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A makeshift memorial is pictured where black teenager Michael Brown was shot to death by police last weekend in Ferguson, Missouri August 13, 2014. The police officer involved in the fatal shooting of Brown last weekend in Ferguson, Missouri, an incident
An amoral conservative blogger and an actual newspaper are insisting that if Michael Brown had a juvenile arrest record, it should be made public so they can blame him for his killing by police officer Darren Wilson. Because in America, that's how we roll these days. Police officer repeatedly and fatally shoots unarmed teenager and the police and the media rush to find reasons to blame the dead unarmed teenager.

So now shoplifting or smoking pot as a juvenile is going to be used as justification for police execution months or years later? Is that going to be a universal policy? Maybe we should just pass laws establishing a lottery into which every teenager arrested for anything ever is entered, and those whose names come up in the lottery are just shot dead by the police on the spot. Only when I say "every teenager arrested for anything ever is entered," really I just mean the black ones.

It can't be too hard to get a juvenile record in Ferguson, where in 2013 there were 10,000 more arrest warrants issued for nonviolent offenses than there were residents of the town. So you criminalize virtually everyone (or, you know, everyone black or brown or poor), then use their criminal records as your excuse for killing them in the street. It's appalling and shameful, and it's clearly the policy in Ferguson.

The St. Louis Post-Dispatch should be ashamed of itself for seeking Michael Brown's juvenile records that may or may not exist; Charles C. Johnson is clearly beyond shame. Johnson insistently describes himself as an "award-winning journalist," with one of his major awards being a college journalism prize named after a New York Post editorial page editor and with a prize including an internship at Fox News. He's perhaps best known for his coverage of the Republican Senate run-off in Mississippi, where a media call held by Sen. Thad Cochran's campaign was interrupted by someone asking "if the black people were harvesting cotton why do you think it's okay to harvest their votes" after Johnson "reported" that the Cochran campaign was buying black votes, then tweeted out the call-in information for the campaign media call. Johnson has also recently distinguished himself with a series of tweets attacking James Foley after the journalist's beheading. He's already claimed that Michael Brown's hypothetical juvenile record included second-degree murder charges.

Charles C. Johnson is particularly repugnant, but he's enabled by a culture and a media that presumes that it's legitimate to blame an unarmed teenager for his own shooting death if he's black and has ever smoked pot, listened to rap, or been arrested—rightly or wrongly—at any point in his life.

10:45 AM PT: The St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports that, according to a court official, Michael Brown was never convicted or charged with a class A or B felony. So will the Post-Dispatch drop its hunt for Brown's juvenile records, or is it going to press on looking for speeding tickets?

Originally posted to Laura Clawson on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 09:02 AM PDT.

Also republished by Black Kos community and Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Trolls - literally (12+ / 0-)

    I think the 'claim' is that Michael Brown had a Juvenile Murder charge and that he was therefore some sort of killing machine.

    The devolution of print media continues(Not that web media is exactly golden either.

    I repeat, Trolls.

    Look, I tried to be reasonable...

    by campionrules on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 09:05:14 AM PDT

  •  What we are learning in this process... (26+ / 0-)

    ...is how powerful the allure of authoritarianism is to the American right.

    Their reaction to the perceived challenge to the assumption that LEOs are always right, by default, has been hysterical.

    So, basically, here's another pathology we need to contend with head-on.

    Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is most important that you do it.

    by The Termite on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 09:22:10 AM PDT

  •  Ugh... (12+ / 0-)

    reminds me of the time in 2000 when Rudy Giuliani revealed Patrick Dorismond's SEALED juvenile record.  It disgusted a lot of people and Rudy's popularity sank to new lows, staying there until the WTC attacks made him "'Murka's Mayor".

    "Valerie, why am I getting all these emails calling me a classless boor?"

    by TLS66 on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 09:42:44 AM PDT

  •  Or join a lottery where many are chosen to fight (6+ / 0-)

    to the death for their entertainment and amusement value. America hasn't gotten dystopian enough, we apparently need to go full Hunger Games crazy.  Gotta entertain the racists masses, right?

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself - FDR. Obama Nation. -6.13 -6.15

    by ecostar on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 09:51:14 AM PDT

  •  So what bullshit justification (3+ / 0-)

    has the Post-Dispatch given for seeking these?  Aren't juvenile files kept private for a reason?

    Oh what fresh hell is this?

    by Philpm on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 09:52:12 AM PDT

    •  Juvenile Records (7+ / 0-)

      There have been cases where the Juvenile Records are released, and as MB is not alive, the rules may not apply to him and the records may be released.
      And why say "MB's Records were sealed when he turned 18 (an adult) if there were no records to be sealed".  That makes absolutely no sense, you cannot seal something that doesn't exist!!

      •  Excerpt from the linked Fox News article (8+ / 0-)

        regarding one released juvenile record:

        But Washington University law professor Mae Quinn, director of the school's juvenile law clinic, called the case cited by Johnson, editor-in-chief of the website GotNews.com, "completely irrelevant," since he does not have a vested legal interest in the Brown case.

        "The biggest distinction is they were real parties to a real suit," she said, referring to the grocery store owners' successful challenge for the juvenile records. "There was a real dispute. That's a major distinction."

        IOW and IMO, prurient interest may be insufficient cause to release anything related to Michael Brown.

        I, too, was surprised that the St. Louis Post-Dispatch was a party to this.  I'd always assumed that it was reputable but I think maybe I was wrong.  

        We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

        by Observerinvancouver on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 10:17:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Who da fuck (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        middleagedhousewife

        is "We"? Not me. Gateway Pundit is east of here. You will fit in better there.

      •  Gee, so sad you got Bojo'd, "WeAreDarrenWilson" (0+ / 0-)

        I'm sure you had a whole fuck of a lot to contribute to the discussion here.

        Inside of me are two dogs. One is mean and evil. The other is gentle and good. The two dogs fight all the time. Which dog wins? The one I feed the most.

        by bakeneko on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 05:51:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  In fairness (7+ / 0-)

    In all fairness to us real Americans, this sort of crap is repugnant.

    The media lap this shit up because, as far as cable news is concerned, they only need a couple million people to tune in during prime time to call it a victory.

    Fox News is happy to get 3 million viewers at any given time, that's like 1 percent the entire population. So while it may seem like they represent a large swath of Amurka, the reality is that it's a tiny tiny sliver.

    And even if you expand outside of cable news, the percentage of Americans who are actually paying attention to this story AND who think that attacking the victim is still tiny minority.

    That's why the GOP is fucked. They believe their own hype and fool themselves into thinking that being a radical racist dipshit will play nationally. It doesn't and the Dems will hold the White House for decades to come while the GOP struggles to hold the House.

    •  A bit OT, but holding the White House for (0+ / 0-)

      decades to come won't be worth a "bucket of warm piss"

      http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      unless there are a co-operative Congress and co-operative state governments too.  

      A Democratic president without backup would be a bit like the king of the grove.

      James George Frazer, in his seminal work The Golden Bough, argued that the tale of the priesthood of Nemi was an instance of a worldwide myth of a sacred king who must periodically die as part of a regular fertility rite.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

      by Observerinvancouver on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 10:31:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  They are putting the dead victim on trial. (15+ / 0-)

    Where are the juvie records on this murdering cop? He's alive, at least we CAN try him.

    A true craftsman will meticulously construct the apparatus of his own demise.

    by onionjim on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 09:54:20 AM PDT

  •  It's part of the white supremacist MO; it's (14+ / 0-)

    his fault that he got murdered because it is "blame the negro" always, because.

    I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

    by a2nite on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 09:55:16 AM PDT

  •  why can't they understand that it doesn't matter? (24+ / 0-)

    Michael Brown was gunned down while unarmed and surrendering.  That's it.  It doesn't matter if he was a nice guy or a bad guy.  Charles Freakin' Manson could be standing there with his hands up and get gunned down and it'd still be wrong.

    Whether the kid was an angel or a thug, the cop didn't know him.  He shot him while he was being no threat.  That is the problem.  No examining-of-his-record is going to do a damn thing to change the wrongness of the situation.   None of this shit they're trying to dig up serves any useful purpose whatsoever.

    "Glenn Beck ends up looking like a fat, stupid child. His face should be wearing a chef's hat on the side of a box of eclairs. " - Doug Stanhope

    by Front Toward Enemy on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 09:55:32 AM PDT

    •  Because they're stupid (12+ / 0-)

      I realize that sounds blunt, but if you don't believe me, try this the next time you hear a RWNJ bloviate about the constitution: ask him to recite a few words from the preamble, or better yet, ask him to tell you what the 19th amendment is.

      I promise you he'll have no idea. I've tried it a lot. It has yet to fail.

      So what we have on our hands are people who claim allegiance to a document they've never read, but yet insist that they understand it better than the president, who practiced constitutional law.

      Now consider that people like this form the foundation of the court of public opinion.

      It's pretty scary. The loudest and most vociferous among us are the dumbest. By a fur piece.

      Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is most important that you do it.

      by The Termite on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 10:00:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Actually that's in dispute (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AlexDrew, OrganicChemist

      Apparently Wilson says Brown was charging at him.  If he has witnesses who support that contention then it will be a swearing contest, and extrinsic evidence can be probative.  There is a question whether Brown's juvenile records, if they show a propensity for violence, will be admissible on that point, but it is a legitimate issue for the courts at that point.  So, no, we don't know if Brown was gunned down while surrendering.  We know some witnesses say so, but we don't know if for a fact yet.  Whether the press has a right to the records is an issue of Mo. law, so Mo. courts will rule.

      •  just as... (4+ / 0-)

        ... even if we knew Brown had a bad juvie record, we wouldn't be able to say he was charging Wilson.  If I have five speeding tickets on my record, it doesn't mean I'm always speeding.  It's worthless info.

        "Glenn Beck ends up looking like a fat, stupid child. His face should be wearing a chef's hat on the side of a box of eclairs. " - Doug Stanhope

        by Front Toward Enemy on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 01:06:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm extremely tired (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kfunk937

        Of anyone repeating the charging allegation.

        Who the fuck would charge someone shooting at them?

        Nobody ffs.

        It's ridiculous and shameful.

        •  Ridiculous on both sides (0+ / 0-)

          It is also ridiculous that the cop would shoot someone when he was surrendering, or shoot someone for jaywalking.  So what you are assuming happened is just as ridiculous.  Yet something happened.  We can either make assumptions based on our prejudgments, or wait for the evidence.

          •  No it's not equivalent! (0+ / 0-)

            There are thousands of instances of excessive use of force and unjustified killings by the police over trivial matters. (Found justified, even in cases where there is video showing them doing it, such is the state of how much trust is put into police testimony over facts). But in any case, most cases don't make it to the criminal charge stage because much of what breeds this behavior has been codified into law.

            So it is not a ridiculous scenario at all.

            And so far, I haven't even been talking race. That is across the board police v citizen behavior.

            The only real cases of people charging the police are in cases of PCP, and rarely, mental illness, both of which have been ruled out in this case.

            No, the majority of the cases of big unarmed black guys charging a police officer lives in these very police officers heads. It's a huge mythology that needs to be addressed!

            And it is based on race and white fear.

  •  unbelievable racism from that crowd, basically. (8+ / 0-)

    like why in the entire fuck is his juvenile record even relevant. He was shot down in cold blood!

    Dawkins is to atheism as Rand is to personal responsibility. Russia Today=FoxNews, Seralini=Wakefield. yadda yadda.

    by terrypinder on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 09:57:58 AM PDT

  •  I'd say it is shocking (11+ / 0-)

    But sadly it isn't

    Some people do not argue in good faith. Their only purpose is to disrupt and cause strife. Best to not engage them.

    by Drewid on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 09:58:28 AM PDT

  •  Related news, White cop pulls gun on black fireman (6+ / 0-)

    and his kids . . .

    "Speak out, judge fairly, and defend the rights of oppressed and needy people." Proverbs 31:9

    by zdefender on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 10:06:24 AM PDT

    •  Doing your job while black (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      a2nite, zdefender, Ahianne

      It really is just "existing while black", isn't it?

    •  I can see racists complaining that cops can't (9+ / 0-)

      do their job anymore b/c anytime one stops a "black" guy they may be suspended etc.  It's the same argument made about the President.  I hear many of them say, "I can't criticized him because he's 'black'."  They miss the point.

      The cop stopped the man and his kids because they didn't look the part.  Had Mr. Jones looked more like Andy Griffith instead of the President more than likely the police officer would have acted differently.  Mr. Jones believes that and without hearing anything from the officer I am going to go with the father in this instance.

      I wish we would stop arguing about whether racism exists in America, and accept that it does.  Isn't it funny that the people who live it everyday are dismissed on the subject?  That's like talking about birth control and leaving the women-folk out of the discussion .

    •  Burglarizing a fire station with two kids (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      a2nite, zdefender, Ahianne

      in tow?  Srsly?  

      Has anyone done any studies of how many black men carry guns in public?  My uneducated guess would be damn few, esp. as compared to whites.  Maybe police academies should have a simple statistics course as part of their curriculum.

      We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

      by Observerinvancouver on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 10:46:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  OF course the juvi records of Ferguson police (6+ / 0-)

    force will be released as well  ....  NOT.

    We are all made of star stuff, so please be kind to dust bunnies.

    by jwinIL14 on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 10:08:59 AM PDT

  •  Logic is not their strong suit. Let's hope this (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm

    desperate and disgusting tactic denigrates them in the eyes of most citizens.

    •  Logic doesn't matter; it depends on what (0+ / 0-)

      someone feels (hidden bias).

      I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

      by a2nite on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 10:50:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Patrick Dorismond was murdered by NYPD (5+ / 0-)

    and had his SEALED juvenile records exposed by giuliani, for the same reasons as this is being done.  Truly disgusting and revolting:  a sitting mayor.  Piece of shit.

    If this is what they truly believe in, why not show some real guts, and just push for execution for any juvenile offense?  Why not??  C'mon, have some guts! Make some sense for a change, assholes!

    If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when? Rabbi Hillel the Elder, Ethics of the Fathers. Corporadeus

    by Floyd Blue on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 10:20:14 AM PDT

  •  OK his Juvenile records (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Philpm

    for the Cops Juvenile records along with his personal file!

    after all if the ones record can be used why not the others?

    •  I read somewhere that the Ferguson PD (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      a2nite, Pilotshark

      did not put the disciplinary proceedings in personnel records.  Did I imagine it or did someone else read that?

      "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

      by cowdab on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 01:55:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Imagine Darryl Issa's old records...wow. (8+ / 0-)

    If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when? Rabbi Hillel the Elder, Ethics of the Fathers. Corporadeus

    by Floyd Blue on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 10:26:00 AM PDT

  •  Is this any worse than -- or, even as bad as -- (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jilly W

    digging into Joe Wurzelbacher's tax records -- illegal, ahem -- during the 2008 election?

    It's one thing to insist.
    It's another to get.

    Brown's juvenile record at some point might prove relevant, but that point sure ain't now.

    At most, it could explain why he would act in some way that -- surprise!! -- hasn't even been alleged by any official source so far.

    The man is dead. Leave the kid alone.

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 10:27:42 AM PDT

    •  Oh god... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      a2nite, cowdab

      here we go... the white mansplaining has begun! Ladies and Gentlemen: Dinotrac! Never met a blatant display of racism that he didn't try present an opposing viewpoint for...

      Republicans are counting on the fact that fear makes people do stupid things. Like voting Republican.. ~ Ian Reifowitz

      by mikejay611 on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 10:41:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Reading comprehension not a strength, is it. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cjtjc, Be Skeptical

        Did you miss the bottom line?

        The man is dead. Leave the kid alone.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 10:46:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sorry... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cowdab

          got lost in your usual bullshit:

          Brown's juvenile record at some point might prove relevant
          Yeah? Like when? Don't deny your history Dino... Embrace it...

          Republicans are counting on the fact that fear makes people do stupid things. Like voting Republican.. ~ Ian Reifowitz

          by mikejay611 on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 10:52:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  When? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Be Skeptical

            The only circumstance under which I can imagine it being relevant -- and there are people on this site who know the legalities of this stuff far better than I do -- would be to bolster Wilson's narrative if he claims that Brown charged at him.

            The immediate question would be, "Why?", and there might be something in there.

            And that's not the same thing as making the kid's record public, plus --

            I'm not sure they could actually use anything from his record in court.

            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

            by dinotrac on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 11:09:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Exactly. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              a2nite

              Then why bring it up? Can't help yourself, can you?

              Republicans are counting on the fact that fear makes people do stupid things. Like voting Republican.. ~ Ian Reifowitz

              by mikejay611 on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 11:13:26 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Why bring it up? Ummm...I don't know. Sounds (0+ / 0-)

                no less reasonable than all of the church lady hand-wringing in this thread.

                Oh! Those immoral sots!
                Oh! How dare anybody suggest anything the man ever did might have value in the investigation or in trial preparation!

                I have not suggested that the record be opened to the public.
                I have even agreed with "Oh! Those immoral sots!"

                Thought the same thing when they hounded Mr. Joe the Plumber, that's all.

                LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                by dinotrac on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 11:21:06 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You mean the still alive dead beat dad; he (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  dinotrac, Dretutz, mikejay611, poco

                  can defend himself.

                  Michael Brown can't because of a white supremacist murderer.

                  i don't know if he's a white supremacist, but I like to make shite up because I can.

                  I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

                  by a2nite on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 11:40:38 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  why bring it up? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mikejay611

                because it's dino, and he's a troll, that's what he does.  Leave it to him to try to generate some false-equivalency b/w Joe the fake plummer and Michael Brown.
                He's really on a troll-roll today.

                you can shit on my face but that doesn't mean I have to lick my lips

                by red rabbit on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 12:49:13 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Relevance at trial is not the issue here (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Pi Li, BvueDem, VClib, OrganicChemist

              The press is not relegated to finding out only about those things that are relevant at trial.  

              In this case, after the young man was killed, people across the country were curious -- who were these people, the young man killed and the officer who shot him?  The press did some inquiry on the police officer and the offices he worked in, and reported that.  The press also did some inquiry about Michael Brown, getting favorable depictions of him from his family and friends.  Remember the discussion of him as a "gentle giant" that would never start trouble?  What's going on here is the press is inquiring as to whether that is how everyone saw him, or whether there's more to him than was depicted in those articles that came out immediately after the shooting.  It's a continuation of the "who are these two people" question that the public is curious about, and so the press will report on it.

              That's a completely different question than the issue of whether it's relevant at trial.  Certainly, I suspect that Wilson's lawyers will -- if they have not already -- get information about any potential juvenile crime record.  They can get the information before a judge rules on whether some or all of it will be admissible at trial.  For example, if -- hypothetically speaking - there's any record of him hitting, punching, or "charging" a police officer when stopped, that might come in.  Other possible criminal acts that are not related to what Wilson may allege he did here would be harder to get before a jury, I think.  However, if the prosecution tries to introduce evidence from Michael Brown's friends and family along the lines of those "gentle giant" articles, for the purpose of demonstrating that Michael Brown would not have instigated any physical confrontation with Wilson, then I suspect Wilson will get to put in any evidence he has to counter that.  

              •  It gives the majority permission to discount (4+ / 0-)

                Michael Brown as less than human which is our function in the American majority whites only culture.

                I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

                by a2nite on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 11:26:57 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You can't stifle the press inquiry because you (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Pi Li, BvueDem, VClib, OrganicChemist

                  don't like where they are looking.  That's what a free press is all about.  They can look, they can ask, which is what they are doing.

                  If people think that Michael Brown is being "discounted as less than human" in your words, their obligation is to speak up and counter that. The right response to speech we don't like is speech of our own -- speak up and be heard.   The absolute wrong thing is to stifle the press from discovering facts because those facts may, or may not, be inconvenient for your narrative.

                  Again, that's a completely different question from whether any juvenile record, if there is one, would be relevant and admissible at trial.  

                  •  The press isn't free; it's owned by RW 1%ers nt (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    mikejay611, poco

                    I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

                    by a2nite on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 11:45:34 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  That does not fly. (6+ / 0-)

                      Dkos is part of the press, as well as MSNBC.  There are press outlets for virtually every political or philosophical persuasion.

                      If you want to read things of any specific political viewpoint, there are certainly ways to find that.  The internet has made that far, far, far easier than it was a generation ago.  

                      If you don't like what other people are saying about something, nothing prevents you from starting your own outlet for your own point of view.  The internet has made that far easier than a generation ago as well.  

                      The fact that you do not LIKE what a lot of media outlets are saying is not any justification whatsoever for abrogating the First Amendment.  If you don't like what a lot of outlets are saying, then either (1) find and promote an outlet you do like, or (2) start your own (much like Markos did in 2002).  

                    •  And they can lie because the evil Supremes (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      poco

                      say so.

                      I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

                      by a2nite on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 01:18:24 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Sigh. That's a myth. Here's the case (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Carl C, VClib, Pi Li

                        that the myth comes from -- it's New World Communications v. Akre.

                        First, you will notice that it's NOT the "Supremes" as you said.  

                        Second, your statement of the holding -- that a news outlet "can lie"--  is not the holding of the case.  What happened is that Akre was proceeding against a Fox affiliate under the whistle blower statute.  The whistle blower statute " prohibits retaliation against employees who have “[d]isclosed, or threatened to disclose,” employer conduct that “is in violation of” a law, rule, or regulation. § 448.102(1)(3)."  A "law, rule or regulation" is a very specific thing -- a law is passed by Congress, a rule or regulation is promulgated by an administrative agency under administrative procedures.  

                        The Court held that while the FCC had a policy against news distortion that had been used in a number of adjudications, that policy had never been formally adopted as a rule or regulation.  Because there was no "rule" that had been formally adopted by the FCC, Akre could not use the whistle blower statute.  

                        No Court has ever said that it's "ok" for FNC or any other news outlet to lie.  The decision makes clear that the FCC has a policy against that, as demonstrated by the case ofIn re CBS Program “Hunger in America”, 20 F.C.C.2d 143, 150-51 (1969).   The only holding was the the policy had never been adopted as a rule or regulation by using the required administrative procedures.  

                        •  Thanks for whitesplaining the evil MSM & law (6+ / 0-)

                          I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

                          by a2nite on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 03:21:28 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Accusation of "whiteplaining" means accuser has (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coffeetalk, Pi Li

                            nothing to say.  It's soooooooooo easy.

                            Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn.

                          •  Back at you (4+ / 0-)

                            I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

                            by a2nite on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 03:59:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That was the most intelligent comment from you (0+ / 0-)

                            I've ever read.  Whatever you're doing to supercharge that brain of yours, keep it up!

                          •  CT can go to FReepville if she isn't ok here, (6+ / 0-)

                            She seems to think the law is equally applied when the law works for (evil) rich white men only(mostly). That does not include Michael Brown.

                            MB was not human according to the evil white supremacist lynching  FPD. They got their message of evil white supremacy & protect evil murderer Wilson across. We know white people can kill us & get away with murder. That's what America is about, bloodshed.

                            Prove the police don't work for evil white rich white people only.

                            I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

                            by a2nite on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 04:22:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I wonder (4+ / 0-)

                            Do you ever get tired of being a jackass to people of color?

                            Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

                            by moviemeister76 on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 07:06:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Sorry, I can't abide bigots of any color (0+ / 0-)

                            this user has a long, sordid history of shameless bigotry. If calling that out is being a "jackass" then so be it.

                          •  I've been here for years (6+ / 0-)

                            I know exactly how you roll. And anyone who writes what you wrote about whitesplaining doesn't give a shit about bigotry, just deflection.

                            Most of the people at this site are white, and a2nite is perfectly nice with most of them, including me. However, she rubs some white people the wrong way because she's blunt about calling out racism and white privilege in folks around here. She's no different than white women who react the exact same way when men exhibit misogyny, but she takes a hell of a lot more crap for it.

                            Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

                            by moviemeister76 on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 07:16:58 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm surprised you tolerate it. Really. (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Pi Li, OrganicChemist, coffeetalk, Brecht

                            A number of people here who seem perfectly rational about most things (most of which I agree with) and who are fierce opponents of racism and ethnic bigotry (which I completely agree with) are willing to set aside those values when it comes to this user.

                            Lately she has taken to using the term "the white sect" to refer to white people.  The white sect?  Wtf?  I really don't think I need to demonstrate to you how seriously fucked up that is.

                            Now here's a typical nugget of her's from 2 days ago:

                            I don't care how many white people I offend. This evil country was created for you not me. Now it's your turn to get fucked over because there's only so much evil & exterminating & oppressing  that you can do to us.

                            Wahhhhhh, the white middle class is dying, fix it yourselves. We'll wait for the rotten moldy crumbs.

                            Would you really call that being "blunt about calling out racism" or is it just an disgusting rant that is more akin to some teacrazy shrieking about welfare takers?

                            A few among many other recent gems.

                            White people are good at exterminating

                            Y'all people did the exterminating

                            White people did that; every place you touch turn to crap.

                            Note the lack of the qualifier word "some" or "many" or even "most."

                            These are the kind of gross smears that are universally denounced here, but for a very few unfortunate exceptions.  This site is diminished by the wide support this user receives.  Enabling bigotry is not noble or progressive.

                            I would be happy to ignore her. The best solution is for someone like you to call her on it.

                  •  Straw man much? (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Ahianne, mikejay611, poco

                    Who was suggesting that the press be forbidden from asking these questions?

                    There's a world of difference between "the press is behaving in its usual disgusting manner" and "the press should be made to shut up."

                    The press ought to be shamed into being a far better press than they have been, on a multitude of fronts. Whether they can be shamed is a whole other question, with no apparent answer. Whether they should be forced to change is yet another question, with the clear answer "no", and I haven't noticed anyone here suggesting any other answer to that question.

                    The burden is heavily on the press to explain how the records they're clamoring for have any relevance to the story of this shooting other than validating the racist right wing's demonization of the victim. If they can't meet that burden, then they're  morally in the wrong. Legally there isn't, and shouldn't be, any way to be "in the wrong" reporting the news, short of outright willful libel of private citizens. That doesn't mean we should hesitate to point out the moral wrongs.

                    Meanwhile there is a legal obligation to keep juvenile records under seal against all but the most exigent need. It does not "stifle" the press to urge authorities to maintain that legal obligation at a high standard.

                    The real USA Patriot Act was written in 1789. It's called the Bill of Rights.

                    by nicteis on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 12:17:38 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The press relevance is pretty clear. (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Pi Li, BvueDem, doc2, VClib

                      The public wanted to know who these people are -- both Brown and Wilson.  

                      That's why the press interviewed Brown's friends and family.  Whether Brown has a juvenile record is no more, and no less, relevant than the good things Brown's family said about him.  It's relevant to answer the question, who was this person? To answer that question, the press should ferret out both good and bad.  If it doesn't want to look at the bad with the good, they should not delve into the question of "who was Michael Brown" at all.  But, of course, it's too late -- they started doing that right after he was killed, when they went to friends and family and published that information.  Once they published a flattering view of Michael Brown, as they did, I don't think it's "disgusting" if they get information that there might be another side to him, that they investigate that as well.  If they make up stuff, or if they publish stuff without assuring themselves that the source is credible, even if the source remains anonymous (such as Watergate's "Deep Throat"), that's "disgusting."    

                      I think the legal obligation to keep juvenile records sealed ends if the juvenile dies, but I'm not sure about that.  That's what the Court would need to determine, I think.  

                      •  oh, so if someone says something nice about Brown (4+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        a2nite, nicteis, mikejay611, poco

                        then everyone is obligated to dig up any and all dirt they can about Brown, including juvenile records?  Bull. Shit.
                        And spare me your usual dishonest, intellectually lazy strawman arguments.  I'm not saying the press doesn't have a right to dig anywhere they can, the question is whether they should.
                        Your claim that there was some innocuous need for totally non-racist members of the public to scrounge up anything they can to counter some--heaven forbid--positive information about an unarmed black teenager who was gunned down in the street is nothing but more excuse making from a rightwing racist authoritarian.  

                        you can shit on my face but that doesn't mean I have to lick my lips

                        by red rabbit on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 01:08:14 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  And right on que: (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    poco

                    Coffeetalk defending the law (as if it was applied to all Americans equally) one dead unarmed black man at a time. Don't look at the dead black folk. Nothing to see there. Let's focus on this juicy rabbit hole that is the American legal system. Just how deep does it go?

                    Republicans are counting on the fact that fear makes people do stupid things. Like voting Republican.. ~ Ian Reifowitz

                    by mikejay611 on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 08:11:09 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Why would Officer Wilson need a lawyer? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                a2nite, poco

                Has he been accused of anything?

                Oh yeah, he failed to file a required report on the shooting, a violation of state law.

                Why would Officer Wilson's (putative) lawyers need Brown's juvenile record to defend Officer Wilson on a charge of failing to file required paperwork?

                Orwell was an optimist.
                My Home Page

                by RepackRider on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 11:49:09 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Of COURSE he's got lawyers. Only a fool would (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Pi Li, Be Skeptical, denise b, VClib

                  not have lawyers at this point.

                  A grand jury is already looking into whether to indict him.  Any sane person engages a lawyer when that happens.  Any sane person engages a lawyer as soon as a governmental entity starts an investigation into whether they committed a crime.  

              •  oh good (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mikejay611, poco

                I was hoping that our resident rightwing "legal expert" would chime in to defend this gravedigging along with more "expert" opinion on the role of journalism.  You don't give two shits about learning more about Brown.  You're hoping, along with the other racist copsplainers, that some more dirt will be found to smear a dead black teenager before any possible trial of his killer--not that I would expect any more from someone who defended the vigilante killing of another unarmed black teenager.

                "Remember the discussion of him as a "gentle giant" that would never start trouble?"
                Yeah, was that in the NYT article with the headline describing him as "no angel"?  

                you can shit on my face but that doesn't mean I have to lick my lips

                by red rabbit on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 12:57:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  From an SFgate article: (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dretutz, poco
      For one, Wurzelbacher's expressed concern about paying more taxes looked a bit tarnished with the revelation that he owes Ohio about $1,200 in personal income taxes, according to the Lucas County Court of Common Pleas records. And there's a 2007 civil filing that shows a record for a $1,200 owed to a creditor, St. Charles Mercy Hospital.

      So Wurzelbacher has an active lien on his property filed in January 2007, records from the Ohio Department of Taxation show.

      http://www.sfgate.com/...

      Those are public records available to anyone.  Do you have any cites for legally confidential records?

      We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. B. Franklin

      by Observerinvancouver on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 10:55:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  At what point would Brown's record.. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      poco

      prove relevant, when discussing his murder?  Or ever for that matter?

  •  It's the "he brought it on himself defense" (6+ / 0-)

    because many white people  "know" that all black men are criminals and violent. Same today as 400 years ago. So it just makes it easier to turn MB into a violent criminal.

    Being black is a capital offense especially if you talk back to an armed white man.

    I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

    by a2nite on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 10:28:32 AM PDT

  •  I want the white kid that killed those (5+ / 0-)

    four (4) white people to have his case reopened and all of his court records be released as well then.  We then can compare to see how Michael went wrong and the white kid went right or something like that.  

  •  Brown had no juvenile felony charges or (6+ / 0-)

    convictions.

    CLAYTON • Michael Brown was never convicted of any and did not face any A or B felony charges in juvenile court, a court official said this morning at a hearing on whether his juvenile records should be released.

    The judge took the issue under advisement.

    It's disgusting and frustrating the St. Louis Post Dispatch decided to make this an issue.

    Mr. Johnson and other Post Dispatch "journalists" need to be demanding why there is still no completed FPD police report or verbal statement from officer Wilson detailing just why he deemed it necessary to use lethal force against Mike Brown.

    http://www.stltoday.com/...

    "We are beyond law, which is not unusual for an empire; unfortunately, we are also beyond common sense." Gore Vidal

    by Superpole on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 10:37:34 AM PDT

    •  Au contraire (0+ / 0-)

      They did a service by coming up with this information.

      I understand the outrage at the idea of making Brown's killing less terrible, but in this case the St Louis P-D is just doing its job.

      Our job is to convince people his past record, or lack of one, is irrelevant to this case.

      The knee-jerk denunciation of the St L P-D here is another example of how right wing anti-progressive, anti-democratic, anti-freedom of the press attitudes are now being accepted by progressives. And another example of how they have won by getting us to be like them.

      •  And... Why is the Post Dispatch (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        inhibitedagitator

        not demanding to know why there's no complete police report? why is there no statement from Wilson?

        it's their job to not do that? just focus the alleged faults of the victim?

        FAIL.

        "We are beyond law, which is not unusual for an empire; unfortunately, we are also beyond common sense." Gore Vidal

        by Superpole on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 02:22:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I remember vividly ten years ago... (9+ / 0-)

    when my son received his MBA.
    He also received a very good job offer, which he took...
    A job/career that he still has to this day.
    I remember thinking...
    "We've done it, he's safe, we are some of the lucky ones".
    All of the events of late have absolutely shattered those feelings....
    I no longer feel safe as a law-abiding, middle-aged Black man, and worse yet, I fear for my son's safety as well all over again. It's like deja vu.
    My heart just breaks...
    For me and my family, the citizens of Ferguson, the nation as a whole, but most especially for Michael's parents.
    With him having only been 18, living where they live, they  almost certainly had not yet reached the point I had where they could breath a sigh of the false sense of relief thinking that he/they had made it.
    And now to also be faced with a small group of racists who would attempt to drag their son's name trough the mud, attempt to portray him as some kind of "thug" who "had it coming", "a good kill".
    The behaviors, the mentality that has been displayed is nothing short of repugnant...
    And the sad reality is that Ferguson is a microcosm of the rest of [urban] America.

    "These 'Yet To Be' United States" --James Baldwin-- -6.75, -5.78

    by kevinbr38 on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 10:43:52 AM PDT

  •  I bet there are some truency charge ie he was t... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Observerinvancouver

    I bet there are some truency charge ie he was tardy too many times, or "vandalism" ie. he put a bumper sticker on his school locker.

  •  A contrarian thought (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    coffeetalk, denise b

    Presumably, since officer Wilson allegedly stated Brown punched him, etc., if Brown had a history of assault that would be relevant, lending credence to his story. And if Brown has no such record (as appears to be the case) then that would also be relevant, tending to discredit Wilson's allegations. Presumably also if Wilson has/does not have a record of disciplinary problems, that would be relevant.

    To me, it just looks like the Post-Dispatch is engaging in journalism, looking for info that may have a bearing on the event.

    •  They can lie about him no matter what; this (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      moviemeister76

      is about getting the killer off because white (leo)is always right.

      I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

      by a2nite on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 11:14:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Officer Wilson (0+ / 0-)

      ...has not "alleged" anything.  There are no statements from the police as to what took place.  

      Even though such records are required by state law.

      There have been a number of lies defending Wilson, but they have been exposed as lies, created by people who were not present.  All the witnesses who gave names and signed statements said Brown was attempting to surrender.

      When one side lies or doesn't say anything, and the other side has several witnesses who agree that Brown was shot while surrendering, which side should a logical person believe?

      Orwell was an optimist.
      My Home Page

      by RepackRider on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 11:17:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, there's almost certainly a statement from (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pi Li, denise b

        officer Wilson taken after the incident, even if it was a compelled statement that can't be used at trial under Garrity v. New Jersey.  

        The fact that no statement taken from Officer Wilson has been released does not mean that no statement has been taken.  

        In other words, Officer Wilson certainly has a version of what happened.  That version simply hasn't been released to the public yet.  Just like there are almost certainly witnesses who are talking to investigators but have not talked to the press.

        We can't assume that what the press has reported is the whole story.   It might be, it might not be -- we won't know until the results of the investigations are released.  

      •  Police story (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        coffeetalk

        I believe the police chief did say that Wilson suffered an injury to his face near the eye and was taken to the hospital. The rest of what Wilson allegedly claims, true, does come from reports of sources supposedly close to him. We do not know that "all" the witnesses say Brown was surrendering -- only those who have made public statements. Allegedly -- allegedly -- there are others who contradict this. I don't profess to know whether that's true or not.

    •  Would not be relevant (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      buffie

      unless he had known about said history at the time of the stop.

      This is Blame the Black Guy 101.

    •  Contrarian my ass (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      inhibitedagitator

      It's amazing how in the past you wanted everyone to wait before rush to judgment. Now, you are all for speculation as long as it helps to make an unarmed black man guilty. Imagine that.

      Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

      by moviemeister76 on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 07:10:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Astonishing (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kevinbr38, buffie, inhibitedagitator

    It is simply astonishing how this can be. His juvenile records (if any) have NO BEARING on the situation. He was unarmed, surrendering, when shot dead. These are the facts.

  •  I recently slapped down a goober on this issue... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, Ahianne

    ...in my backward little home town back in western Michigan (via the hometown newspaper website).  Soon as he encountered the propaganda with which the Ferguson police smeared the late Michael Brown, the goober went ballistic.  Went off on a rant about how Brown had been "guilty" of theft, resisting arrest, and "making threatening gestures toward police', etc.; and how "when you break the law, you give up your rights - I don't care what color you are" (yeah, right), and how Michael Brown "got what was coming to him", etc.

    I had to remind this idiot of the fact that 1) the last time I checked, "making threatening gestures toward police" is not a capital offense, 2) strictly speaking we don't know what, if any, crimes Michael Brown may have committed - because such things are to be determined in a court of law, and Michael Brown was never even arrested, much less charged with any crime, prior to being gunned down by the police officer, 3) any such crimes - if they did occur - are irrelevant to the killing of this person, and that 4) guess what?  Criminals, and even merely accused criminals do in fact have rights; and that those rights - of habeus corpus and of due process - are guaranteed by the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, as is the prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment (such as summary execution in the street) by the Eighth Amendment.

    Predictably enough, the doofus began carping about how I was allegedly "weak", "a wussy", and "soft on criminals".  I reminded him that such attempts at character assassination are one of the favorite attack tactics used by Fascist bullies throughout history, so as to to discredit their adversaries, and thereby undermine the civilized society of the nation(s) they wish to take over - by appealing to the fear, the rage, the bigotry, and the xenophobia of the unwashed rabble; to destabilize the established order, so that it can more easily be overthrown.  And that in that context, I consider myself to be in very good company indeed.

    Honestly, it was like trying to debate a six year-old child.

    The great irony here (well, one of them) is that many of these people are among the first to accuse "those dirty libruls" of trying to take away their rights by subverting the Constitution - though they apparently haven't the foggiest notion of what the Constitution actually contains.  And now, they are some of the loudest, crankiest voices out there, demanding that the Constitution be subverted for their own narrow, partisan ideological reasons - never dreaming that, once so weakened, it could in different circumstances put some of their very own rights in jeopardy as well.

    Stupidity + Fear + Rage + Power = One Very Scary Combination.  Tea Party "logic" at its finest.

    MM

    All that is necessary for the triumph of the Right is that progressives do nothing.

    by Mystic Michael on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 11:53:08 AM PDT

  •  E-mail Chuckles here! (0+ / 0-)

    mailto:chuckwalla1022@gmail.com

  •  What a pretty-boy Chuckle's is! (0+ / 0-)

    Here's Chuckle's site, along with a photo of him!

    http://dailycaller.com/...

  •  I thought juvey records (if any) were supposed ... (0+ / 0-)

    I thought juvey records (if any) were supposed to be sealed? Listen to this debate, would you? Conservatives are doing their dead level racist best to demonize A DEAD CHILD. Jesus H. Christ!

  •  I think he had some cavities on his teeth becau... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, inhibitedagitator

    I think he had some cavities on his teeth because he broke the law of brushing after every meal. He also went swimming right after eating, ran with some scissors, and didn't always turn off the lights when he left a room. No wonder Wilson was so worried for his safety!

  •  "amoral" seems kind (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    inhibitedagitator

    I'm inclined to think trolling for information with the intention of further defaming the reputation of a dead teen, with complete disregard for his grieving family, is, arguably, "immoral". "Evil" not really that much of a stretch.

    Unless we're talking about the lack of empathy on display and the complete disregard for anything except clicks and attention. (then maybe we need another word: sociopathy.)

  •  One of the two persons ... (4+ / 0-)

    to the events in Ferguson that day comes from a seriously broken home and a severely disrupted early life. This person's mother engaged in serial marriage and brought home a succession of "step-fathers". This person's mother was a convicted felon, and as we all know, poisoned apples don't drop far from the tree of evil.

    This person was Officer Darren Wilson.

    Now, I'm not going to suggest that Wilson's juvenile records be released. I presume that whatever youthful indiscretions he engaged in and any after-effects of the criminality of his felonious mother were all put behind him when he became an adult.

    We must keep in mind who the victim is in this case. It was Michael Brown that was murdered. Not Officer Wilson.

    Corporations, which should be the carefully restrained creatures of the law and the servants of the people, are fast becoming the people’s masters. -- President Grover Cleveland, 1888

    by edg on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 01:10:04 PM PDT

  •  brown (0+ / 0-)

    He was a gentle giant

  •  Just announced he had no juvenile (0+ / 0-)

    record.  So are the racists going to STFU now.  Not a chance.

    Light is seen through a small hole.

    by houyhnhnm on Wed Sep 03, 2014 at 04:12:04 PM PDT

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