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Police officers point their weapons at demonstrators protesting against the shooting death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri August 18, 2014. Police fired tear gas and stun grenades at protesters on Monday after days of unrest sparked by the fatal sh
Go figure: White and black Americans have very different levels of confidence that their local police forces treat racial groups equally, use the right amount of force for each situation, and hold officers accountable for misconduct.

According to a new Pew Research Center/USA Today survey, whites are nearly four times as likely than blacks to say police do an excellent or good job at treating racial and ethnic groups equally: 38 percent of whites give police high marks on equality, while just 10 percent of African Americans do the same. The numbers are similar for views on how well police do at holding officers accountable when misconduct occurs, and the gap is even larger on the question of whether police use the right amount of force for each situation.

You don't have to look far to see why a person's race might affect how they view the police—maybe, just maybe, it's because a person's race affects how the police treat them. That lack of trust isn't just about how many times Darren Wilson shot Michael Brown, or what the incident report on that killing looked like. It's not just about how the Ferguson police responded to peaceful protest. You can ask Charles Belk about it. Being handcuffed and detained for hours on suspicion of bank robbery just because you happen to be a tall bald black man might tend to make you question how committed to racial equality your local police department really is. Multiply that story times a million and you start to understand—if you're willing to really think about it—why African Americans have such a negative view of police.

Originally posted to Laura Clawson on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 07:06 AM PDT.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Because many in the white sect are (7+ / 0-)

    purposefully and willfully ignorant.

    The system works for white people mostly because they designed the system for whites only.

    I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

    by a2nite on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 07:19:15 AM PDT

    •  Yes, police treat white people differently (15+ / 0-)

      than they do black people.   With African Americans, police shoot first, and "thuggify" the victim later.   White folks generally live in an entirely different world when it comes to police interactions.  

      White kids walk in the middle of the street every day without being shot.

      Racism has taken away the ability of some whites to see, to be fully human, to empathicize with blacks.  Many American whites are damaged human beings who cling to white supremacist fantasies and hatred.   They become "blue eyed devils."  

      We now have police lynchings leaving "strange fruit" in the middle of the street, and many if not most whites don't care.    

       

      Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

      by TomP on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 07:49:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, to be honest so do black kids (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TomP, AlexcSinger, Josiah Bartlett

        Police racism is a real problem but it doesn't help anything to exaggerate it.    The vast majority of police have never shot anybody, and the vast majority of those have never shot anybody for unjustified reasons.

        The same can't be said of traffic stops or all the other petty harassment that minorities face in some areas.

        •  Here in St. Louis, many black kids (17+ / 0-)

          care.  There is a new movement beginning.

          Not all whites are evil; not all police officers are bad.  

          I am white, and while I have had to grow, I don't think I am evil.  But God was good to me.  He let me endure poverty when I was young for a short time, to have many second chances, to not be taught racism at home, to have an open mind, and to listen to black folks instead of thinking I know everything.  Those are gifts.

          And I still see things from a white perspective.  But every now and then, when I really try, I capture a glimpse of how black folks see the world, and what I see in whites from that perspective horrifies me.  The lack of basic decency and humanity.  The desire to turn victims into "thugs" so lynchings are justified.  

          It is a sickness.

          And the only way to cure it is for white folks to admit the problem of racism in their hearts and minds and do something about it.

          Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

          by TomP on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:08:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  And the Vast Majority of teachers are (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Josiah Bartlett

          either "effective" or "highly effective" ...

          That doesn't keep some folks from wanting to bust their union and revoke their tenure ... because ... y'know ... the way they rally around the "ineffective 5%."

          But compared to unionized cops, unionized teachers ...  have about the same Solidarity as freelance writers.

      •  I don't think the blanket statement is fair. (0+ / 0-)

        Lots of police and lots of police departments, for sure.

        There are a lot of black cops and a few PDs that look one hell of a lot more like their constituents than Ferguson.

        That, ultimately, is the answer.

        Instead of us v them, it has to be us v. some of us with badges, whoever us may be.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:53:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •   Many American whites are damaged human beings who (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        moviemeister76, chrisculpepper

        cling to white supremacist fantasies and hatred.  

        THIS!

      •  top commented (0+ / 0-)

        "But hate wears you down, and does not hurt your enemy. It is like taking poison and wishing your enemy would die." - - Cherokee saying

        by brillig on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 06:22:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  How do most white people know how police (4+ / 0-)

      Treat black people?    Many white people don't know or in some cases even see many black people.  If you like in an urban area you see these encounters, but not if you live in the outer suburbs, the exurbs or rural areas.  They know what Fox tells them.

      Don't bet your future on 97% of climate scientists being wrong. Take action on climate now!

      by Mimikatz on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:58:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I know what white privelage is (4+ / 0-)

      Besides being middle class economically I grew up in a small NJ town. I got lots of breaks from the cops. All over, NJ and in NYC.

      One of the reasons I blog is to help the people in New York City who were all so good to me back in the sixties and seventies.

      That stereotype about New Yorker's being too busy to care is so untrue! New York People and the Port Authority Police were some of the very best friends I ever had.

      So I blog to help them back.

      I also blog for our Troops and Vets because when I was a little girl my Father had a bar.

      We were 4 blocks from the Naval Base. Bayonne NJ, 1950's and I had Sailor friends from all over the world. These guys gave my Mother over $2,000 in tips (nineteen-fifties money) over the years to buy US Savings Bonds for me. They would all buy me toys too.

      I'm a Sociologist. I blog for everyone. I blog for myself.

      No one would give me a job though. White privilege didn't get me that far.

      So I blog for free.

      I also blog in revenge for the way the government destroyed my generation. I blog to try and keep them from doing it again.

      Brought To You By That Crazed Sociologist/Media Fanatic rebel ga Be The Change You Want To See In The World! Gandhi

      by rebel ga on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 10:33:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm white (9+ / 0-)

    I don't think that.

    I used to travel around and see the Grateful Dead and knew many many people who were pulled over and searched just because of their bumper stickers.

    I had a friend who was charged with posession in VA.  When pulled over the cop claimed to have smelled something and searched their car. Found nothing. Asked for ID and one had their ID in the trunk.  They got it and cops said since they opened the trunk they could search it. Found a couple doobies.

    In court they argued it was an illegal search because the justification was they were smoking in the passenger compartment and nothing was found there. The judge ruled the just the Dead stickers constituted probably cause to search the entire vehicle.

    •  DFHs and Occupiers are, like Black people, (3+ / 0-)

      part of the group that is automatically thought of as causing trouble and therefore must be harassed.

      "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

      by zenbassoon on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 07:33:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The only stickers on my vehicles... (5+ / 0-)

      ...are mountain bike-related stickers, and Dad's EGA and Gunney's stripes.

      Sure as hell ain't putting political stickers of any kind on any vehicle I own.

      Between the cops and deranged right wingers, I don't need the trouble. It's bad enough just Driving While Bearded...

      "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

      by leftykook on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:02:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I still have an Obama sticker on my hybrid, (5+ / 0-)

        but I'm white, 59 years old, with short hair and a beard.   When I was young with long hair I was harassed, but had I been black then, I would have had real trouble.  I once git a ticket for calling an Officer an "asshole, motherfukcing pig."  I was 19.  They read it in court.  I got a third year law student to defend me, $25 fine.  Cop put handcuffs on my tight, but that was it.  Suburban hippies like me had it easy.   If I were black, I suspect he would have kicked my ass.

        PS, I was drunk, young, and stupid.  Don't recommend it.  
        :-)    

        Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

        by TomP on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:23:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I have feared to put any opinions on (0+ / 0-)

        my car for a very long time.  I don't need to be keyed or harassed just for a sticker. When I would see a Bush/Cheney sticker and such it made my skin crawl and I would immediately pigeon hole the driver.  Sorry but this is where we are now.  One right wing noise and I've got you in your box never to be set free in my mind.   “When someone shows you who they are believe them." Maya Angelou

        "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

        by cowdab on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 10:46:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  And how long ago was this? (9+ / 0-)

      I mean were there still b/w tv's? Because where I live quite a few of those Dead Heads are the republican votin', Fox News watchin' boomers in the middle class. And they don't get stopped by the cops anymore... And the Grateful Dead play on a constant loop on the local oldies radio station... On another note, I was just followed around a Walmart for shopping-with-too-much-pigment. In my local government work shirt and badge... ijs...

      Republicans are counting on the fact that fear makes people do stupid things. Like voting Republican.. ~ Ian Reifowitz

      by mikejay611 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:38:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  So your friend was breaking the law (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TomP

      OK, so technically that was not a justified stop but here is the thing.   You can do something about the kind of stickers you have on your car.   After one or two incidents you take them off unless you are a glutton for punishment.

      You can't do anything about the color of your skin.

      Do you get it now?

    •  I've been there. (0+ / 0-)

      For looking like a hippie.

      Brought To You By That Crazed Sociologist/Media Fanatic rebel ga Be The Change You Want To See In The World! Gandhi

      by rebel ga on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 11:05:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  shocking (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, maryabein, TomP, dconrad, shanikka, cowdab

    except that plenty of people down here don't think Ferguson is a black/white kind of issue and that they just roll their eyes if you say so.

    All blacks are criminals and just plain scary is so deeply imbedded with a certain segment of the population, which unfortunately includes many police and security officers, that they can't see the protests as anything but 100% looters and outsider agitators.   I was told that yesterday, it was proven that 97% of the protesters were not from Ferguson.  97%.

    •  I do not believe that 97% of the protesters (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jfromga

      were not from Ferguson.  May I ask who told you that and how they got that information?  At one point in the news stream it was reported that most of the people arrested were from outside of Ferguson but that was later walked back.  

      •  it was a typical white guy (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        stringer bell

        from a rural Georgia county and I didn't ask how he got his information because it didn't really matter to me what his source of disinformation was.  I merely told him I had found those Buddhist monks particularly scarey.  Which left him looking puzzled but unwilling to ask what I meant.

  •  *gasp* (9+ / 0-)

    Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

    by moviemeister76 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 07:40:38 AM PDT

  •  Gadzooks! Whatever could account for it? (6+ / 0-)

    Here in 21st century post-racial America?

  •  A function of white privilege. (10+ / 0-)

    Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

    by TomP on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 07:44:12 AM PDT

  •  Water's wet. Film at 11 (11+ / 0-)

    While polls are necessary because, proof....black people know this.

    We view "The Handmaid's Tale" as cautionary. The GOP views it as an instruction book.

    by Vita Brevis on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 07:51:20 AM PDT

  •  Have To Say It (6+ / 0-)
    —maybe, just maybe, it's because a person's race affects how the police treat them.
    There's that, a provable and undeniable truth, but also many whites - way too many - are in the 'majority' mode of denying that police departments are denying justice for some because that fact, if found true by these deniers, would imply the need for a community moral response towards seeking justice for all.

    Sadly,

    a) that's a lot of hard work and is sort of scary, and,
    b), such justice-seeking might alienate the cops towards them. Don't want the cops taking their time to respond to a call in case some group of 'minorities' (brown people) is gathering or attacking or ?

    "?" because so many white fears are vague and unformed, like, you know, paranoia.

    God's preference is for more people to be included,...whenever the circle is shrinking, where people are being excluded or disliked, God is not served. -Rev. Alice Connor

    by paz3 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 07:52:44 AM PDT

  •  The view from a law abiding old white lady (0+ / 0-)

    After dozens of anti-cop diairies, greenbell feels it is her duty to report that the cops have both protected her and served her.

    Now, greenbell is just a Minnesota nice kind of homeowning suburban woman and she does not break the law.  Oh, there was the time she might have accidentally missed a stop sign and ran across a rude cop, yes, I did take that into consideration.  

    For the most part the cops have just been doing the protecting and the serving.  Getting me out of the ditch in the January windchill, taking care of a little matter of a dodgy developer next door, following up on some minor crimes along the way, helping out a mentally ill cousin when he was far from home and off his meds and no one knew where he was, yup, it was a southern cop who saved his life.  You won't hear about that on the news.  

    And there even was the time when greenbell happened across a major crime in the course of her work and got to help out a very, very nice detective who was oh so cute as it happened.  

    Greenbell has been a juror twice on state and federal cases and both acquitted and convicted.  Greenbell does her civic duty.  She has been registered to vote for over 40 years, knows her polling place, and gets the voting done early in time for coffee.  Democrats win all the offices on her ballot and they know that she and her friends and neighbors do not want crime in their neighborhood.

    Greenbell learned about obeying the law early in life from her parents who told her not to cheat on her taxes and to obey the law even when she could get away with breaking it.

    You might be surprised how many of us there are out here particularly in the middle west.   Are we white?  Oh, my, yes, and if you don't think there are a lot of us come on out to the Minnesota State Fair this week.

    We will be voting in November and we will not be voting against the cops.

    •  That is very "white" of you. (19+ / 0-)

      Your comment reeks of white privilege and racist assumptions that black folks who are harassed are not like you.  

      Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

      by TomP on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 07:56:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And by that, I mean not like (16+ / 0-)

        you in that they must not be law abiding like you.  Your white skin gets you a lot in life, just as mine has done.

        The racial arrogance in your comment in amazing, as is your tacit support for police lynchings.  

        Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

        by TomP on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 07:58:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  But Madam. The people have no bread to eat. (6+ / 0-)

        The Republican motto: "There's been a lot of progress in this country over the last 75 years, and we've been against all of it."

        by Hillbilly Dem on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:35:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  My comment reeks of my reality (0+ / 0-)

        And my comment reeks of the reason the INEVITABLE ONE can't figure out how to have an opinion on Ferguson.

        I vote on MY reality not on YOUR reality.  My reality is a responsive police force from suburb to city to state to detectives to the courts.  If that is privilege, it is what it is, but you expect me to erase over 60 years of my own experience and put on another reality and why would I do that?  What is in it for me?  There are things I want to change but my local police are not on that list.  

        I don't like war but I also don't like crime.  I'm just giving you the world as it is from the eyes of the little old white ladies who do so know where and when to vote in November.

        •  AWESOME (17+ / 0-)

          Honest racism is so refreshing these days. You are a treasure.

          Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

          by moviemeister76 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:44:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  What's in it for you? (5+ / 0-)

          Racism has done good by you, so if a few African Americans are lynched by the police, why should you give a shit?  

          My God have mercy on your sorry ass soul.  

          Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

          by TomP on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:46:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wow. Reading you today, you seem really hateful. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            cryonaut, Victor Ward

            It's neither attractive nor useful, especially as he is giving you a very nice description of the way many people feel.

            And really, in Minnesota, what would you expect?

            None of what she's written makes her a racist or a "sorry ass sould". It makes her somebody who hasn't seen the problem and who doesn't understand it.

            Your response strikes me as an opportunity lost.

            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

            by dinotrac on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:59:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I an not hateful. Just telling the truth about (5+ / 0-)

              white racism and the choice many whites make to be evil, to give up their humanity.  

              Yes, she is a racist.  And, yes, she has a sorry ass soul when she says, what's in it for me?

              Opportunity, may ass.

              It's time whites call out other whites for racism.  As a white person, I have a responsibility to do so.

              Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

              by TomP on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:01:31 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You are right (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TomP

                I still think she/he/it are talking like this to get a rise and get others to join the hateful fray.  This is my last post about it and I've learned not to play to this crap in the future.

                "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

                by cowdab on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 11:23:54 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Oh ffs (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mikejay611, Vita Brevis, TomP, CPL 1234

              You seriously want to go down as a racist apologist? What greenbell has written is racist as shit. Sure, the commenter is being honest, but it's still completely racist.

              Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

              by moviemeister76 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:01:38 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  OK. It's lost on me. I am honestly unable to see (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                cryonaut, Victor Ward

                the racism in her comments.

                Ignorance?
                Sure.

                Maybe the difference is that I've spent a little time in Minnesota.

                LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                by dinotrac on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:03:16 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It starts in the first comment (8+ / 0-)

                  She's saying the reason why the police never pull her over is because she's never broken the law, except that one time she ran a stop sign. And she doesn't break the law because she had good parents who taught her right from wrong.

                  The subtext is that black people have a high amount of interactions with the police because they are criminals who had bad parents. It's racism 101.

                  Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

                  by moviemeister76 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:07:07 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Could be, I suppose, but...in Minnesota, that's (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Victor Ward

                    probably just her experience.

                    Is there no room for her not to understand the problems faced by others without being a racist?

                    Insulated, perhaps, and not especially sensitive.
                    Maybe racist, but you are jumping to that conclusion based on mighty thin input.

                    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                    by dinotrac on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:24:09 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Have you read her other comments (5+ / 0-)

                      She refers to President Obama as The INEVITABLE ONE.

                      And besides, I know she's racist. There's a reason I commented that her first comment gave me flashbacks to my childhood. My dad, who is a racist, talks exactly like that.

                      Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

                      by moviemeister76 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:27:06 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Hillary is the INEVITABLE ONE (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        cryonaut, Victor Ward

                        Sorry if people don't know who hasn't had a word to say on this issue but yes please do just live within your own narrative.  

                        I figure HRC being a woman of about my age from a suburb not so unlike mine, knows what I'm talking about.  I disagree with her on plenty, but she's not dumb enough to think you win elections by branding the typical life experience of white voters as racist.

                        I predict this will become clearer to you all when your bubble bursts in November and Democrats lose the Senate.

                        •  Oh my word (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          TomP, Vita Brevis, mikejay611

                          I should have remembered. I had forgotten how some folks here labeled her that.

                          I wonder if you realize how ironic your comment is, though. After all, I am quite sure Hillary knows enough not to piss off racist folks like you.

                          Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

                          by moviemeister76 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 10:18:27 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  it's not your "life experience" (4+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          moviemeister76, TomP, vpd4, stringer bell

                          you dumbass racist, it's your refusal to acknowledge or even attempt to understand that millions of your fellow citizens have much different experiences, they're not just making it up, and they have a right to the peaceful life that you enjoy.  Maybe, just maybe, it might sink through your dark soul that it's better for everyone when all citizens enjoy equal rights.    

                          you can shit on my face but that doesn't mean I have to lick my lips

                          by red rabbit on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 11:12:21 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  Well, it's reeking of privilege (7+ / 0-)

                      and greenbell has been made aware that it is, indeed, a privileged position.

                      Since she keeps insisting that her reality is the norm (or should be the norm) in spite of an overwhelming amout of evidence to the contrary on this very blog then, yes, it does cross the line into racism.

                      •  Yes, I can agree with that. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Victor Ward

                        And it might be racist.
                        And SHE might be racist.

                        Now that I know who "THE INEVITABLE ONE" is, I'll go back and re-read her comments to see if they change in that context.

                        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                        by dinotrac on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:49:03 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Maybe not exactly "racist" - maybe just "selfish" (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        TomP

                        certainly 'classist' and very 'conventional' -- with all the negative judgement that those characteristics invite: like

                        'small'
                        'sheltered'
                        'privileged'
                        'entitled'
                        'self satisfied'

                        also
                        'complacent' and 'complicit'

                        but not NECESSARILY "Racist"

                        Our British cousins have managed, and still manage, all sorts of incivility and injustice to their native-born, pale white 'chavvy urchins' and 'yobos' without any reference to race or religion, at all, at all.

                        And last I looked:  "Jock", "Paddy,"  Taffey and even "Abraham" were all as White as any Mayfair Lady.

                  •  I went back and re-read that. (0+ / 0-)

                    And I wonder how much is in the comment and how much is in the eye of the beholder.

                    The repeated references to law-abiding do raise a red flag , and the question I would ask if we were conversing in person would be, "Why do you assume that that's true for everyone?"  

                    Cops have wives, girlfriends, mothers, grandmothers, daughters, nieces, etc..  Why would you hassle somebody who makes you think of your mom?

                    That might get me everything I need to know.  If not, I'd tell her about my very different experiences when I was younger and less socially acceptable.  I'd tell her what it's like having the cops treat you as the enemy.

                    What I'd listen for would be any expression of a generic "they" are not like a generic "us".  Number one on the list would be "the blacks".  I'm sure it's possible to do, but I've never heard that prhase used in ordinary conversation without a racist context.

                    But, as I said before, I'm very much a benefit of the doubt person.  I prefer not to assume the worst as its rarely useful to do so and often harmful.

                    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                    by dinotrac on Wed Aug 27, 2014 at 07:09:07 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Oh Please... (4+ / 0-)

                  Putting aside your deliberate obtuseness,  I've spent some time there as well so let's not insult all the folks in Minnesota by allowing greenbell to speak for them or the other "little old ladies" there.

                •  The comments imply that since she (11+ / 0-)

                  is law abiding, those abused by the police, are not. By Default. Oh and she's pissed that BHO is president (INEVITABLE ONE? Really?). The problem with ingrained racism is the apologists and enablers. The fact that you don't see it show that you're part of the problem, and being from Minnesota is a bullshit excuse.

                  Republicans are counting on the fact that fear makes people do stupid things. Like voting Republican.. ~ Ian Reifowitz

                  by mikejay611 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:10:34 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Is that who the INEVITABLE ONE is? (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    mikejay611, Victor Ward

                    I must not hang out in the right places.

                    As to being part of the problem, you're a better candidate than I am.  What's the saying? If you're not a part of the solution then you're part of the problem?

                    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                    by dinotrac on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:26:25 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I have to disagree (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Vita Brevis, TomP, mikejay611, ChadmanFL

                      White people have a duty to call out fellow white folks who say racist crap. Remaining silent or trying to defend it not only lets black folks know they aren't welcome here, it further perpetuates something that is almost impossible to stop as it is.

                      Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

                      by moviemeister76 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:30:45 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  No, we don't have a duty to "call people out" (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        cryonaut, Victor Ward

                        We have a duty to do what we can, in ways both large and small, to make things better -- a step on the road to eliminating the problem as much as humanity will let go of it.

                        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                        by dinotrac on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:46:07 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Oh I see (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          mikejay611, TomP

                          So you actually are just fine with racists saying what they want here at DKos without any pushback from the rest of us. Fuck black folks, I guess.

                          Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

                          by moviemeister76 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:51:17 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Beats making things up. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            cryonaut, Victor Ward

                            Not fond of reality, are you?
                            It's so damned limiting.

                            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                            by dinotrac on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:53:33 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Who's making shit up? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mikejay611, TomP

                            Not me. It's amazing that you have all these people in here pointing out she's being blatantly racist, but you are set to defend a racist to the end. Even going so far as to say white people shouldn't be calling out racists. No wonder there's so few people of color at this site, if this is what they have to face every damn day.

                            Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

                            by moviemeister76 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:56:01 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Absolutely you are. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            cryonaut, Victor Ward

                            Examples of you making stuff up:

                            So you actually are just fine with racists saying what they want here
                            I will grant you this:

                            If a racist got on here and said we have to stop using fossil fuels, I would be completely ok with that.  Wouldn't surprised if some racists have gotten on and done exactly that.  We just wouldn't know they're racists because curbing CO2 is not an issue that woujld reveal racism.

                            Fuck black folks, I guess.
                            You might just be expressing how you feel, but I suspect you're making up an outlook for me, an outlook that couldn't be further from the truth.
                            you are set to defend a racist to the end.
                            Nope.
                            Even going so far as to say white people shouldn't be calling out racists
                            Didn't say that, either.  I am happy to call out racists. What I said was something very different from that.

                            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                            by dinotrac on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 10:10:10 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Avoidance (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            TomP, mikejay611

                            Have you actually realized what she said was racist yet? Or are you still trying to figure that out?

                            Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

                            by moviemeister76 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 10:13:32 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Haven't gone back to re-read it yet. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mikejay611, stringer bell

                            But I will.

                            Trying to work a bit --
                            and let state of mind ease up.

                            I'm feeling a bit confrontational right now, and that could lead me to see her posts exactly as I describe them as opposed to what they actually say.  That would defeat the purpose.

                            Can't avoid my personal biases, but can give it the best shot I can.

                            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                            by dinotrac on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 10:22:07 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  no time to re-read it... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mikejay611

                            but lots of time to post comments defending it.  

                            you can shit on my face but that doesn't mean I have to lick my lips

                            by red rabbit on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 11:45:28 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  oh you're not defending a racist (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mikejay611

                            well, other than the fact that all of your posts under her racist comment are defending her.  Other than that, totally made up.  Welcome to dino's alternate reality.  

                            you can shit on my face but that doesn't mean I have to lick my lips

                            by red rabbit on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 11:44:12 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What it sounds like to me... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            moviemeister76, TomP

                            n/t

                            Republicans are counting on the fact that fear makes people do stupid things. Like voting Republican.. ~ Ian Reifowitz

                            by mikejay611 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:54:34 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  I don't see many suggestions at solving anything (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      TomP, Vita Brevis

                      from you either. Just a lot of defending the White status quo and POV from the little harmless old lady. My suggested solution would be to try and see the world through my eyes and where I come from. But that would legitimize it for you and the other privilege apologists here... This is not the first time you've come to the defense of an overtly racist POV, dinotrac. Starting to see a pattern. News flash: people that look like you still make up over 70% of the population here. What are y'all so afraid of really?

                      Republicans are counting on the fact that fear makes people do stupid things. Like voting Republican.. ~ Ian Reifowitz

                      by mikejay611 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:59:55 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  It's a hard thing that we've been trying to do (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        mikejay611, doc2

                        for years.

                        If I were sitting across from that lady, I would tell her about my experiences being harrassed by police.  I'd tell her that she's right about being law-abiding, but wrong to think that it's enough.

                        If I were sitting across from her, though, I would be in a much better position to tell if she's really a racist or if her experiences "color" her world in a way that has a racist effect, which is different.

                        If she's really a racist, you call her out and I, for one, have nothing more to do with her. Although, sigh, you can't really do that if she's a member of your own family. Then you are left to make sure your kids aren't poisoned by the spew -- and that's not easy.

                        If she's not really a racist -- and I'll admit to being more "benefit of the doubt" than most people -- there is room for talk and guidance.

                        On more of a policy level, I'm a great believer in police force that mirror the local populace as much as possible. Even more, I think cops should get out of there cars and get to know folks -- and get to be known.  I think it's harder to shoot people you know, and I think people who know you are less likely to assume the worst from the outset.

                        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                        by dinotrac on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 10:19:09 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Fair Enough. (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          dinotrac, doc2

                          n/t

                          Republicans are counting on the fact that fear makes people do stupid things. Like voting Republican.. ~ Ian Reifowitz

                          by mikejay611 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 11:16:35 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  why do you have to be sitting across from her? (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          mikejay611, vpd4

                          the comment is right here and you can address her here.  Just like you're magically able to make the time to constantly troll and defend whatever rightwing, GOP, racist comments that other trolls post--or maybe engage in another round of bashing progressives on a progressive site.  
                          Another one of your hypocritical habits is whining about the characterizations of conservatives, because it doesn't match up with whatever your subjective, vague, poorly defined notion of a "conservative" is--while at the same time making ignorant, stereotypical, or strawman statements against progressives.

                          you can shit on my face but that doesn't mean I have to lick my lips

                          by red rabbit on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 11:55:28 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  "inevitable one" (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    TomP, dinotrac, mikejay611, moviemeister76

                    yeah, never thought much of this commenter based on previous comments, but she's just proudly flying the racist banner now, leaving no doubt.  She'll still have a handful of rightwing, racist, authoritarian, and GOP supporters here.

                    you can shit on my face but that doesn't mean I have to lick my lips

                    by red rabbit on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:40:29 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  a lot is lost on you (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  moviemeister76, Vita Brevis, TomP, ks1

                  Oh if we only made an effort to understand and engage with the racist old granny who doesn't see any problems in her little corner of the world, surely she would come around!   If only everyone else bent over backwards not to offend her delicate sensibilities while she engages in longwinded, not-so-well-veiled racist rants, we could make real progress!  Or maybe it's better not to waste time and resources trying to change the mind of an old racist living somewhere that discrimination and police brutality don't exist, because most of the population is the same race and therefore doesn't have to deal with all the unpleasantness that she only has to read about, and instead focus on the areas where the problem is deadly real.
                  Old racist greenbell also sounds like a bitter old PUMA who still can't stand that the uppity boy was chosen by the American people, twice, so that doesn't help much either.
                  Botton line, trying to engage with her is like trying to change Foxnews or get teabaggers to vote Democratic--a waste of limited time and resources when there's a chance for positive change elswhere.  

                  you can shit on my face but that doesn't mean I have to lick my lips

                  by red rabbit on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:36:33 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  She is saying (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  TomP, ChadmanFL

                  that in her white world it has never happened... therefore.. it has never happened to anyone in this world.  The bubble she lives in is shared by many of her ilk.

                  However, I don't think she is who she says; but she is a troll and may not even be a she.

                  "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

                  by cowdab on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 11:13:49 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Minnesota is progressive in many ways and Minne... (0+ / 0-)

              Minnesota is progressive in many ways and Minneapolis is doing an incredible job at trying to address racial issues compared to other states. Grdenbell is someone who has no idea about this side of her own state and is ignorant of the path taken to have the kind of blissful law enforecemnt environment she lives in. As a black man in Minneapolis I have to say this place is amazing compared to so many other quote unquote liberal cities. Its not perfect but they are trying. greenbell has no real clue about this side of her state and is therefore able to defend police and probably is a democrat to boot.

        •  Um people had a choice, people (6+ / 0-)

          voted (twice) so "the INEVITABLE ONE " (in caps no less)? WTF? Latent issues from 2007-2008?

          And bully for you on your reality. Glad for you. Truly. Really glad that you have never had first hand experience with some of the issues being discussed. Wouldn't wish them on anyone. Thing is, you did nothing to earn it other than being born in your skin just like others have done nothing to deserve the treatment they've received except being born in theirs.

          We view "The Handmaid's Tale" as cautionary. The GOP views it as an instruction book.

          by Vita Brevis on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:55:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Your old mumpsimus (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TomP
          You expect me to erase over 60 years of my own experience and put on another reality and why would I do that?
          There isn't my reality and your reality. There's just reality. The police do some good things in some places. And they do some bad things in some places. And just because you haven't been in those places and seen the bad things with your own eyes doesn't make them any less real. Do you believe in Mount Everest? Have you ever been there?

          There is ample evidence, to anyone who cares to open their eyes, that something is very wrong. Just because it isn't wrong everywhere, at all times, should not mean that you refuse to see what is wrong.

          ... why would I do that?  What is in it for me?
          There is a wonderful story about a local priest in some remote rural parish, back in the days when priests gave the mass in Latin. And this priest wasn't so well versed in Latin, but he had learned the mass by heart, and he had learned it wrong. At one point, he used the word "mumpsimus", which isn't a word at all, but that was the way he had memorized it.

          One day, the bishop came to his church and heard him perform the mass, and afterwards the bishop took him aside and told him, "Father, you did very well, but at one point you said, 'Mumpsimus'. Surely you know the word is actually 'Sumpsimus'?"

          And the priest, who had been giving the mass (wrong) the same way for years and years, replied, "I refuse to give up my old mumpsimus for your new sumpsimus!"

          By the way, who is the "INEVITABLE ONE"?

          La majestueuse égalité des lois, qui interdit au riche comme au pauvre de coucher sous les ponts, de mendier dans les rues, et de voler du pain.

          by dconrad on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:19:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  But police treat different people differently (7+ / 0-)

          How hard is that to understand?  Much easier if you live in an integrated community and know black people, particularly young men.  But still.

          This is not zero sum.  It does not detract in any way from the validity of your experience to acknowledge that people who have a skin color different from you are treated differently by the police.

          Don't bet your future on 97% of climate scientists being wrong. Take action on climate now!

          by Mimikatz on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:25:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  This little old white lady lives a life similar to (5+ / 0-)

          yours, and thinks you're full of sh*t! Do you honestly think we're who we are just because we're so special and worthy? We didn't do a darn thing to earn our privilege - we just got real lucky! We could just as easily have been on of the old ladies we see in pictures, holding a dying grandchild in our laps due to war or starvation or disease. You don't deserve what you have and you won't until you develop a heart and a conscience. My 2 cents.

        •  It also reeks of wearing blinders (5+ / 0-)

          Seriously, I understand your reality.  I'm a white guy who lives in a nice suburb in Texas with a good police department.  My interactions with that local police department have been decent -- and rare.  I appreciate that.

          But I'm not so narrow that I can't understand that it is otherwise for other people.  Not all police departments are as good as the one in the town that I live in.  For that matter, the experience that I've had is based on interaction with a limited number of cops, and there could conceivably be some "bad apples" within the local police department.  And I can recognize that some of those police officers might react to me differently were I black or Hispanic.

          It takes nothing whatsoever away from my own personal experience for me to acknowledge and accept that others can have a different experience.  And to recognize that their experiences are every bit as real as mine.

          You might want to give that a try, instead of retreating behind a thick layer of Minnesota stubborn.

          If Democrats proclaim the the Earth is round and Republicans insist it is flat, we will shortly see a column in the Washington Post claiming the the earth is really a semi-circle.

          by TexasTom on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 10:25:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But it's only the other experience we've been (0+ / 0-)

            hearing here for two weeks.  Everyone keep reinforcing the same narrative over and over and over again.  But the problem is not merely that others are white, it's that we live in a different reality and there is no pragmatic reason whatever for me to change what works for me.  People howl that I am racist for simply reporting the bad news, which is actually good news, that some communities work well and people are happy and feel well served by their local governments.  

            If you come knock on my door and rant at me about the police do you think that gets my vote or my neighbor's vote?  Of course not.

            So while Democrats are going into Labor Day running against the police, they're probably losing a Senate seat in Iowa and if the local and state DFL party wasn't so darn strong in Minnesota they'd be losing a seat here because like MO and IA we're over 80% white.  We are the voters you have.  You can wish you had other voters but that's as magical as thinking white privilege is going to motivate white voters to do anything but join the Republican Party.

            •  Heh (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TomP, red rabbit, ChadmanFL, stringer bell

              No, we call you a racist because that's what you are. I feel so sorry for you. To live your life and think the way you do must require you to deliberately remain blind to so much of life. What a shallow existence you must live to be able to maintain your beliefs.

              Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

              by moviemeister76 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 11:16:30 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  local politics (4+ / 0-)

              who's saying that candidates in certain regions should be ranting against the cops?  In case you haven't notice, this site covers national politics and issues around the country, and the thing about your attitude that bothers so many people is your "I'm fine, so fuck anyone who isn't" attitude.

              Think that we should care more about entitlements?  Why the fuck should I give two shits whether old white racists like you receive SS or Medicare?  I don't receive it, and don't know if I'll live to, so why should I continue to support the withholding from my hard earned pay?  I'm just fine, so next time you consider posting complaints about entitlement issues, take it somewhere else.  We got enough old people sucking at the public teat.
              Sound selfish and ageist?  Maybe you'll know how others here feel reading your nonsense.  Or maybe not, since you obviously don't care about anyone or anything outside your little white oasis.    

              you can shit on my face but that doesn't mean I have to lick my lips

              by red rabbit on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 12:06:53 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  But you are not the one making change in Minnes... (0+ / 0-)

              But you are not the one making change in Minnesota. Obama praised Minneapolis police for a reason and that's be ause effort is beingade to address racial issues without making an enemy of las enforcement. Your blissful experience is based on the hard work and brave strides across racial and cultural divde by others in your state. You clearly have no idea about what is happening in your state which is hilarious considering it has the largest east African and Laotian population in the country...

        •  the problem doesn't affect you personally (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          moviemeister76, vpd4, TomP, bryduck

          so why should you give a shit about anyone else outside of your little sphere of reality?  Well, I have this thing called concern for my fellow citizens, where I demand change even if I'm not experiencing a problem directly or personally.  Something called empathy, or at least making an effort to understand another person's perspective, that selfish, thoughtless racists like you clearly lack.

          you can shit on my face but that doesn't mean I have to lick my lips

          by red rabbit on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 10:43:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  This little old white lady knows (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          red rabbit, TomP

          when and where to vote as well.  It will be at my precinct and it will be a straight Democratic vote.  You, my dear, may go straight to....  well your undoubtedly all white precinct and do the same.
          I am not better than you but a damn sight smarter.

          "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

          by cowdab on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 11:00:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  My reality is white skin (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TomP, stringer bell

          and generally positive interactions with police too. But I can recognize rank brutality and injustice when I see it. I can also empathize with the parents of a murdered child regardless of their ethnic background. And I don't need a policeman to arrest ME for fitting a profile, beat ME up, or shoot me or my children before I decide that those things are wrong. I would hope most little old white ladies would be appalled by the killing of this young man by a police officer.

      •  not all white people think like this (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TomP, ChadmanFL
    •  Oh wow (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TomP, Vita Brevis, rudewarrior, mikejay611

      I'm now having flashbacks to my childhood.

      Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

      by moviemeister76 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 07:57:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Must be nice for you; for those of us who (11+ / 0-)

      are law abiding tax paying home owners, the police can murder us because it's ok with white people because

      I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

      by a2nite on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 07:57:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  White Person: "Gee, the police are nice to ME".... (10+ / 0-)

      greenbell also has Whitesplainin' down perfectly.

      Glad SOMEBODY doesn't hafta worry about being harmed by cops.

      "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

      by leftykook on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:08:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  How about your kids? Or your grandkids? (6+ / 0-)

      Especially the boys?

    •  Well then, racism's over (6+ / 0-)

      Cops are always angels

      Thanks for letting us know.

      We view "The Handmaid's Tale" as cautionary. The GOP views it as an instruction book.

      by Vita Brevis on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:14:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I guess I should thank you (5+ / 0-)

      Thank you so much for leading the way in showing how fucking racist some white folks are here.

      Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

      by moviemeister76 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:21:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks for the whitesplanation (8+ / 0-)

      You added so much to the dialogue.  (Yes, that was sarcasm)

    •  So no policeman has ever done wrong? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dconrad, TomP, Victor Ward, vpd4

      What about black police officers?   How about Mexcian police officers?   How about Mexican police officers in Mexico?

      How about T. Eugene "Bull" Connor?    How about the guy who shot the partially deaf (Native American) woodcarver in Seattle recently?    

      Can you admit that there is a possibility that some people are not fit to be police officers, and that we can complain about them without maligning the whole profession (or white race?)

      •  Okay, off topic, but I gotta ask (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TomP

        Did you look that up or did you actually happen to know "Bull" Connor's full name?

        La majestueuse égalité des lois, qui interdit au riche comme au pauvre de coucher sous les ponts, de mendier dans les rues, et de voler du pain.

        by dconrad on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:30:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Are the cops on the ballot? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TomP, Vita Brevis, shanikka
      We will be voting in November and we will not be voting against the cops.
      I didn't realize police officer was an elected position.

      Since we're talking about ourselves in the third person, dconrad has had both good and bad experiences with the police. And dconrad is glad to hear you've had good experiences. Certainly, dconrad has never had any really bad experiences — not like some of the tragic cases we hear about — but dconrad still recognizes that the good cases don't cancel out the bad cases.

      Greenbell ... gets the voting done early in time for coffee.
      You do realize they sell coffee 24 hours a day, right?

      La majestueuse égalité des lois, qui interdit au riche comme au pauvre de coucher sous les ponts, de mendier dans les rues, et de voler du pain.

      by dconrad on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:09:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hey have we had dozens or is it hundreds now (0+ / 0-)

        diaries ranting against the cops?  And here is little old me venturing to express a contrary life experience from my sheltered racist white life in the land of white picket fences (are white fences racist too)?

        And I do not know why you would be buying coffee 24 hours a day when it keeps you awake if you don't drink it early in the day.  

        •  oh, we need to talk about something else? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TomP, CPL 1234

          the typical whine of the troll.  And gee, the cops aren't bad everywhere, especially in mosty white areas with white police?  Wow, thanks for the enlightenment, I never would have known that without your whitesplaining!  
          You and dinotrac together make up one dim bulb, at best.

          you can shit on my face but that doesn't mean I have to lick my lips

          by red rabbit on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 11:31:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  There are bad school bus drivers, aren't there (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TomP

      bad cops?

    •  After dozens of greenbell comments, (16+ / 0-)

      frankaletha feels it is her duty to report that the Minnesota cops have routinely harassed her sons.  Both of them are really big men (over 6 feet), whose very bodies are considered weapons by some.  But they are also both productively employed college graduates and nice guys.

      Frankaletha typically disagrees with greenbell and worries about living in the same community with her.  Greenbell seems to put her head in the sand when it comes to issues of race.  For example, even though both of Frankaletha's kids have graduated from college and have good jobs, they came out of a school system that has the highest racial achievement gap in the nation.

      I've been watching greenbell's comments on racial matters for quite some time and have never bothered to respond to them before, even though I generally disagree with her.  But this time, I have taken her comments very personally.  Every Black man I know, my father, my brother, my grandfather, has been harassed at some point by the police.  They have behaved like an occupying army in our communities, but it doesn't surprise me that greenbell denies this.  After all, as Tim Wise frequently points out, White people in the 1950s believed that the educational system was equal (Jim Crow be damned).  This stuff is structural and therefore the denialism is to be expected.

      By the way, I normally don't refer to myself in the 3rd person.  I'm doing so here in your honor.  And please have a good time at the fair.  I live very close to the fairgrounds.

    •  wow (4+ / 0-)

      just wow.  I think you do deserve some sort of recognition for at least having the guts to so proudly and completely declare your racism and white privilege, as well as extra credit for creepiness by writing in the third person.  Oh, and a little smear of the president just for good measure.  

      you can shit on my face but that doesn't mean I have to lick my lips

      by red rabbit on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:50:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Are You Used to (5+ / 0-)

      Talking about yourself in the third person? It's a little disconcerting.

      (On the merits of your comment, I am so glad things are working out so well for you as a white homeowning suburban woman with law enforcement.)

      America: just admit that you still don't want your Black citizens to live in any state other than terror, subservience and inferiority, under pain of death. I can handle American racism, but I can't handle American denial.

      by shanikka on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 10:00:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And it IS, of course "all about YOU", greenbell (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      moviemeister76, TomP, red rabbit

      You are, of course, exactly who cops have been conditioned from their Boy Scout days to treat with deference and consideration.  Given a chance, they'll take your arm and guide you across the street.

      Now, I never condemn someone for acting voting or speaking in accordance with their own  Class Interest ...  People with independent incomes SHOULD be Republicans -- though no one should take Faux News too seriously, stock portfolio or not.

      I can see that you identify with the need to "keep the Riff Raff DOWN~!!"

      And frankly, the world IS a safer and more pleasant place for you if the sketchy, the shady, and the hoodie-clad are kept in their place ... by whatever means, -- and screw the Due Process.

      But, that safety and comfort come at a price.  Sometimes the price is "life itself."

      Thank goodness, the price is only paid by Other People ...  never by people like YOU -- "for the most part."  

      Mistakes are made.  Accidents do happen.

      (I love, by the way, the way you speak of yourself in the Third Person.  )

    •  Also, is talking about yourself in the 3rd person (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      moviemeister76, TomP

      Really necessary?

    •  So, what's your point (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      moviemeister76, TomP, red rabbit

      Black people should turn white, like you?
      Black people should disappear?
      Black people are not as well behaved as white?
      Black people bring it on themselves?
      Black people don't attend state fairs in Minnesota?
      I don't wonder!

      "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

      by cowdab on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 10:56:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  asdf (9+ / 0-)

    We view "The Handmaid's Tale" as cautionary. The GOP views it as an instruction book.

    by Vita Brevis on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:07:50 AM PDT

  •  Where was this survey taken? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, mikejay611, Mimikatz, shanikka

    "states like VT and ID are not 'real america'" -icemilkcoffee

    by Utahrd on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:17:11 AM PDT

  •  Of course they do. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Vita Brevis, mikejay611, TomP

    They can live in that bubble for so long before the oxygen runs out.

    "Speak with your chest, bro. You a man!" - Ferguson citizen to Gov. Nixon

    by jazzence on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:25:02 AM PDT

  •  To authoritarians, the police are.not the probl... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, mikejay611, TomP, Mimikatz

    To authoritarians, the police are.not the problem, it is those who question the police that are the problem.

  •  Preach Sista!! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    moviemeister76, TomP

    Spot on...

    Republicans are counting on the fact that fear makes people do stupid things. Like voting Republican.. ~ Ian Reifowitz

    by mikejay611 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:31:51 AM PDT

  •  I don't thinks white and black are treated (8+ / 0-)

    equally and I'm white. Only an idiot would think that IMO. So there must be a large group of white who are idiots.

    "The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"

    by Lily O Lady on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:33:38 AM PDT

  •  I'm White (5+ / 0-)

    I KNOW Not to believe that. I grew up near a Native American Reservation. Need I say more?
    Anybody-and I mean Anybody who does Not fit "their" Approved personal status and skin color etc? Isn't going to be treated fairly and Neither do white people If they stand with and defend their friends against injustices.

  •  Silver lining? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP

    I clicked on the link. The poll shows a large disparity between white and black views of the police - that's definitely true. But it also shows a pretty large dissatisfaction with the police among white people, more than I think would have been the case before these high-publicized tragedies of recent years.

    The 38% figure Laura cites is reached by aggregating the 9% who said the police do an "excellent" job and the 29% who say they do a "good" job (black respondents said 3% "excellent" and 7% "good"). If we similarly aggregate the white respondents who said "only fair" or "poor" for this question, we get 58% of white respondents who don't think the police do a good job at treating people of different backgrounds equally.

    Likewise, white respondents have the police in negative territory on accountability (37/58), use of "the right amount of force" (41/55), and respecting privacy (43/53). In all of these categories black respondents are, understandably, even more down on the police (about 90% negative on most questions) but I'd guess the disparities are growing smaller as a growing number even of white people become disenchanted with police excess.

    Now if we could only translate that into real change.  

    “Republicans...think American standard of living is a fine thing--so long as it doesn't spread to all the people... And they admire of Government of the United States so much that they would like to buy it.” Harry S. Truman

    by fenway49 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:44:33 AM PDT

  •  Same thing if you look 'Mexican'. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, samantha in oregon, a2nite

    As the author says, it really has to do with experience.   I don't think there is anything more subtle or devious than that; most white people (myself included) have had no poor interactions with police that they didn't deserve to some degree.

    It is very much like well-off kids of well-off parents opining about how easy it must be to live on minimum wage or food stamps.  

  •  Of course whites believe this (5+ / 0-)

    I am white and pretty much every white person I know, minus a few very liberal ones like myself generally hold the view that all races are treated equally by police.  They write off higher arrest rates for minority groups by claiming "those groups of people contain more criminals.   It is easy to have that view when you're part of the protected class/race.  To them racial profiling is a liberal lie they refuse to believe.  

    A black coworker of mine with an advanced degree and no criminal record has been pulled over by the police 3 or 4 times for made up reasons and had his car searched more than once in just the last year.  Every time he ended up being let go as he did nothing wrong.  Not once have I ever been put in any such circumstance by the police.  I can't help but believe it's because I'm white and he isn't.

  •  The closest I've come was being a "hippie boy" (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, moviemeister76, Victor Ward

    way back in the day when cops came after us with "riot batons" and tear gas and badges tucked in their pockets.

    Not all that pleasant.

    But...

    we could cut our hair, change our clothes, and fade into the crowd any time we chose to.  Hard to do that when your very skin makes you stand out.

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:51:15 AM PDT

  •  I was wondering about Ice Cube playing a cop (3+ / 0-)

    Going from "Fuck Tha Police" to playing a cop.  And in "Barbershop" the cops save the day (the cop in charge is black).

    And I was thinking-- even gangsta rappers (or former gangsta rappers) are trying to improve the image of cops in the black community by focusing on good cops who do their job and try to keep people safe.

    So it tells you how awful and racist the police are overall that only 10% of blacks think the police treat people equally.

    I bring it up because I've always been into all those gangsta raps that are anti-police.  I've been playing "Fuck Tha Police" a lot lately.

    "There's a war on the black male" ~ Spike Lee

    by samantha in oregon on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 08:54:29 AM PDT

  •  Call for Volunteers 4 Ferguson Public Records Rqst (0+ / 0-)

    If you can email public records requests regarding the Ferguson shooting - please email me (and share this infer)

    charliegrapski@pinac.org

  •  Ferguson cops in particular look comically inep... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, Vita Brevis, Chitown Kev

    Ferguson cops in particular look comically inept and would be hilarious were it not for their Jim Crow wannabe attitudes. Deadly for any citizen.

  •  The best explanation for the disparity (0+ / 0-)

    in perception comes from @GeeDee215.  He did a Storify on it.

  •  I wouldn't have such a problem with it (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stringer bell
    According to a new Pew Research Center/USA Today survey, whites are nearly four times as likely than blacks to say police do an excellent or good job at treating racial and ethnic groups equally
    Okay. Okay, I mean, four times more likely could mean that only 1% of blacks think they do a good job, and 4% of whites think they do. Or maybe 2% and 8%. I mean, just because something is four times more likely, that doesn't necessarily mean it's—
    38 percent of whites give police high marks on equality, while just 10 percent of African Americans do the same. The numbers are similar for views on how well police do at holding officers accountable when misconduct occurs, and the gap is even larger on the question of whether police use the right amount of force for each situation.
    38 percent? Do these people watch the news? How can anyone think that the police generally do a good job on these things? Maybe the police themselves, and their immediate friends and family.

    But if 3 out of 8 white people (3/8 is approximately 38%) think the police are generally doing a pretty good job in these areas, they have to be thick as bricks, or have blinders on. Willfully self-applied blinders.

    I am reminded (as I often am) of a wonderful exchange from the fantastic Neil Simon comedy Seems Like Old Times with Chevy Chase and Goldie Hawn. Chase's character is on the lam, and Hawn's character is urging him to turn himself in. The following exchange then takes place between the two of them and her black chauffeur:

    Glenda Gardenia Parks: If you're innocent, they'll never send you to jail.
    Nick Gardenia: Is that how it works, Chester?
    Chester: Not in my neighborhood.

    La majestueuse égalité des lois, qui interdit au riche comme au pauvre de coucher sous les ponts, de mendier dans les rues, et de voler du pain.

    by dconrad on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:03:50 AM PDT

  •  East Austin (3+ / 0-)

    In Austin, Tx the City Council issued a report in the early 1920s that made a significant determination.

    They had decided to create an area, which became East Austin, east of Interstate 35, where the infrastructure investment was to be less, where it was OK to "redline" home loans, and where the minority populations were to be kept where they could easily be observed and policed.  These were, in the colloquial language of the era, "no count people."  

    By the 1960s this had become an area most heavily populated on the south end by Hispanics and on the north end by Blacks.  Since then a variety of efforts to accomplish economic development have begun to turn this historic injustice around.  

    But the deal is still the same.  Economics in America are based on the unwritten assumption that some must be valued less than others, so that some can be valued highly.  

    I drove a cab for a while and wrote articles about the drug scene that you could witness from behind the wheel.  What you have is essentially a proposition that is given to energetic youth eager to take a risk in order to get ahead.  The proposition is that  you might die and get arrested many times a year, but in the end, you could join the wealthy class because it is all about risk and reward.  So from behind the wheel, you could literally see that there were thousands out on the streets.  

    Meanwhile, the real drug dealing was done in high rise offices and out on ranch lands where no one would suspect anything untoward might be happening.  You could land a plane from Mexico and not be noticed out there.  

    The inventory on the streets comes from people who can take a risk worth hundreds of thousands or even millions without worrying about it too much.   Privacy costs money
    and those with it can escape scrutiny a lot better than those who are visible out on the street corners.  

    The public and the politicians therefore focus on the street corner where the faces might be black or might be hispanic.

    The police can't chase down people in the tall buildings who are ordering up transactions that they can be insulated from, because this takes incredible FBI level detection.  

    So the police bust the streetcorner guys, over and over.  It is of course, quite frustrating to be arresting the same people over and over without being able to get at anything remotely resembling the cause.

    The problem is that most people are happy to be unaware.  I did a series of experiments in which I asked people from West Austin what they knew about all this and when I started to fill them in, see what their reaction was.  No one wanted to be informed.  Their investment was in their own comfort.  

    Economic Development will eventually replace the blighted streets that provice a kind of delicious late night entertainment for bored college kids and upper middle class suburbanites.  But the basic deal in which society burns people in order to fuel the engines of the economy in general is still in effect.  

    That is what needs to be addressed.  We need real economic development and it has to be based on open eyed understanding of what is going on.  

    Ending the War on Drugs would be a start, but it needs to happen with a lot of debate.  That debate is not happening.

    hope that the idiots who have no constructive and creative solutions but only look to tear down will not win the day.

    by Stuart Heady on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:04:54 AM PDT

  •  I wonder how white people would feel... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dconrad, Vita Brevis

    if they were routinely stopped in their automobiles by Black police officers and ordered to step out, put their hands on the hood of the car and be patted down...
    Then told to get back in their vehicle and wait until the second Black officer 'runs' their license and registration...taking his own sweet time doing so.
    i wonder how they would feel if Black police officers were routinely patrolling their suburban streets, aggressively stopping their kids for jaywalking, or 'loitering' in public areas?
    I wonder how a Wall Street executive would feel if he was treated like Charles Belk...
    Tightly handcuffed, made to sit on the curb for 45 minutes before being taken to the police station and held for six hours without a phone call or representation, simply because he 'fit the description' of someone who had committed a crime...
    How he would feel if the arresting officers were Black?
    Those who responded by saying that they see no difference in the way races are treated by law enforcement suffer from a profound lack of ability to empathize with others...
    That, or no desire to do so....
    Which is just as bad, if not worse.

    "These 'Yet To Be' United States" --James Baldwin-- -6.75, -5.78

    by kevinbr38 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 09:25:29 AM PDT

  •  Let's send some people down to Wall Street, try... (0+ / 0-)

    Let's send some people down to Wall Street, try it out.

  •  Pretty amazing (0+ / 0-)

    I think it's pretty amazing that white people think white cops are less of a threat to them, than black people think white cops are a threat to them.  Huh.  Who'd a thunk it.  I wonder what white people would think of cops if the cops  were all black, who called them derogatory names, routinely violate their Constitutional rights, and beat them at every chance they got.  Anyone stupid enough to think whites would love the cops if the cops were all black is probably a Republican.

  •  Equally: I don't want to be treated that way (0+ / 0-)

    There are of two ways to create equality.  Fewer cop on black shootings or more cop on white shootings.  I'm white and don't want to be gunned down equally or otherwise.  The issue is the us against them attitude of the cops which is promoted by a military style system and training.  We are not their enemy.  We are their employers.  Out of control monsters turn on their creators and that would be us. I don't want to be treated equally as shown in the picture.  

    A bad idea isn't responsible for those who believe it. ---Stephen Cannell

    by YellerDog on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 02:47:14 PM PDT

  •  I'm not apologetic in the least (0+ / 0-)

    These steroid pumped white, conservative riff raff, look phkn ridicules in these overamped party costumes.  Who the phk are you trying to fool?  This kind of tactic is MORE THAN STUPID, get a hold of yourselves guys, you've been swindled into lowering your class as humans.  In the proceeding future, you will be looked on as thugs (pretty much, already are) and mutants.  We won't put you in solitary however, we'll put you all in a big cell and let you work out your differences there.....one big crappy pile of whatever.

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