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The United States Marine Corps made the news twice this week. First there was the international scandal in which four Marines stationed in Afghanistan came under suspicion of pissing on the dead bodies of their enemies, who, it seems, were Afghans fighting a foreign invader in Afghanistan.

And now a former US Marine who also served in Afghanistan has been charged with killing four homeless men in Orange county, CA with a knife. So among the questions this case raises is: Where exactly did he learn to kill with a knife? I'll wager one answer; The United States Marine Corps.

I'll admit that I don't think it necessarily needs a lot of training. While physically and psychologically harder than killing with a gun, I still think pretty much anybody could do it given the right circumstances. Anyway I think I could. I know technically what needs to be done. I know if you slit someone's throat, they will die. I know that if you stab them in the heart or other vital organs, they will die. I know that if you stab them in enough places period, they will die, and this is apparently how these homeless men were killed.

Whether I could mentally bring myself to take another person's life, that is a different question. I'm pretty sure I could in defense of my own life or someone I loved. I like to think I can in defense of an innocent about to fall prey to the murderous intentions of another. I hope never because my government told me they wanted to make their country communist or Islamic or whatever.

I have in fact "been trained" to kill with my bare hands, which is to say I got as far as a green belt in karate. And I have been trained to kill with a firearm, at least I was trained how to shoot a rifle. That was in the Wash U. ROTC Army rifle range in the engineering building attic. I was not in ROTC, I was a campus radical but the kind sergeant allowed me and a girlfriend to shoot there and he trained us. I attained Marksmen status, but Vivian was the best. She beat all the ROTC cadets, much to their chagrin, but I digress.

I can say that I was "trained" on how to not kill with a knife. This was after I got out of jail for protesting the war in 1970 and was paroled to New Jersey. He was a Vietnam vet, ex-special forces type. He lived in the woods near Vineland, NJ. He hunted his own meat. He knew too much about killing and he liked to live alone. In spite of this, we became friends. He taught me this rather humane knife fighting technique, which I will now pass on to you, for what its worth. He suggested you go for a horizontal slash across the forehead. He said it would make a nasty cut, but there was little chance of inflicting a lethal wound because of the bone behind it, and the profuse bleeding into your opponents eyes would likely put a quick end to the fight.

Anyway given the relatively limited sources for extended training in how to kill with a knife, I'm willing to bet that this OC serial killer, like so many before him, was trained to kill by our government.

More to the point: Where did he learn to piss on human life like that? Again, I'm willing to wager, the United States Marine Corps. After all, that's what they do. They take ordinary human beings and they turn them into serial killers. They also teach them to kill people they don't even know and they teach them to kill for the most insane reasons.

And that's the real trick of military training because, frankly, the actual techniques of killing with a knife, much less with a gun, ain't that hard, I mean, its not like killing with rocket science. Getting young people to kill people they don't even know on command, that's a whole 'noher matter because humans don't normally operate that way. There's a not so well publicize aspect of the military sciences that addresses this problem. It is called killology. From the Wikipedia article:

Grossman's theory, based on the World War II research of S.L.A. Marshall, is that most of the population deeply resists killing another human...

As a result of Marshall's work, modern military training was modified to attempt to override this instinct, by:

    using man-shaped targets instead of bullseye targets in marksmanship practice
    practicing and drilling how soldiers would actually fight
    dispersing responsibility for the killing throughout the group
    displacing responsibility for the killing onto an authority figure, i.e., the commanding officer and the military hierarchy (See the Milgram experiment)

By the time of the United States involvement in the Vietnam War, says Grossman, 90% of U.S. soldiers would fire their weapons at other people.

In this powerful 10 minute talk, Ryan Endicott relates how our Marines are brutalized and dehumanized in today's US military:

Meet Scott Camil












Scott Camil was a US Marine who served two tours in Vietnam. In the course of making Vietnam: American Holocaust, he became a friend of mine. I won't use the well worn phrase "highly decorated." Scott has a WikiPedia page, so I can just go ahead and list them:

He served with the Marines from 1965 to 1969, earning two Purple Hearts, Combat Action Ribbon, two Presidential Unit Citations, Good Conduct Medal, National Defense Service Medal, Vietnam Service Medal with three stars, Vietnam Cross of Gallantry with Silver Star, Vietnam Cross of Gallantry with Palm Leaf, and Vietnam Campaign Medal during two tours in Vietnam. With Charlie Company, 1st Battalion, 1st Marines, 1st Marine Division, he acted as a forward observer for artillery. He was a sergeant when honorably discharged.
He was also a serial killer that liked to kill with a knife. He described one such murder in my documentary [transcript] What follows is from his 1971 Winter Soldier testimony:
Another time I had a friend of mind killed and I was very upset and I asked this Vietnamese for his ID card and he says "cum beck" which means 'I don't understand' in Vietnamese and he just pissed me off so I pulled out my knife and I killed him and it didn't bother me at all. I just called it in and I said "One VC killed." and they said "How do you know he's a VC?" and I said "because he's dead" and they laughed and said "okay" you know.
He also described one of the "fun" things he participated in as a forward artillery spotter:
The calling in of artillery for games, the way it was worked would be the mortar forward observers would pick out certain houses in villages, friendly villages, and the mortar forward observers would call in mortars until they destroyed that house and then the artillery forward observer would call in artillery until he destroyed another house and whoever used the least amount of artillery, they won. And when we got back someone would have to buy someone else beers.
And he graphically described the murderous culture our government created in Vietnam:
And It got to be where it was like someone says okay "You come stay on my farm and you can go hunting everyday for free and I'll give you all the ammo you want and you can hunt and there's no limit and you can go and all go out together and just hunt." It was like a hunting trip.  The more people we killed the happier our officers were, you know. It got to be like a game. The object was to see who could kill the most people and the different ways you could prove how many people you had killed would be like cutting off ears. Now if you brought back someone's ears, pretty likely you'd have to kill them to get them. And people would, whoever had the most ears they would get the most beers. You'd trade your ears for beers. And it got to be like a game.
In Afghanistan, American soldiers collect fingers, not ears.

There were hundreds of My Lais that never made the newspapers, Scott Camil described one he was involved in this way:

In Operation Stone we were sitting up on the rail road trestle with a river on each side. There's another company behind each river. And like the people were running around inside. And we were just shooting them and the newspaper said Operation Stone like World War Two movie. We just sat up there and wiped them out, women, children, everything. Two hundred nine-one of them
Rape was common the the treatment of women disgusting. Scott relates:
I saw one case where a woman was shot by a sniper, one of our snipers. When we got up to her she was asking for water. And the Lt. said to kill her. So he ripped off her clothes, they stabbed her in both breasts, they spread-eagled her and shoved an E- tool up her vagina, an entrenching tool, and she was still asking for water. And then they took that out and they used a tree limb and then she was shot.
Snipers are trained to kill individuals they are looking at. That is a special skill. The Marines accused of pissing on the dead Afghans are snipers. I don't know what the Marines taught the OC serial killer but I do know that as long as our government spends billions of dollars taking earnest young men, and now women, and turning them into serial killers, this problem will continue to haunt us. What goes around, comes around.

Scott is doing much better these days. After he left the Marine Corps, he joined Vietnam Veterans Against the War, became an anti-war activist and has been so for more that 40 years. He is currently the president of the Gainsville, FL chapter of Veterans for Peace. This is an interview I did with him at the Winter Solider: Iraq and Afghanistan hearing held by Iraq Veterans Against the War in 2008:

One of the people this ex-Marine in OC murdered was a homeless Vietnam vet. Now how sick is that? If I may be allowed the liberty of stereotyping this individual, I would guess he might have been in his mid 60's and he was homeless because that war left him with such demons that he couldn't live with other people, or hold down a job, and he didn't have a woods to hide in like my friend.

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Comment Preferences

  •  The essence of this entire dismal diary, (36+ / 0-)

    in your own words:

    I'll wager one answer
    I'm willing to bet
    Again, I'm willing to wager
    I don't know what the Marines taught the OC serial killer
    If I may be allowed the liberty of stereotyping this individual

    So much for your incredibly fact-free version of "truth."

    Take this fact-free, POS "diary" down.

    "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

    by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 01:45:07 PM PST

    •  The diarist couldn't even spell "Marine Corps" (13+ / 0-)

      It's amazing how much some people think they know about something they don't even know how to spell.

      PROUD to be a Democrat!

      by leevank on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 01:51:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Now I can (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fcvaguy, David Kroning II, Sandino

        Thanks

        Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

        by Clay Claiborne on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 01:57:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Good for you, bucko. (21+ / 0-)

          Maybe you should have researched some actual facts about the branch of the armed services against which you make your blatantly inflated, disingenuous and self-righteous assertions before you posted this laughable, name-dropping, self-glorifying, shallow, propagandistic, demonizing, childish, and badly written screed.

          Diaries like this give this site a bad name. DELETE.

          "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

          by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:51:17 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Way over the top. (3+ / 0-)

            Prove it.

            Obviously the diary hits a nerve. It seems pretty well sourced to me.

            •  Oh, jeeze (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sharoney, IndieGuy

              "Well sourced" and "hits a nerve?" So are all those hatesites about Jews. Meticulously sourced hate.

              Sunday mornings are more beautiful without Meet the Press.

              by deben on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 06:41:17 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Ridiculous. This has nothing to do with hate (4+ / 0-)

                site against Jews!  What a ridiculous comment. And you got an uprate?

                •  asdf (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sharoney, deben

                  It has to do with "meticulously sourced hate."

                  "If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.." - John F. Kennedy: Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961. We are the 99%.

                  by IndieGuy on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 09:43:27 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  It's hate meticulously sourced (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sharoney

                  Here's something you might endorse as well, given the criteria "well-sourced" and "strikes a nerve":

                  Dear Ms. Marcotte:

                  No one is born "gay" or "transgender."

                  These conditions arise as a result of faulty bonding and identification with the same-sex parent, starting in early life. They indicate deep-seated gender self-alienation (TG's cross-identify with an opposite-sex figure), and are preventable and treatable.

                  The writings of well-known figures like Chastity Bono, James Morris, and Richard Raskind confirm this pattern.

                  Psychiatrist Richard Fitzgibbons's articles "Gender Identity Disorder in Children" and "The Desire for a Sex Change" are instructive.

                  The Left has been lying to the public for decades, with false science and false argument. "Gays" are a manufactured "minority" used for political purposes.

                   The National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality has the real information (http://www.narth.com).

                  More and more Americans are learning the truth. GayScam, this fraud, will be ended. The laws will be adjusted accordingly.

                  --Sharon Kass Washington, D.C.

                  http://pandagon.net/...

                  Oh, and the target of the letter-writer's meticulously sourced hate?  A 7 year old trying to join the Girl Scouts.

                  Sunday mornings are more beautiful without Meet the Press.

                  by deben on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 11:59:20 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                    •  A hateful bunch, needless to say (0+ / 0-)

                      Obsessed with collecting evidence to justify their hate.

                      Haters makes me sick. Including haters of Marines. One of my sons is a Marine. Enlisted while two wars were going on, which took great courage. I know because I talked with him and made it clear that he would see combat and that as his dad, I vote no. The disparaging stereotyping of members of our military is not something any of us needs to submit to.

                      Just as I told you, rserven, that I would not stand for discrimination against transgender folks.

                      Sunday mornings are more beautiful without Meet the Press.

                      by deben on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 08:17:01 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

            •  Explain. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              erush1345, IndieGuy

              You prove it. You consider the conjecture that passes for "facts" sources?

              That says much more about you than me, Timaeus.

              I'm disappointed in you.

              "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

              by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 06:50:50 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  This diary has a lot of reliable testimony. (3+ / 0-)

                It's not just "conjecture."  You just can't stand hearing this stuff.

                I'm disappointed in YOU.

                •  You can see how many agree with you... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  VClib, IndieGuy

                  oops....there you are all by your lonesome...holding a sack of BS.

                  The longer I live, the clearer I perceive how unmatchable a compliment one pays when he says of a man "he has the courage to utter his convictions." Mark Twain

                  by Persiflage on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 07:56:01 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Its not about how many agree with him or (4+ / 0-)

                    me.

                    One could argue that many Americans are all right with destroying a country and killing hundreds of thousands of it's people, even if that country never attacked us, or maybe only because we wanted something they had.

                    It's about changing that mind set. It's about changing the idea that there was anything noble about what we did in Iran, Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Guatemala, El Salvador, Iraq and Afghanistan, or what we are toying again, with doing to people living in Iran.

                    Where is the outrage for the millions of victims of the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines?  

                    Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

                    by Clay Claiborne on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 08:49:25 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  One can argue anything. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Vetwife, Sharoney

                      I'm certain many people of many nations really don't care what goes on anywhere as long as they themselves aren't affected.  It's fine for you to take up the cause of protesting the horrors of war and the damage done.  Lot's of people here would jump on your bandwagon.   You then chose to denigrate and slander.
                      See where that got you?

                      You've got a real problem.  You're stupid.  On this site, that's fatal.  

                      The longer I live, the clearer I perceive how unmatchable a compliment one pays when he says of a man "he has the courage to utter his convictions." Mark Twain

                      by Persiflage on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 06:48:09 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                •  No, you'd just rather sign on to (6+ / 0-)

                  a wholesale condemnation of an entire branch of the armed services, and all its members, from its earliest days on, because it fits your political frame.

                  Apparently you just can't see people as human beings--just cogs in your little paradigm, which this diary shares with you. Military BAD; antiwar signwavers GOOD.

                  Risible. I would have thought a Kossack was capable of more, shall we say, "nuanced" thinking, especially where living, breathing human beings are involved. Silly me.

                  "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

                  by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 07:56:13 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Total nonsense. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    David Kroning II

                    You obviously buy into the standard position that one American life is more important than hundreds of thousands of dead brown people.

                    Yeah, I'll leave it at that. That's exactly what you're doing.

                    It's immoral...and it's also un-American.

                    •  Interesting bit of hypocrisy there. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Sharoney
                      You obviously buy into the standard position that one American life is more important than hundreds of thousands of dead brown people.

                      Juxtapose that against your fauxtrage regarding hatred of Jews, above.

                      As you said:  And you got an uprate?

                      "If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.." - John F. Kennedy: Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961. We are the 99%.

                      by IndieGuy on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 09:46:24 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  For the record (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Vetwife

                      your entire comment is a lie.

                      "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

                      by Sharoney on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 11:17:06 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

            •  It's total bullshit, backed up by opinions. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sharoney, Vetwife

              "If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.." - John F. Kennedy: Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961. We are the 99%.

              by IndieGuy on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 09:42:31 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  You dishonor every man and woman who (22+ / 0-)

          serves this country. My cousin has left his wife and children for 4 tours in Afghanistan. He has been asked to work (yes, work, this is his career) in horrible conditions and carry out idiotic administrative decisions. He has built water wells so towns have clean water to drink.

          You seem to think every marine picks up a gun and just goes looking for people to kill. That is disgusting.  

          AND WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE IN 2011? -- Susan from 29

          by voracious on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 03:00:46 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  He doesn't dishonor them (14+ / 0-)

            He certainly disrespects them, but the main thing he dishonors is his own reputation.

            PROUD to be a Democrat!

            by leevank on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 03:24:37 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Your cousin has been dishonored by (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Timaeus, Sandino, David Kroning II

            the mission he is a part of in Afghanistan if he was in anyway a part of the US killing machine our country sent to Afghanistan to seek revenge for what 19 Arabs, 15 of them from Saudi Arabia are said to have done to us and have been there for a decade now. Many children have died at the hands of Americans there in that time.

            Oh, and there was that little matter of a pipeline, and other geo-political considerations like containing China, and then there was so much money to be made.

            Our foreign wars of the last half century have been little more that armed robbery writ large and there is no honor in participation in armed robbery or mass murder in the name of profit.

            Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

            by Clay Claiborne on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 09:00:05 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  We have youngsters playing video games and getting (4+ / 0-)

            pretty good at them.  Then we have them graduating high school, finding it difficult to land a paying job and volunteering for one the armed services.

            One of new specialties since 2001 is the armed drone operator and pilot.  It is now possible for a youngster (20 is a youngster to me) to pilot a drone and kill people from 10,000 miles away.  Not much different than playing a game except there are dead people, sometimes whole families  of dead people at the end of one of these exercizes.

            NPR had a show with a journalist who has been following this development.  The CIA which pioneered this drone force has about 30 of them. The Pentagon thru the various branches has about 5,700 plus and about 40,000 or so persons in data collection, technicans, armorers , and pilot/operators.  The services like these weapons because the casualties among the troops are virtually nil barring an accident in fueling or loading live weapons.

                The lack of moral concern and casual acceptance that it is right to attack people, total strangers who are not immediately threatening us, in other words no logical self defense role, and further invading airspace and living space of anybody who is much weaker than we are is a slide into an ethical abyss that mocks our democracy, our republic and our sense of what is right and just.

            Notice these robot warcraft do not fly into China or Russia or over Europe hunting for terrorists. Just the smaller defenseless countries.

            If you think that you and a bunch of other people can just show up on Wall St, camp out and have any effect whatsoever.... well, you will be run off in 20 minutes., you will leave town having wasted your effort 6/18/11.

            by BeeDeeS on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 09:29:20 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  BDS - all US military drone pilots (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ER Doc, IndieGuy, Sharoney

              are officers and fully trained airplane pilots so none of them is 20 years old. I have friends who were very senior department of defense officials and I know they are looking at allowing enlisted men and women to become drone pilots, but it has not yet happened. What we found out in Vietnam was that some of the best helicopter pilots were 19-20 and we put in place a helicopter pilot Warrant Officer program to give them that opportunity. You are right that exceptional eye hand coordination is often found in teenagers. However, I think the next crop of drone pilots will be mid level NCOs who have the maturity to be given the controls of an armed drone. Drones have become a very important part of our military, used mostly for surveillance, some times armed, but always keeping our men and women out of harms way. In places like the tribal areas of Pakistan there is no other way to locate the terrorists who are there.

              "let's talk about that"

              by VClib on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 09:54:54 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Lies. And apologies for war crimes. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sandino, David Kroning II

                You're getting close to HOS for me.  Naturally you say nothing about the civilians in CIA who are doing most of this.

                VClib, the big warmonger.

                •  Tim - I would be surprised if the CIA (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  IndieGuy, Sharoney

                  is using teenagers. That would be out of character for them, but I don't know so I made no comment about the CIA. I do know what the uniformed services are doing so I provided some information to BDS who thought the drone pilots were teenagers. Maybe BDS has some information and I could learn something as well.

                  If someone agrees with President Obama and the Sec of Defense regarding the use of drones that is worth a donut? Really?

                  "let's talk about that"

                  by VClib on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 10:32:50 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  There is no reason to deny the 20 year olds, men (0+ / 0-)

                or women to become drone pilots. The reaction times are a big deal, and will be a bigger deal as the drone technology grows to include interceptor  drones to shoot down the other sides' drones! Then younger pilot/operators are better suited for these missions with the challenges coming up.

                The younger quicker, (and in reaction time the women about 5 feet tall are the quickest of the quick) in reaction time and the gamers are at a premium. That is a little bit away, but the relevant part of this is the overwhelming majority of drones, over 99% are being used by the military and their intelligence services and the CIA has less than 1%.

                I believe a permanent war with drones or other stealth killer technology  is breaking our form of government, is making the fascination with earning $$$ billions and corruptly influencing politics to grow the service and the war mentality as the end all and be all which it is today. i Causing us a great harm and ultimately will get us  a massive blowback.  Drones are one aspect of predatory war with a parasitic form of capitalism encouraged that profits from war and uses it to further itself.

                How can it not?   That is embedded in this diary and those being wilfully obtuse, eyes fixed in place,
                 fixed straight ahead and brooking no analysis that isn't jingoism and blind obedience don't even want to discuss it.  A la Ms #ID 76.

                If you think that you and a bunch of other people can just show up on Wall St, camp out and have any effect whatsoever.... well, you will be run off in 20 minutes., you will leave town having wasted your effort 6/18/11.

                by BeeDeeS on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 10:38:35 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Now if you only realized that the spelling ... (8+ / 0-)

          was the LEAST of the problems with this POS diary!

          PROUD to be a Democrat!

          by leevank on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 03:05:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Clay - this diary is an embarrassment (13+ / 0-)

          The United States Marine Corp is the finest large unit fighting force in the world. This diary disparaging the Marines is disgusting. Please take it down. It is an embarrassment.

          VClib USA 1969-1975

          "let's talk about that"

          by VClib on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 03:30:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  typo - Marine Corps (0+ / 0-)

            "let's talk about that"

            by VClib on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 03:32:40 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I'm only repeating what some Marines said. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Timaeus, Sandino, David Kroning II

            It may be stuff you'd rather not hear about, but I'm convinced that both that I cited in this dairy are telling the truth.

            In both cases I provide video testimony to what some US Marines did in two wars. Most importantly, they indicate that this type of conduct was tolerated and even encouraged by the U.S. Marine officers.

            And there is a lot more were that came from. It would be no problem to do a  new diary of this sort of material every day for weeks.

            Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

            by Clay Claiborne on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 09:07:16 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  well this one was a big hit with this community (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sharoney

              Maybe next time you could get 50 donuts and set a new personal record.

              "let's talk about that"

              by VClib on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 10:12:46 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Many people in America have said... (0+ / 0-)

                unpopular things.  Yet...they were still right.

                I wonder if there were blogs in the 1850s how many donuts you would have given to an Abolitionist blogger?

                Or, how many donuts would you have given someone who spoke out against the anti-German harassment during WWII...it was quite popular you know and promoted by the US government.

                The way this person here has been treated by this community does not surprise me, but he simply doesn't deserve it.

                You're wrong and I think deep down you know it.

                •  David, here at DKOS we honor veterans (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Vetwife, mimi, IndieGuy, Sharoney

                  This site was founded by an Army veteran who is proud of his service to our country, and respects our veterans and men and women in uniform. Anyone can be passionately opposed to any war, past or present, and find thousands of people here who will support their view and nearly everyone will respect their opinion, even if they don't agree. And we all know that some Americans in uniform have performed criminal acts and war crimes. However, we will not tolerate blanket statements such as all Marines who served in combat are "serial killers". Here at DKOS we respect all veterans and honor their service. We provide emotional, financial and material support for our fellow Americans who serve us today, particularly those in combat theaters. Some of the most passionate critics of our current conflicts are the most active members of our DKOS community in organizing support for our troops in the field. We honor our men and women who are veterans and those who serve today. That is a core community value here.

                  "let's talk about that"

                  by VClib on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 08:00:36 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yet, I am a veteran... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    mimi

                    and some here fail to honor my right to speak out against what I've seen with my own eyes and experienced with my own mind.

                    I don't think what you mean "honor" I do believe you mean "adulate."

                    These are two different things.

                    •  David - you can write whatever you want (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      IndieGuy, Sharoney

                      What people react negatively to are blanket statements that tarnish all who serve. It was calling all Marines who have served in combat "serial killers" that put the diary over the top. That was unacceptable.

                      "let's talk about that"

                      by VClib on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 09:20:02 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Right, but it isn't the core mission to be an (0+ / 0-)

                    apologist for the current mission and actual practice of the military, along with the government for the past forty to fifty years.  The idea that discussing the actual practice as opposed to parades, celebrations on military related holidays, benefits and perks is all we do.

                    We memorialize the fallen, the recent and the ones we hear about.   We do very little of anything else connected with the war. It is a low interest item here.

                    we allow  shocking things to pass or avoid discussing incentives given to encourage more of the same  activity, keeping the analysis confined to peripheral issues....in short not talking as if this were a "forbidden subject" and leave the business of war alone as business as usual.

                    When was the last time we had an Afghani or an Iraqi commenting or posting who still lives in the country and has lost family due to actions by the USA in conducting operations where they live?  There are millions of them.   How many have we had telling us about what happened from their perspective?  The irony for me is it is the families of our own active duty people who are most concerned and also see the possible downsides for everyone who comment the most trenchantly.  Others are just not that connected or interested with of course  a few heroic exceptions.

                    If you think that you and a bunch of other people can just show up on Wall St, camp out and have any effect whatsoever.... well, you will be run off in 20 minutes., you will leave town having wasted your effort 6/18/11.

                    by BeeDeeS on Tue Jan 17, 2012 at 12:30:29 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Except, this diarist is wrong. (0+ / 0-)

                  The unpopularity of this diary has nothing to do with his facts, since he hasn't presented any.  It has to do with his opinions, which just happen to be garbage.

                  "If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.." - John F. Kennedy: Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961. We are the 99%.

                  by IndieGuy on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 09:51:12 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Clay - I was there, it was a war, shit happens (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Vetwife, Sharoney

              That is no reason to disparage all the brave Marines who have fought in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Our Marines are the finest infantry force in the world and deserve the respect of every American. When our nation called, you didn't answer. How dare you demean the brave soldiers and Marines who did. You make me sick.

              VClib USA 1969-1975

              "let's talk about that"

              by VClib on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 10:19:53 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  When my nation called, I refused. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mimi, BeeDeeS, David Kroning II

                So did Muhammad Ali and thousand of others. That was the most honorable position.

                I see no honor in going to Vietnam to kill people because your government said the "damn gooks" needed to be killed, and used those terms in training.

                I see no honor in being part of a force that threw its POWs out of helicopters and laughed.

                Do you really think every warrior army who has ever fought in every war is honorable? Do you think figthing for the Confederacy was honorable even though they were traitors to the nation and fighting to preserve slavery? Do you think they were honorable when they regularly killed black soliders rather than take them prisoner?

                Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

                by Clay Claiborne on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 07:47:50 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  How very special that must make you feel. (0+ / 0-)
                  When my nation called, I refused.

                  "If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.." - John F. Kennedy: Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961. We are the 99%.

                  by IndieGuy on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 09:53:47 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Revisionism is fun! (0+ / 0-)
              I'm only repeating what some Marines said. (3+ / 0-)
              It may be stuff you'd rather not hear about, but I'm convinced that both that I cited in this dairy are telling the truth.

              In both cases I provide video testimony to what some US Marines did in two wars.

              So are you backing off from your blanket calumny of all Marines as "serial killers" using your extra-speshul personally invented definition of that term?

              Weasel words now don't excuse your diary.

              "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

              by Sharoney on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 12:30:20 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You mis-quote me. (3+ / 0-)

                I never said all Marines are serial killers, I said the Marine Corps trains and creates serial killers.

                Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

                by Clay Claiborne on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 03:22:44 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Parsing is fun, too. (0+ / 0-)

                  More weasel words.

                  "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

                  by Sharoney on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 10:45:25 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Strafe the town and kill the people (0+ / 0-)

                    Do you know this song? Not as well known as the Marine Corps hymn, I'll grant you, still I understand its been sung by our soldiers in the field for more than a half century.

                    Strafe the town and kill the people
                    Drop your napalm in the square,
                    Take off early Sunday morning
                    Catch them while they're still at pray

                    Drop some candy to the orphans,
                    And as the kiddies gather 'round.
                    Use your twenty-millimeter,
                    To mow the little bastards down.

                    I've got recordings of US soliders, army or marine, I'd have to check, singing this in Vietnam and decades later in Iraq.

                    But I understand it first orginated in the Korea War. Would you know of a source for that? I'd like to get a recording of it being sung there also.

                    I know that will be unlikely seeing that recording devices were very rare in the early '50s. Even the Vietnam recording was a lucky find. A solider had access to a reel-to-reel recorder and sent tapes to his son and the son kept them. If you like, I can post it here. The Iraq one can be found in the documentary "Ground Truths" which I'm sure you would also demand be deleted.

                    Please stop trying to hide the realities of war, and those organizations responsible for perpetrating them like the United States Marine Corps.

                     

                    Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

                    by Clay Claiborne on Tue Jan 17, 2012 at 10:44:12 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  OK, you have internalized the job of professional (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    genethefiend, Clay Claiborne

                    killer as an entirely honorable and acceptable enterprise. You defend it passionately and intensely as the most American or natural thing in the world. It doesn't matter what uniform is covering it up. It is still what it is. You believe a USMC uniform is somehow special because it doesn't do the same things in essence a USN or USAF or Green Army or SAS or Republican Guard or Gurkhas or French Foreign Legion does?  You don't know or choose not to know what they all do.

                    You want parse words?  We have after Vietnam a volunteer, professional army because an all conscript army coming out of a democratic tradition is just too difficult to keep disciplined for wet work and unjustifiable homicides. And the powers that be know it and don't want the risks of massive rebellions and uprisings.  They take 1/2 of 1% of the population and they use them any way they, the leadership sees fit.

                    We, the actual persons confronting this have choices for now. Some of us in the services as lifers are slated to repeat this theme of doing the dirty work that any conscious ethical person given forewarning and  a clear choice would refuse over and over.

                    Parse it any way you want.  It is still glorifying something this country was founded to get away from and oppose as inimical to a free and decent people.

                    If you think that you and a bunch of other people can just show up on Wall St, camp out and have any effect whatsoever.... well, you will be run off in 20 minutes., you will leave town having wasted your effort 6/18/11.

                    by BeeDeeS on Tue Jan 17, 2012 at 01:06:52 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

      •  A typo doesn't invalidate the solid record (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        David Kroning II, Sandino

        in this diary.

        Look, my father and his brothers were Marines in WWII and I have the greatest respect for them. I think they all were completely honorable and courageous.

        But I also think there has been a great degradation in the U.S. military services since the war in Vietnam.

        Facts are facts.

        •  That's not what we're arguing. (2+ / 1-)
          Recommended by:
          VClib, IndieGuy
          Hidden by:
          BeeDeeS

          This asshole diarist, inbetween bragging about his own mad killing skillz, called Marines "serial killers."

          So you endorse that?

          If so, SHAME ON YOU.

          "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

          by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 06:53:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The diarist is an older guy with good (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BeeDeeS, Sandino, David Kroning II

            credentials. I think he's doing his best to tell what he thinks is the truth. I respect it.

            And of course Marines are killers. That's the whole point.

            Sometimes that is legal.  Sometimes it is not.

            You don't want to face the truth that often it IS NOT.

            •  You know nothing about me (3+ / 0-)

              other than what I said.

              But nice try, Mr. Mind Reader.

              And yes, the military--all of them--are trained to kill. That's what a soldier does.

              Take issue with the policies. Not with the soldiers as a group. that's just cowardly and craven, not to mention inaccurate.

              Unless of course, it's just TOO EASY.

              "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

              by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 07:35:09 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Did you actually read all the links and view (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sandino

                all the videos in the diary? Be true.

                •  I did. Did you read ALL the comments? (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Vetwife, VClib, IndieGuy

                  Including the ones from family members of people who served?

                  Do you know anything about military culture? Military history? Did you serve? Did anyone in your family?

                  Do you have a clue at all? Or are you just pulling comments out of your ass?

                  "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

                  by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 07:58:24 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Are you seriously suggesting I shouldn't (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Timaeus, Sandino, David Kroning II

                    point out that the US military killed millions of people in Vietnam, including hundreds of thousands of children because the families of those that served might be offended?

                    What do you say to the family of this Vietnamese child? Tough shit? Or are you demanding that the US pay compensation and clean up the remaining Agent Orange in Vietnam.

                    What about Fallujah, Iraq, because a whole new crop of deformed babies is growing up there in the wake of the Marine's destruction of that city of three hundred thousand.

                    I don't see anything to be proud of. I don't see anything honorable in that service.

                    Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

                    by Clay Claiborne on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 09:27:24 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  More straw men. (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      VClib, oldpunk, IndieGuy

                      I'm commenting on your DIARY, Einstein, not on war victims. Get a clue.

                      "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

                      by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 09:44:31 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Wow, you're really cold. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Sandino, David Kroning II
                      •  Now children deformed by Agent Orange are... (0+ / 0-)

                        STRAW MEN?

                        There are some things about America that make me ill...and the willful ignorance of its population is one of them.

                        •  Yes, they are. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Sharoney

                          And the diarist should be ashamed for using them as props in his little hate-fest.  If you can't see that, the lack is in your own soul.

                          "If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.." - John F. Kennedy: Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961. We are the 99%.

                          by IndieGuy on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 09:57:42 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  You are glorifying the service as though it is (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Clay Claiborne, David Kroning II

                        apart from and not connected with all those young men and women.  It is an organization that demands service to itself and its code and brooks nothing but obedience.  

                        The POTUS took those young people and forced them to go and do actions which in their entirety, in their specificality meant the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, civilians, family members of fighters, persons seen on an electronic screen or simply measured as "objectives" and destroyed at a distance. People who caused no harm or were not  a lethal threat to us or the army sent to do them, control them.

                              Where do you get off glorifying something that in too many sad instances right here and now creates crazy, broken people in America we didn't have before, puts a negative Karma that no amount of drugging or counselling can change and has no credibility anywhere including our own country?

                                  When one in 4 veterans comes back with combat stress,  with problems of conscience, insecurity, self doubt and self loathing might you think glorifying their
                        "service" is a cynical and self deluding exercise?  No questions or interest in that part? Just blind cheerleading? That is what this attempt to censor and suppress this story is about.  

                        There are service people who want to make a career out of it, want to do the military promotions and activities for years and years.  It is vastly different in peacetime and wartime.  There are some that are just thrill jockeys, love the excitement regardless of the downside. Most people want to have a normal life, raise a family do things that grow, nurture, make the world a bit better.
                        Killing strangers, or even people you might know, but are now in the way is what war is all about. It is not automatic to be cold blooded killers. It takes training and a special effort to get youngsters to pull the trigger or a switch when they might be somewhat aware of consequences.

                                    What did the Iraqis or Afghanis do that they deserve years of being hunted down and killed?  The Iraqi war was over in months, why was the sectarian battle allowed to go on for eight years in all its murderous fury?

                        Answer:

                              They opposed Exxon Mobil, Chevron,  Cheney's dreams of building Halliburton into the biggest parasite of the nest of parasites that is the military industrial enterprise in the USA, dripping with collusion and corruption beyond believeability.

                                 Glorifying the service as if it is perfectly fine to be working as hired guns for those very companies and ruthless cold blooded vulture capital is WRONG. You can't have it both ways.  Cheer on the  service, and raise a token opposition to some aspect of the effects, impacts of that service. We as a nation, people are suffering from the obsession with building more and more bases , more and more weapons, indulging in more and more predatory wars to have an excuse to tax and spend more to keep the false security juggernaut growing regardless of what it does or turns into.

                                 Breast thumping and cheering and being so proud of what  the service does as an abstraction  while mentioning nothing about the hundreds of thousands killed or the money drained from our schools, our country to pay for the orgy of death and destruction as a mindless exercise....yeah, that's what I am REALLY proud of. Not.

                        We spend a million dollars on a soldier, costs us about the same to kill an Iraqi.  That is what we have for our trillion spent, a million dollars spent for each Iraqi killed.  Couldn't we have spent one one hundredth of that and rebuilt Iraq as a showplace in the Middle East, and then spent several hundred billion restoring our own country?  Imagine the difference today.

                        I know, to you that flag and glory and the carnage it is based on is so much better.  Sacrifice and idolize and suffer here and it all makes so much better sense than what we could have had.  And now we are close to doing it all over yet again in Iran except with more casualties and a far higher cost.

                        If you think that you and a bunch of other people can just show up on Wall St, camp out and have any effect whatsoever.... well, you will be run off in 20 minutes., you will leave town having wasted your effort 6/18/11.

                        by BeeDeeS on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 11:30:54 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I "glorify" nothing. (0+ / 0-)

                          You are glorifying the service as though it is (0+ / 0-)
                          apart from and not connected with all those young men and women.

                          Straw man arguments aren't validated by sheer length.

                          And I call bullshit. You have it exactly backwards. I object to the besmirching of an entire branch of the service, and every one of its members, individually, as "serial killers."

                          That is what this attempt to censor and suppress this story is about.

                          I and others who think (with good reason) that this screed is a hit job have a right to express that opinion. So don't talk to me about censorship.

                          I know, to you that flag and glory and the carnage it is based on is so much better.

                          Prove it. Where have I EVER said that? Who is indulging in character assassination now, bucko?

                          Amazing how many mindreaders are infesting this diary.

                          "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

                          by Sharoney on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 11:46:04 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

            •  My definition of "serial killer" is very simple. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sandino, David Kroning II

              Anyone who kills more than once, anyone who establishes a pattern of killing, and especially practices killing and develops a mindset that make killing easy, is a serial killer in my book.

              No one gets a pass because of this reason or that.  

              Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

              by Clay Claiborne on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 09:13:03 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  From Wiki (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                IndieGuy, Sharoney
                A serial killer is typically defined as an individual who has murdered three or more people over a period of more than a month, with down time (a "cooling off period") between the murders, and whose motivation for killing is usually based on psychological gratification.

                USlegal.com

                Serial killer is a term describing a type of killer who kills a number of people over a long period of time. They are generally male and motivated by a variety of psychological urges, primarily power. The United States Bureau of Justice Statistics defines a serial killing as: "[involving] the killing of several victims in three or more separate events." They are distinguished from spree killers in that they have rest periods between killings.

                Not so interested in your book.

                Life is risky, politics is war, government is force and liberty is very expensive.

                by oldpunk on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 10:58:36 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  "Good credentials." (0+ / 0-)
              When my nation called, I refused.

              Yep.  

              "If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.." - John F. Kennedy: Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961. We are the 99%.

              by IndieGuy on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 09:55:25 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  You are wrong about the degradation (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Vetwife, VClib, IndieGuy, Sharoney

          in the quality of the military.  The military that we have today is one of the best educated and trained in our history.  I know because I served during in the first decade of the all-volunteer military.  

          The average man who served in the military during WWII and Korea only had a ninth grade education.  During WWII and Korea, having a year or two of college under one's belt pretty much assured that one would be sent to commissioned officer training.  Today, there are enlisted men and women who hold graduate degrees.  

          As far as to bad behavior being a relatively new thing: well, I had an enlightening conversation with the wife of a kind old WWII vet who used to live in the house behind my old house after he passed.  She told me that he suffered from horrible panic attacks and nightmares due to having been ordered to do some pretty horrible things to captured German officers by his commander.

          If we go back to the American Revolution, we find that our military broke just about every rule of engagement.  We engaged in guerrilla warfare and targeted officers.  Both of these practices were considered to be uncivilized.  We even "scalped" red coats.

          The problem with most military history is that it has been sanitized to remove the unsavory portions.  Warriors have always committed uncivilized acts.   The government-sanctioned taking of another person's life is an uncivilized act.

          •  And the American revolutionists set an example (5+ / 0-)

            by treating THEIR captives, British and Hessians decently even when Americans were abused by the British forces.

            Even when Washington got reports of torture and abuse of Americans held in British  prison ships in NY harbor, he refused to take reprisals.  He insisted on treating captives kindly.  It sent a message to their comrades and impressed the prisoners as to what the cause was the rebels were fighting for.

                      The whole point here being missed is the US had a reputation , mostly deserved for having a code of decency. What others do is not an excuse to sink to their level. That is the point here. However there is the matter of the volunteer army being turned conveniently into a mercenary army, and the problems that causes.  And that is only alluded to, not really expanded on in the diary.

            If you think that you and a bunch of other people can just show up on Wall St, camp out and have any effect whatsoever.... well, you will be run off in 20 minutes., you will leave town having wasted your effort 6/18/11.

            by BeeDeeS on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 09:41:04 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Your comment is very unfair. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      David Kroning II, Sandino

      It is NOT a fact-free diary.

    •  Amen, Sharoney. EOM (0+ / 0-)

      LBJ & Lady Bird, Sully Sullenberger, Molly Ivins, Barbara Jordan, Ann Richards, Drew Brees: Texas is No Bush League! -7.50,-5.59

      by BlackSheep1 on Fri Jan 20, 2012 at 11:46:42 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Clearing throat here......Don't expect a lot of (22+ / 0-)

    tips here.  Nowhere in this diary did you mention trauma,
    PTSD, traumatic brain injury, guilt,military family sufferings,or sacrafice.  Need I say more?  Get ready...you just ticked off a lot of vets and advocates with this diary.

    We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

    by Vetwife on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 01:56:48 PM PST

    •  trauma, PTSD, traumatic brain injury, guilt, (6+ / 0-)

      Aren't these all the result of the self same government policies that train our young people to be killers and then send them off to conquer foreign lands by killing people?

      Yes, I know there will be OUTRAGE because I speak of what must be kept secret, but I speak the truth.

      Besides, back when I was with my friend in the New Jersey woods, nobody called it PTSD.

      Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

      by Clay Claiborne on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:05:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  YOU TALKING TO ME ABOUT PTSD? (18+ / 0-)

        We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

        by Vetwife on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:11:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Then diary about those policies (15+ / 0-)

        and don't smear an honorable, ancient organization--or its members--that you obviously know NOTHING about.

        There's ignorance, and then there's wilful ignorance.

        Delete this POS.

        "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

        by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:21:10 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  trying to keep my distance emotionally here (12+ / 0-)

          to what the author has written and what is said in the comment thread,

          I do see in the diary another aspect. Of course the author could have just criticized the policies under which the US soldiers had or have to serve. Don't hundreds of authors here do so every day? I ask myself if that was the intention of his diary. I think he might have wanted to express something else.

          The author also speaks about what and how US soldiers are trained. I think he could have written about this sensitive issue in another fashion, knowing how difficult it is for combat veterans to face an issue like this by people, who haven't been trained and didn't go through combat and didn't have to deal with the guilt and monsters images those soldiers have to live with.

          But I think it should be ok to talk about it here on DailyKos.

          There are issues about how US soldiers are trained. The methods they use. One should be able to discuss it without trashing an author for trying to do so. There is nothing wrong with questioning training methods. It is something that deserves research and is a legitimate subject to talk about, Yes, the author could have written about it differently, and I think it may have lead to a better discussion, but he is apparently an artist and filmmaker and expresses himself the way he sees fit.

          The Winter Soldier film is a documentary. Do you discount the truth of what the soldiers testified to? You think a film like this shouldn't have been made? Because it throws the light on the tragedies those soldiers had to live through?

          I could make comparisons that would turn your stomach upside down, and so I won't make them, but I gently suggest to not only and exclusively trash this author.
          You can trash me for my support of the diary and author, if that helps. In my view, the author didn't trash any single US marine. But he listened to what US marine testified to and said and he tries to process what he saw and heard in the news. I would say that is respectable to say the least.

          I do understand why people are upset. That's one side to look at this diary, there are other sides as well, which are drowned in the uproar of the commentators. What you demand is that we look away and take situations and incidences as "a given" and demand them to be buried for the sake of not hurting our conscience and those of the Veterans, who have already been hurt through the actual incidents they had been involved in. I do understand that very well, and I have a lot of respect of mother nature, who graciously lets "grow grass over the worst atrocities and wounds" in time (there is wisdom in it, I think), but I also respect transparency and  people who don't deny the realities and speak up.

          IMO there is no reason to demand this diary to be deleted.

    •  Seven so far. (6+ / 0-)

      Wish I could counter, but spent mine on other trolls earlier.

      "This is about the human heart, and if that sounds corny, so be it." -- Keith Olbermann // Go ahead, buy my husband's art. I dare you. http://www.etsy.com/shop/Windthin?ref=ss_profile

      by allergywoman on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:56:39 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've used three in this diary. (9+ / 0-)

        I am blown away that this there are so many tips for this POS. I notice the tippers are pretty quiet in the comments though.

        AND WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE IN 2011? -- Susan from 29

        by voracious on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 03:05:58 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Shameful. (7+ / 0-)

          I would guess some people spent theirs on earlier trolls, too. We've had a bumper crop today, sadly.

          "This is about the human heart, and if that sounds corny, so be it." -- Keith Olbermann // Go ahead, buy my husband's art. I dare you. http://www.etsy.com/shop/Windthin?ref=ss_profile

          by allergywoman on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 03:10:18 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I just think if you are going to lay a tip and rec (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            allergywoman, Sharoney, IndieGuy

            on a diary like this you should defend it in the comments.

            Pretty quiet in here though.

            AND WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE IN 2011? -- Susan from 29

            by voracious on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 03:13:20 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I rec'ed it...because I'm an American... (7+ / 0-)

              and I believe in the 1st Amendment.

              You can be proud of your Marine Corps Grandfather...just as I can be proud of my Pacifist Quaker Grandfather who believed that he could also serve the nation without resorting or contributing to violence.

              Both Americans...both gave something to their country.  

              •  No one is dissing your grandfather or (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Vetwife, IndieGuy

                the tradition he so honorably upheld.

                And in the same way, no one should be praised for this POS.

                "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

                by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 07:01:55 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Oh BS...you would have been the first (0+ / 0-)

                  to call him a traitor.  Your line of thinking is so closed-minded and polluted by patriotism.  Read Stephen Ambrose's Citizen Soldier...a very adulatory book on young American men in WWII.  Even Ambrose demonstrates that US soldiers committed war crimes in that "noble war" particularly by killing Germans who had surrendered--for various reasons, including revenge and simply because they didn't want to deal with them.

                  Grow up...the US military is in the business of killing people and for most of the past 50 years it has been doing so in order to preserve access to oil and to keep in place brutal right-wing dictatorships.

                  If you find that "noble" then I would suggest a bit more reflection upon the meaning of nobility.

                  •  Wow. (0+ / 0-)

                    I'm close-minded?

                    You know nothing about me, pal. But you're mighty quick to sign onto the premise of this POS diary, and predict how I would act, because I don't effing agree with you.

                    Hilarious.

                    FYI, I read Ambrose's book. My MARINE CORPS FATHER recommended it to me.

                    And FYI my best friend in HS pulled a two-digit number for Nam and registered as a CO.

                    AND I HELPED HIM.

                    Chew on that. And enjoy your drama.

                    "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

                    by Sharoney on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 11:27:03 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Damn. David Kroning II and I are usually (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Claudius Bombarnac, Sandino

                at each other's throats, but I think he's right-on in this diary.

                I'm tipping and reccing this diary as a man who has a great number of military veterans in my heritage.  Two of my ancestors were officers under George Washington in the Continental Army.

                The U.S. military services have gone WAY downhill toward savagery and barbarism compared to Washington's day.

  •  Seriously, it's the "Corps" not the way (9+ / 0-)

    the diarist spelled it. You started off on the wrong foot then headed off into the weeds with this diary. Broad, opinionated strokes against an honorable institution.

    Occupy- Your Mind. - No better friend, no worse enemy.

    by Thousandwatts on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:00:09 PM PST

  •  Marine Gen. Smedley Butler said it all long ago nt (6+ / 0-)

    I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night, alive as you and me.

    by plankbob on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:02:00 PM PST

    •  I know that I am being nit picky, (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Vetwife, swampyankee, Sharoney, VClib

      but it is "Marine Corps," not "Marine Corp."  The Marine Corps are a component of the U.S. Navy.

      With that said, training young men and women do things that are not natural is a tough, but necessary job.  It takes quite a bit of effort to turn a group of individuals into a cohesive team that will fight to the last man or woman.  

      Contrary to your thesis, the military does not train young men and woman to urinate on corpses--they train young men and women to look after each other and make the enemy die for his/her cause!  The strain of being fired upon and watching their friends die is what causes them to do crazy things.

      •  I meant to reply to the diarist (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        VClib
      •  I know I'm being nitpicky, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        allergywoman, Persiflage

        but

        The Marine Corps are a component of the U.S. Navy.

        is incorrect. From Wikipedia:

        In the civilian leadership structure of the United States military, the Marine Corps is a component of the United States Department of the Navy, often working closely with U.S. naval forces for training, transportation, and logistic purposes; however, in the military leadership structure the Marine Corps is a separate branch.

        It's more than a semantic difference.

        "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

        by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:33:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  They Marine Corps is a component of the (4+ / 0-)

          Department of the Navy.  There are no Marine doctors, nurses, or corpsmen.  They are provided by the Navy.  While the Marines have the Commandant of the Marine Corps, he reports to the Secretary of Navy (i.e., there is no Department of the Marines Corps).  I spent five years in the Navy.  

          •  "Marine Corps," not "Marines Corps" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sharoney
          •  One thing that I would like to add is (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sandino

            that without its attachment to the Department of Navy, the Marine Corps loses what differentiates it from Army.  Marines are amphibious warriors with a long naval tradition.  Marines use naval terms such as "Aye Aye, Sir" to acknowledge orders.   There is no Marine Corps Academy.  Marine academy graduates are primarily Annapolis graduates.  Midshipmen can chose to serve with the Marine Corps instead of becoming a naval officer.  Many midshipmen who would have chosen to serve as Marine officers in the past now choose to serve as naval SEAL officers due to the elite status of being a SEAL (that's if they can hack BUDs).

            •  Whatever. (0+ / 0-)

              You're obviously speaking from a Navy perspective.

              Try reading some some military history.

              "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

              by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 07:04:33 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  There's nothing like spending time in (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sharoney, Sandino

                uniform to teach one about the structure and history of the military.  

                By the way, I served alongside many Marines from the Marine Cryptologic Support Battalion while serving with the Naval Security Group.

                •  And there's nothing like (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  marina, VClib

                  growing up with a lifelong Marine, attending events by his side, and hearing stories about the action he faced to learn about the proud traditions and actions of that service.

                  And thank you, BTW, for yours.

                  My father spoke fondly and often of the Navy servicemen who served beside him in the Marshalls. The friendly rivalry--and mutual respect--between both branches is well-documented.

                  "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

                  by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 07:39:58 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  And the Marines are (0+ / 0-)

            a separate branch of the armed services.

            Read what I posted again.

            "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

            by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 07:02:37 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That is part of the Department of the Navy (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sharoney, Sandino

              The Marines are not a standalone department of the military like the Navy, Army, and the Air Force (the Air Force was originally a corps within the Department of the Army).  They depend on the Navy for their budget, medical care, and transportation. For example, unlike the Army and the Air Force, there are no Marine medics, nurses, or doctors.  The battlefield medics who care for wounded Marines are Navy Corpsman.  There are naval ships that are dedicated to amphibious operations that are affectionately known as "gator freighters."  The Marine Corps insignia includes an anchor. When a Marine dies in battle, the letter is sent from the Department of the Navy, not the Department of the Marine Corps.  That difference is not insignificant.

              None of what I have said detracts from the fact that Marines have always been elite fighting men and women.  It takes a special kind of person to serve in the Marine Corps.

      •  You are wrong if you think the urination was crazy (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gffish, oldpunk, Sandino

        That was a sniper team.  They pick off the enemy, combatants, targets, whatever by stealth.  It is their job to hunt people.

        The video was a "trophy" video, for bragging rights in bars or  barracks or wherever.    Whatever  the story is,.  we don't even know if the people shot were "suspects", chance individuals or combatants.

        We also don't know if the release of the video was simple braggadocio  by some member of the combat sniper team, or by someone else deliberately calculated  to inflame a controversy over staying longer or  shorter period about the future stay or  withdrawal from Afghanistan.  We don't have any firm knowledge of the backstory about how this video was popularized and what time period it represents and why it is getting the traction it is right now.  

        We just don't know at this point.

        The snipers have time and patience in their activities.

        They are trained in a cool calm deliberate and professional manner to shoot and kill.  Nothing crazy about it at all.

        If you think that you and a bunch of other people can just show up on Wall St, camp out and have any effect whatsoever.... well, you will be run off in 20 minutes., you will leave town having wasted your effort 6/18/11.

        by BeeDeeS on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 05:20:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, but they were not trained to urinate on (0+ / 0-)

          people by the Marine Corps.  Snipers are prime targets during battle.  Snipers are also hunted by other snipers.  

          •  This is how they are trained (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Timaeus, Sandino, David Kroning II

            From the Winter Soldier testimony:

            I think that My Lais can still take place in Vietnam, but I think because of the My Lai exposure, it's going to be less likely. In terms of why, the whys involve a lot of things. In the first place probably the main thing is Army training, and I'm going to have John talk about this in a minute, but Army training is dehumanizing. The Army knows how to train soldiers, and so do the Marines, and so do the Navy. Most of you experienced basic training, and one of the things that happens in basic training is you don't get much sleep. When you don't get much sleep, you become an automaton. When you become an automaton, you begin to follow orders--the idea of killing and sticking bayonets into the model soldiers, the whole business of the gooks, the Vietnamese are inferior, which is constantly drummed into your heads. It's a kind of programming.

            So they may not be trained to urinate on people but they certainly are trained to be racists. In Vietnam, they were trained to kill gooks, in Iraq they were trained to kill hajis.

            Marine corps officers use this racist term.

            Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

            by Clay Claiborne on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 09:56:38 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  No. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sharoney

              No service member is trained to be a racist. Not the Army, Air Force, Navy or the Marines. Marines are the pointy end of the stick of American policy and they are trained for one purpose and only one purpose, to kill the enemy. The Marines aren’t sent in to negotiate, and in my opinion shouldn’t be sent in to build schools and hospitals. They are sent to seek out and kill as many of the enemy as they can find.

              To accomplish this unpleasant but sometimes necessary goal, the men and women of the military and especially the Marines are trained to see the enemy as not quite human, you may think that is racist but you would be wrong it is not racist but rather necessary because it aids in easing the incredible mental burden and anguish that often comes with killing another human being. Dehumanizing the enemy in war is unavoidable and necessary if we wish our military men and women to survive and achieve success.

              We sometimes forget the psychological cost to our men and women fighting for our country. There are epidemic Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome cases of our soldiers returning from Afghanistan and Iraq. Dealing with the stress of combat is like fighting a war within a war and we shouldn’t be shocked when a release of this nature occurs. This doesn’t mean we excuse the behaviour. But we don't vilify an entire branch of service either.

              So what kind of punishment - if any - should the Marines receive? I don’t know. In the act of urination they desecrated a dead body, apart from that they weren’t torturing people, so maybe they should be punished for being dumb enough to record it.

              Life is risky, politics is war, government is force and liberty is very expensive.

              by oldpunk on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 11:32:57 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  And nothing moral about it as well. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Clay Claiborne, Sandino

          Rick Perry said a day or two ago that they were just "kids" and it was terrible to criticize them as criminals.

        •  Whatever. They don't have a right to (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gffish, Sandino

          desecrate the dead, which is an ancient taboo, not to mention a clear-cut violation of U.S. military law, international law, and common sense.

          Hard to believe anybody would be so debased and degraded as to defend them for this war crime.

          •  No one is defending that, Timaeus. (4+ / 0-)

            The anger against the diarist has to do with his smearing AN ENTIRE GROUP OF PEOPLE who have put their lives on the line for more than two centuries because of the actions of a few.

            Hard to believe that anyone would be so debased and clueless as to defend that kind of shallow, reductionist spin.

            "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

            by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 07:43:12 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The Marine Corps can defend itself quite well. (5+ / 0-)

              They are investigating this incident and will come up with some logical sequence and address the  common article violations incurred.

              What criticism is launched here or the entire mission in Afghanistan  coming under critical review is not going to undermine America  or the Corps.

              The thrust of the diary is to ask what the real mission of the services is and has been in Afghanistan, Vietnam and elsewhere since WW 2.

              If that bothers you, refute it or tout the successes of the policy. How it has won hearts and minds for the USA.

              You want to carry on a counterattack on the mission of accountability and justification for the presence in these countries, to act as an occupying force demanding certain behaviors of people with no input?

              Go ahead, make that case.  If you can.  It is easier to protest, deliver up outrage and attack the diarist for his message.  To use the comment section to villify him.

              Did you know the killer of 4 homeless men in California just apprehended,  a 23 year old was a recently discharged Marine?  Did you know his father was also homeless recently, Did you know one of the men murdered was a homeless Vietnam Vet?  

              There is a tragedy here greater than the prosaic accounting of who was killed and how many and you want to shut down the discussion of how a force supposedly for defense has been turned into something many former veterans would be uncomfortable serving in today.

              You are hijacking the thread plain and simple.

              If you think that you and a bunch of other people can just show up on Wall St, camp out and have any effect whatsoever.... well, you will be run off in 20 minutes., you will leave town having wasted your effort 6/18/11.

              by BeeDeeS on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 09:02:37 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I heard the father say that his son (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Timaeus, Sandino

                was never the same after he returned from Iraq. So I think if you really want to know why these 4 homeless men were killed you have to know what happened to this Marine in Iraq.

                If you want to prevent this in the future you have to look at the things I am talking about, but you would rather disassociate the Marine Corps for any fault in this and sweep that connection under the rug.

                That's why this shit keeps happening.

                Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

                by Clay Claiborne on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 10:13:01 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  No, the thrust of this diary (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                VClib

                was the writer's attempt slander an entire branch of the service, its members and its tradition, in a badly-written attempt to make a point that has been made much more eloquently, and with NO self-aggrandization, by others.

                And to promote his damn book.

                That's my beef. I've not excused the actions of the pigs and others like them who dishonor the service and the uniform they were privileged to wear by desecrating the dead.

                I've not excused the dehumanizing of the enemy in the name of "toughening up" a young recruit. I've not excused racism as a tool for the same.

                I've not condemned COs. I had friends in high school and in college who hated the war, refused to serve, and served their country honorably in other ways.

                I've not glorified war. I protested against it, probably before half the self-righteous commenters applauding this POS diary were out of diapers.

                But I've been accused of every one of these things by people who just had to get their antiwar creds burnished by signing on to a diary that labels every single Marine a mass murderer. Congratulations! You've just given credence to every right-wing cliche about the left.

                This place used to be better than that. Not any more.

                This diary is an over-the top hatchet job, and I stand by that statement.

                "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

                by Sharoney on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 11:37:48 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Desecration of the dead of this nature (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            VClib

            doesn't meet the criteria for a war crime.

            Life is risky, politics is war, government is force and liberty is very expensive.

            by oldpunk on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 11:38:02 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  BDS - sniper teams (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Thousandwatts, Sharoney

          As you noted sniper teams look for specific targets, and are patient, so it's highly likely that the dead were armed combatants.

          The incident is regrettable, a PR nightmare, and shows a clear lack of leadership particularly by the NCO in charge of this sniper team, and his platoon leader. However, sniper teams work in a way that is often extremely stressful, frequently alone, isolated, and exposed at any time to overwhelming force by the enemy. This behavior is not excusable, but I understand why it happens.  I think most people who have been in extended combat operations have a deeper understanding of the reasons.

          VClib USA 1969-1975  

          "let's talk about that"

          by VClib on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 10:09:55 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  The last thing General Butler would (5+ / 0-)

      do is endorse this stinking diary.

      Sunday mornings are more beautiful without Meet the Press.

      by deben on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 03:29:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I am asking in a gentle way ...please (25+ / 0-)

    delete this diary.  We have many veterans on here and as an advocate....I am not quite ready to spend my Sunday afternoon reassuring them,  they are not mass murderers,   Please delete and consider the pain they relive every day.  This was much too graphic, IMO.

    We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

    by Vetwife on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:06:50 PM PST

  •  Out of the Million+ that served in Vietnam (16+ / 0-)

    you pick one guy, and his stories, to substantiate your "sordid truth?"  Or, fpur young men who, in a moment of really bad judgement, pee'd on some guys who likely moments before were trying to kill them.

    Did bad things happen there? Yes!  Do bad things always happen in war?  Yes!   Do you seem to have any personal experience in war?  No.  Do you appear to be a judgmental prick that paints with a really broad brush?  Yes.

    The longer I live, the clearer I perceive how unmatchable a compliment one pays when he says of a man "he has the courage to utter his convictions." Mark Twain

    by Persiflage on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:12:20 PM PST

  •  I take offense at the tone and weasel-words in... (21+ / 0-)

    ...this diary.

    You have every right to speak such nonsense and post it. As a Vietnam veteran, combat medic, and someone who knew and knows a few Marines, I CAN say there is some merit in what you present. But most of it (thus all) comes off as anti-military diatribe.

    There are "bad apples" in every organization. In organizations as egalitarian as the militaries, you are going to have the same ratios of "bad apples" as you would in the gen pop. There is nothing to be done about that. But for every scumbag who makes it through military training without being caught out as a nut-job, there are a hundred who go on to lead exemplary military and civilian lives, despite whatever their military experience has "taught them"

    "Wealthy the Spirit which knows its own flight. Stealthy the Hunter who slays his own fright. Blessed is the Traveler who journeys the length of the Light."

    by CanisMaximus on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:13:06 PM PST

  •  kent brockman, is that you? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CanisMaximus

    just miles from your doorstep, hundreds of men are given weapons and trained to kill. The government calls it the "army", but a more alarmist name would be -- "The Killbot Factory."

  •  Delete this diary. (14+ / 0-)

    Minority rights should never be subject to majority vote.

    by lostboyjim on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:22:44 PM PST

  •  I cannot believe this diary. (10+ / 0-)

    AND WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE IN 2011? -- Susan from 29

    by voracious on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:24:07 PM PST

  •  This diary is ugly, slanted bullshit. (18+ / 0-)

    Does war make men do terrible things at times? Of course. Eugene Sledge saw his fellow Marines on World War II Pacific battlefields do hideous things to the Japanese sometimes, but those were exceptions, not the rule. Combat soldiers see so many horrible sights, experience so many mind-breaking terrors, suffer such terrible grief, and get consumed by such fierce hatreds that their interior moral walls break down a lot of times. I've never been put in their situation, and I don't judge them. I've never seen a best friend that I loved torn to pieces in front of me. I've never heard a combat buddy shrieking in agony. I have no right to tell the people who have that their conduct must always be exemplary.

    BTW, the Marines have been there for this country since 1775. They have so often paid the ultimate price on our behalf. We need to remember that.

    Check out my new blog Romney the Liar right here.

    by Yosef 52 on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:25:18 PM PST

  •  Add my name to those that ask you to delete (27+ / 0-)

    this diary.

    I know you have the right to publish this and I debated hard with myself how to approach this one with a level head.

    And I came to the conclusion that you tackled a difficult topic with a cavalier attitude that I can't condone. Yeah, I know that's not hide-rate-able but I'll let kos or Meteor Blades deal with me later. I guess I'm shitting in your diary but boy, I think you just shit on the entire Military Community with this piece of crap.

    The irony is that I think you make some points that are actually worth discussing but you do it in such a horrid, egotistical way, taking no account for any of the things Vetwife mentions above, that I have a feeling a conversation isn't what you are looking for.

  •  Oh you killa you... (17+ / 0-)
    I have in fact "been trained" to kill with my bare hands, which is to say I got as far as a green belt in karate. And I have been trained to kill with a firearm, at least I was trained how to shoot a rifle. That was in the Wash U. ROTC Army rifle range in the engineering building attic. I was not in ROTC, I was a campus radical but the kind sergeant allowed me and a girlfriend to shoot there and he trained us. I attained Marksmen status, but Vivian was the best. She beat all the ROTC cadets, much to their chagrin, but I digress.

    Digress? Yes, you sure do...Delete this POS

    Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

    by EdMass on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:28:56 PM PST

  •  Just FYI (4+ / 0-)

    I have heard similar gruesome stories from veterans of Vietnam and other wars.
    War is the ugliest kind of hell.
    And the sooner we all agree on that fact, the sooner we will have peace.

    •  Everyone, everywhere agrees that war is hell (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CanisMaximus, marina

      but for some reason we aren't allowed peace.

      AND WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE IN 2011? -- Susan from 29

      by voracious on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:43:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not everybody. Sometimes war is a force that gives (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Clay Claiborne, David Kroning II

        us meaning as the book by Chris Hedges puts it.  The glorification of the Marine Corps for example is regardless of any single incident or war or time period; it is just a wonderful group that exists apart from time and place except for the fraternity it represented and for the many vets to whom it was the most important thing in their life or any part of their lives that they could be most proud of.

             That is a true statement of their feelings and for many,  
        deservedly so.  That espirit de corps, that fraternity or sorority now as the case may be is being called on to get them through some difficult times.

        This is a crucial fulcrum or tipping point in our history as a country. CanisMaximus  wrote:

        But every vet I know would do what they were asked to do again even knowing they would come out damaged either physically or mentally. Even knowing that they would not personally agree with either the reason or the outcome. They would do their duty.

        Wrong viewpoint!   The people volunteering as an entire class, walking out of a shop or a farm and impelled to volunteer, younger, older people in WW 2 knew there was a dramatic and obvious challenge. there was no debate and uncertainty any more.  The situation was obvious to practically every sentient being.  It wasn't a con, or deception that made them join, it was cause a critical worldwide definite cause and solution. The espirit
        de corps came naturally, as it has many times before.
        The difference now is the attempt to ignore the cause and purpose and substitute the trappings, the bonding as if that were sufficient to cover the downsides and the purposes of what the enterprise, the war is about.

        If you don't agree with the reason or the outcome why on earth would you still do that job? Is it God's will? Is there a zeitgeist that says America will rule the world?

        If you believe that you are in for a rude and nasty awakening.

        If you think that you and a bunch of other people can just show up on Wall St, camp out and have any effect whatsoever.... well, you will be run off in 20 minutes., you will leave town having wasted your effort 6/18/11.

        by BeeDeeS on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 11:54:52 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  You RECOMMENDED this POS? (7+ / 0-)

      Do you endorse the lies and distortions therein?

      You hurt your own credibility. Think about it.

      "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

      by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:45:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'll read over soon (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sharoney, Clay Claiborne

        But generally, my view is that there may be valuable points to be made, and I am not willing to discredit someone just because I may disagree with their point of view.

        There is also the fog of war which distorts everything we know and have heard, and even maybe what some have seen.

        I respect soldiers' sacrifice, and that  they are doing what they believe is the right thing to do. I do not judge them. I  hope for an end to war that takes away their lives and health and peace of mind.

        I respect those of you who are more intimately familiar with the military, and who have sacrificed the most of all.

        •  But apparently it's OK (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          marina, Vetwife, erush1345, IndieGuy

          to smear and defame an entire branch of the armed services, one which has served our country honorably and under the most extreme conditions, with their very lives.

          The points the diarist may have wanted to make have been totally buried by calumny and self-glorification. As a diary it is egotistical and judgemental.

          And you're OK with that? I hope not.

          "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

          by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 07:11:18 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Please listen to the folks (13+ / 0-)

    suggesting you delete this diary. You raise some valid questions about the nature of militarism and the sacrifice we demand of those who are in the military. However, your approach is hurtful to those who have served or care for those who serve.

    You have every right to post this diary and state your opinions. But I would strongly urge you to rethink tone and wording.

    And green belt??? Hell, I made green belt. Believe me-you won't be killing anyone with your bare hands.

    Nobody is normal because everyone is different- my eight year old daughter

    by left rev on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:43:13 PM PST

    •  I'm so thankful for the comments in this diary (7+ / 0-)

      that made such a sad commentary humorous.

      Seriously, LOL

      And green belt??? Hell, I made green belt. Believe me-you won't be killing anyone with your bare hands

      AND WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE IN 2011? -- Susan from 29

      by voracious on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:46:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  So left rev, the diary raises "valid questions" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zinger99

      but you don't like the TONE?

      You have every right to post this diary and state your opinions. But I would strongly urge you to rethink tone and wording.

      "You have every right to post this diary and state your opinions" as long as you do it in a way that offends no one.

      I'm not getting into this. Anyone who actually served knows the truth of what went on, and how they react to it.

      And as long as war is prettied up, it will continue.

      When it is all said and done, there is often more said than done.

      by glorificus on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:54:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You already got into it (8+ / 0-)

        by posting here.

        Did you even read the damn diary before you added your addled self-righteousness to the diarist's?

        We're not objecting to the fact that war is ugly. We're objecting to the broad-brush smearing of the members of an ENTIRE BRANCH OF THE MILITARY--people who have fought and died for the likes of you--because some jerk wants to paint himself as an! anti! war! hero!

        FEH.

        "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

        by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:58:31 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Uh, people say shit all the time. Do you accept (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          zinger99

          what Mitt Romney or Newt Gingrich says about Democrats or liberals as the truth?

          Yes, I read the diary. Not everyone in the military sees combat. Jesus, you go into a feeding frenzy because someone says something you don't agree with 150%.

          I do believe there were multiple My Lai-type massacres. I do believe the government turns young men into "trained killers" which was the term I was told THEY used in their boot camp. I believe there were atrocities committed by U.S. troops in VietNam and in the current actions in the Middle East. I also believe (hope) they were rare.

          If the entire U.S. Army was not subject "to the broad-brush smearing of the members of an ENTIRE BRANCH OF THE MILITARY" from what happened in Abu Ghraib with NO people higher than non-coms* punished, I'm not worried about this piece on a liberal blog.

          I found Abu Ghraib disgusting, and the lack of repercussions immoral.

          This piece? Just a look back at a war that ended 30+ years ago, more or less.

          *Except that one woman general, of course.

          When it is all said and done, there is often more said than done.

          by glorificus on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 04:11:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, I objected to a POS diary (0+ / 0-)

            that was a broad-brush condemnation of all the members of an entire branch of the service.

            But nice try.

            I do believe there were multiple My Lai-type massacres.

            No one is denying that, least of all me. But nice try.

            I believe there were atrocities committed by U.S. troops in VietNam and in the current actions in the Middle East. I also believe (hope) they were rare.

            No one is denying that, least of all me. But nice try.

            I found Abu Ghraib disgusting, and the lack of repercussions immoral.

            No one is denying that, least of all me. But nice try.

            This piece? Just a look back at a war that ended 30+ years ago, more or less.

            Your point?

            "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

            by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 04:23:16 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Do you approve or excuse what the 4 did? (0+ / 0-)

          Do you believe they should get a sternly worded letter and it be allowed to be sent into limbo in their files if they have no further troubles or reprimands for the next year? Would that help?

          I suppose you are helping the Marine Corps here so a light punishment would cheer up the morale and keep everybody feeling positive and enthusiastic, or is it something else you are after?

          If you think that you and a bunch of other people can just show up on Wall St, camp out and have any effect whatsoever.... well, you will be run off in 20 minutes., you will leave town having wasted your effort 6/18/11.

          by BeeDeeS on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 09:53:07 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  * (0+ / 0-)
            Do you approve or excuse what the 4 did? (0+ / 0-)
            Do you believe they should get a sternly worded letter and it be allowed to be sent into limbo in their files if they have no further troubles or reprimands for the next year? Would that help?

            No, I haven't and I don't. But nice try. Do you?

            I suppose you are helping the Marine Corps here so a light punishment would cheer up the morale and keep everybody feeling positive and enthusiastic, or is it something else you are after?

            I suppose it's easier to attribute feelings and attitudes to me in a pathetic effort to bolster your point (as you and many others have done) then to actually read my comments and respond to what I, you know, actually said, which is that I object to the characterization of an entire branch of the armed services, and all its members, throughout its entire history, as "serial killers."

            To sell a book.

            Is that straighforward enough for you? Or do you want to build more strawmen to knock down?

            "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

            by Sharoney on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 12:01:38 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  He's not just talking about (5+ / 0-)

        war, glorificus. And he's making very broad brush statements about an entire branch of service. Individuals, good and bad.

        His valid points are going to get lost in it. They already have.

        War is offensive. No pun intended. Policy that requires war for its continued existence is offensive. The people who wind up fighting in them, by and large, are not.

        Nobody is normal because everyone is different- my eight year old daughter

        by left rev on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 03:03:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Yes, I am saying point blank (8+ / 5-)

    the the Marine Corps is not an honorable institution with an honorable history. That is a mythology that has cost thousands of people of color their lives in the past 60 years.

    What I hear above is that such a position is beyond all consideration in this so-called democratic free speech community.

    Our conduct, as a nation, in the past 10 years in Afghanistan has been an outrage to humanity, hundreds of thousands killed. We've left Iraq a destroyed nation, after we tossed it for WMD and didn't find any. Maybe a million killed there. Then there was Vietnam, at least three million murdered there, mostly from the air. You got a story that makes that okay? Makes those who did it honorable?

    I'm looking to put an end to this madness and the national mythology that allows it to continue.

    Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

    by Clay Claiborne on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:46:32 PM PST

  •  Diary ranges from overly broad brush... (9+ / 0-)

    ...to some unsupported psychobabble unworthy of this site.

    Have a donut.

    "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win". Mohandas K. Gandhi

    by DaveinBremerton on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:56:18 PM PST

  •  Minor edit to the diary: (19+ / 0-)

    Delete everything after

    I'll admit that I don't think

    Seriously.   I know you mean well - war sucks, dehumanization sucks - but you should consider that we have Marines on this site, too, and they're not running around stabbing homeless people as part of some unthinking, killological reflex.   This is amateur, armchair psychology applied indiscriminately to a lot of people who don't deserve it.

    Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

    by pico on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 02:57:42 PM PST

  •  How do you propose that we avoid ... (7+ / 0-)

    training young people to be kiilers?  That's one of the things the military is sometimes called upon to do.  Do you propose simply abolishing the military, and announcing to the world: "Hey, anybody who wants to attack us, go right ahead.  We won't respond."

    But your suggestion that there is something about military training that turns people into monsters is, quite simply, bullshit!  Tell that to the people in Haiti, or in Banda Aceh Indonesia, many of whom owe their lives to our military.  Tell it to the people in Africa who were helped by a friend of mine, who went with his military medical unit to do surgeries in an area where people have no regular medical care.  Tell it to the high school kids who were motivated to go to college by my late father-in-law, who after a Naval career in which he started as an E-1 Seaman Recruit and retired as a Captain, rather than going to work for a defense contractor, decided to get a library science degree and become a high school librarian to try to motivate young men to understand that reading and studying weren't just something for girls.  As he was dying of cancer, several of those young men told him how important his influence had been in their lives.

    The members of our military don't decide where or when we go to war.  Our elected leaders do that.  And to suggest that their military training renders them misfits or monsters is to insult a lot of very good people.  The examples you mention were aberrations -- not simply "mistakes" that don't deserve punishment (as Rick Perry characterized them today), and not an inherent result of military training.

    PROUD to be a Democrat!

    by leevank on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 03:04:13 PM PST

    •  Tell that to the thousands of kids who graduate (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sharoney, VClib, erush1345

      high school and don't know what to do with their lives, who feel that they can start a career in the military.

      The military, and especially the Marine Corps has been a salvation to many people I know. When you come from a terrible life, with no hope for a future, the military can help. It is not a choice for everyone, but many who have made the choice do not regret it.

      AND WHY ARE WE STILL TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE IN 2011? -- Susan from 29

      by voracious on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 03:12:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I trust this was directed at somebody else (5+ / 0-)

        As I think my comment makes clear, I completely agree with you.  My father-in-law was one of those kids.  He graduated from a high school in a small town in Iowa to parents without much money or education.  He joined the Navy because he wanted to see the ocean, and then after a couple of years as an enlisted guy, was selected for the Naval Academy.  He got to see the ocean up a lot closer than he had ever wanted to when the first ship to which he was assigned as a junior officer was torpedoed.

        Neither my wife nor I had ever heard our fathers talk much about their WWII experiences until the night before we were married, when they discovered that my father-in-law's cruiser had been just off the fantail of my father's aircraft carrier when my father-in-law's ship was torpedoed.  They stayed up until the small hours of the morning talking about their experiences

        PROUD to be a Democrat!

        by leevank on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 03:19:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  My father joined the Corps (11+ / 0-)

        after Pearl Harbor.

        He talked about it the way Ivy League grads talk about their college years. He doesn't boast about what he was required to do. He just did it. The only reason he didn't get sent to Iwo Jima with so many of his buddies is because he was a radioman, calling in artillery (which put him on the very front lines, BTW, Clay, not that you would know anything about that) and was summoned stateside to train on a new radio system while that horrible slaughter raged.

        Growing up, I was a DFH who was against the Vietnam War. My father, having lived through the hell that is war, was not. We had different worldviews. But damn it, I learned about what war is really about at his knee (unlike the diarist, who sees it as an opportunity to brag about his deadly fighting skillz), and he respected my right to differ with him on policy matters. That kind of perspective and respect was a core value that the Corps taught him, along with his two marksmanship awards and a fruit salad of service honors that decorated the beautiful uniform we buried him in three years ago.

        He taught me about what the tradition of military service meant to the guys (and gals--he was "Gunny" to the numerous and amazing female Marines under his command when he retired) who chose to serve our country and whose service informed what they did and the persons they became for the rest of their lives. He taught me about integrity and honor. He taught me through the endless, lively kitchen-table debates that we had that it's OK if you disagree with your country's policies, but you'd better go in knowing what the fuck you're talking about first if you're going to go head-to-head with someone who actually put his ass on the line when his country called on him to do so.

        Dammit, now I'm crying. I miss him so....

        A diary like this is like garbage thrown at everything that is honorable about military service and should be deleted, at minimum. Fuck you, Clay (if that is your real name, you shill) for writing this. Delete it.

        "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

        by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 03:25:58 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  that is very true, but no reason to close your (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PSWaterspirit, statistic

        eyes about the fact that the experiences you have to go through in the wars can cause as much a terrible life for those, who are involved in it and survive the war afterwards.

        We don't want for those, who choose to join the military, because they come from a terrible life, to have to risk  more of a terrible life getting out the wars and surviving traumatic experiences. Nobody should regret to have chosen to serve. But nobody should have to suffer the consequences of war either, the burden should be shared among the whole population to make it more bearable and fair.

        •  So you agree (0+ / 0-)

          with the diarist that Marines are trained to be "serial killers"?

          Yes or no, mimi. You can't have it both ways. Either you think this Piece of Shit diary is fair in its assessment of service members or not.

          "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

          by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 07:16:34 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  no, I don't agree with the wording. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BeeDeeS

            They are not trained to become "serial killers', but apparently their training isn't good enough to prevent some of the soldiers acting out like as if they were. The culture of pretty much accepting hazing, deliberate cruelty, trophy mentality as something normal shows that the training is not bullet proof and there are reasons to be critical not of the individual soldier, but of the training methods used.

            And sure I can have it both ways, because seldom is anything just black and white.  

            •  You made my point for me. (0+ / 0-)

              The diarist smeared the entire Marine Corps for the actions of some assholes whose actions besmirched the service.

              THAT'S what I and many others objected to. Not the trophy mentality.

              But that didn't stop the unthinking pile-on here against those of us who don't have a binary mentality when it comes to members of the armed services.

              "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

              by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 08:06:07 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  training young people to be kiilers? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      leevank, erush1345, BeeDeeS, Sharoney

      yes, sometimes. My son is a Green Beret SF combat medic, just arrived in Afganistan today.

      He will be the first to say that he is a shooter first, medic second. But his training re: security and combat is so that he can do his job as a medic. for which he has already spent an extra year in training compared to his contemporaries. One year out of his 27, that he will never get back. He's got an honors degree in International Studies, so why is he an enlisted guy in a Special Forces A team? Because that's where you make a difference!

      SF is about winning hearts and minds, about clandestine ops, Counter-insurgency.... stopping a problem before it becomes a war. But everyone on an SF team needs to be capable to fighting himself out of any circumstance. No Holds Barred.

      So are they trained Killers? yes. Even though he's a medic, he could kill you in 20 seconds with his bare hands. But that's not his mission. His mission  is to help people, and to do that first you have to establish a security perimeter. And act on it.

      Back during Vietnam, I was a cold war nuke weapons officer. If I launched a Nuke, was I a trained Killer? well, I suppose so. and much more so than breaking someone's windpipe in the desert of Afganistan.

      Without geometry, life is pointless. And blues harmonica players suck.

      by blindcynic on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 08:25:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Only you make the decision to kill. n/t (0+ / 0-)

    I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night, alive as you and me.

    by plankbob on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 03:26:30 PM PST

  •  This diary is the worst of the worst (7+ / 0-)

    Bigoted, ignorant slander to stereotype everyone in a Marine Corps uniform. Full of hatred and fear. As stupid as a TeaBagger with a misspelled sign: Obama is Hitlar.

    The diarist won't take it down. So this is one diary that needs to be hide-rated to death.

    Sunday mornings are more beautiful without Meet the Press.

    by deben on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 03:48:09 PM PST

  •  Shame on you! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zinger99, Timaeus, BeeDeeS

    Shame on you for saying anything negative about the US military.

    It's only "a few bad apples" you know.  

    The US military and US soldiers would NEVER do anything inhumane or against the Geneva Convention...never never.  We're the good guys.

    Now, delete this and make everyone feel better.

    •  Go to hell, David. (4+ / 0-)

      That's not what most of us object to, and you know it. Ass.

      "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

      by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 04:02:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Of course, because American soldiers... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zinger99, Timaeus

        are simply well-meaning individuals simply trying to be patriotic people who should be forgiven for not understanding that they are instruments of American foreign policy.

        A job is a job, I guess right?

        Maybe you should go tell that to the good American Quakers who work very hard to get people out of the US Military for conscientious objection.

        Are these "bad" Americans, too because they don't worship at the alter of militarism?

        •  I never said that. (0+ / 0-)

          I have respect for COs. I wouldn't dream of smearing them as cowards the way this ass smears Marines as serial killers (do you approve of that, David? Do you?). My best friend in HS was a CO and went through hell because he didn't feel the Vietnam War was moral. And I supported him.

          But thanks for erecting another straw man argument. Hope you're proud of yourself.

          "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

          by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 07:18:57 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Perhaps I am mistaken, but I believe the diarist (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BeeDeeS, Sharoney, erush1345

      is attempting to dissect and characterize not the apples, but the cart.

      But if I am not mistaken, your comment helps not.

      H'mm. I'm not terribly into this, anymore.

      by Knarfc on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 04:28:22 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  interesting, isn't it? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Timaeus, statistic, Sandino

      So many people on this site are anti-war----but when it comes to leveling direct criticism on a branch of the military, it's not allowed.

      Funny how people work.

      I don't agree with the diary either (far too broad a brush and there are many truly heroic people in the miiltary)--but it's interesting to watch what people shut themselves off to in the name of a knee-jerk emotional response.

      •  Sheesh. Nothing knee-jerk about it (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        erush1345

        and I never said that the armed services were without flaws.

        What so many of us objected to is the broad-brush calumny of ALL individual Marines who served their country honorably. What is it about that which is so difficult for you and others to understand?

        I'm gobsmacked that I even have to say that once in this comment thread, never mind multiple times.

        Apparently Kossacks aren't as able to see such crap for what it is as I thought they were back when I joined this site back in 2003.

        "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

        by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 07:23:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  diarist is objecting to something (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sandino, David Kroning II

          that a lot of people here hold sacred.  He's allowed to do that.  

          The whole military=heroes notion is basically jingoistic in itself.  Are many of them heroes?  Yes.  Many aren't.

          Diarist may be over-generalizing--but there are points in there that could be discussed quite civily elsewhere.

          •  No one said military=heroes. (0+ / 0-)

            You and others are the ones saying that, at the same time many are indulging in the same reductionist thinking you accuse others of.

            Diarist may be over-generalizing

            "May be"? It's as plain as day.

            "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

            by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 08:08:45 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Your sarcasm says a lot about who you are. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sharoney, erush1345

      It also says you have no understanding of the US Military and the generally very conscientious and honorable people who stand between you and parts of a world that would like nothing better than to indiscriminately destroy the best things we stand for.

      What we read, see, and hear on the news is part of the "if it bleeds, it leads" mode of media operations to capture the most viewers.  You don't read about all the fine and decent things done by our military...not because they're not newsworthy, but because it's not entertaining enough.  

      Both you and the diarist have transferred your dislike of government policy...and war is an extension of government policy...to those who are sworn to uphold the oath they took when then became soldiers.  Not only have both of you you transferred your dislike, you've been insulting and priggish.

      Your patronizing condescension is despicable.  I suggest you direct your remarks to the civilians that tell our fine soldiers what to do...and often how to do it....even when that puts their lives at greater risk.  

      The longer I live, the clearer I perceive how unmatchable a compliment one pays when he says of a man "he has the courage to utter his convictions." Mark Twain

      by Persiflage on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 07:31:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I served in the Gulf War...wearing a uniform (0+ / 0-)

        of the US military.

        I was a 20650

        I was trained to kill people and I most likely did.

        •  I stand by my comment. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sharoney

          I'm sure your service as an AF photo interpreter was invaluable.   You're still insulting and priggish.

          CPT. ADA, MACV, USARV

          The longer I live, the clearer I perceive how unmatchable a compliment one pays when he says of a man "he has the courage to utter his convictions." Mark Twain

          by Persiflage on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 06:30:30 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Perhaps... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Thousandwatts

            but I'm also informed by my experiences, Captain...

            Many a man or woman who as gone to war and seen the true nature of it has come to denounce it as a tool of foreign policy and as an instrument of human self-destruction.

            Yet, it goes on...because young people become drunk on the heroism of their grandfathers, shiny metals and colorful ribbons and forget what it's all really about.

            If it were simply a matter of defending ourselves, or family and our friends that would be one thing.

            You cannot be so foolish, however, to believe that the last generation of wars were about anything other than the acquisition and the control over oil resources.

            Keep cheering...it is your right.  As much is it my right to warn against such folly.

            •  Do you truly believe there are people who (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sharoney

              have experienced war up close and personal that just love it and want more?   Say what you will about those who haven't, and yet glorify or encourage it   Start with Congress.   Complain  loudly.  I do.  

              You characterize objections about YOU and your self-awarded moralistic superiority, as cheering for war.  Have a field day.   You're hiding a small mind behind a glittering shield of self-righteousness.

              The longer I live, the clearer I perceive how unmatchable a compliment one pays when he says of a man "he has the courage to utter his convictions." Mark Twain

              by Persiflage on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 07:03:12 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  Oh please... (0+ / 0-)

      nice way to avoid the issue as if it were too complicated to understand...

      Without geometry, life is pointless. And blues harmonica players suck.

      by blindcynic on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 08:28:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Calm down people. (7+ / 0-)

    I didn't read this as an indictment of all Marines. Nor, all service members.

    I admire our service men and women. Period.

    I have not served.

    There is truth that I'm uncomfortable with to be found in that first video.

    Hence, a rec.

    (vet wife and others) zero disrespect intended.

    •  So. (0+ / 0-)
      After all, that's what they [The Marine Corps] do. They take ordinary human beings and they turn them into serial killers.

      That's not an indictment of all Marines? How is it not, exactly?

      "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

      by Sharoney on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 12:20:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  HR in memory of my late father, (6+ / 0-)

    who not only was a Marine and Golden Gloves boxer, was an incredibly brilliant man who would have thought this diary was rubbish.

    All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown

    by CA ridebalanced on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 04:22:28 PM PST

  •  Disgracefully leaping to conclusions... (2+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    Sharoney, erush1345
    Hidden by:
    PSWaterspirit

    about what created a serial killer.

    Shame on you. Please edit or delete.

    'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

    by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 04:22:43 PM PST

  •  Well, I can only wonder how many of those (6+ / 0-)

    commenting who ask for the diary to be deleted have viewed even a small portion of Ryan Endicott's testimony in the first video clip. Whatever the shortcomings or disagreements with the rest of the diary may contain.

    How many would be courageous enough to include this testimony in one of their own diaries?

    Or how many would be craven enough, given the terrible dilemma posed by the diary, to censor that testimony?

    Is the free speech of US military veterans censored, here, now?

    H'mm. I'm not terribly into this, anymore.

    by Knarfc on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 04:25:40 PM PST

    •  It always has been.... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zinger99, Sean X, Timaeus, BeeDeeS

      The majority here is just as eager to jump on the "Support the Troops" bandwagon as those on the Right.

      They can criticize the American Military/Industrial complex and cheer the troops without any apparent irony.

      Would their even be a Military/Industrial complex without volunteers willing to do the bidding of those in power?

      It is apparently so...just as Napoleon understood, "men will gladly lay down their lives for little more than the idea of patriotism and little bits of colored ribbon."

    •  I'm reading through these comments, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sandino, David Kroning II

      planning to make the same point if it had not already been made.  Most of the comments here are kneejerk mindless sentimental patriotism. But we're supposed to be the reality community, and one should not comment here without seeing the videos linked in the diary.

      •  I viewed all the videos. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        erush1345

        I still think the diary is a shallow hit piece.

        And for you to airily dismiss the comments here against the diary as "sentimental" shows your mindset better than anything I could have said.

        "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

        by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 07:48:50 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  "They take ordinary human beings... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Vetwife, luckylizard, Sharoney, erush1345

    ...and they turn them into serial killers."

    No, they don't.  And it is quite vile of you to make the accusation, based on a statistical sample of 1.

    According to the CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/...) there were 18,361 homocides in 2007.  I can't find any data on how many were done by people with military training.  I doubt it is anywhere close to 50%, let alone a majority.  If you could show some evidence that murderers tend to have military training, you might have a talking point.  As it is, all you have is cranial flatulence.

    It also would have helped if you'd actually made a point or a conclusion.  But you seem to have settled for inuendo, insinuation and false conflation, then just trailed off without any kind of resolution.

    If you want to smear the military, have the guts to do it point blank.  Otherwise, your rambling will be taken with all the gravity you served it with... none whatsoever.  It merely paints you with a very unappealing set of emo-rants.

    Do that... elsewhere.

  •  I would only ask, why pick on a particular branch (5+ / 0-)

    of the US Armed Services?

    All soldiers, the world over, from the dawn of recorded history, have been trained to fight, and be ready to kill when ordered into battle or sorties.

    By it's very nature, war is a blot on humankind. Death and destruction are antithetical to basic human nature, which is the drive to perpetuate the species.

    The act of turning citizens into soldiers cannot be an easy road, because you are taking a person's basic responses and turning them upside down. Mammals are very much a species which depends upon it's Fight or Flight instinct for survival, as individuals and as groups. Military training is designed obviate that instinct, and to supplant it with other instincts, such as returning fire instead of running away.

    So, until our species matures past the point where physical war is an acceptable part of our culture... we will have a military, and the members of our Armed Forces will be trained to fight and kill.

    Will this result in a number of individuals who, while or after being members of a military, have some sort of lasting deleterious impact from their time of service and act out because of that impact, perhaps being damaged enough to commit serious and sometime heinous crimes?

    Sadly, the answer to that question is yes.

    So I take exception to your choosing to single out a branch of the US Armed Forces, and equate the horror committed by some who wore that particular uniform, to the entire cadre of US Marines.

    If you want to rant on the horrors that modern warfare and military training have been the direct and root cause of - you are more than welcome to do so. Call out WAR and all of it's building blocks to the Global Military Industrial Complex which appears to have the modern world by the throat on every continent, hell ya, you go right ahead, and I (and I believe most of those who asked you delete this diary) would be right there supporting such a call.

    Because it's the Wars and those who choose them, on purpose, when alternatives are available to find resolution to a conflict, that are the problem. Without them, how many damaged and dangerous ex-soldiers do you think would be out there in the world, causing havoc on the homefront?

    * * *
    I like paying taxes...with them, I buy Civilization
    * * *
    "A Better World is Possible" - #Occupy

    by Angie in WA State on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 04:57:54 PM PST

    •  Thank you so much, Angie, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ozsea1, erush1345

      for introducing some perspective and sanity in this mess, unlike the diarist, who would style himself a hero for a screed that is factually incorrect and worthless, and his supporters, some who are clueless and others (and you know who you are) who project their loathing onto an entire class of people who chose to serve their country because of their own feelings of guilt or the actions of a few bad apples.

      "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

      by Sharoney on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 07:30:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well of course. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sandino

      But that's not what he's writing about. He chose to focus on the Marines. It doesn't take much brain power to extrapolate that to what you're talking about.

      I think maybe he might have more or less unconciously done it like that to spark the predictable outcry in this comment thread.

    •  "Sadly, the answer to that question is yes." (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Vetwife

      And as noted upthread I have a son in Afganistan as an SF combat medic, and I hope he is not affected too much, though he may be WRT handling wounds  of his comrades in a stressful environment.

      And yet, I also have a lifelong friend, a Nurse Practitioner who is at Ft. Carson in Colorado trying to run a research study to help victims of PTSD, especially TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury) using Hyperbaric oxygen treatments...It's not like nobody cares.....Some people, and some parts of the MIC are actually trying to make things better....

      Without geometry, life is pointless. And blues harmonica players suck.

      by blindcynic on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 08:43:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I have a cousin, wounded in Afghanistan, in (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        oldpunk, Sharoney

        a recovery facility in the NE right now, whose father (my uncle) was a career Army man, served 30 years and retired as a Sergeant Major.

        My dad served in peacetime in the late 1950s, in the Navy in the Pacific. His father was shot down over Germany while serving as crew on a bomber plane, the only one to survive the crash, and a Nazi POW for over a year.

        I honor and respect all of them and their service, and that of every man and woman who volunteers to wear the Uniform of the US Armed Forces, to serve on behalf of me and mine.

        But I understand the loathing of War and all of it's attendant ills, for I am one of those who feels that way.

        I just don't understanding attacking one of the branches of the Service, when the reason for all the angst is not the Service - but the politics and diplomacy (or lack thereof) which puts those Servicemen in Theatre, wielding weapons, taking lives and losing them.

        * * *
        I like paying taxes...with them, I buy Civilization
        * * *
        "A Better World is Possible" - #Occupy

        by Angie in WA State on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 11:53:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  don't understanding attacking one of the branche (3+ / 0-)

          We were supposed to learn after vietnam about the real Lesson : That when the government lies to us it creates a serious rip in the fabric of society - and losing in Vietnam where we shouldn't have been (see : Dien Bien Phu) should have taught that lesson. and 30 years later the American people get talked into yet another unreasonable war in Iraq and an unnecessarily prolonged war in Afganistan!!!

          So my son, trained in international affairs, knowledgable about politics, is where he wants to be for his own reasons. In my mind, the real Americans hurt ARE the young kids motivated to join the army or Marines and then are misused.The use of the ready reserve and especially the National Guard to replace a draft and/or higher taxes to support more Volunteer manpower was a shameful misuse of political power.

          I think my son will do fine, he's 27 and smart and a highly trained SF Medic and not a fool. But the PTSD TBI study I mentioned above involves an awful lot of 18-19-20 yr olds with no real life experience sent into the field to kill or be killed. It's no surprise they get PTSD at alarming rates, and TBI only accentuates that. We, the people, allowed the W administration and the neocons to ruin a generation. The PTSD costs alone will top a trillion dollars in VA hospitals and broken soldiers and families, and what will the GOP do ? defund the VA. And blame the returning soldiers for not having a job and being deadbeats and "lazy government workers"

          Is this a great country or what?

          Without geometry, life is pointless. And blues harmonica players suck.

          by blindcynic on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 02:08:52 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  For the record, I've bookmarked this diary. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Vetwife, Sharoney, ozsea1, erush1345

    The piece of shit deserves as many donuts as it can get, and damned if I'm not all out.  Gotta come back tomorrow.

    Sunday must be the new troll day at DK.

    "If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.." - John F. Kennedy: Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961. We are the 99%.

    by IndieGuy on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 05:00:40 PM PST

  •  Clay, I've never understood your diaries. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Vetwife

    You obviously have some talent and some decent sensibilities.  But it's sometimes--often--just a bit off.  None of what you've written here makes any sense empirically, unless you can show that Marines and ex-Marines are overrepresented in the behaviors you decry.  

    I don't think we need a Marine Corps, or much of a military at all for that matter.  I don't think there's anything about military service that makes you more honorable than being a teacher or a firefighter.  But I really can't understand this diary at all,

    But nobody's buying flowers from the flower lady.

    by Rich in PA on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 05:05:56 PM PST

  •  To clarify: (3+ / 0-)

    the young men and women who volunteer to serve in our military include many of our best people.

    Too many of these patriots are forced or "encouraged" to do shit they know is wrong by superiors with plausible deniability.

    It sucks...hear the truth.

    •  In my experience, (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Vetwife, Sharoney, erush1345, VClib
      many of these patriots are forced or "encouraged" to do shit they know is wrong by superiors with plausible deniability.
      is not true.

      Does it happen?  Does it happen in the civilian workplace? Yes, but it's certainly not commonplace in the military.   And, in combat there's no time to do more than try to stay alive and do your best.  

      I'm more than a little upset with the insulting opinions being expressed by people who  sorely lack any experience in the matters they're so eagerly deprecating.

      The longer I live, the clearer I perceive how unmatchable a compliment one pays when he says of a man "he has the courage to utter his convictions." Mark Twain

      by Persiflage on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 07:43:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm sorry you find my opinion to be (0+ / 0-)

        upsetting and insulting. That is not my intention.

        You have experience that is different than that of the young man in that first video.

        I have no firsthand experience.

        These facts do not negate the truth that this young man speaks. I don't think he's making this up and his viewpoint is no less valid than yours.

    •  Prospect Park - was that your personal experience? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sharoney, Prospect Park

      Did that happen to you when you were in combat? Were you encouraged to do things you knew were against the UCMJ?

      "let's talk about that"

      by VClib on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 11:57:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  rec-- (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sandino, David Kroning II

    in order to encourage people to think rather than scream.

  •  I'm no military groupie, but (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Vetwife, Sharoney, ozsea1, VClib

    this diarist seems to be more interested in smearing with a broad brush and spreading sensational, graphic slasher porn than presenting usable data.  At the very least, readers deserve a little warning about the graphic nature of the content.  

    It's not that I don't know (or want to be aware of) such events, but to use them to malign a whole branch of service is a bit over the top in my book.  I've known too many good folks who have served to believe that they are all "serial killers."

    -7.62, -7.28 "Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly." -Langston Hughes

    by luckylizard on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 07:04:56 PM PST

  •  I want to say this (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sharoney, ozsea1, erush1345, mimi, VClib

    The diarist posted some very sensitive material on this
    post.   I think the diary could have been much more productive had it not broadstroked.  What the diarist said was spoken like an outsider looking in...IMO. With some facts but too broadly stroked.   I will say that Scot Camil living in Gainesville Florida probably goes to the Gainesville VA.  I do not know that for an absolute but I woud pretty well bank on it,   More than likely, our paths have crossed.
    The diarist reported some really gut wrenching things which did happen and does happen in war but has since the days of Spartacus so in war, this is nothing new,  My concern and has proven to be true was that he posted on a site where we have veterans and active military with severe problems.  There were references to terminology that was foreign in the world of veterans.  I will use some examples.   This diarist stated that he knew a vet in Jersey who talked to him about some things that went down.  It may or may not have happened and the diarist really could not have known,
    Example.....KayBar would be normal lingo for speaking of knives...Not the term knife,   A combat vet talking to an anti war demonstrator of their role in combat is almost unheard of.  Most combat veterans do not discuss their
    actions at all much less those that are suffering from guilt.   If they served in the combat war zone then they would feel comfortable talking to another brother...A vet and not just a vet but combat vet,   There are plenty of want a be's who claimed combat duty and wouldn't know a firefight from a firefly.  The term gun...No....it would be referred to as their weapon.  I just don't know any vet who actually bragged to a non vet about these things,   Have I heard of these things?  Yes.  Do I think all military is trained killers?  They are trained to war.
    Go to war and pick daisey is not in the manual.  That is just a reality.
    I wanted to remind the diarist as well that Markos is a veteran and I do not think of him as being a trained killer.  My biggest problem with the graphic description of the body part  souverneirs could put our men and women on this site in a real danger zone.  
    The diarist cannot stop war, no more than any other person because war is a fact of life and not all need to know or have the emotional stability to go where he took some tonight.  Not all marines are serial killers,  Killing in war is what is expected, war crimes are not,  I personally am against war and know what war does to families and relationships and minds.  
    I know war autracities happened.   Generalizing was not right,  People who serve and have served have enough to deal with and the American soldier who lived to get home for the most part deals with much more than a peace activist,  I would say 90 percent of combat vets I have met have blender feelings,  They suffer from guilt yet are not ashamed of their units.  It is our job to make them feel appreciated for any sacrafice and not damn them for a job they were called upon to do, and no I am not for war, but how many would really want a reminder such as this to know it caused just one to go over the edge?  Is that any less cruel?  

    We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

    by Vetwife on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 09:12:09 PM PST

  •  Wrong focus (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sharoney

    If there is corruption and criminality in the Corps, the direct responsibility goes up the chain of command. Start there.

    I'd HR this POS in memory of my dad, but I can't say for sure what he think of it. He knew commanders, especially civilian ones, were often corrupt and dishonorable. He was well-versed in military history.

    “Fair? Fare is what you pay to ride the bus. That’s the only ‘fair’ I know.” ~ Heylia James, from Weeds - 1st season

    by ozsea1 on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 10:01:46 PM PST

  •  PTSD is it as high as 250,000? (3+ / 0-)

    I have seen some reports that diagnosed and undiagnosed  cases are running that high, about one in four in returning vets.

    Why is that?   And is that directly connected to the missions, the theatres of war we are engaged in now?

    What is it about these wars that create these situations for the young people serving?

    Does that have any connection with Itzcoatl Ocampo, the ex Marine who killed 4 homeless men?

    If you think that you and a bunch of other people can just show up on Wall St, camp out and have any effect whatsoever.... well, you will be run off in 20 minutes., you will leave town having wasted your effort 6/18/11.

    by BeeDeeS on Sun Jan 15, 2012 at 10:17:26 PM PST

  •  It's distressing to see how this (3+ / 0-)

    supposed far-left liberal site is so completely pro-military and pro-war.

    It's incredibly foolish for so many here to continue to buy into the American exceptionalism and militarism crap. But I guess it's hard to escape decades of bad education, sloth, and extremely aggressive propaganda from the oligarchy.

    I find this thread extremely dispiriting.  If so many long-time Kossacks think like this, maybe we really are totally doomed.

  •  One can watch those shows and repeat that quote (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sharoney

    I know I have. I came of age in the aftermath of Vietnam and really truly, believed that after the collusion and misinformation that led to that unfortunate national expedition, it could never happen again.
    But it did and it does.
    I was too young for Vietnam, but I was here in the plants and the woods in the Seventies and met and knew lots of guys who had supposedly "been there". The bullshitters and the ones who really had and the narrative was completely different. Either way, I wouldn't post any of it as fact or experience. And I also took a ROTC guided marksmanship course in college, but I would never presume I had learned anything except how to shoot and safely handle a rifle.
    I have never h'red a diary in the time I have been here; mostly because I know my diaries are lacking etc, so I am gentle in my criticism. But when a diarist knowingly writes a controversial, broadbrushed diary about an institution and it's members and can't even take the time to research how to spell the subject he is denouncing- that's not a "typo" - it's a lack of effort.
    Heers a typo- repeatedly misspelling "corps" as "corp" is a lack of research.  

    I am completely anti-war, but I am completely in support of the people who are sent to fight those wars.

    And it should have been noted imho, that the the Vietnam program cited above as "recommended viewing", is a product of the diarist.  

    Occupy- Your Mind. - No better friend, no worse enemy.

    by Thousandwatts on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 09:46:02 AM PST

    •  Are you worried the diarist is making money? (0+ / 0-)

      If so, here you go:

      I am completely anti-war, but I am completely in support of the people who are sent to fight those wars.

      I am also and that is why I'm posting this.

      •  Not my worry about $, just clarity of source. (0+ / 0-)

        IMHO the diary was sloppily researched and set the bar by which the film should be viewed and judged.
        Disclosing the source makes it easier to know how many "grains of salt" should be taken from the get-go.

        Occupy- Your Mind. - No better friend, no worse enemy.

        by Thousandwatts on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 01:04:03 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually if you have viewed the video you would (0+ / 0-)

          understand a little better how the diarist ended up framing his diary the way he did. There was a saying about the Vietnam War by those who fought it - "Never again".

          But, it happened again as you have stated.

          The US military not only went to war based on a lie, it also ended up slaughtering untold thousands of innocent civilians directly due to the command chain within the military combined with basic training.

          Marines are not trained to win hearts and minds. They are not peacekeepers. They are a trained lethal weapon designed to kill. Unfortunately the military does not know how to undue this training upon their discharge and leaves many mentally, morally and emotionally crippled. Sometimes for life.

          In their own words:
          Winter Soldier - Breakdown of the Military

          I do agree the diary should have been much better because this is an important issue - especially as the drums of war are starting to beat for Iran.

          (BTW, the diarist and myself do not agree in the least on the Libyan situation and have had many antagonistic posts in the past. He supported the "humanitarian" angle - I don't but this is not the diary for this.)

          •  "Never again" was a popular saying (0+ / 0-)

            after Saigon fell and the war ended.
            It was on bumper stickers and posters. It was part of the common anti-war vernacular of a war-weary generation.
            It's not about how the diarist "framed" his diary.
            It's about individual incidents presented as widespread general truths with regard to an entire organization.
            It's about someone writing a diary "framed" to indict a particular group for heinous behavior and not having done due diligence and learning how to spell the name of the organization.
            I am aware of the heritage of the Marine Corps; my step-father was a Marine rifleman and as a kid I wanted to follow in his footsteps. I have a letter from a Marine Corps recruiter advising my 15 year old ass that I would be more value to the Corps if I stayed in school and finished high school. It wasn't too much later than I had a mental come-to-Jesus and realized that war was not all Sgt. Fury and GI Joe or Gomer Pyle and decided against enlisting.
            My issue with the diary is a lack of consideration for the gravity of the topics discussed and the assertions being made; a lack of respect for the subject indicated by the lack of research and the unnecessarily graphic descriptions for the subject at hand.
            And saying stupid shit like being a green belt in karate or taking a shooting course is even in the same ballpark as the subject being discussed.
            The Marine Corps is the tip of the spear; but to characterize them as killers that the government needs to know how to

            undue this training
            (sic) is more broad brushed unqualified, opinionated bullshit.  

            Occupy- Your Mind. - No better friend, no worse enemy.

            by Thousandwatts on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 03:40:17 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'll leave you with the following documentary (0+ / 0-)
              War in the Mind

              Senator and L. General (Retired) Roméo Dallaire also plays a major role in this film. For many years he has heroically spoken out in public to declare that he suffered intensely from PTSD and had attempted suicide. And today he continues to campaign on behalf of all soldiers who suffer.

              War in the Mind also investigates the issue of soldier suicide. Statistics from past and present wars tell the sad story of the magnitude of this problem. Families who have felt invisible, their sons' stories unacknowledged, tell of the impact of their loss.

              Yet this film also discovers that with effective treatment suicide can be prevented. Our cameras gained unique access to a UBC/Canadian Legion program which helps soldiers undo the wiring that military training has implanted in their brains, confront their pain, and learn to live again.

              If you don't know who Roméo Dallaire is try googling....

              •  I am familiar with him and thanks. n/t (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Claudius Bombarnac, Vetwife

                Occupy- Your Mind. - No better friend, no worse enemy.

                by Thousandwatts on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 06:02:55 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Here's a Frontline report on the same problem (0+ / 0-)

                  from an American perspective.

                  The following is chapter two which shows how soldiers are trained to instinctively kill and the problems that occur when they return from the battlefield without "retraining" to undo the mental conditioning they received during training.

                  The Psychological Impact of War [14:35]

                  Entire program:

                  The Soldier's Heart

                  U.S. Marine Rob Sarra had been in the military for eight years when the war in Iraq began. A sergeant in charge of a unit of 32, he was considered part of the "tip of the spear" -- among the first troops to reach Baghdad. In late March 2003, Sarra opened fire on an Iraqi woman in a black burqa he suspected was a suicide bomber, prompting others in his unit to begin firing as well. Her body torn apart by bullets, the woman fell quickly to the ground. It was only then that Rob saw she held a small white flag.

                  "Right then and there I was just like, what the hell happened? I was crying, hysterical…this woman got killed by my actions," Sarra tells FRONTLINE. "I wasn't going to talk to anyone about it. But little did I know it kind of worked itself back up to the surface when I came home."

                  Sarra is one of thousands of U.S. soldiers returning from Iraq free from physical injury but haunted by memories from the battlefield. In "The Soldier's Heart," FRONTLINE explores the psychological cost of war and investigates whether the military is doing enough to help the many combat veterans coming home with emotional problems. With unprecedented access to active duty service members at Camp Pendleton, a Marine base in San Diego, and through interviews with mental health experts both in and out of the military and members of a Camp Pendleton support group, FRONTLINE uncovers one of the underreported stories from the war in Iraq.
                  ...

  •  Beyond War: What would Dr. MLK Jr. say? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mimi, Claudius Bombarnac

    This might be an appropriate question given the day, so some final thoughts before I move on to composing my next diary.

    From Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Beyond Vietnam speech:

    This is the message of the great Buddhist leaders of Vietnam. Recently one of them wrote these words, and I quote:
    Each day the war goes on the hatred increases in the heart of the Vietnamese and in the hearts of those of humanitarian instinct. The Americans are forcing even their friends into becoming their enemies. It is curious that the Americans, who calculate so carefully on the possibilities of military victory, do not realize that in the process they are incurring deep psychological and political defeat. The image of America will never again be the image of revolution, freedom, and democracy, but the image of violence and militarism (unquote).

    If we continue, there will be no doubt in my mind and in the mind of the world that we have no honorable intentions in Vietnam.

    In point of fact, there was no honor in our slaughter of millions of what the Marines called "gooks" in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia.

    Our continued refusal to recognize that simply fact has led to Dr. King's fear, expressed in that same speech, to come painfully clear:

    As we counsel young men concerning military service, we must clarify for them our nation's role in Vietnam and challenge them with the alternative of conscientious objection. I am pleased to say that this is a path now chosen by more than seventy students at my own alma mater, Morehouse College, and I recommend it to all who find the American course in Vietnam a dishonorable and unjust one. Moreover, I would encourage all ministers of draft age to give up their ministerial exemptions and seek status as conscientious objectors. These are the times for real choices and not false ones. We are at the moment when our lives must be placed on the line if our nation is to survive its own folly. Every man of humane convictions must decide on the protest that best suits his convictions, but we must all protest.

    Now there is something seductively tempting about stopping there and sending us all off on what in some circles has become a popular crusade against the war in Vietnam. I say we must enter that struggle, but I wish to go on now to say something even more disturbing.

    The war in Vietnam is but a symptom of a far deeper malady within the American spirit, and if we ignore this sobering reality...and if we ignore this sobering reality, we will find ourselves organizing "clergy and laymen concerned" committees for the next generation. They will be concerned about Guatemala -- Guatemala and Peru. They will be concerned about Thailand and Cambodia. They will be concerned about Mozambique and South Africa. We will be marching for these and a dozen other names and attending rallies without end, unless there is a significant and profound change in American life and policy.


    We never had anything like the national dialogue or national reconciliation about the Vietnam War that Dr. King suggested. Instead we had Wall St. and the Media cram so much nonsense about the "Vietnam Syndrome" down our throats.

    So yes, now we have vets from Iraq & Afghanistan with PSTD and brain damage. It didn't have to be that way. You don't think I feel for them? I do! But I refuse to allow sympathy for them to be used to blacklist the realities of war and criticism of the institutions we have built to carry them out.

    The fact is, the US hasn't been on the just side of a war in my lifetime and I'm 63. Just about all the soldiers we've lost since WW2 were killed because they were invaders in a 3rd world country. The total number of people killed by the US Armed Forces in 3rd world countries since WW2 is probably somewhere north of 10 million, mostly women and children.

    I fail to see the honor in that, and I refused to be silenced by those who demand that this reality be hidden from view.    

    Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

    by Clay Claiborne on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 10:10:52 AM PST

    •  Doctor King never claimed that every single... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Vetwife, VClib, Sharoney

      ...member of the U.S. armed services is a serial killer.  You have.

      Sanctimoniously including a man like that in this POS, in order to justify your own twisted ranting, just compounds the shame you bring to this entire site.

      "If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.." - John F. Kennedy: Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961. We are the 99%.

      by IndieGuy on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 10:22:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you for this. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        IndieGuy

        Clay is a self-righteous egotistical twit who, rhetorically speaking has shot himself in the foot.

        And he can't fact-check--or write, for that matter--worth a damn.

        "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

        by Sharoney on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 12:24:40 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Staff Sargeant Jimmy Massey, ex Marine speaks out (0+ / 0-)
    Testimony of a US ex-marine

    1/01/08 "ACN" -- -- "I'm 32 and I am a trained psychopathic murderer. The only things I can do are to sell youths the idea of joining the marines and kill. I am not able to keep a job. For me civilians are despicable people, mentally retarded and weak persons, a flock of sheep. I am their sheepdog. I am a predator. In the army they used to call me Jimmy, the Shark".

    That was part of the second chapter of the book Jimmy wrote three years ago, with the assistance of journalist Natasha Saulnier, and which was launched at the 2007 Caracas Book Fair. Cowboys of Hell is the most violent testimony that has been written thus far based on the experience of a former member of the Marine Corps, one of the first to arrive in Iraq during the 2003 invasion. A is determined to tell, as many times as necessary, what having been a merciless marine for twelve years meant to him and why the Iraq war changed him.
    ...
    Q:  The most disturbing lines in your book are those in which you describe yourself as a psychopathic murderer. Could you explain why you said that?

    A: I was a psychopathic murderer because I was trained to kill. I was not born with that mentality. It was the Marines that trained me to be a gangster in the interest of US corporations, a criminal. They trained me to fulfill, without thinking, the orders of the President of the United States and bring him what he asked for, without any moral consideration.  I was a psychopath because we were trained to shoot first and ask later, as an insane person would act, not a professional soldier that is to face another soldier. If we had to kill women and children, we would do it; therefore, we were not soldiers, we were mercenaries.
    ...


    •  You'll note (0+ / 0-)

      that this vet talks about himself and his own experiences.

      He doesn't refer to his fellow Marines as "psychopaths" or "serial killers."

      That's more courtesy than the diarist granted the Marine Corps.

      "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

      by Sharoney on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 12:36:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree the diarist did not frame his diary (0+ / 0-)

        properly by putting himself in the picture and painting with a wide brush.

        I am a Canadian and am old enough to have experienced the Vietnam War through draft dodgers, defectors and deserters who came to Canada rather than fight in Vietnam. Many of these men are now Canadian citizens and have absolutely no intention of returning to the States.

        One of the things that has disturbed me about the Iraq war is how support for the troops was conflated with the act of war itself.

        In my posts against the war I was told to "Shut the fuck up" because by arguing against war I was "not supporting the troops". This meme was originally propagandized by Fox and was eventually spread by all the US MSM. "You are either with us or against us."

        I can see vestiges of this in this diary.

        I prefer to let the troops themselves tell their stories in their own words. Here's a link to Winter Soldier on Youtube

        Winter Soldier - Breakdown of the Military

        I also think it important for people who have not lived through the Vietnam War to view the diarist's video: Vietnam: American Holocaust.

        •  We agree on this: (0+ / 0-)
          One of the things that has disturbed me about the Iraq war is how support for the troops was conflated with the act of war itself.

          That's not what I did in my responses to this badly written POS.

          But the knee-jerking bandwagoneers here see fit to accuse me of just that because I refuse to buy into the trash job this diarist gleefully perpetrates.

          "The truth will set you free...but first it'll piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

          by Sharoney on Mon Jan 16, 2012 at 10:50:04 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  they are in fact trained to kill (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Claudius Bombarnac

    and they are quite open about it. That being said, I think you're painting with a very broad brush calling them serial killers and the only reason why I recced is to keep you from getting HR'd to death.

  •  For the record, I tipped and rec'd this diary (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Claudius Bombarnac, deben

    and fought hard for it in the comments thread.

    After a day of thinking about it, I retract my rec and my tip jar tip, and I'm sorry I got so involved with this thread.

    I can't remember anything in my comments that I don't believe and must retract (although I did send Sharoney an apology).

    But after more thought, I think this diary paints with much too broad a brush in attacking the Marine Corps. I don't think that's worth an HR in the tip jar, because the diary is well-sourced and sincere and from a credible writer. But I now think it's not worth a tip either.

    --Caspar Milquetoast, aka Timaeus

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