David Beard:
Hello and welcome! I'm David Beard, contributing editor for Daily Kos Elections.
David Nir:
And I'm David Nir, political director of Daily Kos. The Downballot is a weekly podcast dedicated to the many elections that take place below the presidency, from Senate to city council.
David Beard:
You can subscribe to The Downballot on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. And new episodes come out every Thursday morning.
David Nir:
We have a very special episode today with a very special guest. We are so excited to introduce someone who has not only been part of some of our favorite shows but has also been a committed activist throughout the years: Julia Louis-Dreyfus!
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
Hi, guys. Hi, David. Hi, David. I'm going to refer to you guys as Davids, I think that's more fun than Nir and Beard, although that's also good. But anyway, I'm delighted to be here. Hi.
David Beard:
Whatever you prefer, we will happily accept.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
Okay, good.
David Beard:
So like us here at The Downballot, you've been focused on downballot races as well this year, right?
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
Yes, I have been. I've been doing a lot of work for downballot [races] and I have been following what's going on in Washington and around our country fairly avidly. And disturbed by a great bit of it.
So it became clear particularly now that state and local officials affect our lives as much as our senators and congresspeople, et cetera, so I thought that would be a good way to engage and bring awareness to candidates who don't really get awareness.
I mean, honestly, I live in California, and there are so many things to vote for when you're voting at any election, and having an awareness of who you're voting for and why these votes matter is critical. So that's why I really dedicated a lot of energy and time to secretaries of state or state legislature and so on and so forth.
I mean, I'm not an expert in any way, and I certainly don't pretend to be, but I've teamed up with a lot of organizations that have helped me to find the best way to support and make an impact in certain races.
The organizations that I've been partnering with have been the DLCC, the Democratic Legislative Campaign Committee. Sister District, which is phenomenal. I think they're all phenomenal. I don't have favorites. Like your children, they're just all wonderful. The Democratic Association of Secretaries of State, which is called DASS, a very important organization, as is DAGA, which is the Democratic Attorneys General Association. The State's Project, End Citizens United, of course, and the National Democratic Redistricting Committee, the NDRC. Those are the main organizations thus far that I've partnered with.
And a couple of campaigns that I'm super proud of. Recently, we raised about $400,000 for 15 pro-choice state legislative candidates who were in very close races in June. And we also helped to grow the DASS presence, their follower presence on social media. DASS, I will remind listeners is the Democratic Association of Secretaries of State, and we were able to grow their awareness by fivefold. So, that's all great.
And it's nice to focus on this so you don't feel too lost. Of course, that's why I'm here with you guys today because you guys have really led the charge in terms of shining a light on why so many of these races are important, including state supreme court races are so important. And I was hoping in this conversation today, we could bring some more awareness to the candidates who are running in state supreme court races if that's cool with you. And I think, I have a feeling it is.
David Nir:
Yeah, we're pretty down for that. We have talked about state supreme court elections on this show before, but we have been itching to dive deeper. We actually want to turn the tables now and put you, Julia, in the host's chair so that you can ask us questions about these key races. Because you mentioned a lot of these fantastic organizations that are working on these downballot races. What we don't really have unfortunately on the Democratic side is this overarching organization to help with state supreme court races. So that's why we're so excited to have you on to talk about these races. And like you said, shine a spotlight on them. Julia, you are now in the hot seat.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
Okay. Well, that's fine. I've been in the hot seat before, I can handle it. And actually, it's good, I'm happy to be asking you guys questions because you are the experts and I am not. Let's dive deep and get into it.
So can you just explain something super basic, which is why are we voting for judges? Aren't judges appointed? What the hell, what's going on there?
David Nir:
It's totally crazy. You're not wrong. Virtually no other country in the world elects judges at any level. In the United States, we elect tons and tons of judges, including for the top courts in many states, the state supreme courts. And it's a bad system. It's a terrible system. We shouldn't be doing it this way. The rest of the world looks at us and thinks that we're insane for doing it this way.
The flaws are obvious. It's so easy for judges to get controlled by partisan interests because they know exactly who's supporting them, and who's funding them. And this is especially true of conservative judges and justices on the right. And in a just world, they would be appointed like you just said. Except that's not the world we live in. We live in this unfair, screwed-up world where we have to worry about judicial elections.
The sad thing is that Republicans have spent decades focused on these races because these positions are so, so powerful. And the left has really fallen short here. We have not paid as much attention.
And like you said at the start of the program, there's been so much focus on congressional elections, but so much less on these downballot races and people have these long ballots, especially like you said in your home state of California, and it's easy for them to get lost in the noise.
And we're here to change all that. We want to make people aware of these races, aware of the stakes of these races, and why they should get involved in these races. And that's exactly why we're having you on this show.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
You're totally right. The Republicans have for so long been playing the long game here. And that's what the Democrats need to do. Take a page from the Republicans’ playbook and really go for the long game. Which is essentially what we're talking about.
If we were to appoint these judges, as opposed to elect them, wouldn't you bump up against exactly the same issue? Because who's doing the appointing in that case? It's whoever's in office. And so I wonder if to a certain extent this issue is unavoidable?
David Beard:
I think part of it is a cultural issue where the right in the U.S. has become so partisan about judicial stuff, whether it be elections or appointments. There are a lot of countries that have a very unbiased process for appointing their judges. They look at experts, they look at bar associations in various countries and they end up with, not perfect, but pretty good judges that are appointed because they're the most qualified.
Here, even in states where we don't elect judges, you can get Republicans and then folks who are just going to appoint partisan judges still. So just moving them to appointments doesn't single-handedly fix the problem. There's also a broader cultural issue of, we need to somehow convince the GOP to want unbiased judges.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
No, that may be a question for the GOP and their therapists. To which they don't go to those appointments, I'm pretty sure. Okay. So let's talk about why we should be invested. Why should we care about state-level judges? And the reason I ask this is because it seems like so many of these hot, big, massive cases end up at the U.S. Supreme Court anyway. So can we talk about that?
David Nir:
Yeah, so that's absolutely right that the hottest issues do wind up before the U.S. Supreme Court. But SCOTUS only hears maybe 100 to 150 cases a year. There are state supreme courts in all 50 states and together they might hear 5,000 or 10,000 cases a year. So the number of people who can be affected by the state supreme court rulings can actually be far, far greater.
There are actually limits on what the U.S. Supreme Court can do. It doesn't seem that way given we have Alito citing practitioners of witchcraft to roll back the right to an abortion. But in fact, the U.S. Supreme Court can only address matters of federal law or the U.S. Constitution.
A lot of cases are actually decided based on state constitutions and state law. And those kinds of cases will never make it to the United States Supreme Court. And a really good example came just a few years ago in Pennsylvania where the Pennsylvania Supreme Court, which has a majority of Democratic justices, struck down the state's congressional map because it had been badly gerrymandered by the Republicans.
And they did this based on the Pennsylvania State Constitution. The state constitution there said that voters have a right to vote that's protected in the state constitution and that these rigged maps violated that provision of the state constitution. And as a result, Pennsylvania got a much, much fairer map for the first time in a very long time. Democrats picked up a lot of seats. It was crucial to strengthening the Democrats' majority in the house. And also it was just important for having fair elections so that we don't have these totally rigged elections.
So these state supreme courts can have a huge impact on daily life, just because they're ruling on so many cases.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
In terms of these state supreme court justices being as important as they are. Let's talk about, because I know we're focusing in on specific states today, and can we talk about why we're only looking at those states? And those states are North Carolina, Ohio, and Michigan. What about the other states, and why is it the focus today is on them?
David Beard:
These are the three states that we think are by far the most competitive this year. They're the ones where the majority essentially between Democratic justices and Republican justices are up in the air and either side could take control.
In North Carolina and Michigan, Democrats hold a four to three majority on the court. So if the Republicans just flip one seat, they would be able to take control. They would begin to start being able to undo rulings. For example in North Carolina, the really strong anti-gerrymandering rulings that the Supreme Court has made there. A Republican court could start undoing those rulings and making unfair state legislative maps and unfair Republican bias congressional maps legal again.
The situation is actually reversed in Ohio. And there, the Republicans have a four-three majority. So Democrats actually need to win one of those GOP-held seats to be able to take control. And in that case, one of the GOP justices has actually been siding with the Democrats on redistricting rulings preventing gerrymandering. But she is retiring. So if we don't take one of the GOP seats, and she's replaced by a Republican, there's a good chance again those gerrymandering rules will no longer be in effect in Ohio and Republicans will be able to gerrymander that state to their heart's content.
And even if you're not in these states, these supreme courts can actually affect lives really across the country. We've already talked about the gerrymanders that are right now being struck down in Ohio and North Carolina, that could come back. And of course in this horrifying post-Roe world that we live in, preserving abortion access in one state is critical because it might help women in a neighboring state or even two states away where abortion is banned or it's much more heavily restricted. And they need to come to one of these states to get the health care they need.
And then lastly, looking towards 2024, these are some really competitive states. We've seen that in past cycles with North Carolina and Michigan in particular. And we need Supreme Courts that are willing to take on attempts to steal an election if it comes to that. Who are willing to push back and strike down attempts by a governor or a state legislature to invalidate the will of the people.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
Oh my god, it's so critical. So what issues do you guys think are most likely going to be decided by these courts in the next few years?
David Nir:
I think we have to start with abortion. Beard was just mentioning that in Kansas, we saw just recently that an attempt to amend the state constitution to strip the right to an abortion was shot down in an amazing landslide by almost 20 points in a conservative state that Donald Trump won.
But the background here is critical. The reason why Kansas had this vote is that in 2019, the state Supreme Court actually said that the state constitution guarantees the right to an abortion. And one aside that I have to add is that a lot of these state constitutions are better than the federal constitution. They protect more rights. They are just worded better. They protect the right to vote. They protect the right to privacy. And these things aren't explicitly in the U.S. Constitution, but they often are in state constitutions.
And that's what the Kansas Supreme Court used to say that, yes, women have a right to receive an abortion in that state. And Republicans in Kansas have been desperate to ban abortion there or at least curtail it very strongly, but they can't because of the state Supreme Court's finding. And so they said, well, we're going to try to amend the constitution, strip this right from people that the Supreme Court said that you have. And they failed very badly on that front.
What I think that we will see in coming years is that other states, other Republican-run states, that are trying to ban or restrict abortion, these matters will be litigated. They'll be litigated on the basis of the rights guaranteed by the state constitutions. And those cases are going to be adjudicated by the state supreme courts. So we need these state supreme courts to stand strong and to find that these state constitutions, just like in Kansas, also protect the right to an abortion.
I think Beard already mentioned the other issues that are really top of mind, gerrymandering and election integrity, especially for 2024. 2020 was a dry run, it almost succeeded in a lot of ways. And Republicans are learning from their mistakes. We have to learn from their effort too. And buttress every institution we possibly can.
Remember, Michigan, that vote was super close in 2020 and in 2016. The legislature there is run by Republicans. Imagine if they take control of the [state] Supreme Court, that would be a willing partner in stealing the election for them. It's a horrible, horrible thing to contemplate. But these are the top issues that these courts are going to address. And that is why we have to work our asses off to try to keep them in the hands of the good guys.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
Just a side note question. In terms of the success that abortion rights had in Kansas, which was just buoying, to say the least, are there other ... I mean, I know that it may have been a bit of an anomaly the way that shook down. And I listened to your podcast talking to that guy about it recently. But having said that, are there other states that are similarly poised to have abortion rights succeed like Kansas?
David Nir:
So there are two states where abortion will be directly on the ballot in November. At least two states. One is Kentucky, where they are voting on a measure that's very similar to the Kansas measure. In other words, the state constitution does not recognize the right to an abortion. The big difference there is that the State Supreme Court has never previously recognized a right to an abortion.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
I see.
David Nir:
We're starting off in a worse position there. But we still want to defeat it, obviously.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
Yes.
David Nir:
In case the state Supreme Court does rule our way. The other one is Michigan, and Michigan is a really exciting opportunity. That's the exact opposite situation where activists are putting a measure on the ballot to say that the state constitution affirmatively guarantees the right to an abortion. And that would mean that if it succeeds, that even if Republicans take control of the state government in the future, even if they take control of the [state] Supreme Court, this right would still be recognized written into the state constitution.
So we are supporting both of those efforts for the good guys in both cases obviously. And those are two races that people who care about this issue definitely need to be paying attention to in November.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
Let's talk about who these people are that we're asking listeners and readers and so on to give money to.
David Beard:
Yeah, we've got seven candidates on this slate from those three states. We've got three in Ohio, two a piece in Michigan and North Carolina. They're all fantastic public servants committed to upholding the rule of law. And I just want to highlight a little bit about a couple of particularly interesting ones.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
Please.
David Beard:
In Michigan, we've got Justice Richard Bernstein, who's an incumbent on the Supreme Court. He was also the first blind justice on that court. In fact, he's been blind since birth and his website is theblindjustice.com, which is great.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
I'm sorry, but that's incredible. And I love him already. Yeah, go ahead.
David Beard:
And before first being elected in 2014, he was a disability rights advocate. He actually represented the Paralyzed Veterans of America against the University of Michigan to make sure that they would allow safe access for disabled people at Michigan Stadium, which is the largest stadium in the entire country. And of course the Michigan Wolverines, a hugely popular team. And that case actually helped establish guidelines that are used by stadiums across the country to ensure disability access.
And then the other judge I want to highlight in Ohio is Judge Terri Jamison, who also has a great, great story. She started out working as one of the very few women in the underground coal mines. Then she moved on from that to start her own insurance agency. Which she ran for 16 years and only then did she decide to go and get her law degree. After getting her law degree, she then worked as a public defender. And now she's been a judge since 2012. So she's got a decade's worth of experience.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
Oh my god. I mean, somebody needs to make a movie about her. I think I should play her in a movie.
David Beard:
Yeah, she is ...
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
What are you saying? You guys are both looking at me like-
David Beard:
She's African American, I'm pretty sure. So, that's the only problem.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
Oh okay.
David Nir:
Yeah.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
I back down. I back down.
David Nir:
Do you want to be the next James Franco?
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
No thanks. That's hilarious. But I do think it would be a fantastic movie. That's an incredible story. Let's hope she gets elected, then we have the third act of the film for Christ’s sake.
David Beard:
Yeah. So if you want to see this movie, get her elected and then we can make the movie.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
Yeah. And maybe I'll produce it. I'll be behind the scenes.
David Beard:
There you go.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
Okay. That's amazing. Those two stories are extraordinary. And I know the other candidates are as equally qualified. So you have convinced me, of course. Not that I needed convincing. But I'm hoping that you've convinced listeners out there to donate. So how can people donate right now to these phenomenal candidates?
David Nir:
So we've made this real easy: Just go to JusticeWithJulia.com. That will take you directly to our page on ActBlue that has all seven candidates in all three states who are running for the state supreme court. You can easily donate to all of them.
And one thing I want to add is that these races for state supreme court have much, much smaller budgets than other statewide races, like for Senate. These campaigns might have a budget of only a million dollars, $2 million. Whereas these Senate races could be a hundred million dollars.
So for small-dollar grassroots donors, like the folks listening to this show and like the folks who follow you, Julia, on your various channels, you get incredible bang for your buck. Your donation really, really goes far and will make a huge difference in all of these races.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
Well, I'm delighted to have spoken with you guys today. I'm super psyched about JusticeWithJulia.com.
David Nir:
Well, thank you so much for joining us.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus:
Yeah. Totally fun to talk to you. And love your show. Love what you're doing. Keep it up. We're in it together. Let's get this done.
David Beard:
That's all from us this week. Thanks so much to the incredible Julia Louis-Dreyfus for joining us today. Once again, you can donate to all of these wonderful Supreme Court candidates by going to JusticeWithJulia.com. That's JusticeWithJulia.com. The Downballot comes out every Thursday, everywhere you listen to podcasts. If you haven't already, please like and subscribe to The Downballot and leave us a five-star rating and review. Thanks to our producer, Cara Zelaya, and editor, Tim Einenkel. We'll be back next week with a new episode.