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View Diary: Daniel Ellsberg Will March For Bradley Manning, Defying the Exec. Board of SF's Gay Pride Parade. (82 comments)

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  •  These fights are incredibly important (2+ / 0-)
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    aliasalias, jpmassar

    I keep talking about this and it frustrates the hell out of me. What we're seeing here is the beginning of the split between the neoliberals who supported marriage equality, the LGBT folks who support a homonormative agenda, and the more radical non-assimilationist section of the community. The first and the second are generally aligned on this issue, which is why Manning got kicked t the curb so hard here.

    Protesting SF gay pride over choosing to not honor Bradley is, in my opinion, real circular firing squad.
    I really can't stand the language around this stuff. It is nothing like a circular firing squad. It's internal divisions with the community and if the concerns of some are going to be summarily dismissed and suppressed then we need to make those concerns heard.

    If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

    by AoT on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 10:33:44 AM PDT

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    •  I just disagree it's a well-directed action (1+ / 0-)
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      jpmassar

      I am all for actiion, I think that should go without saying.

      But it should be smart.

      And my military friends, who I fought side by side for DADT repeal just 24 months ago, consider this a real stick in their eye. I mean they are genuinely insulted, angry, feel disrespected by that initial decision.

      These are people who not only served our country but now are doing an absolutely Hell of a job fighting DOMA on every gay person's behalf.

      And to what end are protesters telling Sue Fulton, who's West Point wedding we all just celebrated, she can just fuck off?

      "The marriage fight is over when we say it's over, and it's over when we win."
      —Dan Savage

      by Scott Wooledge on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 01:07:52 PM PDT

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      •  So the military gets first say now? (2+ / 0-)
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        jpmassar, Don midwest

        I mean, I see where you're coming from, and where they're coming from, but this idea that they suddenly get to dictate everything is going to destroy the movement, and the neolibs will continue to push that, have no doubt. It's not like DADT and marriage equality were on the top of everyone's lists of what would most help people in the community. Y'all are in for a rude awakening once ENDA passes. Then the assimilationist agenda will be done and they'll bail and tell the rest of us to kick rocks. Notice how nothing except the assimilationist agenda has been moved forward? You think that's a coincidence?

        If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

        by AoT on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 01:27:27 PM PDT

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        •  Somethings are dealbreakers for folks (1+ / 0-)
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          jpmassar

          Sometimes the can suck it up. If my friends West Point's Sue Fulton or the Josh "booed gay solider" Snyder Hill had told me, "Don't go to Pride if he's honored," I would have personally honored their request. And I'd be a little embarrassed if NYC had picked Manning as GM.

          "The marriage fight is over when we say it's over, and it's over when we win."
          —Dan Savage

          by Scott Wooledge on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 02:58:24 PM PDT

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        •  Do they get the last say? (2+ / 0-)
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          AoT, jpmassar

          No, but you ignore the point I'm making that they are allies, working hard, and inviting Manning is kind of the opposite of Hippie punching. It's assimilationist punching.

          Which maybe is ok. Maybe Pride going forward should only be for non-assimilationists. Maybe the community shouldn't try to artificially hold itself together. It's not really a community if there aren't shared community values people agree on?

          "The marriage fight is over when we say it's over, and it's over when we win."
          —Dan Savage

          by Scott Wooledge on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 03:04:12 PM PDT

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          •  The big problem I have is that the people you are (2+ / 0-)
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            jpmassar, Don midwest

            talking about aren't a part of the community making this decision and yet they have more sway than locals. That a bunch of conservative gay activists in San Diego can call up SF Pride and force them to drop Manning is outrageous. This is San Francisco, we don't support the military and we aren't about to start just because some more people can be honest about their sexuality.

            Of course, the sad part of all of this to me is that the fact that Manning identifies as trans has now been successfully and completely ignored.

            If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

            by AoT on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 03:13:38 PM PDT

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            •  Sean Sala's in San Diego (0+ / 0-)

              and presumably SF has a number of LGBT servicemembers and vets. That's the nature of organizing. So I don't necessarily agree they're all national.

              Nor do I agree you have to be a "conservative" to think that Bradley is an inappropriate choice for Grand Marshall.

              "The marriage fight is over when we say it's over, and it's over when we win."
              —Dan Savage

              by Scott Wooledge on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 04:59:33 PM PDT

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              •  But that's so far from SF (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jpmassar

                especially culturally. And the reason a lot of these folks are well known is because of the national organization. And there are a number of LGTB servicemembers who are supportive of having Manning be the GM. That's what really gets me about this, that SF Pride would be so idiotic as to not only say Manning wasn't going to be a GM, after they said Manning would be after they said Manning wouldn't after they said Manning would be, but that they would completely vilify Manning in the process. That's why this stinks of out of towners and corporate sponsors. Simply not choosing Manning or vetting the choices would have been different, although I'd still be a bit disappointed if I found out Manning was in the running and got nixed by military folks.

                Nor do I agree you have to be a "conservative" to think that Bradley is an inappropriate choice for Grand Marshall.
                I didn't mean to imply that but I can see where you got it from. San Diego is a far, far more conservative town than SF, as I'm sure you know.

                If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                by AoT on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 05:20:46 PM PDT

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            •  And "not supporting the military" (0+ / 0-)

              at least for me is not the same as not supporting my friends in the military. I can have respect for my friend's life and career choices, even as I oppose the war machine.

              In fact, you'd find a lot of them disagree with the aims of the MIC.

              "The marriage fight is over when we say it's over, and it's over when we win."
              —Dan Savage

              by Scott Wooledge on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 05:01:50 PM PDT

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              •  I suppose (1+ / 0-)
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                jpmassar

                Though I'm rather skeptical that one can oppose the war machine and be a part of it. Especially when you vociferously oppose Manning as well.

                The only other thing I'd add to the conversation here is that I think I'm most disappointed by virtually everyone's failure to talk about the fact that Manning from everything we know identifies as Trans. The constant use of the male pronoun, which I am totally guilty of, is the biggest part of it all.

                If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                by AoT on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 05:25:08 PM PDT

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                •  See. You keep misrepresenting my position (2+ / 0-)
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                  jpmassar, AoT

                  I don't vociferously oppose manning. I said he was an inappropriate choice as a Grand Marshall.

                  For that matter, so am I. I don't vociferously oppose myself.

                  As far at the trans thing, well, I've never heard Manning self-identify a gender. I've heard rumors of it, yes.

                  "The marriage fight is over when we say it's over, and it's over when we win."
                  —Dan Savage

                  by Scott Wooledge on Tue Apr 30, 2013 at 08:45:06 PM PDT

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                  •  I didn't mean you opposed him (0+ / 0-)

                    I meant that as a reference to the people who did oppose him. Sorry for the confusion.

                    If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                    by AoT on Wed May 01, 2013 at 02:24:56 PM PDT

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                •  This is my problem with the conversation (0+ / 0-)

                  it's turned into: "You must agree with me that Manning must be Grand Marshall, or your are a unthinking tool of the MIC and a fan of war crimes."

                  Which reminds me a lot of "You must invade Iraq, or you want the terrorists to win."

                  Both false binary choices when there are other positions.

                  "The marriage fight is over when we say it's over, and it's over when we win."
                  —Dan Savage

                  by Scott Wooledge on Wed May 01, 2013 at 06:11:10 AM PDT

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