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(From the diaries -- kos)
Seymour Hersh says the US government has videotapes of boys being sodomized at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

"The worst is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking," the reporter told an ACLU convention last week. Hersh says there was "a massive amount of criminal wrongdoing that was covered up at the highest command out there, and higher."

This is a summary of Hersh speaking at the ACLU 2004 America At A Crossroads conference according to EdCone.com (via Oliver Willis). I verified by watching the video myself (it starts at 1:07, the "worse stuff" part starts at 1:30).

There's more bad stuff in here, read Ed Cone's summary.

I'll try transcribing some of the more important bits.

[my transcription from 1:31 - 1:32]

Some of the worse that happened that you don't know about, ok. Videos, there are women there. Some of you may have read they were passing letters, communications out to their men. This is at Abu Ghraib which is 30 miles from Baghdad [...]

The women were passing messages saying "Please come and kill me, because of what's happened". Basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys/children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. The worst about all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror it's going to come out.

It's impossible to say to yourself how do we get there? who are we? Who are these people that sent us there?

Chilling.

[update: title changed since Hersh could be giving either 1st or 2nd hand info. I need to watch it again first - Gryn]

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:33 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  When is this (none)
    going to hit the mainstream press here?  What are they waiting for?

    Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning? -- G. W. Bush

    by Unstable Isotope on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 04:39:23 PM PDT

    •  They are way too busy (4.00)
      We've got to go after Whoopi Goldberg right now.  Please stay on message.  Abuse scandals are sooooo like two months ago.  People don't care about this anymore.  Please try to keep up with popular outrage!

      The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much, it is whetherwe provide enough for those who have to little. -FDR

      by kamosa on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 04:41:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This was from July 8 (none)
      That's 12 days ago and this is the first I've heard of it.  I searched like the crazy for entries since that date referencing Hersh, but didn't find a single one.

      If this has been talked about already I apologize.

      •  I have emailed Kos (4.00)
        and humbly suggest others do the same.

        If there's one Main Page story I'd like to see the press steal, it's this one -- and it's got a better shot on the Main Page.

        Maryscott O'Connor -- Rage, rage, against the lying of the Right.

        by Maryscott OConnor on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 05:48:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I hope so to. (4.00)
          I can't believe that this didn't explode on the news media the next day!  (I screwed up subtraction, it's only 6 days, but that's still obscene)

          I hope Kos gets this to the main page to (he's free to rewrite the whole mess, I just want the topic pushed)

          •  It did come out (4.00)
            on May 10, MSNBC.  So unless someone can get ahold of the tape, there is really nothing "new" to this news.  The only news is Sy's description of the scream and the context of parents witnessing.  The SCLM glossed over it when it was news.  The rest of humanity doesn't gloss over child rape.  

            "RUMSFELD:  There are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel, and inhuman.  

            MIKLASZEWSKI:  U.S. military officials tell NBC News, the unreleased images, show American soldiers severely beating one Iraqi prisoner to near death; apparently, raping an Iraqi female prisoner; acting inappropriately with a dead body; and Iraqi guards apparently videotaped by U.S. soldiers raping young boys.  

            SEN. LINDSAY GRAHAM ®, SOUTH CAROLINA:  We`re talking about rape and murder here, we`re not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience, we`re talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.  

            MIKLASZEWSKI:  Senator Carl Levin raised questions about one photo which appeared to show the abuse of prisoners may not be random, but part of routine operations.  

            SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN:  That the conduct we were witnessing and watching was not aberrant conduct of a few individuals, but part of an organized and conscious process to extract information.  "

            •  Michael D mentioned this too (none)
              I even recall hearing about that earlier now, but I didn't know the source.  Someone must of put serious pressure on congresscritters and the press to keep a lid on these alegations.  There was nary a peep in the mainstream press about these revelations that there should have been.  This is evident by the fact that to most of the very well-read dKos community this was still new "news".

              Maybe that's why Hersh is holding back until he has solid evidence (videos or lots of credible witnesses).  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence perhaps?  Would america even know about Abu Ghraib if not for the photos?

        •  I regularly email the local (none)
          NPR.  In this instance, I emailed, in particular, the translation of the Mainz transcript.  That has other links, including to original German transcript, and to the TV show segment as video.

          That's the best I know how to do.

          What, by the way, happened to the news that one TV station was given four "new" memos, and would be basic a report on those?

          A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on. -- Mark Twain

          by jnagarya on Fri Jul 16, 2004 at 03:10:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  The press is scared shitless (3.66)
        On one level, their concern is justified -- when this hits the open air, the previous amount of Iraqi antagonism will seem like flowers and kisses (TM "spit-comb" Wolfowitz, 2002). The second this becomes public knowledge (with non-stop tape on Al Jazeera) is the second that the "anti-insurgency" in Iraq becomes a full-blown popular rebellion.

        On the more repugnant level, however, this is simply ass-covering of the highest degree. Hersh gets it exactly right: "Who are we?" The delusional facade that the popular press constructed in the lead-up to war is coming crumbling down, and they are absolutely terrified that their complicity in facilitating this tragedy will be laid bare for all the world to see.

        I'll tell it and think it and speak it and breathe it, and reflect it from the mountain so all souls can see it.

        by Hard Left on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:04:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Your comment about Al Jazeera (none)
          may not be accurate.  Of course, the fact that they want to be objective and professional, like CNN and other US TV media, is a factor.  See the film "Control Room".

          A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on. -- Mark Twain

          by jnagarya on Fri Jul 16, 2004 at 03:38:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Sy talked about this at U of C (none)
        Almost a month ago. The press knows. Everyone knows.

        The question is where are the videos? Something tells me they're gone, destroyed after the first abuse pictures were leaked.

        •  Nope, the videos aren't (none)
          "gone".  Rumsfeld himself, in a rare contact with reality, acknowledged the fact.  The CDs with photos, etc., were generally circulated, freely.  So there are many copies out there.

          In addition, one or more who would destroy them would likely keep copies in order to protect themselves down the road.  Or for who knows what other reasons.

          The war between CIA and Bushit War Crimes Family, and that between military and Bushit War Crimes Family, continues.  If a memo, signed by Rumsfeld, Bushit, and Ashcroft, authorizing torture was leaked, what else is coming?

          Obviously, if whoever is/are leaking the memos don't see happen that which is intended, s/he will leak ever-more damaging materials toward whatever that end.

          A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on. -- Mark Twain

          by jnagarya on Fri Jul 16, 2004 at 03:47:53 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I've been wondering the same thing. (3.25)
      I first read about children tortured at Abu Ghraib on June 10 at Brad DeLong's site.  I've been wondering, are the media honchos who can get at these pictures withholding their publication out of some misguided idea of decency?  Or (really the same thing) are they deliberately protecting a criminal administration?  Or are they, as I hope, just waiting until we get close enough to the election to really nail this bunch of psychopaths?  

      It is far better if the deliberations of a free state are known to its enemies, than if the secrets of a tyranny are concealed from its citizens. -- Spinoza

      by Gary Sugar on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 04:58:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Nothing worse (none)
      than a Skull and Bones initiation or frat party.

      /future Rush broadcast

      So, how does the Administration play this one?  Back to the few bad apples meme?

      The United States of America: Walk the Talk

      by Velvet Revolution on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:46:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It has been around for over a week.... (none)
      Der Speigel posted this and the story states that it was American soldiers involved in the abuse, not Iraqi interrogators as some have speculated.  I admit that I do not read german all that well, but what I can translate with my HS german matches the English version of the story.

      Energy is neither created nor destroyed; it only changes form.

      by SME in Seattle on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 09:06:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  In the recent U.S. News (none)
        item, was a quote by an officer that Graner is one of the worst pigs on the planet.

        From what we already knew, he is through and through a thug on the wrong side of the line as concerns prison guards (which he was before transfering his "skills set" to Abu Ghraib).

        And otherwise it seems he wasn't the only thug among that part of one of the several bushels.

        A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on. -- Mark Twain

        by jnagarya on Fri Jul 16, 2004 at 03:55:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  asdf (4.00)
    I'm pretty sure he said he saw the videos, but he could have been characterizing someone elses comments regarding the videos that the Pentagon has.

    I'll try listening a couple more times to make sure.

    •  Here is my transcription (4.00)
      It's from 1:31 - 1:32
      Some of the worse that happened that you don't know about, ok.  Videos, there are women there.  Some of you may have read they were passing letters, communications out to their men.  This is at Abu Ghraib which is 30 miles from Baghdad. 30 Kilometers maybe, which is 20 miles, anyway. The women were passing messagses saying "Please come and kill me, because of what's happened".  Basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys/children in cases that have been recorded the boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling.  The worst about all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking.  That your government has.  They are in total terror it's going to come out.  It's impossible to say to yourself how do we get there? who are we? Who are these people that sent us there?
      •  asdf (none)
        So is Hersh going to write a story about this?  It's going to get out sooner or later.

        ---
        This post is just a preview. Get the full effect at SpaceRook.com

        by TrentL on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 05:06:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes he will (4.00)
          He says earlier that he is going to be reporting more about this and this was mentioned as some of the stuff you haven't seen yet.
          •  The thing is Hersh will (4.00)
            report it and it will be reported in Europe (continentalprimarily with spill to the UK, the UK suffers from Rupertism as do we)
            but this needs massive release in America.

            This has been known since it broke and was rumored for months beofre that.

            Now the issue is, who is iwth us in this country, amongst those who hold the information.  Hersh yes, but it takes more.

            I still say, we don't look this in the face and deal with it, we are finished as anation.

            BTW anytime the Pentagon gives up some of thier 2000 photos (which show women and children) si fine.

            I guess we have Gen. Boykin Rules of Engagement: our god is bigger.

            by Marisacat on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 05:31:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Doug Feith (4.00)
              ...is disliked by the regular army.  Tommy Franks turned down being chief of staff, because he didn't want to work for him.

              For every Firery Cleric Ricardo Sanchez, there are multiple Zinnis, McPeaks, and Odems who want all the neo-cons out.

              After all, Sy and WaPo didn't get the photos from the few bad apples.

              The question is when will the move forward? Sept, Oct?  The Kerry camp better prepare, because the media will demand a statement.  They won't be able to sit it out, at that late date.

               

            •  Oh, I think the media will pick up on it (none)
              Hersh will report it initially, then AP will do a generic write-up that will be carried everywhere.  It will then move onto the major papers, and be discussed in the op-eds endlessly.

              The problem is TV might not adequately cover the story if there are no pictures.

              I wonder how many members of Congress are trying to cover this up.  I assume they saw these videos/images when they had that screening a while back, right?  Is there a sense among them that "The American people understand mistakes were made, there's no need to rub it in."?  

              Oh, and where's Rummy these days?  Dude's been keeping a low profile lately.

              ---
              This post is just a preview. Get the full effect at SpaceRook.com

              by TrentL on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 05:54:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  NYer (none)
                Once his story's in the New Yorker, it's instant worldwide news -- just like the previous articles.  'Nuf said.

                Money changes everything -- Cyndi Lauper

                by Tlacolotl on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 11:01:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That's what I thought too... (none)
                  ...but his story about Israel and the Iraq war a couple months ago didn't get much play in the US.  I suppose the Abu Ghraib story is much more serious, though.

                  ---
                  This post is just a preview. Get the full effect at SpaceRook.com

                  by TrentL on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 03:31:04 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Israel < raped boys (none)
                    Much more serious, much more unexpected (by the majority of Americans, anyway), and much more sensationalistic.  That last part is the key to stories that hit the news cycle hard; raped boys on videotape being hidden by the Pentagon plays up to our nation's Jerry Springer syndrome much more than anything Israel may or may not have had to do with Iraq (which is just so complicated, darn it -- make Hulk's head hurt to think about!).

                    Money changes everything -- Cyndi Lauper

                    by Tlacolotl on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 12:38:10 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  This is So Wounding (4.00)
              I think I'm pretty tough but I just could not do this thread in one sitting.  Had to go out and sit under a tree and ask....

              Why?

              Please let us not let this go until some justice has been done.

              I kept thinking about women asking their men to come and kill them......

              I kept thinking of those kids screaming......

              I kept thinking of soldiers doing this and asking myself what manner of human does this....

              Who watches this done to a child and calmly tapes this..........

              What have we done?  What have we done?

              What in God's name have we done?

              You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can ALWAYS be honest.

              by mattman on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 07:31:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  This is So Wounding (none)
              I think I'm pretty tough but I just could not do this thread in one sitting.  Had to go out and sit under a tree and ask....

              Why?

              Please let us not let this go until some justice has been done.

              I kept thinking about women asking their men to come and kill them......

              I kept thinking of those kids screaming......

              I kept thinking of soldiers doing this and asking myself what manner of human does this....

              Who watches this done to a child and calmly tapes this..........

              What have we done?  What have we done?

              What in God's name have we done?

              You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can ALWAYS be honest.

              by mattman on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 07:31:24 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You're not alone -- (none)
                it's "personally" devastating in a way beyond anything we've so far seen or learned about the horrors behind the smirk.

                I've been asking the same questions.

                Mostly: how do we undo that which was done in our name?

                How fucking depraved must Bushit be to authorize such.  To see the consequences and not stop the tortures?  

                He has made no public renunciation of it.  And his comments have been couched in such a way that he appears to be skirting the issue; i.e., it continues.  And did you hear the tone in his voice when he said he never "ordered" turture?  Anger -- at those asking questions about it.  Petulant arrogance which says: if you don't shut up about it I'll do it to you.

                Honestly, we knew he is a petty, vindictive little prick.  And knew he is a sadist.  But in our wildest imaginings, did any of us arrive at the extreme assumption that he would be so depraved as to authorize -- and defend -- the use of torture?

                Who could imagine that would include rape and murder of adults, let alone of children.

                The Provance description of the 16-year-old boy -- wrists so thin the handcuffs wouldn't stay on -- is powerfully moving.  And at the same time compassionate and gentle.  Obviously, Provance has a greater degree of education -- is more consciously awake -- than many in the military, and especially among those who have been inflicting the tortures.

                Who, indeed, could film the rape of children as if such were normal, acceptable?

                A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on. -- Mark Twain

                by jnagarya on Fri Jul 16, 2004 at 04:25:17 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Agreed -- (none)
              the only way to undo the damage done by the Bushit War Crimes Family war crimes is by complete and full disclosure, turning all the perpetrators over to the Hague, signing onto the International Criminal Court.

              In short, to put our values not only where our mouths are, but in our actions.

              And on top of those actions, apologizing.

              And that will only -- justifiably -- be the beginning of undoing the damage: why should the US betrusted to keep its word in view of such indescribable extremes of violations of so many laws and norms?

              If we haven't the guts we demand of others, if we must "save face" where there can be no legitimate face saving, then we are not what we claim to be.  And that will at minimum mean that the terrorists' rhetoric is true, and ours a long-standing lie.

              A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on. -- Mark Twain

              by jnagarya on Fri Jul 16, 2004 at 04:07:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  videos? (4.00)
    Let me get this straight. The people running the video cameras saw people raping children, and taped it instead of stopping it?

    Unbelievable. And I'm sure I heard about this at least 2 months ago, but there's been nary a peep in the press.

    •  Re: videos (none)
      Cheeky:

      Let me get this straight. The people running the video cameras saw people raping children, and taped it instead of stopping it?

      Unbelievable. And I'm sure I heard about this at least 2 months ago, but there's been nary a peep in the press.

      What's more, if you distribute the videos, you may be violating various child pornography laws...

      •  Partly Right (none)
        If you even possess these images you could be violating child pornography laws.  It depends on whether the images are prurient.  Some people probably would get off on these images.  Anyone want to trust that Ashcroft wouldn't prosecute them for possessing Iraqi "kiddie porn?"

        This aggression will not stand, man

        by kaleidescope on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 07:03:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  you are sooo right (none)
      Nary a peep from the press.

      I for one personally don't want to see the video's but I do want to see the in depth headline news and reporting about this story from the press....60 minutes where are you?

      However, I also understand that it is a sad fact that without the "pictures" beaming across our electronic video media and tv screens across the US, a thousand words will not even come close to getting the sheeple to understand the criminal nature and morally bankrupt sadistic magnitude of Bushco's massive policy failure # 197 aka We don't need no stinkin Geneva Conventions.

      Plus I'm sure there will be more "outrage over the outrage" of the SCLM reporting the facts again by the holier than thou rethuglicans. I mean, what will we tell the children.

    •  I believe (none)
      that pictures and video were taken to be shown to other prisoners, to coerce & threaten them and their families.

      without love, a hearbeat is just a clock marking time

      by Madman in the marketplace on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:14:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  just a few bad apples (none)

      Don't blame me for the Iraq debacle. I never supported John Kerry. I supported Howard Dean.

      by Mike from NJ on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:53:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  it's worse than that (none)
      Take a look at the MSNBC story here. MSNBC/Newsweek tracked down what some of those pictured were charged with. (Remember they were only charged, not convicted of anything).  

      These guys weren't terrorists, insurgents or high value prisoners.  At worst they were just common thugs.  They were charged with assualt or car jacking.  Keeping in mind it is quite common for Iraqis to turn someone in for reward money or for revenge it's quite possible these people did absolutely nothing wrong.

      All this fever over the torture and they victims were (at worst) common criminals.  Not that torturing someone is ever right but this makes it so much more wrong.

    •  not that surprising (none)
      You'd be amazed what happens to seemingly nice, ordinary folks when placed in a position of power.  Do a google search for "stanford zimbardo" for a classic demonstration of this fact.

      (Not that I'm in any way trying to excuse the behavior of these people. I'm just saying that one shouldn't be surprised that the cameras just kept on rolling.)

  •  Child Rape (4.00)
    This was mentioned two months ago by one reporter, but it seemed to receive zero attention.

    Like Father, Like Son
    Four Years and He's Done

    by Michael D on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 04:46:03 PM PDT

  •  You won't see the videos (none)
    There is no way those videos are going to be made public nor will we hear about them if the press doesn't get a hold of them. I don't even think Democratic senators will release them or speak of them.

    And some in the press, mainly Faux News, won't run them either.

    It's a very sad day when Americans mistreat and possibly torture kids but Whoopi cursing takes priority.

  •  At least they're not getting married (3.66)
    Because that would be a threat to civilization as we know it.
  •  Pure Evil (4.00)
    "Let me get this straight. The people running the video cameras saw people raping children, and taped it instead of stopping it?"

    Well yes.  They didn't stop the rape because it was deliberate.  They were raping the children in front of their parents to get the parents to give up information on the insurgency.

    "In politics, every day is filled with numerous opportunities for serious error. Enjoy it." - Donald Rumsfeld, "Rumsfeld's Rules", WSJ 1/29/01

    by reef the dog on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 04:56:29 PM PDT

    •  Doesn't this show (none)
      that torture is completely ineffective?  The insurgency lives on.

      Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning? -- G. W. Bush

      by Unstable Isotope on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 05:05:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Cause and effect (4.00)
        I have no doubt a major part of the insurgency are pissed off friends and relatives of the victims.

        How can anyone blame them? I would be violently pissed off too if this happened to anyone I loved.

      •  Torture for the sake of torture (none)
        Sorry to be pedantic, but this actually doesn't prove that torture works or doesn't work, because anywhere between 60% and 95% of the people detained were innocent of anything. Raping the innocent kids of parents who don't know anything (and therefore are innocent themselves) is torture, but it can't be effective or ineffective, because the people are completely innocent. In this case, it's really more like torture for the sake of torture. Nazi comparisons abound.
        •  But that's what happens (none)
          Aaron, duh.  When governments set out to torture to extract information, the people they end up torturing always turn out to be 50%-95% innocent.  That's what happens, it's why torture is an ineffective intelligence-gathering technique, besides being morally wrong.  
          •  But torture is wrong (none)
            whether the victims of the torture are innocent OR guilty.

            This is the problem in our country; we seem to ready to accept that torture, death penalty, abuse, denial of human rights is okay when the people we do that to are BAD people.  The argument, then, is reduced to demonstrating that these folks are innocent, a battle one can never win decidedly in the great US with its overt and latent prejudices.  There are always some americans somewhere (often in the US government) who will continue to argue that these folks are nonetheless bad, so the actions are okay.  You know, the old, "these folks are in prisons, after all, they aren't sunday school teachers".  

            (Of course they conveniently ignore that any number of the people doing the torturing may in fact be sunday school teachers.)

            "By focusing fear and hatred on the Tutsi, the organizers hoped to forge solidarity among Hutu." -- Human Rights Watch

            by a gilas girl on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 01:44:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Aaiiigh! (none)
      Some sick puppies we've got there.

      I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days will attack me at once. --Jennifer Unlimited

      by JOyODurham on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:02:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Raping Children (4.00)
    Sodomizing children.

    That is to say, violently inserting adult penises or objects into the anuses of children.

    Perhaps if we find a graphic enough way to describe these indescribably horrific, heinous, evil crimes, the goddamned scumsucking bullshit-selling so-called liberal media will be inclined to report it.

    There is something else that bothers me perhaps more than the media's silence about this.

    Have not our Senators and Congresspeople seen these videos? Were those blanched faces the result of proper outrage or the certain knowledge that if this came out, the country would be fucked?

    In the absence of ANY of these politicians even MENTIONING this catastrophe, I am forced to conclude that their pallour was caused by self-interest.

    Perhaps it truly is time for a violent revolution. I'd make a beginning, but if I were "disappeared" my 4 year old son would miss me terribly. However -- I am getting to the point where that may no longer be as important as the overthrow of this most corrupt and virulent set of governors, currently engaged in treason against their citizens for the sole purpose of saving their own asses.

    This is so wrong I have lost the capacity to put words together.

    Maryscott O'Connor -- Rage, rage, against the lying of the Right.

    by Maryscott OConnor on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 05:09:30 PM PDT

    •  violence or nonviolence? (none)
      acting violently runs the risk of harming more children...  

      gene sharp's three books on the "politics of nonviolent action" are great for studying the strategies, tactics and methods of nonviolent action.  of course, you still run the risk of getting disappeared yourself.

      http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/ref=s_sf_b_as/103-6351682-3206268

    •  Thank you (3.50)
      Maryscott, well said.  I have an 11 year old boy and I would personally disembowel anyone who would ever dare lay a hand on him.  

      I too have been considering for quite some time that we may be forced into revolution.  I heard a reading of the Declaration of Independence on the 4th and I couldn't believe how applicable the complaints of 1776 were to the situation we face today.  I truly believe the Founding Fathers would be four square behind us.

      This administration has almost completely destroyed any pride I had left in being an American.  This is just pure evil.

    •  You Got the Self-Interest Right. (none)
      If it makes you feel revolutionary, then just imagine how Middle Easterners would feel upon this news.  It's in all of our self-interest that this stays under the radar, unless you won't mind 10,000 (100,000?; 1,000,000?) new Jihadists.  Very difficult line to walk...
      •  do the right thing... (3.75)
         It's in all of our self-interest that this stays under the radar

        maybe in the VERY short term.  but,  don't think for a minute that just because we are ignorant of what is going on, the same can be said for the iraqis.

        if we continue to try to hide what we've done we will just be labeled (rightly so) hypocrites and continued to be perceived as the enemy with no honor.

        instead, i hope this ALL comes out.  and as hersh says, we are talking war crimes here.  take it to the highest level and prosecute those responsible.  that is what we have to do to even begin to make amends.  and it will, i think, in the long term, defuse some of the understandable anger.

        •  Hersch Does Say Due Process to Be Served... (none)
          eventually...  He also asks how much are we going to make the arab man take in defense of his lukewarm approach to the story.

          After Kerry is elected would be as good as time as any for the country and the world to come to grips with this.  The "very difficult line to walk" would be that the video would add to the liklihood that the administration goes.  Aw man, I dunno - its just FUBAR...

        •  Yes . . . (none)
          If we want to preserve even the idea of civilized societies we must see these deeds prosecuted to the fullest in the international arena.

          Candor defeats paranoia -- Allen Ginsberg

          by ponderer on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 11:07:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  you think they don't know already? (none)
        N/T

        we're rolling back the republican crime wave

        by zeke L on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 06:23:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Too late now. (4.00)
        The videos are in circulation.  Al Jazeera undoubtedly has copies, or will soon.  This is the worst, the truly worst-case scenario.

        It hard to think this will not be raised at the United Nations, with the appropriate visual documentation.

    •  Can this be true? (4.00)
      Can this be our America?

      "Armando has never been for Clark. He's a party hack sent here since the beginning to work this blog. The objective now is to have us fall in line."-Clark blog

      by Armando on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 06:22:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is not my beautiful house (4.00)
        This is not my beautiful country.

        Maybe I should ignore it, though -- for the sake of my beautiful mind.

        Maryscott O'Connor -- Rage, rage, against the lying of the Right.

        by Maryscott OConnor on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 06:29:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  RE: This is not my beautiful house (3.00)
          Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was.

          Get off the cross. We need the wood for the fire.

          by Rp on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:39:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Mojique thinks of days... (4.00)
            before Americans came

            He sees the foreigners in greater numbers
            He sees the foreigners in fancy houses

            Mojique holds the package
            in his quivering hands

            Mojique sends the package
            to the American man...

            The wind in my heart
            The dust in my head
            The wind in my heart
            comes to drive them away

            You may say
            I ain't free
            But it don't worry me

            by Paolo on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 09:53:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  never mint the screaming from the basement (none)
             My job was to do what I was told, just as their job was to do what they were told, just as the Friendly Man's job was to do what he was told, because the audience, the 12 million listeners, had something they wanted to be told: that America is a good place with decent people, never mind the screaming coming from the basement.

            Scott Carrier  "The Friendly Man"

      •  Not Our America (none)

        This is Bush and PNAC's vision for America. This drives home why these sick, perverted, twisted, power-hungry fucks must be stopped at any cost.

        •  No, we are all Americans (4.00)
          I have to disagree with you, the rest of the world is less and less willing to make the distinction between the actions of our 'leader' President Bush and the American public.  They saw that when the original photos show abuse and torture of adults that a significant part of the political sphere was outraged at the outrage, they saw that no senior leaders were sacked, they saw the deliberate foot dragging on the way to the mildest apology possible, they saw that people are more concerned about the Laci Peterson and Kobe Bryant trials than Iraq.  

          As I wrote at my blog this morning, America has lost its moral standing because of a lack of moral courage in our pursuit of expediency.  If this news was an isolated incident and truly the work of a bad apple, then the rest of the world would be willing to cut the nation some slack.  However this is just the latest of a systemic failure in the practical implementation of our proudest national ideals.  Even us liberals who are disgusted at the actions of our government will be painted with this brush by the rest of the world.  

          Come on over to Fester's Place for blogging on politics, urban budgetary crisi and the New England Patriots

          by fester on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 04:29:53 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Verily (4.00)
            it is so. Nobody says, "the world is watching, do the right thing". You are tested when you least expect it, when you are least aware of it and when you think you are doing something else.

            Then the results come in and you find you have failed.

            You can scream all you like about it not being fair, about demanding another test so you can really show your stuff and you will hear these words, "you've had another test, we needed to see how you respond to being called a failure and you started screaming at us, and threatening us and demanding special treatment, and you failed again."

            Failed. Again. The test is like a thief in the night, unless you are always ready, always responding as if every breath is a test, you will fail every time, as you have so badly since 9/11/2001.

            "Till the last dog dies"

            by Deep Dark on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 05:55:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  "You will be tested on this material" (none)
              Can't say you weren't warned:

              for wee must Consider that wee shall be as a Citty upon a Hill, the eies of all people are uppon us; soe that if wee shall deale falsely with our god in this worke wee have undertaken and soe cause him to withdrawe his present help from us, wee shall shame the faces of many of gods worthy servants, and cause theire prayers to be turned into Cursses upon us till wee be consumed out of the good land whither wee are goeing

              John Winthrop, first Governor of Massachusetts, 1630

            •  DeepDark: (none)
              It's so true, man.  I've been carrying around this saying in my head for 20 years:  

              "the exam starts in five minutes and you never know who the teacher is/was"

              But your line raises the concept to mythic status:

              The test is like a thief in the night, unless you are always ready, always responding as if every breath is a test, you will fail every time

              and brings to mind an oft used saying attributed to Native American warriors

              Hoka Hey!!  It is a good day to die!

              to remind themselves that to live as a warrior, one must be ready for the test at any time.

              don't always believe what you think and Beware of Fungibility Unlimited

              by claude on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 11:41:23 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  America has lost more than you think (none)
            Eh Rab terrusts demolished the World Trade Towers in NY, enraging the Executive which declared preemptive war on Iraq for this heinous act, committed on September 11, 2002. September 11, 2002? Wait...want to check that again?

            Click this link for a photo of the memorial sign:
            http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0715041wtc1.html

    •  Look. . . (3.00)
      You are right to blame the media.
      But the real scoundrels are the Dems in congress.  They are supposed to be the opposition. Bitching & agitating is what opposition parties do. But these fuckers in our party are scared to death of Fox news and Limbaugh.

      The media are a pack of whores. If the Dems make enough noise, they'll suddenly appear like maggots on a dead dog.

      "God told me to strike Al Qaeda and I struck, and then he instructed me to strike Saddam, which I did." GWB

      by Lords on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:13:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry, no (none)
        The Dems in Congress should have stood up, that's true.

        But the Dems in Congress weren't the ones raping young boys and videotaping it. They weren't the ones who decided that torture was acceptable policy. That all happened over in the Executive Branch.

        My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. Sen Carl Schurz

        by Bill Rehm on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:44:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Don't be a fool (2.00)
          The Executive flew out to Iraq to do it themselves?

          You know who did this, and so do I.  Wave your "I Support The Troops" flag all you like.  I'll be over here, in the 21st century, not living in 1945.

          •  Command Responsibility (4.00)
            You are right in that President Bush did not personally fly into Baghdad, feed plastic turkey to the troops at Baghdad International Airport and then decide "What the hell, I'll go rape an Iraqi boy."  The actual execution of the rapes are the responsibility of the rapists, and for them, I hope that they are punished to the fullest extent of the applicable law (UCMJ, US criminal law, or Iraqi criminal law).

            However, if Hersh's statements are to be believed, and all the evidence that has come out of Abu Ghraib and other US run prisons in Iraq suggests that he knows what he is talking about, there is a systemic failure here.  That is the responsibility of the commanders to fix.  If there was a single rape in which the rapists were quickly and severely punished, and guidelines and proactive protective measures were then installed as soon as the command team realized that there was a problem, then it would not be the fault of the Executive branch/President Bush.

            However, we have repeated examples of torture, torture-lite, rape, and hostage taking over a several month period.  We have repeated reports of individuals with incredible amounts of moral courage coming forward to their superiors saying that something that they have seen is morally and criminally wrong.  We have the knowledge that the chain of command extending up to and including President Bush knew or should have known that potential war crimes were being committed by American forces or by Iraqi forces under American command at Abu Ghraib.  Yet they decided to not take corrective measures until the light of day forced them to do so.  

            This is a systemic failure of leadership and command responsbility.  The officers and civilian leadership knew that they were doing something wrong frequently, repeatedly and for months at a time and yet did not change their actions.  The buck kept on getting passed back and forth and human rights abuses and war crimes continued.  That is where the greatest crime lies, the unwillingness of the executive branch to step in and order American soldiers to follow basic guidelines of civilized behavior and not to commit war crimes.    

            Come on over to Fester's Place for blogging on politics, urban budgetary crisi and the New England Patriots

            by fester on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 07:11:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  and don't forget (none)
              some very interesting memos from the DOJ on what is and is not torture, how the POTUS is above all laws, etc.

              It started at the top with the tone if not with direct orders.  It started at the top with Getmo and the express desire to create a land that law forgot.  It started at the top with the pullout of the World Court.  It started at the top with a willful disregard for the rights of the US citizens not to mention the rights of non-citizens who happen to live in a country we decided to invade on false pretenses.

              I blame President Bush just as surely as the Republcants (R) would blame Clinton.  

        •  The Democrats did decide torture was acceptable (none)
          They're accepting it right now.  

          This particular "unacceptable policy", a.k.a. war crimes, should draw a response, first of impeachment, then imprisonment, of the Republican executives responsible for the policy.  

          But I guess impeachment and inditement are for dodgy land deals and extra-marital affairs, not for the kidnapping, imprisonment, starvation, torture, rape, sodomy, and murder of innocent men, women, and children.  

          Seriously, where is the outrage, and what are we going to tell the children?  I really want to know.  

          •  And there's no end in sight... (none)
            With two pro-war millionaires to choose from this November.

            People are terrible. They can bear anything.

            by soulfrieda on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 10:09:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Impeachment (3.50)
            isn't up to the Democrats; it's up to the Republican majority. Which is why we had impeachment when we didn't need it, with Clinton, and don't have it now when we do.  

            And yes, if the Republicans had any decency they would be cooperating with the Dems to bring articles of impeachment.  But can enough of them see past their own lockstep loyalty and short-term political expediency to do the right thing?  I honestly don't know.

            Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth. - Albert Einstein

            by Leslie in CA on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 10:13:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  It won't be revolution, it'll be civil war (3.50)
      It won't be pretty if it comes to that.  

      Think about this: how much do you care, really?  If you really love your family and children, if you really love America, which I do, warts and all, just try to envision having to make the choice between keeping them safe now (peace in our time) or watching them grow up in a Republican dictatorship. It could come to that.  I hope not, but I think it's worth thinking about and trying to get a sense of how you, personally, feel about this, now, rather than wait and see if you are going to be forced into a choice so horrendous, or just swept up by a mob without really knowing what you're doing there.   I've been having a real battle in my own head over just this issue: where do I draw the line?  How much solidarity do I manifest, and with whom?  Who do I trust with my life and liberty?

      I don't think this is tin-foil-hat stuff anymore; it needs to be examined, by each and every one of us, while we have the luxury of time to think about it.  I'm not asking anybody to declare themselves; just give it some thought.

      don't always believe what you think and Beware of Fungibility Unlimited

      by claude on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:41:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Revolution or... (none)
      What about a military coup (against Rumsfeld and the Pentagon brass) by the junior officer corps?  This hurts our troops second only to the Iraqi victims.  Even I know that Bushco has so wrecked the Army that it'll take years--probably a generation to repair it.    

      Never underestimate the destructive power of a ruling clique that's painted itself into a corner.

      by clarkista on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 09:16:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Calm down. Thanks. (none)
      Calm down.  Thanks.

      Only 3 more months until Bush is religated to the history books, and a real president starts setting things right again.

  •  If any of our elected representatives (3.83)
    viewed these or had the opportunity to do so and are covering this up, we should all vow not to rest until every last one is booted from office.  Doesn't matter to me if they are DEM or GOP.  

    Sure doesn't make me feel a whole lot better and confident that there is a difference between the GOP and DEM.

    •  Both Ways (3.80)
      If the elected officals were not privy to this video at the prior screening then we have a deeper scandal.  If the elected officals witnessed this video and failed to divulge what they saw then we have a deeper scandal.

      Do not go where the path may lead, instead go where there is no path and leave a trail- Emerson

      by Stevo on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 05:15:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is so sad (3.93)
    Look, perhaps the mainstream press isn't going to carry this story.  Our government has been doing things like this for a very long time: secret wars, secret prisons all over the world...  You gotta dig deep to get truthful information.

    I have a little e-mail group to whom I send political information.  They're all part of our choir, except perhaps my Dad.  My intention, in sending these messages to the converted, is to hopefully spur some deeper involvement in politics on their part.

    It isn't enough just to vote or put a bumper sticker on your car.  We need to write letters, donate money, volunteer for our candidates, seek alternative news sources.  Voting does not a participatory democracy make.  Anyone reading this already knows it.

    So, I encourage my friends to get involved, somehow.  Because I don't see how we are going to change our government and our political process if we don't participate.  Do we have any recourse other than to take the risk?  

    The risk of missing our favorite television shows.  
    The risk of losing friends.
    The risk of gaining "friends".
    The risk of being portrayed negatively in the press.  
    The risk of being portrayed positively in the press.  
    The risk of failing, over and over and over again.  The risk of not spending enough time with our children.  
    The risk of not getting enough sleep.  
    The risk of losing our privacy.

    The current state of affairs is what we get when good people don't take responsibility for society.

    Who is going to make things better, if we don't?  Howard Dean's message to Democrats was the same: don't wait for some knight in shining armor.

    It is good regular folks doing irregular things that will bring about change.

    And we need to change, because I am ashamed at what we have become.

    •  That is what happened under McCarthy (4.00)
      Most people on this blog are too young to remember, but a few of us do.  People did lose everything.  It may go better this time round.  There's more of us, and we are not saddled with the Marxist monkey on our backs. There is a deep vein of poison in our country, that sometimes erupts to the surface when we aren't paying attention.  We're now paying for that lack of attention.
      •  All evil needs to triumph (4.00)
        is for good people to do nothing.  Right..there were professors who lost tenure in a heartbeat, teachers fingerprinted--not to do a background check--but just to "be on file." High school history books never mentioned Manzanar.
        Ugly time, ugly, and not to be repeated.
    •  Raping children?! (none)
      No, we've have our sordid history but no - sanctioned raping of children by America - No.

      "Armando has never been for Clark. He's a party hack sent here since the beginning to work this blog. The objective now is to have us fall in line."-Clark blog

      by Armando on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:35:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes -- School of the Americas. (4.00)
        Americans teaching torture and terrorism.  We sanctioned the Contras, who would chop parents in front of children and children in front of parents.
        •  No (none)
          We coddled torturers - they didn't need lessons.

          "Armando has never been for Clark. He's a party hack sent here since the beginning to work this blog. The objective now is to have us fall in line."-Clark blog

          by Armando on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 09:01:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No what? Are you naysaying the facts? (none)
            Perhaps you should google "School of the Americas".
            •  Forget it (none)
              I'm still trying to get my head around this.  Don't  worry about me.

              "Armando has never been for Clark. He's a party hack sent here since the beginning to work this blog. The objective now is to have us fall in line."-Clark blog

              by Armando on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 10:04:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I blogged about *that* long ago (none)
                The CIA torture manuals that were used to train the Central American regimes agents, contain most of the same stuff they're using now in the War on Terra. That's why it's so laughable that they would say "we don't torture, the CIA doesn't believe in torture." Black hoods, nakedness, cold, food deprivation, mindfuck - all of that's in the CIA documents, based on "scientific study" they did over the decades following WWII.

                There have been rumors of this before - that the rats-face thing, frex, that is used on Winston in 1984 is actually an OSS invention - but the KUBARK stuff is undeniable.

                PRISONER ABUSE: PATTERNS FROM THE PAST

                All I had to do was google kubark to find it.

                "The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret" - T. Pratchett (change @ for AT to email)

                by bellatrys on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 03:06:46 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  also back in the "Gilded Era" (none)
                Emma Goldman, the labour/womens' rights activist, was rounded up with lots of her fellow anarchists on suspicion, and beaten (lost a tooth) and subjected to strip searches. This was back in September, 1901.

                ...As I stood at a street-corner wearily waiting for a car, I heard a newsboy cry: "Extra! Extra! President McKinley shot!" I bought a paper, but the car was so jammed that it was impossible to read. Around me people were talking about the shooting of the President.

                Carl had arrived at the house before me. He had already read the account. The President had been shot at the Exposition grounds in Buffalo by a young man by the name of Leon Czolgosz. "I never heard the name," Carl said; "have you?" "No, never," I replied. "It is fortunate that you are here and not in Buffalo," he continued. "As usual, the papers will connect you with this act." "Nonsense!" I said, "the American press is fantastic enough, but it would hardly concoct such a crazy story." ...

                Little did she know - she turned herself in because they were holding friends of hers, and she was secure because she knew she was innocent. Days of "third degree" interrogation followed.

                Here's the link to the rest - sorry, horrible html, or you can read my Diary entry about the beatings, isolation, sexual abuse she endured.

                And this was the "good old days."

                Excerpts from Goldman's memoirs

                "The Truth Shall Make Ye Fret" - T. Pratchett (change @ for AT to email)

                by bellatrys on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 03:17:38 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  here's my attempt... (3.75)
    some of the worst things that happened - that you don't know about.  ok? ...videos - um.  there are wmen there, some of you may have read that they were passing letters out... or communications out to their men.  this is at abu ghraib [ bit on location i didn't transcribe].  anyway, ther women were passing messages out say please come and kill me.  because of what's happened.

    and basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys - children... in cases that have been recorded.  and the boys were sodomized, with the cameras rolling.  the worst above all of them is the sound track of the boy shrieking.  that your government has... and they're in total terror that it's going to come out.

  •  I never (4.00)
    bashed Liebeman much before the whole Abu Ghraib travisty, but I would like to force him to sit in a room and watch these videos "clockwork orange" style. That man single handedly threw me into one of the biggest funks I have been in since my father died.
    •  MIke I believe you missed (4.00)
      the reporting on a special "re-show and re-tell" that Lieberman, Santorum and Brownback held for the media a few weeks ago.  They stated that the issue of pain and torture needed to be fully expressed and was misunderstood in reported Abu Ghraib.  They showed photos and retold stories of torture under Saddam.  Only our client and asset for many years.

      If people finally get it about Lieberman I would be happy.

      He still has his defenders here.  The professional consulting class of the party continue to like him.

      I guess we have Gen. Boykin Rules of Engagement: our god is bigger.

      by Marisacat on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 05:38:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm glad I (none)
        missed it. It sounds like the death kneal of a once great defender of human rights. I'm coming up on the 10 year anniversary of my fathers death and I am so glad he did not live to see this. The acts are bad enough but when people defend or try to add "context" or "proportion" they show themselves to be less human than the dog crap I had to scrape of my shoe earlier today.
      •  Damn right it was misunderstood... (4.00)
        ...it was far worse than reported.

        It's amazing what happens when you listen to the other person's opinion --- GWB, 12/18/00

        by Doug in SF on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:26:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  A shanda fur die goyim (4.00)
      That's a yiddish phrase meaning "a terrible thing [cognate with "scandal"] done by a Jew where non-Jews can see it" -- the implication being that  such a shanda fuels the fires of anti-Semitism.  I'm Jewish, and I've always hated Lieberman for being a sanctimonious, gullible stooge for reactionism.  If he knew anything about raping children and failed to blow the whistle...I mean, this is the guy who wants to be known for "standing up" to Clinton and criticizing media "immorality"?  So we have to scream at Hollywood when actors pretend to rape each other, but if American soldiers have real children raped we should just shut up?
  •  The rest of the Abu Ghraib torture scandal... (none)
    How long did it take before Abu Ghraib hit the mainstream?  Are we just witnessing a pathetic lag time before this particular atrocity hits the major press outlets?
    •  time lag (3.66)
      it's possible. supposedly the taguba and ICRC reports were in january and AG didn't hit the media until may.  

      but i for one heard rumors of this when the abu ghraib story was developing. hersh made comments like these back then - and perhaps there was some other buzz from the ICRC or other sources, i can't say.

      in any case, once i heard it i instinctively feared the worst. i freaked out for about a week solid.  

      however, suspecting this was the case, it explained a lot when i saw the totally shaken response of the congressfolk after the pentagon's show and tell hour.  i'm pretty sure they saw this video then. they had had a week to adjust to the hooded man and the naked dogpile. more pics in that vein would not have elicited that reaction. nor would a homemade porno of lynndie and graner - the one specific reported from that event.

      no. congress has seen this. and if so, the media know something.

      we're rolling back the republican crime wave

      by zeke L on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:47:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I don't want to sound opportunistic, but... (none)
      ...if this story is going to break, I'd like it to be right before the Republican National Convention.

      ---
      This post is just a preview. Get the full effect at SpaceRook.com

      by TrentL on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 03:41:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I don't usually write my members of Congress (4.00)
    However, I just have to today.

    It is short, not sweet, and probably could have been written better.  I just want them to know that people are aware of this.

    Here is what I wrote...

    There is new information and apparently video that shows boys being sodomized at Abu Ghraib prison.

    Here is how I found out about it:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/7/14/193750/666

    Congressman Issa, I want to hear some outrage over this.

    This kind of information deserves to be heard by the public so that we can purge our government of the unenlightened people perpetrating such disgraceful activity.

    Thank you for your time and consideration.

    Not that I actually expect Issa to respond favorably, he doesn't even list Iraq as a topic on which to e-mail him.  Problem is, he is my Congressman, for good or ill.

    Peace!

  •  This should be updated to a thread (none)
    Also This Modern World was reporting on this last week.

    Why, is that Don Rumsfeld? Nah. Can't be. The United States doesn't negotiate with terrorists.

    by Jank2112 on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 05:54:28 PM PDT

    •  Yeah I spotted that one. (none)
      My diary entry on it is here.

      This didn't mention the child rape videos which is why I think the Sy Hersh revelation is newsworthy in itself.  I had hoped at the time this was the thing Sy was hinting darkly at earlier, unfortunately the downward spiral continues.

  •  The "insurgency" is not surprising... (4.00)
    ... in any case, let alone this one.

    Thing is, I never thought of them as "insurgents" to begin with. They are Resistance. We are the goddamned infidels this time; if we ever were innocent of that charge it isn't true anymore.

    If they were my children... if they were American children...

    THEY ARE ALL OUR CHILDREN.

    THESE ARE OUR CHILDREN, for the love of ANY GOD YOU BELIEVE IN!!!!!

    Maryscott O'Connor -- Rage, rage, against the lying of the Right.

    by Maryscott OConnor on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 06:11:10 PM PDT

    •  Listen...and you can hear their tortured screams (4.00)
      Words spin out of the mouths of the faithless fathers.
      Lies are truth, nothing is what it seems.
      Sacrifice these beautiful sons, these beautiful daughters.
      Gorging on their stolen dreams.

      They are, you are, we are all God's children
      Fighting our way through these decisions.
      We are, you are, they are ever helpless.
      Listen and you can hear their tortured screams.

      Energy is neither created nor destroyed; it only changes form.

      by SME in Seattle on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:09:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why does Rumsfeld... (4.00)
    ...still have his job.  How can he go to work everyday knowing that this happened on his watch.

    Why do they hate us so...  Why, I wonder.

    Monsters exist. But they are too few in number to be truly dangerous. More dangerous are the functionaries ready to believe and to act without asking questions.

    by Titian on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 06:41:31 PM PDT

    •  Answer: Because the opposition is spineless. (4.00)

      "God told me to strike Al Qaeda and I struck, and then he instructed me to strike Saddam, which I did." GWB

      by Lords on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 06:47:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  In the interests of Corporate Profitability (3.50)
      Little brown boys must be raped by the US military. Their mothers must watch, their fathers stacked nude in undignified piles for photographs which are then put on file for future use against them. You never know when a completely crushed Iraqi will come in handy. Iraqi academics and professionals have to be assassinated to make way for much more highly-paid, thoroughly mediocre US managers totally ignorant of local conditions.

      If the US military didn't engage in the vilest sort of torture and systematic abasement of helpless, random, captives, US Corporations would not be profitable. They wouldn't have been doing it in Latin and South America for more than a century if they hadn't been scared of losing money. How else could the CIA's secret world-wide gulag have grown to such an extent that it's cover has been blown?

      You have to understand: US Corporations collectively refuse to do sums properly and seek to operate in an environment where their incapacity doesn't matter. For mendacity and mediocrity to survive, regardless of their shortcomings, such an environment has to be created. On Wall Street, it's the forecasts which really count, and no-one has yet required that your common or garden CFO take an oath before announcing those. He can chant up the numbers to stoke a pop in share prices: middle management does its best to make good on the fake. If they don't they're fcuked*.

      How does raping little boys square with this goal? You may well ask - Butch is there to make sure you understand that if you do, it could be your turn next.

      Furthermore, there are real problems with adequate reporting on Abu Ghraib: first, Editors everywhere  preferred the word abuse when referring to the rape of little boys and their mothers. If anyone can come up with a fluffy-teddy-bear doublethink CorporateSpeak euphemism for this, well of course they'll get round to reporting on it. Why even the kiddie paradise farm, Disney, might be able to frame a phrase condemning sadistic torture and child rape and decide to forgo a certain amount of potential overseas profit in the interests of human rights.

      Might. But if it means paying a decent wage and benefits, probably not.

      As for the Pentagon, well: they're covering a trillion dollar black hole in their accounting.
      ______
      * Check out INTL http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=INTC&t=5d on Yahoo! Finance. They reported good numbers but forecast lower sales, this week, triggering a market-wide selloff. The pressure to fudge facts is enormous. Intel Corporation is so large http://finance.yahoo.com/q/pr?s=INTC that they must rely on objective reality, unassisted by smoke and mirrors. Smaller corporations can ride the fairy-tales ButchCo peddles. And go bust much faster.

  •  Sick. Sad. Futile. (none)
    This whole thing is sick.  It is reprehensible, and it is futile talking about it now.  It's gone.

    Another scandal the Bush administration got away with, and I tell you, I blame the Democrats for not keeping their feet to the fire.
    The things these people have done, the lies they have told, and they did it all with impunity.

    "God told me to strike Al Qaeda and I struck, and then he instructed me to strike Saddam, which I did." GWB

    by Lords on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 06:46:29 PM PDT

    •  If the Democrats won't do it.... (4.00)
      ...And the mainstream media won't do it.  Then we'll have to do it.  

      One way or another, the American people have a right..a duty...to know what's being done in their name.  

      Where is the shame.  Where the hell is their shame?  

      This has got to stop.  Enough.

      Monsters exist. But they are too few in number to be truly dangerous. More dangerous are the functionaries ready to believe and to act without asking questions.

      by Titian on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 06:55:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed, but how? (none)
        How many progressive/Liberal weblogs are there?  Hundreds? A thousand?  We are coming into our own.  We are helping our candidates get elected. I thought that by now we would be exercising a lot more influence on the CURRENT members of congress.  

        It is shameful that heaven should send us things like Plame, Foster & Medicare, Rumsfeld & Abu Graib, the AWOL papers, etc, only to disappear without doing any real or lasting harm to the administration.

        IMHO fixing Congress is the first order of business, before we can influence anything. If you refuse to fight get to fuck out. Unfortunately, the only thing an elected politician is deathly afraid of is a primary challenge, I fear that until we are able to help mount such challenges our people will always be more afraid of the Republicans and their media, than they are of us.

        "God told me to strike Al Qaeda and I struck, and then he instructed me to strike Saddam, which I did." GWB

        by Lords on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:13:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Remember... (none)
      ...that Congress has already seen a large number of abuse photos and perhaps this and other videos. It's not news to them. It's not surprising in the least that they haven't gone around spouting to the press, considering how damaging this stuff is to us abroad, and they're not going to start now by confirming rumors like this. Nor should they, for heaven's sake. We know that terrible, terrible things happened, and the specifics of each and every terrible thing are not necessary to act on that knowledge.
      •  Remenber (4.00)
        Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Rather than a cover-up.
        Isn't that what democracy is all about?  Isn't that what we are trying to teach the Iraqis?

        In addition, this rape of kids is beyond reprehensible and someone should resign as a result, and it's up to the opposition party to force this issue rather than being an accomplice to covering it up.

        "God told me to strike Al Qaeda and I struck, and then he instructed me to strike Saddam, which I did." GWB

        by Lords on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:32:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I Suggest We Worry Less (4.00)
        about our image and worry more about our deeds.

        There is a closed door hearing today on Congress about this.

        We should be raising the roof about this TODAY.

        This is terrible and wounding.  I have almost no words except to beg everyone to contact thier reps aboput this.

        This is wounding beyond anything. But wounds - cleaned wounds  - can heal.  Scabbing over an infection can kill the entire body.

        You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can ALWAYS be honest.

        by mattman on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 03:08:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Hersh (none)
    You know, this is the second report I've heard where Hersh says this stuff. The first one was a couple of weeks ago at some other event. But he hasn't written about it yet.

    I sincerely hope he's not saving this for his book. It needs to be reported now. All Americans don't read the New Yorker, but all reporters read the New Yorker, especially when it's Hersh, especially on this topic.

    •  Hersh has said it (4.00)
      out loud from the first weekend.  He also mentioned it in lectures all along.

      Remember there were hearings and NYT has hundreds of photos, the WAPo has about 1000 and the Pentagon has 2000 plus videos.  Aside from all that eh New Yorker has...

      He will write about it, but he also called on memebers of congress whom he says know very well who his sources are, to contact those sources and find out that the story is as bad as can be.  hersh has described photos we have not seen yet.

      Now, who moves when is the thing to watch. And if they move. I am assuming that perhaps right after the Dem Convention some onemay roll with waht they have.

      Reminder, the defense attys in Bagadad have phtoos as well.  A major netowrk" was passed ''recent reports''rom the ICRC a few weeks ago and we have heard nothing on that.

      Waiting game, I assume first they roll with the women then the children, but when.

      But it cannnot wait much longer, I;d say no later than September, the Repub convneiton.

      I guess we have Gen. Boykin Rules of Engagement: our god is bigger.

      by Marisacat on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:03:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I wonder (none)
        is this what Josh Marshall keeps aluding to? Are senior members of both parties involved in a coverup going back several months? Could this be the scandal ready to break, that will shake our political culture to it's foundations?

        There's a hard rain gonna fall.

        without love, a hearbeat is just a clock marking time

        by Madman in the marketplace on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:31:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I keep coming back (4.00)
          taht there is a game of leverage going on, the reason that Hersh speaks very openly letting more and more out, but not printing, but on the record in the media.

          Something is going on but I can't exactly determinw aht... One clue was his early call in several interviews for Congress to ''talk to his sources'' and saying that ''they know who they are'' already.

          I am certain that Hersh has alll the cnfirmations he needs to print, but is purposefully waiting.  And leaving a trail so to speak.  European media has moved,print wise, the moderate English language ME print media has reported this, UNICEF has gone public, but Fortress America, soemthing is up.  Has to be leverage game.

          I guess we have Gen. Boykin Rules of Engagement: our god is bigger.

          by Marisacat on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:36:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  agree (none)
           I think this is exactly what Josh Marshall has been hinting at .
        •  Maybe waiting (none)
          for the GOP convention....

          The more I know the more I find I know very little.

          by michael in chicago on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:20:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The day before would be perfect (none)
            lead balloon "bounce" for the convention.  Instead of people paying attention to the Potemkin village performances there, the press and the people would be focused on this, and any GOP notable who was willing to talk to the press (and how could they claim to be too busy... at the convention) would be grilled about this.

            Sen. McCain, how do you feel about the latest information from Abu Ghraib?  Were you aware already that...?

            Sen. Hatch?  Sen. Miller?  Hello?

            The penalty good men pay for not being interested in politics is to be governed by men worse than themselves. -- Plato

            by ogre on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 11:19:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Read my mind about Marshall.. (none)
          ...but he never really had much inside info about Abu Ghraib, did he?  The Plame thing is his forte.

          ---
          This post is just a preview. Get the full effect at SpaceRook.com

          by TrentL on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 03:46:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I suspect he's waiting to confirm this with (3.50)
      multiple independent sources.  Hersh doesn't publish without checking and double checking.  He doesn't want a story like this to get dismissed because of careless reporting.

      "By focusing fear and hatred on the Tutsi, the organizers hoped to forge solidarity among Hutu." -- Human Rights Watch

      by a gilas girl on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:14:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  lots of other work to do to... (3.50)
        ...if he wants to do it right. Digitally disguising the faces of the victims, for one (why victimize them twice?). I wouldn't be surprised if he's had to do a lot of research into child porn law as well, so that he doesn't get arrested and the information suppressed on a politically motivated charge.

        "Salvation is by way of the truth, not by way of the fatherland" -- Chaadaev

        by sagesource on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:10:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Hersh... (none)

        Almost certainly has enough evidence to hit this one out of the park, if he's even mentioning it. You can bet he's holding off on publishing it until he's got enough to make it a grand slam - beyond any hope of criticism or spin.

        I sincerely hope this hits the news cycle right before the GOP convention and crowds them straight off the airwaves and into oblivion where they belong.

    •  Hersh Book Oct. 1 (none)
      Seymour Hersh's book is due out Oct. 1, 2004.
  •  Thousands of Pictures (none)
    Congress was provided with copies of thousands of pictures from Abu Ghraib.  It is not clear if these included the videos, although Hersh and others alluded to the fact that videos existed.  Our elected representatives who saw photos from Abu Ghraib that have not been made public returned from the viewing of these photographs white-faced and ashen.  Senator Lindsay Graham said that the photos included scenes of rape and worse.  Some weeks ago, I contacted my representative, Eleanor Holmes Norton, and asked if she had seen the pictures and whether they showed the rapes of women and children.  She did not respond. I think we should know.
    •  Yes but both (none)
      Delay and Hutchinson, as example, worked to dial back the horror.  Delay specifically said it was "like porno".  And kay Bailey H said it was unclear if what went on in photos with women was "forced".
      What a pair.  TX, their strata of it anyway.

      I guess we have Gen. Boykin Rules of Engagement: our god is bigger.

      by Marisacat on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:08:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  maybe delay's kind of porn (4.00)
        that man is pure evil so i'm not surprised if it just looks like "all-american porn" to him.

        but i think eafredei is on the right track.  we should be questioning our congresscritters agressively on this one.  letters are good, but won't hold their feet to the fire.  let's find public appearances and ask them. get their response on the record.

        AFAIC every single "outraged by the outrage" politico needs to be gone from public life.  we can give the republican base a chance to police their own like inhofe first - i'd be quite happy to start with joementum and the like who are defending torture on our side.

        we're rolling back the republican crime wave

        by zeke L on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:20:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Hutchinson (4.00)
        And kay Bailey H said it was unclear if what went on in photos with women was "forced".

        You know, even though I knew this would be the almost universal response to the rape of the women and adolescent girls I'm almost wordless with rage reading she said such a thing.

        Funny she didn't mention the screams of the children.

        People know about this stuff. My friends from Jordan, Lebanon and the one Kurdish family I know, they all know about this stuff now and have for some time.

        What will Lieberman say? Saddam raped more children so we're better?

        "...the definition of a gaffe in Washington is somebody who tells the truth but shouldn't have." Howard Dean

        by colleen on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:39:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  x (none)
          You know, even though I knew this would be the almost universal response to the rape of the women and adolescent girls I'm almost wordless with rage reading she said such a thing.

          I know what you mean, but let's face it, what else is there to say when women have been raped.  Its the universal response of apologists.

          "By focusing fear and hatred on the Tutsi, the organizers hoped to forge solidarity among Hutu." -- Human Rights Watch

          by a gilas girl on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 07:45:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Family Values Delay? (none)
        Wait, I thought Delay was a Family Values Republican?!!?  How would he know what "porno" looks like?  Don't Family Values men just fuck their wives missionary-style and part ways to their separate beds for the night?

        Might be worthwhile to put a mole in each of the porn-renting video stores near his residence, just to see if anything interesting pops up.  

        "In an abstract love for humanity one almost always loves only oneself." --Fyodor Dostoevsky, "Notes From The Underground"

        by Subterranean on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:55:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Caveat (none)
        Marisacat--

           I can't find any corroboration regarding this Bailey quote...I see her on the record saying:

        "There were some that were worse. A lot of them were what you've seen, which are pretty terrible. And some that are just irrelevant," said U.S. Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas. "It is something you wish you'd never seen and won't soon forget."
        http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/iraq/2566327

           There's some mild mention from some other people that there are photos American GI's (coed) engaging in stuff together, and while I don't doubt rape exists within the military, I know very well that it ain't all rape (having a couple female friends in the Army, one of which is getting married, another of which...well, gets alot of attention).

           It's important to quote accurately, lest we be misquoted.

        --Dan

  •  Markos (4.00)
    thanks for putting this on the front page.  Amazing how stories like this float around for months while the SCLM sits on its.... hands.... and doesn't give it the proper attention.  Hopefully this will now find its way into the general public consciousness.

    The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

    by mikepridmore on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:00:06 PM PDT

  •  Just curious (none)
    If Hersh ahs sene the videos, what is keeping him from releasing them?  Will his sources only "loan" them to him?

    From Baltimore County? Volunteer for the local party!

    by Lavoisier1794 on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:00:54 PM PDT

    •  Might Reveal His Sources (none)
      Seymour Hersh needs to protect his sources.  Whoever provided him with the Abu Ghraib photos probably stuck their neck out a good bit.  
    •  As Gustavo pointed out upthread... (none)
      there's some possibility that releasing such videos, or even admitting to possessing such videos, might get one in trouble under various child pornography laws.  

      Now, it seems to me-- though I'm not a lawyer yet-- that any reasonable interpretation of the First Amendment has to allow for media possession and distribution of tapes of horrific government misconduct, even if said misconduct involves sexual mistreatment of children.  But I can see how someone could read or hear about the currently binding Supreme Court precedents saying that child pornography involving actual children is unprotected by the First Amendment (Osborne v. Ohio and New York v. Ferber) and decide that he needed to spend some time talking to some good lawyers before he admitted that he had copies of the actual videos.  I'm not saying this is necessarily what's going on, but it strikes me as a possibility.

      •  It is evidence. (3.85)
        Further, it was made in a US prison in a war theatre.  Under the noses of the MI, as example.  So far the rach on this goes directly to Sanchez a 3 star.  No matter who they squirm this was a mil prison run by the mil.

        I think the gov is scared (utterly shitless) that when the full story comes out there may be no faith in any of the institutions.  Think of all that is shown to be rotten to the core over the nearly 4 years. From the SCOTUS onward.
        It did not start with BushCo, he exploited it as far as he could.  But if the nation was sane and whole much of this could nto have happened.

        I guess we have Gen. Boykin Rules of Engagement: our god is bigger.

        by Marisacat on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:03:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I imagine that in this case (none)
        That publicaly giving this material to thother media orgs just not showing it is covered under the 1st amendment.

        From Baltimore County? Volunteer for the local party!

        by Lavoisier1794 on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:37:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Law does not allow any exceptions (none)
        Current child porn laws do NOT grant any sort of exception for scientific research, journalism, etc, or even use in court proceedings (e.g., the government has prevented defendents from having access to the evidence against them in their very own cases).  

        An NPR reporter preparing a story on internet child porn was sent to prison a few years ago over material he had collected in the course of his research.

        Now, this is such a politically charged case, and the child porn angle so clearly incidental to the main story (vs the NPR reporter's situation) that it's a bit different, but it certainly wouldn't be a bad idea for Hersh to be careful until this really breaks.

        •  asdf (none)
          You're right and the Republicants would love to prosecute someone this way.

          The only problem is that the videos are US Government property and were made in US Government installations by US Government employees.  Technically having them is theft of government property. See the nice little problem here?  The state would be prosecuting you for having something the state made which violated a decency law.  Hmmm.  If they could pull that off then why not prosecute they Government employees who actually made the tape?

  •  Oh shit ... (4.00)
    Can it get any worse?  When will it stop.  Forget the politics of it all.  Just think of those poor boys and their mothers.  What have we done?
  •  Song to Play During the RNC (none)
    To the video that Sy Hersh will be releasing...

    [to the tune of "Stars and Stripes Forever"}

    "Our soldiers fuck little boys,
    while they're shackled in Abu Gh-raib!
    They scream while their mothers look on...
    It's for Freedom, and for Right!"

    ...he didn't make the mistake that some politicians do of wearing his religion on his sleeve. -Ron Reagan Jr.

    by easong on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:06:47 PM PDT

  •  do I understand correctly? (4.00)
    So Republicans are against gay marriage but for protecting perpetrators of male-on-male rape. Is there some piece of the equation I'm missing?
    •  I don't want to get all moral relativist... (4.00)
      But men raping children trumps men raping men.

      Don't ask me where I get this. It's in my DNA. The infliction of pain and suffering on a child is the greatest crime there is.

      Parenthetically speaking, it sickens me that whatsisface, the man who beat that child to death (I do my best not to allow the names of these monstrosities to stay in my consciousness), just got out of prison -- and people with drug offenses will serve more time than he has.

      Maryscott O'Connor -- Rage, rage, against the lying of the Right.

      by Maryscott OConnor on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:21:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Right (none)
        No need to explain.

        "Armando has never been for Clark. He's a party hack sent here since the beginning to work this blog. The objective now is to have us fall in line."-Clark blog

        by Armando on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 09:04:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yes!! (none)
        Right on, Maryscott. Crimes against children are the worst of all crimes. BTW, I know that some will say that since Saddam's crimes were much more extensive, that this somehow puts these horrors in "perspective". I know that Saddam's regime committed horrible crimes against children, but BY GOD I don't want my country--which I will love until the day I die--to EVER use that as an excuse. I want the number of American crimes against children to be ZERO.

        By the way, several former students of mine are in or have been in Iraq. In my heart, I know these young men would never be involved in such atrocities.

        I am holding back tears right now...

    •  missing term (none)
      yes, i believe the missing term in the equation is: IOKIYAR

      we're rolling back the republican crime wave

      by zeke L on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:23:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  So (none)
    where does supporting the troops come into this? Can this really be considered just following orders? Our own rape rooms? Really?
  •  Not Hersh, but in the New Yorker, (4.00)
    http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040712fa_fact

    this article, on what war killing does to the people who carry it out.

    Another horrific piece of the Bush picture.

    Promos for Amy Goodman/Democracy Now use a quote from Arundhati Roy that says something like, "You cannot teach people to kill, send them out to kill, celebrate that killing, and not expect them to bring it home with them."

    The numbers of returning soldiers with PTSD are huge. This will have a massive, negative effect on domestic society in coming years, in numbers of people variously disabled and in dollars expended. It won't be as significant as what we've done to the Iraqis, but it will be big.

    Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things -- Vice President Dan Quayle, November 1988

    by Mnemosyne on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:14:03 PM PDT

    •  Same Thing in the U.S. Prison Industry (none)
      When they built the maximum security facility at Pelican Bay, California, widely regarded as the worst systematic abuser of inmates in the state, the children of the prison guards (and there were a hell of a lot of them) started a crime wave in a sleepy little town that has persisted for a decade. Fear begets violence. Doesn't end when the guard goes home.

      ...he didn't make the mistake that some politicians do of wearing his religion on his sleeve. -Ron Reagan Jr.

      by easong on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:23:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  that one of the guards involved in the (none)
      abu ghraib abuses had been previously accused of abusing prisoners while working as a guard in the U.S. suggests a disquieting inverse of this soldiers bringing the violence home effect.
  •  What the Fuck? (4.00)
    What the fucking Fuck?
  •  This story is over (2.00)
    The media has moved on; once the media tires of a story, they very rarely return to it.  

    Nobody wants videos of boys getting sodomized playing in their livingrooms.  Gotta keep the masses sedated to sell them new products.

    It's a whitewash.

    Or, Hersh is full of it.  I find it stretching the bounds of credibility to believe that Hersh is just sitting on all this explosive material.  What's he waiting for?  Was his life threatened?  Can he simply not find any takers on the material?  

    "In an abstract love for humanity one almost always loves only oneself." --Fyodor Dostoevsky, "Notes From The Underground"

    by Subterranean on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:20:52 PM PDT

    •  Hersh is not full (none)
      of it.  The UN the ICRC and UNICEF all know about this, as well as legal groups inside Iraq... And congress, they ALL KNOW.  The evidence is literally all over. One of the first things Hersh said is with digital it is endlessly copied and passed around.

      I guess we have Gen. Boykin Rules of Engagement: our god is bigger.

      by Marisacat on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:43:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hear, hear. (1.70)
      Sy Hersh isn't the sole individual sitting on all this material -- Congress has in their possession the worst of it, and the press has the rest of it.  The brutal fact is, no one wants to release this material, and I am in fact sympathetic to that view.  What earthly good will it do?  If Bush weathered the first round of photos  (and he clearly has -- his dip in the polls was pretty slight after the scandal emerged), he'll survive the second round as well.

      Most Americans have responded to this whole business with, "Well, that's too bad.  They should prosecute those guys!"  If pressed on the subject, these same Americans will finally get irritated and say, "Who the fuck cares?  Whaddayou want from me?"

      I would advise my fellow liberals to not be so eager to have the media broadcast the screams of Iraqi children getting raped.  The misery of others should never be exploited for political gain.  Remember how outraged we all were when the Right tried to make the Berg beheading a political issue?

      My advice?  Let the whole Abu Ghraib thing go.  We're not really winning with it . . . mostly because Americans don't want to be bad guys, and if the Democratic ticket paints our own troops as bad guys, we'll lose in November.  

      "The thicker the hay, the more easily it is mowed."--Alaric, Gothic chief, outside the gates of Rome, 408 A.D.

      by Romulus Augustulus on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:50:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You are mistaken. I am sorry to (4.00)
        be blunt.

        Hiding information is always wrong when it bears on human suffering. Further, not all will deal with the truth fo this, but there are idiots day in and day out, but this needs to be made public.  For one it grows out of the US prison system.  It is not jsut the Iraqi war theatre. Hiding information got us into this f^cked and terrible war.
        Hiding infomration is why leadership on all sides in thsi country is miserable.  Yes, all sides.

        If we just limp along with this known to the entire world, in fully public fashion, but not made public inside America? NO that won't work.  It jsut won;t.

        I guess we have Gen. Boykin Rules of Engagement: our god is bigger.

        by Marisacat on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:56:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Don't underestimate . . . (1.28)
          . . . the easy ambiguity of the morals of the average American.  Speaking generally -- that is, of Americans as a whole -- when I say  "we":  "we"  have swallowed the Abu Ghraib business pretty easily.  "We"  have felt that it was a ghastly business, but c'est la vie.

          And  "we" -- or at least most of  "we" -- already know that some of our guys raped kids in that hellhole.  And  "we"  seem to be willing to soldier on anyway.  After all, we psychologically survived the near-extermination of this continent's aboriginies in the last century, didn't we?

          Humanity's a pretty rough crowd, and Americans are among the roughest.  All I'm saying is we shouldn't exacerbate the problem by exploiting any further torture videos for political gain . . . and, sorry, but I'm cynical enough to believe that that is the underlying motive for wishing this material to be made public.  It will make Bush look bad.  All well and good, but what about our souls?  Isn't enough to KNOW that horrible crimes were committed?

          "The thicker the hay, the more easily it is mowed."--Alaric, Gothic chief, outside the gates of Rome, 408 A.D.

          by Romulus Augustulus on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:09:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Photography has upset (4.00)
            those who need the truth hidden since it was invented.

            YOu are more ocncerned about maintaining eh morals of your "fellow" liberals.  Sorry that is transparent.

            This is based on the old issues of photographing the war dead, which goes back as far as war and phtoography.  The war mongers wish to hide the truth.

            Nothing you preach is news to me.  Read on for the others reactions to your post.

            I guess we have Gen. Boykin Rules of Engagement: our god is bigger.

            by Marisacat on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:19:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I didn't "know" that (none)
            and I hope to God it is not true.  Don't you see what Hersh is asserting - this was a type of terror and interrogation technique.

            "Armando has never been for Clark. He's a party hack sent here since the beginning to work this blog. The objective now is to have us fall in line."-Clark blog

            by Armando on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 09:06:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Scared, aren't you... (4.00)
            but what about our souls?  Isn't enough to KNOW that horrible crimes were committed?

            I don't know about your soul, that's your problem. I could not live with myself if this was glossed over, if the men who ordered and enabled this were allowed to live the rest of their lives without taking responsibility for their actions.

            I've never found denial, covering up war crimes and atrocities   and savages to stay in power to be particularly good for my soul. I'm not a republican though. Perhaps their souls are different.

            Even the Catholic hierarchy must agree that institutional or individual acceptance of the rape of small children isn't good for the soul.

            Wait a minute....

            "...the definition of a gaffe in Washington is somebody who tells the truth but shouldn't have." Howard Dean

            by colleen on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 09:58:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  From a psychological point of view... (4.00)
          when atrocities and knowledge therof is denied and Repressed, the reaction goes underground and erupts when one leasts expects it, usually in destructive ways.  Just because it's not talked about does not mean it magically ceases to exist.

          As horrible and as sick as this news is, we should confront that horror as squarely as we can and acknowledge its impact, less we be blindsided at some later date.

          I had a friend murdered by her husband, and the whole community had to go through this kind of shock/denial/acknowledgement of the horror and its impact.

          So what freaking white elephant do we want sitting in our culture's living room???   Not this bubble of evil.
          Let us not be silent.

          I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days will attack me at once. --Jennifer Unlimited

          by JOyODurham on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:32:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It's not a partisan issue (none)
          I think both of you misinterpret.  Torture is not a partisan issue.  It goes deeper than that.  The first wave of news essentially killed the Bush campaign in the spring.  It is probably the single thing that has most reduced his standing with the public.  The most recent news, which has still to reach them, will further diminish that standing.  

          The one place that it matters concerns the debate over the legal doctrine that the President has the authority to order torture, and that torture is excusable.  This is where the Democrats should strike.  A simple question to ask -- do you approve that memo and all that it implies?  And by the way, here is what it implies.  

      •  Yes/No. (3.75)
        I would advise my fellow liberals to not be so eager to have the media broadcast the screams of Iraqi children getting raped.  The misery of others should never be exploited for political gain.

        Yes.

        My advice?  Let the whole Abu Ghraib thing go.

        No.

        That is all.

      •  bullshit (3.71)
        The problem is the media and Bush&Co. got away with presenting this as a "few bad apples" when quite clearly this was this was policy .  Our troops are the bad guys, the civilian assholes in charge and ordering this sort of behavior are and they need to be held accountable.

        I don't need photos or videos.  Stories of it are appalling enough.  But we need to keep telling the stories until something is acutally done .

        Be a patriot, move to a swing state.

        by Sedge on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:58:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  whoops (4.00)
          that is I meant to type

          our troops are not the bad guys

          I question those who would do this under orders or not.  How screwed up did they have to get to act this way?  Not that it excusese the individual perpretrators, but part of leadership if responsibility for the failings of underlings.  

          Be a patriot, move to a swing state.

          by Sedge on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:00:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Orders or no... (none)
            I question those who would do this under orders or not.  How screwed up did they have to get to act this way?  Not that it excusese the individual perpretrators, but part of leadership if responsibility for the failings of underlings.  

            I'm beginning to realize that this isn't so much a discussion of individual morality vs. systemic failure as much as it is the extension of the same "bad intelligence" problem and the inability of the folks behind "Iraq Invasion, Inc." to understand anything outside of their own (falsely) constructed versions of reality and their well-established patterns and practices of making their versions "true".  Remember that all of this took place last fall, during the time before Saddam was captured and while the WMD search/scandal was still raging.  These guys were desperate to find both the WMDs and Saddam and so any steps were acceptable in extracting the needed information.  This wasn't about those children or the women, but about forcing their fathers, husbands, brothers into telling the Occupier what they wanted to hear (and needed to pass on to their critics).  Given that the information they wanted was false, the "extraction methods" had to be excessively heinous.  People can't lie and fabricate to the extent that the Bush Administration needed without a great deal of what the spooks and torturers like to call "incentive".  And in the Bush Co simplistically drawn universe, moral distinctions are made not in terms of deeds, but in terms of perpetrators and victims, i.e. whatever we do to the bad guys is justified since they are such deeply bad, bad guys. This is a product of the US WOT hysteria.  

            "By focusing fear and hatred on the Tutsi, the organizers hoped to forge solidarity among Hutu." -- Human Rights Watch

            by a gilas girl on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 02:02:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Wait a minute (4.00)
        Not letting this information out means that its much more likely to happen again.  This needs to get out, to be exposed to light.  We don't  have to see it or  hear it to have it talked about, exposed and universally condemned.  

          One of the reasons we have a free press is so that outrages against humanity don't occur.  Ignore the torture of children?  For the safety of  children in the future, that is a terrible idea.   That is more important than election strategy for God's sake.

      •  Let it go?? (4.00)
        Are you out of your mind?  Drink the kool-aid?  I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that  you are talking about short-term political strategy, and not the soul of the Republic.  I may not wave Constitutional protection for race slavery or Japanese internment or Native American genocide or Jim Crow in every political conversation I have, but it's part of our history, and now this is too.  

        We simply don't have the choice to "let the whole Abu Ghraib thing go" if we want to hold on to our current conception of the experiment Lincoln called "a new nation, conceived in liberty."  We are testing, yet again, and not for the last time, whether a nation "so conceived, and so dedicated, can long endure."  I humbly suggest that to "let the whole Abu Ghraib thing go" is to surrender.

        Loyalty comes from love of good government, not fear of a bad one. Hugo Black.

        by Pondite on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:04:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes -- short-term strategy. (2.12)
          I'm afraid I've created a little firestorm here -- sorry.

          Almost every liberal I know, and many of the posters on this site, use the Abu Ghraib scandal as an example of why George W. Bush should be removed from office.  Personally, I find it a little creepy that my fellow libs are all too willing to make this judgment.  It's like saying, "Ha HA!  NOW we got the fucker!"

          Problem is, you're not going to a find Presidential Order telling the National Guard, "Rape those kids, goddammit!  Fuck 'em!"  Problem is, Bush is not PERSONALLY responsible for these atrocities . . . for these SPECIFIC atrocities, that is.  Our presence there in the first place is another thing, of course.

          You may wonder why the Democratic ticket hasn't jumped all over this, as a hammer against Bush.  Well, because it wouldn't be wise.  Plus, it wouldn't be accurate.  Bush & his Neo-Cons may be credited for disdaining the Geneva Conventions, but that is still a long step -- believe it or not -- for directly pulling the trigger on rapes.

          "The thicker the hay, the more easily it is mowed."--Alaric, Gothic chief, outside the gates of Rome, 408 A.D.

          by Romulus Augustulus on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:20:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No that is YOUR spin. (4.00)
            This has been discussed here for months and that is not the take.  The take is HOPROR, andnot gotcha, that is your projection. If you are reading along iwth "your fellow libs".

            Sorry, yours is an old debunked argument.  As old as photography.  Old.  Debunked. Fellow liberals have moved on.

            I guess we have Gen. Boykin Rules of Engagement: our god is bigger.

            by Marisacat on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:27:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Moved on to what? (1.37)
              Why does the Abu Ghraib topic appear every five minutes on every liberal blog at which I lurk?  Why, if not to score some political points against Bush?

              I mean, I'm on your side.  I want Bush gone too, okay?  But if John Kerry likens Bush to a Nazi because of our National Guard's war crimes, Kerry will lose as sure as the sun will rise in the east.  Americans don't want to believe that their President is a Neo-Hitler, and they will repudiate the man accuses the Prez of being such.

              Atrocities go on every day in the world, atrocities that make Abu Ghraib look like a root canal.  I suppose we feel worse about this one because our guys are involved, but many on this blog aren't old enough to remember Vietnam.  This sort of thing is old news.  I guess when you've lived long enough, it's hard to get worked up over much of anything.  One gets tired, you know?

              In the meantime, Abu Ghraib is a sure-fire political loser . . . for us.  Your average American will simply put his/her fingers in his/her ears and go  "Na na na na na I'm not LISTening na na".  I guess I just take issue with your point that the Abu Ghraib scandal, re: political gain for Dems, is old news and that you've  "moved on" . . . when I see that it's the headlining thread on DailyKos as of this writing.

              "The thicker the hay, the more easily it is mowed."--Alaric, Gothic chief, outside the gates of Rome, 408 A.D.

              by Romulus Augustulus on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:45:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No. YOur take is simplistic (4.00)
                uninformed and it furthers both apologist stances and it smacks a bit of furtherance of the agenda of the other side.  Perhaps that is not your purpose, but is the outcome.

                Very sorry.  Blunt again.  We disagree.  
                YOu are not a long time poster here, and even if you read every day and only posted but the small number you have, you have not engaged in this conversation and your impressions do not fit this site and its reactions....   And if you choose to see and be offended by the aoppraoch and the understanding of this enormous issue at this site, well, that leaves an issue for you.

                I was alive and aware for Vietnam, so can that one. Harkin and the tiger cages... Lt. Calley and that was only the atrocity that made headlines and a courts martial.  
                Your post, this one in partcular, is offensive in that it is very shallow in response to an issue of horror, and you seek to say this is a "loser" issue for the Dems.  It appears you parse and preach silence for success.  

                Where else you go and to whom you speak I do not know, nor much care.

                I guess we have Gen. Boykin Rules of Engagement: our god is bigger.

                by Marisacat on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:58:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  wrong, wrong, and wrong (4.00)
                it's not about scoring political points. it's about justice and morality.

                though you're also wrong about the effect abu ghraib has had on people's perceptions of the shlub. it's hit a lot of people very hard. especially in the "moral clarity" crowd.

                and i have to say i agree with m-cat about "fellow liberals". you're pretty transparent here. you clearly don't get it, in so many ways. but here you show up all of a sudden, trying to tell us this item is a "loser" so stay away.

                you're right it's a loser - for all americans. if we don't confront it and take care of it, we're all lost and it really doesn't matter who wins in november.

                i really don't think there's much point in the rest of us discussing it with you.  if i thought we could get through your manipulative cynicism there would be grounds for dialogue, but i can't see that happening on an internet board.

                enjoy your violent fantasies while they last.

                we're rolling back the republican crime wave

                by zeke L on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 09:00:33 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I guess I'll let it go.... (1.88)
                  ... I've only went on about it because I was under the foolish impression that I wouldn't be attacked as a troll for simply agreeing with Subterrean's post that the  "story was over".

                  I'm not really taking offense at anything -- it's a blog; who gives a shit, right? -- but you guys really need to learn how to debate without resorting to ad hominem attacks.  Just a suggestion.

                  I simply toss out an opinion, which is nothing more than to say that Americans are uneasy with the Abu Ghraib business, and are likely to cling to the President in a defensive gesture if the Dem ticket chooses to hammer on the subject.  I basically agreed with the original poster that the media has lost interest . . . possibly because AMERICA has lost interest.  The result? -- I'm branded a man with a  "rotten conscience"  who has  "violent fantasies".  (Worst of all, a secret conservative in the bargain!)

                  Ever wonder why you feel marginalized by the Mainstream blah blah?  Try a little more politeness, next time.  And consider that blogs -- even liberal ones -- should be willing to listen to anyone's opinion without resorting to personal attacks.

                  Anyway, we're on the same side, whether you like it or not.  I wish you all well.

                  "The thicker the hay, the more easily it is mowed."--Alaric, Gothic chief, outside the gates of Rome, 408 A.D.

                  by Romulus Augustulus on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 09:21:50 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  ad hominem? (none)
                    i responded to your post on its content below, and you decided not to engage. instead you chose to try and snipe about.  the more you post the more you reveal that you are not honest about who you are.  i checked your comments. i stand by my assessment.

                    if you want to engage on the ideas sometime, i would welcome the discussion.  

                    not that i'm sorry to see you go tonight.  if it wasn't clear before, being busted and leaving in a self-important huff just confirms it for us.

                    good night, sir.  don't forget your hat.

                    we're rolling back the republican crime wave

                    by zeke L on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 09:30:36 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  ad hominem is your ridiculous attack on motives (none)
                    "Every liberal I know" -- that can't be many, or you just aren't honest.  "every five minutes" -- well, the latter, certainly.

                    You're tired of reacting to the world's horrors.  Fine, then go away and leave be the rest of us who can still feel something.

                  •  Troll alert. (none)
                    The question marks about you were growing in my mind as I read through this portion of the thread, but this post answers them all. The hallmarks are all there.

                    How soon shall we be presented with yet another droll "Troll Confession" diary? To speed up the process, let me point out that Aaron Gillies has written up a convenient template for this genre that will, I'm sure, save you a lot of trouble.

                    Accountability. Without it, there is no democracy.

                    by Canadian Reader on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 09:04:20 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  nobody is suggesting that Kerry run an ad (4.00)
                with President Bush's head superimposed on PVT England's body. Looking at this primarily as a campaign issue is all wrong.

                What people are suggesting - what I'm suggesting - is that we must know the full truth, the full extent, in this case, of the crimes that have been committed in our name, and why.

              •  Wrong (3.85)
                Marisacat is doing a fine job of demolishing your argument in terms of morality and ethics, as well as debunking your attempt to contextualize this so as to make is seem less gruesome and horrific than it really is.  But in terms of the political/electoral efficacy, let me add that when the Abu Ghraib story finally broke in the mainstream, it was among the oldest voters that it was most powerfully felt, and in general it's among older voters that the descent in Iraq has created the greatest reaction and revulsion.

                People who grew up with the notion that American atrocities are not something we shrug off and attempt to ignore are the people who are still most repulsed by the brutalities and degredations at Abu Ghraib and Baghram and wherever else the Bush administration, either overtly or with a bureaucratic wink and a nudge, gave free reign to the evil impulses that infect the hearts of oppressors and people with absolute power over other human beings.  It's why we're supposed to have checks and balances in environments like prisons, and it's why it's so predictable that, in a largely lawless institution like Abu Ghraib of last Oct-Jan, you would have torture and brutality.  Older people grew up with the memories, either personal or still culturally fresh, of the horrors of the Nazis, the brutalities of the Bataan death march, the vague knowledge of Stalin's "collectivization" of the Kulaks that killed millions.  We thought we were better than that, so when Calley and the photo of the napalmed girl and the other images and stories came out of Vietnam, it was more devastating for people for having punctured what by then had become a smug belief in our moral superiority.  

                We sometimes are morally superior to our military and political enemies, and older voters still remember when that was an unchallenged (and for many an unchallengable) assumption.  Vietnam ended that delusion, and for older voters, it's not a world-weariness or passive acceptance that brutalities and degradations like what happened at Abu Ghraib are the cost of doing business in world affairs.  No, they're a searing reminder of having been conned yet again by politicians who sold us a war as a moral crusade, and then they put our young men and women in situations where they succumb to the same evil impulses against which we were supposedly going to prevail.  That's eliciting incredible anger in many of these folks, and maybe, for not dissenting earlier, some real shame.  And to talk about what's going to be electorally effective, you have to acknoweldge the potentcy of that shame, and the complicity that attaches to anyone who hopes to lead our country who would disuade people from feeling justified in possessing that sense of national shame.  

                •  Forget politics (3.80)
                  This is so much bigger than that.  Who are we?  asked Hersh. Who are these people that have us doing these things?

                  I imagine I sound like Pollyanna to some but dammit this is not America.  Is it?

                  "Armando has never been for Clark. He's a party hack sent here since the beginning to work this blog. The objective now is to have us fall in line."-Clark blog

                  by Armando on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 09:34:48 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I Assume You Understand... (4.00)
                    ...that I'm arguing that political gain is secondary to what's right and wrong, but even in terms of political gain the above poster is incorrect.

                    It's not only ethically wrong, it's not even a position that would provide an amoral political advantage.  It's wrong and stupid, not an appealing combination.

                    •  I'm not even paying (none)
                      attention frankly.  I guess that's my point - I can't see arguing political strategy on this.

                      Hersh is doing what he does. The SCLM is doing or not doing what they do. Dems are doing or not doing what they do.

                      For me, and I guess it shows my naivete, I'm still in a state of shock.

                      "Armando has never been for Clark. He's a party hack sent here since the beginning to work this blog. The objective now is to have us fall in line."-Clark blog

                      by Armando on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 10:01:47 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Unfortunately Armando, (none)
                    I imagine I sound like Pollyanna to some but dammit this is not America.  Is it?

                    It is, AN America (there are many, of course, not just one).  And this is part of that history, part of the ugly side of the Iraq invasion that was visible here at home in the run-up to the invasion. There is as much inhumanity in our America as there is glorious promise, we just excel at turning our heads away from the indicators.  America is complex and always has been.  

                    "By focusing fear and hatred on the Tutsi, the organizers hoped to forge solidarity among Hutu." -- Human Rights Watch

                    by a gilas girl on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 02:14:03 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  superb, DH (4.00)
                  don't know whether mr little-augustus last-caesar is still within earshot, but we really do owe him some thanks for inspiring some great responses to the idea that americans should just "get over" abu ghraib.  yours and marisacat's notable among them. (you too armando.)

                  we're rolling back the republican crime wave

                  by zeke L on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 09:42:13 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Every five minutes? (4.00)
                Really?  

                Look, as a former philosophy student I have to say, we're entering the realm of totally unproven and unprovable allegations once you start talking about intentionality.  It seems you think the choice of subject matter on this site works like this: since we are against Bush, given a subject X that is not good for Bush, politically, our interest in said subject only exists insofar as the subject harms Bush.  I've heard this sort of argument before - the old "Bush-bashing" canard - and it strikes me as fundamentally nonsensical.  Why would I be against Bush if he wasn't, to overgeneralize, doing a lot of harm to the country I love and betraying certain ideals we hold such as.. democracy and the rule of law?  Why else would I be against Bush?  If it weren't for that, he's just a guy like any other.

                What I'm saying is, and I guess I'm going to sound like a mushy liberal here, basically I believe most of us are here first and foremost because we're concerned for the health of our democracy, and not primarily because we're against the SOB and his cabal who are currently threatening to wreck it.  I suspect this will be quite evident when Bush is sent back to Crawford after November and this site keeps on growing instead of disappearing in a puff of smoke once Bush is no longer around to chalk up points against.  

                I think you look at peoples' motives quite differently than most liberals do.  Perhaps I see the average Joe on the street and am wary of his actions and wont to think he is only out for himself, but this is, after all, a self-selecting community.  And I don't think a group of mostly liberals and progressives really only care about horrific abuses committed by our government - utternly sickening human rights abuses - simply because they might advance us one more move on some abstract political chessboard.  

                The emperor has no brains.

                by daria g on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 12:17:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Are you deaf and blind? (4.00)
                "Why, if not to score some political points against Bush?"

                Because people are horrified that their nation is responsible for such activities.

                "when I see that it's the headlining thread on DailyKos as of this writing"

                The headline was Sy Hersh's speech about sodomizing children, which is news to most folks.  Sheesh.

              •  Nazis? No.... (2.00)
                I mean, I'm on your side.  I want Bush gone too, okay?  But if John Kerry likens Bush to a Nazi because of our National Guard's war crimes, Kerry will lose as sure as the sun will rise in the east.  Americans don't want to believe that their President is a Neo-Hitler, and they will repudiate the man accuses the Prez of being such.


                If a comparison with the Nazis were made, you would have to note that any Nazi who behaved to the Jews (and others) as the American soldiers have to the Iraquis would have joined them in a concentration camp.  While the Nazis wanted to exterminate Jews, Gypsies and Homosexuals, they did not permit not perform such acts as have been performed in Abu Graib.  The only thing that the perpertrators of both crimes have in common is that they claimed to me "only following orders".  As pure and simple fact, the Americans have behaved in a worse manner than the Nazis.  There is no escaping that....

                Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae But remember, please, the Law by which we live, We are not built to comprehend a lie. We can neither lov

                by Truckle on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 02:21:59 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Worse crimes (none)

                  Murdering women and children by gas, bullets or starvation is worse than raping them.  The number of dead and violated has some relation to the evil of the deed as well.  

                  Hopefully we'll never know if Bush is another Hitler.   There are many lesser dictators and evildoers to whom he could be more accurately compared.  In domestic terms, he'd be somewhere past Hugo Chavez but not quite Echeverría (who ordered the Tlalteloco massacre in Mexico City).  Abroad, he'd be closer to Pinochet and gaining on Slobodan Milosevic.  

                  •  Hugo Chavez? Perhaps you've read too much SCLM (none)
                    Chavez is a dictator the way Allende was a dictator.
                    •  Chávez, Allende (none)
                       
                      I'm not saying that Chávez is a dictator, but some Venezuelans worry that he's well on his way to becoming one.  Sound familiar?  
                      •  Some rich Venezuelan elites. (none)
                        "I'm not saying that Chávez is a dictator, but some Venezuelans worry that he's well on his way to becoming one."

                        That's not what you said -- your post did not refer to what "some" Venezuelans think, but rather to what you think.  I don't trust anyone who uses the word "some" that way, or who disowns what he writes the way you have.  What do you think of Chávez, and why?

                        "Sound familiar?"

                        Don't be coy; if you want to say something, just say it.

                •  worse (none)
                  is as unproductive an argument that one can enter into when discussing war crimes.  Its that kind of thinking that the likes of Bush and Perle and Wolfowitz and Sharon thrive on for their brand of xenophobic militarism to catch hold.

                  However, your point that the Nazis did not engage in this kind of sexualized torture (mostly out of the worst kind of racist disdain) is an important one and duly noted.

                  Therefore I felt compelled to rate your post a "3" since I don't think it deserves to be completely marginalized.    

                  "By focusing fear and hatred on the Tutsi, the organizers hoped to forge solidarity among Hutu." -- Human Rights Watch

                  by a gilas girl on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 02:22:02 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Pastly valid (none)
                    However, your point that the Nazis did not engage in this kind of sexualized torture (mostly out of the worst kind of racist disdain) is an important one and duly noted.


                    Not just racist distain but distain for homosexuality.  I do agree however that my post was/is not a particularly productive one.  And apologies, as this is not one either.

                    Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae But remember, please, the Law by which we live, We are not built to comprehend a lie. We can neither lov

                    by Truckle on Fri Jul 16, 2004 at 07:14:47 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Our broken society (4.00)
                Romulus Augustulus said, "In the meantime, Abu Ghraib is a sure-fire political loser . . . for us.  Your average American will simply put his/her fingers in his/her ears and go  "Na na na na na I'm not LISTening na na..."

                I've been mulling over what broke in our society since the Abu Ghirab torture broke and 1/3 of the American people were able to rationalize that torture and continue as if nothing happen. I saw more of this behavior when some of the far right was saying in the last week that cancelling elections was fine with them.

                We have tens of millions of people in this society that now believe American torture and totalitarianism is fine with them. Do you know what problems that is going to cause in the coming decades in this society?

                We have to shame these indiviuals out of these beliefs. Eisenhower marched German civilians through the concentration camps so they would not be able to deny the horrific crimes the Nazis committed in future decades. That act has prevented the holocaust deniers any ground to perpetuate their hate speech.

                We have to march our entire society past the evidence of these American crimes as well. We need to shame those who support American neo-conservatism at any cost. Neo-cons must have their belief paradigms of innocence shattered. They must be forced to deal with the real-world consequences of their actions.

                •  What do you mean "in the coming decades" (4.00)
                  We've had them for a long time.  Have you ever listened to a discussion about prison reform, about the draconian drug laws, about the death penalty in this country?

                  Have you heard your fellow citizens discuss the deaths of immigrants coming across the Texas and Arizona borders in closed containers?  Would you like me to tell you what your fellow citizens have said to me as I've demonstrated and fliered and tabled against the Iraqi sanctions that killed so many Iraqi children and escalated the hardships on Iraqi citizens throughout the 1990's.  Have you heard what war supporters said about those of us that protested the plans for invasion in the spring of 2003? Have you heard what young men say to and about the women who refuse their sexual advances?  Have you ever listened to your neighbors talk about gays and lesbians? For that matter, have you ever been in a male locker room these days? Or to a college fraternity party?

                  I've been on a lot of college campuses in my lifetime, and to enough backyard barbeques in the "nice suburbs" and I can tell you, this is not a problem for the future.

                  Violence and the demonization of "others" is a very consistent thread that runs through our society and has since before we've even been a country.  

                  "By focusing fear and hatred on the Tutsi, the organizers hoped to forge solidarity among Hutu." -- Human Rights Watch

                  by a gilas girl on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 02:32:21 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Why, indeed? (none)
                Why, if not to score some political points against Bush?

                Because people are outraged about it?  Its far broader than a political scorekeeping exercise.

                "By focusing fear and hatred on the Tutsi, the organizers hoped to forge solidarity among Hutu." -- Human Rights Watch

                by a gilas girl on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 02:06:02 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  You're wrong, but I agree with you (none)
                I think the reason you're seeing Abu Ghraib and the torture discussed so much on the blogs is because it is a huge "gotcha" for the morality/values junk put out by Bush & Co, and also because we're all wrestling with how fellow Americans could do this.  

                Both reasons lead to lots of talking about it, but the second is especially important - as decent people we're horrified, and in some way it is as though something we believe in has died.  We're in mourning - and we're working through it.  And we don't have closure; the full public exposure and discussion, let  alone any investigation or trial.

                But don't think this isn't impacting lots of non-bloggers.  Those I talk with are just as thunderstruck as I am.  (I don't talk with Rush, and he's clearly an exception, thinking this is just dandy.)

                You're right there are lots of atrocities around the world every day, but this one speaks directly to our morality and actions as the superpower in the world.

                You are also right in the sense that what gets public attention is distorted.  We kill 10's of thousands of people each year through medical errors, car accidents, etc but having 3,000 people die on 9/11 causes vastly more upheaval in what we talk about and do.  Maybe the focus on Abu Ghraib is because it conveys such a terrible story about what Americans value, and we all feel that.

                But how this gets rolled out is incredibly important.  I am nowhere near skilled enough to know how to do it, but I know it will be like handling dynamite.  Kerry has a particularly tough job of deciding when to comment and finding a way of avoiding blowback; you're right that certain kinds of attacks on Bush will not work.

          •  bull (4.00)
            "Problem is, Bush is not PERSONALLY responsible for these atrocities"

            Yes, he certainly is -- there were his personal directions regarding the Geneva Conventions, and explicit White House policies that translated into interrogation techniques used in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantanamo.  Bush is personally responsible for waging the war that led to these events, and for covering up the scandal, trying to pin the whole thing on "bad apples", and proclaiming that Rumsfeld is "doing a superb job".

            So to hell with your pathetic apologetics that would make Hitler innocent of pushing Jews into ovens because he didn't personally do the pushing  or write an order that included the word "oven".

          •  Why Are Trolls So Stupid? (none)
            Can't you folks dig up a smart one.  One not so obviously BLATANT?

            Give it up...

            You'll lose..

            You're already MARGINALIZED.....

            Not Bush's fault.....

            Don't play the screams of raped kids....

            It is so obvious the Bushies are leaving skidmarks in their underwear on this.

            And the more the little trollys tell us not to go there, the more scared I know they are.

            You fuckers give yourselves away EVERYTIME.

            So again I ask, why are trolls so stupid?  

            Is it genetic, ya think?

            You can't always tell the truth because you don't always know the truth - but you can ALWAYS be honest.

            by mattman on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 06:58:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I don't want the videos released (none)
            for political gain. I want them released, with the hope, however slight, that the perpetrators will be brought to justice.
            And, no, Bush did not personally perpetrate these crimes, but his lawyers did write the infamous memo allowing him to ignore the Geneva Conventions and Congress.
            You might argue that he never saw that memo, but that would mean his lawyers are out of control.
            I personally think he knew.
            Whatever. This happened on his watch, and he bears at least SOME culpability for it.
            we can quibble about what % of this tragedy is Bush's responsibility, what % is the soldiers', what % is the commanders', etc, but all evidence needs to be put out there into the light of day.
            This nation has a HUGE dark side, and it has been allowed to get that big because of denial. we as a nation have to finally face our wrongs.
            that is the only we way we can ever have a hope of healing our national soul.  

            "this will be our reply to violence:to make music more intensely, more beautifully, more devotedly than ever before." --Leonard Bernstein

            by Minnesota Deb on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 10:30:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  asdf (none)
            Here's the thing.

            The Iraqis know.  They know already and they've told others.  Our enemies are using our own propaganda, videos and pictures against us.  They know.  Why did they shell Abu Ghraib 6 times?  (The most recent one, IRC, was this week.)  

            Are you familiar with the Nuremberg trials?  Many Nazi's were hung and they themselves never killed a single person.  But they were in charge and they knew or should have known.  

            You don't have to say "OK" to rape or torture to be guilty you simply have to let it happen.  Sometimes you can be guilty because you should have known but didn't -- you should have known and should have done something but did not.    

            No the SecDef may not be guilty.  But someone above the rank of Sergeant surely is.  

        •  ignore him, he's a troll obviously (3.00)

          Hark! Hark! the Clarke!

          by Errol on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 09:12:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  not a troll (3.66)
            here we go again - we were discussing this on kid oakland's diary last night.

            trolls are the types who don't carry on any kind of real discussion, they just spew vituperative nonsense.

            little augustus here isn't one of those. disingenous, yes.  clearly he doesn't share either liberal or american values.

            i don't think there's any point in discussing things with him further, but he is polite and talking to us. engage him or not as you like.

            but everybody please refrain from zero ratings - even if it's only to preserve the responses to his atavistic cynicism.

            we're rolling back the republican crime wave

            by zeke L on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 09:20:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  He's not a troll, just confused. (none)
          •  sock puppet, ignore it (none)
      •  republic, not empire (4.00)
        that may be a fine and pragmatic morality for an antique roman, but as a liberal and a christian it is completely repellent to me.

        i have no desire to see any more of this footage on TV myself, but the only way for us to have any hope of becoming the good guys again, the way we imagine ourselves to be (rightly or wrongly), is to fully understand the evil we are capable of.  not confronting it only allows the evil to propagate and metastasize.  

        all of those guilty - all of them - even to the highest levels must be publically prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. and if we have to hand general officers and higher over to the hague, that is what we must do.  if we don't, we are not a nation of laws.  we will have become the evil empire, and will be remembered that way by history.

        fiat justitia ruat coelum

        we're rolling back the republican crime wave

        by zeke L on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:06:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  No (4.00)
        The videos need to be released.  This is beyond politics.  This is a f*cking war crime.  Justice needs to be served.  Human decency trumps all political considerations.

        God help us all.

        We will stand for the rule of law, for the liberal tradition handed down to us from the Founding Fathers, or we will stand for nothing at all.

        by quintic79 on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:07:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Political gain? (4.00)
        You're the one talking about letting the prison sex thing go because we're not winning with it.  To me this isn't about winning, it's about seeing those responsible brought to justice, for the good of our country and also because the slime who decided not to adhere to the Geneva Conventions must pay.  

        If those Iraqi's thought that playing the screams of their children on TV would remove Bush from power, I'd be surprised if they didn't support it.  Sometimes it's about more than politics, and this time it's about right and wrong.  We're right, they're wrong, and they must pay for being wrong.  

        I don't have any kids, but I can tell you that if someone kidnapped by dog and sodomized her, and the police refused to do anything, I'd hit the nearest weapons store and load up on guns.  That's just for a DOG!  These are children we're talking about, not even possible for them to be insurgents.  Let's see the pundits spin rapes of young children as "extracting information from dangerous Al Qaeda terrorists".  

        There's no way congress would act on this, the repugs are all party zombies and the democrats are generally spineless twits.  Even if one the democrats with a set came forward, like Pelosi, all the others would pile on to rip her apart.

        The media is all that's left.  Maybe Hersh is waiting to time his new article with Kerry's campaign, God I hope so because if this shit floats downstream out of sight, our country is no better than the worst of them.

         

        "In an abstract love for humanity one almost always loves only oneself." --Fyodor Dostoevsky, "Notes From The Underground"

        by Subterranean on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:08:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What a sad outlook.... (none)
          and what's sadder is I agree with you. We went to war and everyone is fighting for some mild finger-pointing to remove themselves from any responsibility. Name me one person in Washington DC that says "The Iraq situation is my doing."  You won't find that in the city of 'leaders'.
      •  Let's see ... I don't agree with you (4.00)
        imagine we had a porn movie showing the sodomization of young boys (children) and someone would dare to complain and ask to prohibit the broadcasting of such material.

        I am sure we would hear a lot of voices defending the values of freedom of speech and with it the request to allow the broadcast of such material via internet or CDs etc.

        We don't want to be the bad guys, who limit the freedom of expression, it's none of our business what people see in their privacy of their homes and get a kick out, right?

        Now we have the same acts on video (just taken under different circumstances, but who cares) and we know for a fact the people who recorded  those acts on video did get a good kick out of it, feeling all powerful and dandy to be in a situation where they had some "good justification, legalized by the authorities" to produce some "killer porn" video.

        For sure we will hear a lot of voices defending the decency and values of the American people and with it the prohibition to broadcast those videos, showing the same thing as the porn videos, whose broadcast they all would protect in a heartbeat, as long as they were made for financial profit and not for political reasons.

        The fact that this material doesn't leak out and the TV media are such corporate coward entitites, who whorishly "sanitize" their broadcasts from all truthfulness to not embarrass the public moral conscience, is the true shame in all of it.

        I am all for limiting porn broadcasts for profit. I am certainly NOT for SURPRESSING and LIMITING the broadcast of real sexual abuses, that were recorded for whatever disgusting purposes, if they represent the truthful violence of sexual abuses that actually occured.

        How more rotten can your moral and ethical conscience become?

        "History is cluttered with the wreckage of nations and individuals that pursued the self-defeating path of hate." - Martin Luther King

        by mimi on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:39:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Pretty rotten, I guess. (2.50)
          But it's not really MY conscience I was referring to, but to the average American's conscience.  They just don't give a tin shit.  If they did, Bush would've been impeached or would've falled victim to a Tuilleries-style revolution by incensed mobs.

          I'm merely talking the political realities.  The very first poster of this thread said, "The story is over", and as far as I can tell, he's correct.  High-minded moral self-righteousness won't change the fact.

          But if the sound of screaming Iraqi children suddenly changes everybody's minds in this country, I'll be sure to eat some humble pie on this website.  Until then, I'll take my rotten conscience with Kerry and Edwards -- each of whom have treaded as gingerly on this subject as mice in a room full of rat-traps -- to victory.

          "The thicker the hay, the more easily it is mowed."--Alaric, Gothic chief, outside the gates of Rome, 408 A.D.

          by Romulus Augustulus on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:55:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You have spun yourself (none)
            beyond making sense in this and the previous post.  Of course K/E will nto be furthering this.  
            It is for the media and congress and the various NGO in theatre, the UN and UNICEF.  I am sorry, you are naive and poorly informed.

            To be frank you wish to sound as though you are adult, but I wonder, you sound younger and younger. Certainly young politically.

            I am leaving side conversation now, nothing to be gained here in this back and forth.

            I guess we have Gen. Boykin Rules of Engagement: our god is bigger.

            by Marisacat on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 09:04:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Your mouth should already be full of humble pie (4.00)
            The revelation of Abu Ghraib resulted in a big dip in Bush's ratings.  Your claims about "the average American" are both ignorant and full of ridiculous hyperbole -- revelation of Abu Ghraib had an effect, but not so extreme as impeachment, and French-style revolution would be an extreme over-reaction.  The moderate effect of the revelation is largely due to the fact that Bush, with the help of the SCLM, spun it as "bad apples" -- his direct policy responsbility is unknown to the average American (who doesn't read this blog) due to the machinations  of the propaganda machine.  Even so, Bush took a big hit.  And revelation of sodomized children would result in a bigger hit, and a better chance of bringing the war criminals, all of them, to justice (and that is why we want to "get Bush" -- because he's guilty of crimes against humanity).

            I know it's a tough thing to accept, but the reason so many people here disagree with you is because you're wrong.  Your facts, your reasoning, your claims about motives, and your moral tone -- or lack of it.

          •  I agree with you here -not for the same reasons (none)
            though.

            If this story "is over" then because there are no video clips and images broadcasted all over the place showing the abuse has occurred the way it was verbally already stated.

            The only and real question to ask is: "Where are the video clips and images that prove the extent of the abuse?"

            If they don't exist, we shouldn't make a big story without having proof. If they do exist, we need to know, who hides them and why. Then we have to decide to kick people out of office or bring the to court, who support hiding the proofs of a crime. That all has nothing to do with "party politics", IMO.

            "History is cluttered with the wreckage of nations and individuals that pursued the self-defeating path of hate." - Martin Luther King

            by mimi on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 06:27:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Uprated because (none)
        I think you're totally wrong, but whoever gave you a troll rating for this comment was being ridiculous.
      •  You're very very confused. (none)
        The right try to use the Berg video to justify and excuse American torture.

        Most Americans (but perhaps not you) did not say "Who the fuck cares?" -- rather, they were horrified.  They would be far more horrified at this, as would others who buy into Limbaugh's BS about "frat hazing".  And that higher level of horror would fuel getting to the bottom of who is responsible, not just for doing this, but for allowing it to happen.

        As for painting "our own troops as the bad guys", that's exactly what the Bush admin has done, passing the buck as always.

        •  Not most Americans (none)
          A large minority of Americans think the torture was a good thing.  They support the war and think we need to kick ass in the mideast and they don't really care where, I suppose because they can't tell brown people apart.  This group is represented by such personas as Limbaugh, Coulter, Savage, ect., and by the reckless drivers in pickups adorned with obnoxious bumperstickers like, "Let's Roll!", and "Proud to be an American".  

          Just look at congress.  Where do you think all those hillbilly congresspeople come from?  Who votes for them?  

          I know it not nice to think about, but America is heavily populated with raging assholes, more-so than most other industrialized nations (and non-industrialized, I suppose).  Angry White Males, NASCAR dads, Traditional Values Voters; these are all euphemisms for redneck asshole misogynist racist bigot homophobic bigots who live luxurious lives replete with material possessions, and yet constantly bitch and moan about everything under the sun.

          "In an abstract love for humanity one almost always loves only oneself." --Fyodor Dostoevsky, "Notes From The Underground"

          by Subterranean on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 10:23:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Please (3.33)
            You know, some of the folks with pickup trucks and bumper stickers and such, well.. look at the name, "Traditional Values Voters."  These people have values that they grew up with and that are important to them.  Sometimes a clash of values can be extremely aggravating because you reach a point where communication just breaks down.  

            But I grew up in a hillbilly part of the country and let me tell you, we do not have a monopoly on "raging assholes" by any means.  In my experience we have far, far less of them per capita than Washington DC.  I suppose I've encountered my share of ignorant frat boy asshole guys, but I have no idea which ones are the bigots, which ones are the racists, which ones are the homophobes, and which ones are the race fans.  It's amazing how we can make up what other people think without asking them.  What is your justification for promoting such a crazy stereotype?  

            The emperor has no brains.

            by daria g on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 12:42:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ever been to Orange Co. CA? (none)
              I guess not. The guilty neo-cons aren't "hillbillies." They come from ever corner of the country.

              I'll just give a quick example I remember from when I lived in SoCal. The Irvine CA police were heard answering to "N.I.I." calls from police dispatchers and other officers. A reporter finally decided to find out what the "N.I.I." call was. After a few weeks of research, he found out what that call was and published the findings...

              It was "N*gger In Irvine."

              •  Hmm (none)
                I didn't say the neo-cons were racist hillbillies.. Perhaps you misread?  I agree with you that these people are found everywhere.

                No, I've never been to Orange County, and from what I've heard it's not exactly first on my list of vacation spots..

                The emperor has no brains.

                by daria g on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 10:43:08 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  DC (none)
              I have lived in Washington, DC for 14 years.  Trust me when I say that the biggest of the so-called raging a-holes in DC are imported.

              Please don't be so quick to pound on DC.  It is literally representative of America.  The real DC is composed mostly of poor African Americans.

              -- Jim

              •  I've lived there too (none)
                In the U District, Petworth, Cathedral Heights, and Glover Park at different times.  I love DC, it's my favorite city in the world and I plan to move back as soon as possible.  Maybe I'll try Shaw or near Chinatown this time, U St is too expensive now.  But I do find that in an urban environment, wherever you go, people are on the whole more quick-tempered and less pleasant than they are out in the country.  The poster above concocted this ridiculous stereotype of "hillbilly" people and blamed them for all the social ills and asshole behavior in this country, which I think is not only highly inaccurate, it's just as bigoted as he claims "they" are.

                The emperor has no brains.

                by daria g on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 10:35:39 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  arithmetic? (4.00)
            If those Americans who think torture is a good thing are a minority, no matter how large, then a majority do not.  Sheesh.

            And even among the groups you named, many do not think that torture is a good thing.  That's why folks like Limbaugh insist that it wasn't torture.

          •  "hillbillies" (none)

            Having grown up with some "redneck asshole misogynist racist bigot homophobic bigots", I can assure you that many of them do not live "luxurious lives replete with material possessions."  Many got an second-rate high-school education, were regularly "whupped" by parents and paddled by teachers and brainwashed into thinking that it was good for them.  Too often, they now do unpleasant and demanding work for low wages with  RAMRBHBs bossing them around.  They watch their children do without college (unless they join the service and nobody whacks them) and often medical care -- forget about braces.  Half their days of rest they lose their morning to some cleric (who may well enjoy a luxurious life) bawling hellfire and obedience at them then demanding a tithe of money for the church.  Politicians and the rich folks on the church board (who pay the pastor) strive to deflect their reasonable anger to a convenient outsider instead of the corrupt politicians, stingy employers and corporate monopolies that cause most of their grief.  

            And we are hardly alone in having large minorities of proto-fascists.  France went 15% for Le Pen, the British National Party has seats in the Parliament, and the Canadian Conservative Party has quite a few wingers in their ranks as well.

      •  While I can't say I entirely agree with you (none)
        The release of these videos will obviously make the chance sof us ever being successful in Iraq and completely ruin what is left of the US' reputation in the middle east (whether the President is Bush or Kerry).  Of course we should punish those repsonsible and get the fact sout there, but broadcasting teh soundtrack as some have suggested might not be a good idea.

        From Baltimore County? Volunteer for the local party!

        by Lavoisier1794 on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 10:32:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It sounds like (4.00)
          you think the rest of the world doesn't already know this (or soon will). If our entire gov't, our military, our rapidly-increasing 'enemies', our victims, and our fast-fading allies all know about this, what possible purpose is served by trying to keep it quiet* here???

          *AKA the 'mushroom treatment' -- kept in the dark with frequent applications of bullshit.

        •  You miss the point (4.00)
          They--the Iraqis--already know this.  All they lack are the last shreds of evidence.  But they know it.  There are people who were violated, and others who are witnesses, and people who were sending messages out begging their loved ones to come and kill them.

          Dear god, read that.  Imagine getting a message from someone you loved dearly telling you that they begged you to come and kill them.  Out of love and mercy.

          And we're worried that hearing the soundtrack might do some harm?  Excuse me, what do you think the attacks on any soldier or puppet government official are about?  They're rage.  

          And until we lance and drain that abcess, admit that it's ours, and do the job of scrubbing out the pus... there are many people who will continue to hold every last god-damned one of us accountable for what happened.

          For them, and for us, we desperately need to force America to face up to this, and to deal with it.

          Or it's no different (and it probably isn't) than the Germans who dusted the ash from the concentration camp ovens off their homes daily, and pretended not to have any idea.....

          You may be able to hide your head up your ass and pretend that it's a nice, warm pleasant place.  I can't.

          The penalty good men pay for not being interested in politics is to be governed by men worse than themselves. -- Plato

          by ogre on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 11:37:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I doubt every Iraqi has heard about it.... (none)
            Although A large portion probably has.  But in other Arab countries they probably haven't.  I don't want to cover up facts, I just dont think it might be very bright to actually release the videographic evidence.  As many of you have said, a picture is worth a thousand words and can indeed do a lot of damage.

            If the US had admitted to the Abu Ghraib abuse publically and vigorously went after all those responsible (all the way up to Sanchez if warrented) as soon as it was discovered, the public and Iraqis might have been satisfied and the picturees which no doubt drove many to the insurgency might not have come out or had less impact when they did.

            From Baltimore County? Volunteer for the local party!

            by Lavoisier1794 on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 11:14:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Given that Al-Jazeera (none)
              is extremely popular throughout the Arab world, you can be sure that most of the Arabs have heard about these things.  We're not talking about New Guinea head-hunting tribes that have never seen white folks here.  They're not backward, ignorant and uneducated.

              TV and radio and the newspapers are well attended--and diverse.

              Granted, yes--you can find some Iraqis who haven't heard about this.  But... betcha that a solid majority have.

              The penalty good men pay for not being interested in politics is to be governed by men worse than themselves. -- Plato

              by ogre on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 06:35:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Eager (none)
        I would advise my fellow liberals to not be so eager to have the media broadcast the screams of Iraqi children getting raped.

        Eager my ass.  

      •  Germans Didn't Want to be Bad Guys (3.00)
        Because Germans during WWII didn't want to think of themselves as bad guys, they ignored information that might have created cognitive dissonance.
    •  Norwegians (4.00)
      Read last week (at Tom Tomorrow?) that the Norwegian government has lodged a protest over the child rape issue. So no, it not just Hersh.
  •  Okay, now I'm freaked out. (3.33)
    Did anyone else notice story entry URL ends with /666

    crawls under blanket

  •  I really hope this is not true (none)
    It's too horrible to consider. But if it is true, I want the entire admin frog marched to the Hague and executed.
  •  Can I compare Bush... (4.00)
    to Hitler, NOW?!?

    I am so utterly embarassed to be an American.

  •  For anybody (3.66)
    that doesn't think that we have a dark side as dark as anywhere else, get your head out of your ass and start smelling the roses, and realize that people are people everywhere and evil comes in all forms.
    There is as much evil in Wash as there is in Bagddad, and until we face up to this reality we will continue to support and allow such atrocities as this.
    America, we are not the good guys, we are just as flawed as our adversaries, we just don't know or admit it, YET!
    PEACE!
    ABB&B!!!
    KERRY/EDWARDS 2004
  •  Contacting Kerry? (none)
    I wouldn't complain at all if we had an organized campaign to get Kerry to speak out on this. Perhaps we should wait until Hersh has written the story, but...
    •  Not Kerry (none)
      He's the LAST democrat to have break this story.  We need someone who doesn't mind ending their career, because that's exactly what it would entail.  Nobody ever got elected president by telling Americans that they're known as child rapers abroad, it's not a winning sound-bite (however true it may be).

      "In an abstract love for humanity one almost always loves only oneself." --Fyodor Dostoevsky, "Notes From The Underground"

      by Subterranean on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:16:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Rove's working overtime on recruiting (none)
    fundamentalists because they're the only ones who might possibly forgive BushCo for this monstrosity. But if the videos become widespread, Rove forgot that fundamentalists have children too. Does Rove have any children? How 'bout Rumsfeld?
  •  RANT: ZERO TOLERANCE FOR CHILD TORTURE. (4.00)
    The act of torturing, killing, maiming, or raping a child is infinitely worse than the visitation of the same on an adult--and I don't even remotely support torture.  

    Kids don't have the emotional tools to come through this shit.  Cliched, but true.  Thus, the same act visited on a child is a greater crime.  Nebulous, I know, but something that I believe very powerfully.

    But it's worse in a concrete way, too.  I do not support torture in any way, but you have to understand that the people who were doing this must have justified their torture of the adults as follows:  "These guys are terrorists.  They are our enemies.  They know things that we need to know to defend ourselves.  Therefore, anything we do to get that information is justified."

    Pure rationalization, but there is a rationale, however shaky, however morally bankrupt, however short-sighted, however wrong-headed, however foolish, however sadistic, however destructive, however inhumane.

    The thing is, what do kids know?  What information are you going to get out of a kid?  How many Americans did these kids kill?  Or if--as I can hear you gearing up to remind me--the object was to get the parent to "confess" by hurting and humiliating (raping!) the child--where does it stop?  These soldiers were causing psychic pain to two people, and very concrete physical pain to one, for the dubious purpose of extracting hypothetical (and likely nonexistant) information from the parent.

    There can be no--I repeat, no--adequate excuse for visiting these horrors on minors, on persons who cannot be expected to have any knowledge of military use.  And certainly not if that rape was an act of purely ancillary insignificance:  "We're gonna rape this kid to horrify that woman to break her spirit to get her to tell us everything she knows even if it's only all the mundane things anybody would know, the names of her family members, the size of her family, how long she's been married, if her husband is still alive or if he died in one of the many recent conflicts in Iraq, the name of the street she lives on, her age, the price of groceries in her home town, where she works (if she works), how much she takes home as an annual wage, what she thought about Saddam, what she thinks about George Bush, does she know the pledge of allegiance, does she love America..."

    This is absolutely insane behavior.  Torture is wrong.  It is evil.  It is sadistic.  It is almost never justified.  (I say "almost" because I can almost see the "torture one man to save a city" rationale.  Almost, I say.)  But this.

    Torturing kids to break their parents?  

    It's insane.  Absolutely insane.

    I want to see heads roll.

    Lots of them.  

    Yesterday.

    •  Even more wrong (none)
      because the kids aren't the center of it, the kids are just means to an end here, the means being getting to the so-called "terrorists".

      Its punishing children for who their parents are, while removing their humanity completely. Exactly what we accuse the terrorists of doing: collective punishment, guilt by association and the dehumnization of people for political/military ends.  

      "By focusing fear and hatred on the Tutsi, the organizers hoped to forge solidarity among Hutu." -- Human Rights Watch

      by a gilas girl on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 02:37:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  History will show (3.60)
    This is the Bush administration's core value.  Once and forever, means justified by ends.  Government of a banker's heart. Make those at the bottom pay.  So much pressure to get the results they wanted, by any means necessary.  

    When you run for President, you should play to your base, not to swing voters--that's why Democrats lost all those elections--Gov. Howard Dean

    by sharkstooth on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 07:51:27 PM PDT

  •  I can't help but think... (3.75)
    ...that this represents the point at which America has jumped the shark.
  •  Who is it? (none)
    I'm well aware that this won't make any difference to the victims, and won't absolve the U.S. of any responsibility, but does anyone know who was actually perpetrating these acts of sodomy?

    I recall hearing something about this at some earlier date, and that while the torture scenes with which we have all become familiar all involved American captors, my recollection is that the rapes were perpetrated by Iraqi personnel.

    Does anyone remember hearing this? Does anyone know if it's true?

    It will make a difference in the impact the story has, and might explain some of the failures of the media to report it. Might as well be armed with the facts about it.

    •  That was one story leaked (4.00)
      early on.  Considering all the aspects to this and all the people involved and knowing about this, I owuld not rely on that being the end all, or the last story.  Even in that sotry, the US guards were filming.

      I guess we have Gen. Boykin Rules of Engagement: our god is bigger.

      by Marisacat on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:07:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't know what to believe. (none)
        How can I, given what we're being told now? I don't know which way is up anymore.

        But the truth is that it will make a difference to some people if American personnel are not committing these acts. And if there's nothing evident in the videos that proves that Americans were doing the filming, it has that much more trouble breaking through.

        If those aren't Americans in the video, we're going to be accused of being all kinds of crazy.

        We'll still be right, but that's what we're looking at. Somehow, in their minds, it "won't count."

        •  I don't know how old you are. (4.00)
          I recall you were very dogmatic, rigid, in the primaries.  
          Follow this story as it unfolds.  Follwo it all the way for years.  You will learn the long arc of an intense and complex story.  It sits at the tip of the whole history of the country.  really it does...

          Then you will begin to be able to recognise early on how to follow stories, in the early short arcs, in a story at the very heart of nation.  The long arc truth will prove out your gut on the short arcs.

          Or ignore my advice.  But that is how I learned.

          I guess we have Gen. Boykin Rules of Engagement: our god is bigger.

          by Marisacat on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 09:13:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Marisacat, This is Uncalled For (none)
            I don't see anything in Kagro X's posts on this to indicate any heartlessness or effort to minimize the effect or seriousness of this issue.  It was a legitimate question, not one that would lead to a minimization of the offense, but a serious and legitimate question about how this is likely to play.

            Besides, I think you've been perceptive and extremely well-informed on the Abu Ghraib story, and I also think you yourself were occassionally "dogmatic, rigid, in the primaries."  The second point has no inherent connection to the first, so it's a non-sequiter on this subject.

            But maybe we're just too young and naive to understand this, huh?

            •  To Think This Is Still On Going. (none)
              My.  But I notice an interesting new poster, now that I am in this thread, so there is collateral payoff.  

              DH, I had a father and he was not authoritarian:  I do not respond to the model when it is ushered out.

              My post is clear.  I am not the one left saying, "I don't know what to believe" after many weeks since the Hersh/CBS/AG/ICRC/Toguba break approx. Apr 29, following a year of leakage.
              I leave it at that.

              I guess we have Gen. Boykin Rules of Engagement: our god is bigger.

              by Marisacat on Fri Jul 16, 2004 at 12:35:25 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Are you out of your gourd? (none)
                I am not the one left saying, "I don't know what to believe" after many weeks since the Hersh/CBS/AG/ICRC/Toguba break approx. Apr 29, following a year of leakage.

                Is that what you're hanging your hat on? A cliche?

                You seriously believe that my statement can fairly be taken to mean that I would defend dismissing the allegations of rape altogether?

                Come on. Get off it. That's ridiculous.

              •  Ongoing? (none)
                Hmmm.  

                Time elapsed between Kagro X post and Marisacat's resort to ageism = 52 minutes

                Time elapsed between Marisicat's resort to ageism and my reply = 25 minutes

                Time elapsed between my reply and Marisacat's insinuation that my post is an example of something, undefined, as "ongoing" = 1,617 minutes

                Relevance of one's father, invoking authoritarianism to deflect a request for simple courtesy and respect and to not resort to ageism, cryptic allusions to unnamed posters = unknown

                Resort to literal interpretation of a cliche' = addressed by Kagro X

                Marisacat's decision to not concede an honest mistake of interpretation or at least ignore the complaint, but instead make a failed attempt to wound with a unclever bon mot= disappointing

          •  Processing... processing... (4.00)
            I'm really not sure how to take this, Marisacat.

            I appreciate DHinMI springing to my defense here, but frankly I don't know if I recognize a message coherent and pertinent enough in this particular comment to concern myself with.

            You don't know how old I am, that's true. And I'm not at all sure that the reference to my age is necessarily an insulting one. But I'm also unsure exactly what it is about asking who the perpetrators actually were and how that might or might not be used by apologists to blunt the impact of the story that would lead you to assume that I can't follow the arc of a story.

            I can't even begin to fathom why dogmatism or rigidity during the primaries ought to be of interest to anyone, even if it were true. For the sake of argument, I wouldn't mind seeing you defend that remark, though. Unless you think that a failure to back Howard Dean is evidence enough. Res ipsa loquitur, as it were. In fact, I refrained from stridently backing anyone here on dKos, and ended up voting for Edwards in the Virginia primary. The only rigid position I recall occupying was that the Howard Dean phenomenon had a lot to accomplish and a lot to prove before I would accept it as the Revolution. My hesitancy had a lot more to do with mechanics than with ideology.

            The only other thing I can think of is that you're taking my turn of phrase, "I don't know what to believe anymore," more literally than I had intended. I do know what to "believe in," which is entirely different. And I know what I "believe" about the small parts of the story we know so far. But arc or no arc, there's nothing we know about this story so far that's so rock solid with respect the facts I inquired about that it would justify, for instance, the nonsense I got from gogol, below. Perhaps he feels better for having seized the spotlight of righteousness, but I still don't know the actual answer to my question, and neither does he.

            But in any case, I should think that 36 years and having learned about the "arcs" of stories a the knee of my father, a Vietnam-era draft counselor and public defender might suffice, in terms of minimum basic skills.

            That said, I'm not sure where in your comment you actually answer my question. It sounds like sage advice, to be sure. But not like an answer.

            •  She wasn't insulting you (none)
              You misread her comment, which is not about you, but about our history and how we learn it.

              Several posters have made the same point.  We are not talking white noise here -- this goes to the heart of what we think we are as a nation, how we define ourselves, both for ourselves and our children. The torture, the Gulags, the assertion of Presidential sovereignty, the evident disregard at the top of our administration that law is a binding constraint, all that is part of this discussion.

              It's not about you.

              •  But she wasn't answering me, either. (none)
                Actually, I thought I was pretty clear about hedging my bets on the question of insult.

                Though I'm not sure how else to take the accusations of rigidity and dogmatism. But I don't think they have anything whatsoever to do with the question I asked or the discussion we're having.

                What you've added to the conversation is, again, thoughtful, but not particularly relevant to my question. If we take it as a given that "we are not talking about white noise here," and all the rest, what does that tell me with respect to who it was that was doing the raping?

                Everyone wants to give me a metaphysics lecture, but nobody wants to tell me who did it. They all want to give me the Noam Chomsky treatment about what the meaning of the word "did" is.

                There's a simple answer to the factual question out there somewhere. I'm with ya on the meta. But what are the facts?

                •  on the information (none)
                  that's currently available to us here and to the general public, ISTM nobody's answering your question because nobody here knows the answer yet. I think some of us reacted to the speculative part of your post -- the 'what-if' it wasn't Americans who physically perpetrated child rape (just allowed/watched/filmed it) -- and I do understand what I took to be your fear that if so, many Americans would take that as a "get-out-of-jail-free" card. I don't think there are many here who think that is acceptable, but I'm inclined to believe that the 40% would indeed jump at the chance to salve their vestigial consciences this way. Maybe it's a good thing to be forewarned about this possibility, and discuss it in the context of preventing such an idea from taking hold.
                •  I'm at a loss. This happened at Abu Ghraib (none)
                  but you don't know whether Americans did it?

                  If you want to know how far up the chain of command it went, read Sy Hersh's New Yorker articles, or wait for his book (someone said due in October).  But the news reports on position papers and executive orders on torture and interrogation techniques make it clear that responsibility goes all the way up the chain, to the very top.

                  •  Thank you, excellent idea. (none)
                    See my response below. It was Sy Hersh's May 17th article in the New Yorker that mysteriously led me to believe that Americans may not have been the ones commiting these acts of sodomy.

                    The language is kind of tricky, but I have to admit that I fell for the part where Sy wrote that, "The officials said there also was a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys."

                    I can't imagine why I would make such a foolish mistake. In fact, one might say, "I'm at a loss."

              •  Except of course (none)
                the part of about him/her having been rigid and dogmatic in the primaries.  That was about him/her, I'd have to say.

                "By focusing fear and hatred on the Tutsi, the organizers hoped to forge solidarity among Hutu." -- Human Rights Watch

                by a gilas girl on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 02:46:05 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Who is it? (none)
      Lemme get this straight Kargo X.
      You are arguing  (or have heard?) that the Iraqis were in charge of, and running Abu Ghraib October 03 through January - February 04, or any time post US invasion of Iraq?

      Well I guess that we were never there, and the Iraqis didn't even notice we are (were) there.

      In any event, I guess it's time to pack up and go home.  The Iraqis were in charge all the time (more true than some  would admit), and the US is getting set up by Chalabi&co for war crimes.

      What a relief!

      Where do we send the two hundred  billion plus dollar bill?

      I feel so much better, Kargo X. Thank you.

      •  You just couldn't resist, could you? (none)
        I knew it. I just knew that if I dared to ask for basic information about the facts of the events, someone would be unable to resist the temptation to grandstand about it.

        God, what a shame. And here we so often deplore the same tactics in Republicans.

        Brief refresher on my actual words, my very first ones, in fact:

        I'm well aware that this won't make any difference to the victims, and won't absolve the U.S. of any responsibility

        You are dismissed. Do not try this again.

        •  American-run prison, American MI & MP ... (none)
          You say you "recollect" that "Iraqi personnel" performed these rapes.  Perhaps you could offer some evidence for that claim, and explain how it is that prisoners taken by and held by Americans are being raped in American-run prison, or why this "will make a difference in the impact the story has", or how it "might explain some of the failures of the media to report it", or why you might think "we're going to be accused of being all kinds of crazy".  You're not just asking questions, you're making all sorts of bizarre assertions, and rather than not knowing what to think, you seem to have a quite well-developed framework for your thinking.

          As for "grandstanding", methinks thou doth protest too much.

          •  O, thinkest thou so? (none)
            Yes. I do so "recollect."

            I should so like to offer you harder evidence for that claim, but at the moment, I can only offer you this: Marisacat, above, in this very thread, herself acknowledges that such a rumor was leaked early on.

            I can't (and don't) comment on the value or validity of that rumor. Only on the fact that I recollect it.

            I also think I've been more than clear about why I think the rumor, which Marisacat apparently believes is now discredited, would make a difference in the impact the story has. I believe that if it were conclusively proved that the rapists themselves were Iraqis -- or Martians, for that matter -- a significant and insensitive portion of the American populace, who prefer reality television to reality, would rationalize the scandal away as somehow "not our problem."

            I prefaced everything I said with this. But apparently, I had to swear on a stack of Howard Deans in order to be taken at my word.

            •  Not discredited. (none)
              Simply not the whole ''story''.  Even in the first versions, the American guards were filming the Iraqis who worked for the... US in a mil prison system.  All party to the job at hand.  The thing of it is, there is more to come.
              So far we have an "official story" with sub texts.
              It is a matter of following this thru the long arc.

              I guess we have Gen. Boykin Rules of Engagement: our god is bigger.

              by Marisacat on Fri Jul 16, 2004 at 01:09:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  'we're going to be accused of all sorts of crazy' (none)
              Now you say that a significant portion of the populace will rationalize it away.  I love the way some people rewrite their position after someone responds to it.  It's no wonder that you "don't know what to think".
              •  I'll tell you what. (none)
                I'll simply accuse you of being all sorts of crazy. You're wilfully blinding yourself to what I've been saying all along.

                Yes, I fear a significant portion of the populace will rationalize it away. You don't think Rush Limbaugh is going to try to convince them to do so?

                Why don't we lay it all on the line here, jgb? You show me what position you think I rewrote, and we'll go. Game on. Your ball.

          •  Oh, you might be interested in this aside... (none)
            from Sy Hersh's piece in the New Yorker of May 17th, "Chain of Command":

            http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040517fa_fact2

            NBC News later quoted U.S. military officials as saying that the unreleased photographs showed American soldiers "severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi prisoner, and `acting inappropriately with a dead body.' The officials said there also was a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys."
            •  Like I said, American-run prison, American MI/MP (none)
              I appreciate your response to my request for evidence that the rapes were done by Iraqis, but it misses the broader point.  I asked you to 'explain how it is that prisoners taken by and held by Americans are being raped in American-run prison, or why this "will make a difference in the impact the story has", or how it "might explain some of the failures of the media to report it", or why you might think "we're going to be accused of being all kinds of crazy"'.  You now say that "a significant and insensitive portion of the American populace, who prefer reality television to reality, would rationalize the scandal away" but it is your rationalizations that are at issue.  Since you "don't know what to think", I'll tell you -- Americans and American policy are clearly responsible for what goes on in American prisons by Iraqi guards hired and supervised by Americans under an American occupation.  And Iraqis performing the rapes has nothing to do with the explanation of the failure of the media to report it -- as if the U.S. corporate-controlled media would be more inclined to report this story if it had been American personnel.
              •  Let's. Do. This. Again. Slowly. (none)
                Is there something you'd like to accuse me of? I'd prefer you just said it, rather than play this coy game of wilfully misinterpreting everything I say. It's more than a bit wearisome, and I think we'd all just rather hear it straight up.

                I'm glad you appreciate my slam-dunking the central tenet of your complaint. I appreciated the opportunity to do it. Onwards and upwards from there.

                1. How it is that prisoners taken by and held by Americans are being raped in American-run prison?

                By invitation, I assume. My guess is that as lax as regulations were at Abu Ghraib, it wasn't someplace that your average Iraqi on the street could stroll into to sneak in a quick rape before breakfast. Have I said otherwise elsewhere? Show it to me.

                Why will this make a difference in the impact the story has?

                Because wingnuts are desperate to deflect any blame for the disaster of Abu Ghraib, and my fear is that they'll try to say, "Look, the 'Blame America First' crowd says it was our beloved troops who did this, when it was really Iraqis!" And the fact that it was done at the invitation and under the direct supervision of American troops is an abstraction they'll pretend not to understand. (But I see that particular form of myopia knows no ideology.)

                How might the possibility that the perpetrators were Iraqi explain some of the failures of the media to report it?

                Because some of the media are as much a bunch of cockeyed right-wing apologists as are the people I anticipate latching onto the pisss-poor excuse I outlined in answer to the previous question. Plus, their dingbat editors may be thinking, "Who cares, if it was just a bunch of filthy Iraqis?"

                Why might I think "we're going to be accused of being all kinds of crazy?".

                Because that's what wingnuts love, more than anything else, to say about us. We're "crazy" because we don't see the problem the only "real" way there is to see it -- for its face value and nothing else. They'll say, "You want to pin this on Americans, but the plain fact is that it was the Iraqis." Try as you might to explain the concept of responsibility to them, they'll simply hold their hands over their ears and say, "Lalalala, I'm not listening to you (you commie)."

                I now say that "a significant and insensitive portion of the American populace, who prefer reality television to reality, would rationalize the scandal away."

                Yes? I stand by that. That's what I've been saying from the beginning.

                Is it my rationalizations that are at issue? Very well then, name them. I'll discuss them. Name them. Time's a-wasting.

                I also note that, like Marisacat, you hang your hat on my use of the cliche, "I don't know what to think." Please, God, tell me this buffoon is joking when he tells me he'll tell me what to think. Please, tell me he's pulling my leg!

                Ahhh, no such luck. "Americans and American policy are clearly responsible for what goes on in American prisons by Iraqi guards hired and supervised by Americans under an American occupation."

                Oh, wait. He is telling me what I think! What a miraculous coincidence! Of course, you'd think that since I had been saying that from the beginning, he'd have caught on, well... from the beginning. But apparently he has someone to impress, or some liberal bona fides to establish.

                But wait, there's more! "Iraqis performing the rapes has nothing to do with the explanation of the failure of the media to report it -- as if the U.S. corporate-controlled media would be more inclined to report this story if it had been American personnel."

                Hmm, a sliver of hope. It's as plausible a thought as mine. Of course, he thinks it's been handed down as truth from on high, and that makes him a little bit of a lunkhead, but a lovable one nonetheless.

                This has been a collossal waste of time, jgb. I'll continue it for it's entertainment value, though. Just to see how much straw you can stuff into that man you're building up.

                •  Willful misrepresentation of every thing you say? (none)
                  This is the way you "start again"?  F-off, a-hole.
                  •  Is that what we were doing? (none)
                    Starting again? I didn't realize that. Seriously.

                    It looked to me like all your quotations back to me, your insistence that I'd missed "the broader point," your stress on things "your rationalizations," and of course, your continued insistence that I literally "don't know what to think" (and that you could tell me) was just more of the same.

                    If it wasn't, I can accept that. Let's start over, because this is crazy.

                    1. I believe that regardless of who perpetrated the rapes, we are responsible. I have no doubt that it wasn't a bunch of Iraqi freelancers who proposed dropping by the prison to commit some rapes in their spare time.
                    2. I believe that if we'd really like to hold all involved responsible, for instance, for war crimes, it will make the very questions I've asked here absolutely necessary.
                    3. I believe that right wing apologists will not agree to numbers one and two, and further that they will believe that the fact that Iraqis may have perpetrated the rapes will provide them some sort of cover.
                    Concessions I am perfectly willing to make:
                    1. That my guess that the fact that the rapists might be Iraqis might not have anything at all to do with the lack of media coverage. This is not at all central to what I'm talking about, and is only one of a million possible explanations. I don't need it, and it's getting in the way. You have another theory, and it serves me just as well, and I'm willing to accept it.
                    2. That once you get to the punishment stage, there is no need to separate the act from the responsibility for it.
                    Concessions I am unwilling to make:
                    1. That a legitimate legal process under which one might punish the offenders (both rapists and their collaborators) can afford due process without establishing the facts of the case.
                    2. That I believe that apologists will reject a conspiratorial view of the acts, and seek to minimize the American role in these atrocities.
                    3. That the acknowledgement of the facts is still easily separable from apologia.
                    I think that's pretty straightforward.
                     
  •  The SCLM (3.75)
    Could play this story 24/7 and there would still be over 40% of this country who would either:

    .. refuse to believe it
    .. blame the SCLM
    .. wouldn't care

    Quite frankly, I've lived in the two most conservative states in the nation all of my life, and understanding the right's mindset, they will reject virtually any evidence, no matter how heinous, which portrays the GOP in a negative light.  (Of course, most are very pious Christians who, IMHO, actually view the GOP as a surrogate golden calf of sorts).

    As far as those Americans that are still sitting on the fence regarding the occupied White House, if these folks haven't been persuaded by the relentless stories (albeit sanitized) about the fraud and deceipt that has been perpetrated on this country, I doubt that this story will do any more to sway their opinion about the nightmare that continues.

    Such tragic times.

    "Self-respect is the keystone of democracy"

    by neverontheright on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:04:07 PM PDT

    •  That 40 % is gone (3.66)
      forever.  And why this is a dangerous country.  Many countries have a hard right or a reactionary side or a small rightist religious movement.

      We have an aligned and identified 40%.
      It is why I consider leaving.  I don't think that 40% of the electorate will be getting smaller.

      They are certifiable and ripe for demogoguery and dictatorship.  They also would turn on us in a heart beat.

      I guess we have Gen. Boykin Rules of Engagement: our god is bigger.

      by Marisacat on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:14:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Eisenhower marched Germans through death camps (4.00)
        Eisenhower marched the German civilian population through the death camps to ensure that so many Germans had witnessed the results of German atrocities that denying those atrocities would be impossible in later generations.

        We must do the same here in the US. Neo-cons must see the end result of their actions so they cannot deny their crime in the future. Their belief structure needs to be shattered and brought back into a realistic world-view.

        •  Quibble (none)
          Eisenhower and the Americans didn't march anyone through the "Death Camps," as we didn't liberate or occupy the territory of any of the six "Death Camps" (Auchwitz, Belsecz, Chelmo, Maidainik, Sobibor and Trebilinka), all of which were located in modern-day Poland.  Many people died in the transit, work and concentration camps liberated by Americans, and some camps, such as Dachau and Mauthasen, even had cremetoria.  But the "death factories," where people were taken to be mercilessly slaughtered with industrial methods and efficiency, were farther east, in what became the Soviet sphere of influence.  

          I know it may seem like a pedantic nitpick, but since Holocaust deniers seize on semantic opportunities provided by innocent misuses of the terminology, I'm a stickler for percision on this subject.  

          Finally, your general point is a good one, and I hope nobody takes this comment as detracting from your basic argument.

          •  "Death camps" fit in the subject box (none)
            I originally tried typing "concentration camp" and I think I got to "concentration c" before I ran out of letters.

            Ooops.

          •  Marching Germans past corpses (none)
            Marching Germans past corpses did not really bring about any changes in attitudes.  In the immediate aftermath of the war, there was vast disbelief among Germans in the "realities" of Nazi Policy,  even given US Occupation Policy of publishing pictures and detailed descriptions, and such attitudes actually strengthened in the wake of Nuremberg -- the Victors Justice Trials as they were frequently called.  Very little changed during the first decade of West German self government.  

            Things began to change in the 1960's when a culture of asking difficult questions emerged, Novels such as Grass's Tin Drum and films by Fassbinder offered a younger generation, uncompromised by participation in Nazi culture and organization, the space to raise questions that had been forbidden in earlier years.  It is not necessarily the dominant culture in Germany today (Afterall, the East hardly participated in it,) but it is healthy enough that it must be accounted for in all parts of the political and social realm.  

            If there is anything Americans should look to for example in Germany it is how long it took, and how hard it was to convert a society of guilty bystanders into an authentically engaged one. My own sense is that the new outlook really only began to mature in the late 1960's.  

            •  A great deal has been written showing that (none)
              everyday Germans knew what was going on, even if they didn't know all the details.  How could they not know, when Jewish stores were smashed, Jews wore armbands, Jews were rounded up and disappeared from communities?  The Germans who live through this did not disbelieve what was happening in front of their eyes, any more than Americans disbelieved segregation and racial prejudice.  Rather, they rationalized it.
              •  Yes, A Great Deal Has Been Written... (none)
                ...and I've read more of it than most.  I'm not a scholar, but I did read a hell of a lot of this in college, and I've maintained a serious interest in the subject since then.  And I've read enough to know that the Kristalnacht, Goebbel's "big night" when Nazi thugs broke store windows of Jewish-owned businesses across the Reich, was a complete disaster.  It was in part because of the shocking lack of enthusiasm for that very public attack on Jews that the Reich began concealing it's policies against Jews.  In fact, what was happening to Jews didn't generally happen before German eyes, for there was a several-year, incremental process of margainalizing Jews from society so that by the time of the physical destruction, Jews had been removed from society.  

                Yes, of course there was plenty for Germans to have seen and known to inform them of what was being done to Jews during the period from 1933-1945.  But almost all of the worst atrocities against Jews were perpetrated far from the eyes of Germans, in Poland, in the Baltic nations, in the USSR.

                Yes, there were probably a couple million Germans who had a pretty good idea of what was happening to the Jews, but almost all of those people were either in the Wehrmacht, the SS, the state bureaucracy, the railroads, in construction, or with one of the main corporations (like I.G. Farben) that were intimately involved in the camps.  But people in Germany would probably know things only if they heard from people from one of the above groups.  

                •  You obviously haven't read enough (none)
                  "I'm not a scholar"

                  Indeed not, and your comments carry no weight.

                  http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,439168,00.html

                  The mass of ordinary Germans did know about the evolving terror of Hitler's Holocaust, according to a new research study. They knew concentration camps were full of Jewish people who were stigmatised as sub-human and race-defilers. They knew that these, like other groups and minorities, were being killed out of hand.

                  They knew that Adolf Hitler had repeatedly forecast the extermination of every Jew on German soil. They knew these details because they had read about them. They knew because the camps and the measures which led up to them had been prominently and proudly reported step by step in thousands of officially-inspired German media articles and posters according to the study, which is due to be published simultaneously in Britain and the US early next month and which was described as ground-breaking by Oxford University Press yesterday and already hailed by other historians.

                  ...

                  •  I'm Sorry, Where Did You Post Your C.V.? (none)
                    Since obviously you believe one has to be a scholar on this issue to have any credibility, I would love to know who you are and what you've had published.  In fact, I may have read something by you, if you are any of the following, who are just some of the scholars on the Holocaust or modern German history who I have read:

                    Uwe Dietrich Adam, Hannah Arendt, Timothy Garton Ash, Yahuda Bauer, Richard Bessel, Karl Deitrich Bracher, Christopher Browning, Gordon Craig, Ralf Dahrendorf, Joachim Fest, Peter Gay, Raul Hilberg, Eric Hobsbawm, Ian Kershaw, Eberharb Kolb, Walter Lacquer, Robert Jay Lifton, Michael Marrus, Timothy Mason, Alan Milward, Hans Mommson, Barrignton Moore, George Mosse, Ingo Mueller, Franz Neumann, Jeremy Noakes, Robert O. Paxton, Detlev Peukert, Fritz Stern, Gerhard Wilke, John Willet, Leni Yahil, Susan Zucotti...  I'm not looking at my bookcases, so I'm sure I'm forgetting several dozen other scholars whose work I've read and possibly even written about.  I hope you're not one of the scholars whose work didn't spring immediately to mind.

                    Gee, you're not Raul Hilberg are you?  If so, I just want to tell you that your three volumn "The Destruction of the European Jews" is possibly the greatest work of historical scholarship I've ever read.  I agree with all the historians and social scientists who rank your work on bureuacracies as on par with Max Weber and your great mentor, Franz Neumann.  

                    •  Professort Galletely's c.v., not mine. (none)
                      And his research using actual newspapers of the time.  Against those, your opinion as to what happned in Germany is simply irrelevant, no matter what you've read.
                      •  Oops -- Gellately, not Galletely (none)
                        Here is more on Dr. Gellately's scholarly research:

                        http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=173311020096810
                        http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=26371014051698

                        I'd be interest in any research, by Raul Hilberg or anyone else, showing that Gellately has forged German newspapers or in any other way has misrepresented the direct historical material he has gathered showing that the extermination of the Jews was well known to the German people (unless the whole population was blind and couldn't read headlines like "The Jew will be Exterminated").

                      •  Hey, Thanks For Clearing That Up (none)
                        I had forgotten that whenever a newspaper article is written about a soon-to-be released book, that everthing that there is to be examined, discussed and argued on the subject of the book is settled once-and-for-all.  You know, it was so silly of me to think that scholarship might lead to divergent arguments, explanations, interpretations of evidence, weighing of facts and previous scholarship, etc.  

                        I also was silly to think there is a glaring inconsistency between you telling me that my characterization of the state of scholarship on Nazi-era Germany holds no weight because of my own admission to not being a scholar, but that you are able to, in your mind, refute my assertion by citing a single book review.  How silly of me.

                        And while I'm talking about silliness, I guess I should conclude that the people I named and thousands of other aren't scholars either, because one some or other issue, every one of them has at least one disagreement with every other one.  So, logically, I guess it means that there are very few scholars, since on a whole range of issues, they probably have some disagreement with the singly-cited professor, who apparently now has eliminated any need for any further scholarship.

                        Thanks for the edification.

                        •  not a substantive response (none)
                          "refute my assertion by citing a single book review" -- it doesn't require refutation, since you have offered no support for it -- just a bunch of names.  But I did in fact offer a reference to Gellately's work, which does in fact refute your assertion.  Feel free to rebut his work.  But we're talking about direct historical material, remember?  Do you want to claim that this material does not exist?  Or that Germans did't read the newspapers?

                          "who apparently now has eliminated any need for any further scholarship."

                          Not at all -- I invited further scholarship that counters Gellately's findings.

                          You write as if Hilberg or any of the other names you mention have refuted Gellately's work, but there's no reason to think they have.  The view you put forth was a view widely held in the past, before this research was done.

                          •  Let's Back Up... (none)
                            ...to here, where you cited my own admission that I'm not a scholar, to which you added "Indeed not, and your comments carry no weight."  Then, you made your own assertions based on a work of scholarship, but with no resort to primary sources.  See, in historical scholarship, there are these things called "secondary sources."  In short, secondary sources are reports of the primary sources.  They are the interpretative and theoretical foundation of historical understanding, and one can be very learned about a subject based on their reading of secondary sources.  But one cannot in any real sense consider themselves a historical scholar of a subject if one doesn't have a intimate familiarity with both the primary (archival and statistical and documentary and material evidence of a region and/or era) and the secondary sources, the articles, monographs and books written about that field of study based on research of the primary sources.  

                            I'm not familiar with much primary material from the Holocaust or Nazi-era Europe.  I've read a several volumes of documentary evidence in translation and edited by eminent scholars.  But I am not fluent in German, and nobody without fluency in German and at least a few of the other languages relevant to the field--Polish, Russian, Ukranian, Hungarian, the south Slav languages, French, Italian, Dutch, Danish, Romanian, Romany, or any of the myriad linguistic families of the Caucuses or the Baltic nations--can be considered a scholar in that field.  

                            However, one can be learned and discerning about how historians use primary sources, their characterizations of the state of scholarship and the research and arguments of other historians, and the soundness of their conclusions, based on a critical reading that applies to all works of prose, as well as what one knows about the history from the secondary sources.  And one also can profit from the assessments and critiques of other historians.  

                            To that end, the article you cite--which isn't even a secondary source, btw--quotes a couple historians, Michael Burliegh (who I haven't read) and Omer Bartov (who I have read, and who I believe to be an excellent scholar) with favorable assessments of Gelletely's work.  But the far more interesting reference in the Guardian review is to Daniel Jonah Goldhagen. Galletely's book, they claim,  

                            ...offers a mass of detail to support the theme of an earlier work, Daniel Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners, which caused an international sensation in 1995. Goldhagen's theme was that "what the Nazis actually did was to unshackle and thereby activate Germans' pre-existing, pent-up anti-semitism".

                            This points to a complexity of which you're either woefully ignorant or disingenuously ignoring--scholars disagree, and one book, especially one that hadn't even, at the time of the review, been widely reviewed in the historical jornals, doesn't "prove" anything.  Furthermore, to get back to my point above, scholars disagree.  Case in point--not everyone who finds great merit in Gelletely's work finds great merit in Goldhagen's.  For instance, Omer Bartov, in this 1996 review of Goldhagen's book, pretty much demolishes Goldhagen's thesis (which is misrepresented by the Guardian review), namely that "eliminationist anti-Semitism" was not only primarily but almost exclusively motivated the German genocide against the Jews, but that it was shared by almost all Germans, and it was unique to Germans, at least in terms of intensity.  And in Bartov's review, he even cites earlier work by Gelletaly to support his largely (but not entirely) negative assessment of Goldhagen's book, an assessment shared by almost every repsected scholar in the field.  In short, few things are simple, and part of my initial point is that "much has been written, and I've read a lot of it."  Your retort was based on a single article, on a single aspect of the historical record, by a single scholar, who very well may still agree with my general point that much was hidden from the German populace, and that even though many millions would have known about some  pieces of what was happening to the Jews, few would have had anything close to a full understanding of the broad strokes of destruction process that was largely occurring in Poland and the USSR.

                            But let's zero in on the essential point to this increasingly futile excange between you and me.  You claim that me not being a scholar means that my comments carry no weight.  Two days later, my original question has led to another.  First, my original question: who are you to say that my comments carry no weight, when neither one of us is making an argument predicated on our own assessments of the primary material, but rather my reading of a substantial body of secondary literature and your reference to only a few internet sources?  And second, with the passage of two days, if you believe my comments carry no weight, why are you still (ineptly) trying to prove me wrong?  And why haven't you even formulated your own claim, instead of just saying I'm wrong without even trying to understand what I was even saying?  (It's a lot easier to "disprove" somebody when you actually underestand what they're assuming and asserting.)

                            Maybe you ought to learn a little bit about intellectual discourse, scholarship, and sound thinking and rhetorical presentation before you get too tied up with trying to argue a claim on a subject about which you've still not shown you know a damn thing.  

                          •  Wrong issue (none)
                            If you would go back and track the thread, you would see that the issue is not Goldhagen's controversial thesis that ordinary Germans took part in the destruction of the Jews, but whether they knew of it.  And going further back, this is in the context of Abu Ghraib.  Imagine that there were no photos of Abu Ghraib, no Americans had ever heard of it, but the papers carried headlines like "Bush decrees: the Iraqi will be tortured!" and then later, the torture at Abu Ghraib is revealed.  Americans could say "We didn't know" -- technically, they would be telling the truth.
                          •  Never Mind (none)
                            You don't get it, or you're avoiding the issue, which is your dismissal of my point because I'm not a scholar, without ever establishing that you are more capable than me to assess the claims and arguments of historians and scholars.  Repeast: Dismissing my claim because I'm not a scholar is the issue I'm addressing.  Yet again, the issue which prompted my second response and all subsequent exchanges wasn't about the Holocaust or German history, it was the bullshit basis on which you claimed that anything I would argue would be without merit because I'm admittedly not a scholar.  

                            It's not the what of the argument that I've been addressing, it's the how.  Your failure to recognize or address this reveals that you lack either the tools or the integrity to justify any further engagement with you.  

                          •  ad hominem all the way (none)
                            I was trying to focus on the issues, not the personal stuff.  Oh well.
                          •  Perhaps (none)
                            Perhaps in this debate we've lost sight of the forest for the trees.  Essentially the question is about whether Germans knew things, Which Germans knew things, When, and if motivated to oppose them, could they? Any chance they could succeed? The reason for asking this question now has to do with whether it offers any insight into how Americans are absorbing the various facts about Iraqi Occupation, and particularly about torture in Abu Ghraib and other prisons.

                            I don't pretend to be a Holocaust Scholar -- hovever I am in my 60's, my parents were involved in this country in resetteling Jews and Social Democrats who managed to emigrate in the 30's (think my playmates spoke German) -- and I've been reading this story since the mid 50's.  I.ve also lived in Germany as a foreign student and for other reasons -- and thus my observations of Germany span the period from the 1950's to the present.  I have some observations about this shrill argument and others like it.  

                            Most debaters about the Holocaust miss one very important step in Historican reconstruction -- they fail to flesh out an understanding of the complexity of the society in which the events occurred.  You can't answer the question, What did they know and when did they know it? until you construct for yourself a map of how Germsns (which Germans) knew things, and how they learned about them.  From 1933 onward, Germany became an increasingly closed society, indeed a classic totalitarian one -- Listening to foreign radio was forbidden, you had to turn in radios that could pick up foreign broadcasts, it was illegal to own or read the foreign press.  Mail from abroad was censored.  No organization opposed to the regime was permitted, so even if you did receive information, what would you do with it?  People generally feared being identified as holding any sort of critical opinion.  In such an environment a significant number of people simply did not want to know anything that contradicted the regime -- so while they may have known some things, or observed things -- taking the next step into ascribing meaning to it was downright dangerous.  Within these general rules, Germans in very diverse parts of the nation and culture had to organize their world view, and their survival.  Any claim that they all did it in precisely the same way is ridiculous.  

                            There is no question Germany was saturated with anti-Jewish propaganda.  The Soviets were described as Jewish Bolsheviks, and Franklin D. Roosevelt (Church of England actually) was described as part of the World Jewish Conspiracy.  Churchill was described as an agent of the Rothschilds.  Did people believe this clap trap? yea -- a good many did in part, particularly because no counter information was generally available.  I suggest that people imagine themselves as residents of a provincial German community run on strict patriarchal lines from the local "Stammtisch" and ask questions not only about knowing information -- but also about the matter of processing it, and ascribing meaning to it all.  The best sources for comprehending all this probably will not be found in the shrill arguments -- but in literature, both things quietly written for the drawer (as for example the Klemperer Diaries) or the post war German novels of all sorts that reconstruct the period.  

                            My own view is essentially this.  Some few Germans were positioned to make any difference at all after the war began in 1939.  Some of these proved to be helpful -- helping people living underground, in Berlin for instance, to hide and survive.  For these individuals with anti-Nazi attitudes, and very good reason to be attuned to the implementation of policy -- knowing what was going on was profoundly important.  They were attached to networks that shared information.  For most others, information about the so called "Final Solution" was useless information, and potentially dangerous.  Their informal information networks did not transmit much information about the Genocide.  Since gossip, defeatism and passing on information from foreign broadcasts could get you a death sentence -- it's no wonder the informal networks focused on rations and bomb damage.  

                            We actually have a little mini example of how this works right here in the USA -- remember the survey about who believed Al-Qaeda was operationally linked to Saddam?  FOX consumers strongly believed that argument -- NPR listeners discounted it for the most part.  Imagine living in a society where all you could watch was FOX?  

                          •  Complexity (none)
                            As I think you picked up, the exchange became about epistomology as much as about the content of the orginal comments that led to the dispute.  And part of my contention was based on the assumption that things are complicated, and one or two answers don't answer all questions or close all open loops.  You've described this complexity well.  Thanks.

                            I suspect you may have some personal knowledge of plenty of people who had only fragmentary knowledge of what was happening in the east to Jews, Poles, intellectuals, Romany, etc.  One example of which you're probably already aware, but if not you should read about, is the White Rose group, the Munich students and academics who formed a resistance group, were caught distributing flyers calling for resistance and alerting Germans (cryptically) about what Germans were doing to Jews, and who were executed in 1942.  

                            These young people were incredibly bright and engaged and they were voracious consumers of news and information.  But it took a while for them to learn about what was happening to the Jews, and this despite:
                            -Their connections with Catholic anti-Nazi groups
                            -Many of them serving on the Eastern front
                            -Their connections with student opponents of the Nazis in other parts of Germany, most notably in Hamburg, which was probably the most anti-Nazi city in the Reich
                            -Their connections they established with people affiliated with both the Red Orchstra  (socialists and communists employed primarily in the intellegence and foreign services) and the conservative, mostly Catholic opposition that coalesced around Stauffenberg and the officers involved in the July 20th plot

                            They were friends with an architect, and when he was employed in the east, he turned his studio over to them for their use.  IIRC, it wasn't until he returned on a leave that they eventually got a fairly clear picture of the destruction process, and then primarily because their friend was assigned to projects related to the construction of transit or concentration camps involved in the destruction process and shared with them his knowledge and his horror.  

                            So, even these hyper-vigilant and aware opponents of the regime, who were incredibly linked to all sorts of informational channels and networks, didn't know much about the mobile killing units, the ghettos, or the growing system of death camps until some time in 1942, by which point over 2 million Jews had already been killed.  

                            Finally, as a sort of related issue to questions of German knowledge of what was happening to Jews, you're surely aware that there was plenty of information for Americans to piece together.  A couple examples, again which you may know about, are an article in the NYT, I think in 1942 but possibly in 1943, that describe with a fairly high degree of accuracy, the mobile killing operations and attributed hundreds of thousands of deaths to these units.  There was also the now well-known mission of Jan Karski, who the Polish resistance snuck into a transit camp, then got into Switzerland and who eventually shared his observations with Roosevelt and Morgenthau.  And even in the realm of literature, Arthur Koestler's "Arrival and Departure" includes a chillingly accurate depiction of Jews, naken and dying, packed into cattle cars.  I've seldom been so unsettled as when, while reading that novel, I looked to see the publication date--it was published in 1943, meaning it described an important aspect of the Nazi's organized mass murder of Jews as it was happening and that few people knew about until a year or two later.  

                            All of this leads me to a question--do you know if the Jews and Social Democrats your parents helped settle in the U.S. knew much about what was happening to their fellow Jews or fellow leftists once the war began?  Since these folks were probably much better connected to sources of unofficial information than the people who couldn't escape Germany, it would be interesting to know how surprised they were by what everyone eventually had opportunity to learn about from  1945 onward.

                          •  Yes, (none)
                            Yes, there was limited communication through some people in Sweden, a German woman married to a Swede from Malmo who was able to travel for family visits to Germany once or twice a year.  Between 41 and early 44 this held up, though her letters had to go through three levels of censorship -- Swedish, Red Cross and US.  The best communication I know of was articles published in obscure Protestant Evangelical Church publications -- mostly Lutheran and Baptist, that were based on Swedish Red Cross and Church Workers who had more general access to Germany and German Contacts.  The information they collected formed the basis of articles that were placed in a number of publications.  Reason for spreading them around was to protect sources and all that.  For some reason they never applied much censorship to these church publications.

                            I think it a mistake to see the refugees spending lots of time worried about relatives.  They were all out anti-Hitler, and 100% into the US war effort, and many had very significant jobs.  In the group I know about (about 70 families)about half of the men were in service -- some in OSS, others serving as translators in combat.  Some of the wives worked for the Army, teaching German in an OCS for the occupation force.  Many others who were not in the service were scientists, working on things like synthetic rubber, plastics, and nylon materials science.  The Visa system in the 1930's worked in such a way that potential refugees with significant skills went to the head of the line -- frequently they came in over the quota if they were scientists or could work in research and development.  

                            There was a weekly newsletter in German published by some refugee faculty at Columbia that served very well the need for news from behind the lines in Germany.  When people got any information, they sent it in -- and it was synthesized with other materials, and republished.  The newsletter also critiqued things in the daily press -- and always carried a bibliography of magazine and periodical materials of interest.  It was trusted, and I suspect is a good guage of what people knew and when.  

                            Your mention of John Dingell is interesting -- his district was strong CIO, and it was the CIO that maintained underground contact with the German Social Democrats, and was a key part of the resettlement efforts we were involved with in those years.  I think the involvement of Progressive Labor in these efforts has been totally missed by many historians.  I would tend to see Dingell as much speaking out on the CIO's dime as anyone elses.  Arthur Goldberg, Chicago Attorney for the Steel Workers in the 30's was also a key figure from 33 onward.  

                          •  complexities of epistemology and psychology (none)
                            "So, even these hyper-vigilant and aware opponents of the regime, who were incredibly linked to all sorts of informational channels and networks, didn't know much about the mobile killing units, the ghettos, or the growing system of death camps until some time in 1942, by which point over 2 million Jews had already been killed."

                            As I said, people didn't know the details.  But they knew Hitler's intent and could make inferences, just as Alan Cranston did when he read and published Mein Kampf -- but they didn't have to read the book because it was being trumpeted in newspaper headlines.  This is different from Fox News, which plays their coy "fair and balanced" game.  It's more like replacing Hannity & Colmes with Hannity & Coulter, and then playing that 24 hours a day on every station.

                            In Sara's original note she pointed out that Germans denied the reality of the death camps after photos, detailed descriptions, and even being marched past corpses, and she referred to "guilty bystanders" and "participation in Nazi culture".  I said they didn't disbelieve, they rationalized.  But I'll grant that, due to cognitive dissonance, there's isn't really any  difference.

                            First they came for the Jews
                            and I did not speak out
                            because I was not a Jew.
                            Then they came for the Communists
                            and I did not speak out
                            because I was not a Communist.
                            Then they came for the trade unionists
                            and I did not speak out
                            because I was not a trade unionist.
                            Then they came for me
                            and there was no one left
                            to speak out for me.

                            -- Pastor Martin Niemöller

                          •  Fine (none)
                            Look, I suspect you haven't read much more than newspaper headlines about a book on which you seem to be basing your entire position.  Your comment to Sara below about the Gov'ts intent shows you know little or nothing about the chaos and competition between and within the various branches of the German military, bureaucratic and business sectors, because there was no single intent, and much of the destruction process was improvised or the result of creative problem solving.  Hitler may have intended to murder millions of Jews, and there were surely some others who dreamed of it, which even led to the initial interpretative approach to the Holocaust in the 1950's being called the "intentionalist" approach.  But from the 1960's onward that approach, or at least anything but a weak and highly-qualified version of it, has been completely discredited.  The whole idea that the Holocaust was the forseeable and deliberately planned goal of Nazi policy from 1922 or 1933 or 1936 or 1939 onward has been discredited.  I'll bet if you actually read that book you keep clinging to you would probably pick that up.

                            But none of this has anything to do with learning of persuading, it's all about being right.  So, to that end, as I sign off, I give you permission to get what you want, by inserting the last word here:___.  

                          •  last word: you like strawmen and ad hominems (none)
                          •  Oh, Another Thing (none)
                            Here in the Detroit area, the elder John Dingell (New Deal Dem Congressman, father of the current congressman who took over the seat when his dad died in 1955) held rallies in Detroit to draw attention to the killings of Jews in Eastern Europe.  His district was fairly heavily Polish, but it also included the most heavily Jewish neighborhoods in Detroit, so through both Jewish groups and connections with the various branches of the Polish resistance, some news was getting back to Americans, and Dingell, because of the demographic makeup of his district, was better suited than most to connect the dots with the information coming from different lines of communication between Europe and the U.S.  But while the Jewish and Polish communities had some knowledge and were agitating for action to impede the massacres in the East, that knowledge never really settled in with many other folks.  
                          •  My point was not about people's attitudes, but (none)
                            of what they knew about the government's attitudes, and of what a rational person might infer from that knowledge.  If one watches Fox News all the time, it 's not hard to figure out what views they are promoting and what actions they favor, regardless of whether one shares those views.
            •  Yes, You're Correct, But Let Me Add... (none)
              ...that one of the profoundly important events in this process of German acceptance of responsiblity for the Shoah was an awful TV miniseries.  It was the German airing of the the American miniseries Holocaust that created a ton of open discussion on the subject of the German genocide against the Jews.  (And, of course, other groups like Romany, homosexuals, Slavs, intellectuals, Jehova's Witnesses, etc.)  All the things you cite were incredibly influential, especially among intellectuals and the generation of 1968, and these developments laid important groundwork for more widespred dicussions.  But it was Holocaust, which I believe aired in 1979, and then a few years later the debate among the historians, generated primarily by the conservative (and muddled) Ernst Nolte), pushed the discussion even further.  
              •  The 1979 Miniseries (none)
                The 1979 Miniseries was indeed watched by a very large audience -- but not so much to learn about what happened.  Most of the contemporary German Reviews put it in the catagory of "How do Americans and their Hollywood Institutions comprehend all this?"  

                No -- I think the beginning of deep questioning came in the early 1960's.  It was a conjunction of things.  By then the economy was vigerous, and recovery and thus a sense of security were pretty real.  So Questions could be tolerated.  Then in 1963 the Israeli's tried Eichman, and film of the trial and the evidence were available on nightly German TV.  The matter of watching older German Speaking survivors testify against the technician who had made much of it happen became a cause for the younger generation that had no memory of the Nazi culture -- and more than anything, it shook out memory from the older generation.  At the same time, Germany began conducting their own war crime trials of former concentration camp guards, I think they tried several groups -- several hundred people.  Thiw reinforced the reaction to Eichman.  

                In 63 one huge topic of debate was the decision to teach "Tin Drum" in Modern German Lit classes to 16 year olds.  It was a hot, passionate debate, but Grass's novel won the day. And in 1964 the most "must see" play was Hochhuth's "The Deputy."  Every little town had a production or a road company.  

                This was the prologue for the radicals of 1968 who would in effect turn on the parents and grand parents generations, and ask the bloody questions.

                In essence I see the whole thing post war as tightly linked with culture.  First stage was restore the material culture -- clear the ruins, get transport and factories back in order.  Then came the cultural messages from the past that could not be ignored -- Eichman trial and much else.  Finally the 1968'ers revolted from the post war consensus of silence.  Only then could the truths about what had happened become incorporated into modern West German Culture.  And in the last 15 years it has undergone yet another metamorphsis as East and West comprehensions have clashed.  

      •  NO (none)
        Our problem is the masses don't paricipate.  That 40% accounts for at best 80-100 million Americans.  2/3rds of the American citizen reject them.
    •  disagree completely (4.00)
      viewing child porn, ESPECIALLY forced, with a perfectly graphic audio stream, even simple pious people will never be able to believe that Bush-haters 'created it to lead them astray'.

      They'll retreat into their communities.

  •  How about some new MoveOn.org commercials? (none)
    No video, just 30 seconds of the audio track over a black screen with "Abu Ghraib prison, Iraq, under US administration".

    I'd send (another) check for that.

    It would get the talking heads talking about it.  I guarantee,

    •  NO (3.66)
      This must not come from a partisan group.

      This must be broken in the press, or by a coalition of Dem/Rep. But since they haven't come forward by now, we must assume the cowards in Congress will not do their duty.

      Thus, the onus is on the FREE press to break this story.

      I adore MoveOn.org -- but they must not touch this until it is broken by a legitimate member of the 4th Column.

      If that column is still there.

      Maryscott O'Connor -- Rage, rage, against the lying of the Right.

      by Maryscott OConnor on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:43:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Please ... (none)
        The press is the Fourth Estate, not the Fourth Column. ("Fourth Column" has sinister overtones that we don't want.)
      •  partisan schmartisan (none)
        MoveOn is partisan, Sy Hersh is partisan -- the only people who aren't partisan are brain dead or autistic.

        "Thus, the onus is on the FREE press to break this story."

        The press in this country has always been partisan since before this was a country.  There is no such thing as "objectivity" when it comes to values.

        If you want to wait for the corporate press to go against its interests, you'll be waiting a long time.

        •  There's partisan and there's PARTISAN (none)
          MoveOn.org is clearly recognized by most people as a Democrat-oriented PAC-ish group.

          Hersh is a journalist; certainly his bias is clear, but he is part of the media -- corporate or not. When Hersh breaks a story, it breaks because of his renowned journalistic integrity. If Mo0veOn.org were to break it, just as if Moore had broken the original Torturegate, they would be ignored, mocked or vilified, just as Moore would have been.

          I think. Hell, I'm not claiming prescience here. It seems like common sense to me, however, to leave the breaking of a major fucking scandalous news story to a major fucking news outlet or individual.

          I'm not waiting for the SCLM/Corporate Media. I'm waiting for Hersh. I hope to god he comes through.

          Maryscott O'Connor -- Rage, rage, against the lying of the Right.

          by Maryscott OConnor on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 06:50:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  hope is passivity (none)
            Don't hope, act.  MoveOn does, and they've been effective.  They don't leave it to someone else, and I'm damn glad they don't.  Ditto with Moore -- who would have made his film if he hadn't?  No one.
  •  Some decent congresscritters (none)
    must have seen the videos.  For example, I trust my rep, Jim McDermott.  Heck, he might even leak them if he had access (so he probably doesn't).

    But it sounds like the videos are out there already.  How come we don't see them posted on the net?

  •  From Bob Harris: (4.00)
    On This Modern World (Tom Tomorrow)

    July 08, 2004

    German TV news report (and take a deep breath, folks): Children at Abu Ghraib

    (Note: this entry posted by Bob Harris)

    Three days ago, a German TV newsmagazine called Report Mainz broadcast an eight-minute segment reporting that the International Red Cross found at least 107 children in coaliton-administered detention centers in Iraq.

    The report also quotes from a yet-unpublished June 2004 UNICEF report, which (as near as I can tell through my crappy German) confirms that children were routinely arrested and "interned" in a camp in Um-Qasr. UNICEF seems particularly vexed with the "internment" status, since that means indefinite detention.

    Another storm seems about to begin. Possibly a large one.

    Even if you have no German at all, hit the link and watch the video. (Click where it says "Beitrag ansehen" and you'll get a RealVideo stream. I'd include a direct link but the server seems to require you to link from the page.) There's some footage of the internment camps here that you're not likely to see on American TV. The link also includes a complete transcript, in German.

    In addition to the Red Cross and UNICEF concerns, Report Mainz broadcast an original interview with U.S. Army Sgt. Samuel Provance, who was stationed for six months at Abu Ghraib and later quite famously blew the whistle about abuses there and the subsequent cover-up. In this interview, Provance confirms the presence of teenagers in Abu Ghraib, describing the torture-by-cold-and-exposure of a teenage boy in order to get his father to talk.

    The General Secretary of Amnesty International in Germany, Barbara Lochbihler, is finally shown demanding a full accounting from the U.S. government, describing the information as "scandalous."

    --snip--

    There's also the point that a 15-year-old can damn sure fire a gun. But even so, since 70-90 percent of those at Abu Ghraib were innocent, if at least 107 kids were locked up, the best-case scenario is still that the U.S. has interned a boatload of innocent Iraqi kids. That's still bad.

    The worst-case, meanwhile, if the German TV report is even close... is a lot worse.

    Meanwhile, there's not a damn thing -- I mean, not a single word I can find -- about this yet in the U.S. media, but it's starting to pick up speed on the rest of our tiny planet, so far showing up in Der Spiegel (roughly Germany's equivalent to Time), an Australian ABC Radio report, and TV2 and NRK television in Norway, where the story might even lead to a change in Norway's participation in the U.S.-led coalition.

    If you're an American news reporter led here by a reader, but you need a hook that doesn't place the incendiary charges in the lead (for whatever reason), OK, here's your story on a platter: Bush may even lose another ally over this. Hit the Norwegian links, and you'll find that the local Amnesty International has stated that "Norway can not continue its military collaboration with the US in light of the alleged torture of children." Norway actually listens to its activists; you'll find that the Prime Minister's office says it plans to address the situation with the U.S. "in a very severe and direct way."

    If this ain't news, I don't know what the hell is.

    I've Google-rigged an English version of the Der Spiegel article. This is a good place to get the gist of what the world is starting to read, even through the machine translation, which parses the headline as "US Soldiers Are To Have Abused Arrested Children."

    This is gonna travel pretty fast. Let me look again... yup. New headlines have appeared just since I started writing this.

    In Pakistan right this minute, they're reading "Over 100 Children Abused in Custody in Iraq".

    Factual conflation aside -- that's not what the original report stated -- it hurts like hell that it's no longer a perceptual leap to assume the worst. When I think of the outpouring of love for America post-9/11... it's just stunning how far we have fallen. This is really what the world sees now.

    --snip--

    If you'd like to know more than a guy with bad German, worse Norwegian, and a laptop can find out in an hour, give the major newspapers and cable networks an email or a holler. I understand they have actual reporters and stuff.

    George W. Bush unelected, false leader. Your days are numbered.

    by MichaelPH on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:12:18 PM PDT

    •  Soj! (none)
      Sooooooooooooooooooooj! Help!
    •  I saw the video clip of "Report Mainz" (4.00)
      online. I don't think the report had caused an "outcry" in Germany, though I can't make that judgement, as I am not living over there. What is quite obviously missing in their report, are the "real video clips and or photos" showing the abuse.

      They are sooo missing that one starts to question oneself, why they are missing. You can't start cleaning up the mess, if you don't have the proof of the mess directly stinking below your nose for everybody to inhale.

      There are two options: the real proof a. has been destroyed, b. is withheld from the public by the Pentagon, c. is withheld from the public by Hersh, d. has never existed in the form it has been claimed to exist.

      Just be reminded that even today there are still people who dare to deny the holocaust despite all the photos and proofs and eyewitness reports one has, one can only start to imagine how many of graphic images showing the children's rapes and abuse one would need to broadcast on TV, to make sure that citizen start to stop denying the truth and begin to believe and admit that SOMETHING went VERY WRONG. Without those images, there is no way to accomplish that.

      Where are the images?

      "History is cluttered with the wreckage of nations and individuals that pursued the self-defeating path of hate." - Martin Luther King

      by mimi on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 04:54:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The images (none)
        must not be released unless the children's identities are disguised.  

        That can be done, of course, by blurring their faces, but it's an important point.  For these families, having their identities known, and their faces broadcast around the world, will be the ultimate humiliation.  We must not perpetuate their abuse.  We cannot go back and prevent what was done to them, but we must protect them now however we can.

        Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth. - Albert Einstein

        by Leslie in CA on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 09:20:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  English translation (none)
      Here´s an English translation of the
      broadcast.

      Iraq child prisoners

  •  If we want to be (4.00)
    the country we want to live in, we have some work to do, starting now.  This is disgracefull for this Republic.  I'm embarrassed to be an American.
  •  like good ol' "fraternity prank" days (4.00)
    could this be why Limbaugh called Abu Ghraib a "fraternity prank"?

    Doonesbury Goes to War (Rolling Stone)
    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20040715/ap_on_re_us/bush_trudeau

    [Garry] Trudeau attended Yale University with Bush in the late 1960s and served with him on a dormitory social committee.
    ...

    Trudeau said he penned his very first cartoon to illustrate an article in the Yale Daily News on Bush and allegations that his fraternity, DKE, had hazed incoming pledges by branding them with an iron.

    The article in the campus paper prompted The New York Times to interview Bush, who was a senior that year. Trudeau recalled that Bush told the Times "it was just a coat hanger, and ... it didn't hurt any more than a cigarette burn."

  •  This sickens me. (none)
    What investigative body has authority to dig into this and file criminal charges???  The folks who planned this crap need to be dragged before some sort of international tribunal.

    Oh yes, now I remember - Bush refused to ratify the ICC treaty.  Normally I wouldn't have thought that the Bush administration was competent enough to plan ahead for this sort of thing, but this little 'coincidence' may save some of their sorry asses.

  •  WWJD? (4.00)
    Luke 17:2
    "It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."

    We're gonna need a lot of millstones for this crowd...

    "If this be treason, make the most of it." -- Patrick Henry

    Prune the Shrub!

    by Cali Scribe on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:27:42 PM PDT

  •  Gah! Stupid me! I messed up Kos-promoted entry (none)
    I thought I'd fix the title quickly and I didn't realize that doing so depromotes it back to diary oblivion!

    Bah! If anyone has a direct line to the big guy could you let him know I screwed it up?!?  Thanx!

  •  Military is key? (none)
    I wonder if the administration's fear is not of the U.S. military--below the Pentagon brass and its civilian leadership.  How would you imagine the rank and file troops and the mid-level officers would react to this dynamite?  
    Saddam's rape rooms morph into America's child-rape rooms....

    Never underestimate the destructive power of a ruling clique that's painted itself into a corner.

    by clarkista on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:45:08 PM PDT

  •  A chilling thought occurred to me... (3.33)
    Did Saddam's torturers rape children?  I haven't ever heard that specific charge levelled at him.  Imagine if he can say that yes he killed and murdered people but at least he didn't rape little... sorry I can't even finish the sentence... it's just too ugly.

    The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

    by mikepridmore on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:58:56 PM PDT

  •  Bush (3.50)

    Despite what the Republican troll's saying upthread, this is political poison for Cheney/Bush for one reason.

    All those memos talking about how the President can authorize torture and is not bound by international law.

    I'd be inclined to say that those are what Hersh is waiting for. So he can set off this bombshell all at once. Once he's got those, he's got solid proof that President Cheney either authorized these abominations or was deliberately ignoring them. When this hits the media, IF this hits the SCLM, there's not going to be enough left of the Cheney/Bush ticket to see with a microscope. I just hope they drag down the Republican party with them, and all the Democrats that pandered to these nazis for the past four years.

    And then I hope members of the administration start getting dragged into Geneva, to stand trial for war crimes.

    •  I agree (none)
      I think the delay here is about hersch trying to connect the dots as high up in the chain of command as he can.
      •  He said he's not done reporting/investigating. (none)
        He said he was in a "difficult position" because he's in the middle of the process.  Clearly there's more coming.
        •  If so, then God help Sy Hersch (3.50)
          going semi-public halfway puts him in a very dangerous position too...

          America began begins with freedom from King George's empire.

          by bribri on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 09:59:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Is he going to finish soon? (none)
          Supposedly Hersh has a copy of all the Abu Ghraib photos, the classified stuff, already...

          I'm almost feel like I don't want to know.  I mean, children shrieking?  I'm literally shivering a little here.  My god, what have we done?

          Hopefully Hersh's work will be worth the shock it produces -- or perhaps worthy because of the shock it produces.  It's not enough to have Bush removed; Kerry must feel pressure to ensure that this doesn't happen again.  Otherwise, we might just have it go on in a more subtle way, in some CIA-sponsored operation nobody knows about...

          // Jonathan Rimdzius

          by jrimdzius on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 12:28:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Dem party platform refers to exit strategy (none)
            As posted here at dailyKos somewhere:


            One of the people directly involved in the effort reports: "Kucinich and the media were both amazed that the changes we made were part of the actual platform, and not a minority report... We got language calling to reduce the troops in Iraq, references regarding an exit strategy, and support for repealing at least parts of the Patriot Act."

            Perhaps that will put an end to the ignorant nonsense coming from Peter Camejo et. al. about Kerry being "worse than Rumsfeld" because he wants to send 40,000 more troops to Iraq (a lie about what Kerry actually said, as bad as any from Karl Rove).

            (OTOH, we've got Kerry's atrocious bashing of the International Court's quite rational decision (when not misrepresented) about Israel's separation barrier.)

          •  Hersh's Sources CIA (3.50)
            I have a feeling this is connected with deep politics going on behind the scenes.  Hersh's sources in his recent articles are pretty clearly CIA, and possibly also uniformed military.  A lot of people in both those organizations despise the Bush administration, and now they have additional reason to: the CIA is being blamed for Iraq, and the bad apples in the military are being blamed for ABu Ghraib.
  •  Jesus H Fucking Christ (none)

    Where are we going, and what are we doing in this handbasket???

    by greylantern on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 09:57:22 PM PDT

  •  Bush's response: (none)
    Americans don't torture people.  This is a great country with VALUES.   VALUES.  Understand?   America raises its children with VALUES.  See, here in America, we don't raise sodomites, because we're a nation of values, it's in our soul.  Now see, there are some who say America doesn't have values, these pessimists think we need a permission slip to defend freedom <snigger> and they believe Americans are no better than the evil Saddam working with Osama Bin Laden to destroy our freedoms.   Me, I'm proud of America, and I'm proud to be an American <cocky head chugging thing>.  I will never hesitate to go to war against an enemy that threatens America and its values.  God bless America.

    "In an abstract love for humanity one almost always loves only oneself." --Fyodor Dostoevsky, "Notes From The Underground"

    by Subterranean on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 09:57:40 PM PDT

  •  "Good Germans" (4.00)
    It is human to believe that one's own, one's kind, cannot be the beast.  The beast must always be "the other". And thus, the "good Germans" of the Nazi era, those whose senses were bombarded by all the signs of a collosal horror, and chose to deny their own senses, rather than lose the delusion of their national virtue.  That would mean acknowledging ownership of the beast.  But all of us pathetic humans, regardless of nation, race, gender, age have the beast within.  I know my beast, I own it.  

    Do you pay taxes?  If so, this was done with your money.  I know it was done with mine.  I am responsible.  So the question is, how does one be something other than a "good German"?  What can one person do when one's own nation has unleashed the very soul of horror on the world, and even the supposed "opposition" is complicit by their silence?  Is there no choice but to be a "good German" if our voices count for nothing, if the political game rolls on as though nothing has changed? In Sy Hersh we have our Zola...

    the civil wars and the uncivilized wars conflagrations leap out of every pore ... i'm a no good coward & an american too a north american that is not a south or a central or a native american i must not think bad thoughts i'm guilty of murder of innocent men innocent women innocent children thousands of them my planes my guns my money my soul my blood on my hands its all my fault i must not think bad thoughts i must not think bad thoughts the facts we hate you'll never hear us -Exene Cervenka

    I don't belong to any organized political party, I'm a Democrat--Will Rogers

    by Dancing Larry on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 09:58:22 PM PDT

    •  simply stop paying those taxes (none)
      well, sure, it'll  make a mess of your credit rating and get a bunch of unpleasantness started against you, but, damn, think about what that money gets used for. You can do this right now. You can go to your payroll office  and ask to refile your w-2 form (or is that the w-4?), the one where you declare your exemptions and  where you can sign and state that you are not required to have your tax withheld. The line is right there at the bottom of the form.  This is a break they give new workforce entrants. New form. payroll office pushes a few buttons, and your taxes are no longer withheld. If you want to cover your ass, you can put the money in an escrow account to be paid when the fed gets it's head screwed back on right. A lot of people did this during the Vietnam War era. Instant shut off of your participation in the funding of the criminal war machine.  Will you get in trouble for that? Possibly, eventually. What would Jesus do? What would a "good german" do?  What are you going to do?

      don't always believe what you think and Beware of Fungibility Unlimited

      by claude on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 11:17:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bringing Pressure (4.00)
    I think the proper place to apply pressure on this is with Senator Warner and Senator Levin, the Chair and Ranking Member of Senate Armed Services Committee.  They have the responsibility for holding hearings and dealing up front with this, and if they get lots of messages that the story is breaking, I think they will respond.

    Warner has been under huge huge pressure in the last couple weeks because he has scheduled Armed Services Committee Hearings after they break for the conventions -- and the leadership (Frist, Lott) is trying to shut him down.  Of course he knows this story and the video exists -- and in the end he has to take the lead and deal with the issues.  So a push and a shove to get Warner and Levin to move is probably in order.  I suspect the staff has been working on it since Hersh and CBS broke the first story.  I rather suspect they don't want to lay this off on the little guys, but want to push responsibility right up the chain of command to the top.  

    Another member of Armed Services is Hillary Clinton -- it might be worth it to copy letters to Warner and Levin to her -- and also to your own state's Senators.  Make letters very non-partisian -- just demands for truth telling.  

    But from a Democratic Partisian viewpoint, it is useful to have Kerry moving well ahead in the polls now before this story breaks, because I suspect it will destroy Bush's Campaign, but if Kerry is already moving ahead, it cannot be said that "the story" alone caused Bush's demise.  Kerry needs to stay way away from this thing, win on his own platform and dime -- and keep the issue of Bush's proclivity for torture all his own.  

    Bush was local today -- meaning he was campaigning in Northern Minnesota and Wisconsin, and there was plenty of local video.  Looks to me like he is dragging on the campaign trail -- not seeming to have any fun.  Perhaps he is anticipating cooked goose.  

  •  Teeter-totter (none)
    On the one hand ... I marched against the war.  I protested, in the streets, and on my blog, before the first shot was fired.  I'm actively working to throw the President of the United States out of office, through a form of regime change that was sanctioned, approved, and encouraged by the Founding Fathers.

    On the other hand ... like they've said higher in the thread ... this was done with my tax dollars.  This was done in my name.

    I'm proud to be a Yankee fan; I'm proud to call New York my city.  But I can't admit to being an American without feeling a deep sense of shame and revulsion.  And I fear that it'll take more years than I have left in my life to redeem the honor of my country ... if my country is not, in fact, beyond redemption.

    BK

  •  bumpersticker from hell (none)
    Abu Ghraib: Juvenile Victims Unit  This whole mess is extremely upsetting to me.  Last week I worked out some of my anger with Adobe Illustrator.  I also wrote a letter to Google asking them to adjust their algorithm.
  •  Getting the word out (none)
    I live in a state bordering Canada and receive the CBC on cable TV.  Since the American press is too cowardly to publish this story, I'd suggest the CBC be given the info; as a legitimate news organization, they would cover it and a few million Americans would be informed.  

    Never underestimate the destructive power of a ruling clique that's painted itself into a corner.

    by clarkista on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 11:16:59 PM PDT

  •  Remember the original Senate hearings (none)
    on this.  It kind of went along and then just abruptly stopped, and the story disappeared. Is this the reason? Felt like a cover up at the time.  But what's up with this?  What is going on in Washington?

    George's classmates on his performance at Harvard, "...completely out of his depth." (and two decades of drug and alcohol abuse haven't helped any.)

    by NorCalJim on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 11:28:11 PM PDT

  •  The last aphorism (4.00)
    "Remember:  Just because torturing prisoners is something we did, doesn't mean it's something we WOULD do."
    Rob Corddry, The Daily Show

    I would paraphrase:  The important thing is not that Americans tortured Iraqis but that Americans would NEVER torture anyone.

    Never underestimate the destructive power of a ruling clique that's painted itself into a corner.

    by clarkista on Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 11:59:38 PM PDT

  •  to those who want a cover-up (none)
    If these audio tapes aren't leaked then there will be no justice. Americans have blown this off, and they need to have it shoved in their face again and again.

    There is a whitewash going on. Rumsfeld has his job. Sanchez is getting a fat pension on taxpayer moeny. Bush and the rest.

    They need to be in prison. Then there will be justice.

  •  Hope Hersh doesn't delay full release of this (none)
    with an eye on creating maximum impact against the Repubs.

    If it is released too late, the press will merely spin it as a 'last-minute smear attempt' on the convention/election/what-have-you.

    Remember ahh-nold and the grope story released right before the CA recall election? LAT needed time to confirm allegations and as a result the story came out close to election day, but the Terminator probably got a boost from it by portraying himself the victim of a scurrilous smear.

    This story needs to hit the news cycle NOW, regardless of its impact on the election.

    Facts are a therapy of limited usefulness in cases of advanced delusion. -Michael Kinsley

    by Swampfoot on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 02:12:21 AM PDT

    •  Getting the story out (none)
      This story should go to the CBC.  Unlike us poor benighted capitalist souls, our neighbors to the north have a legitimate press.  If they were apprised of this story, they would report it.  
      Lots of us who live near the Canadian border get the CBC on cable so, if our gentle neighbors to the north do the story, plenty of Americans will be informed.  The pathetic cowards at our corporate TV news organizations cannot be trusted to risk their precious "access"--which has gotten them nothing but lies and the outing of a CIA agent.  Grrrr

      Never underestimate the destructive power of a ruling clique that's painted itself into a corner.

      by clarkista on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 02:47:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks for the vote of confidence, but (none)
        you need to carry your own water on this one. Americans don't listen to criticism coming from outside the borders, anyway -- and as for news this bad being delivered by Canada... sorry. It won't work. You never take us seriously.

        Accountability. Without it, there is no democracy.

        by Canadian Reader on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 10:13:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  okay.... (none)
          Point well-taken. However, you should know that during the run-up to "our" war on Iraq, CSPAN carried CBC nightly newscasts (i.e.,"The National"), including criticism of US policy.  So some of "us" do take your news coverage seriously.  When compared with our infotainment media, CBC is right up there with the BBC (on which, I assume it was modeled).
          Guess we will just have to save ourselves....

          Never underestimate the destructive power of a ruling clique that's painted itself into a corner.

          by clarkista on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 09:35:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  O Canada (none)
          This past weekend I was channel-surfing when I came across a football game (in Edmonton, I think)on CBC.  The telecasters kept talking about the brutal heat.

          What in the world are you guys doing staging pro football games in July!?  A couple of years ago, the Minnesota Vikings had a player die in training camp because of the heat.

          What are you people thinking of?  Hockey at -20 degrees is one thing (Yes, I saw that game) but this is insane.....

          Never underestimate the destructive power of a ruling clique that's painted itself into a corner.

          by clarkista on Tue Jul 20, 2004 at 12:58:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  war crimes and memory holes (none)
    Ours too? This story was so horrifying to me, I couldn't believe that NOBODY was covering this. Some pretty basic searches found entries like this one from buzzflash.com:


    May 11, 2004

    Will the Torture at Abu Ghraib (Finally) Open Americans' Eyes?

    "The unreleased images show American soldiers beating one prisoner almost to death, apparently raping a female prisoner, acting inappropriately with a dead body, and taping Iraqi guards raping young boys, according to NBC News." - The Boston Herald ,May 8, 2004

    (Couldn't find the article on the Herald's own site - here's a copy)

    MAY. And the national outrage is... where? It shames me that I didn't see this back then. It seems, though, that nobody else picked this up or tried to push it further. There was some kind of consensus that, Oh those pictures are bad enough, we don't want to release even worse ones. We'll all just shake our heads at how sad the world is. And I also seem to remember that polling data was showing that Americans thought the media was overdoing the story and that they didn't want to hear any more about it. So it has already been marked as a political "loser" issue by the Democrats and dropped.

    So sickening... Especially because the true criminals here will never pay for it. Not just the guards and soldiers who participated, but their commanders, and their commanders, all the way up to Monkey-In-Chief. It'll never be prosecuted as it should be in this country, and as long as the Iraqi "government" is our sock puppet, I don't see how it could ever end up in any kind of international court either.

    We are sowing a whirlwind...

  •  What have we done? (4.00)
    September 11th, 2001---God Help America

    Afganistan invasion---God Bless America

    Now---God forgive America

    because I can't--at least right now.  If Jr. wins in November my family's moving to Canada.  I'm too old to be effective in the resistance, and I won't be a good German (1930's vintage)

    Kate

    •  minor quibble (none)
      I know it's well off topic, but could you write  Good German in capital letters?
    •  1933 all over again (none)
      In Germany on March 23, 1933 the parliament voted it's power away, giving the chancellor all the power of the parliament and chancellery.  It was all on the up-and-up. Faithfully every 4 years the Reichstag voted it's power away when the bill they voted on 4 years earlier expired. (Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, p196-201)

      Imagine if we had 3 or 4 terror attacks like 9/11 in rapid succession and Bush asked Congress for a free hand internally.  Is it that far fetched that Congress would vote to cede power to the President for 4 years?  Would the SCOTUS deny the President this power if it is freely given by Congress?  

      •  Non--Delegation Doctrine (none)
        There is a non-delegation doctrine that the Supreme Court has employed sporadically.  But would they use it in the emergency circumstances you imagine?  The German Reichsgerichtshof did not do its job in the Nazi Revolution of 1933.
        •  Think "War Powers Act" (none)
          The Congress had delegated authority in terms of declaring war by enacting the war powers act.  This law is still in place since being enacted in 1973.  I also note that Congress has not declared war since 1941 despite (among others) Korea, Viet Nam, Granada, Haiti, Haiti, Iraq and Iraq.    

          I do see a distinct possibility that if there is another major terrorist attack the Congress would vote to give the President wide powers for a limited time. Given this Supreme Court I would not be shocked if they did let Congress purposefully vote power to the Executive for a limited time due to national emergency.

  •  Terry Gilliam said it best... (none)
    The aria from "The Torturer's Apprentice", as sung by the Grand Turk in The Adventures of Baron Munchausen:

    Life is rather like a game...

    It's important that you win...

    And though it seems a terrible shame...

    If you lie and cheat and sin...

    Lay up and win...

    the game.

    This is the reality, the only reality that is operating in Washington, London, Riyadh, Tel Aviv.

    For that matter, everywhere on the planet.

    No, the Sultan's demands are still not sufficiently rational; the only lasting peace is one based on reason and scientific principle -- Horatio Jackson

    by rgilly on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 05:07:07 AM PDT

  •  This says it all... (4.00)
    "The more we do to you, the less you seem to believe we are doing it."
    Dr. Joseph Mengele
    •  Exactly (none)
      You can get away with anything if no one in a million years would believe what you're doing.

      --- Idealist (n) - An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup.

      by dspiewak2634 on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 08:07:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Anybody agree? (none)
    We were terrorized into this war!
  •  Contact yor Senator (none)
    I sent my Senator, Dick Durbin, a link to this site this AM and asked him point blank that if he knows anything about this story then how come he is not speaking out. Durbin is one of the best liberals we have in DC. If he, or Kennedy, or Schumer and other liberals don't speak out then the US press will continue to bury the story. As good a reporter as Hersh is, why must we depend only on one man to get this story out?
  •  Revolting. (none)
    I guess when the enemies of America say that she is out to rape their women and children they are not lying. This is so disgusting, so utterly revolting that I can only think of slow painful deaths for those who carry such "acts". If Rush says that this a mere college prank, he should be sent to Abu Graib and. . . .

    "It is not for honour nor riches, nor glory that we fight but for liberty alone, which no true man lays down except with his life." Declaration of Arbroath, 13

    by Ralfast on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 08:18:30 AM PDT

  •  There are Very Few News References (none)
    to the Iraq children torture scandal and the ones that do exist do not refer to rape. It is shocking that there is not more coverage of this situation.

    Be that as it may. Here is an article from Australia [where is the US media in all of this????] regarding a group in Denmark asking its government to demand an investigation into the allegations of child abuse at Abu Ghraib.


    Last Update: Saturday, July 10, 2004. 2:54pm (AEST)

    Denmark pressed to seek probe into reports of Iraqi child torture

    The Danish-based International Rehabilitation Council for Torture Victims (IRCT) has urged the Copenhagen Government to demand an investigation by the US-led coalition forces in Iraq into allegations that children there were being imprisoned and tortured.

    The demand comes three days after a similar appeal to the Danish Government, which is part of the US-led military coalition in oil-rich Iraq, from the Danish section of the international aid agency Save the Children.

    That appeal received no response.

  •  What I keep thinking (none)
    What I keep thinking is that what if there was no video or photographs of all this.

    I am utterly certain that without incontrovertible evidence the vast majority of people would not believe this was happening.  American soldiers would never do that.

    What is horrifying me is wondering what else is happening beyond the range of the camera.

    Oh, and despite the efforts of some to mischaracterise the discussion here while it is still happening, I agree with the overwhelming sentiment here which is that politics is unimportant compared to stopping these atrocities right damn now.

  •  Oh, the irony...horrible... (none)
    It was in spite of the best efforts of this admin. that the fractured "supreme court" upheld the right of consenting adults engage in sodomy, but NOW, if sodomy is so abhorrent to this admin., where is the accountability? Criminal war crime prosecutions need to commence against those in the chain who condoned/designed/approved of these methods...Sy is so right...I saw Sy get vaclimpt when speaking of this...I am full of rage and shame at what is being done in our name... I hope the Arab world can someday forgive my great, great grandchildren, cause that's how long it may take...SHAME ON YOU MISTER APPOINTED, ANOINTED "president"...(So Called Elected President)...LOL..yeah...SCEP...pass it on...by the way,you heard it here first...

    The most important thing is to try to enjoy your life and not be fooled by things. -Suzuki Roshi

    by lobezno on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 08:52:47 AM PDT

  •  More media coverage (none)
    Hi, this is my first post, so I thought I should share a litte. I was reading through this thread until about 3:30 am last night and am completely disgusted with the actions of my country.

    From Salon: Hersh: Children sodomized at Abu Ghraib, on tape

    Maybe this is some of the media coverage you've been seeking.

  •  Accountability (none)
    Thank you, Maryscott and writerCarl, for your eloquent posts that say so well what I am feeling.  

    This administration is the most morally bankrupt in our history; only by dealing with them as harshly as they deserve can we begin to regain any of the respect we have lost in the eyes of the world.  They need to be criminally prosecuted besides being voted out of office.

    But what are we going to do?  Pressure Warner, fine.  But is that enough?  What are we to do with our outrage?  

    I want us to use Meetup and MoveOn to organize marches around the country denouncing these crimes against little children--not because it will suddenly make the press do its job, though it might encourage them, but because it will show the world that we share their outrage, that we do not condone the crimes commited in our names.  

    Posting here is not enough; writing our representatives is not enough.  We must do something visible, tangible, concrete.  We must, as Marisacat said, face this and deal with it, or we are finished as a nation.

    Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth. - Albert Einstein

    by Leslie in CA on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 10:23:49 AM PDT

  •  Why are we (kossacks) so damn passive. (none)
    Its time to start emailing the media, Making calls,  writing the edotors of local papers.  I can't believe this, but then again I can.

    C'mon folks lets go.  Lets start posting some links.  We can't wait for the mainstream media to "pick the story up."  

    A Vote for Bush is a Vote for Torture:(

    by Gator on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 10:24:17 AM PDT

    •  Big assumption, possibly correct, but then again.. (none)
      I, for one, do plenty of letter writing and telephone calling. I just don't write a diary about it every time I do it. Half of the typing I do each day is devoted to correspondence with politicians and companies.

      I suspect many more of us do that than we see. Sure, more don't than do -- but this is a damned active group of bloggers on dKos.

      Maryscott O'Connor -- Rage, rage, against the lying of the Right.

      by Maryscott OConnor on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 01:58:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  News email addresses (none)
      Some email adresses to support some of my previous bitching;

      NBC NEWS

      Today@NBC.com

      weekendtoday@nbc.com

      Nightly@NBC.com

      MTP@NBC.com

      CBS NEWS

      evening@cbsnews.com

      1. m@cbsnews.com
      2. II@cbsnews.com

      A Vote for Bush is a Vote for Torture:(

      by Gator on Thu Jul 15, 2004 at 03:51:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Follow up thread posted (none)
    The page is taking too long to load now.  I've created a new entry that summarizes the best points brought up here and from other blogs over the past day.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/7/15/133030/088

  •  Abu Ghraib (none)
    Senator Warner's commission is going to interview Paul Bremer next week on other Red Cross-reported matters - I suggest we all send mail and telephone calls to Senator Warner and others on his committee to ask Bremer about this child abuse.
  •  Kids sodomized at Abu Ghraib, Pentagon has the vid (none)
    We MUST continue to hammer on the righties, neocons, theocons, and republicans in general about torture, sodomy, child abuse, etc. FOREVER.  This is a primo weapon against the right.  55% of GOP voters at one time supported torture.  We must not let this stand. TORTURE is NOT an AMERICAN VALUE.
  •  Kids sodomized at Abu Ghraib, Pentagon has the vid (none)
    We MUST continue to hammer on the righties, neocons, theocons, and republicans in general about torture, sodomy, child abuse, etc. FOREVER.  This is a primo weapon against the right.  55% of GOP voters at one time supported torture.  We must not let this stand. TORTURE is NOT an AMERICAN VALUE.
  •  Nice (none)
    More good knowledge to know.

    Faux news needs faux wood blinds to shade the failures of the Bush presidency.

    by dopies on Fri Sep 03, 2004 at 09:44:19 PM PDT

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