The Leadership Principle Today
BRET BAIER of Fox News: Mr. Trump, just yesterday, almost 100 foreign policy experts signed on to an open letter refusing to support you, saying your embracing expansive use of torture is inexcusable. General Michael Hayden, former CIA director, NSA director, and other experts have said that when you asked the U.S. military to carry out some of your campaign promises, specifically targeting terrorists' families, and also the use of interrogation methods more extreme than waterboarding, the military will refuse because they've been trained to turn down and refuse illegal orders.
So what would you do, as commander-in-chief, if the U.S. military refused to carry out those orders?
DONALD TRUMP: They won't refuse. They're not going to refuse me. Believe me.
BAIER: But they're illegal. [Baier is referring to “those orders.”]
TRUMP: Let me just tell you, you look at the Middle East. They're chopping off heads. They're chopping off the heads of Christians and anybody else that happens to be in the way. They're drowning people in steel cages. And he -- now we're talking about waterboarding. . . . They then came to me, what do you think of waterboarding? I said it's fine. And if we want to go stronger, I'd go stronger, too, because, frankly...
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... that's the way I feel. Can you imagine -- can you imagine these people, these animals over in the Middle East, that chop off heads, sitting around talking and seeing that we're having a hard problem with waterboarding? We should go for waterboarding and we should go tougher than waterboarding. That's my opinion.
BAIER: But targeting terrorists' families?
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TRUMP: And -- and -- and -- I'm a leader. I'm a leader. I've always been a leader. I've never had any problem leading people. If I say do it, they're going to do it. That's what leadership is all about.
It’s been pointed out many times that Donald Trump thinks that, as President, he will simply speak and things will simply happen. He will tell the government of the people of Mexico to pay for a wall across our border and it will simply happen. He will declare the Affordable Care Act to be null and void and it will simply go away. He will declare the nuclear agreement with Iran to be subject to re-negotiation and it will simply happen. (And the governments of England, France, Germany, Russia and China, who are parties to the agreement with Iran? We will see what Angela Merkel, David Cameron, Vladimir Putin, Francois Hollande, and Xi Jinping have to say about simply following Donald Trump’s leadership.)
But on Thursday night, Mr. Trump applies the Leadership Principle directly to the question whether a member of the US military can disobey an unlawful order—specifically the order to torture. “If I say do it, they’re going to do it. That’s what leadership is all about.”
As former CIA Director Hayden, former Commandant of the Marine Corps Gen. Charles Krulak, the 100 foreign policy experts mentioned above—and others—have pointed out, torture is unlawful. It is against U.S law, against the Uniform Code of Military Justice, against the Geneva Conventions, and against the UN Convention against Torture. All of these are laws and treaties that apply to the United States. Members of the armed forces are subject to these laws. The Constitution says so:
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land . . .
It is to this rule of law—the Constitution, and the laws made pursuant to the Constitution, and the treaties made under the authority of it—that members of the military (and, indeed, all members of the government) are subject.
Unless you replace the Constitutional principle with the Leadership Principle.
Mr. Trump, what if a member of the armed forces refuses to obey an unlawful order?
They won't refuse. They're not going to refuse me. Believe me.
Even torture, targeting the families of [suspected/alleged/accused] terrorists?
I'm a leader. I'm a leader. I've always been a leader. I've never had any problem leading people. If I say do it, they're going to do it. That's what leadership is all about.
This is the Leadership Principle, explicit and plain. There is no question of lawful or unlawful. If the Leader speaks, it will be done. It’s not as if we haven’t seen this before in our history.
Richard Nixon:
“When the President does it, that means that it is not illegal.”
John Yoo, Office of Legal Council for GWBush, asked about torturing family members:
Cassel: If the president deems that he's got to torture somebody, including by crushing the testicles of the person's child, there is no law that can stop him?
Yoo: No treaty...
Cassel: Also no law by Congress -- that is what you wrote in the August 2002 memo...
Yoo: I think it depends on why the President thinks he needs to do that.
No, it doesn’t “depend.” We have laws; we need laws; we need our government to be under laws. Our only way to correct, direct, and re-direct the government and its leaders, is if they are under the same laws we are under. We are not in a game of “follow the Leader.”
As 22 retired generals and admirals of the U.S. Armed Forces said:
[T]orture is actually worse than unnecessary; it is counterproductive and undermines our national security. It increases the risks to our troops, hinders cooperation with allies, alienates populations whose support the United States needs in the struggle against terrorism, and provides a propaganda tool for extremists who wish to do us harm.
Most importantly, torture violates our core values as a nation. Our greatest strength is our commitment to the rule of law and to the principles embedded in our Constitution. Our servicemen and women need to know that our leaders do not condone torture of any kind. George Washington admonished his soldiers that anyone engaging in torture “bring[s] shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.” Ronald Reagan pressed the Senate to ratify the Convention Against Torture, stating that the United States must clearly express her will to “bring an end to the abhorrent practice of torture.” We urge you [all the presidential candidates] to stand with these leaders and make clear that you oppose the use of torture and cruel treatment of prisoners.
This used to be our national consensus. It was part of what we meant by being under the “rule of law.” It is part of what we mean when we say that other [lawless] nations need to be under the “rule of law.”
I have quoted the exchange between Donald Trump and Bret Baier, which clearly shows Mr. Trump’s idea of Leadership and his version of what Dietrich Bonhoeffer called the Leadership Principle. There is one more word to highlight. I will let the transcript speak for itself.
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