrote this:

    I know it is scary for people to be stopped by cops. I also understand the anger and frustration if people believe they have been stopped unjustly or without a reason. I am aware that corrupt and bully cops exist. When it comes to police misconduct, I side with the ACLU: Having worked as an internal affairs investigator, I know that some officers engage in unprofessional and arrogant behavior; sometimes they behave like criminals themselves. I also believe every cop should use a body camera to record interactions with the community at all times. Every police car should have a video recorder. (This will prevent a situation like Mike Brown’s shooting, about which conflicting and self-serving statements allow people to believe what they want.)
    It's a shame that the diarist didn't see fit to include THESE quotes, because it's clear that the writer supports a STRONG check and balance (in the form of video records) on police activities.

    Instead of snarking and venting on this guy, we should be pointing others to this article and saying, "See, even this LAPD cop says they should all have body and vehicle cameras!"

    The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

    by wesmorgan1 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 01:41:17 PM PDT

    •  All your additional quotes demonstrate (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Damnit Janet

      is that even a relatively thoughtful, "nuanced" cop like Dutta still fully buys into the pervasive "obey or else" mindset of the police; that even the "good apples" are ready to convict the populace they ostensibly serve of an imaginary offense like "aggressively walking."

      I don't find that comforting in the least.

      Fascism in the mirror is nearer than it appears.

      by PhilJD on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 02:48:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, he sees accountability on both sides. (0+ / 0-)

        Car/body cameras are a HUGE step in making cops accountable for their every public interaction. So, he's arguing that you and I SHOULD be able to hold cops accountable through video recordings. You don't think that's a bold statement for a cop, especially an urban cop, to make? Have you heard anyone else come out with a more feasible method to apply checks and balances to cops on the street?

        There's a balance to be struck. Dutta's comments serve that purpose very well. It's a shame that people want to pull individual statements out for criticism without acknowledging either the critical eye he levels at cops or his suggestions for holding more cops accountable for their actions.

        The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

        by wesmorgan1 on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:26:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  RETORT and RESPONSE to the POLICE (0+ / 0-)

    We are the rest of the population. If you don't want US to kill you ...then you should stop killing us and hiding behind your crimes. There are WAY more of us than you. Your bullets will only last so long...Then we are on you! There is no other jury for you except the ones banging down your door. There will be no discussions.

  •  PROTO-NAZIS (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:


  •  My cop story (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I was crossing the street from my office as I do multiple times a day, every day.  The walk sign was on and I was in the crosswalk when a cop car (without a siren or lights flashing) turns around the corner and almost hits me.  I jump back to avoid it and throw up my arms while giving the car a dirty look.  The car pulls over, the cop gets out and runs up to me while yelling, claiming he will arrest me for disrespecting an officer (whatever that is) and not obeying traffic laws (while walking in a crosswalk while the walk symbol is on).

    If I had taken this cops advice, I would have been hauled off to the police station, lost wages for not returning to work (and likely would have been fired too for being arrested while on lunch break), and probably more.  The only thing that prevented that from happening was me insisting that he was wrong, threatening to report him, and making sure there were witnesses nearby that he knew would agree with me.

    In my limited experience with cops, this seems to be the norm.  If the majority of cops are actually good, then I have yet to meet one of these good cops.  Most seem to like to abuse their power.  I'm just lucky that I am white and do not look threatening (although for most cops, those are probably the same thing).  I can't imagine how it is for other people who might be considered threatening looking based on the color of the skin or how tall big they are.

  •  Discuss? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PhilJD, snwflk, Damnit Janet

    If you stop me, and I have no idea why, do you expect me to just be a nice girl and let you do whatever you want?

    As a US citizen, I and everyone else has the right to be told why we are being detained at the time we are being detained. I see nothing in this that tells me you have informed me why you stopped me. And if there is a reasonable explanation for what you thought you saw, you have an obligation as the embodiment of the law and justice—which is, by definition, the Constitution of the United States—to allow me to provide that explanation and to review it without any bias.

    If subsequently you still feel there has been a violation of the law sufficient to place me under arrest or present me with a citation, we can proceed from there.

    Must I remind you, officer, that the law of the US is "innocent until proven guilty"?

    Dymitia I support irresponsible reading

    by Dymitia on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 02:27:58 PM PDT

  •  This is what fascism looks like today. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Damnit Janet

    This is what fascism looks like today.

  •  Hubris (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PhilJD, snwflk

    "I'm a cop . . . don't challenge me."

    Okay, you're a cop. You're not god. You're a frigging public SERVANT, not a master. Serve and protect? Who? What?

    I watch these incompetent buffoons as a former commissioner of fire and police. Our department was selected best in the state. Why? Because they were competent, trained and serving the community. A trained officer doesn't threaten the press or public. A trained officer doesn't point a weapon at anyone unless he expects to NEED to fire the weapon within seconds.

    Untrained officers mean an incompetent department head and worthless political leaders.

    He certainly would not have been a cop in my department.

  •  So we're all going to ignore that he's 100% right? (0+ / 0-)

    Look, this guy isn't talking to the killing-time-at-the-office crowd.

    Now, is that a good thing? Hell no. Is it a terrible indicator of where our police force is at? Absolutely.

    But that doesn't change the reality of the teenage minority male who needs to do exactly that so he DOESN'T GET SHOT.

    Save the righteous indignation for when they don't have your favorite espresso.

    •  He's 100% arrogant and fascist (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Damnit Janet

      "Favorite expresso"? What a Koch sucking Tea crap troll.

      The cop is dead WRONG, and he SHOULD be addressing the murdering cop. Period. This is just MORE blame the victim, cover up the crime.

      That cop is 100% ARROGANT.

  •  Cop bashing (0+ / 0-)

    Most of these comments are utter crap. Take a few isolated instances and tar all cops with them. How about no cops at all. Believe me, you would all be the first to complain if you called for help and no one was there for you. This is like the complaints about bad teachers. Since when did they and cops become our enemies. You try approaching a car with 3 or 4 people in it when you are alone and in the dark. Look up how many cops have been ambushed, shot, or assaulted.
    I am not implying that Michael Brown deserved to be killed by any means - however, he is 6'4" weighs 240 lbs and it is entirely unclear whether or not he was threatening the officer. Cops are justifiably afraid of being assaulted and having their weapons taken away and used against them.  The video of Brown's behavior in the convenience store indicates that he is certainly not above using his size to intimidate people. Can we please keep this horrible incident in perspective and not use this tragedy to bash all cops as vicious, insensitive bullies. It is simple NOT true any more than all black men are criminals or gang members.
    And by the way, where are the demonstrations when children in Chicago are being murdered every day by gang members who shoot indiscriminately in the streets of the South and West sides?

  •  While realistically the police officer is corre... (0+ / 0-)

    While realistically the police officer is correct. This should NOT be the norm. Police need to be taught not only to read the situation tactically. They should also be taught to control their reactions lawfully. It is not lawful to use force on a detained subject period. It doesn't matter what names they call you or spit on you. Every person is a citizen with full rights intact. Treating one person who happens to be white nicely and a black citizen as an animal is incredibly wrong. I want all police to act equally no matter the suspect. Justice is blind but the police seem to fail to be color blind.

  •  Yes, but trust you? No. (0+ / 0-)

    Some cops lie and ARE racist.  You can't believe everything they say - even in court, especially if one is a minority.  Justice is not equal.

  •  Cops are not gods nor are the elected officials (0+ / 0-)

    A cop is the servant of the people--not the bully billy club over the people. The cop is there to serve and protect, not order anyone around as if that person was a slave in chains.

    No person needs to give up basic rights. The people have the right to stand their ground in the face of a thug moving the world to a police state. If the cop fires into a crowd of peaceful protesters (that started the Revolutionary War in 1775 and enlarged it in 1776!) the protesters have the right to fire into the police force as the colonists fired into the ranks of the Red Coats.

    This nation has been bullied too long by rogue police, ranchers who think they are not subject to national laws, and goons like Cheney, Rice, Ernst, and Bush who make up wars based on lies (WMDs) and then buttress themselves and their evil empire by calling on militarized police who act as if they had no higher authority over them.

  •  I guess you're being sarcastic (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    StageRt, snwflk

    when you say "deep thoughts."  No deep thinking in those quoted words from a police officer. It is just like the wife batterer who says, "She could have prevented this if she watched that mouth of hers."

    Cops have the guns (and now military gear) and walk around with chips on their shoulders as if it were them who were under siege, not the populace.  There is no excuse and no justification of cops ever killing an unarmed person, and in 9 out of 10 times no excuse for killing a person who only has a knife.

    "The owners of this country know the truth: its called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it." ~ George Carlin

    by Gregory Wonderwheel on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 04:03:38 PM PDT

    •  or the formerly battered wife (0+ / 0-)

      who can finally stand up for her rights. sometimes "they are  [is snarky the word I'm looking for?].  it's a reaction necessary sometimes to fight the submission they have been forced to live under.

  •  I'm a Citizen. (0+ / 0-)

    The Bill of Rights already is aware of your Personal Power Trip Status. 7 of the Amendments referred to as the Bill of Rights were written specifically to RESTRICT your rights and protect mine.

    But, I'm MORE than that.
    I'm your Jury pool.
    I'm the guy who's going to listen to your testimony and compare what I hear to what I HEARD.

    Were you an ass to me?
    If so, I'm taking that into account when you testify so adroitly about how conscientious you were of the Defendant's Rights.

    If the evidence comes down to He said / He said the LAW tells me to give the Defendant the benefit of the doubt. On that stand your badge, gun, bluster, and noise don't mean SQUAT. He wants to stay out of jail. You want a good FitRep.

    So just remember that Mr. "I'm a Cop".
    I can make or break your case in court.
    You play square with me, I'll play square with you.
    Approach me with ATTITUDE, like the one expressed above, and your Prosecutor's job just got a whole lot harder.

  •  This is not a game. (0+ / 0-)

    Multiple times, repeat offenders push the boundaries only to throw up their hands, snicker and say "You got me again Pig" and laugh.   It is not a game, you will ultimately lose.

  •  Citizens have a right to demand to know the cau... (0+ / 0-)

    Citizens have a right to demand to know the cause for the stop, to ask if they are being detained, because if they are, they must then invoke their rights. Cops need to stop this belief that they can't be challenged. They too have rules to follow and people to answer to. They don't like educated citizens. Some citizens challenge them just for the sake of challenging them which is wrong. Legitimate questioning however, should be the duty of citizens. Know your rights, and use them as a responsible citizen in a calm, but clear way. Not all cops are against you. I have several cop friends who are good people. I've also dealt with power hungry, asses who think they are above reproach. Tread lightly in these tense times folks.

  •  I'm a racist with a gun; how don't u get it? (0+ / 0-)

    So to be clear, in the event there was any cop is gong to say that. Well, not in those exact words...

    But anyone with ability to read and look at any study on police stops will discover that the vast majority of stops are on minorities. (You like that play on the phrase?)

    Because: As 'we all know', most minorities commit most of the crimes because they 'lack moral values', 'were raised by single parents', have 'infrequent proper mentors', we got's space in a prison, and who ya gonna shoot? Besides, don't want them voting...

    Now that we have those things cleared up,,, why don't trained police possess the mental aptitude to comprehend that when they stop ANY OF US, they come off as bullies with badges?! (Hey, I've worked with 'em and they still come off that way to me... could it be they are selected because of those traits?) Nodding...

    To make clear, my point is not simply an issue with police against color but against US. Their basic inability to see human beings as anything other than perps and threats, or reporting parties is pathetic. They do it to their in-laws, their families, hey, they are racists!...what do we expect?

    And until we start directing our attention to where it will have an impact on society tolerating that imperious and domineering attitude, we get cops shooting unarmed people. Simple.
    And who do they stop most?

    Can't you pigs get through your heads your profiling and shooting us is kinda hurtful?? (Just speaking the lingo you get, copper.) And, hey, see you from the jury box, dude!

  •  TROOPS TO COPS (0+ / 0-)

    have enabled many a former soldier to resume their soldiering unfortunately with civilians. Bet many of them have PTSD, they act like they do anyway.

  •  You owe it to yourself to read... (0+ / 0-)

    ... the original in all its fulsome glory, as well as the 3500 comments so far, many of which are awesome.

    This is truly mind-boggling.

    Dutta's legitimate degrees are in Plant Science.  Pretty much a kissin' cousin of Police Science, when you ponder it a second.

  •  Last year I had several experiences with our local (0+ / 0-)

    cops, because of my son.  He was taking drugs, being abusive to us and our home, scaring the daylights out of us all.  I called the police several times.  Most of the time they were sympathetic, but couldn't do anything, even when he put a hole through my door and threw his daughter down the hall.  Finally I found out he had gotten hold of my ATM card and pin # and cleaned out my checking account.  I could then get him arrested.  He freaked out, threatened to kill himself.  They came imediately and talked very calmly to him, got him to give up, had him baker acted.  He was let out next day, he then came to my house dispite a restraining order and was arrested and charged with violating that order and with thieft from my account.  By the way, if a relative steals from you, you don't get the money back.  Banks don't care even if you prosecute.  Of course, my son is white, had he been black, it might have been different.  Cops in my area are very wary, after what happened 2 years ago. 2 policeman went to evict some sqatters in an abandoned house, not knowing it was a meth lab.  One went to the door, was shot at the door in the head and killed, the other nearly died from a shot to the arm that hit an artery and he nearly bled out.  Yes, their jobs can be very dangerous.  I have respect for them, but have seen too many who have become dangerous themselves, especially in my old neighborhood in Jacksonville.  I am surprised there hasn't been riots there, lots of police shootings there.  

  •  Right or wrong, this is an understanding that m... (0+ / 0-)

    Right or wrong, this is an understanding that most of us have deeply embedded in our heads. The real problem is that this is a slippery slope. My young daughter was stopped recently in Oklahoma last week and her boyfriend asked why the officer had suspicions and wanted to search the car. "what reason do you have for suspecting us of transporting drugs?" There were never to more clean-cut middle class kids. That was enough to escalate the situation and was seen as a provocation by the officer, who threatened to "drag them off to county jail". Things went downhill from there. He separated them, "you're telling different stories", "why are you scared if you haven't done anything wrong", "what do you think I'll find when I look in your trunk in your glove compartment?" - the whole tough-guy cop TV routine. Basically 45 minutes of complete harassment of my child. Cops need to be trained as to just what constitutes non-compliance - any question all about the process?

  •  ~eYe~Am~A~cItIzEn~EyE~ ~pAy~Ur~SaLaRy~ ~ReSpEcT... (0+ / 0-)

    ~eYe~Am~A~cItIzEn~EyE~ ~pAy~Ur~SaLaRy~



























  •  Salaries (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Who does pay them?

  •  The cop is right (0+ / 0-)

    I know this is going to be wildly unpopular but what the officer is saying does make sense. Why antagonize the officer when he can shoot you dead? Unless the officer just walks up and starts beating on you he or she will usually give some kind of warning. If you heed it you will probably get out of the situation unharmed. If he is violating your rights there are many ways for you to prove that without being belligerent and getting yourself smacked.

  •  Don't argur (0+ / 0-)

    Totally agree that 99.99999% of people getting in trouble with the Police ask for it. Give the Police a hard time and get tough love in return. The criminal element are the ones that ask for it and should always get it. Don't mess with the law unless you want the law to mess with you. Respect the law and it will respect you in almost every case. There will always be exceptions as with everything. That's when a judge and jury are required.

    •  What planet are YOU from? (0+ / 0-)

      I have NEVER seen it work that way. And I've had PLENTY of interaction wtih the police - more than my fair share and I'm NOT a criminal.

      Change the charter of corporations to serve the public interest BEFORE fiduciary concerns. 100% of Republicans and HALF the Dems are AGAINST We The People. We need TRUE Progressives, NOT Republican-Lite Dems - like Hillary, Pelosi, Feinstein...

      by RTIII on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 06:25:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why not just say "I am God, do as I say"? (0+ / 0-)

    Why not just say "I am God, do as I say"?

  •  Please read the whole article instead of reacting (0+ / 0-)

    I seriously recommend everyone read the entire article rather than simply react to the one paragraph.

    The author supports cameras on every cop and cameras in every cop car.  He unilaterally condemns racist and bully cops.
    Not being belligerent to a cop is not the same as blindly accepting every injustice.
    It means not taking out your anger or frustrations in places where it's not going to do any good, just complicate matters further.

  •  "Do What I Tell You?" (0+ / 0-)

    I guess that has replaced "To Serve And Protect".

    As it happens, we do pay his salary.

    I agree, there is no reason to start out getting confrontational with anyone, law enforcement included.  But I observe that with everyone I have the most casual contact with every day without the threat of clubs, tasers, pepper-spray, fists, or guns.

    UNLESS that person comes at me trying to make trouble, in which case I will "stand my ground".  That, or some version of it, is the law in most states.

  •  Reply to OP: TL;DR version... Act like a mafia ... (0+ / 0-)

    Reply to OP: TL;DR version...

    Act like a mafia thug (as they have been in Ferguson for some +40 years) I'm going to treat you like any other thug... uniform not withstanding.

    The simple fact is that with Ferguson cops now refusing to identify themselves in any meaningful way (badge #, name, I.D. #) a Citizen has precisely zero legitimate, usable way to determine that they're really cops.

    In the absence of a willingness to provide valid identification, I as a Citizen, am perfectly within my Rights, and common sense, to assume that this person is just a thug, rapist, robber, or murderer, who purchased a uniform online.

    Note that this is NOT a HYPOTHETICAL, far fetched situation. It has happened in California, Washington, Nevada, and Oregon over the years.

    When cops start (again) acting like they took a sacred Oath to uphold the Law, instead of "just the parts that are convenient to me" then I'll treat them that way.

    The oft seen "Thin Blue Line" of cops "protecting" one another from legitimate charges by use of perjury, lying, falsified evidence, false charges, Felony Assault and Battery of those who assert their Rights, confiscation and "dissapearance" of opposing evivence, and refusal to stand up and be counted when a fellow officer commits these crimes... nope, no respect from me!

    Bottom line: Treat me like a Citizen who has Rights that you may NOT violate, and with a modicum of respect, and I'll return the favor.

    Treat me as if I have no Rights, and I'll have your badge!

    Refuse to identify yourself upon my request, I will treat you (quite rightly and reasonably) as I would a criminal who just happened to buy, or find a uniform.

  •  Sunil Dutta is not for real (0+ / 0-)

    This guy wrote his own Wikipedia entry. Check it out. He has a bit of megalomania, a touch of paranoia and a really large ego. Being a fascist is just one of his problems.

  •  The issue is even deeper, look at what is happenin (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    This is all part of a deeper, underlying malignancy in society and our police state.

    Every day all across the nation, innocent family dogs are killed, sometimes even in front of their families and child owners, when police trespass and enter a premises, often when at the wrong address or when in pursuit of where they THINK a possible criminal ran - leaving grieving, stunned and devastated owners in their wake.

    Frequently the offending officer not only doesn't apologize, he or she is not reprimanded or punished and the graving family left with vet bills or burial costs. And the family is left with emotional scars that are as deep, or deeper than if they'd lost a human family member.

    These are usually NOT aggressive dogs, On the contrary, some have been TIED next to their vacationing owners in a public park, or in their own back yards or homes. Under those circumstance, even if they HAD been aggressive, they were doing their JOB to defend their home and family.

    But most are in reality just surprised by someone showing up in their home, and curious or even friendly, going up to greet a visitor, only to be shot, sometimes multiple times, at point blank range, frequently in front of their owners, who are begging them to stop shooting.

    In one recent account the dog was casually left to bleed to death on the sidewalk, while the 'officer' talked on his cellphone Another time the owners were PREVENTED from calling for veterinary help until it was far too late, and in another, a beloved,  elderly, blind tiny dog was dumped out of an owners car, at the side of a busy highway, despite the owners pleas to have a family member pick him up and bring him to safety instead. The charges of suspected drug dealing, btw, were DROPPED - But the innocent family still punished because they suffered the loss of their loved one.

    Obviously our country is in decline and in a moral/ethical/social tailspin.

    The problem is so serious there are now groups devoted to trying address this increasingly dangerous, violent acting out by our paid 'servants and protectors.

  •  LAPD.... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    How novel would it be for cops to be grown-up, ie, adults on the street? I guess that's a novel idea; people in control already know that they have the power therefore they do not need to resort to violence just because someone questions their authority. This LAPD person just outlined the bully syndrome. No one should wear a badge if they cannot control their "fears" or their tempers!

  •  WTF. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Damnit Janet

    This sounds like a piece from the Onion. Seriously, this guy is so hopped up on power he'd sound like he's on drugs in a normal country. And it's terrifying to think that somebody with such a victim-blaming mentality is supposed to be protecting rape survivors and domestic abuse survivors. Good to see that even the Washington Post commenters aren't having any of his bullshit, either.

  •  An interview with Officer Eric Cartman (0+ / 0-)

    No thoughts about the legality of his own actions, just a statement that you will be hurt if you do not respect his authority.

  •  Micheal Brown and others (0+ / 0-)

    I think sometimes cops just get so beaten down dealing with thugs year after year, and seeing weak-kneed judges put them back on the street, that they just lose it sometimes. They arrest someone involved in a crime, they are released or given a reduced charge, and now they are a dangerous person back on the streets, maybe looking for revenge.

  •  Talk about ego (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Damnit Janet

    So I'm confused. If I do anything that you don't like, say something that hurts your feelings, challenges your massive ego, or if I tell you that you that what you are doing is illegal, that gives you the right to shoot me?

  •  'Dont Challenge Me' (0+ / 0-)

    As a senior citizen, black female, I agree with the officer.  I have been stopped and demeaned by white officers.  I had plenty of negative thoughts that I never let translate into words, body language or anything that I thought would escalate the predicament I found myself in.  Sometimes I was wrong, sometimes I was not.  But I always stayed respectful and calm.  The officers always left feeling they were in full control of me and the situation.  I went home sometimes shaken, but safe and in one piece.  These are just the facts of black life on the streets.  I feel if I challenge a person with a great deal of power over my life, nobody is going to come to my rescue.  I have always been accepting of authority figures.  But I know officers have the full weight of power behind them to make you think I am a drug dealer and they had to shoot me.  I feel this is true, in spite of the fact that I do not smoke ANYTHING, and never have.  I do not drink.  I was never sent to the principle or detention.  Yet I know they have the power to make the world believe I did something aggressive and deserved to be shot.  So, to avoid having to hope strangers will believe I was or am a law-abiding citizen, I become 'Step-in-fetchet'.  I don't challenge law enforcement and nobody has to rescue me from their clutches.

    For innocent people who get accused of crimes, I grieve.  The weight of a police officers' statements and the justice system is sometimes unfavorable to them.  We as jurors sometimes have the fate of others in our hands, and sometimes we are swayed by officers who take unfair advantage of our trust in them.  Those people I pity, because I don't know what the answer is for them.  Just try to kiss butts and stay out of the way of those who have the power to change your life forever.

    •  And I grieve... (0+ / 0-)

      For you. I grieve that you have been forced to set aside your innate human dignity in order to merely survive. I grieve that you have had your soul scarred by being forced to submit to such humiliation. I grieve that there is nothing I can do except write in opposition to it, vote for laws to prevent it and occasionally drag my lazy white ass into the streets to protest it.

      It's not right, it never was right and it will never be right that you should endure this. Nor is it right that I can only offer my empathy and my outrage. Please forgive my incompetence. As a fellow American, you deserve better.

  •  This is no different than the workplace - obey ... (0+ / 0-)

    This is no different than the workplace - obey now, grieve later. The officer is providing real world guidance on how to stay safe in the middle of chaos. With anger rising, the cops first thought is going to be protecting themselves and their comrades. It's us vs them. Lodge your complaints with management, not them. Sue after they are safely disarmed.

    If you are in the peaceful protests and you see people looting, take the looters down. Don't let them start a riot because then everyone's at risk for brute force.

  •  The Cops are, usually, the Good guys (0+ / 0-)

    What happened to Michael Brown was a tragedy, and possibly a crime.  There should be a full investigation.
    What the Los Angeles police officer said is very good advice.  I taught my children that when stopped by the police, do not argue.  Save the argument for when you are in front of a judge, not on the street.  They, and I, have been stopped by the police.  We behaved politely, some time was wasted, but nobody was hurt.  
    There are people in every profession who should not be there.  This does not make all members of the profession bad people.  In a fire, or a car accident or any serious danger, where do you look for help?

  •  Sounds reasonable (1+ / 0-)

    Having read the article it's pretty much common sense. You treat a policeman the same way you treat anyone - with courtesy and respect. You don't escalate. You don't threaten. When is it ever a good idea to do those things? I don't get the immediate hate for the article and the author. It's not constructive, it doesn't help move discussion or dialogue along and contributes to the dehumanizing of folks. You don't want police to dehumanize you, you don't want them to paint every one with the broad brush of 'all black young men are __' - Are there bad ones? Of course there are, there are bad ones everywhere. Are they all bad? Well if that was the case then we really are doomed. You know, be the human being you want others to be.

  •  cops (0+ / 0-)

    while what this guy says has a ring of truth- probably b/c I am white- I don't think with many swaggering gun toting cops "behaving" would matter

    We need to address the issues of poor education/ghettos/substance abuse and POVERTY in this country-  

    if you have nothing to loose or gain, you do not participate in the behavior mod program the cops request

    As someone who did sits in, marched etc for Civil Rights it is sad and tragic that we are still at this violent point in the USA

    is it the wars, our lack of attention to the cities, the 1% convincing us to all be against each other and vote for people who do not give a rats ass about poor or working families?
    Surely this is destroying the town and how will that work out for the families there over the long haul. Many people protesting and arrested are not from there. And the kids cannot get to school b/c of the violence

    I do not have an answer- condolences to the family and friends on Michael Brown

  •  Good Point... (0+ / 0-)

    You make a good point  however looking at how the Ferguson PD have handled all of this it seems like they were used to overly exerting their authority.  At what point do cops realize and understand that they are PEACE OFFICERS not LAW ENFORCERS, the militaristic style in which they've carried out crowd control.  The weapons, the uniforms seriously?  Also the street where Mr. Brown was gunned down on doesn't look like a busy street, it appears to be a typical neighborhood street, is jaywalking that big of a deal? Well I guess it is for a town that gets most of its revenue from nickel and diming the citizens with citations for everything under the sun...

  •  I think the legal justified force should be... (0+ / 0-)

    revoked and cops who shoot people have to serve time just like anyone else. If the prisons do their jobs of keeping the peace in prison, the cops should not have to fear for their lives while doing time.

  •  Field Stops (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    snwflk, Damnit Janet

    So that's what they call them; field stops. Over 800,000 of them in New York City in the last couple of years. Stop and frisk they called it. Only thing is, it was almost always minority men who were stopped, and almost always without any just cause. Policing is out of control in our country and it's getting worse. The courts have not helped by allowing our rights to get nibbled away. What ever happened to probable cause anyway?

  •  And by "challenge" I mean... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Damnit Janet

    ... look at me, walk away from me, wear a hoodie, laugh, yelp, asphixiate, scuf my shoe with you facial pearcings while i remodel your dentition, allow your bloody nose to mess up my shirt as I choke hold you, own a phone, tan darker then me, continue to breath when I shoot you 6 times. Especiallywhen I put one in your skull. But worse than all of the above, be the kind of smartass who knows his fourth amendment rights.

  •  I'll summarize: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    snwflk, Damnit Janet

    Blame The Victim - it's ALWAYS their fault.

    ...Just ask any cop, especially one from LA - or Ferguson!

    Change the charter of corporations to serve the public interest BEFORE fiduciary concerns. 100% of Republicans and HALF the Dems are AGAINST We The People. We need TRUE Progressives, NOT Republican-Lite Dems - like Hillary, Pelosi, Feinstein...

    by RTIII on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 05:06:52 PM PDT

  •  Blaming the victimn (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Once again, cops blaming the victims for the cops' over the top violent reactions. It's already too late for that lie to take root.

    Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed. Everything else is public relations." -George Orwell

    by darkmoonman on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 05:07:16 PM PDT

  •  Cop needs lesson himself (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Damnit Janet

    I'm a citizen. If you don't want me to get so scared I have nothing to lose, if you yourself don't want to get killed by someone just generally angry at cops, then quit shooting unarmed black youth like white supremacist Ku Klux Klanners, then COMPLETELY covering up the investigation, releasing unrelated, crowd hostile stupid statements about the victim, hiding the murdering cop, not charging the murdering cop, not even putting out a report detailing what the murdering cop did to Brown - then wake up your OWN self. This ain't brown shirt, KKK Alabama in 1958. Treat citizens with RESPECT, or GET NONE.

    Get real, or get the hell off the force.

  •  cooperation???? (0+ / 0-)

    Do what I say or I"ll shoot/tase/mace/beat you... That doesn't sound like cooperation... I am not your enemy and YOU have no right to attack or abuse me EVER,,,, If that has changed, then let me know and I'll be fully prepared for our next encounter...just like YOU are.

  •  When it's less than 60 seconds... (0+ / 0-)

    ... from "Get the eff of the street" to dead in the street, I do have to suggest there's just the smallest chance the cop may have overreacted.

  •  Who decided it is a capital offense (0+ / 0-)

    to challenge, run away from, ignore or taunt a police officer?

    •  The cops do... (0+ / 0-)

      ...backed up by the courts.

      Change the charter of corporations to serve the public interest BEFORE fiduciary concerns. 100% of Republicans and HALF the Dems are AGAINST We The People. We need TRUE Progressives, NOT Republican-Lite Dems - like Hillary, Pelosi, Feinstein...

      by RTIII on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 06:27:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Mutual respect..... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dragonhawk1959, snwflk

    In a perfect world citizens should do what police ask when they are asked.  However, if it was a perfect world police wouldn't shoot citizens for jaywalking and copping attitude.  Nor would they be arresting reporters.  They would know the limits of their authority. Police would be protecting and serving the whole population.

    I do think the patriotic thing to do is to critique my country. How else do you make a country better but by pointing out its flaws? Bill Maher

    by gtghawaii on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 05:16:47 PM PDT

  •  And then sue them later for damages? (0+ / 0-)

    I don't think so.

    A cop's job is to control the situation and preserve the rights life and limb of everyone involved.

    Arresting people is what cops do, while being arrested is for most people a once-in-a-lifetime stressful experience.

    The officer is responsible, just as s/he is responsible for any accidents that occur whilst speeding around with lights and siren.

    The first rule is ALWAYS, don't threaten deadly force unless and until it is absolutely necessary. Your job is to protect the innocent public, and a suspect is indeed part of the innocent public until the court says otherwise.

    This is the vital difference between police and soldier.

    A police officer is expected to sacrifice (if necessary) their life to protect the public, including suspects.

    A soldier's first duty is to survive to kill enemies.

    This is why training police in military procedures and weapons is a major error. Their mission is not military.

    I have been arrested, roughly, while not resisting beyond my request to see the warrant (which was a blank sheet of paper, handed to me before I was tackled to the ground.)

    I do not talk back to police nor to I confront them, and thirty years ago that was sufficient--not today, any questioning of the officer's intent is taken as 'resistance.'

    I have a friend who was arrested (and beaten) on a quiet street in St, Paul during the GOP convention while quietly looking through his backpack. When the police discovered he was only 16 they released him--there is no arrest report.

    Confronted by three angry drunks in my small town, I called 911 and eventually the police arrived, talked to everyone, and told ME "You can go. You've done nothing wrong." However I was the one whose clothing was torn by these creeps who were also released. My 'crime' testing out a new video camera in a bar.

    Somewhere, about the time the stopped being 'police' and became 'law enforcement,' 'protect and serve' became 'pummel and serve yourself.'

    A society based upon law only works when the majority of people agree with and follow the majority of laws and there are no people who receive special treatment.

    Money or political power now provide exemption from the law far too often.

    When a society gets this unbalanced, historically there is a revolution.

    It's been going for some time now, under the surface, but the increasingly egregious actions of the wealthy and powerful are driving a large undercurrent of dissatisfaction which will not go away without changes.

    Even the 1% (who are a symptom more than a cause, the 0.1% are the cause,) are beginning to realize that wealthy and power will not protect them from the 99% once they are mobile.

    The key to avoiding revolution lies in the populace having more to lose by revolting than by enduring. When sufficient numbers have nothing left to lose, revolt happens.

    We need to redistribute the gains in wealth due to increased productivity among those who created that increase.

    A century ago we fought for an 8 hour work day. Today most work 10 or more hours at lower actual wages.

    Reducing the work week would create jobs, raising wages to a reasonable level would boost the economy--and profits.

  •  The Michael Brown Killing & 'Lethal Weapon" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I don't know why this killing triggered the memory of this scene from the movie 'Lethal Weapon', but it has always stuck with me. Unfortunately it is only a movie.

    This is a scene from the 1987 movie ‘Lethal Weapon’; the characters in this scene are Roger Murtaugh (played by Danny Glover) and Martin Riggs (played by Mel Gibson). Roger Murtaugh, who is a black cop is chastizing Martin Riggs, who is a trigger happy white cop. Roger has just brought down a perpetrator by shooting him in the shoulder instead of just blowing the guy away.

    Roger Murtaugh: See how easy that was? Boom, still alive. Now we question him. You know why we question him? Because I got him in the leg. I didn't shoot him full of holes or try to jump off a building with him.

    Martin Riggs: Hey, that's no fair. The building guy lived.

    •  True, Riggs had a big problem controlling his v... (0+ / 0-)

      True, Riggs had a big problem controlling his vindictive anger & vengeance, but at least he confined the laser beam to folks who had done something wrong. A cop with no valid reason for pulling out his gun and training it on a target has less motivation to bring in the subject for questioning.

      It sickens me to understand that on some level, the cop who took down Mike Brown split second reasoned it'd be a hell of a lot easier to kill (thus silence) his unarmed victim than bring him back to the station still talking and come up with some viable story on why he'd even stopped him, let alone account for the marks on the boys neck and how the ammunition from his own gun had lodged itself in the boy's chest.

  •  If you want respect and cooperation, show respect (0+ / 0-)

    "Even though it might sound harsh and impolitic, here is the bottom line: if you don’t want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you. Don’t argue with me, don’t call me names, don’t tell me that I can’t stop you, don’t say I’m a racist pig, don’t threaten that you’ll sue me and take away my badge. Don’t scream at me that you pay my salary, and don’t even think of aggressively walking towards me. Most field stops are complete in minutes. How difficult is it to cooperate for that long?"

    To the Los Angeles police officer: This depends on what you are asking of me. If it is within your right as a law enforcement officer to ask it, I will co operate, but you are not God and I have constitutional rights as an American.

    If you want my respect, treat me with respect.

    You are a member of law enforcement, not a member of the Gestapo! If you act like a member of the Gestapo, you will meet much more resistance than if you make the same request of me, but in doing so also treat me with the respect that I deserve.

    If you want the respect that you deserve, show me the same courtesy.

    I grew up around many law enforcement officers. In the last twenty or thirty years the way some members of law enforcement treat the public has changed, and NOT for the better. Some NEVER show the same respect that they are DEMANDING.

    Respect is a two way street. Show it, and you receive it. Do Not show it and you Do Not deserve it!!

  •  Put yourself in the other person's shoes (0+ / 0-)

    To understand this issue from all sides you have to imagine yourself in the other person's shoes.  There are a wide variety of shoes you have to consider.

    As a white male who gets stopped by the police once every 5 or 1o years, I have no problem giving utmost deference to the police officer (who has a gun) and showing that officer every respect whether he or she deserves it or not.  As a result, almost every interaction I have had with a policeman has ended quite well for me and for the policeman.

    The other set of shoes I can imagine is that of a black man who may get stopped for similar reasons that I get stopped every 5 or 10 years, but it happens maybe several times a year, or a month, or a week, or even a day.  I know, and he probably knows what the right way to handle the situation would be, but can we expect him to have the saintly control to keep his emotions in check?  Of course the other advantage that this black man may not have is that I can expect the police officer to treat me civilly if I show the proper deference.  It works nearly 100% of the time for me.  I doubt a black man could get that percentage of success.  Also I have never had to contemplate the loss of a job because I was delayed by an unwarranted police stop, nor the issue of protecting my family from the results of such a stop.  If a person is faced with that situation, their ability to control themselves might get compromised.

    Putting myself in the shoes of the policeman or woman, I can see that he or she is dealing with a different population of people than I have to regularly deal with.  I can tolerate a lot of disrespect, because I am pretty sure of myself and my own value as a human being.  One would hope a policeman could also tolerate that disrespect.  As a parent, I can tolerate some angry words from my child, because I know that things can get said that are not really meant in the heat of an argument.  Apparently some police officers cannot even tolerate that in their own families.  On the other hand, I don't have to tolerate the constant level of disrespect that some officers might face depending on the particular job they find themselves in.  The odds of the dangers for me of allowing disrespect may be a lot lower than what a police officers faces.

    So, in the face of all of what we have learned by standing in different sets of shoes, we need to figure out what set of standards we want to set for both the police and the public.

  •  Based on the above quote from the cop in LA, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Damnit Janet

    I would say that most cop shops across the US of A need to completely revamp their training programs. Silent, sheep-like submission is what they seek, and that is NOT what we have to give them. This is unbelievably horrible.

  •  Point heard. Loud and clear. Is that only when ... (0+ / 0-)

    Point heard. Loud and clear. Is that only when you're wearing your uniform?

  •  I'm sorry but your satement (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Damnit Janet

    is pure BS. Just what authoruty appointed you as judge, jury and executioner.  In a world not too far in the past you assholes were supposted to be there to serve and protect.

  •  yeah, well ... (0+ / 0-)

    I guess cops don't worry about these carry laws that allow every nut cake to have a concealed weapon and let's not forget their "don't tread on me" mindset.  The second amendment nut cakes will soon outnumber the police and then what will this authority figure fool have to say?

  •  Tried before didn't work. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Atlanta, Selma, Mississippi, Democratic convention etc.

    My extended family is foster to adopt.  When we gather it's like a mini UN,

    Recently my grand kids were playing BB in the drive,  local LEO showed up and sent half the kids home.  

    What to guess the skim tone of those who were allowed to continue playing?

    Not long ago two DALLAS TX LEO filed sworn statements to the effect a shooting victim was being aggressive and threading the LEO.  One cop shot 4 time one hit from 15+ feet away.

    Turns out the video put the lie to the entire story.  Seems the man shot was standing perfectly still with his hands at his side.

    Perhaps you and yours best review the oath you took when you were commissioned.

  •  How quaint. "BIG BAD ME!" Half the officers I s... (0+ / 0-)

    How quaint. "BIG BAD ME!" Half the officers I see have a similar attitude problem. I've known several people who could take the average officer at close range. And I've known of two officers who shot someone without sufficient provocation and in circumstance where the man was going nowhere!

  •  What an awful and irresponsible headline & article (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Poor in a Rich World

    Barbara Morrill should be ashamed of what she has posted, here. And, by the way, to both be clear, and to get this out of the way early: I am NOT a right-winged conservative, or a cop. I'm as left-wing as anyone here...

    ...but I'm also no kid: I'm 58 years old, and have extensive experience working with law enforcement, and law offices for both the prosecution and the defense. So I know what are the facts; and what is the cold hard truth...

    ...and said truth is NOT as the headline of this story, or the way in which its body was presented, would clearly like everyone to believe. Shame, again, on Barbara Morrill for manipulatively presenting it that way.

    What everyone keeps forgetting -- keeps leaving out of discussions like this -- is the simple concept of exigency.

    ex·i·gent |ˈeksijənt
    adjective: pressing; demanding; requiring immediate attention; needing to be dealt with immediately

    What people -- particularly people of color, I've noticed -- seem to forget is that the time to make the point that the police officer is treating you unfairly (if, in fact, s/he is) is not in the exigency (and heat) of the moment when said officer is, for whatever reason (but likely according to his her training), ordering you to stop, or go down to the ground, or to freeze, or to drop whatever's in your hand, etc.  In the heat of that moment, all citizens -- no matter the color of their skin -- MUST follow the police officer's orders.

    If they're unfair or, worse, illegal orders, then there will be time to make that case before a judge; and to hold accountable the officer for his/her bad behavior. But in the heat -- in the exigency -- of the moment, all of us, no matter who we are, no matter what our race or gender, MUST do what the officer says. Period.

    Many, many, many police officers are red-necked jerks whose power has gone to their heads; and many of them are corrupt; and many of them are racist; and so many times when people -- particularly minorities -- think that the officer is treating them unfairly, said people/minorities may very well be right. But in the heat -- in the exigency -- of the moment is not the time to make that argument; to be right about that.

    That's what courts of law are for; and lawyers; and judges... at a later time, when no lives could possibly be at stake. Police officers are trained to ensure that no one -- especially police offers -- are hurt or killed. They are trained to put their own safety and lives first, ahead of anyone else. If the suspect in any manner threatens a police officer's safety or life, said police officer is trained to use whatever force is necessary to get the suspect to comply... including, if necessary in the exigency of the moment, lethal force.

    And the Courts have found that when the officer follows procedure -- follows his/her training -- then use of even lethal force is both necessary and legal. And following procedure means bringing to the moment only the force necessary to keep the suspect from harming or killing a police officer. Once the suspect brandishes a weapon, then the officer, if s/he cannot get the suspect to drop it, and/or if the suspect approaches the officer with said weapon, then it is a near certainty that the officer will draw his/her weapon (if it's not already drawn) and shoot the suspect...

    ...and police officers, for their safety, are trained NEVER to shoot to wound. If the moment calls for the discharge of a police officer's weapon, then s/he may only shoot to kill. Period.

    And that's the way it must be, or we would never get smart and quality people to become police officers; and, believe me, police officers need to be the best the society has to offer.

    Yes, there are some (remarkably few, truth be known) bad officers out there; and so, yes, there will occasionally be bona fide abuses; and when you're on the receiving end of such abuse, it's hard not to rebel, and argue about it, and tell the officer s/he has no right to do what s/he's doing...

    ...but the time to win that argument (and, believe me, with the help of a good lawyer, it's quite winnable, in the end) during the heat -- the exigency -- of the moment.

    During that moment, we must all just comply. Period. Then, later, we are free to make the officer wish he'd never messed with us... a court of law, where this nation's founders always intended for such matters to be both heard and decided.

    And, yes, of course I know that lawyers are expensive; and that public defenders are often not very good; and that the people who tend to be most abused by police officers tend to be those who can least afford good legal representation.  And that's a huge problem...

    ...but it's still not justification to try to win the point out in the street, in the heat -- the exigency -- of the moment. In that moment, we simply must comply, so that neither we, nor the officer, are in any danger. It's very difficult, I realize, but it's how our entire system is set up. We cannot have such arguments settled in the chaos of the streets. Again, that's what courts of law are for; what lawyers and judges are for; what juries are for.

    The officer whom Ms Morrill quotes is simply explaining that. He's simply saying that for the short few moments of exigency, when the officer cannot know if the suspect is a danger to him, the suspect must simply cooperate; follow orders; make no quick moves; just comply.

    That's all the officer is saying. Once the officer has control of the situation, and is certain that neither s/he, nor the suspect, nor any bystanders are in any jeopardy, then, and ONLY then may any discussion of who's right and who's wrong begin... continued and completed in a court room.

    Shame, then, on Ms Morrill for trying to slant/paint the picture another way. Shame, indeed, on her.

    Now, all that said, there is, in America, a second and exacerbating problem: the militarization of police.

    There is no question that it has gone too far. Since 9/11, police departments think their SWAT and/or riot teams need to be as heavily armed and armored as the military. And that's not, at all, what this nation's founders had in mind; hence the reason that the US military is expressly forbidden from maintaining order or policing on US soil.

    When local police departments outfit as if they were military, then it effectively end-runs that prohibition; and that's not right. And it is the increasing militarization of police, and the public's negative reaction to that, which is the proximate cause of much of the strife in Ferguson, Missouri.

    If the officer in Missouri really and truly gunned-down Michael Brown while he was surrenduring, then it doesn't matter if just moments before Brown was struggling in the car with the officer, or that a shot got fired during said struggle. The law says that once a suspect converts from aggression to surrender -- or if s/he runs -- then neither citizen nor police may simply gun him/her down. While the officer may have been legally justified to kill Brown moments earlier, in the exigency of a struggle in the police car, once Brown moved from that to surrender, then the police officer was not justified in pulling the trigger, no matter how worked-up he was from the earlier struggle.

    And so if all of that is the case, then, yes, the officer should probably be prosecuted...

    ...but, again, that place to settle that is in a Court of Law, not in the street; and not during moments of exigency.

    The second shooting, today, is -- at least if it really happened exactly as the police officer described it during the press conference -- is completely justified. Contrary to what people who are already worked-up over the Brown shooting are saying about today's shooting being excessive force, it was, apparently, not. The suspect was brandishing a knife, making threats, and approaching the officer on the passenger side of the police car with a deadly weapon being brandish in a threatening manner. The officer commanded him, repeatedly to stop, and when the suspect ignored him, and came withing striking distance of the officer with the knife, the officer rightly used lethal force and made the suspect dead.

    If we don't allow our officers to do that -- that is, as long as they're following their training and proper procedure -- then we will never be able to have officers who are smart, and who can really and truly protect and serve.

    Please be reasonable. Please.

    The Brown shooting, it sounds like, was a bad one. And, if so, then the officer who killed him needs to be held accountable, IN A COURT OF LAW.

    Today's shooting, though, if it really did happen as police described it, was what police call "a good shoot." It was bona fide self-defense on the part of the trigger-pulling officer. It is simply because it happened in the face of the protests over the Brown shooting that everyone is screaming "excessive force." It was not. An officer is alive, today, because he followed procedure and defended himself.

    None of that is to say that the police in Ferguson, Missouri aren't sometimes bad at what they do; or that they're not corrupt, or racist, or whatever else they're being accused of by protesters. But, again, the time to make that case is NOT in the heat -- the exigency -- of the moment.

    Please, again, be reasonable.


    Gregg L. DesElms
    Napa, California USA
    gregg at greggdeselms dot com

  •  Very revealing comments coming from an officer ... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Barb G, Damnit Janet, meinoregon

    Very revealing comments coming from an officer of the law in a modern, in a so-called, free society. Total obedience, don't dare speak any hostile words, make any sudden moves, even though you are not under arrest, or I will beat you or shoot you. Doesn't sound very "free" to me. Who is allowed to become policeman in our society really needs to be looked at. He sounds more like a policeman in a dictatorship. Policing was never like this while I was growing up. Today's cops are short tempered and paranoid, not the regular guys, the Dad of the kid in your class, that I knew.

  •  Look up the definition of fascism and the above... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Damnit Janet

    Look up the definition of fascism and the above statement is perfectly described.


    I THINK SO...

  •  Don't Challenge Me (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Oh Mary Oh

    I agree with mr 'I'm a Cop'.  I am a 66 year old black female. I have no authority figure complex.  When I encounter the police, it is over a moving violation.  Period.  I have never smoked ANYTHING, don't drink, fight or steal.. Yet I am believe mr 'I'm a Cop' could convince you that I had broken one or several of those laws.  I feel his account would fly in your minds, in the media and maybe even with some people I call 'friend'.  When I am pulled over I do my best 'step-in-fetch-it' impersonation.  I never permit my negative thoughts to manifest.  Rear ended by a white male drunk driver, I was completely ignored.  The white drunk driver received all the solicitation.  Yet I decided to stay calm and quiet.  The officers left having felt they were in control of me and the situation at all times.  I always act this way, right or wrong.  It's not fun, but several times it has kept things from escalating.  I prefer that to being jailed, beaten or killed, knowing the officer's account will almost always be considered the truth.

    For innocent people who are falsely accused, I don't know how to advise them against this devastation.  Even with our laws and our justice system, I feel we can all be put in pickle of a situation at some point in time.

  •  These cops think a lot of themselves, (0+ / 0-)

    Could a person not speak English and not understand what you are screaming???? Not asking at all, but literally demanding!
    Could the person have some infirmities, that prohibits them from dropping to the floor. I could not get on the floor without assistance since my foot is fused and I have an ankle and knee replacement.  I am not black, so I probably would not be shot for disobeying a direct order.
    They sadly see the world in ONLY black and white, no shades of grey, when the world is filled with a million shades of grey.
    And just because a police officer tells you to do something, does not mean they have the authority. We have the right to request if we being arrested, and for what, and what are we being charged with?  If they can not answer those questions, then most likely can stand passively with your hands in full view. And ask them to please get a supervisor to the scene.

    We have turned into a police state, since Dubya took so many of our rights away in name of Homeland security. Time to take our rights back, we are innocent until proven guilty.

    •  More accurately, they only see black and GREY (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Oh Mary Oh

      They see only "bad people" and "potentially bad people", and they react accordingly.

      Whether this is bad selection, bad training, a bad cop culture, or all of the above, it is what it is.

      If it's
      Not your body,
      Then it's
      Not your choice
      And it's
      None of your damn business!

      by TheOtherMaven on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 09:29:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Dear officer, (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Barb G, meinoregon, Oh Mary Oh, fylgja

    I work in the criminal justice system. I've worked with a lot of police officers, a few of whom feel the way you do, most of whom would be embarassed by your comments. I know your job is challenging, and I know sometimes you are afraid.

    That is why you get training. That is why you stay sober when you might encounter people who are not. That is why you don't get emotionally involved when engaging people who may be in crisis. That is why you swear an oath to protect and serve. Remember, you chose this profession. You said you could be held to a higher standard.

    That is why you get the benefit of the doubt when you resort to force. That is why civilians never get the benefit of the doubt when accused of assulting you.

    Your comments about your willingness to betray that trust underscore what we have seen in Ferguson. The system is broken. We need to be able to trust you.

    A small minority of cops are routinely allowed to break the law with no consequences. I hope the next time you use excessive force you are held accountable, because you don't sound like a cop, you sound like a coward and a thug. I hope you are taken off the street before you hurt someone or someone hurts you.

  •  Didn't we fight a war (0+ / 0-)

    years ago so that we'd have some rights?  Aren't those rights listed in the Constitution?  

    Isn't one of those rights the right to a trial by a jury of our peers?

    Is there any reason to believe that any jury of our peers is going to want to find someone guilty of a crime if they defend their Constitutional rights and an asshat in a uniform gets hurt (or even killed)?

    Before someone accuses me of encouraging or inciting violence against cops, let me assure you that I'm not.  I don't think aggression is ever an answer.  

    I do think that, however unfortunate it may be, that sometimes the only answer when you're being pushed past all reasonable limits is to push back.

    All I'm really saying is that WE THE PEOPLE pay police to protect and serve.  Not to do as they wish.  Not to make war on the people paying them. Not to even pay attention to an idiot who could say crap like:

    "Even though it might sound harsh and impolitic, here is the bottom line: if you don’t want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you. Don’t argue with me, don’t call me names, don’t tell me that I can’t stop you, don’t say I’m a racist pig, don’t threaten that you’ll sue me and take away my badge. Don’t scream at me that you pay my salary, and don’t even think of aggressively walking towards me. Most field stops are complete in minutes. How difficult is it to cooperate for that long?"

    All I'm saying is that if I'm ever on a jury of someone on trial for defying or fighting a cop who was flagrantly violating their Constitutional rights, there's no possible way I would ever consider that person guilty of any crime.  Even if in the course (or because of) that defiance or fighting, the cop got hurt or even killed.  

  •  quoth the bacon,,,,,,,,,, (0+ / 0-)

    "if you don’t want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you.

  •  I have stared into the barrel of a police gun. ... (0+ / 0-)

    I have stared into the barrel of a police gun. Regardless of what we like or don't, your first thought should be, "how do I diffuse this officer's fear and mental picture of me. It's called survive to live another day. As you can tell, I was successful. Please take this to heart.

  •  Dominant/submissive sex game? Really? (0+ / 0-)

    It sounds  like the officer thinks his wearing a police uniform entitles him to play  a permanent  dominant/ submissive sex game with anyone he encounters.  

    It don't think that is what is sanctioned by the term "police power".

  •  He says that if you do exactly what I tell you, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    snwflk, Damnit Janet, Oh Mary Oh

    you won't get hurt.  Yeah, sure.

    Over the years women have been raped by cops that stopped them for traffic stops in areas that don't have much traffic.  We should do anything a cop tells us to do????????

  •  With the attitude evinced by this officer and a... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    objkshn, Oh Mary Oh

    With the attitude evinced by this officer and also a large percentage of the ones in Ferguson,the biggest concern I have is all the military assault rifles pointed directly at the populace. Have they ignored all the lessons given in our recent history? A massacre at Kent State should ring bells very loudly. The caliber of these assault rifles are enough that they could kill whoever is hit but also others after exiting from their first victims. This is not only dangerous to others that they are pointed at, but also act as an antagonistic approach when dealing with a large crowds. It sends a statement that they aren't worried about the safety of anyone but only intimidating in a terroristic fashion. The LRADs can cause permanent damage to anyone within 100 feet with it turned on full.

  •  Or else what? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Damnit Janet, Oh Mary Oh

    Oh yeah.  You'll murder me.

  •  Police (0+ / 0-)

    The attitude that is taken in this article is exactly the reason most people hate the police in this day and age. I have no respect for them. They have become bullies and thugs who think they have unlimited power. They do not. I choose to exercise my 4th and 5th Amendments rights and refuse to talk to them.

  •  White woman got handcuffed for reading NYT! (0+ / 0-)

    In Manhattan’s Landlord/Tenant court, I (white chick) ticked off a (wh) male cop in court by reading~~he handcuffed 1 of my hands to armrest & confiscated NYT; not asking I put newsprp down & no warning. I now believe even cops have bad days [Discovery’s “Manhunters” teach ya lots]. “Interfering w/cop or not heeding cop’s instructions” (to disperse or do sometg cop says~~even if s/he’s wrong, doesn’t know law/constitutional provisions…all that’s to be worked out in court; u must listen to a cop who’s wrong is the law in 50 states).  Lying to fed’l official [FBI, U.S. Marshal, ICE, et al.] is lawbreaking [ask the icky Martha Stewart]. My family, friends, colleagues & I marched, bled, picketed, got blisters, went to court for blks & Latinos yet all I hear is namecalling from the people we tried to help. These frenzied, rambling tirades are hurtful & stoopid [sic]. How to morph into smart? Stay in school. NYT’s Chls Blow [8/13]: “Students of color are suspended more than white students. 50% of blk guys graduate. 70% chance that blks w/o h.s. diploma end in prison by his mid-30s. Parents can teach kids how to interact w/authority.”  2-1/2 generations of Affirmative Action haven’t persuaded minorities to study; alas, they flunk out or drop out; then steal for a living--sometimes hurt or kill to survive.  Summer b4 college [even vocational school where Brown was accepted], u read--yes, wkends too [u've got gobs of competition & must catch up; Brown never got A’s]; u learn more than peers [Asians have h.s. drop-out rate of 0.001% & are leaping over blks/Latinos in ONE generation] ’cuz u’ve read the job mkt stinks for Millennials; u read that u need lungs to breathe & don’t swipe or smoke Cigarillos. The minorities in our NYC apt bldg yell in halls/lobby/mailrm/laundry, drop sticky pizza/soda/candy/gum wrappers onto hall carpets; if u beef, they scream “racism!” Just behave, respect laws [or change 'em] & a cop won’t have a reason to approach u…not w/gazillions of cameras around.  Zimmerman & O.J. got away w/murder.  Michael Brown is a thief.  He didn’t just assault--French “to beat” = battery.  This isn’t blame the innocent victim--Brown’s a triple felon [stealing & battery] in absentia--it’s on tape.  Walking down the middle of the street [scads of witnesses]?  More lawbreaking [3rd legal count].  How ignorant!

  •  baby, don't hurt me (0+ / 0-)

    My civil rights, my pen, my right to protest trump your baton.

    With better training, you can learn proper police techniques and RESTRAINT.  

  •  I'm a citizen. Act like a pro not a bully (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Oh Mary Oh, fylgja

    You stop me. I don't know why. You are a white man with a gun and a badge. I am neither. At this moment you have the power. Instead of cursing at me, using profanity, you, Mr. Cop, can address me like you would anyone else. Just because I am black, doesn't give you permission to F bomb me.

    If I ask you why, you, as a professional Law enforcement officer, are obligated to tell me why or if I am free to leave or  under arrest. That is the rule of law that you are sworn to uphold. That is not an affront to your manhood or your status as a LEO. It is your obligation to uphold the law.

    You have a dangerous job. I respect that. You must go into the most benign situation with heightened awareness and suspicion. But you also know --if you are honest--that aggressive speech can provoke aggressive response, verbally from citizens.

    Respect begets respect.

    "Doubt kills more dreams than failure ever will."

    by never forget 2000 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 07:20:04 PM PDT

  •  Read the original piece at the Washington Post (0+ / 0-)

    (at the "deep thoughts" link).  Taken out of the larger essay's context these instructions sound more thuggish than intended.

    Which is not to excuse thuggish police behavior...

  •  I read a couple hundred replies and none mentio... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Oh Mary Oh

    I read a couple hundred replies and none mentioned discipline standards training and monitoring. Here in Denver we have seen the results of the lack of such. We also have an ineffectual civil monitor program. The city has just lost a 3.25 million dollar suit for abusive treatment. Maybe we'll see a change . . .

  •  Judge Dred (0+ / 0-)

    I am Judge Dred.. I am The Law!!!!
    How do you plea.. " I am innocent. "
    I knew you were going to say that.
    I find you guilty.  Time for your punishment!

  •  And thus... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Damnit Janet imperceptible degrees of acquiescence, a democracy dies.

  •  The solution won't come cheap (0+ / 0-)

    I won't address the Ferguson shooting itself, as the full facts will hopefully come out and justice will be done.  However I did want to comment on a general point, which is that no solution is possible without also putting more resources into local police.

    Society, through its laws, has vested tremendous power in police officers, basically the power to deal death if they judge it appropriate and legal.  

    But we are dealing with humans, so human flaws are going to be part of the picture.  And human limits.  Witness the high suicide and depression rates among police officers.  

    The answer is a long-term investment in training, higher salaries, etc., to reduce (if never completely eliminate) the chances of police abuse of their power.  And vigorous recruitment to ensure that police forces look more like their community.  We also need to continue efforts at gun control.  Some of the "militarization" of police that people rightly condemn is in response to the up-arming of violent criminals with military grade weaponry.

    The racial justice argument is important, but just part of the picture.  

    We should remember there are plenty of countries around the world where 99 percent black police forces and 99 percent white police forces brutally and unjustly kill majority black/white (respectively) populations.  Ask an Ethiopian or Ukrainian if the police club or bullet hurts any less because it comes from a "police force that looks like" them.

    Just changing the color of the cop won't matter if that cop still isn't well-trained or is a low-quality recruit.  

    People don't want to hear this because it costs money.  But it is at the heart of the community policing concept, which is a better alternative to the mass incarceration model we currently suffer under.

    "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

    by FDRDemocrat on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 07:38:33 PM PDT

  •  NAZI ATTITUDES (0+ / 0-)

        THAT'S ALL!!!  AMERICAN COPS HAVE TURNED INTO NAZIS!  Do you need any further explanation????

    WELL, DO YA, PUNK???

  •  Four Crucial Points of Discretion (0+ / 0-)

    Point one:  the initial approach.  Who approached whom and for what reason?  Did the officer approach Michael Brown because he was blocking traffic in the middle of the street?  Or because he was a possible suspect in a violent crime?  Or some other reason entirely?  Or did Michael Brown approach the officer and for what purpose?  More facts are needed here.

    Point two:  the police car interior.  What would compel Michael Brown to have his hands inside driver's side window of a police cruiser with an officer seated in that position?  Who initiated it?  Did Brown push the officer back into the car and then insert his arms inside?  If so, was he going for the officer's weapon?  Was he assaulting the officer?  Was he trying to retrieve a cigar or box of cigars seized by the officer? What did the officer believe he was trying to do?  Or, another scenario (not as likely, but remotely plausible) could be the officer grabbing Brown and pulling him toward window.  We need more details about this to be able to analyze the legality.  But, we do know at some point during this contact, the police weapon discharges inside the car hitting Brown non-lethally.  If Michael Brown had in any way been the aggressor here and was reasonably perceived by the officer as to be going for his weapon, the officer would be justified in shooting him in both self-defense and in enforcement of the law.  

    Point three:  The shooting did not end there, however.  The remainder is based on the assumption that Brown had been the aggressor through the police cruiser window and that the officer was reasonable in perceiving Brown was attempting to go after his weapon.  If this fact is not substantiated, the remainder of this discussion dissolves.  Going forward, another rule - the rule about when a fleeing felon can be shot by police.  Now, the officer's decisions are guided by a confusing mess of decisions on when a fleeing felon can be shot.  Officer has to synthesize the instant facts with this quagmire of decisions to instantly analyze what can and cannot be done.  

    Another pivotal fact going forward is if Brown was running away from the officer or instead facing the officer, backing away but with his hands up?  If running away, those confusing case decisions on when a fleeing felon can be shot would apply.  If instead, Brown was pleading for mercy with his hands up, the suspect is no longer fleeing and any shots fired would be unreasonably excessive in furtherance of the act of arresting the suspect.  A witness reported seeing Brown with his hands in the car, hearing the first shot and seeing Brown run away from the car.  This would trigger the felony murder rule - with the felony being the assault on the officer inside the patrol vehicle.  The witness heard a few shots and saw Brown's body recoil from the impact.

    Point Four:  This same witness then saw Brown turn around and face the officer with his hands in the air.  It was after this, the officer continued walking toward Brown and then final shots were fired.  Since Brown was no longer running away, the fleeing felon rule wouldn't apply.  Instead these shots would appear excessive.  

    Four different points of decision - where both what one did resulted in the actions of the other.  Yes, many times suspects could make better decisions.  But with inadequate community treatment options, more and more often police come in contact with those whose judgment is impaired due to mental disorder.  And then there are those under the influence of drugs who can be unpredictible in their behaviors as well.  Police are increasingly confronting both of these populations and allowances are not made between an assaulter who does so maliciously as with one who does so motivated by drugs or mental delusion.

    So police have tough jobs.  And it would be nice it people could all behave appropriately and respond accordingly.  But then if they did, we wouldn't need police at all.  So, its incumbent on police to be the "adult" in the room.  That's a combination of attitude, training and overcoming guttural emotional response.  

    People who exercise their right of self-defense as with police shootings do not exercise that decision in a vacuum.  The individual has a split second to decide what is appropriate, synthesizing a complicated body of law with an emergent set of facts - and then the investigating police agency, the prosecuting authority and ultimately a jury of twelve will have the leisure of time to learn the facts, apply them to the law and decide whether the individual's actions were appropriate or not.

    None of this is easy and none of it is as cut-and-dry as the other side would suggest it is.  All that is certain, is that some inequities in the criminal justice system have been exposed and this may lead to reform.  May.  

  •  My personal vision is (0+ / 0-)

    Cops don't get paid an awful lot to begin with so you have to wonder why they do it. On top of that they are by nature not all that bright because the brightest and best are weeded out for fear of them getting bored and a waste of training. So now you may just have a not too terribly bright, possibly mentally unstable person with a legal right to carry a gun and they have a certain amount of authority. Consequently, I am very polite to cops because they may just be crazy and I never fuck with crazy people as you never know what they will do. Never fuck with a crazy person with a gun!

    I live in a small integrated city and most of the cops are decent in the long run but only a few can carry on an intelligent conversation and some are downright unreasonable. I only joke with those whom I know fairly well and can trust not to be too outrageous.

  •  If you were a cop (0+ / 0-)

    I don't like abuse any more than anybody else.  If you were a cop you know you have a dangerous job.  You are armed but when physically threatened you will get scared.  

    The cop in the article says don't physically threaten a cop.  I find that hard to disagree with.  By most all accounts in this latest instance the cop was phsically attacked before he started shooting.  I'd bet that if he hadn't been physically attacked nobody would be dead.  

    Did the cop over-react.  Quite possibly but cops are human and when threatened and high on adrenaline bad things can happen.

    •  But here's the deal: (0+ / 0-)

      No body is threatening the cops, that's largely a figment of their own worldview in which they divide up the world into "bad guys" and "good guys" and one of the ways the cop worldview defines "bad guys" is "young, black males".  So that, it doesn't matter what young black males do not or do do, in that world that defines with broad brushes, they already ARE a threat.

      This is the problem.  Those cops weren't being threatened by protesters on the street. But they acted as if they were.

      Wilson wasn't threatened by a teen-aged boy jaywalking, but he acted as if he was.  Then you get self-fulfilling prophecy.


      The cops keep saying "don't threaten cops".  But it is the cops who are doing the threatening.

      And precisely because cops are human and they can be responsible for bad things happening, that is why they should be held accountable.  Because, after all, they are human and other humans are held accountable.


      Thanks for joining the conversation today.

      Welcome to Daily Kos. If you have any questions about how to participate here, you can learn more at the Community Guidelines, the Knowledge Base, and the Site Resource Diaries. Diaries labeled "Open Thread" are also great places to ask. We look forward to your contributions.
      ~~ from the DK Partners & Mentors Team.

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 08:28:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Take 2 (0+ / 0-)

        I'm pretty sure the witnesses are in near total agreement that the officer was physically attacked at the car.  I think the guy would still be alive if he hadn't done that.  Are cops perfect, hell no.  But physically attacking someone, especially someone with a gun is not likely to lead to a good outcome.  I don't think you or I would have done that and that more than probably anything else is why the story is not about us.

  •  We need to make probable cause sacred again (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Poor in a Rich World

    by adding some personal civil liability teeth to unreasonable search and seizure laws, so any cop who thinks they can just check me without cause can be sued personally if they don't really have a good reason.

    The local prosecutors might be willing to look the other way when cops turn into bullies, but if there's a financial reward for street lawyers if that cop can be sued for damages if he can't prove probable cause,  those illegal stops and searches would go away, and a cop wouldn't even consider doing it unless it is in the legal act of protecting, defending and serving, which is when they SHOULD be allowed to do it.

    Make the act of arresting someone a civil liability if the cops refuse to honor the criminal codes.  That way, when the prosecutors refuse to arrest them they can be taken to civil court with some specific, codified liabilities.

  •  No discussion. Disperse or dispense summary judgmt (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DarthEVaderCheney, Oh Mary Oh

       ""...Most field stops are complete in minutes. How difficult is it to cooperate for that long?"

    Ask Michael Brown how long it takes.


    That's just the point. It is pointless to try to discuss anything with an ordinary cop. They are friendly enough if you cooperate, such as accepting your traffic ticket, but if you resist following orders they can get scared and feel like they have to utterly subdue you in order to "secure the situation" (protect themselves).

    If you are a protestor, remember they work for the 1%, who tell them their job is to disperse the unsightly crowd and protect local businesses' ordinary traffic. Even harmless individuals in the crowd, seated or kneeling with their hands in the air or even handcuffed together so they pose no personal threat to the cops, can receive their summary judgment of mace in the face or a beating if they refuse to disperse when commanded to do so.

    The cops are trained that their job is to disperse the crowd by whatever means necessary, whether threatening folks until they leave voluntarily, or by physically dismantling the protests and hauling the protestors off to jail. The cops see themselves as "just doing their job to execute orders" they don't see themselves as having any decision-making power, though in fact they ARE the ones who decide the ultimate fate of every encounter they have with dissenters.

    Do I blame cops for all the excessive violence they may use? Not entirely - they are part of a culture of violence, and as executors of orders, much of the blame does go to the top where elected or appointed officials give the orders. Cops would blame their supervisors and also their victims, as this article makes clear, and there is some truth to both of those "causes" of their actions. But the cops do have to take ultimate responsibility for the choices they make in the field between the rock and the hard place, and they have to take responsibility for choosing to work as an enforcer of the powers that be, even if they didn't realize at the time that not all authority is beneficent.

    Change in individual cop's behavior is not likely to come unless they are forced to confront that they have allowed themselves to become perpetrators of acts they can not condone, and that is what protestors may accomplish when they put themselves in harms way unarmed when they confront cops in peaceful protests. Unfortunately, when a cop does realize this, the result may be to retire from the street work, leaving it to other ernest, good-intentioned but black & white thinking young recruits, and then the protestors are right back where they started, facing the possibility of excessive force.

  •  Asshole, arrogant cops get shot too, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Big Pants, Little Prick!

  •  Most field stops are complete in minutes. (0+ / 0-)

    Most murders take milliseconds.

  •  If You Follow the Law No One Will Get Hurt (0+ / 0-)


  •  don't challenge (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Oh Mary Oh

    I know this attitude all too well as this is what I and my shipmates would encounter in southern California in the mid to late 70's.  It was all too easy to tell who was and was not in the military, much easier than today.

    Now does anyone really wonder just why this middle aged white dude does not trust the cops?  It has not been that long ago I had a cop tell me he had the right to stop me at a check point because it "is in the constitution".  As I told a friend of mine I'm not going to be an ass and claim I know what its like to the Black in America.  However I've encountered my share of bigotry and hate due to my status as a disabled vet, all of which came from "conservatives" (read right wind nut jobs).  I do think I can partially emphasize, but to truly know what its like I cannot actually walk in his shoes.  I do however what ever I can to create an even "playing field".  Its not much, but if more would do so we can make a difference.

  •  Cops (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Oh Mary Oh

    Now I agree, don't resist or fight or threaten. But you do have a right talk, ask questions, call names, as long as you letting them do there work. A good cop can close his ears to the name calling. He does not have to answer questions. Name calling is not resisting. Cops have plenty of authority already. They have the gun, the night stick, the taser, the pepper spray. They do NOT have the right kill you if you are unarmed. That is what this case is going to come down to.

  •  that cop attitude used to be "only in l.a."... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Oh Mary Oh

    ...but it is now nationwide.

    "...momma, momma, your child was killed in the park today. shot by the cops as she quietly lay by the side of the creeps she knew...they killed her, too." f. zappa
  •  Some citizens are more in control than are others. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Oh Mary Oh

    Police have a difficult job but so to, do we, the usually unarmed citizens with whom they deal on a daily basis. If you are driving a bus, the public is not subjugated to your mood, you too have to drive according to the laws. Cops, are no different, technically.

    I have been stopped, and when I asked why it had been done, the officers have invariably become aggressive and dismissive of not only my right to ask, but as well of my personhood.

    Being stopped when you are of color is a much different experience than if you are white for many in our country, and we have to be able to admit to this, before we can start an effective conversation.

    Michael Brown may have been a complete jackoff that day, but a trained police officer should have been able to subdue him without having taken his life: that is why they go through all of the training, from what I have been told by several who dismiss the notion that they are no better suited to the job than would be any person who wanted the job.

    We need for the truth to be found, and if needed, the officer gets arrested, tried and convicted. if Brown was guilty of placing the officer's life in jeopardy? I'm the first to commend the officer for doing his duty, and going home after his shift.

    I do not care if this sounds cold to some of you. Life is full of ugly truths, and this may be the tie when one of them has reared its ugly head.

    Looting does not honor the victim, nor does it respect the family as they have yet to be able to begin the mourning process.

    The officer who referred to the protestors by saying "Bring it on!" Fucking animals, bring it!" Should be taken off of the force. No armed police officer, should have the right to detain anyone, as long as his or her thinking is on that track.

  •  The "Brotherhood" of cops (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Poor in a Rich World

    This is only the tip of the iceberg for many who have watched this sort of minority dies easy & often, while white folks die in tragedy.

    It is sad that the once trusted police/fire fighter and even SOME soldiers who abuse their stations too (relatively speaking, that is) have been lifted to a standard of hero worship since 9-11 that has given the lowest of their own brotherhood COVER, since they undermine ALL GOOD ONES by the actions of the lame ones.

    HMMM, JUST LIKE the way the folks are being treated in Ferguson!? meaning, the worst of the small band of trouble makers with violent intent… get the coverage by some agenda seeking media, while the MAJORITY of the folks are civil and respectful.

    Hmmmm, again sounds like the same problem the cops have.
    So maybe the time to actually quit COVERING for the loser percentage of BOTH protester & cops?

    peaceful and with dignity not possible with knuckle-heads in the crowd. EITHER CROWD. there is a sub culture of abuse and power issues within cop & fire fighter & soldier life we need to also understand here. NOT JUST the public has knuckle-heads folks!

    Cops give up your mistakes and take the medicine for them. Protesters.. regardless of the covering of the bad actors within your own crowd. give them up. time for civilized and well thought out forward actions. Otherwise the douche bags get the benefit of the doubt?

    REGARDLESS of party, or skin will get the drop and the media sympathy. and the real victims in this...
    ...The KID & justice (so far) and the often ignored real racial bias leveled at Brown, dark brown, and maybe poor color blind others in general!?

    The real growth of  "Scary GOVERNMENT" and potential fear for the public at large is not the Administrations growth, nor even the military, but it IS THE POLICE STATE or the slow and barely perceivable way it has been flexing its muscle with tear gas and fragmented reality of USEFUL & USELESS facts.

    Tea Party folks, this is the REAL issue you all should be watching.

    The poor & under represented NEED your anger now. REAL invasions, of real people, in real towns… where are you all now?

  •  I agree completely. There are plenty of methods... (0+ / 0-)

    I agree completely. There are plenty of methods for remedying a situation where you feel slighted by police after you cooperate and the officer leaves (filing a complaint, speak to an attorney, etc.) Parents used to teach respecting authorities, but that doesn't happen anymore. Also, police are trained and know what they can do legally. They do this job everyday and are constantly concerned with liability when they do something wrong. Without any legal training do you really think you know the law better than they do? (Most people don't)

  •  Ferguson (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Oh Mary Oh

    There is no reason for an unarmed man to be shot 6 times.Period. I've read some of the comments from supposedly trained individuals,unfortunetly some panic.I was trained SF/Black ops in VN,I don't know the training they are using these days for police.I have witnessed first hand seeing a group of young adults confronted by an officer who was shaking so badly I thought for sure someone was going to be shot.With luck another officer arrived and had the officer stand down.Now I did not see or hear why the officer felt the need to pull his sidearm.When I was young most officers had military training or were ex MP's, lot of the officers now a days have college degree's and have never had a gun in their hands till they got to the academy.If they feel threaten then shoot em in the legsthat will usally put a person on the ground.Its just my opinion,no more no less.

  •   L.A. Dirty Penny (0+ / 0-)

     " How difficult is it to cooperate for that long?"  It is very hard for even one second to be stopped for no apparent reason by some dead-eyed, jacked-up jerk-off who is going to harass you because he can.....and it never takes "a couple of minutes" when the bozo calls you names and dares you to step out of line; to say one word, to interrupt, to protest.
    Americans should be told the truth about the low self-esteem ridden psychos hired to carry guns for the rich.
    "In the Garden of the Beast" should be required reading in every middle school.

  •  challenging police authority (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Poor in a Rich World, Oh Mary Oh

    Yes, there are times when it's inappropriate to challenge police authority, and there are times when it's just plain stupid.
    This being said, it's NEVER appropriate for a police officer to gun down an unarmed person, especially if said person is no threat to anyone.
    Whether or not there was justification for a shooting is up to a court to decide, but there has to be an ARREST first.
    This could be what the townspeople of Ferguson are angry about.
    Just guessing.

  •  You think you are progressives. Your comments b... (0+ / 0-)

    You think you are progressives. Your comments betray you. You're typical spoiled Americans. Where are you as you type your comments? At home, some Starbucks, at work? Since you all seem to know what it takes to be a cop, become one yourself. Become the change you want to see. Instead you're just as biased and simplistic as the people you think you criticize, especially those of you saying you have no use for cops. What you Americans need is to live in a TRULY lawless country where there is NO police--only chaos, anarchy, and despair. Take your pick -- Syria, Iraq, Sudan, or a dozen other places outside of the USA. Again, stop whining, become a cop yourself and do the job the way you want to see it done.

  •  Note to All Cops ~ (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Poor in a Rich World

    Note to all cops:  You are not God.  Pretending that you are causes problems for everyone, including you.

  •  Last Resort? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Poor in a Rich World, Oh Mary Oh

    Well, the abusive PD of Ferguson has tried Killing, Macing, beating, dogs, vile abusive and vulgar threats, false arrests, trampling constitutional rights to free speech and freedom of the press. Yet, to no avail. I have an idea that may calm things down..How about trying 'JUSTICE'? How about accepting the fact that this was a 'Don't F**K with me, I'm a cop' shooting a child. This was a Not only am I a cop, I'M a WHITE COP"! Shooting a black child. It was basically a 'lynching' for 'EFFING with a White COP'.

    Try Justice Ferguson Police. Try JUSTICE!
    It works wonders to calm  things down.

  •  How difficult is it to cooperate for a few minutes (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Oh Mary Oh

    Said the rapist. Most rapes only take a few minutes. How difficult is to just cooperate. You should try to enjoy it, too...

    Well, let me tell you, said the victim:

    If I'm driving, sure you can see my license. No, you will not search my car without a warrant.

    If I'm on foot or a bicycle, well then, bite me. I'm not required to carry identification for your pleasure.

    I'll be very polite and reasonable about, so long as I've been taking my medication, I'm not in pain, I'm not hungry, or I'm not really, really tired. In those cases, I'm a little cranky. Nothing personal.

    But, seriously, it is the OTHER person's fault? At a stop of any kind, the police have the upper hand. They know why they stopped you. They have a gun. Most importantly, they have the weight of the law behind them. Ergo, the officer controls whether the situation is escalated. If the officer doesn't know how to do that, then he or she should NOT be policing in public.

  •  Bullies (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Oh Mary Oh

    Funny, this is the exact same sort of thing I used to hear bullies in the schoolyard say. I wonder if the majority of people who join the police academy are trying to make up for personal shortcomings? The sort of people who really enjoyed pushing other people around as kids and wanted to find a way to continue that as adults? And they wonder why people hate cops so much?...

    •  I do think there's a difference between (0+ / 0-)

      looking at this issue at an individual level (the personalities of people who become police officers) and looking at the organization of the police and its role in advancing authoritarian and illegal approaches to law enforcement vs. community-based and non-biased approaches to law enforcement.

      But that's probably a different diary, isn't it?

      Thanks for joining the daily kos conversation today.

      Welcome to Daily Kos. If you have any questions about how to participate here, you can learn more at the Community Guidelines, the Knowledge Base, and the Site Resource Diaries. Diaries labeled "Open Thread" are also great places to ask. We look forward to your contributions.
      ~~ from the DK Partners & Mentors Team.

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:03:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm a civilian! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Poor in a Rich World

    I'm not challenging YOU! I'm standing up for my rights! When you blow your 5'5"  baby "muscles" up, 12 inches from my 5'6", 58 year old face, you are intimidating me! I didn't threaten you, you promised me that I could tell my side of the story! Instead you lectured me on how I should respond to YOUR authority! Had I put my hand up and told you to back away, had I BACKED away, you Mr. policeman would have thrown me to the ground. I have a neck injury, I could not possibly threaten you. I don't own a gun. Instead, with contact with the local cops, I, a person who has done nothing wrong am threatened by your officers. I have NO record, not even a traffic ticket. @BattleCreekPD police are criminals in their own right.

  •  Really?? (0+ / 0-)

    Sounds to me, by what Barbara Morrill has said at the end of this little blurb, that she thinks Officer Wilson's version of events sounds more like the truth than most "liberals" do...

  •  Germany 1937 (0+ / 0-)

    Is that all there is?

    by Eral Felder on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 12:02:02 AM PDT

  •  We ALL KNOW LAPD is a BUNCH of RACIST CROOKS!! ... (0+ / 0-)

    We ALL KNOW LAPD is a BUNCH of RACIST CROOKS!! They have that GOOD OLE BOY Mentality!!! Known for corruption!!! Murdering other cops that have concerns about their disgusting behavior, planting evidence, MURDERING ANYONE of COLOR, EVEN babies!!! Etc, etc

  •  These people use the badge as way to boost thei... (0+ / 0-)

    These people use the badge as way to boost their self esteem!!! Dike ass bitch need to ROT in HELL!!!

  •  It's an STFU moment! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Susan Stike Conner, twocrows1023
    Don’t scream at me that you pay my salary,

    Just your salary, pension, health insurance, life insurance, attorney costs if you're  sued.

    And you get to work overtime at union rates, unlike many, many Americans.

    Thump! Bang. Whack-boing. It's dub!

    by dadadata on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 02:29:59 AM PDT

  •  Frak ya'll (0+ / 0-)

    and the horses ya'll rode in on. Once you guys won the court order that you don't have to "protect" us civilians I gave up on you sorry good for nothing "takers"!

    Despite the crud, I'm still a proud Virginian. And *that's* why I rant!

    by Susan Stike Conner on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 03:40:17 AM PDT

  •  I remember a time (0+ / 0-)

    when we saw cops as the good guys.  That would be September 12, 2001.  Since then, the police seem to have been systematically dismantling all the goodwill they generated at the time.

    So now this cop blusters and blunders and says, "Comply! Or else!" Hello?  Them's fightin' words.  What's more, they're the words of a dictator.

    And the diarist had it right.  You can comply all you want but, if you're black, you can die just the same.  Michael Brown and Eric Garner could educate this cop - - if they were still here to do it, that is.  It's just too bad so many cops refuse to take "Yes, sir," for an answer.

    And as to his other rant: yes, indeed, we do pay his salary.  And his pension.  And his union-rate overtime.  If he doesn't like being a public servant, he can always quit.  I certainly wouldn't argue that decision.

    The price of apathy is to be ruled by evil men - - Plato . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . We must be the change we wish to see in the world - - Mohandas Gandhi

    by twocrows1023 on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 04:13:41 AM PDT

  •  Bullies aren't rational (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Oh Mary Oh

    They'll say anything to make it your fault that they're bullies, but eyewitness reports tend to show otherwise. Bullying has become pandemic in U.S. culture, from Congressional anti-White House strategies to Presidential executive order counter-bullying to 2nd Amendment "rights" thugs carrying oversized weapons into supermarkets.

    No surprise that police departments have joined the circus. Notice how often the victim of their bullying is a youngster or an elderly person.

    There is no rational defense against bullies, either. We need to decide as a society to make the bullies extraneous, which would require an overhaul to our election process, our foreign policy, our affection for weaponry, and our attitudes toward the weakness of children, women, and the elderly.

  •  You only have to look to most movies to watch (0+ / 0-)

    How to disarm a person with a knife or an attitude without shooting them.  It is the reason I thought the Police Train the way they do with the motto; First, Do No Harm".

  •  Kinda women who "provoke" rape huh? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Oh Mary Oh, Susan Stike Conner
  •  Well, it SOUNDS reasonable... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Unfortunately, reason doesn't seem to come into the picture where the police are concerned these days. We'd all like to believe that if we're stopped by a police officer behaving in a well-mannered fashion will get the same in return, but we know that isn't true. It seems that not goose-stepping to attention and silently taking whatever a cop throws at us with a "Thank you, Sir" is taken by the officers as a green light to treat citizens like shit.

    One time I was at a stoplight. A motorcycle cop was behind me. The light changed and I didn't move immediately, so this cop shouted, "Move your fuckin' car!" Three seconds at a stoplight and this cop I had had no interactions with is screaming profanity at me. Suppose I hadn't driven away right then? What might this guy have done? And what would he have done if I'd been black and already considered by him to have attitude problems because of the color of my skin?

    I was a probation officer for six years, so I know the crap that people in law enforcement get thrown at them. I'll give police officers the advice I took to heart when I started my job: The person you deal with in each case is in a stressful situation too, so his attitude probably won't be great; you don't know what he's already been through that day; he may merely be asking you what he did wrong, a perfectly reasonable question under the circumstances; his bad manners are directed at what you represent, not you personally; and, the bottom line, you're the one in control of the situation, with all the authority of the court system behind you. And if none of that works for you, try thinking of this: Your position in law enforcement comes with a great deal of responsibility, and you knew that when you took the job. Remember it.

  •  Cops and attitudes (0+ / 0-)

    The only one allowed to have an attitude is the cop, because the cop is the one with the gun.

    Anyone with a gun will receive my utmost respect. This is not to say I respect her/him. I am simply treating them with respect, because I don't want to die.

    I think deep down they know, too, that any respect they get isn't the real deal, and it probably keeps them up nights, and they get angrier, so be very careful around people who carry guns. Their trigger fingers itch in their sleep.

    The cop who wrote the "deep thought" above is just another asshole with a gun. But s/he means what s/he wrote.

  •  It is a two way street. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    There is, at the least, some truth to what this guy says, even if it is spoken in the violent asshole dialect of the English language.

    What we are demanding, really, is accountability.  If a Cop breaks the law, we want that Cop to be held accountable.  That's it.  There are plenty of times where the Police are in a situation where the use of force, even deadly force, is justified.  But there is an inherent unfairness to the equation and therein lies the cause of the riots.

    Even if we find that Mike Brown was 100% justifiable homicide, it still doesn't address the larger issue that has boiled to the surface here.

  •  If you don’t want to get hurt, (0+ / 0-)







  •  I'm a cop (0+ / 0-)

    In other words, "do as I tell you and you will be fine."  Be obedient, be docile, do whatever you are told by authorities regardless of what you are told to do.  Doesn't that perfectly describe the voice of authority in an authoritarian state?

  •  Advice from the LAPD? Right. (0+ / 0-)

    What's it tell you when the former head of the New York Police Department calls this case an abuse of police authority?

    The timing of this article is tone deaf. I agree that violence only begets more violence, and maybe that's what Professor LAPD is trying to tell us. The only problem with insensitive screeds like this is even though they contain some kernel of truth (like don't get aggressive when talking to a man with a gun –– he might be having a bad day), it fails to take into account specific patterns and instances of police abuse.

  •  In other words, (0+ / 0-)

    "Bend over quickly and take it with a smile and maybe I won't decide to kill you, but then again maybe I will.  I would like for you tho think you some say in it, because that makes it even more fun, but you really don't."

    “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.” George Orwell

  •  I agree with the cop... (0+ / 0-)

    in theory.  However, the police should be trained to not respond in kind with rudeness, loss of temper, etc.  

    The most important, I think, is 'learn to control your temper!'  A police officer cannot be a hothead.  Police Officers will encounter the types of people the LA cop mentioned, but they CANNOT lose their tempers.  Rodney King situations occur when the police forget that they're supposed to be the calming influence -- not the rage-filled, vengeful people we've seen repeatedly.

    There must be some sort of psychological test to weed out the hotheads before they maim or kill someone.

  •  I am more and more convinced that we need (0+ / 0-)

    to exhaust Law Enforcement.   They seem eager to show up in force with all of their cop toys so we need to exploit this until they no longer have the energy or resources to continue.

    Cops like to intimidate peaceful public assemblies so when they arrive and gear up for battle, the peaceful assembly of citizens should disperse and another peaceful assembly should pop up in another locale.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  Make the cops play whack-a-mole until they're over-worked and out of money. [Luckily news crews are more agile than flat-foot cops and can keep up with the mobile protests]

    And the best part is Officer 'Do What I Say & You Won't Get Hurt' will be pleased that no one will challenge him and his noble brothers.  

    -- illegitimi non carborundum

    by BadBoyScientist on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:50:27 AM PDT

  •  Don't talk back: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Mr. Cop.

    You're not God. Although you have thought that when you were appointed and got your badge, that give you the right to play God. It didn't.

    Don't stick up for your "brothers" when they are clearly wrong. That makes you a liar.

    Don't stop people and tell them its because they have a tail light out when it clearly wasn't, and didn't magically repair itself through the broken tail light fairy.

    When I'm driving at 50 MPH in a 50 MPH zone, and you whiz by us at 70 MPH, you are a hypocrite when you write tickets to people for doing 50 MPH while driving slower than the rest of the traffic. Especially if they are a minority and have a beater car that they can afford.

    You know why you have no respect anymore? Its because you lost it long ago. Any fool can see that to two arm a black man, defenseless on the ground, being two armed with batons by more than three cops is abuse. And for you and others to say that he was resisting, is a bald faced lie.
    When you put someone on the ground and four of your "brothers" sit on him, and one has his knee in the throat and they can't breath, don't beat the crap out of them because they are fighting for their life to live and breath. You know that because you have had training to be aware of that.

    If you can justify the murder of Michael Brown, unarmed, and believe any story forthcoming from Officer Wilson, you are part of the problem and don't deserve any respect, ever. You can obfuscate until the cows come home to be milked. Dead Boy Brown was unarmed. No amount of sweet whipped cream can change that. As a 70 year old handicapped person, I prefer to walk in the street if the traffic is non-existent or light. Rather than trip over or fall on a badly maintained sidewalk. If I (being white) had been told to get out of the street and on to the sidewalk, I would have told you what you could do with your sidewalk. Does that mean you would shoot me too? And you wonder where respect went? Respect is something you earn. Not demand. I respect rattle snakes. Because they can kill me. I also fear them. The same way I fear cops now. I respect them the same way as any other deadly animal. Only this animal is of the same species as I am.

    Getting a badge didn't authorize you or anyone else the legal right to be investigator, prosecutor, jury (of one) judge and executioner.

    There are many fine police officers. They have our respect. If you fit the above, you're not one of them.

    A former respected ( I like to think) Police Officer. Who quit because of abusive officers that thought they had a right to beat or abuse people.

  •  He was right when he was in Iraq or Vietnam (0+ / 0-)

    In a police state he is right. As of Sunday (and evidently before that too) Ferguson and LA are Police States. Soon we are going to need passwords to cross the street.

  •  Wait a minute (0+ / 0-)

    If I am standing in a public place and minding my own business, not interfering in any way with what you are doing then why should I not challenge you if you are being unreasonable and are taking away my first amendment rights?
    Who the hell do you think you are? Your duties as a police officer do not supplant mine as a US citizen and the constitution of the United States. If I don't challenge you in protecting my rights against unreasonable law enforcement behavior then who will?
    Having a badge does not make you a dictator and my lord and master.

  •  Bully (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Sounds a lot like the bully  mentality that is such a problem now in our society.  Do what I say or else?   This is not a role model I would want for my children   If you want respect you need to earn it and some of these "cops" do anything but that .  I once had a young person who was studying at a local college to become a cop tell me he was becoming a cop so he could get away with more and be powerful.  I realize this is not all...there are many good dedicated cops...but obviously this is not one of them.

  •  Abuse of power. (0+ / 0-)

    What gives these power happy nutcases the right to harrass anyone, anytime, anywhere? They seem to think that if you talk back to them they have a right to kill you. That power needs to be taken away from them. They are no better than anyone else.

  •  I believe it was on daily kos that a commenter ... (0+ / 0-)

    I believe it was on daily kos that a commenter said it, citing the recent excessive use of force and rage by police, that there must be drug testing of an officer involved in a shooting. Steroid was thought as the possible culprit.

  •  As Eric Cartman Would Say... (0+ / 0-)


    That cop sounds like a little pimple of a man with some kind of control issue.

    If it weren't for C- students with bully issues, we'd hardly have any police force at all.

  •  Try it; you'll like it (0+ / 0-)

    I'm an army brat. My dad taught me to follow legal orders and, if necessary, complain later.

    In my 62 years on this planet I have had hundreds of interactions with police (including marching with Dr. King in 1966, the 1968 Democratic Convention, and the Albuquerque riots of 1971). By following my father's advice, I have never once been treated badly or even rudely by any police officer anywhere – even when others very near to me were being beaten and arrested.

    Police officers voluntarily place themselves in harm's way for civilians, and daily see and need to contend with stuff that is nearly inconceivable to the rest of us. Almost all suffer from PTSD. It is remarkable that the majority retain their sanity. Arguing with a police officer is generally worse than useless; they have very little leeway in their job. Arguments are for court – not the street.

    The officer quoted appears to be an adjunct professor of homeland security and criminal justice at Colorado Technical University. I mention this only to point out that he is an experienced and respected peace officer, but even if he did not have these credentials, I would nonetheless wholeheartedly endorse his advice.

  •  A few years ago I thought hitchiking (0+ / 0-)

    across a few western states would be fun. I'm in my late sixties now and was somewhat surprised to find out it ain't as easy as it used to be. For one thing NOBODY will stop unless they want a BJ. And I was pulled over twice by cops who were combative and rude as though I'd robbed the 7-11 at gun point. But what with my age, my sense of humor, my rational yet compliant manner both sets of cops soon realized I was not a criminal and let me go without even a ticket which they could have given me. I didn't say, "Hey man! Why are you pickin' on me?" or challenge them in any way.

    And oh, I'm not black.

  •  Field stops are always a "give and take"... (0+ / 0-)

    type of situation.

    Each stop of an individual requires a modicum of rational behavior on the part of the "stopper" (cop) as well as the "stopped" (person). As we know, that doesn't always happen...

    Some cops are well-trained and well-screened for this type of activity; some are hopelessly inadequate for this type of public interaction.

    Some people are, even in the commission of a serious crime, able to behave rationally, and they seem to know how to prevent an already toxic situation from becoming worse.

    Some people are hopelessly inadequate for this type of public interaction, and they violently over-react to cops.

    Cops are humans, too. Some of them cannot handle violent over-reactions, and sadly, they over-react in response.

    A lot of cops are dead now, because they didn't do enough to anticipate the potential of a stop, nor did they do enough to to quell the response of an irate/irrational person they stopped to question.

    Who amongst us has the guts to face all these daily challenges which could end in our own deaths?

    I wouldn't be a cop for all the tea in China.

    You cannot deal with most suspected lawbreakers by offering them cookies and lemonade.

  •  Challenge (0+ / 0-)

    The cop lumped "challenge" in with screaming threats, as if they are the same thing.  They are not.  Anytime a public servant uses force in an unconstitutional manner, it is our duty to calmly challenge them to obey the law.  The law, by the way, is the Constitution, and anything that doesn't uphold the Constitution is null and void.

  •  Ferguson (0+ / 0-)

    He's right.

    In the early seventies I lived in Hollywood, and the word was, "Avoid the main drags and never, ever mouth off at a cop, and do whatever they tell you, because they have the guns and the badges." As a long haired dope smoking freak, I took this to heart. Back then, no cameras to record a little "stick time" on the accused before throwing him in the back of the Black and White.

    Rule number one; Never argue with a cop. You may state your view, then shut up and do what he tells you. If you are outraged by the behavior or attitude, or don't believe you were pulled over for a valid reason, then hope there is a camera recording the incident, and when you get to the station, report your concerns to the desk sergeant.

    If you have this problem on a regular basis, I suggest moving to another state.

    I have  been pulled over by a cop for no reason once, and after some explanations, was let go. Throughout, I was respectful and polite. That was because he and his partner were pointing guns at me at the time. And their hands were shaking, I could see them. When people have guns and authority, and are stressed by circumstances, it is a really, really bad idea to provoke them with resistance and abuse. They are people too.

    I have lived by this rule in England, Canada and the USA.

    I'm sure all of you have watched the YouTube videos of what happens to those who refuse a cop's requests. Some people seem to think that if they yell and scream loud enough, or resist, the cop is going to back down or just give up.  Not so much.

    Michael Brown didn't cooperate. Instead of moving on to the sidewalk, as requested, he apparently got into a verbal, then a physical altercation with the cop.

    Was this  good idea?

    No, it wasn't, especially after robbing a store minutes before.

    Did this justify killing him?

     That depends on whether he in fact had his hands up in surrender, or if he was advancing on the cop as reported by some witnesses. We will find out when all the evidence is in and a determination is made.

    I am no fan of lynch mobs, and that is exactly what I am reading here.

    If he had simply done what he was told, none of this would ever had happened. What no one mentions is that while there  may well be racial bias on the part of the police, everyone seems to ignore the attitude of the victim. I read that there are now conflicting testimonies of witnesses to the shooting. Some are saying that the victim was walking towards the cop with his hands out, not up.  

    You are prejudging everything.

    Now ask yourself, "Who walks down the middle of the street when there is a sidewalk to walk on just after robbing a store?" What self respecting cop (of any color) is going to ignore two guys jaywalking down the middle of a street?
    Can you say "Asking for trouble?"

    I'm no cop apologist, although I will probably be branded as one, but I'm not going to knee-jerk accuse a guy of cold blooded murder without seeing the evidence.  

    All of the evidence.

    Remember Reddit.

    It doesn't matter if you are right when you are dead.

  •  'I’m a cop.' (0+ / 0-)

    The police I have interfaced with have a lesson to learn. Do unto others as you would have others do to you. Show some respect. We have a right to voice our opinion.

  •  BERLIN, 1933 (0+ / 0-)

    Once upon a time there was a place called Germany where the police had the same attitude. The people who lived in that place didn't end up so well either.......especially if they had an ethnic background that the police didn't approve of......

  •  Very sound advice (0+ / 0-)

    Thank You, Officer Netanyahu!

      "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true."  

                     -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

  •  I will hurt / kill you (0+ / 0-)

    I can't imagine why anyone would want to be a cop these days, unless they are just looking to bully others.
    The training and psychological screening to become a Police Officer is completely inadequate, far too many angry, racist, bully hot heads are passing through the system. Every State and City should be held accountable for the dangerous bullies they hire and hand a gun, badge and authority too. Every governor, Mayer, Chief of Police should be held responsible for those bad Apples under them. EVERY State officer should be held directly accountable for the actions of the next officer down the ladder, that IS their job after all, to manage those under them. Disregard for proper action by any of these offices should be punished.
     I call on you Mr. President, take responsibility for the offices under YOU!  

  •  normally that would make sense. (0+ / 0-)

    But that LA police officer who should be properly quoted and named (but was not) needs to look at this situation:  Reporters have tweeted: " Capt. Johnson said to turn around and walk away or get arrested.  So we turned around and started walking away and they arrested us."  This is the land of OZ we are talking about.

    In addition, ideally, the LA unnamed unquoted guy is right.  But if the alleged does say those nasty things, and does offer resistance, it is still up to him to do his job properly.  Respectfully.  A great cop is one who acts respectfully and properly in the face of insults and resistance.  A consequence of resistance is not DEATH.

  •  "I'm a cop." (0+ / 0-)

    The article has to be taken in context.  We know how great LA's record of observing civil rights while policing has historically been.  The police's authority comes from legislation, the citizens' right to free speech comes from the Constitution!  

    Is it both good manners and good sense to be polite to police?  Yes.  Is it required under the law?  A resounding "no".   There are no "contempt of cop" laws (and if there were, they'd be unconstitutional).  As a citizen, you have every right to question, record and protest the actions of police.  And, in the most egregious cases, "suing and taking away the badge" is appropriate.

    •  Clearly, we wind up in a bad way without (0+ / 0-)

      holding police accountable. The impunity of so many bad actors then inadvertently calls into question the bad faith of those who employ them (namely, the residents of the municipalities that pay their salaries). If the rogue cops have the tacit backing of their communities, then we are in serious trouble as a nation, given how wide-spread the attitude of arrogance is among police.

      A word to the wise, however, on a separate topic: Even front-page diaries have a big drop-off in traffic after the first day or two. This place moves fast, and to participate in an active conversation, you have to jump in right away.

      Welcome to Daily Kos. If you have any questions about how to participate here, you can learn more at the Community Guidelines, the Knowledge Base, and the Site Resource Diaries. Diaries labeled "Open Thread" are also great places to ask. We look forward to your contributions.
      ~~ from the DK Partners & Mentors Team.

      Support Small Business: Shop Kos Katalogue If you'd like to join the Motor City Kossacks, send me a Kosmail.

      by peregrine kate on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 07:35:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  WE as CITIZENS have RIGHTS! (0+ / 0-)

    Police officers cannot do this! It is not legal. It is not ethical.  I have a Bachelor's in Criminal Justice and I know that cops cannot do whatever the hell they choose.
    We have rights and we have the right to ask a police officer anything! Treating everyone as criminals is wrong. They are not just crime fighters, they are also here to SERVE and PROTECT.
    They are not given the right to threaten for no reason at all!
    This is B.S.!!

  •  Are cops cowards? (0+ / 0-)

    So basically what we're saying here is that cops are bullies because cops are cowards.

  •  Some Cops (0+ / 0-)

    Americans must confront this ignorance and fear head on, and expose it. We can no longer afford to turn our heads, and couch this orchestrated insanity as if it were a series of isolated incidents.Some police are out of control in there jobs they quick to lie,shot when there no need to and have whole communities in fear.There is a need for more POC in the police force and in there neighborhood,and ongoing tests for racism. O its funny how the people who are sticking up for this cop by sending money to his fund,but can't send a penny to the family of the slain kid for unexpected funeral cost because he black.
    We are the only race that despite doing and creating so much and living in one country (America) for so many years.are still hated, mistreated and segregated. Most other groups live among whites (the majority group) and are accepted by them. "I look at black people and i see that we are the most unique race, we don't look like any other group"

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