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I'm old enough to remember when Markos was a fairly vocal proponent of Howard Dean's 50-State strategy, bringing support to grassroots progressives in deep red states, with the hope of turning them blue.  That spirit led to a well received and uncontroversial Netroots Nation conference in deep red Texas, which helped build progressive groups in Texas that are still active -- and forces to be reckoned with -- today.

Anyway, there are few worse statutes then SB 1070, and even though the Supreme Court has struck down some of it, enough remains that an economic boycott is still very much justified.  

However. . . .

Since when is a non-profit progressive conference whose message in part will be dedicated to the repeal of SB 1070 a GOOD thing for the proponents of Arizona's retrograde policies on immigration?

Yes, a secondary effect of the conference may be some marginal economic benefit to blue-dot Phoenix in deep red Arizona, but the primary, non-profit purpose will be a political message aligned with the message of the AZ boycott.  This is not the Superbowl, or a for-profit conference by some professional organization.  These are progressive activists in deep red territory trying to change the law, just as Howard Dean envisioned with his 50 State strategy.

Markos raised the example of Apartheid South Africa.  Should Robert Kennedy have stayed away from South Africa because of the incidental economic benefit his presence provided to the country, and robbed it of his impassioned and influential speech decrying apartheid?  Should Jesse Jackson have stayed away after Stephen Biko's death and right when the boycott movement was gaining steam?  I don't think anyone thinks they should have.

This seems like a tactical disagreement between good friends with the same goals, and one that I'm sure will be forgotten by 2016.  But I have to say, Markos' decision to have Daily Kos avoid Netroots Nation in 2015 seems wrongheaded and counterproductive.  I hope he, and the site, reconsiders.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Interesting points. (14+ / 0-)

    I've been of two minds on this topic.

    On the one hand, I begrudge no one the decision to avoid a place they feel is hostile to them or their friends and allies, possibly even dangerous.  SB 1070 is certainly bad enough to count as that.

    On the other hand, I've been thinking about all the states where it's legal to fire someone for being LGBT.  Just walk up to them and say, "You're gay, so you're fired," and that's 100% legal.  

    I've been thinking about places like Albuquerque, where police violence is rampant, and places like NYC, where Stop and Frisk has made a generation of young black and brown men into constant suspects in their own neighborhoods.  

    I've been thinking about all the places I've thought, "ok, I'm never going there," because cops were being charged with raping female rape victims when they reported.  (Or manually raping women on the side of the road, or stealing people's stuff with "civil forfeiture", I'm looking at you, Texas.)

    I'm thinking about how in most of America it seems to be de facto legal to beat up or even murder trans people, especially trans women of color.

    And I'm thinking it's one thing to make a personal decision about where one feels safe and tell people about that decision, and quite another to act like Arizona doesn't have plenty o' company when it comes to treating black/brown/Latin@/immigrant/LGBT/female people like we're less than human.

    You've made another good point -- that going somewhere politically hostile can build coalitions that help stop such treatment.

    Nobody should go somewhere that makes them feel inherently unsafe.  But we should acknowledge that where those places are varies, with justification.  (I, for one, would not feel safe in large swaths of Texas.)

    It's not an easy issue.  I haven't been keeping up on the diaries on this; I don't know what the battle lines are, or what's being said.  But I do think people of good will can disagree, without making any of them inherently wrong.

    © cai Visit 350.org to join the fight against global warming.

    by cai on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 06:07:04 PM PDT

  •  Not even close--those that ignore history... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    manyamile, chiniqua, dksbook, Azubia

    The ONLY public voice against  Arizona's racist laws was the local business community, which said "We'll lose conventions!" This is about the most stupid media move ever made. Imagine the press.

    CHANGE it!

  •  Identify and patronize the Hispanic businesses. (10+ / 0-)

    "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

    by zenbassoon on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 06:38:29 PM PDT

  •  Agreed and thanks for a reasoned diary (7+ / 0-)

    And since it has been mentioned that NN has contracted  for a venue , I think the gracious and diplomatic thing to do is to acknowledge that people, of course may choose to attend or not for a variety of reasons, but , as a progressive entity with common goals and interests, to offer full and unqualified support toward the success of the conference . That is  the ''big' thing  to do here, though that is just my opinion.  I do think this split is counterproductive.

  •  A) We all agree that Markos should make his (4+ / 0-)

    own personal decision on his participation.
    B) We all agree that it's really important for NN to have the support of Daily Kos.
    C) Thus, the convention should not be held in a city that Markos is opposed to.

    It's really fucking simple.

    •  No, it's not that simple. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Empty Vessel

      Dallasdoc: "Snowden is the natural successor to Osama bin Laden as the most consequential person in the world, as his actions have the potential to undo those taken in response to Osama."

      by gooderservice on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 08:39:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes it is that simple (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        doc2, Pluto

        If Markos gave his word then he gave it. No Arizona.

        Oath breaking, hypocritical, spineless leadership is the reason Markos created this site. To get rid of the losers, not to become one himself.

         I hope the hell he has the sense not to cave in over a one week conference in a police state. Do you really believe its worth asking him to trash his belief system and break his word? I don't.

        •  Name a city or state that is not a police state. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CavalierGirl, gooderservice

          I'm sure there are some, somewhere, but where and which ones?

          Detroit under the Emergency Manager law was not a police state?  It's practically a dictatorship.

          Markos is, of course, free to do anything he wishes, which he always does. But it is amazing that he has only this one, bright clear issue for which there is no compromise when there are so many issues of equal meanness, cruelty and inequality about which he doesn't seem to have bright lines. Compromising values (if any, i guess) is OK unless it is one issue in one place for that one person. The rest of our issues and values are just not that important.

          "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

          by YucatanMan on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 11:15:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No. It's not that your issues are not important. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            True North

            Not at all. Of course they are.

            And if you gave your word on one of those issues you felt so strongly about, I wouldn't expect you to break it for the convienece of others. I'd expect you to keep it, or I'd start to doubt your sincerity about everything you said.

            •  But that's not what we hear from the proprietor. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gooderservice

              According to him, single-issue Dems split the party and single-issue advocacy is harmful. Single-issue people are divisive, per MM. That's in his book by the way. I'm not just making it up. Unless it is his single issue and he splits the convention.

              What I'd like to know, though, is whether there were any discussions upfront and the organizers knew there was dissent upfront?  If so, and they went ahead anyway, that's one thing.

              If the whole thing was a surprise, then there is a bad process.

              If there were discussions and the discussions broke down with some people being stubborn, then they don't have their hearts in the right place.

              So my big question is:  How did this unfold?

              "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

              by YucatanMan on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 12:46:43 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  If Markos gave his word, (0+ / 0-)

                Then he needs to keep it.

                And we need to support him in keeping it.

                •  I am honestly in the dark about this: (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  gooderservice

                  To whom did he give his word?  I don't know about / never saw that part of whatever is involved.  

                  Has this been discussed somewhere that you can send me? A link or whatever?  I honestly don't know.

                  At the same time, I do maintain it exposes a conflict in message and actions, re: his book and other statements.

                  "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                  by YucatanMan on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 09:24:24 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well, this to me is pretty clearly- (0+ / 0-)

                    Markos making a strong statement of intent.

                    I made very clear in the wake of Arizona's passage of SB 1070 that I would not be setting foot in the state, nor spending a dime in it until the law was revoked. The law, however gutted by the courts, remains on the books, as does systemic harassment of Latinos, so my pledge still stands.
                    He has taken a moral stand here, and done it very publicly. He has said he will not set foot in Arizona while SB1070 is in place there. To me that is Markos giving his word. And if he backs down from it it's going to be used to hurt him. You are also asking him to compromise his own values.

                    Markos is not the common oath breaking shit heal of a leader that we all so love to hate here.
                    Stop trying to turn him into one already.

                    •  What is your odd issue? You respond very (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      gooderservice

                      strangely to people trying to understand what is going on.

                      I frankly do not give a hoot about where the convention is held. It obviously should be held where it will do good and where a lot of people can and will attend. That's the point of any convention.

                      You seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder and we're not even talking about your moral commitment or stand.

                      Wow.....

                      "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                      by YucatanMan on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 12:53:01 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Read the comment again (0+ / 0-)

                        What I think has very little to do with this. We are talking about Kos' moral stand. Mine was never mentioned.

                        •  As I said, you've got an odd take on attacking (0+ / 0-)

                          people who are simply asking questions:

                          He has taken a moral stand here, and done it very publicly. He has said he will not set foot in Arizona while SB1070 is in place there. To me that is Markos giving his word. And if he backs down from it it's going to be used to hurt him. You are also asking him to compromise his own values.

                          Markos is not the common oath breaking shit heal of a leader that we all so love to hate here.
                          Stop trying to turn him into one already.

                          Seeking information is not "asking him" to do anything, nor is it trying to "turn him into one".  

                          Why not just provide more information instead of accusing others of your own perceived attacks?

                          "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                          by YucatanMan on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 09:48:03 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  Do you have a link to the orginal quote, please? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      YucatanMan

                      Thank you.

                      Maybe someone's posted it before, but I didn't see it.

                      thanks again.

                      Dallasdoc: "Snowden is the natural successor to Osama bin Laden as the most consequential person in the world, as his actions have the potential to undo those taken in response to Osama."

                      by gooderservice on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 04:32:27 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  This quote would be out of one of (0+ / 0-)

                        Kos' most recent diaries on this topic. Do I really have to look it up for you?

                        •  No, it couldn't possibly be from one of his most (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          YucatanMan

                          recent diaries, unless he included his original quote from years ago.  If he did, I missed it.

                          I made very clear in the wake of Arizona's passage of SB 1070 that I would not be setting foot in the state, nor spending a dime in it until the law was revoked.
                          Of course you don't have to look it up for me.  I'm just wondering when and where he originally said exactly that years ago.  I haven't seen it.  Have you?

                          Dallasdoc: "Snowden is the natural successor to Osama bin Laden as the most consequential person in the world, as his actions have the potential to undo those taken in response to Osama."

                          by gooderservice on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 04:58:40 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Are you implying that Kos is lying about this? (0+ / 0-)

                            That he has some reason to say, now, in writing, that he made a pledge he never made?  Because that is what you are implying.

                            If so, yeah, by all means, dig that up and lay it out for us all...

                            At this juncture, you have pretty much proved my point that Kos absolutely needs to keep his word, because this is turning into a witch hunt, and he hasn't even done anything wrong yet. What will you people do to him if he gives you that kind of an opening? Bloody hell.

                          •  I never implied anything. I specifically stated (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            YucatanMan

                            that I wanted to read the original comment.

                            Dallasdoc: "Snowden is the natural successor to Osama bin Laden as the most consequential person in the world, as his actions have the potential to undo those taken in response to Osama."

                            by gooderservice on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 05:20:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Sure. (0+ / 0-)

                            What difference does it make at this point, unless you don't believe his most recent diaries?  

                            Either way, go dig in the dirt if it pleases you.

                          •  As I said, you're off the deep end. (0+ / 0-)

                            Way, way off the deep end.

                            I have no desire to attack Kos or whatever strange motivations you dream up tomorrow.

                            "witch hunt"  Seriously?
                            "you people do to him"  Are you for real?

                            It sounds like you think of Markos as your pet hamster who needs protection from a boa constrictor, rather than simply providing information. If you don't have any relevant information, just say so.

                            There's nothing at all wrong with asking for original information about anything any time.  That's not a witch hunt and no one is trying to do anything to any one.

                            You seem fearful, defensive, and ... just have an odd way of responding to neutral questions.  I hope you're OK.

                            "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

                            by YucatanMan on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 09:52:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You are right. Markos Moulitsas does not need (0+ / 0-)

                            my protection under any circumstances.  

                            My point was that he made a pledge and he appears to intend to keep it, and sometimes things really are that simple. You simply don't get what you want this time. I would have said that for anyone I respect. I am just off the deep end that way.

                            You post that Markos is being a hypocrite according to his own book and then state that you are not attacking him.

                            Since Kos is here and available, why don't you stop moping around playing childish games with me in a corner, and go ask him yourself. He has written multiple diaries on this topic, inviting comments from everyone.

                            You go confront him. Tell him about how you think he is divisive and a hypocrite to his face, and ask him to provide you links to his original pledge so you can read them for yourself.

                            I don't think it is going to change a thing, you are still not going to get what you want.

                            Have fun with that.

                      •  Netroots Nation is going to Arizona... (0+ / 0-)
                        •  sure, I read this. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          YucatanMan

                          I was asking for the link when he first said this years ago.

                          I made very clear in the wake of Arizona's passage of SB 1070 that I would not be setting foot in the state, nor spending a dime in it until the law was revoked. The law, however gutted by the courts, remains on the books, as does systemic harassment of Latinos, so my pledge still stands.

                          Dallasdoc: "Snowden is the natural successor to Osama bin Laden as the most consequential person in the world, as his actions have the potential to undo those taken in response to Osama."

                          by gooderservice on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 05:00:36 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

          •  Well said. (0+ / 0-)

            Many other people have principled issues, too, but we're not allowed to voice them if they "don't the Democratic narrative."  

            Dallasdoc: "Snowden is the natural successor to Osama bin Laden as the most consequential person in the world, as his actions have the potential to undo those taken in response to Osama."

            by gooderservice on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 04:30:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Phoenix will be a ghost town. (0+ / 0-)

        You'll see. I hope that is not the case, but I know that it will be.

        •  I'm not so sure of that. (0+ / 0-)

          Netroots is bigger that Daily Kos -- and plenty of Kossacks will be attending, nonetheless.

          However, there are a couple of things that could kill attendance:

          1.  If Arizona denies voter's rights in the 2014 mid-terms.

          2.  If Arizona doubles down on anti-immigration policies or harms or kills refugees in their custody.

          3.  If Arizona passes renewed calls for discrimination against gays -- which is going on right now,

          4.  If Arizona steps up their racial profiling and the tearing down of survival safety safety nets for the poor.

          5.  If Arizona cops wanton killing of civilians keeps up at its current pace.

          These are the hopes and dreams of the Arizona mainstream. Turn on the radio or local TV and see for yourself. As long as this depraved hate state reality doesn't make it the nation news -- then Netroots will be okay in Phoenix in July's hell.


          _______________
          For an idea that does not at first seem insane, there is no hope.
                      -- Albert Einstein:  far left, emo-prog, socialist.

          by Pluto on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 11:10:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I too (9+ / 0-)

    think the split is counterproductive. I don't begrudge Markos' decision to not have an official DK presence at NN15, but I hope that individual kossacks make up their own minds independent of the participation of Kos Media, LLC.

    Although it would be nice for NN to have the support of Daily Kos, NN is much more than Daily Kos now. Going to Phoenix is our opportunity to inject a small boost of support and energy to the progressives there who are working for change in Arizona.  

    "The American people are so used to being told they have freedom and democracy that they've forgotten to check to see if it's still true.." -Commenter on Facebook

    by Arenosa on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 07:58:06 PM PDT

    •  Making up own minds (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CavalierGirl

      I have no doubt whatsoever that kossacks will make up their own minds.

      But if you're suggesting that most people don't know what to think about this question until they hear from Kos, I think you're mistaken. This is something that most people are not only familiar with, but have opinions about already. I certainly know where I stand--which is outside Arizona, for the duration.

      The NN board knew where Kos stands when they made their decision about the venue. They are a knowledgeable bunch of people, about both the issues and the logistics of running NN 15. The majority of that board obviously is confident that NN 15 does not require the support of Kos & Co. to succeed.

      Anyone who chooses to go, should go, and those who don't, won't.

      •  I'm not suggesting that at all. (0+ / 0-)

        There has been a lot of discussion of this issue by now, with plenty of information on both sides that will help people decide for themselves.

        I had some concern initially that there was a lot of automatic "If kos isn't going, I'm not going" expressed. I respect Markos' personal choice. I am not Latino (Spanish username notwithstanding), so I am not qualified to comment on anyone's concern about being targeted for it.

        That said, I abhor SB 1070. Gutted or not, it should be repealed. My hope is that by holding NN in Phoenix, we can provide a small boost to the AZ progressives who are working to make that happen. And I won't deny that having a couple of friends and an aunt in AZ that I wouldn't mind visiting (I'm originally from AZ, although I live elsewhere now) colors my feelings about going. At the same time, if it were just about visiting family and friends, I wouldn't even dream of going in the summer.

        "The American people are so used to being told they have freedom and democracy that they've forgotten to check to see if it's still true.." -Commenter on Facebook

        by Arenosa on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 03:37:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I said elsewhere, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dksbook, cai

    Before NN-15 was announced and Markos took a stand, I supported and applauded all other groups that boycott Arizona for their social policies.
    If they decide not to have conferances and conventions there, I should support Markos as well.

    Cut and dry.

    It sends a message to Arizona and to NN; get your poop in a group!

    Jehovah's witnesses don't celebrate Halloween, I'm guessing it's because they don't appreciate random people coming up to their doors either.

    by Nebraska68847Dem on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 07:58:31 PM PDT

    •  Does anyone happen to know if the mysterious, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jon Says

      never identified people who organize NN had a phone call or discussion with Markos over the location? Or did they just decide independently and then the shit hit the fan?

      I'm just really curious what the mechanics of this split were -- how the process unfolded, when discussions were held, when commitments were made?

      Anyone know?

      "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

      by YucatanMan on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 11:17:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Board (non-mysterious) (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CavalierGirl, YucatanMan

        Netroots Nation has a board that looks pretty darned impressive, and not the least bit mysterious.

        http://www.netrootsnation.org/...

        I wasn't at NN and I am not familiar with the process used to finalize the choice of venue. I assume that the board agreed to selecting Phoenix as the venue.

        •  The reason I used that wording is that in all (0+ / 0-)

          the diaries I have seen on the subject, the make-up of the board and their decision-making process has not been discussed. (Maybe I have missed the one or two where it was???)

          So, I'm just wanted to understand the dynamics.  Not referring to you, but in other places where I've asked "how did this unfold?" people have responded with personal attacks and accusations about my morals, etc.

          I simply want to understand what's going on. What's the deal with people saying things like "Maybe giving your word doesn't mean much to you?"  

          Not asking True North personally, just out loud wondering - What is up with the hostility in general around this issue?

          "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

          by YucatanMan on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 12:56:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I hope the powers that be reconsider Arizona as (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cai, Pluto

    the site by understanding that brown people, especially Spanish speakers, don't feel safe traveling in the state given it's anti Mexican laws and customs.

    “I’m able to fly, do what I want, essentially. I guess that’s what freedom is — no limits.” Marybeth Onyeukwu -- Brooklyn DREAMer.

    by chuco35 on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 08:05:05 PM PDT

    •  True, but Black people don't feel comfortable (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jon Says, CavalierGirl

      or safe in many cities, nor do LGBT people feel comfortable or safe in many locales. I mean, there are groups of people who have reasonable objections to just about anywhere.

      And Michigan certainly seems to have its objectionable aspects with the dickhead governor and the legislature's outrageous emergency manager law and union busting attempts.

      Where doesn't have something seriously objectionable?

      "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

      by YucatanMan on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 11:19:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Given Arizona, NN should reconsider (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dksbook, Pluto

    This is a bone headed choice.  Surely the group thinking about doing this had to realize that at best, this would be divisive.

    I lived in Arizona for a few years, on the Navajo Nation.  One of the things I heard from friends is how racist people were in the cities towards Indian people.  That predated the anti immigrant and anti bilingual education politics.  

    Arizona has some very hateful and bigoted people and they need to feel the displeasure of the more progressive part of the population.  

    They don't give a hoot about protests and they aren't going to be concerned as they count up the dollars.  

    hope that the idiots who have no constructive and creative solutions but only look to tear down will not win the day.

    by Stuart Heady on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 08:18:03 PM PDT

    •  We do have some hateful & bigoted people here (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cai, Bongobanger, CavalierGirl

      & they love feeling the displeasure of the more progressive part of the population. Personally, I don't worry too much about their feelings one way or the other. I do worry some about my progressive brethren here, be nice to get some support from this site, which I have been supporting for the last decade. Oh well. We all do what we can, right?
      If/when NN comes to Phoenix next year, I plan to make the trip up from Tucson. I can't blame anyone who for whatever reason doesn't, but don't delude yourself about boycotting being in any way determinative of state policy.

      I'll tell you right out, I am a man who likes talking to a man who likes to talk. - Kasper Gutman

      by rasbobbo on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 08:57:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Neither would they give a hoot about the (6+ / 0-)

      non-existent economic hit that the absence of the NN convention would represent were NN to go elsewhere.

      Look, if holding the convention there is wrong headed because of 1070, then, by the same token, NN should not meet in any state that restricts a woman's access to reproductive health care, nor in any state that attempts to disenfranchise minority voters, nor in any state that engages in fracking or other environment despoiling activities, nor in any state that refuses to pay its workers a living wage.

      My view is that holding NN in a Republican dominated state presents a golden opportunity to pierce the insular red bubble of right wing messaging with an alternative point of view. We should never shy away from that opportunity.

      Just HOW do we get our representatives to move in a populist direction without threatening electoral consequences for their willful failure to do so? (This is the issue routinely avoided by party loyalists at the GOS.)

      by WisePiper on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 09:11:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm old enough to remember when Markos wrote th... (4+ / 0-)

    I'm old enough to remember

    when Markos wrote that "single-issue groups ... hurt the Democratic Party in its search for a common identity..." (Crashing the Gates, ch 2, page 39 in a section entitled "Divided We Fall")

    Perhaps Markos will clarify his position.

    •  With all due respect to our host, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ROGNM, CavalierGirl

      and intending no minimization of the awfulness of SB 1070... it's different when it's you.  When it's your own group.

      Most of us experience that.  Stuff that seems aimed at us in particular... whether that's concerning our ethnicities, our genders, our sexual orientations, our gender expressions, our religions (or lack thereof), our illnesses or disability statuses, our sizes... or our most urgent political issues... it strikes at us more deeply.  

      No matter how much we empathize and seek to be allies, it's different when it's ourselves.

      That's why Markos could sniff at the "sanctimonious women's studies set" (i.e., women sticking up for their right to be treated and depicted with respect).

      In fairness to Markos, he has both a moral stand at stake, and a personal risk -- he's committed himself to a boycott, and he might consider himself at risk from racial profiling and arrest in Arizona.  Both are reasonable reasons to stay away.

      I do hope that this opens some minds to how it's different -- when it's you.  There's nothing wrong with that.  There is something wrong with believing that your own issue and identity is somehow superior to other people's -- more important or crucial or inherently tied up with your own human dignity.  

      "Identity politics" are easy to dismiss when it's not your own humanity at stake.  Rather than arguing against them, I think we need to synthesize a position that embraces all of them, along with an economic justice platform, an environmental justice platform and an anti-climate crisis platform.  

      Some may say this is too scattered or unfocused, but the truth is, many of these issues must be dealt with in concert to address them adequately.

      As Michael J. Fox said in The American President, "We don't have time for one thing at a time."

      © cai Visit 350.org to join the fight against global warming.

      by cai on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 09:11:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Totally 100% agree (7+ / 0-)

    Thanks pontificator for putting into words precisely my opinion on this question, with one added point:  we have been ASKED by the progressive community in the heart of dark-red AZ to come, show solidarity, march with them, pow-wow with them, be in body and spirit with them.

    The very people who Markos claims are asking us to stay away, are asking us to schlep to AZ in the ridiculous desert heat, to be with them, organize with them, not just in virtual reality, but in reality-reality.  

    Choose to stay away, I respect and honor that, and I don't judge that.  But I'm going to AZ.  And as Pontificator says, I hope Markos and his LLC reconsider and choose to join us.

  •  I hear that the hotels and conference rooms (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CavalierGirl, YucatanMan, Bongobanger

    have air conditioning.

    Dallasdoc: "Snowden is the natural successor to Osama bin Laden as the most consequential person in the world, as his actions have the potential to undo those taken in response to Osama."

    by gooderservice on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 08:42:21 PM PDT

  •  It is my opinion that anyone who wants AZ (6+ / 0-)

    To change should show up and give them a compelling reason to do so.

    I think this is a great opportunity to mobilize the left on the issue of immigration.

    And your money is going mostly to Phoenix, a solidly blue and progressive city where the traffic sucks (sorry, had to throw that one dig in there).

    I'm going and I will be supporting the local businesses there, especially those that spoke out against sb1070.

    I do care passionately about this issue. There's no better place to bring it to the forefront of our consciousness.

    I respect kos and Armando's decision but I don't agree with it.

    P.S. I am not a crackpot.

    by BoiseBlue on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 09:06:55 PM PDT

  •  Is there a way to do it without spending money (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pluto, CavalierGirl

    There?

  •  Take it from someone in Texas (0+ / 0-)

    We need to be where the fight is.

    I left DC and moved to Texas to work for the teachers union (AFT) - to build the labor movement here.   I have friends in AZ fighting the good fight.  It's miserable and hard work but it is NECESSARY.

    Those at the front lines of adversity need a NN rally the most.

    Hope to see folks in Phoenix next year.

    Thanks for writing this.

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