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Live coverage: Ivanka Trump testifies in New York fraud trial

by Mark Sumner for Daily Kos Liveblogs

Daily Kos Staff Emeritus

Wednesday, Nov. 08, 2023 Wednesday, Nov. 08, 2023 at 6:40:07am PST

Ivanka Trump, daughter of former US President Donald Trump, arrives to testify in the Trump Organization civil fraud trial, at the New York State Supreme Court in New York City on November 8, 2023. The former president's daughter left the Trump Organization in 2017 to become a White House advisor and is not a codefendant in the case. Trump, his sons Don Jr and Eric, and other Trump Organization executives are accused of exaggerating the value of their real estate assets by billions of dollars to obtain more favorable bank loans and insurance terms. (Photo by TIMOTHY A. CLARY / AFP) (Photo by TIMOTHY A. CLARY/AFP via Getty Images)

At 10 AM ET, Ivanka Trump will overcome the personal hardship of appearing during a school week and take the stand to testify concerning the massive levels of fraud committed by Donald Trump, Donald Trump Jr., Eric Trump, and other officers of the Trump Organization.

Unlike her father and brothers, Ivanka is not personally at risk, since most of her involvement in the actions under investigation were protected by the statute of limitations. That means that, unlike other other members of her family, she may still be able to conduct business in New York when this is over. Also, she may actually be concerned about avoiding perjury.

This is likely to be the last time that anyone named “Trump” takes the stand in Judge Arthur Engoron’s courtroom. Trump’s legal team chose not to direct any questions to other family members after the state completed its questioning on previous days, and it seems highly unlikely that any will be called again. Once Ivanka completes her testimony, the state is expected to rest its case.

But don’t run off when she leaves the stand. There could be fireworks before the day is over.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 9:45:46 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

The morning session included a devastating sequence of documents showing how the Trump Organization had been unable to obtain financing for its Doral project. Then, after being turned down by multiple banks, they obtained the money from Deutsche Bank by making false representations about Trump’s net worth and cash assets.

The afternoon introduced what seemed to be a scheme in which money went to the trusts of Trump’s adult kids, only to be laundered back to Trump.

Finally, the state ended its questioning and the defense took over. The defense questioning was centered on having Ivanka talk about how happy the banks were to be involved with Trump and how proud they were of what they accomplished—neither of which addresses the issue of fraud.

At the end of the day, both state’s attorneys and Judge Engoron appeared to be laughing at the defense’s efforts to get Ivanka to tell stories of the “super luxury” hotels, “world-class” dining, and other terms lifted from a sales brochure.

The state has rested its case and the defense will begin bringing in witnesses next week. But first, Thursday will be devoted to hearing motions from both the defense and prosecution.

Thanks for coming, folks.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 9:37:48 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

And that’s finally it for the day. Court adjourned.

The trial will resume tomorrow at 10 AM ET with motions from both sides. Kise will ask for a directed verdict in favor of Trump. Spoiler alert: He won’t get it.

No court on Friday, so no more witnesses this week.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 9:34:52 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Jeff McConney recently retired from the Trump Organization, where he was the controller. As an officer, he’s also a defendant in this case.

He’s already been on the stand during the prosecution phase, where the longtime accountant displayed an amazing ignorance of accounting.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 9:32:25 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Instead, Kise wants to turn Thursday into motion day.

Kise wants to use tomorrow for his motion for a directed verdict, which he does not believe will consume all day. And it seems Jeff McConney will be one of their first witnesses, if not their absolute first witness.
— Lisa Rubin (@lawofruby) November 8, 2023

It’s a safe bet it also won’t take a day for Engoron to rule on that motion.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 9:30:59 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Apparently, the defense had earlier indicated that the cross-examination of Ivanka would move into tomorrow morning. Except it didn’t. And they don’t have a witness ready for tomorrow.

Judges love it when lawyers are unprepared.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 9:29:39 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Kise objects, saying that the attorney general either has to call Weisselberg now or rest. Engoron explains that in a case like this, the AG can request to reopen their case. So it doesn’t matter.

Kise is angry.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 9:26:53 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

As expected, the state rests its case. However, they reserve the right to call former Trump CFO Allen Weisselberg.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 9:25:51 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Finally, Suarez manages to bite his tongue long enough for Ivanka to finish. And that’s it. No redirect from the government because, honestly, what was said in cross that they possibly needed to address?

Now Ivanka is leaving the stand. Really.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 9:23:00 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

New York Times:

Suarez, the defense lawyer, appears to have lost his temper about the government laughing at his questions "They're laughing. They're sitting back here laughing," he says, pointing. "They think this is funny. This is not funny."

He says he wants the record to reflect the government is laughing at its own attempts to "destroy this country."

Suarez interrupted Ivanka’s glowing reply about the nice relationship with the government during the Old Post Office project to deliver this tirade.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 9:19:37 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Suarez launches into a speech about the “great work” the Trump family has done and complains again about the prosecutors laughing.

Engoron says maybe they were just laughing at how Suarez phrased his question.

When we get the transcript of this day, someone needs to make a skit.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 9:16:50 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Suarez snaps at the NYAG's lawyers, indignantly telling the judge in a speech that they're laughing at the state's table.

"They're trying to destroy thousands of job in this state."

The AG's counsel moves to strike the speech.

Suarez: "They're striking. They're laughing."
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

The jobs will still be there. They just won’t report to Trump.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 9:15:18 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Suarez asks Ivanka what the government thought of the job they did at the Old Post Office. Ivanka replies, “I can’t speak for the whole federal government.”

That got a laugh from everyone. Engoron included.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 9:12:43 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Now things are just getting fun.

Engoron to Trump's attorney, after hearing a read-back of what he just asked Ivanka Trump:

"That's a ridiculous question."
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 9:10:38 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Kise complains that Engoron rules for the state far more often than the defense.

Engoron: “You could try to surmise that that’s because of bias or you could try to understand that I think their objections have been of greater validity than yours.”

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 9:06:13 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Engoron is not going to allow Suarez to initiate a conversation with Ivanka over a document she hasn’t seen. Kise is pissed. But then, that seems to be his constant state.

Sucks that Trump kicked you off the Florida case for making reasonable suggestions and now you’re working in a state you don’t know, with prosecutors and a judge you don’t know. Huh, Chris Kise?

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 9:03:41 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Kise jumps to his feet, upset that Engoron isn’t apparently allowing them to do whatever it is they want to do with this document.

He accuses Engoron have having “two sets of standards” after allowing the state to enter their document in the morning.

Solomon points out that the document they entered was a communication between GSA and Ivanka. This document is an internal government document Ivanka hasn't seen.

Engoron isn’t pleased by the accusation.

Engoron to Kise:

"Your constant insinuations that I have different set of standards. It's just not true. [...] You can keep saying it if it makes you happy, that I'm favoring one side over the other. [...] I don't count them. I just make the rulings as I see them."
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 8:59:37 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Actually, this seems to be a different document on the same topic—an internal GSA document.

The AG's counsel Louis Solomon objected to its admission, saying that it's the GSA's internal document.

"She's never seen it before today," Solomon said.

Engoron, ruling for the defense, allows it, but he limits certain questioning on it.
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

Still waiting for how Suarez makes this a win for Trump.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 8:57:17 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Okay. Suarez is showing Ivanka the same document that Solomon held out earlier, the GSA document saying that the financial statements from Trump didn’t comply with GAAP.

Not sure how he’s spinning this as a good thing.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 8:54:32 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

New York Times:

Ivanka Trump is talking about how successful the redevelopment of the Old Post Office was. She hasn’t mentioned the hotel never turned a profit; it lost more than $74 million under the Trumps' ownership. This does not include Trump’s initial investment and other money he put into it when it owned it.

But the tree was happy. And isn’t that all that matters?

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 8:52:52 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Seriously. You may think I’m exaggerating, but it’s all like this.

Ivanka says the bank called the Trump Hotel in DC the "crown jewel" of its portfolio and that she dedicated a lot of her life to it
— Scott MacFarlane (@MacFarlaneNews) November 8, 2023

That James Horner score stopped playing a long time ago. Now it’s more like the constant buzzing of mosquitoes. Mosquitoes scratching on a blackboard.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 8:50:15 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Take this sentence. Riff on it endlessly. You get the idea.

Ivanka Trump on the Old Post Office:

"It was a very special iconic building that I'm really proud to have had the opportunity to work on."
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 8:48:55 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

We’re moving on from Doral to the Old Post Office, but nothing else has changed. Ivanka is giving long ecstatic answers about how much she loved the project, how proud she was of what they accomplished, and how happy the banks were to be involved.

Just one repetition seems early to have already gotten exhausted by a schtick. Turns out, it is possible.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 8:45:42 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Not sure if she brought her own lighting.

Ivanka Trump, daughter of former US President Donald Trump, returns after a break in the Trump Organization civil fraud trial, at the New York State Supreme Court in New York City on November 8, 2023. The former president's daughter left the Trump Organization in 2017 to become a White House advisor and is not a codefendant in the case. Trump, his sons Don Jr and Eric, and other Trump Organization executives are accused of exaggerating the value of their real estate assets by billions of dollars to obtain more favorable bank loans and insurance terms. (Photo by Adam GRAY / AFP) (Photo by ADAM GRAY/AFP via Getty Images)

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 8:42:40 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

And everyone is back in the courtroom, taking their places for what should be today’s final act.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 8:41:06 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

We’re on the 20th minute of this 15-minute break because that’s how these things seem to go. But things will be cooking again shortly.

When the cross is over, the state is expected to rest its case, which could be the precursor to a series of motions. However, Engoron may delay that to the morning since the defense seems determined to keep Ivanka talking about how much Deutsche loves Trump, how much Trump loves Doral, and how much she loves her poppa.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 8:35:14 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Suarez’s questioning of Ivanka seems like a preview of the case the defense is going to make over the next two weeks. Which was also the underlying theme of Trump’s rant on Monday: No harm, no foul. If everyone made money, and the banks were happy, then it can’t be a crime. Right?

Except yes. Yes, it can. None of this has one thing to do with whether or not Trump and his company committed fraud.

Deutsche's Vrablic to Ivanka Trump on March 8, 2013, regarding the Doral:

"I am SO glad we got to see you and have you show us the new rooms. They look amazing! I have had a wonderful time here and it is really impressive to see what you have accomplished so quickly."
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 8:23:50 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

And now, we’re not done. But we are on a 15-minute break. Then we’ll come back to find what else Ivanka loves.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 8:21:52 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

You can practically hear a James Horner score breaking out in the background as Ivanka dreamily speaks of her love for Doral. It’s touching.

Given how little she recalled about the terms of the related loans, Ivanka’s recollection of the beginning of her involvement in the multi-year, multi-million-dollar Doral acquisition and renovation strikes me as oddly extensive.
— Lisa Rubin (@lawofruby) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 8:19:40 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Suarez is asking about Doral. Ivanka talks about how nostalgic Trump was about the property, and how proud she is of the hotel. Which is fine. It’s fine. It’s just has nothing to do with the issues in the case.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 8:17:55 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Ivanka only seemed cooperative in the morning, because she clearly loves these questions. She’s leaning into these answers so much that it seems like she’s about to pop out a brochure.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 8:16:31 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Suarez has now asked questions about whether Trump was “courted” by the banks and whether there was “competition” to work with him. (He actually used “courted” twice—clearly a terminology shortage)

No one seems to remember this morning when bank after bank shoved away Trump’s business with the email equivalent of 10-foot poles.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 8:12:44 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

We are soon going to be down to whether Trump was given a promotional toaster.

Then-Deutsche CEO to Donald J. Trump:

"Dear Donald,

Great to meet you for lunch last week. It was a pleasure to see your delight in the buildout of your family holdings and your justified pride in having your children in the business."
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 8:11:03 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Suarez is still leading Ivanka through just how happy Deutsche Bank was to be associated with Trump. He asks Ivanka about a request to have members of the Trump family appear in a promotional video.

Again, Deutsche may have been happy, but they were also lied to. Considering how long Suarez is spending on this, and how Trump talked about it on Monday, it seems pretty obvious that either Vrablic or someone else from Deutsche will testify for the defense.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 8:07:10 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

When Trump gets around to talking about this, I fully expect him to pronounce Jesus Suarez’s name in a 2 Corinthians way.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 8:04:10 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

The cross is still dealing with how happy, happy Deutsche was to have Trump in the family.

On cross examination, Jesus Suarez is hammering at a theme: Deutsche Bank wanted to make money, and the favorable loan terms they extended to Trump were part and parcel of an overall strategy to make money from their relationship with the Trumps. Not only did DB offer them other…
— Lisa Rubin (@lawofruby) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 8:01:18 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Suarez is asking about the relationship between Vrablic at Deutsche Bank and Trump. Ivanka says that Vrablic “expressed tremendous excitement to have our account.”

What doesn’t get mentioned is that they lied to Vrablic about Trump’s net worth and liquid assets. That might have dimmed that excitement.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 7:58:29 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Lisa Rubin puts together the point of the afternoon questions and why Solomon saved looking at Ivanka’s trust for the end.

The AG’s lawyer just showed Ivanka proof that despite making a personal guaranty to Deutsche Bank in connection with the Old Post Office loan, Trump then entered into an agreement with his adult kids, through which each agreed to pay him money through their revocable trusts to…
— Lisa Rubin (@lawofruby) November 8, 2023

Get that? Trump made a deal where each of his kids funneled money through their trusts and paid him. This should be jaw-dropping. But, you know… Trump.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 7:55:49 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Cross-examining Ivanka Trump is attorney Jesus Suarez.

Shortly after he begins questioning, Engoron notes that she's answered some of the questions already.

Christopher Kise notes for the record that less than a minute in, the defense is already getting a "hurry up."
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

Kise grumbles that this is “grossly unfair.”

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 7:55:03 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Wait! Shocker, but the defense team decided to cross-examine Ivanka. So she’s not able to get up just yet.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 7:53:43 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

And that seems to be it. No more questions. If there was a point to all the afternoon questions, that point hasn’t yet become clear.

NEW: Ivanka’s direct testimony is over and has been relatively placid. But that doesn’t mean there were no surprises.
— Lisa Rubin (@lawofruby) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 7:52:14 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Seems like her financial documents should provide an answer to this question.

Ivanka Trump confirms that she received payment on the sale of the Old Post Office, but she doesn't recall the amount.

(Note: The state previously estimated it was at least $4 million.)
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 7:50:46 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

One of the documents Ivanka is asked to look at involves the Ivanka Trump Revocable Trust. This at least generates the first laugh of the afternoon as Ivanka struggles to pronounce “revocable.”

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 7:47:18 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

According to legal journalist Kate Christobek, this afternoon session has been boring enough that people are falling asleep in the overflow room.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 7:44:51 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

We’re back to where we were toward the end of the morning as Ivanka slowly reads through the documents she is presented, often expressing that she doesn’t recall them specifically.

Ivanka Trump reviews a document titled "Second Amended and Restated Limited Liability Company Agreement" on the Trump Old Post Office deal from Dec. 31, 2013.
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 7:42:36 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Ivanka’s less smiley, and more snippy in the afternoon session. She seems frustrated at being asked about this series of emails.

Maybe someone told her that the morning session wasn’t as pleasant for everyone else as it was for her.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 7:39:00 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Not sure what changes Ivanka was requesting, but Solomon may make that clear. As he did this morning, he seems to be moving back and forth among several documents, circling the subject.

On to another document for the moment.

Deutsche Bank's Tom Sullivan sent Ivanka Trump an email on Dec. 2, 2013, with the subject line and attachment reading "Term Sheet - Old Post Office."

The attachment contained the terms on the $160 million loan amount.

They review the conditions.
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 7:36:32 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Back to the GAO’s concerns over the Old Post Office submission.

“Ivanka wanted me to change the language in the GAAP section,” wrote David Orowitz to Allen Weisselberg on Dec. 2011. She testified that she had no reason to believe he was inaccurate.
— Lisa Rubin (@lawofruby) November 8, 2023

GAAP is essentially standard accounting practices.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 7:34:02 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

The documents in question show Kushner advising Ivanka that she can get a better rate if they involve another of his friends, this time at Natixis Investments.

Kushner seems to have a lot of friends with access to a lot of money.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 7:30:28 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Engoron indicates that because both Ivanka and Kushner used work emails to communicate, they were doing business, not engaged in private discussions as spouses. And that seems to be where this is going to stand for now.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 7:28:58 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

The one answer that Ivanka gave in the morning that wasn’t just vague, but an obvious lie.

How is this answer even possible?
If the institutional side of DB agreed to the deal terms Trump wanted, there would be ABSOLUTELY no reason to go elsewhere. https://t.co/BLfgCkVhsX
— Stephanie Ruhle (@SRuhle) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 7:26:15 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

This isn’t over. But at least it seems to be over for now.

Engoron finds the communications are not privileged.
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 7:23:34 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Engoron starts by saying that he doesn’t believe the business documents introduced by the state are covered by spousal privilege. However, he also says he’ll give the defense the chance to argue the case.

I was really hoping they’d knock this out over lunch.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 7:19:51 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Engoron is back on the bench. The afternoon session should begin shortly.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 6:38:20 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

This is the key takeaway from the morning session. The state brought out evidence that, again and again, Trump was turned down in attempting to obtain financing for Doral, with most of those efforts not even getting to the point of banks setting a rate. And that was despite Ivanka providing those banks with both her package on Doral and Trump’s financial statements.

Then Deutsche Bank not only agreed to make the deal, but gave Trump a sweetheart rate, handing him cash 6% lower than the going commercial rate. All of that was completely dependent on Trump’s statement of financial condition which covered his assets and his liquidity.

a guaranty that Trump could cover the principal, interest, and operating income of each asset and proof that he maintained a minimum net worth of $2-3 billion, exclusive of brand value, as demonstrated by … his annual statements of financial condition.
— Lisa Rubin (@lawofruby) November 8, 2023

On Monday, Trump argued that those statements weren’t important, that the banks didn’t care, and that he would have received the loans without them. Ivanka’s testimony, and the documents the state produced during that testimony, showed that this was not the case.

Trump’s loan rates were a gift provided to him based on his statement of financial condition, and the statement of financial condition was a lie.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 6:29:09 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

MSNBC on Trump’s Monday testimony.

Donald Trump’s long-awaited testimony in New York’s civil fraud case against him and the Trump Organization was a fiasco for the former president. He botched whatever slim chances he had of limiting the damage with the trial judge, compromised his chances on appeal, and signaled the bumpy road he will face when deciding whether to testify in his criminal cases.

But other than that, Mrs. Lincoln ...

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 6:24:40 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Lunch has been extended to 90 minutes. Likely so that Engoron and the attorneys from each side can work out a way to reduce the number of objections in the afternoon.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 6:18:23 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Hopefully, Engoron will talk with Kise and work out some limits to the spousal defense over lunch. Because it’s clear that Kushner was involved in connecting Ivanka with Rosemary Vrablic at Deutsche Bank, and that he helped review proposals on the Old Post Office.

There’s also the possibility that this could connect with a company called Bergel 715 Associates, partially owned by Kushner, that sold Vrablic an an apartment in 2013 while she was still involved in arranging loans for Trump. There appears to have been a lot of mutual hand-washing going on among these “friends.”

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 5:56:59 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Ivanka goes back to her seat and as soon as Solomon asks something else, Kise objects again.

Engoron declares that this seems like a good time for lunch. Go find something non-fraudulent to consume while we wait to see if things will continue in the afternoon.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 5:54:56 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

While we wait …

A crowd of people chant "FRAUD FAMILY" as Ivanka Trump enters a New York courtroom for her testimony today. pic.twitter.com/BlfJCzRwN7
— Amee Vanderpool (@girlsreallyrule) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 5:49:37 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

With the 2024 elections approaching, we need to work just as hard to defeat Trump and his cronies now as we did in 2020. Unfortunately, we have seen our revenue drop over the last few years, making our work more difficult. Please support Daily Kos with a donation of $5 today.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 5:48:49 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Everything has ground to a halt again, and here’s the cause …

The parties are arguing over an email from Ivanka Trump to Jared Kushner, which Chris Kise argues fell under spousal privilege.
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 5:41:36 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

This document about the Old Post Office is clearly a hot potato that Ivanka didn’t wear thick enough mitts to handle.

The questions vary.. but the theme of the responses remains the same

It's a blend of "I don't recall" and I don't have personal knowledge of "my father's financial statements"
— Scott MacFarlane (@MacFarlaneNews) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 5:39:42 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

I don't precisely understand Kise's SOL objection. But if Trump defrauded the USG in acquiring OPO, it exposes him to other legal trouble. https://t.co/jPOj9B9DaS
— emptywheel (@emptywheel) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 5:36:36 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Ivanka says she can’t remember if the GSA had any issues specifically related to the statement of financial condition. Which appears to be the subject of all the issues.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 5:34:32 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

She’s not recalling a lot of things about this document. She admitted that GSA had issues and that the Trump Organization “worked” to solve them. Everything else seems to be a blur.

A Trump employee, David Orowitz, internally circulated a proposed response to GSA’s concerns; Ivanka does not recall that they received a “deficiency letter” to which Orowitz was trying to respond. She does remember GSA had “questions” to which they worked to get them “answers.”
— Lisa Rubin (@lawofruby) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 5:31:18 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Half an hour until we recess for lunch. Ivanka is being presented with a series of documents about the Old Post Office deal. These include a statement from the General Services Administration noting issues with Trump’s statement of financial condition—a statement that went to both Trump and Ivanka.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 5:28:39 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Details on that ruling in D.C. from Judge Chutkan: She’s told Trump that he has to inform the court if he intends to use and “advice of counsel” defense by Jan 15. And he has to turn over any documents he intends to make that claim.

Okay, back to the live show.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 5:25:38 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Ivanka doesn’t seem to get how this is done. She’s laughing at Engoron’s jokes, smiling at the prosecutors, and did not spend her morning break making racist remarks about Attorney General James.

Of course, she’s also not facing tens or hundreds of millions in fines and the loss of her ability to do business. That can affect someone’s attitude.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 5:23:37 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

And just like that, Engoron sends everyone back to their seats. Except for Solomon, who gets to resume questioning Ivanka.

At the end of Kise's speaking objection, Engoron says simply: "I disagree. Overruled," and he says to get the witness back in.

"I'm sorry to have kept you in the dark," the judge tells Ivanka, who smiles at the remark.

She was waiting in his chambers during the exchange.
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 5:22:08 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Kise would be very happy to spend the rest of the day this way. Will detail the other news when I can.

While we listen to a lengthy back and forth between Chris Kise and Lou Solomon about the relevance of documents submitted to the General Services Admission to the loan for that project, Judge Tanya Chutkan has ruled on Trump’s obligation to notify the government if he will rely…
— Lisa Rubin (@lawofruby) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 5:18:27 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Arguing continues in front of Engoron’s bench with Kise still talking about the statute of limitations.

Your defendant today is dressed in a black jacket, black slacks, and a white top. She also appears to have stilts on her feet that would put Ron DeSantis’ boots to shame, but it’s hard to see. Anyway, she seems ready to play center in the NBA.

Waiting for things to resume ...

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 5:13:42 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Ah. It’s the statute of limitations thing again.

Many of the earlier documents have been entered subject to connection to alleged acts within the statute of limitations period.

Kise: "I just don't see the connectivity here."
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 5:11:48 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Ivanka seems more relaxed following the break, laughing as she says the documents for the Old Post Office project look more familiar. Responds “I always endeavor to be truthful” in response to a question about the financial statements.

The defense objects to questioning about a potential investor in the Post Office. Not clear why. Kise complains about Ivanka being “dragged” into court to answer these questions.

Which seems like a pretty good signal that he’s concerned about how she answers these questions.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 5:05:50 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

For someone who has gone through such pains not to perjure herself in these statements, this seems like a very dumb response.

“Did you understand that the Trump Org by dealing with the private wealth management group at Deutsche Bank was able to obtain a lower interest rate and origination fees than if they had dealt with the commercial real estate group?” Ivanka: “No.”
— Lisa Rubin (@lawofruby) November 8, 2023

Of course she did.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 5:04:30 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

The emails seem to be more evidence that the Trump Organization was getting rates better than other commercial borrowers because of the guarantees made about Trump’s wealth, liquidity, etc.

But now the questions are moving to something that’s likely to be interesting.

Questioning turns to a 2011 proposal for the Trump's conversion of the Old Post Office in D.C. to the Trump International Hotel.
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 5:01:56 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Prosecutors are rolling thru several of Ivanka's emails from 2011-12. She picks up a hard copy of each exhibit and studies it, with apparent vigilance

She studies the page in a way that reminds me of how we used to look at hard-copy, foldout street maps, looking for a tiny road
— Scott MacFarlane (@MacFarlaneNews) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 5:00:57 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Ivanka is handed an email from 2012. She studies it closely, reading in silence. Nope, can’t recall. Repeat.

Not a lot happening at the moment. These documents could be critical to another thrust of the AG’s case—probably are, or they wouldn’t be getting time during this critical testimony—but it’s difficult to tell what they are from what is being seen and heard in court at the moment.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 4:54:17 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Solomon is once again showing Ivanka documents from Deutsche Bank. Ivanka is hauling out another series of “I don’t recall” responses. Her memory seems to be declining as the day goes on.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 4:50:48 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Just because Ivanka is a less contentious witness, doesn’t mean this hasn’t been a terrible day for everyone else at the Trump Organization.

MSNBC Legal Analyst @lawofruby breaks down the first session of Ivanka Trump's testimony, including "a devastating series of documents for the Trump Org." pic.twitter.com/tQzgsXKgYb
— MSNBC (@MSNBC) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 4:49:40 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Ivanka is back on the stand. We are underway again.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 4:40:15 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Interesting that during testimony from Junior and Eric, there was some empty space in the courtroom. But during testimony from Trump and Ivanka, the courtroom has not only been full, so has the overflow room.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 4:38:18 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

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UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 4:28:28 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

So, it appears Ivanka had the right to purchase the Beatles-related apartment for $14.5 million, but instead signed a rental agreement. Details are not immediately obvious.

And now—morning recess! Go forth and do Bob Dylan proud while we wait for things to resume.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 4:24:19 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Nice trivia.

Questioning turns to Ivanka Trump's penthouse at Trump Park Avenue.

Side trivia: The property was once an historic hotel where Bob Dylan reportedly introduced the Beatles to cannabis by smoking a joint with them. https://t.co/hv4EOSrZwJ
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 4:23:12 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Apparently, Ivanka can’t tell you if she got a good deal, because she didn’t look at what the Trump Organization said the apartments were worth.

Ivanka maintains she was not involved in the statements of financial condition so she has no idea how they were valued in those documents.
— Lisa Rubin (@lawofruby) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 4:21:58 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Ah. Both the apartments Ivanka purchased were purchased from the Trump Organization. Let’s see if they gave her a good deal.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 4:20:38 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Now that things have moved beyond 2016, Kise informs the court that he will no longer be objecting based on the statute of limitations. So I guess we can assume that everything to this point is covered by a blanket objection.

Questions coming up about Ivanka’s New York penthouse. I don’t know where this is going.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 4:18:49 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

When you’re getting your loans from the bespoke white glove side of the bank, they are “thrilled” to talk about giving you even more money.

Some five years later, Ivanka Trump apparently sought to increase the loan from Deutsche by $50 million, an email suggests.

Vrablic wrote to Ivanka Trump on Feb. 11, 2016:

“I spoke to the credit team on the $50mm request and we are thrilled to consider it for you.”
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 4:15:58 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

In negotiations, Ivanka marked up Deutsche Bank’s insistence on $3B net worth and dropped it to $2B. But it still seems that the statement of financial condition went out with the $4B claim.

More objections around this testimony from Trump’s team. This is easy to understand because what we’re getting today guts everything Trump said on Monday.

Kise is now objecting that Ivanka has not been questioned about the three corporate entities that afforded the AG jurisdiction; Engoron says “it’s an interesting question.” Solomon is getting exercised; she was involved, from top to bottom in the negotiation and execution of this…
— Lisa Rubin (@lawofruby) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 4:11:36 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

And here’s why Habba didn’t want that email introduced—other officers of the Trump Organization spoke up to say the numbers they had provided Deutsche Bank were lies.

Trump Org's Jason Greenblatt replied *four minutes later*, stating that "the net worth covenants and DJT indebtedness limitations would seem to be a problem?"

That covenant obligated Trump to maintain $3B net worth, which NYAG says he didn't have in 2011. The SFC claimed he did.
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 4:09:19 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

A series of flaps with Trump’s legal team.

First, Alina Habba objects to Solomon showing an email in which Ivanka tells Trump Organization CFO Allen Weisselberg that “it doesn't get any better” than the deal they are being offered from Deutsche Bank. According to Habba, the email was never sent.

Solomon says the email was sent. Habba says it wasn’t.

State attorney Kevin Wallace, who led the questioning of Donald Trump on Monday, interjects that this is a document that was introduced by the defense. So that was fun.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 4:03:12 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

This 2011 statement is one that Engoron found to be fraudulent in the pre-trial phase of this case.

Prosecutor shows Donald Trump's June 2011 statement on financials:

Net worth: $4.2 billion

Prosecutor: "Were you aware" of the claims of more than 4 billion in worth?

Ivanka: "no"
— Scott MacFarlane (@MacFarlaneNews) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 4:01:23 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

In addition to that $3B in wealth—excluding brand value—Trump also had to guarantee that he had assets on hand to completely cover the principal and interest of the loan. For that, he got the money at the prime rate.

Heck of a deal, if you don’t mind lying.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:57:55 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Just because Ivanka is a calmer witness doesn’t make this evidence any less damning.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:57:20 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

During his testimony, Donald Trump repeatedly maintained that it didn’t matter how his properties were valued because there was a nearly limitless in his brand. Turns out, all the brand talk doesn’t matter at all. “Excluding” would be the keyword in this deal. Also, $3B is well above estimates of Trump’s wealth at that time.

Ivanka views a proposal with the following Covenant:

“Guarantor shall maintain a Minimum Net Worth of $3.0 billion excluding any value related to the Guarantor’s brand value.”

Both the NYAG's estimate of Trump's net worth placed it lower in 2011.
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:54:32 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

It’s easy to see why James named Ivanka as a defendant. However, because she didn’t return to a position at the Trump Organization after leaving the White House, it wouldn’t have been possible to use these deals in a case against Ivanka.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:52:32 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

“Project Eagle.”

Vrablic later replied to Ivanka in an email bearing the subject line "Outline and Due Diligence Items - Project Eagle."

"As we discussed, please find attached our Summary of Terms for the proposed acquisition of Doral Resort."
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:50:08 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

And now we’ve moved to the point, one month later, where Ivanka — the captain of the Doral redevelopment — has arranged a meeting with Rosemary Vrablic and Dominic Scalzi of the private wealth management group and days later, received a term sheet and a request for more…
— Lisa Rubin (@lawofruby) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:49:11 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Kise continues to object on the basis that these memos and emails are from 2011 and beyond the statute of limitations. He accuses Engoron of giving the state “extraordinary latitude” in presenting their case.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:47:14 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

What we’ve seen so far is that three banks, including Deutsche Bank, turned down financing for Doral. In fact, they turned it down before even getting far into negotiations. And it seems that those banks had Trump’s financial statements.

But then Rosemary Vrablic at the special section of Deutsche for ultra-wealthy clients made the deal after a nudge from Jared and Ivanka and after Trump sent in a set of guarantees about his personal wealth and liquid assets. In other words: It was all heavily dependent on the statement of financial condition that Trump testified didn’t matter.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:40:54 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Even Deutsche Bank turned down the deal on the first pass.

That is, in fact, where we are headed. We are now looking at a November 2011 email from Ivanka to Richard Byrne of Deutsche Bank about obtaining financing for Doral, conversations Ivanka described as “high level” and that “didn’t go anywhere.”
— Lisa Rubin (@lawofruby) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:39:40 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

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UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:37:55 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Kise raises an objection, and Lisa Rubin explains Solomon’s apparent strategy here. The state is running through a series of failed attempts to secure financing at Doral to make it clear how important the eventual deal with Deutsche Bank was. Not only did that deal save Trump a huge amount of interest, but the whole project might not have been possible without it.

Kise is objecting to these questions on relevant grounds. The implication, of course, of reviewing these kinds of emails with other prospective lenders is that the Trumps could not obtain a loan for Doral on standard terms for a commercial real estate project.
— Lisa Rubin (@lawofruby) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:34:35 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Solomon moves on to another potential source for financing at Doral and starts showing documents related to Meridian Capital.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:32:58 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

That first “I don’t recall” seems to have been the start of a series regarding this one potential loan at Doral. Not sure if there is fire here, but things are starting to seem a bit smoky.

A rhythm is forming here

Prosecutor continues to ask Ivanka about documents/items from 2011. Ivanka says she doesn't recall them.. but makes repeated references to her deposition in case from last summer

She frequently answers: "You reminded me of (this)" during my deposition
— Scott MacFarlane (@MacFarlaneNews) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:29:54 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

That letter generated Ivanka’s first “I don’t recall.” It seems that the loan with the banker she sent it to was never completed.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:28:59 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

There’s been considerable discussion of Trump’s intention for Doral, which includes “repositioning it as a luxury property” and “acting as a stalking horse” for another bidder. And I’m going to confess that I don’t understand either what Trump was trying to do or what Solomon is trying to establish. Questioning continues.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:26:56 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Doral is back at the center of the questioning, which makes it seem like Solomon is moving the questions around to keep Ivanka from getting too comfortable. For the first time, he produces a document. It’s an email between Ivanka and a banker where she promises that Donald Trump would provide his financial guarantees through “hard mail.”

Trump does not like email, and this is probably another example of why: They’re too easy to discover.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:22:57 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

It’s hard to overestimate how important this connection to Vrablic became for Trump. Through the connection to Jared and Ivanka, he managed to get financing at just 2% (2%!) at a time when Deutshe’s rate for commercial loans was 8%. This was through the special section of the bank devoted to making extremely wealthy people happy. Which … yeah, how nice that super-rich people get an enormously better rate.

Questioning now turns to Deutsche Bank.

According to the lawsuit, her husband Jared Kushner arranged the initial meeting with the Deutsche’s managing director Rosemary Vrablic and Donald Trump Jr.

She's being asked about Vrablic now.
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:20:21 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

It’s clear that Ivanka has watched her own 2022 deposition in preparing to testify today. But just to be sure she doesn’t cross herself up, her answer to several questions has been to just reference what she said in that deposition.

She’s intent on not saying anything that puts her at risk of contradicting her past testimony.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:16:20 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Getting down to business.

Questioning now turns to Deutsche Bank.

According to the lawsuit, her husband Jared Kushner arranged the initial meeting with the Deutsche’s managing director Rosemary Vrablic and Donald Trump Jr.

She's being asked about Vrablic now.
— Adam Klasfeld (@KlasfeldReports) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:15:42 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Other than being hard to hear, Ivanka seems both more comfortable on the stand and more willing to answer questions. She doesn't launch into rants about James, or shrug off everything by claiming she can’t remember. A world away from her brothers to this point.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:13:58 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Twice now Engoron has encouraged Ivanka to speak up. He inserts himself again to ask her to move closer to the microphone.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:13:06 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

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UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:10:32 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Solomon runs through a series of projects in which Ivanka was involved.

Previewing lines of testimony to come, Ivanka explained that she spent “an enormous amount” of time on two projects in particular: Doral and the Old Post Office loan.
— Lisa Rubin (@lawofruby) November 8, 2023

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:07:18 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Ivanka is being questioned by state’s attorney Louis Solomon. First questions are just personal information, questions about her education, and questions about her positions at the Trump Organization as well as her other businesses.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:03:34 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Ivanka goes straight to the witness stand and is sworn in. Here we go.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:02:22 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Ivanka is not sitting at the defense table. As a “third party witness,” she’s not a defendant and was called by prosecutors.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 3:01:14 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

Ivanka and Team Trump just walked in. Folks are getting settled and getting their laptops out. Alina Habba’s laptop has a huge ad for her law firm covering the whole lid—you can no longer see that it’s a gaming laptop with multi-color LEDS glowing through the case.

Aww.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 2:53:50 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

To be clear: Donald Trump, Donald Trump Jr., and Eric Trump are all on the list of potential witnesses who could be called by the defense. But because the defense didn’t direct any questions at them following the state’s questioning, it seems unlikely the defense would risk putting them on the stand again.

Ivanka is not on the defense list of potential witnesses.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 2:52:20 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

As usual, the attorney general’s team arrives first. AG Letitia James takes up a position in the front row.

UPDATE: Wednesday, Nov 8, 2023 · 2:48:11 PM +00:00 · Mark Sumner

When the state says it has completed its case, expect a flurry of motions from Trump’s side of the aisle, including a motion to dismiss. Lead attorney Chris Kise may also move for a mistrial, which should be interesting.