Skip to main content

Chillinois has compelling evidence that Maya Keyes, our good gay-hating Republican in Maryland Illinois, is openly gay.

The evidence comes from Maya's very public blog (first discovered by Modern Vertebrate). Xanga apparently allows parts of the site to be "protected" from those not on a special list, but Xanga has poor technology, as some of that protected content can be easily found. For example, here's the post where she hides parts of her site.

If this is a hoax, and it very well could be, it's a pretty good one.

And if it's real, don't worry, Maya still thinks abortion is like lynching. Being queer, and wearing a "George W. Bush: You're Fired" button doesn't disqualify wingnuttery on other issues.

Update: I took down the picture to make the post a little less inflamatory.

But really, neither I, nor other blogs, have "outed" Maya. She's out. She brags about wearing her rainbow bracelet on the campaign trail. Her father must either be blind or clueless not to know his daughter's sexual preferences. Pointing out that the adult daughter of a politician, who is campaigning with that politician is gay isn't a slur.

So why is Keyes so quick to attack the children of others? Why is he so virulently anti-homosexual? Why does it seem that every high-profile anti-gay figure has a gay child?

From reading her blog, it seems like Maya is out and proud. Good for her. The question is, what kind of person is her father, to so hatefully oppose something that's so innately part of Maya?

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:21 PM PDT.

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  Now that's rebellion (none)
    but.. i'll wait until more is mentioned.

    "Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right" - Carl Schurz

    by RBH on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:20:14 PM PDT

    •  read her blog... (none)
      "...then another guy sidled up rather discreetly and said "Um, excuse me, I don't mean to interrupt, but I'm assuming you're family?" So I glued on another smile and said "Yes, I'm his daughter..." to which he said "No, no... I mean... you're... family...

      There was a brief moment of "We're in the middle of a bunch of republicans out away from Chicago in Illinois he can't mean - " confusion before I realized yes, he'd noticed my rainbow everything and he did mean family like that...  so I said yes and he gave me literature for his queer youth group and said he figured it must be tough on me but they were behind me and I should stop by sometime.

      Then, I was out at lunch at Chili's with my dad and his aide and our adorable gay waiter stopped me when I was coming out of the bathroom to say how much he liked my bright rainbow bracelets. He then told me he understood how hard it could be being queer in a conservative family and I should hang in there.
      Then again today in Naperville some random queer boy in passing shook my hand and told me that "Lots of us are pulling for you, be strong, be proud!"

      so... wow."

      So wow indeed.

      •  Take It Down!!! (3.25)
        Please, Kos, take this bullshit down.  Now.  This is truly reprehensible.  I enjoy most of the things on here, and even the stuff I don't enjoy so much (pie-hole arguments) at least have some value here.  Now we're gonna have hundreds (thousands?) of Kossacs googling Maya Keyes?  She's 19, fer chrissakes, and not responsible for who her father is!  How many people here had it figured out when they were 19?  I defended the "screw 'em" bullshit with everything I had.  This is a whole 'nother thing.

        Please take the post down.

        "If you aren't completely appalled, then you haven't been paying attention."

        by Savage on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:50:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I have to agree (3.33)
          I rarely post, but I think this is important. I'm all for outing gay Republicans, and want Raw Story and Larry Flynt to be brutal in their upcoming exposes, but if she's not actively campaigning for anyone, she should be off limits. If she's campaigning for her father, that might be different.

          Also, the other girl is completely innocent. Spare her.

          •  GREAT Point (3.75)
            the other girl is completely innocent. Spare her.

            Who's the other girl, and what does her family think about her kissing another girl...and not just another girl, but an African-American girl.  Hopefully they're OK, but do we know?

            •  She writes all about it on her OWN blog (4.00)
              it's linked in comments below.  She is clearly out as well.

              These are adults with blogs.  We are linking to their blogs.  That's all that is happening here.

              Will James R. Bath reveal the secret behind George Bush's National Guard Service before it's too late?

              by pontificator on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:24:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Sorta agree... (4.00)
            This is getting too personal.

            I read the blog matterial at chillspot.  I really do like this girl.  As much of a turd as her father is (and I'm convinced that he's a really big stinky turd now!) this girl doesn't deserve to be messed with.

            The asshole's going to lose the election anyway.

            <grumble>

            Think about it...  Think about what that guy Keyes said the other day about Cheney's daughter.  And all the time, his own daughter was a lesbian.  And he knew it.  What an incredible dipshit.  

            Too bad I can't give him the credit for having such a great kid.  It must have come from somewhere else in the gene pool.

            Pissed off now...

          •  I'm in total agreement (none)
            After reading some of her blog, its obvious she has a difficult family situation (quite the understatement, I know.)  Against all odds, the girl is doing okay--she's out and proud and dealing with her ultra-homophobic family.  

            Blogging about this is harmful and really serves absolutly no purpose (the Keyes race isn't even competitive, for Gods sake!)

            Lets save the public outings for the hypocrites--not for the kids who have a hard enough time as it is.

            Please don't stir the pot on this one...

        •  I've gotta agree (3.75)
          I don't see how this is productive.

          Where are we going, and what are we doing in this handbasket???

          by greylantern on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:56:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Googling Maya Keyes. (4.00)
          http://www.google.com/search?q=Xmisled0youthX&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

          It's public material.  No outing here.  She outed herself, along with her girlfriend, by posting details of their life on the Web.

          And, yes, including details about her working for her father's campaign.

          Outing children of Repbulicans who aren't aligned with the politics of their parents is off-limits, but what we have here is radically different.  And wholly freaking bizarre.

        •  The real point (3.00)
          is that Alan Keyes should not say shit about gays if he doesn't want his daughter's life exposed and used to paint him as either a hypocrite or an asshole.

          Whether kos should be the vehicle for the exposure is a seperate issue.

          "What can I say? I just tip my hat and call the Yankees my daddy." -Pedro Martinez

          by BooMan23 on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:32:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  asdfasdf (none)
        she also says that Austin is cool, so I can like her even more (despite the fact that she's a fuckin nazi on the abortion issue) but she does the whole "Austin is the only cool part of Texas" thing which pisses me off.  All of Texas rocks, biatch.
      •  Her blog was NOT private (4.00)
        There seems to be a lot of confusion out in Blogostan about whether Ms. Keyes' blog posts were "protected" or public.  She does write shortly after her father announced his US Senate candidacy that her site was "indefinitely going protected."  

        She posts this statement because, she says, she had received e-mails from people wondering what had happened to her.  She had already taken the site down, and was simply posting a public update.  

        I'll still keep parts of it public, I just need a little while to decide which to make public, which to keep protected, and which to just keep private. So please be patient for a couple of days (I'll be in Chicago from today until Tuesday, so I won't get to this till after then. And I get to see my Jerrykins there!!! ) and when I get home again I'll get to un-privatizing this place.

        Apparently, what happened was she put the site back up.  She continued linking to her blog on her Yahoo! e-mail profile and she used that same e-mail address to post on a Keyes campaign website.  

        So, spare me the "this is private information" crap.  All of it may have been private at one time, when Ms. Keyes took down her blog, but she eventually re-posted everything that we can see as of this minute.  And she re-posted that info AFTER her dad became the official US Senate candidate and then wrote about Keyes campaign events on that same blog.  

        chillinois.blogspot.com

        by chillinois on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 02:03:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Maya's girlfriend's blog. (none)
      http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=AvaAdore&nextdate=7%2f23%2f2004+21%3a56%3a5.607&directio n=n

      Very real.  Warped, but real.  Definitely my kind of women.   Very much the kind of people I hung out with in high school.  Too bad they're gay.

      This page has the same picture, a good rant on the FMA, and the struggles they're having about outing Maya.

    •  If DEMs want to know (4.00)
      why we lose elections to a GOP that plays with brass knuckles, this thread is illustrative.  The GOP will never be satisfied in any race until they get 100% of the votes and would not shy away from anything that helps them to get as close to that as possible.

      I'm not particularly fond of stories like this one.  And Keyes is doing quite all right all on his own making himself look like a nutcase.  Yet, if we can't publicize the fact that a man who thinks homosexuality is an abomination has an openly gay daughter, it demonstrates exactly what the opposition says of us -- we're too nice and wimps.

  •  asdf (none)
    The sticker she is wearing is from the Human Rights Campaign....I think if the picture is real, we might have a new member of the Mary Cheney/Candice Gingrich club!
    •  It's too early to say that (none)
      Do we know if she's supporting her fathers campaign?  The pin makes it pretty obvious she dislikes Bush  (no jokes please, I'm being serious for a minute.)  

      I don't see how the Mary Cheney comparison applies....

      •  The comparison is apt... (none)
        I don't see how the Mary Cheney comparison applies....

        The comparison is apt on several levels, as I see it.

        First, Keyes slammed Mary Cheney's lifestyle, terming her a "selfish hedonist," and saying that she misused her genitals (!) by having sex that isn't intended for procreation. If he can criticize another repug politician's daughter for being gay, he should be confronted with the fact that his hurtful, homophobic comments can be thrown at his own child. Sauce for the goose, and all that.

        Second, Keyes' homophobia and intolerance should be seen in the light of his own child's situation. There is an extreme, if typically republican, hypocrisy in his behavior. Keyes insulted all gays without ever acknowledging the elephant in his own living room. As a Maryland resident, I already know the man is delusional. Thus, I know he is perfectly capable of believing that his daughter's lesbianism is somehow different from that of Ms. Cheney. However, for him to say what he has said about gays while having a gay child makes this a legitimate issue.

        Also, as others have noted, no one outed Maya Keyes. She herself has written a blog in which she made her sexuality public. Some individuals seem to be unaware that their statements on the Internet are public. She forfeited any expectation of privacy when her blog went live and she revealed intimate details of her life therein.

  •  Ehhh... (3.50)
    ...plenty of straight girls go out and kiss other girls, particularly to give some kind of vicarious pleasure to guys who are around. One can see pictures of this on blogs like livejournals all the time. So based on this alone I would be hesitant to jump to the 'Maya is a lesbian' conclusion.

    I'm not a part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

    by eugene on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:21:20 PM PDT

  •  I'm not so sure... (3.92)
    that just being a politician's daughter gives other people the liscence to post her personal life to the public...  
    •  asdf (none)
      I agree that under almost every circumstance that politicians' family members should be off-limits unless they make themselves involved in the campaign.  This is a slightly different situation, however, since Keyes has taken it upon himself to comment on other people's daughters.

      This is therefore a tricky situation, and should be handled delicately.  

      Those who stand for nothing fall for anything - Alexander Hamilton

      by patagonia on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:29:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  she's involved (none)
        She posted to his yahoo group with a link to the blog.  It's public.  
        •  So What? (none)

          "If you aren't completely appalled, then you haven't been paying attention."

          by Savage on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:33:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  so it isn't private (none)
            read what it is responding to...
            •  Not Private... (none)
              ....but shouldn't be posted here.

              "If you aren't completely appalled, then you haven't been paying attention."

              by Savage on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:37:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Why not? (3.66)
                Good heavens!  If it were Obama's daughter, do you think the Republicans would take the "high road" and not publicize his daughter's sexuality because it wasn't pertinent to the candidate?

                Get real.

                We're not in some kind of alternate reality where people respect the truth in elections, let alone boundaries.

                We're Democrats so we're not supposed to point out that one of the biggest vitriolic homophobes currently running for office has an out lesbian as a daughter?  After he pounced on Cheney's daughter for the evils of her lesbianism?

                Sorry.  I think this is a legitimate fact to bring to the public's attention.  And it's not like she's in the closet... this girl is out.

                •  Screw the Election (4.00)
                  What the hell are you talking about?  Yeah, so what if you want to think it's war, do we countenance carpet bombing defeated cities after they have been defeated?  Besides, Maya Keyes isn't a combatant, she's a civillian.

                  And Maya Keyes isn't at war, she's a 19 year old with a father who's an asshole.  If you don't understand that that's already enough to deal with, you probably don't understand much.  

                  •  She's Campaiging and She's Out (3.33)
                    what's the privacy invasion? Anything greater than what Alan Keyes visits upon others?  
                    •  Isn't What Alan Keyes Does Bad Enough? (none)
                      It's bad enough her father says hateful things about her, why do we have to make her life worse by pointless political voyeurism?  

                      This isn't about her privacy.  (Although what about the other woman?)  It's about simply human descency.  She's not David Drier.  She a 19 lesbian whose dad is famous for, among other things, attacking lesbians.  

                      That's punishment enough.  

                      •  It's condescending (4.00)
                        to claim someone's privacy is at stake when she linked to her blog site in her posts on a Keyes listserv.  She's an adult, an open lesbian, working for her father and espousing her views on a public web site.  
                        •  the thing is that... (none)
                          when she linked to her blog site in her posts in a Keyes listserv, she NEVER thought that she would be the subject of a vicious outing like this.

                          What's madness but nobility of the soul at odds with circumstance?

                          by slinkerwink on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:28:42 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Where? (none)
                          It's condescending (none / 1)

                          to claim someone's privacy is at stake

                          Where did he say that?  Looks like he said the opposite to me.

                          "If you aren't completely appalled, then you haven't been paying attention."

                          by Savage on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:30:22 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  If you care to find (none)
                            another reason why it's human decency not to out her (something that is impossible since she's already out), I'm all ears, but it appears that privacy would be the only reason not to out someone.
                        •  You're Utterly Confused (none)
                          First, it was protected content that somebody got to through the security screen.

                          Two, I explicitly said my objection is NOT about privacy.  

                          Third, my objection has far more to do with the reason this story was posted than the effect--it's here as a salacious scandal-mongering piece to draw attention to what was thought to be a scoop--that Keyes' daughter is gay.  There've been no expose's at DKos about Mary Cheney being gay, because it's old new.  This is an attempt to use the private life of a 19 year old to get at her father and his political party, and it was done with information not intended to be circulated in public.  And it's below what I want for this site and what I want for my party.

                          •  LOL (none)
                            No, it isn't protected, if I go to the link from here listserv posts I find everything listed in this and other entries.  Try it yourself:

                            www.xanga.com/Xmisled0youthX

                            OK,so what is it about?  If your objection is not about her privacy (which doesn't exist given she is out), what is the objection based upon?

                            That Alan Keyes out daughter is campaigning for him publicly after he has attacked other politicians and gay people in general is a public issue.  He has made others children a public issue. Welcome to a giant reality sandwich Alan.  

                          •  IT'S NOT ABOUT ALAN KEYES! (3.33)
                            IT'S ABOUT US!!!  Do we succumb to the level of Alan Fucking Keyes?  Do you think I'm so stupid as to think this shit matter to Alan Keyes?  Even Cheney doesn't gay-bash, but Keyes does.  What kind of fucked up life do you think his daughter is already living?  Now this?  

                            Look, even if they don't mind, I mind a hell of a lot that the intent of this was to out somebody who, the post implied, was not out and might suffer consequences from this outing.  You're arguing that it's OK, since she was already out, in which case the post is irrelevant.  

                            This is the equivilent of me saying it's wrong to shoot at somebody, but you saying it's OK to have shot at that particular person, because they were already dead.  It's the intent that's wrong here, regardless of the possibility that  the negative effect was minimal.  

                          •  How is it wrong to point out hypocrisy? (none)
                            We are talking about an adult daughter who is out so no privacy issues.  We are talking about a candidate who attacks others for dealing with their daughters differently, but then seems to be dealing with his daughter and having her campaign for him.  Because we didn't know she was a lesbian doesn't mean she wasn't out, it means we didn't know.  
                          •  Not making sense at all. (4.00)
                            What??
                            What aren't you grasping here?

                            1.  You keep insisting her blog is protected. Only parts of it are. The pictures of her girlfriend, and the posts where she she writes that she's "queer" are WIDE OPEN for the public to see. THEY ARE NOT PROTECTED. Arch keeps trying to explain that to you. You kept coming back with THEY"RE PROTECTED!!!
                            2.  You should at least post back to him that he was right for krap's sake, and you were wrong, because it was a central point to your arguement.
                            3.  Maya chose not to protect her girlfriend's privacy by posting pictures to a damn PUBLIC BLOG of her and her girlfriend. PUBLIC. PULIC. PUBLIC. So if I link to Kos's PUBLIC blog about something her posted, am I invading his damn privacy?? If you feel sorry for her girlfriend because the picture was up, blame Maya for posting pictures on the INTERNET for god's sake. No one broke into her private vault for these.
                            4. You also keep yelling that Kos OUTED her, and then compare apples to oranges by stating something about if someone is dead, do you shoot them anyway? Whaaaaaaafaaaaaaa is that all about?

                            Here: Let me explain what outing means in this sense. It means that no one in the public eye knew that that person was gay. That is not the case here. Maya has a public blog. Maya posts pictures of her girlfriend and posts non-stop on her public blog that is NOT protected and is wide open for the world to see that she is queer. So again, no one outed her. So stop using that word.

                            You seem to be most upset about Kos supposedly outing her when he did nothing of the sort, and then claim otherwise when called on it and talk about killing dead people.

                          •  Evidence? (none)
                            You also keep yelling that Kos OUTED her,

                            Show me evidence of where I "shouted" that Kos had outed her, as opposed to my supported claim that Kos intended to out her.  

                            Also, has it occured to you that many of these comments were made before you arrived on the scene, when the picture was up and the rhetorical question of the title wasn't really answered?  It wasn't certain, for if it were, Markos wouldn't have written "If this is a hoax, and it very well could be..."  There were comments about her mistaken belief that some of what she wrote she believed to be protected.  Everything of the pre-updated posted smacked of an "outing."  Therefore, the comparison between what wss intended as an outing and succeeded as an outing and what was intended as an outing but really wasn't because the person was already out to her family, friends and anyone she cared to permit know is a relevant one.  It's too bad you can't see that.  

                            As for apologizing for claiming it was protected, call me crazy, but this:

                            Xanga apparently allows parts of the site to be "protected" from those not on a special list, but Xanga has poor technology, as some of that protected content can be easily found. For example, here's the post where she hides parts of her site.

                            ...is why I said it was protected.  

                            Markos claimed it was protected, but that he was showing us information she believed was hidden from the public.  Therefore, Markos' intent was to out her.  I care less about the fact that he may have been too late to the scene, that she may already be out, than the fact that it was his intent to out her only because she's Alan Keyes' daughter and because he was given access to something he thought was private information and which he believed and described as something Maya Keyes also thought was kept from the public.  

                            I've said it now about five times.  The intent was wrong, regardless of the execution.  So don't tell me I'm not making sense because he didn't really out her.  Before you tell me I've failed to make sense, you might want to try to succeed in understanding what I'm actually saying.  

                •  You've Made My Point For Me (3.50)
                  Good heavens!  If it were Obama's daughter, do you think the Republicans would take the "high road" and not publicize his daughter's sexuality because it wasn't pertinent to the candidate?

                  I'm all for taking the fight to 'em, but there's a huge difference between taking the "high road" and what we see here.  

                  "If you aren't completely appalled, then you haven't been paying attention."

                  by Savage on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:04:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Bet you're straight. (3.00)
                    Nyah-nyah-nyah-nyah-nah.

                    This kid doesn't seem to think the worst thing anyone could do to her is tell folks she's gay.  She seems just fine doing it herself.  In other words, baby, she's out.  And if she's out and if she's campaigning with her dad, guess what?  she's fair game.

                    •  You Win.... (none)
                      I'm straight.  And I never said she was "outed" here.  I did say this has no business here.  It's fine if you disagree with that, but don't start bitching when it's our guys teenage kids having there life posted and commented on by FReepers.

                      And, yes, I realize that it already happens.  In fact, that's my point.

                      "If you aren't completely appalled, then you haven't been paying attention."

                      by Savage on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:27:45 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Looks like we're going to agree to disagree (4.00)
                        The kid's over 18
                        The pic was on the kid's site
                        The kid is working for a campaign
                        The kid is working for a campaign that is actively trashing people like her, and, people like me...

                        And I think this is a big fuck-you from the kid to her dad, and I'm all for it.  

                        If my dad were an asshole like that and I felt I had a family obligation to work my ass off for him but I secretly wanted him to lose and I had the power to make even a 1% point difference in his turn-out, I'd do it.

                        The kid's a hero.

                •  Bottom line (4.00)
                  If we have to do this to "win", I'd rather lose (and I'm a pretty damned pragmatic Dem with pretty flexible morals).

                  The remaining question to be answered is "Do I want to support a site that posts shit like this?"  If I want to be disgusted, I can just read LGF or InstaPundit.

                  •  Oh come on... (4.00)
                    We don't have to do this to win, and that's the point.  We're going to win this one anyway.  Big deal.  Do you think for a minute that Keyes is going to beat Obama?  No way.

                    See the point is that, even in races that we're going to win, we're not going to be wimps.

                    The kid is over 18.  The kid is out of the closet.  The kid is campaigning with her dad.  

                    My bet is that she wants this public, and so, surprise!, it is.

                •  bleh (none)
                  Good heavens!  If it were Obama's daughter, do you think the Republicans would take the "high road" and not publicize his daughter's sexuality because it wasn't pertinent to the candidate?

                  We're not at war with Allan Keys. He's going to lose, so this kind of thing dosn't matter.

                  •  That's where you are wrong... (none)
                    I don't care if Keyes is polling at 1%... we ARE at WAR with the Fright-WingTM (which Keyes is a rabid anti-gay figure and spokesperson of) because they have declared, and have been waging, non-stop culture war on us for decades.

                    Wake the fuck up.

                    cheers,

                    Mitch Gore

                    No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

                    by Lestatdelc on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 06:35:55 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  It was INTENDED to be private (none)
          Read the original post: the source is a post that was made private and only viewable by a list of pre-approved people, online friends and such. Because Xanga's security is weak, though, someone was able to get around it and found this post and now we all get to read what she meant to be private.

          Recall the recent "Watergate II" in which a Democratic computer nerd accidentally left unprotected a bunch of strategy files related to the Democrats' political moves. It wasn't meant to be available to the Republicans, but they went ahead and dove in.

          They're not that much different. But where one was partisan politics, this one is partisan politics AND using a 19-year-old girl's sexual orientation, which she obviously isn't making public, to attack a guy who's going to loose the race anyway.

      •  hit submit too soon (4.00)
        I wanted to add that while some may find this a worthwhile topic, perhaps one of the most noted and respected liberal blogs is not the best place to air this piece of dirty laundry.  There are plenty of places to disseminate such stories, and we shouldn't give anyone any reason to attack this one.

        Those who stand for nothing fall for anything - Alexander Hamilton

        by patagonia on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:33:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  no kidding.. (4.00)
      I mean, come on Kos, a) she's just a kid, and b) Keyes was crashing and burning already. If anything, this will make him seem more human and bump him up two or three points. Which should put him with in...oh, 52 or 53 points of victory. I say, let the poor kid use the internet to network with some of her friends without being subject to comment from a gazillion eager lefties (including me!). Gay and 19 is hard enough already. Just being 19 is hard enough. And furthermore, if this is some wildly elaborate hoax, everyone posting here (including me!) will look kinda silly.
    •  I agree (4.00)
      Frankly, if this is true and Alan knows, she's already in deep enough shit with her parents.  If she's still in the closet with her family (If I were gay and in her shoes, I'd be in the closet) then this might out her.  Putting it on a website and letting people know that you're a conservative Republican's kid in any case would almost certainly trigger a screaming match between the two.  As much as I dislike Keyes, I still don't think that this is really acceptable.  I'm for deleting all of this, if only for her family's sake.
    •  Yeah, but this is Chicago... (none)
      ...where the private lives of political kids are front and center. Usually as objects of ridicule.
    •  What the fuck are you babbling about (none)
      She posted her "personal lifE" on the internet... SHE put it out for the whole world to see. And good on her.

      That her father is an anti-gay bigoted freak and trying to shape PUBLIC POLICY is relevant.

      This is not someone invading her privacy, but her posting her stuff on the internet for thew world to see.

      Get fucking real for a second.

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

      by Lestatdelc on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:45:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why is the Posted? (3.73)
    We all know Maya Keyes is parentally impared.  If she knows it, why make her life more difficult than it already would be because of her dad being Alan Keyes?  

    Besides, if we don't know that this is a hoax, it shouldn't be up here.

    We're supposed to be better than this.

    •  Agreed (4.00)
      I went to high school with his son, who was a charming fellow, and feel it would be inappropriate to mention anything beyond that.  let's step back from this

      who in the what now?

      by slapshot57 on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:27:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thank You (3.60)
      "Outing" hypocritical Repug Congressman is one thing, but this goes waaaay over the line -- hoax or not.  We ARE better than this.

      "If you aren't completely appalled, then you haven't been paying attention."

      by Savage on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:27:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We Accept Stuff Like This... (4.00)
        ...and we forfeit our disgust at the abuse suffered by Hilary Clinton, and we make it more likely the Edwards kids have a shitty life as long as their Dad is VP and maybe more.  
      •  Ditto (none)
        This is a gross invasion of privacy.

        Coming up: the most important election of our lifetimes.

        by Wagster on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:00:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What are you blathering about? (none)
        She is out, has her own website that the WORDL can read, and campaigns for her dad, who is an anti-bigot.

        How is this "outing" anyone at all...?

        How is this NOT relevant to a rabid anti-gay bigot seeking public office who is a hypocrite to the nth degree, particularly on the issues of non-heterosexuality given the fact his daughter is an out lesbian?

        You are making ZERO sense at all, on ANY of the issues touched on in this.

        cheers,

        Mitch Gore

        No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

        by Lestatdelc on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:50:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So, It's OK Because... (none)
          ...it didn't work?  That's an idiotic position.  If the execution was poor it doesn't mean the intent is excusable.  That's why in the criminal law there are penalties for attempted offenses and not just those that succeeded.  
          •  Huh? (none)
            Your post makes zero sense... what "didn't work"...?

            The fact is she is out and has stated it publicly on publiclly accessable web sites, and she campaigns for her father, who is rabidly anti-gay, and she herself is gay.

            So I am not sure what "intent" you are reffering to.

            This faux indignation over this "outing" is pathetic.

            cheers,

            Mitch Gore

            No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

            by Lestatdelc on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 11:42:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Actually.... (none)
          I'm not saying she was outed.  I didn't say it anywhere in this entire post.  I'm quite obviously pissed about this, though, so maybe didn't make my point as clearly as I could have.  Let me try again.  I have seen posts on this site that have reported on the "outing" of some particularly hypocritical Republican Congressman and the controversy in the comments over said posts.  I was not offended by the posts because of the hypocrisy that was being exposed.  It was about the hypocrisy, not "outing."  But this is a kid and, out already or not, really doesn't deserve this.  If Kos has a picture of Keyes himself bent over the bar -- post away.  I think the kid's life is probably hard enough, though, and I sure HOPE we're better than this.

          "If you aren't completely appalled, then you haven't been paying attention."

          by Savage on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 11:29:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Doesn't deserve what? (none)
            Her being an out lesbian exposing the hypocrisy of her father...?

            What exactly do you envision her not "deserving" of since she has publicly expressed her sexuality on a publicly accessible website and she actively campaigns for her father.

            So what are you imagining she is undeserving of that you think this exposes her to unfairly?

            Chapter and verse please.

            She is out.

            She post her sexuality on a publicly accessible website.

            She campaigns with and for her father.

            Where is this crossing ANY lines of propriety...?

            cheers,

            Mitch Gore

            No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

            by Lestatdelc on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 11:46:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  aoeu (none)
        Spare me your self rightous rhetoric.

        My turtles laughter
        was loud when the Yankees lost
        22 to zilch

        by TealVeal on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 03:05:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  also (4.00)
      from a purely political standpoint, is there anything left to gain in bashing Keyes or his family?

      can't this only backfire on a candidate who has a 40-point lead?

      "George Bush has no strategy for Iraq.  I do." - John Kerry, 9/20/04

      by thirdparty on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:28:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I am in complete agreement ... (none)
      ...with you on this.
    •  sigh (none)
      I feel so sorry for her now.

      Not because she's gay.  But because she's got such a fucked up father.  And now she's outed for our entertainment pleasure.  Think about the crap she must get from him about all this.

  •  Two wrongs (3.64)
    Isn't this type of post really beneath the serious minded voter.  No matter what your opinion of Alan Keye's daughter, it certainly does not elevate you to present this type of commentary.
  •  I'm in support of posting this. (2.80)
    If she hides things that she wishes to specifically "protect" on her blog site, but hasn't taken the proper steps to truly secure it, then it's fair game for anyone to crack into it if they have the means.  I agree that we don't know what this photo means yet, but I am all for posting it, generating discussion, and trying to find out more about her positions on things, etc.
  •  you are way too into trying to out people (none)
    I understand the hypocrisy involved and since the big debate over Dreier I notice he hasn't been on the TV circuit lately.

    I don't give a shit who is gay and who is not.  If they are gay they deserve to be outed because they are hypocrites.  

    But do we have to start out by "Is this so and so caught in a comprising position?.....I have no proof that shes gay but, wow, what a picture huh?"

    The other poster is right, when I was in college it was a five dollar bet to get a girl to kiss her best friend.  

    Oh well troll away, I'm used to it.

    wax on, wax off dubya-san

    by thebloviator on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:26:36 PM PDT

    •  we had a theory in college (1.50)
      95% of girls are three shots away from lesbianism.

      made for interesting nights

      who in the what now?

      by slapshot57 on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:28:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Huh? (4.00)
      Not necessarily directed at you bloviator, but ... Why is the first assumption always that the person is embarassed to be gay and any mention of that fact is i.e. outing them?  This really is offensive to gays.  Do you really think that all gays are in the closet?  Or is it just that she must be in the closet because she is Keyes' daugther?  From the quotes on her blog she seems justly proud of her preference and is an activist on gay issues.  I frankly think this hush--hush he or she is gay attitude is outrageous.  Think how ridiculous and hurtful Keyes' comments about his daughter's preference must be to her?  Also, from his belief he must think his own daughter is going to burn forever in hell.  This is not a game, but we need to put the onus of shame on those who are really trying to wedge our families apart with their religious hate-speech, those would would soil the sacrosanct constitutional birthrights of every American by codifying hate into that document which tells us that our creator endows each of us invioable rights.  I wouldn't shove Alan Keyes's daughter into a closet of your own making, unless you know for a fact she wants to be there.

      "Two daiquiris/ withdrew into a corner of the gorgeous room/ and one told the other a lie." John Berryman -- Dream Song 16

      by Twodaiquiris on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:53:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Just For The Record.... (none)
        My disgust at this post has absolutely nothing to do with any feeling or assumption that Maya Keyes is in any way embarassed to be gay.  And I wouldn't know if Kos just "outed" her or not.  That has nothing whatsoever to do with my complete disgust.  This has no business here.

        "If you aren't completely appalled, then you haven't been paying attention."

        by Savage on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:19:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Fair enough. (none)
          I see where your coming from, and I can see that the way the post was written was a bit flippant.  So I guess some are reacting to that tone, probably moreso than the idea of someone being outed.  

          "Two daiquiris/ withdrew into a corner of the gorgeous room/ and one told the other a lie." John Berryman -- Dream Song 16

          by Twodaiquiris on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:25:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  It doesn't matter (4.00)
        if you think gay people should be proud to be gay.  The question is:  should her sexuality be private or be discussed by hundreds of thousands of strangers?  And is dailykos the forum for talking about her sexuality?  She's not running for office.  But it's not even about her being gay specifically--that's just what gives the story such resonance.  The private life of a young girl should remain private.
        •  Double huh? (none)
          This is on her blog, and her girlfriend's blag as well.  She is proud of her sexuality and is not trying to be private about it, and since we are in the midst of a historic attack on gay rights and demonization of gays by the right . . . it is relevant.  Why do conservatives push this kind of hate that wounds their own children?  

          "Two daiquiris/ withdrew into a corner of the gorgeous room/ and one told the other a lie." John Berryman -- Dream Song 16

          by Twodaiquiris on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:36:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Moot question (none)
          That question is a non-starter since she put her sexuality out for public access on the internet.

          This isn't some clandestine thing, or even an "outing" at all.

          She is out, and posted about her sexuality on a blog accessible to the world.

          cheers,

          Mitch Gore

          No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

          by Lestatdelc on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:55:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If so, (none)
            and if this really wasn't a part of her blog she made an effort to keep private (something explicitly stated in the original post), I guess I still don't see why we're talking about it.  Find me a pic of Alan Keyes swapping spit with Matt Drudge in a nightclub and I'll see the relevance.  Having a gay daughter doesn't make Keyes a hypocrite.  Kos took the pic down, at least.
            •  Becuase he rails against the daughters of others (none)
              who are gay... because he equates his own daughters sexual orientation with Nazism, and he is running for office.

              Because he wants to codify discrimination based on sexual orientation into the Constitution which impact other people's daughters as well.

              Because he IS a hypocrite to rail about Cheney's daughter but not excoriate himself.

              cheers,

              Mitch Gore

              No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

              by Lestatdelc on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 12:59:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Right. (none)
                And we're talking about him, not her.  Brother, I don't disagree with a thing you said.  We don't use the sexuality of our opponents' children against them (hopefully), but it does go to show.
              •  "lestat", (none)
                why did you zero my post below?  you really think i'm a super troll?  you're abusing the system, and that shit is getting extremely old.
                •  Your comment to another blogger saying... (none)
                  "based on what kind of asshole dad sired you, then god help us all. "

                  Is Super-Troll worthy.

                  I am not abusing anything in the rating system. That remark and post was and remains wholly without merit and rightfully deserves a "0" in my estimation.

                  cheers,

                  Mitch Gore

                  No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

                  by Lestatdelc on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 01:21:13 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  My full comment was: (none)
                    "If karma was doled out based on what kind of asshole dad sired you, then god help us all.  There's nothing GREAT about outing your enemies' children.", which was responding to a comment blaming Keyes' daughter for Alan Keyes' positions.

                    You know that's not a troll comment.  I can give "0"s too, and I haven't.  I've enjoyed your posts before, so I'm pretty baffled as to why you're handing me zeros tonight.

    •  Bright College Days... (none)
      I went to a small Christian Liberal Arts college.  Of course, I never got laid during the whole ordeal.  All the women were either fundamentalists, dating some guy, dating some girl, or a combination.  My perpetual roomie never had a GF, so occasionally we'd joke with eachother about our unbridled passion for hot sweaty man-sex.  Maybe it's time for me to go back to college...
  •  Her friend "Jerrykins" (none)
    http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=stokedgfx

    Linked to from the blog.  He links back.  HRC Green party gay activist who helps unload Keyes 2004 literature until he's sore.

    You know, if I did that, I think my brain would implode from cognitive dissonance.

  •  Woah! (2.33)
    Woah!  

    I thought I accidentally clicked some porn spam when I signed on and saw that pic.  

    I guess him and Cheney have even more in common than they thought...

    This is GREAT!

    karma baby, karma...

    •  If karma was doled out (3.50)
      based on what kind of asshole dad sired you, then god help us all.  There's nothing GREAT about outing your enemies' children.  
    •  Don't start... (4.00)
      First of all everyone, if anyone of you have been in gay political circles you've undoubtedly heard that she is gay.  

      Second, if you read her very open blog, you can see that she is openly gay.

      Third, I'm not into "outing" indiscriminately, but the girl has obviously been "out" already.

      Finally, don't start giving me low ratings when I'm just offering my opinion above.  If you want to play the ratings game, I have plenty of friends on here who will return in kind.  So, as I respect your opinions, please respect mine.  

      •  Oh lord! (4.00)
        I find it wholly ironic that I am strapping young GAY man and my post gets 4 low ratings from people who are probably not even gay.

        LOL...just amazing

        I guess even liberals like to persecute gay people if they don't tow the PC line.  I hope those who are so quick to judge and gave me low ratings realize that this same "quick judgement" attitude is what can sometimes make GAY life so difficult.

        Isn't it ironic, don't you think?

        •  The question I have is this: (none)
          why no challenge to the character of a person who would support a falimingly anti-gay politician against the truth of her own situation: being herself gay.

          The issue isn't who's being "outted"; it's that of an apparent homosexual campaigning in behalf of an anti-homosexual candidate.  That, being inherently an attack on her own situation, Maya appears to be preferring a possibility of gaining power as more important than her own contrary truth.  That raises questions of character, from which scrutiny cannot be excluded those who themselves raise such questions.

          Perhaps predictably, instead, we get nonsensical assertions that "outing" a person who is already "out," which is implicitly an attack on presumtive "homophobia".

          The relevance "homophobia" could have in this instance is in the question, "Why is Maya supporting homophobia?"

          A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on -- Mark Twain

          by jnagarya2 on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 09:28:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I am ashamed (3.90)
    to see this here.  It's not her fault her dad is Alan Keyes the crazy wingnut.  Big freakin' deal.  My Dad is a strong conservative who's going to vote for George Bush- who cares?  Honestly, stuff like this is embarassing.  Stick to what really matters and troll me if you want, it won't make me any less liberal.  

    "The quality of mercy is not strained. It driveth as the gentle rain on the place beneath."- Shakespeare, "Merchant of Venice"

    by tubalefty on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:27:44 PM PDT

  •  Prior Evidence (none)
    This guy's blog entry, ostensibly from May of 2001, links to her blog, indicating that her blog has existed for at least a few years.  (That is, provided that Xanga even existed in 2001.  I have no idea.)

    -Waldo Jaquith

  •  She's Still A Wingnut... (none)
    Who cares if she is gay..she still a poor warped child.  A product of her completely wacked father. What's up with the Margaret Sanger was a racist stuff? Where did she get that?  I'd also question the statement that 80% of Planned Parenthood facilities are in minority neighborhoods.

    Dissent when neccessary, is the duty of the patriot.

    by the lib pat on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:29:32 PM PDT

  •  asdf (none)
    If it's on the web it is already out there for the public to see.  They just have to find it.

    Liquidtoast Blogl
    ---
    "Hell is other people at breakfast" - Sartre

    by Aurostion on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:29:53 PM PDT

  •  What the fuck is this doing on Kos? (3.81)
    Have the Freepers and their "strength through any means; damn the innocent" philosophy taken over this site?

    "The identity of the loser is perfectly clear. It is the Nation's confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian of the rule of law." Bush v. Gore

    by DeanorBust on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:30:18 PM PDT

    •  Holy SHIT!! (4.00)
      Even here there's nothing like two women kissing to get everyone all excited.  

      New thread, please.

      We need a better president.

      by GOTV on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:53:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What the fuck are you babbling about? (none)
      Damn the innocent?

      You are out of your gourd.

      Nobody is being "damned" here other than Alan Keyes for a being a psychotic bigot.

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

      by Lestatdelc on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:59:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This is a war. (none)
      This is a war. A deadly war; remember Argentina, remember Chile. The disappeared could very easily become our reality.

      We must use, every tool we have short of violence to win. These people are utterly ruthless. If we fight fair and they fight with no rules, we will lose.

      Keyes attacked Cheney's daughter becasue she is gay. Keyes daughter is an adult, so she is fair game. And, if you read her blog Maya shares her father's twisted, derranged ideas about abortion, Kerry and more. She campaigns with her father. In their words she is a "politcal operative." They would not hesitate to destroy our "political operatives."

      Keyes is a nut, but I see him as a canary in the mine shaft; he is their unconscious. He says what conservatives say privately and what they would say if they had weaker internal editors.

      His daughter is gay and he hates gay people. So, it is fair game to expose his lying, corrrupt life. If Maya gets embarassed by her public words, maybe it will cause her to examine her conscience. It is that simple.

      They are prepared to use any weapon, including violence to win. Remember that they launched an illegal war of conquest based on lies. Imagine what they would do to you if they felt the need to "take you out." We are in the fight of our lives and we cannot get wobbly or holier than thou. That attitude hurts us.

      •  So... (none)
        We must destroy the village in order to save it?

        I'd like to be able to think we're the good guys.  We don't need to drag Keyes' daughter into this.  She's innocent of her father's misdeeds and insanity.

        •  She campaigns for (none)
          her father. And, she is a wingnut; she is an adult who is responsible for what she says and she shares many of her fathers ideas. And, she is publicly out.

          This is not burning a village in order to save it, it is undermining a Republican campaign to save our lives.

          •  So (part 2) (none)
            So attack her for her own insanity.

            I just think it's like outing the daughter of a 1950's segregation Senator for being married interracially.  It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

            •  Did you have the same bad taste when (none)
              Newt Gingrich, Bob Livingston and Bob Barr were "outed" for their marital infedelities during the Clinton impeachment?

              Or when "Dr. Laura's" nude photo's were released?

              If these people are going to base their public lives on prescuting other for their sexuality they must be taught that they will pay a terrible price for it.

              It doesn't matter that she is not the candidate herself; she campaigns for her father and shares his beliefs.

              And, I wouldn't flinch at "outing the daughter of a 1950's segregation Senator for being married interracially" if she ironed his white sheets or held teas for KKK womens auxillary.

              •  I disagree (none)
                "If these people are going to base their public lives on prescuting other for their sexuality they must be taught that they will pay a terrible price for it."

                Keyes' daughter doesn't have a publc life of her own.  She's had it forced on her.  

                As for outing supporters, should I be able to out you for marital infidelities if you support Clinton on this board? Or for lying about previous experiences on a resume because you think Bush lied about his experiences and you say so?

                Should the media publish pictures of Chelsea Clinton giving a boyfriend a hummer despite her father's experience?

                Where's the line?

        •  She campaigns for (none)
          her father. And, she is a wingnut; she is an adult who is responsible for what she says and she shares many of her fathers ideas. And, she is publicly out.

          This is not burning a village in order to save it, it is undermining a Republican campaign to save our lives.

  •  Uh, has dkos been hacked? (3.72)
    This can't be from the Kos I know and love. If it is, well, I'm a bit suprised. Perhaps you had a really full weekend and might be a bit bleary eyed by Sunday evening, but this post is just sad for so many reasons.

    And by the way Kos, have you even been INSIDE a nightclub recently? Like in the last decade?

    -mrd71

  •  When Alan Keyes Made Other Folks Kids an Issue (3.66)
    His kids became an issue.  She's posting in his yahoo group with the blog link in that forum.  At that point she is being a political activist and freely outing herself.  This isn't outing, this is pointing out that Keyes' daughter is a lesbian.  
  •  I vote against future incidences of this (3.77)
    I feel it is inappropriate to go after family members of politicians who are not actually paid staff.

    aside from that, that's definitely a lesbian kiss, not a we're drunk. experimental kiss

    who in the what now?

    by slapshot57 on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:31:36 PM PDT

  •  Maya Keyes (none)
    From a photo collection at The Illinois Leader:

    Maya Keyes, the Keyes' 19 year old daughter, loves writing and may be a poet or a journalist, Keyes said Sunday evening on Bruce DuMont's "Beyond the Beltway," radio talk show.
  •  Don't know if this is appropriate. (2.50)
    But it is kind of a hot picture. More like this!

    To first time voters: Voting is just like driving; if you want to go forward, you put the lever on 'D'. If you want to go backward, put it on 'R'.

    by AWhitneyBrown on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:32:01 PM PDT

  •  limit the destruction (3.84)
    Find me a Republican Congresscritter who votes homophobe and lives homophile, and I'll applaud the exposure of his hypocrisy.

    Find me a child of someone who happens to be an asshole in public life--and who likely is screwed up enough from growing up in that unnatural environment, with an arguably unbalanced parent like Keyes no less--and I'll say you've gone too far.

    Way too far. And it's not like Obama exactly needs to embarrass Keyes.

    If this does prove to be true, I hope he comes out and says that he loves his daughter however she chooses to live her life. The country won't be undone by parents loving and supporting their children, however "inconsistent" that might reveal them to be.

    I am disappointed to see this sort of scurrilous trash posted on a site I generally respect and value highly.

  •  priceless shit from Maya Keyes, Anarchist. (2.50)
    " As I also cannot vote for "President" Bush, who sanctions the killing of innocent Iraqis, I suppose this means I will have to be true to my anarchist heart and not vote for the president at all."  

    "Destruction of the rest of America will take place ASAP post-elections, so that after Bush loses and is back in Texas we can quickly and efficiently get..." (lost the thought, Maya?)

    "...how utterly useless most states in the country are. I mean, seriously, the majority of states in the country could be axed and who would miss them much? America would be much better off, we decided, if we downsized a bit...<snip>Then, much harder than picking which states could go was picking which ten people and ten people only from the remaining states about to be nuked we would choose to save."  (Abortion = evil ; genocide = good.)

    "Fiorst, at a parade in Kankakee county I was standing while my dad greeted people, and every few people would come up and ask if I was his daughter and tell me how much they loved him...
    then another guy sidled up rather discreetly and said "Um, excuse me, I don't mean to interrupt, but I'm assuming you're family?" So I glued on another smile and said "Yes, I'm his daughter..." to which he said "No, no... I mean... you're... family..."  (Lesbian and proud.)

    •  This stuff is useful (none)
      Did Alan Keyes, good christian, raise a lesbian anarchist daughter?  Maybe all the wingnut followers of Alan's social directives would be interested in the results of the application of those directives?  Maybe they would then realize that Keyes is full of utter bullshit.

      You can't make this stuff up.

      I was born with a plastic spoon in my mouth.

      by lapin on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:58:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Maya Keyes is NOT running for office (2.50)
      Have you no shame? At long last have you no shame? No standards? No compassion? No perspective?

      What makes you any better than they are?

      "The problems of today will not be solved by the same thinking that produced the problems in the first place" - Albert Einstein

      by galiel on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 11:27:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh please (3.00)
        Your faux indignation is pathetic.

        Her father fucking conflated and attributed homosexuality with the rise of communism and nazism, and she is an out lesbian ADULT.

        Give me a fucking break.

        She is campaigning for her father, and posted her sexuality on a publicly accessible website, so please don't try and paint her as some victim. She is not a victim, nor is she even be assailed by anyone here, only her father is, because of his glaring and stunning hypocrisy given that he has a lesbian daughter.

        cheers,

        Mitch Gore

        No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

        by Lestatdelc on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 11:53:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thank you for proving my point! (2.20)
          "faux indignation" is an ad hominem, implying that I am not sincere. Don't project your lack of moral standards on me. I mean what I say.

          I don't care who here father is, you don't visit the sins of the father on his children.

          If he were  a closet-gay homophobe, out away, as many have been outed in recent weeks--and there has been no outbreak of outrage such as you see here.

          His hypocrisy does not justify you harming her.

          It is remarkable how oblivious you and others like kos can be. If you were truly open-minded and attuned to the community, you would sense that there is something markedly different about the response to this incident vs others.

          I, for one, have never made the slightest objection to the outing of gay homophobic Congressmen.

          This is different. The fact that you are too attached to being right for you to listen, the fact that you instantly attack the messenger and try to discredit the genuine feelings others have, is a testament to your willingness to justify the means with what you think are righteous ends.

          You only prove my point.

          "The problems of today will not be solved by the same thinking that produced the problems in the first place" - Albert Einstein

          by galiel on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 12:00:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The only point I have proven is you are clueless (none)
            My own "Lack of moral standards"...?

            Too funny.

            I am not visiting any "sins" of her father on her... and please point to ANY harm being visited upon her by me or anyone else because SHE publicly stated her sexuality (replete with photos)...?

            I personally don't care what the herd thinks, there was no outing of her, no harm, in fact no insult being directed at her for her sexuality at all, only that her being an open lesbian exposes the utter moral bankruptcy and hypocrisy of her father.

            That is not a reflection on her, but of him.

            And I find you comical attempt to claim my post proves you point is nothing if not bemusing.

            Your outrage is wholly misguided and yes, fake.

            There is no harm being visited on anyone other than Alan Keyes who rightly deserves it) and no privacy being violated.

            Hence your stand and the knee-jerk non-think of most of the other here who are carping about this being "terrible" and "disgusting" and "beneath" this website is in a a word... crap.

            cheers,

            Mitch Gore

            No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

            by Lestatdelc on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 12:13:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  aoeu (none)
        wah wah wah bitch bitch bitch.

        She's helping him run for office!

        Next whine please.

        My turtles laughter
        was loud when the Yankees lost
        22 to zilch

        by TealVeal on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 03:10:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  fake (none)
    this picture looks pretty fake to me, notice the bluring around Keyes nose and the girls face, also it seems a little over the top, she is kissing a girl wearing a rainbow t-shirt, do most lesbians wear rainbow t-shirts out and about usually, not sure if I believe this.
  •  Makes Sense (4.00)
    In my experience, wherever there is such virile homophobia as is exhibited by Keyes, there is some homosexuality nearby.  This country needs to get out of the closet when we are trying to amend our Constitution to persecute gays, and those leading the fight are either gays or have family ties.  This issue is important to what sort of American we will have for our children in 20 years.  

    "Two daiquiris/ withdrew into a corner of the gorgeous room/ and one told the other a lie." John Berryman -- Dream Song 16

    by Twodaiquiris on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:32:59 PM PDT

    •  Someone gay nearby (none)
      True, near a Republican, there is usually someone gay nearby.

      • Phyllis Schlafly's son is gay
      • Terry Randall's (Operation Rescue) adopted son is gay
      • Newt Gingrich's sister is a lesbian
      • Dick Cheney's daughther is a lesbian

      One observation I have made about closet gay Republicans like Ed Schrock or David Dreier is that they tend to vote very anti-gay perhaps to prove that they are not gay.
    •  Common "preacher's daughter" syndrome (none)
      I think it's fair game. She's got a blog, she's not closeted, there's no "outing" here. We're pointing out that Alan Keyes is not a very tolerant man in his public bloviations, but in his real family life he clearly understands the need for tolerance. That makes him a hypocrite. To correct this, he should instead preach what he practices.
      •  A point of distinction.. (none)
        Kos isn't "attacking" Maya Keyes for being Gay.  He's highlighting the fact to bring to the forefront Alan Keyes Hypocracy.

        Alan Keyes is perfectly comfortable saying Dick Cheney's daughter is a sinner and a hedonist, but does he feel the same way about his own daughter?  And if so how does that reflect on Alan Keyes as a person?

        That's all this is.  No one here is (or should be)looking down on Maya for being a lesbian.  But rather looking at how Alan Keyes treats Homosexuals in general, does he feel this way about his own daugher?

  •  I'm upset about this and against this! (3.55)
    Shame on you, Kos, for "outing" the daughter of a gay politican. She did not ask to be "outed" in this fashion. This is way too low----I am ashamed that this happened here on this site.

    What's madness but nobility of the soul at odds with circumstance?

    by slinkerwink on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:33:15 PM PDT

    •  freudian slip? (4.00)
      "Shame on you, Kos, for "outing" the daughter of a gay politican..."

      Whether or not Keyes is gay, I also register my displeasure with this post, mainly because it's so unnecessary.

      Going after Keyes is fun but useless, since he's going to lose anyway. But his daughter... well, i don't know why this warrants a front-page post on this blog 5 weeks away from an election that has so many more pressing issues.

      Focus.

      "George Bush has no strategy for Iraq.  I do." - John Kerry, 9/20/04

      by thirdparty on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:36:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  damn freudian slips (none)
        I was thinking about David Drier, and why I didn't have a problem with outing him. It's way too low to "out" the daughter of a republican politician.

        What's madness but nobility of the soul at odds with circumstance?

        by slinkerwink on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:41:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's a bit low BUT (3.33)
          If Keyes were elected (thank god it won't happen), he would presumably make the FMA his top legislative priority.  Certainly the fact that his daughter is a lesbian would be relevant then.

          Also, she is an adult.  If she were under 18 I might feel differently.

          I'm with BlogActive and RawStory on this.  It's the hypocricy, stupid.    

          Will James R. Bath reveal the secret behind George Bush's National Guard Service before it's too late?

          by pontificator on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:57:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Don't be So Weak (2.80)
      Republicans play hardball like this all the time.
      If the Democrats seriously want to win, they have to roll in the slime a litle bit.

      Chance favors the prepared mind.

      by hypnyx on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:54:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Are you insane? (none)
      There is no "outing" here about her, only "pouting" Alan Keyes as being a hypocritical freak.

      His daughter is "out" and posted her sexuality on the internet where the world can see.

      Get a grip on reality.

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

      by Lestatdelc on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 11:05:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  One more objection (none)
    I'd say "Lesbian" might be a bit of a stretch anyways.

    "Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right" - Carl Schurz

    by RBH on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:33:20 PM PDT

  •  I don't care (4.00)
    If this is real, she's at least partly out, but there are degrees of being out. I'm not entirely comfortable with the outing thing when it's Congresspeople voting to put an asterisk in the 14th amendment for gay people, and this isn't even close to that. She's done nothing wrong, she's 19 years old, and it's not her fault her father's a raging homophobe. Her private life should remain private, and her semi-private life should remain semi-private. Please consider taking this post down.
    •  I agree with you on taking this post down (3.66)
      This is just way too shameful for Kos to do this. What if it was his own kid? What if his son didn't want to be publically "outed" like that? There are degrees of being "out" such as being out to one's friends, or to one's family, or out to the entire world.

      What's madness but nobility of the soul at odds with circumstance?

      by slinkerwink on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:36:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is why dems loose..... (none)
        Just not willing to win at all costs.

        Now I am all for taking the pictures down.  I even admit that this is below the belt and in a race where Obama is up by 40pts.. totally unnecessary and uncalled for, I am just surprised by the outrage at it.  
        For one second think of what would happen if the show was on the other foot ? What if it was the Kerry daughters? would KARL ROVE use them?? You think the republicans would say "oh this isnt right."  Think McCain - black daughter -- yes it is stooping to a low.  Now if the candidate were to use this I would be appaled but I think that Dems outside organisations need to get a stiff back and be willing to hit-back at a level the repubs have no problem stooping to.  
        It is a sad state of affairs I agree. but sometimes you do what you have to do...

        •  The Pro of the Issue, Con on this Particular Sit. (none)
          I'm not thrilled to see this posting, myself, but I do have to say this.  In a year where there are anti-civil rights amendments (including in some states, rollbacks of domestic partnerships and no allowing of civil unions), who is there to speak for gay/lesbian couples when there are gay/lesbian congressmen and GOP or family members of them advocating the gross injustice of amending state constitutions and the U.S. constitution?  This is why Ed Shrock and David Dreir have been outed, and earlier, Mary Cheney has been outed.  These people should be doing the right thing and not appealing to hate or a Southern Strategy just to get votes.  But they're not, and with Constitutional Amendments (state or Federal) and Federal Court Appointments gays/lesbians of the current generation may NEVER see civil rights, and that includes their children, who may be taken away from their parents.

          Now that I've said that though, I do have to point out that if this is true, she's only 19 years old (unlike Mary Cheney or Candace who were older).  While many gay/lesbian people have seen their identites when they're young, there are "late bloomers," so my concern is the sake of Keyes, even if she stated in a public forum, somewhere.  The outing of someone this young could have very traumatic implications, I think.

        •  The Pro of the Issue, Con on this Particular Sit. (none)
          I'm not thrilled to see this posting, myself, but I do have to say this.  In a year where there are anti-civil rights amendments (including in some states, rollbacks of domestic partnerships and no allowing of civil unions), who is there to speak for gay/lesbian couples when there are gay/lesbian congressmen and GOP or family members of them advocating the gross injustice of amending state constitutions and the U.S. constitution?  This is why Ed Shrock and David Dreir have been outed, and earlier, Mary Cheney has been outed.  These people should be doing the right thing and not appealing to hate or a Southern Strategy just to get votes.  But they're not, and with Constitutional Amendments (state or Federal) and Federal Court Appointments gays/lesbians of the current generation may NEVER see civil rights, and that includes their children, who may be taken away from their parents.

          Now that I've said that though, I do have to point out that if this is true, she's only 19 years old (unlike Mary Cheney or Candace who were older).  While many gay/lesbian people have seen their identites when they're young, there are "late bloomers," including those who may not be totally sure of themselves, quite yet, and 19 is an "experimental age" for some people (when they've moved out, are at college, etc.)--so my concern is the sake of Keyes, even if she stated in a public forum, somewhere.  The outing of someone this young could have very traumatic implications, I think.  

  •  More Evidence (none)
    Her profile lists her Yahoo address as dangerousanjul@yahoo.com.  Googling for that yields just one result -- a post on the KeyesforSenate2004 mailing list, from that e-mail address, under the name of "Maya," which is Alan Keyes' daughter.  The e-mail contains in the signature the quote "The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision."

    Having read through her blog a bit, incidentally, she seems like a good kid.

    -Waldo Jaquith

    •  Yeah (none)
      Judging by her blog, she doesn't seem to be a wingnut at all.  Her ramblings are a bit naive and "sitting around the college dorm room at 3 AM after smoking pot"-ish, but not right-wing in the least.

      I get the feeling, for example, that her stance on abortion stems more from an all-encompassing anti-death sentiment.  I wouldn't be surprised if she opposed capital punishment as well.

      "The web of domination has become the web of Reason itself, and this society is fatally entangled in it." - Herbert Marcuse

      by brandex on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:41:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  good kid. (none)
      Troubled, but good.  Needs a lot of growing up but she's a firecracker.  I'm liking her more the more I read this.

      Hm.  Perhaps Dad should fuck off the ballot and Maya should run.  

  •  Please Take This Down! (3.50)
    You're better than this, kos.

    "Whether the British ruling class are wicked or merely stupid is one of the most difficult questions of our time." - George Orwell on the Spanish Civil War

    by Ramo on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:37:33 PM PDT

  •  This is a time for moral clarity (3.42)
    This. ain't. right.

    Respectfully, you should take it off your site.

    Leave her alone.

  •  More fun for Chicago area media (none)
    Although I am not sure Chicago area media (newspaper and television) is going to mention this, if they do, they are going to be talking about this for at least several days (Jesus won't vote for Obama comment lingered for a week in the Chicago area media) depending on how WaKeyes handles it.
    If he uses the occasion to attack the media (You are attacking my family member!!!), then the media will likely punish WaKeyes by keeping the story alive for a longer period of time.
    Regardless, they are going to have more fun (They seemed to have enjoyed "Jesus won't vote for Obama" comment.) covering this story.
  •  Take this down (3.50)
    Not only are you outing the CHILD of a politician. you did it by breaking into a protected portion of her website?  Even if the technology protecting that area isn't particularly strong, she obviously didn't intend for this to get widespread publication.  What purpose does this serve!?  

    Kos- do you understand the precedent you are setting here?  What if some republican who wants to expose information about your child?  How would you feel if your kid was outed on a major website when they didn't want to be?  

    This is total bullshit.

    •  Sorry, Damon, she's public domain. (2.66)
      She knew she was public domain, and she proved that she knew she was public domain, because she tried to hide part of her website specifically because the media was descending on her household.

      If she wanted this off-limits, she'd've taken it off her website entirely.  Ferchrissakes, if it's on the internet, it's public.  And her website is constructed in such a way that she can grant access to people she likes... and that is an invitation to spread information while pretending not to.

      My bet is that this was a vehicle to get the photo to the public.  She probably wanted to embarrass Daddy... she just didn't want to be held responsible for it.  That's the Republican way, after all.

      •  She Didn't Ask Her Dad... (4.00)
        ...to run for Senate and be a verifiable lunatic.  Just like Chelsea Clinton didn't ask for all the shit she took for 8 years.  
      •  You're rationalizing (none)
        That's the Republican way....

        uhuh.

      •  bullshit (3.16)
        This girl is not running for office.  This girl has no power.  Its simply not acceptable to drag this girl through the mud because you don't like her father.  If she wanted this picture to get widespread attention she had a section of her website to do that.  Its not Kos' job to decide that she really wanted this picture published.  

        Seriously are you OK with the idea that ANY detail of any relative of someone in politics is fair game?    You would be OK with it if Kos's son was outed on a major website when he didn't want to be?  Thats just rediculous in my opinion.  If she ever wanted to run for office then maybe there is a reason to pursue this.  But until then, it should be her choice whether details like this are plastered all over the web.  

        •  Oh come on. (3.40)
          I'm out on the internet.  Lots of people are.  But the difference between Maya and me is that I was out when it wasn't safe to be out.  I was out in the 70s.  I had people come to my door with pistols, faced down people with shot guns, and had my neighbor threaten to bury an axe in my forehead.

          If you think for a second that I don't know what it's like to be out, you're stoned.

          Now, about Maya.

          She is out.  She is as out as can be.  She advertises that she's gay while she's out with her dad.  Do you honestly think she doesn't know that this is going to be common knowledge?

          I think she planted that photo there to be distributed.  I really do.

          And I say this as a lesbian who has faced the danger of being out.

          •  agreed (none)
            If people objecting actually read some of the posts on her blog, they'd realize from the posts that she's not closeted at all. She wears/carries things covered in rainbow paraphernalia on the campaign trail with her dad, and people walk up to her and ask her if she's a lesbian and she says yes. If she's out to random strangers around her dad's Senate campaign, she's out.
        •  I can't believe (none)
          you got troll rated for this post. Un-fucking-believable. What the fuck is this site coming to?

          Here's a 4 to counteract the 1 you received for having the nerve to suggest it may be inappropriate to drag an innocent bystander through the mud.

          The Times-Patriot: It's like The Drudge Report, only accurate.

          by JacksonBlogs on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:51:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Xanga screwed up, not her (none)
        She put her faith in some company's security system and thought that when she marked a post "Private", it wasn't available to the public.

        It's the intention that matters, not whether she screwed it up -- even though it was XANGA that screwed it up. Some computer nerd in the House accidentally leaves a bunch of Democratic computer files out in the open -- did that make it right for the Republicans to read them and use them in their political strategy planning? Not only was it not right, but it was illegal, and this very well be, as well.

    •  nit picking but at 19 she's no longer a child but (3.00)
      a conscenting adult.

      Pssst ... there are mad men in the White House.

      by banjon on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:02:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Oh this chick's a piece of work. (3.00)
    She's against abortion because little black babies are killed more than little white babies, so it's all a plot to make America whiter.  Puh-lease.  

    And that Fire Bush button is real.  She's not voting for him.  But, she's not voting for Kerry either.  So, if she's going to vote, she's voting for Nader... BECAUSE HE'S GOING TO LOSE, SO IT'S SAFE TO VOTE FOR HIM.

    Whatta loser.  Cute as the dickens, but a fucking freak.

    I wish I knew how to put this quote in a little gray box, but this is off her site.

    I am not voting for John Kerry.

    I just thought that I needed to get that out of the way before I continued with my regularly scheduled blogging.  I'm not. I can't.  I spent a really long time thinking about this, and I just cannot vote for a pro-abortion president.  There is no way I could help put someone in the White House who sanctions the killing of innocent babies. I just thought I would get that out in the open right now. As I also cannot vote for "President" Bush, who sanctions the killing of innocent Iraqis, I suppose this means I will have to be true to my anarchist heart and not vote for the president at all. That, or vote for Nader, who, though he is pro-abortion as well, has a snowball's chance in hell of ever getting elected so it wouldn't matter. And I like most of the rest of his views, which is not something I can say about Kerry.

  •  This is not right, not for this site (3.25)
    Wow, I am disappointed that this kind of thing was posted here on this 'respectable' blog, by Kos himself no less. Especially alarming is this statement: "If this is a hoax, and it very well could be, it's a pretty good one." How about we stick to dealing in facts 3 weeks from the most important election of our life?
    •  correction (none)
      EDIT: oops, obviously we're not 3 weeks away from the election. But you get my point! I had registered to vote Friday here in California and still had our October 18th reg deadline in mind, sorry!
    •  From the official (none)
      Alan Keyes for Senate site:

      CHICAGO -- Democratic U.S. Senate candidate Barack Obama said Friday that his Christian beliefs dictate that marriage should be between a man and a woman, although he supports civil unions that give legal rights to gay and lesbian couples.

      Republican candidate Alan Keyes accused Obama of trying to have it both ways on the issue.

      "I think what we are seeing on this issue is deceit," said Keyes, who has made his opposition to gay marriage a cornerstone of his campaign. "He is deceiving the voters."

      (emphasis mine)

  •  It isn't outing (3.60)
    Given this woman has posted on-line to a Keyes forum with links to the page in question which openly talks about her sexuality, given she is a campaign worker, and given that her father makes the sexual orientation of other politicians' children a public issue, this is pointing out an obvious issue in how Alan Keyes lives his life in comparison to others he judges and makes public policy about.  
  •  get this shit out of here (3.71)
    C'mon. First we have this cogent bit of criticism about how blogs are starting to sell out to the frivolous bullshit. I want to think that he's wrong, but now this? It almost seems you're trying to prove his point for him.

    The revolution will not be commodified

    by Ozymandias on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:44:48 PM PDT

  •  She's a kid, for crying out loud. (4.00)
    Seriously.  Anyone bother reading her profile?  She's nineteen years old.  There's no reason to drag a nineteen-year-old's personal life into the spotlight to cry hypocrisy at an already-doomed nutjob.  
  •  I say, Hooray! (2.57)
    Anything that can draws yet another reexamination of the laughable dysfunction that is the Illinois Republican Party is another step towards kicking Denny "fat bastard" Hastert to the curb.
    •  It's got nothing to do (none)
      with Denny Hastert. Go give money to his opponent or attack him directly instead of exploiting the private life of a regular kid for crass political benefit.
      •  If the kid makes not secret of, (none)
        and makes specific admission of, being "homosexual," that fact is no longer "private".

        This is the relevant question: why is admitted homosexual Maya supporting an anti-homosexual candidate?

        Examining the character of a person who happens to be homosexual is not an off-limits sacred cow.  All the demagogery on the issue notwithstanding.

        And I doubt that those who defend the "privacy" of homosexuals in this case would do the same with the head of a major RNC political arm who is both homosexual and, as one not running for office, has a private life not to be "outted".  Does he support the Republican agenda?  Yes.  Is the Republican agenda anti-homosexual?  Yes.  

        Then is it okay to "out" him as homosexual in order to illustrate his hypocrisy?  

        Is Maya -- unlike the above -- openly heterosexual?  It would seem so.  So there is no "outting" involved.  Is she supporting the Republican agenda?  Yes.  So why is she exempt from scrutiny and question also?

        A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on -- Mark Twain

        by jnagarya2 on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 09:36:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Just (none)
      How in the name of Dan Rostenkowski is this "dysfunction" going to put Dennis Hastert out of office?  

      We need a better president.

      by GOTV on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:51:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Since when (4.00)
    Are we needing to stoop to every bit of supposed scandal that lands in our laps?  I'm sory, but for what possible purpose do we need to show this photo?  So that Obama wins by 37% of the vote rather than 36.5%?

    Let's show a little discretion.

    We need a better president.

    by GOTV on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:48:03 PM PDT

  •  well.. (none)
    I'll keep some positive energy flowing. even if this is a bit excessive.

    I think she's cute.

    "Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right" - Carl Schurz

    by RBH on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:48:58 PM PDT

  •  Playing nice? (4.00)
    Alan Keyes quotes on Gays:

    "Hitler and his supporters were Satanists and homosexuals. That's just a true statement." He added that, "the notion that is involved in homosexuality, the unbridled sort of satisfaction of human passions" leads to "`totalitarianism,' `Nazism,' and `communism.'"

    "It's about time we all faced up to the truth. If we accept the radical homosexual agenda, be it in the military or in marriage or in other areas of our lives, we are utterly destroying the concept of family. We must oppose it in the military. We must oppose it in marriage. We must oppose it if the fundamental institution of our civilization is to survive. Those unwilling to face that fact and playing games with this issue are doing so irresponsibly at the price of America's moral foundations."

    KEYES: "Well, let me finish. It's about the survival of our civilization. If we retreat from society's respect for the natural marriage institution, that represents a fundamental breach of the social contract, and it will lead to the dissolution of our civil society. We are playing with the most fundamental kind of fire here, and it's the kind of fire that transcends politics and leads to the destruction of civilizations. And that's where we're headed, if we don't deal with this effectively."

    "It is wrong to treat sexual orientation like race, in terms of civil rights protections, Keyes said. "Race is a condition that is beyond the individual's control, while sexual orientation involves behavior. If we equate sexual orientation and race, we are saying that sexual behavior is beyond the individual's control and moral will. We cannot embrace such an understanding of civil rights without denying the human moral capacity, and with it the fitness of human beings for life in a free society."

    •  does it occur to you (none)
      ...that it might be more harmful to post this information precisely because her father is a homophobic jerk? Her parents seem at least somewhat aware of her sexuality, but who knows if they know about her current relationship, this website, etc.
      •  Reply (4.00)
        This information is PUBLIC, her website is PUBLIC. Also, if they are (maybe) aware of her sexuality, maybe it's time for them to stop running away from it and stop pretending it doesn't exist. Stop with the imflammatory comments about gays, because for Christ's sakes his daughter is one. What's more important to Keyes? His daughter or his political career? Maybe this revelation (my opinion is that he knows full well of his daughter's sexuality, he's just neglected to state it in public, because it'll make him look like a total hypocrite)will awaken him and maybe change his views on gays, when his own daughter is one.

        I've seen it happen. My uncle use to say mean things about gays, then one day his son just went forward and told him he was gay. He didn't talk to him for a long time. Then one day...my uncle goes to his son's house to say "I'm sorry" and breaks down and cries in front of his son.

        If this doesn't awaken Keyes, then you know he sold his daughter out for his political career. (Or he probably already sold her out.)

  •  Poor taste seems to run in the family (none)
    I could care less about whether she's a lesbian, but that wallpaper and incredibly awful website design... unforgivable!

    Curiosity is, in great and generous minds, the first passion and the last.

    by northof45 on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:51:26 PM PDT

  •  Next up on Kos.. Is Bush's Dog Gay? (2.20)
    Does Cheney's nephew wet his bed?

    Just how smelly ARE Bush's children?

    Stay tuned!

    "The identity of the loser is perfectly clear. It is the Nation's confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian of the rule of law." Bush v. Gore

    by DeanorBust on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:52:14 PM PDT

  •  Interesting reactions (3.75)
    It's interesting to me that many people have voiced their displeasure - not because I disagree with them, but because I doubt the conservative equivalents would share that opinion.

    I'm also curious as to the source of posters' displeasure about the story:  is it the story itself or is it that kos himself posted it?  

    Perhaps kos needs an alias so he can post the stories of questionable test on the side in the diary and see if they get recommeded.  It's all about plausable deniability!

    Those who stand for nothing fall for anything - Alexander Hamilton

    by patagonia on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:52:19 PM PDT

    •  I'll give you the reasons (4.00)
      for my negative reaction:

      1. kos posted it, and its on the front page, which lends the story an air of official approval by the community and the site. and, as you see by the reaction of many users, many do not approve of stories such as this one - stories involving teenage family members of a candidate. especially when...

      2. the candidate himself is a joke, and we're better off laughing about him. as i said above, obama's up by 40 points. politically, this can't help him. it can only hurt him. and finally,

      3. this site is getting more and more attention every day from the NYT as well as other outlets, why put up a needlessly controversial and distasteful post when the risks outweigh the benefits.

      tell me what political (or other) benefit could this story gaining more attention - and being attached to dKos - possibly have.

      "George Bush has no strategy for Iraq.  I do." - John Kerry, 9/20/04

      by thirdparty on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:59:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  asdf (none)
        tell me what political (or other) benefit could this story gaining more attention - and being attached to dKos - possibly have.

        I'm not defending the story; I'm genuinely curious about people who had negative reactions to the story.

        Those who stand for nothing fall for anything - Alexander Hamilton

        by patagonia on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:02:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  asdf (none)
      test=taste

      Those who stand for nothing fall for anything - Alexander Hamilton

      by patagonia on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:00:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  this seems like a hoax... (none)
    it's just too bizarre that Alan Keyes' daughter is a wingnutty, rainbow tee shirt-wearing, anti-abortion lesbian who is voting for Nader and who accidentally left her "private" web page, complete with girl on girl action photos, open to hackers on Yahoo.

    That said, if it is true I really don't see why it is so out of bounds for kos to post this. She is an adult woman who posted these pictures on the internet for many people to see. Based on the writing on her blog, she doesn't appear to be hiding either her sexuality or her bizarre political views from anyone.

    And there's nothing shameful about a picture of two women kissing and this "Maya" is clearly not ashamed or keeping it in the closet.

    "The military don't start wars. Politicians start wars." - William Westmoreland Jr

    by pacific city on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:52:22 PM PDT

  •  Cut The Pollyanna Crap (3.75)
    If Maya Keyes put the photo on the blog, then she wanted it seen. There is no victim here, nobody is being "outed".
  •  Poor thing. (3.50)
    Poor little mixed up baby dyke. How awful to have a freak for a father. I certainly hope she turns out okay.

    The shocking thing that I saw was that her parents were threatening not to pay for her college because she was an "evil dyke."

    How awful. What a sordid little trip this is.

    California Uber Alles

    by joeesha on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:54:45 PM PDT

  •  I am very uncomfortable with this (3.00)
    I don't know if this is real or not. If its a hoax, a false story like this definitely shouldn't be posted.

    But if its real, I also don't think it should be posted. I think that a queer daughter of this man is going to have enough problems in her life without being publically outed on a political website.  Its one thing to out an anti-gay politician who has chosen public life, its another thing to out the daughter of someone who has had absolutely no choice about her father's positions. Unlike Mary Cheney she has not made public statements about herself. If this is really and truly Keyes daughter (and we still don't know that), than I feel for her deeply and think that she must be struggling with lots of issues around self-esteem and self-acceptance.  

      Her personal position on abortion does not mean she gives up all rights to privacy. I'm pro-choice and I respect privacy.

     

  •  Not outing. (3.71)
    1.  She's gay and proud of it, at least among friends.

    2.  She's outed herself by posting as much on a public blog, as has her girlfriend.

    3.  She's deferring acceptance to Brown to work on the campaign of her father...

    4.  ...who got in a world of shit calling Mary Cheney a selfish hedonist.

    If it's OK to wonder why Mary Cheney's actively working for BC'04, it's certainly OK to ask Maya Keyes WTF she's thinking here.

    My only reservation is that Maya Keyes is 19 and both her and her girlfriend appear somewhat emotionally unstable (see the cutting pics on her girlfriend's site?).  Public controversy and family retribution can lead to serious mental health consequences.  I'd hate to see either or both suffer from this.

    But fuck, I know all this because they post it all on a freaking Xanga blog.  I know waaaay to much about both of them after fifteen minutes of cursory reading.  WTF are they thinking?

    It's a scream for help, I think.  And they deserve the attention and the help equally.

    •  if all that's true (none)
      then i think the reason so many people here are outraged, is that kos didn't bother to make his post tell the whole story. this is the first i ever heard of keyes's daughter. shouldn't kos's post say, "here is maya keyes, who works for her father's campaign and espouses anti-gay positions... etc... with all the great backup research we're used to seeing here on this blog. without it, it looks like he's trying to out a young woman simply to hurt her father. the page of her blog that is linked only talks about kerry, abortion, and bush...nothing directly supporting her father, and nothing anti-gay (unless you think anti-abortion positions are inherently anti-gay)...

      this post is so outside of the kos i've been reading for years now that it's no wonder everyone's up in arms.

      If you're going to be lonely, you might as well be beautiful.

      by vancookie on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:10:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  initial post could use some background, indeed. (none)
        ...but he's probably as flummoxed as I am reading this.  

        There's a lot of interesting material in here and in her friend's blogs that fill out the full story.  

        The only major issue that I have with Maya Keyes is that she's not only involved in the campaign but actively recruiting some of her equally gay friends to help out.  

        A little self-respect is in order here - I mean, this isn't even like volunteering for Dreier or Schrock, this is Alan Fucking Keyes here.  What's next, dropping by Jimmy Swaggart's show?

        Well, that, and the abortion bit, but I can tolerate pro-life people if they're not hypocritical about it in their own practice and don't try to lock others up who don't care their belief.  

        She's young, emotionally immature and shares her father's stunning ability to flaunt the her most bizarre self in public.  But at least she seems true to herself - save for helping Dad get the message out to Napierville that's she's a freak.

  •  pretty low (3.00)
    Digging up "dirt" on politicans kids. Some people have way too much time on their hands.

    I could care less what Keynes' daughter is doing.

    Keynes is a straw man. If the Dems best shot is to pound on lightweights like him, then the party is dead.

    big bay

  •  what is going on here, kos? (none)
    is his girl actively campaigning for her father? because if not, this post is just not okay. seriously, guilt by association is just wrong--she can't help it if she's born to this creep. but unless this is a mary cheney situation where she's benefiting personally from the bigoted positions of her father, and actively doing so, then this post is so far over the boundary for me that i might have to go find some other blog to read and join in....

    please offer more explanation than this post does....

    If you're going to be lonely, you might as well be beautiful.

    by vancookie on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:56:12 PM PDT

  •  You can't out the out (4.00)
    I don't think she's in, so she isn't being outed here.

    I did a simple Google for 'Maya "Alan Keyes"' and I found several of her posts on the Alan Keyes for Senate Yahoo! group.  Her standard tagline provides links to her blog and her blog makes it really clear that she's a lesbian.

    If she's in the closet, she's left the closet door wiiiiide open.

    •  She is what we queers call (4.00)
      OUT.

      California Uber Alles

      by joeesha on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:04:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •   her friend from the photo blogs too (none)
      Here:

      P.P.S.  I have officially added yet more people to mine and Maya's polygamous marriage (cuz, you know, once queers get married, the rest of society and it's laws will go down the tube...).  Our marriage now officially consists of the following people: me, Maya, Jax, Dex, Chris, Danny, Skittles (Jax's dog), my best friend Jeremy and his girlfriend Gen, and, the newest member, Daniel (who was Maya's original fiance )!  Anyone else wanna get in on this sweet deal?

      . . .

      Some one remind why I came back to New Jersey again...?  Ever since I got back, the only thing that I have been doing is working, sleeping, fighting with my mother, lathering, rinsing, repeating...The work/sleep routine I don't really mind so much, it's all this fighting I can't stand.  My mother and I have been getting into fight after fight and I'm just so fucking tired...One of the worst fights we've gotten into was all over this picture of me and Maya.  She freaked out.  She's all about the "dirty fucking sinful queers" thing.  Before I left, we got into yet another huge fight over the fact that she was going to out me to Maya's parents which would NOT have been a good thing.  I called her a homophobic prick.  She vehemently denies it and says she is just trying to save me from "heartache and regret" (cuz, as you can see by the pictures in my last entry, I am so fucking miserable when I am with Maya)...She claims that sometimes, you just have to bite the bullet and do what is right "in the eyes of God" even if it is not what necessarily makes you happy.  So, apparently now, God not only wants me to be utterly miserable for the rest of my life, but He wants me to live a lie.

      You know, we're all assuming that we're victimizing Maya by writing about her.  But look, she blogged about this, and put photos up on the internet.  She's clearly smart, cool, and a bit fed-up with her socially conservative dad.  This is not OUTING.  Maybe this what isn't so far from what she wants??

      Will James R. Bath reveal the secret behind George Bush's National Guard Service before it's too late?

      by pontificator on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:07:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  perhaps (none)
      Perhaps she didn't think her dad would go snooping around on the net?  It's obvious from her lover's blog that their parents don't approve.  I know, it's stupid of her to leave it out in the open, but people do stupid things sometimes.  And who knows?  Perhaps Alan Keyes doesn't use the net enough to stumble across this stuff.

      In any case, having this story on Kos could result in the media getting a hold of it.  In which case, not only is her dad guaranteed to find out, but even worse, she will be the object of media controversy.  That's not cool, regardless of how careless she might be.

  •  O.K. Kos... (none)
    bring Ashton Kuchner out, bring him out, let's see him because we better be getting punk'd.

    Abraham Lincoln was the shit!

    by Kernel on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 09:59:42 PM PDT

  •  TAKE IT DOWN NOW PLEASE (3.71)
    1. She's a kid.
    2. She's a kid.
    3. We need a big turnout in Illinois and this is the kind of thing that makes people stay home because they don't want to be a part of the process. I'm from Chicago. I know these things.
    Please Kos, I've never asked you for anything before. Please take this down.
  •  This is what (3.33)
    the Bush Administration has done to this country.

    We're so scared/angry/stressed that ...

    I want Bush & the rest as much as anyone ... but this reminds me of Rush and his crack about how Hillary was the family dog.

    I'm as tired of the hypocrisy of the right as anyone ... but this ...

    "Don't judge men's wealth or godliness by their Sunday appearance." - Benjamin Franklin

    by Madman in the marketplace on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:03:52 PM PDT

  •  How many times did you hear that... (none)
    Chelsea was a lesbian?  Or Hillary?

    The Republicans use gays as red meat for the part of their fagbashing-gayhating base.

    But it seems weird to me that so many of their leaders have gay kids... from Alan Keyes to Dick Cheney to Anita Bryant.  

    And, oddly, I can't think of Democrats other than Gephardt with gay kids.  Can it be that living in a repressive house of hate helps fuel a lifestyle that simply doesn't procreate?  Hmmm...

    •  you ever think.. (none)
      You ever think that it is because they want you to know.  It makes them seem soft or more accepting.  You know, how racist people (liberal and conservative alinke) brag about how they have a Black friend.

      And then, only God knows how they can spew that anti Gay nonsense to secure their base.  They are literally saying that their children are amoral people non deserving of love and civil rights.  That is just dispicable.

      "We must all hang together, for if we do not, we shall surely hang separately." ~ Benjamin Franklin

      by charlesdog12 on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:14:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not cool Kos : take this post down (3.20)
    NT
  •  bleh (3.60)
    Who cares?  This isn't even about Keyes himself.  Isn't it going a little far when you're smearing a politician's family members to get at him?  Nothing personal, Kos...but this sort of thing just doesn't sit well with me.

    And I don't get why someone can't be secretly lesbian and still be a wingnut on other issues.  Unless she disapproves of homosexuality in particular, that's not hypocrisy.  That's not to say I agree with her views on abortion, or other things -- I just don't see the contradiction.

    •  smearing? (none)
      OK, I'm of two minds on the Maya issue. I think it's obvious that she's out, so I'm not too worried about taking note of it; nonetheless if she were closeted I would be opposed to it.

      But smearing? Either the claim is true or someone spent at least three years creating a giant network of blogs, spanning thousands of posts, all for the purpose of making it look like Alan Keyes' daughter is a lesbian. I mean, I've seen four blogs tonight, that she links to as friends of hers, who mention her by name (her real name) and link back to her site. These blogs go back years. Who would bother for a man who in 2001 was simply a failed candidate for the Republican nomination? Not to mention that she links to her blog on her posts to the Alan Keyes For Senate Yahoo! Group. Occam's razor says it's true.

      Assuming the truth of the statement (actually irregardless of the truth), how is saying it smearing, unless one believes that it's a bad thing to be gay? It's gossip, and it's ironic, but it's not a smear, at least not coming from most of the people on this site.

      •  because (none)
        it's intended to create controversy, involves someone's personal life, and isn't really that relevant.  Admittedly it now looks to be true.  Maybe "smear" is the wrong word.  But, I can't say I like the whole invasion of privacy bit, when she's not even the candidate.

        But in any case, if it isn't a big deal, then why post about it?

        •  Given the anti-gay positons... (none)
          ...her father is a leading proponent of... it absolutely is relevant.

          Unless you think equal rights for non-heterosexuals is not a "real issue" and not "relevant".

          cheers,

          Mitch Gore

          No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

          by Lestatdelc on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 12:41:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  *shrug* (none)
          The irony makes it irresistable. And I fail to see the invasion of privacy - she has publicly posted about her sexuality (Kos was wrong; there was no hacking or discovery of 'hidden' posts involved; all we see is what she chose to leave public) as have her girlfriend and other friends of hers.

          It wouldn't be an invasion of privacy for someone to talk about the fact that I'm living in sin with my boyfriend, because I don't keep it a secret. I don't see how it's any different in this case.

  •  This is silly. (4.00)
    I keep a personal blog on another site, which I keep "protected" like this girl does.  I have my own reasons for doing that, and I certainly wouldn't expect to find my personal business slapped on the front page of a blog with hundreds of thousands of readers.  Thank goodness my dad isn't running for political office, I guess.  I find it a little creepy that people are breaking into her private entries to post all this stuff about her.  

    Yeah, her dad's a wingnut.  She seems like a fairly normal 19 year old lesbian with crazy conservative parents, and she doesn't deserve this kind of treatment.  No one gets to pick their parents.      

  •  A new low (4.00)
    What the hell do these girls have to do with Alan Keyes? I mean really. They're gay? So what.

    So Keyes is a hypocrite? No shit. Why do you think he's runniing in Illinois after bashing Hillary for running in New York.

    Maya, I for one, apologize.

    Drawing upon my fine command of language, I said nothing. -Robert Benchley

    by El Payo on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:09:07 PM PDT

  •  YES, it's her, YES, she's working for the campaign (4.00)
    ...and yes, I also have some qualms about it being here.

    The main thing being - having looked at her blog - she doesn't use her last name. Now, from posts like this

    you can see that her friends don't have that problem.

    Cat's outta the bag. Good luck to her.

    Oh - and for all of you who are freaking because she's anti-abortion - her site points out some real reasons for black people to feel uncomfortable about it. And wheras I'm as pro-choice as hell, I don't think that people who are not because of religious conviction are crazy.

    But a big F*CK Y'ALL to the posters who are dumping on her. As a radical kid of a conservative dad - you don't choose your parents, and you can still love them.

    "War Is the Health of the State" - Randolph Bourne

    by nihilix on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:10:23 PM PDT

  •  this "outing" post reeks... (3.33)
    This post is far beneath the dKos I know and love. Please take it down. It has no positive benefit, and does have the potential to hurt someone who doesn't deserve it, not to mention this community.
  •  yet ANOTHER poster (4.00)
    saying this is NOT in the spirit of dailykos or the party.  If somebody was posting pics of Obama's daughter kissing another girl, we'd be freaking out.  This is just plain lowering.  Take it down, Kos!!
  •  Calm down (4.00)
    I'm not sure what to think here...but it's very obvious from reading her web site that no one "outed" her. She already did that.

    Also, she is campaigning for her father, so who knows what he was thinking by making his disgusting, obscene remarks about DC's daughter. (see below)

    Actually, the man doesn't think, so the above is an oxymoron.

    Surreal.

    Plus, I so know I'm in the minority here, but the lectures, the pontificating, the sprints to the ricketey soap box about what should be allowed on Kos and what he's allowed to post, along with the how we're so much better than blah blah blah, all directed  at Kos are a bit much. I don't know why I would think that, but they just are. So much moral indignation. And though I understand what some are saying on why they don't like it, it's still a bit much. The overall tone and all that.

    All that aside, I can't wait for the day when it's not even called an outing, but treated as a so what?

    "......An Illinois Senate candidate is calling Vice President Dick Cheney's gay daughter a sinner. Republican Alan Keyes also described homosexuality as "selfish hedonism."

    Keyes' first comments about Mary Cheney came during an interview Monday night on Sirius OutQ, a New York-based satellite station that provides 24-hour gay and lesbian programming.

    After Keyes told the hosts that homosexuality is "selfish hedonism," he was asked whether Mary Cheney is a "selfish hedonist."

    "Of course she is," Keyes replied. "That goes by definition. Of course she is."

    On Tuesday, Keyes defended his remarks, adding that if his daughter were a lesbian, he would tell her she was committing a sin and should pray about it.

       Christine

    •  Maya Keyes is not the candidate (none)
      end of story. She is not running for office on a homophobic campaign. She is not running for office on anything. If she were, be my guest.

      This is just meanspirited ends justifying the means. And it knowingly harms someone who is not the target.

      Shrugging this off is like shrugging off "collateral damage" in a military strike.

      "The problems of today will not be solved by the same thinking that produced the problems in the first place" - Albert Einstein

      by galiel on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 11:32:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  These Republican (none)
    Jerks use our ignorance and fear of homosexuality to split us up into warring factions.
    We really aren't different. We are all human.
    I'm tired of the shrieking bullshit. As long as it's ok in some circles to demonize other people for how they are biologically wired, as long as people feel they have to hid their true feelings....arrgh! words fail me.
    This bullshit has got to stop someday. If they want to be hypocrites, I say expose them.
    We're here, a lot of us are queer-get used to it!
  •  A personal story: (none)
    Since a lot of people are angry over the "outing" of someone who is not a candidate for office, just happens to be unfortunate enough to be related to one -- I thought I'd pass on a story.  

    When I was 19, I attended NC's "Coming Out As A Community" Pride march.  This event was in Durham, over a hundred miles away from my parent's home -- I was not yet out to them.  

    My parents subscribed to the Charlotte newspaper, though, and they covered the event.  My arm showed up in one of the photographs -- I happened to be that close to a photographer and not known it.  That's not how I would have wanted my parents to find out.

    Long story short:  Coming out is a tough process for some people, but once it's done, it can't be taken back.  Assuming the blog is not a hoax1,2, Maya chose to post her thoughts and photographs to the web, and in doing so, voluntarily relinquished control over who sees it.

    I think Kos could have handled this more tastefully, but I'm not going to join people in demanding that he delete it, either.  

    1Then again, I can recreate the blog in Microsoft Word, so it's obviously a hoax!  

    2The guestbook on her blog looks off -- the entries are not sorted chronologically.  Anyone familiar enough with how xanga works to explain this?

  •  This is Beneath this Website (3.00)
    So much for being morally superior.

    government of the people, by the people, and for the people shall not perish from the earth...it's just on hiatus for a while

    by IronyAbounds on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:18:46 PM PDT

  •  If you can't stand the heat... (3.66)
    stay out of the kitchen.

    She's working on the campaign, plus she's announced this to the world herself via her weblog.  She should have forseen this coming.

    If she were a minor, it'd be a different issue... but she's an grown adult.

  •  Another vote for taking it down (none)
    Just my 2 cents...
  •  This Is Making Me Sick (3.14)
    Not the Pic.
    The whining over this picture is becoming somewhat annoying.
    We are at war people and if you want to win in November, you have to engage in a little mud slinging.
    Morality and right and wrong have no place in war, you do what you have to do to win(and survive)and you think about the consequences of your actions after everything is over with.
    Do you think the freepers were saying how immoral it was to post pics about Alexandra Kerry and her see through dress?
    Do you think the freepers worried about morality when they ran the swift boat ads?
    It's time that some of you grew a backbone and deal with reality, we have to wage unconventional warfare against these bastards and win or else we risk becoming irrelevant.

    Chance favors the prepared mind.

    by hypnyx on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:21:55 PM PDT

    •  Even if Obama didn't have a 50% margin over Keyes (none)
      in the latest polls, you'd be wrong.  The ends don't justify the means, because the ends, sooner or later, become the means.

      "Whether the British ruling class are wicked or merely stupid is one of the most difficult questions of our time." - George Orwell on the Spanish Civil War

      by Ramo on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:28:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Republicans play dirty (none)
      I agree that Republicans often tend to resort to dirty tactics when they are behind or desperate, so to counter that, we will have to respond by doing the same.
      It sad that the standards have gotten so low these days, but that's the reality.
  •  I'm gay, I'm out, (4.00)
    and I think John Kerry's and most Democrats' position on gay marriage is bullshit. I think John Kerry and others opposed to same-sex marriages are trying to make me (keep me) a second-class citizen. And yet I am still doing EVERYTHING I can to elect the man. I believe he'll make a great president, even though I disagree with him on some issues. So does that make me a hypocrite who deserves my personal life mocked on the opposing side's blogs? I would argue no.

    If you're going to be lonely, you might as well be beautiful.

    by vancookie on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:22:24 PM PDT

    •  thank you (3.50)
      as a stright white educated male who will never be discriminated against, thank you for accepting the fact that Kerry will never get elected with gay marriage front and center.

      I look forward to many gay marriage diaries on the 3rd, though I'll probably be too hung over to do anything until the 5th.

      who in the what now?

      by slapshot57 on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 11:21:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  amen to victory hangovers (none)
        i plan on writing some of those diary entries! (but then again, as my mother once said, "you don't even have a boyfriend."

        thanks, mom.

        If you're going to be lonely, you might as well be beautiful.

        by vancookie on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 11:25:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  ROTFLMAO (3.42)
    What a bunch of fucking wimps this place has attracted.Karl Rove would have this picture on the front page af the NY Post Tomorrow if this was ANY Democratic Senators or Democratict Senatorial Candidates daughter.This is politics folks and if you don't like getting dirty get out.
      Kos didn't break this story and didn't do the hacking neccesary to bust into her blog.This is information that you would have seen in a magazine or newspaper in a couple of days anyway.If you want privacy use a pen and paper and don't work for your dads campaign.

    WE LOST, GET OVER IT

    by ctkeith on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:24:19 PM PDT

    •  I don't care what Karl Rove might've done (none)
      And I don't really care if she left this out in the open.  She doesn't deserve to be the object of controversy like this.
      •  What controversy (none)
        Shes gay,She's out and seems quite proud of it.Don't you find it kind of funny all the interviews that were done with gephardts daughter didn't hurt him 1 bit.The only news here is the overreaction on this site.Don't be suprised when Keyes uses this to his advantage as much as possible and gets richer because of it.

        WE LOST, GET OVER IT

        by ctkeith on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 11:04:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  not her privacy (none)
      she seems pretty out, so it's not an invasion of her privacy i'm reacting against. the original post was petty--but worse, it was pointless. the reaction in these comments pretty clearly proves that. i would totally support a kos post that pointed out that keyes daughter is gay, has a blog, posts pictures of herself kissing girlfriends, and how awful it is that keyes is such a homophobe and how hypocritical it is that she's supporting him. but attacking the daughter--and only the daughter, without saying how involved in his campaign she is--does indeed bring us to rove's level. the problem i have with that is both political and personal: it feels a hell of a lot like gay-bashing. attacking her, without tying it to her father's campaign and her involvement in it, as the original post did, reads like ignorance at best and direct homophobia at worst. i know kos is better than that--and indeed, his update of the post is a vast improvement.

      but disagreeing with the tenor and tone of that original post does not make me a fucking wimp--no matter how much of a girlie-man i might be in reality ;)

      If you're going to be lonely, you might as well be beautiful.

      by vancookie on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 11:14:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Do you really know Kos better than that (none)
        For people here to project their set of values on this site is whats hurting it.Is offending someone here or expressing a contrary view  becoming unacceptable.If it is it's to the detriment of this site.I was proudest to be a member here when Kos said "screw Them"to the damn mercs but afraid that may have been the high point.

        WE LOST, GET OVER IT

        by ctkeith on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 11:43:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Where did the pictures originated from? (none)
    Where did people get the pictures from?
    What's the URL of the pictures?
  •  Pardon Me... (3.60)
    ....but Kos' posting of this photo underlines his strong stand for GLBT people. It is newsworthy that Alan Keyes will sell out on his daughter to get votes. Your hand-wringing, as well intentioned as it may be, is a disservice to GLBT's. Saying this topic is "seedy" or "low" is a dangerous thing to say -- it could perpetuate the idea that homosexuality is shameful (and I have no doubt that there are some closet 'phobes around here). Maya isn't ashamed, and Kos has nothing to be ashamed about.
    •  Thank you... (4.00)
      I had written previously that I felt people were going overboard in their moral outrage concerning the "news" and the picture - and then then I read even more and more and more of "KOS!!! YOU BETTER TAKE IT DOWN NOW! This site is ours!!". wah. wah. WAH. Ack.

      Again. She was NOT outed by Kos. She outed herself. And now we can't discuss the picture and talk about something that she herself put out in the public eye?

      Jesus Christus almighty.

      It's time like these that I wish I was a right wing nut insane decrepit homophobic crazed conservative loon from hell.

      They are so at peace.

      That must be how the two daughters can campaign for their repulsive calamari like fathers. It's really horrific.  

      Have some wine peeps. Please.

        Christine

  •  Where do I come down on this? (4.00)
    First of all, everyone needs to calm down about kos "outing" anyone.  Apparently, she has already outed herself.  She refers to her parents thinking of her as a dyke and she refer to herself as a dyke...  Secondly, where is the damage done?  Is it from pointing out that her father is a hypocrite who is desperate to legislate discrimination against his daughter and people like her?  Or does the damage come from pointing out that Maya is gay?  Being "outed" in and of itself is not damaging if one self-identifies as gay.  Everyone is freaking out mostly because her so-called outing SEEMS like a scandalous thing, not because it is.  What is the scandal?  That she is gay?  Or that her father is a hypocrite?  I vote for the second.  Alan Keyes, to me, is representative of a certain kind of right-wing thug, respected by the most intolerant of his party; anyone like him who would attack a group his own daughter belongs to NEEDS to be exposed as the hypocritical and vicious bigot that he is.  

    That said:  Pointing out that Alan Keyes' own daughter is gay is one thing, but publicly posting her private thoughts is another.  And yes, they were private thoughts-- if she put any kind of protection on them, whether it was effective or not, it deserved to be respected.

    Lastly, I hope that Maya, if this all turns out not to be a hoax, can understand this invasion of her privacy as something better than what it seems.  One of the many things progressives have always fought for, and as a black homosexual-- or a bi, or just someone who kissed a girl because it was nice or fun-- she hould understand, are the rights of the marginalized, and such a fight is not always pretty; is never pretty, as a matter of fact.  That's not an excuse, it's just a reminder of how much is at stake for all of us, gay, black, poor...

  •  Kos (none)
    Thank you for taking the picture down.
  •  She's awesome (4.00)
    Why can't you be a lefty anarchist and anti-abortion? I may not agree, but it's a principled position and not an indication of nuttiness (as for the rhetoric, look who her dad is!).

    I wish her the very best and while I find it moving that Kossacks reacted with such unanimous concern for her I have some optimism that she'll be okay.

  •  To anyone outraged at this "outing" (4.00)
    I suggest you take a look at her blog.  This girl is already out.

    Check out this entry, scroll about halfway down, and see the two photos of her snuggling with her "anjul" (as she apparently refers to her girlfriend).

    You can't out someone who is already advertising her own orientation on the internet.

    I think the outrage should be reserved for something more outrageous.

  •  I think it's a borderline issue (none)
    but the fact is that SHE sent out the link to her blog to the Keyes Yahoo Group. She obviously had to know people would click on the link and read her posts. I'm gay and I'm out but if I wasn't out and didn't want people to know I sure as hell wouldn't have posted it on the internet and then sent the link out to a large group of people.

    In my opinion, it's fair news, but maybe Kos should have put it in a diary instead of on the frontpage.

  •  Just a Question to the Outraged (I'm not yet)-- (4.00)
    I see there are alot of outraged posters on this thread, and I don't understand. So help me understand.

    Where any of you as angry when Shrock(sp) and Drier were "outted"?? If not, why the difference in attitude?

    As for "outting,"  if you put this kind of info on the net (private access or not), you're not under the radar- on the downLow- on the qT- HushHush- in the closet.  It reminds me of those stories of people who put up office gossip or office info on the net, and then get discovered. Or those who put up sensitive info on their "private" site and get upset when it's not kept private.  We're years beyond, "blogger beWare." It's like talking on a cordless phone, if you post something, you can't expect to keep it secure.

    •  LJ (none)
      On the contrary, as an occasional user of LiveJournal, I have had several friends make posts about their sexuality that were meant for only the people who they specified. Maybe they even make posts that only THEY can read. I don't care to read the posts myself because it's none of my business, but maybe they were meant to be as private as a diary you keep under the pillow.
    •  Answer (none)
      I'm ambivilent about Schrock and Drier.  I don't like using one's sexuality as a something with which you blackmail them, but those assholes were voting against gay rights and supporting outright bigotry.  They have a right to a private life, but they also opened themselves up to attack because of their actions in the public realm which they sought out.

      This is different.  I'm against making the lives of the children of just about any politician fair game for their parent's opponents.  What happened to Chelsea Clinton was dispicable.  Now Maya Keyes may be out, but she doesn't seem to seek the limelight, especially in ways that highlight her sexual orientation.  

      Besides, the intent of this post was clearly to out her.  We learn from the comments that she's already sortakinda out, so that deminishes the effect of the post, but it says nothing about the intent.  

  •  IANAL (none)
    Kos, if you got those files by taking advantage of a flaw in Xanga's security or protections to keep certain postings from view except for those specifically authorized by the poster, well, you may want to talk to your wise-minded lawyerly friends at TalkLeft about the legal implications.

    As disappointed as I am that you've posted this, I'd hate to see you in legal hot water.

  •  Still...this ain't right (none)
    Taking the picture down makes the post somewhat less lurid and inspires less voyeurism on the part of Kossacks and visitors, but I still want to register my disapproval.

    One of the most common reactions when children come out to unsupportive parents is to be "cut off" from the biological family of origin, especially financially. Maya indicates fear of such in her blog.

    Amping this up without her consent only makes this course of action by Mom and Pop Keyes more likely.

    Being "out" is not an all or nothing deal. Because Maya chooses to post some things in her online diary or wear clothes or other accoutrements that identify "family" does not mean she wants to be out to the world. And after the quarter of a million pages views this thing is going to get by noon tomorrow, she'll be one of the most "out" 19-year olds in America. She didn't ask for or deserve this.

    But hey, instead of speculating about Maya's preference on this, why doesn't someone e-mail and ask?

    Tuition at Brown U. ain't gonna be cheap. How about after we propel the Kos Dozen to victory, we set up a college fund for Maya Keyes. I think she might need it after tomorrow.

  •  Degree (none)
    I know people who have come out. It's not an on/off switch. There are people who come out to their gay friends before their straight friends, their college friends before their high school friends, all their friends years before they come out to their parents...I had a freshman dorm-mate who was one of the heads of the LGBT groups in my college, and we found out she was gay because another friend was looking up their website--she had not told us.

    So it is quite plausible to me that Maya Keyes would want to be out to her friends, and her family, and a few small groups on the campaign trail (that yahoo listserv appears to have all of four members), and yet not want to be out to the 100,000 readers of Kos and the entire state of Illinois and become an campaign issue in her father's Senate race when they must have a complex enough relationship as it is. She unsuccessfully tried to keep part of her weblog private, which indicates that she did NOT want the whole world to know about this.

    If this were a friend or acquaintance of yours, would you assume that because he had an obscure livejournal saying s/he was gay, it was perfectly fine for you to print it in the NY Times? I sure as hell wouldn't. And it's sure as hell not because I think there's anything shameful about being gay--it's just best to err on the side of respecting people's private lives.

    I don't suppose Kos will reconsider, so this is moot. But I think that's where most of us are coming from.

  •  the problem (none)
    with the original post, kos, is that it is an attack on maya. warranted or not, she ain't running for office. her father is. she might be a hypocrite for supporting him (though perhaps she just disagrees with him on this one issue...?), but he's the real hypocrite for taking the support of an out lesbian, especially when he's willing to rag on mary cheney for being a lesbian.

    but without any backgound info your attack on her seemed heartless--and completely distinct from any attack on keyes himself. your update to the post mentions keyes--but besides the title of the original post, you didn't mention him there. it seems shitty to rag on her in that way, when it's her father we really hate.

    but your update helps clarify--thank you for making it and for responding to the little firestorm in here.

    If you're going to be lonely, you might as well be beautiful.

    by vancookie on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:56:36 PM PDT

  •  Kos (none)
    Thanks for the update.  I still disagree with you, but now I can respect your decision to post this here.

    I like Paul Babbitt. After you read this, so will you.

    by Nonpartisan on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:58:30 PM PDT

  •  it's ridiculous (4.00)
    that kos was forced to take part of his own post down from his own site.

    The woman is clearly gay, happy, proud of it and more than willing to have most everyone in the blogosphere read all about her political views.

    She is not a child, she is 19 and she is working on her father's campaign. And for those who think that, at 19, she is "just a kid":

    --19 is old enough to be sent to Iraq to die for a war that Alan Keyes fully supports.
    --19 is old enough to be executed, another policy supported by Alan Keyes.

    If she's willing to actively support her father's views by working on his campaign, then perhaps at 19 she is old enough to be reminded of her own hypocrisy.

    "The military don't start wars. Politicians start wars." - William Westmoreland Jr

    by pacific city on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 10:59:50 PM PDT

  •  My first inclination, as a gay man, is... (4.00)
    to think that, since the evidence appears to show that this site is real and since Maya and her friends have done little if anything to hide her sexual preference, Maya has outed herself. And from the content of her site, it appears that Maya is politically and emotionally aware of herself and the context in which she has made this decison. Therefore, I can't help but conclude that she would not feel her privacy has been violated by another web site pointing to the content of her own website.

    This is not a stupid woman. She knows her father is running for the Senate. She knows people will Google him to find information upon which they base their vote. She must realize that in the course of that Googling, voters could very well want to find out about his family and she could be one of the results that come up.

    Therefore, is it fair game for Kos to have posted this story? Yes. The more important question, however, is what good is accomplished by posting this story? If the reason for posting it were to help Barack Obama win a few more points more than the 50 points he already has over Keyes, I would say it's superfluous and unnecessary. If the race were closer or if Keyes were even winning, I'm not sure that would change my mind.

    However, I don't think this has to do with one particular race. This has to do with Keyes and  the virulent, dangerous, and hurtful strain of Wingnuttery he embodies. The comment Keyes made about homosexuals being "selfish hedonists" and then including another political figure's daughter  -- Mary Cheney -- in this group spoke volumes about the destructive nature of this man and all his thinking. Most people can see that this man is out of his mind. But many, who claim to support family values, agree with him. I can't help but think that, by showing that this man would speak with such contempt about his own daughter,what little credibility may still exist in the minds of some could be further deteriorated. Does Alan Keyes believe his daughter is a selfish hedonist? Will he say out loud that he has raised someone detrimental to the common good of society?

    This is not about one political race. This is about challenging a hateful and destructive ideology.

    "Strength and wisdom are not opposing values" ~ The Big Dawg

    by John Campanelli on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 11:00:30 PM PDT

    •  Helping IL down ballot candidates (none)
      Although you might consider it a stretch as a reason for attacking Keyes, another reason to attack Keyes is to demoralize the Republican base in IL not to vote come November.
      One reason given by a Illinois House Republican leader for recruiting Keyes to Illinois was to maximize the turnout of religiously conservative voters who live in downstate (The area outside of Chicago and its suburbs).
      By sort of outing his daughter, perhaps these voters might not show up to vote because they now know that his daughter is a lesbian.
      In Illinois, we also got a competitive Congressional race in IL-8, and Melissa Bean who is running against ultra-conservative Phil Crane needs all the help she needs to defeat Crane.
      The more Republicans stay home in IL-8, the better the chance of Melissa Bean winning because the district leans somewhat Republican.
      The same thing can be said of Christine Cegelis (IL-6, the district I live) who is running against Henry Hyde and Tari Renner (IL-11) who is running against Jerry Weller (These two districts are even more Republican.).
      They need all help they can get.
      Fewer Republicans showing up to vote is better for them.
  •  I'd still ditch this (none)
    Even if it was ethically kosher, and I think it's a little iffy, let's face it - Keyes really doesn't need further embarassment. He's done. Just let him get pummeled in November and move on.
  •  Not the first time Maya Keyes has been around (none)
    rumors

    http://www.renewamerica.us/archives/speeches/95_09_11cc.htm

    Alan Keyes: Thank you . . . Thank you . . . Thank you very much . . . Before I get started, I want to take a second to introduce you to my family here, my mainstays and support. And I often tell people that once I've introduced them, I really could go off and save you all the trouble of listening to my speech, because you know what it's all about then. My wife Jocelyn, my eldest, Francis--now I have to set the record straight here on national TV, this is my daughter Maya. I have heard rumors to the effect that she got cold-cocked by Ross Perot at the United We Stand America convention, and usually the barometer of truth from which this comes is quite accurate, and I have great respect for it. It looked like that on TV, but did it really happen, Maya?

    Maya: No.

    Keyes: No. So, regardless, we've got to be truthful, right? So she was not cold-cocked by Ross Perot, even though our booth was thrown out of the convention--but that's a different story.

    --

    glad we've gotten that cleared up

    "Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right" - Carl Schurz

    by RBH on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 11:07:17 PM PDT

  •  priorities?? (none)
    There's a war going on in Iraq. Troops are dying. Civilians are being murdered but somehow this topic generates the most interest tonite? There is something very, very wrong about that.

    Solve the energy crisis - unplug Dick Cheney.

    by catnip on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 11:11:34 PM PDT

  •  Ends vs Means (3.33)
    This just seals the deal. The real struggle is not between the "Left" and the "Right", between "conservatives" and so-called "progressives", the real struggle is between those who believe that the ends justify the means, and between those who don't.

    Recently, it was pretty clear that the ends-driven people dominated the Right, and that the zealots on the Right would do anyting to win.

    Recently, it seemed that the most striking difference between us was that the Right took its cues from Machiavelli while we were more likely to be inspired by Martin Luther King.

    I guess we deserve to be knocked down a peg or too, thanks to one of our own descending to the level of freeperland.

    "But Ma, they did it first! Everybody does it!" as many here seek to defend this, is a childish argument, not the argument of mature, responsible adults.

    Some of us think that progressivism, liberalism, Enlightenment values are all about just means being an ends unto themselves.

    Some of us believe that doing the right thing is what makes us better, what makes us worthy of Americans' votes, what makes us worthy to govern.

    Not because the other side happens to have the "wrong" mascot, but because the other side, in this election, stands for the ends triumphing over the means.

    Some of us also believe that the more we become like them, the less likely we are to win.

    When dirty tricks like this happen, we're supposed  to be delighted, because they are on "our side".

    And when dirty tricks like this happen to us, we are supposed to be horrified at the lack of morality and ethical standards.

    Such hypocrisy.

    It is one thing to out a homophobic politician. To target his family is reprehensible. It is a tactic that would make Lee Atwater and Karl Rove proud. And the pain it causes does not deserve to be shrugged off blithely as just a "casualty of war". That is the Bush game, not ours.

    At long last, have you no shame?

    "The problems of today will not be solved by the same thinking that produced the problems in the first place" - Albert Einstein

    by galiel on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 11:24:45 PM PDT

    •  Un. Beeeee. Leeeeve-A-Bull. (3.66)
      Honestly, are you for real? Your (and I'm stealing someone's else word here) Faux (his) naueasting (mine) grandstanding is beyond the pale. BlowHard much?

      "One of our own is is descending to the level of freeperland"
      "Some of us think that progressivism, liberalism, Enlightenment values are all about just means being an ends unto themselves."
      "Some of us believe that doing the right thing is what makes us better, what makes us worthy of Americans' votes, what makes us worthy to govern."
      "Such hypocrisy."
      "At long last, have you no shame?"

      To compare Kos to McCarthyism...jesus christus allmighty, have you no shame?

      Did you need to feel good about yourself or something because it was the most insane thing I read on here all night.

      Sorry for the tone of this post, but I'm floored by the grandstanding here.

      Christine

      •  Was there a substantial rebuttal (none)
        somewhere in your ad hominems, or do you have no actual disagreement with the substance of my post?

        "The problems of today will not be solved by the same thinking that produced the problems in the first place" - Albert Einstein

        by galiel on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 05:19:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  SHE WAS NOT OUTED BY KOS!! (none)
          There was nothing in your post that was substantive.  You simply threw around a bunch of outrage without making any serious points about what is going on here.

          Kos' post is fundamentally not about Keyes' daughter it is about what a horrible person he is for being a hateful bigot towards people like his publicly gay daughter.  She was already out, she posted her sexual preference and pictures on the internet, for cripes' sake.  The picture of her with her girlfriend is at the Dupont Circle fountain and the nighttime picture of them kissing is almost certainly from the HRC organized march through Dupont Circle to oppose the FMA (that's where those "you're fired" stickers were being handed out, the streets were plastered with hundreds afterwards).  It's not like someone secretly took the pictures and put them on the internet out of spite, SHE POSTED THEM, and good for her.

          She's out, therefore the story is not about her, it is about her hateful father who would discriminate against his own daughter.  As a parent, I happen to think that says something profound about the character of a person so I think it is news.  Feel free to disagree, feel free to get outraged about talking about "personal" issues in a Senate campaign but spare us the moral outrage about posting publicly available information (if you still think it's private info, you've ignored at least 50 posts above) to show what a mean-spirited jerk Alan Keyes is.

          •  Let's look at the actual facts (none)
            "the story is not about her"

            Hence kos started his post with the following statement:

            "Chillinois has compelling evidence that Maya Keyes, our good gay-hating Republican in Illinois, is openly gay."

            Hence the very next paragraph, which reads

            "The evidence comes from Maya's very public blog (first discovered by Modern Vertebrate). Xanga apparently allows parts of the site to be "protected" from those not on a special list, but Xanga has poor technology, as some of that protected content can be easily found. For example, here's the post where she hides parts of her site."

            Not to mention that there is a world of difference between a picture posted on someone's private diary and putting it on the cover of dailykos.

            But the facts never get in the way of a good argument around here :-)

            "The problems of today will not be solved by the same thinking that produced the problems in the first place" - Albert Einstein

            by galiel on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 08:43:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Good god! (none)
              Facts?  You're kidding, right?  This is priceless:

              "Not to mention that there is a world of difference between a picture posted on someone's private diary and putting it on the cover of dailykos."

              Yes there is a world of difference.  What Ms. Keyes did was worlds away from a private diary.  It was on the internet.  Even if she later decided to slap some kind of security on her public blog, and it isn't even clear she actually did that, she publicly and proudly proclaimed her preference on the internet.  

              She was "out."  I frankly thought it was obvious that Kos had a typo in the first sentence and he was referring to her father as the "good gay hating republican" but it doesn't really matter.  Nothing has been done to Ms. Keyes.  She is merely listed as being gay.  Everyone knows and she is not ashamed of it.  It is, however, revealing about her father.  

              I'm not gay so I can't speak to it directly, but it seems clear from a number of the above posts that many gay people here feel pretty offended at the idea that it is somehow vicious or mean to merely mention that someone is gay (again, as disctinct from "outing," which is not what happened here).  I just find the moralizing, and particularly the implication that this is somehow like McCarthite smears a bit much to take.

              •  Xanga is not dailykos. (none)
                1) Most people consider their online blogs to be more like diaries than news sites. Most of the people checking the diary out are friends or people who are part of a particular community of interest.

                The fact that we use the term "blog" to describe both a Xanga personal diary and dailykos does not mean they are the same thing.

                It is doubtful that the typical homophobic strightlaced self-righteous older man is hip to the fact that lesbians have blogs on dailyjournal. We don't know that for a fact, but we do know that kos took it upon himself to make SURE the entire world new---not about Alan Keyes, of which an abundance has been written, but about his daughter. And this is not even a close race where the Machiavellians could trot out ends justifying means. This is not only gratuitous, it will probably have a backlash effect.

                2) Being gay or not has nothing to do about it. I am not gay, but neither I nor most of the gay posters here spent time arguing about the merits of merely posting someone's sexual preference online. The issue was the very public, kos-front-page exploitation of a young woman who has done nothing wrong and is not running for office. Your post implies that you believe that everyone only acts out of their own self-interest.

                Implicit in your comments and others is also the idea that people who you disagree with or even find reprehensible in their views are somehow less deserving of respect and dignity than "good" people.

                Incidentally, have you actually gone and looked at the blog? Her identity as Maya Keyes is nowhere trumpeted or proclaimed. It was revealed, as kos explicitly says, as the result of poor technology poorly hiding pages that she made private. So crucify the 19-year-old kid for not being technologically-savvy enough to know that malicious people would violate her privacy and use information she thought was hidden to expose her diary to the world. Sheesh.

                The true test of a liberal is their willingness to stand up for the rights of people they don't identify with, don't share interests with, and can't stand.

                "The problems of today will not be solved by the same thinking that produced the problems in the first place" - Albert Einstein

                by galiel on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 09:59:22 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ok, this really is getting to be too much (none)
                  I am now inclined to believe your misreading of both my comments and Kos' post must be intentional.  Let's be clear on a couple points:

                  1. A "personal diary" is well, personal.  You know, a book hidden under your bed, a file on your computer even.  It is most certainly not a publicly accessible posting on the internet that is regularly accessed by a number of people and the link to which you include in your signature.

                  2. The only reason for the whole public/private line of inquiry is to show that Ms. Keyes is not in the closet.  Seeing as how she is not in the closet she cannot be "outed."  Thus, the mere mention of her name and the fact that she is gay is not harmful to her.  She obviously doesn't care that people know she is gay.  Therefore it is not "exploitation," nor has she been "crucified" (or any of the other absurdly overheated phrases you have used) by pointing out that her father's hatefull and exploitive bigotry extends to his own family (or he's a laughable hypocrite).

                  I've implied nothing like what you allege; I made no arguments about the ends justifying the means and I've given no indication that I think it is okay to attack the innocent.  She's openly and proudly gay.  Good for her.  Nothing has changed in this regard since this fact has been mentioned on Kos.  Things may be harder on her father, but her life is unchanged.  She was the openly gay daughter of a bigot last week and she still is.

                  P.S. This: "The true test of a liberal is their willingness to stand up for the rights of people they don't identify with, don't share interests with, and can't stand."  Is just sad.  I sincerely hope you re-read this and see how ironic it is for you employ this quote in this context.

                  •  Logically challenged (none)
                    1. I am the one that used the term "personal diary", specifically "posted on someone's private diary", so suggesting that I am misreading, let alone intentionally misreading your post is simply false.

                    The fact that you are ignorant that the vast majority of so-called "blogs" are personal diaries like the one my younger daughter has (don't bother, I carefully instructed her on keeping all personally identifying information off the site, including even her registration, because of people with your kind of ethics). Far outnumbering the dailykos's of the world.

                    In fact, most of them are created by young women. In fact, most of them view their diaries as extremely private and personal, even while they reveal intimate details about themselves. That is one of the wonderful paradoxes about this people-empowering tool of the Net.

                    2.) The link between her identity and the Xanga blog was quite explicitly explained by kos as being the result of someone looking at information that was supposed to be hidden and private. Without it, there would be no link, as I have read through the blog (have you?) and there is NOTHING in there that I saw connecting the young woman whose blog that is with Alan Keyes.

                    The issue is not, and has never been, whether or not Maya Keyes chooses to be out. The issue is that her personal writings have been plastered all over the Web, along with her picture, not because she is gay, not because she is or isn't out, but because of her irredeemable sin: she is the daughter of a homophobe.

                    Well, shame on her. I guess the fact that she has taken much of this stuff down and shut off her site is not an indication that this upset her in any way---on the contrary, she is just focusing her efforts on preparing medals for you and all the other self-righteous people who decided for her how she does or doesn't have a right to conduct her life--again, not because of anything she is doing, but because of what her father is doing.

                    Incidentally, unless Keyes says what she is is ok, and that what applies to others doesn't apply to his family, I fail to see where he is "hypocritical". Cheney is hypocritical, tempering his otherwise ruthless social conservatism with a sudden speck of "it's up to the states" evasion on this issue.

                    On the contrary, much as we both abhor Keyes' position, he has said nothing to indicate that he applies a double standard here. On the contrary, his statements suggest that he is every bit the bastard toward her as toward anyone else.

                    "The problems of today will not be solved by the same thinking that produced the problems in the first place" - Albert Einstein

                    by galiel on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 11:31:30 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Enough (none)
                      I'll stop.  It is obviously pointless to engage you in debate as your only devices are ad hominem attack and willful obtuseness.  I never once came even vaguely close to asserting it was okay to attack Ms. Keyes.  I simply stated it could not be an attack of any type to "out" someone who already was.  No rational person could possibly have taken from my comments anything like what you have.  

                      This is the second post where you have made personal assertions about my "ethics."  It goes without saying you know nothing about me, but I submit your self-satisfied grandstanding here has said a great deal about you.  If you think this marks you as somehow either "liberal" or tolerant then I suggest you read a little more about the concepts.

                      •  LOL (none)
                        "your only devies are ad hominems" followed by an ad hominem "and willfil obtuseness.

                        Then, you wrap it all up with "self-satisfied grandstanding".

                        Your self-referential irony is laudible, dude.

                        "The problems of today will not be solved by the same thinking that produced the problems in the first place" - Albert Einstein

                        by galiel on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 04:41:18 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  The idiot you are engaing in (none)
                        Also lamely tried to push his/hers bullshit "you have no morals" line of crap on me up-thread because I was calling the faux outrage and indignation exhibited by numerous people, but the poster you are addressing in particular, to be full tilt bullshit.

                        And the irony that this clown tried to push the "you are projecting onto me" line of crap is stunning hypocrisy, within this persons very own posts.

                        This person is a clown and is clowning around this thread moralizing and heaping fradulent moral admonisments and fake outrage high and low.

                        cheers,

                        Mitch Gore

                        No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

                        by Lestatdelc on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 06:53:57 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Yeah, my bad (none)
                          for trying to deal with this person on a substantive level.  I'm sure he/she lulls themself to sleep at night with thoughts of how morally superior they are but it sure doesn't do much good for anyone else.  Oh well, one more commenter who can just be skipped over in the future.
  •  Only use Dirt when Needed (none)
    I'm all for fighting as dirty as necessary to win, but I don't really see the point of using this story in a battle that cannot be lost. There must surely be better ways of expending energy on fights that still need winning like Kerry versus Bush.  
  •  Kos (none)
    you should have used better judgement.

    She's just a 19 year old kid for Christsakes.

    GWB will pry my 19 year old son from my cold dead fingers.

    by Momagainstthedraft on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 11:30:44 PM PDT

    •  Oh please (none)
      She is old enough to drive, old enough to vote...

      and old enough to join th emilitary, carry an M-16 and kill people.

      She is also old enough to post about her sexuality on a publicly accessible site, and have her publicly professed sexuality used to highlight the glaring hypocrisy of her father who is running for PUBLIC OFFICE on issues, among other things, as criminalizing his daughters sexual orientation, and conflating it with the rise of Nazism.

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

      by Lestatdelc on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 12:01:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Gays cause Nazism, communism (3.66)
    " 'Hitler and his supporters were Satanists and homosexuals.  That's just a true  statement.'   He added, 'The notion that is involved in homosexuality, the  unbridled sort of satisfaction of human passions' leads to 'totalitarianism,' 'Nazism,'  and 'communism.' " -- Republican Presidential Candidate, Alan Keyes

    From People for the American Way, "Hostile Climate," 1997,  p.26.

    People bitching about the "outing" of his out daughter who posts her sexuality on a website accessible to the world when this is the views of the freak her father is who she is CAMPAIGN for...?

    Get fucking real people.

    This faux indignation about "outing" his "out" daughter is enough to make me puke in my soup.

    cheers,

    Mitch Gore

    No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

    by Lestatdelc on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 11:38:28 PM PDT

  •  The wah-ing never ends. (4.00)
    Still.
    Can't.
    Take.
    This.

    The amount of indignanty (hey, it's bush's America) people on here who just don't get it yet.

    1. Once more - Today's matra: Kos DID NOT out her.

    2. So what if the picture is there. It's a picture of two people who are kissing and could even be in love. This "take it down" krap is annoying. If it was a picture of her and a man no one would be clammering and bellowing. And if talks about her girlfriend and being gay on her own public web site, why does this so offend some of you? Uggg.  

    3. She outed herself publicly and we're discussing it. So what? Posters on this site rip Bush's wife to pieces and she's not running either. That poor tinx.

    4. AND EXCUSE Me?! The night the Bush Twins spoke at the RNC, the threads and hundreds upon hundreds of comments ripping those airheads to shreds carried over into other threads. Yesh! <GASP!> They were called "drunken bums, losers, ugly, bad apples like their Dad, ten pack a day smoking fiends from hell, lushes, ho's, tramps, stupid, idiots...". Need I go on? Oh! The glee of that night. The utter glee so many of you had taking them down.  

    5. And oh! The hypocrisy of some of you now. If I had 49438493434 hours I would look up your comments (the soap boxers from tonight yelling about how beneath us the original story and picture are)  from that night, and you better be clean kiddies. That glass trailer of yours better be sturdy.

    6. Yes -  new people who may be here because you read the New York Times Magazine spread on Kos. We are the bestest kids on the bloggyland playground. All we discuss is stats and poll numbers and we never, ever, ever, ever talk about a candidate or his fambly mean like. Oh no. We're morally superior and very kind. We are liberals you know. Not like those darn freepers.    

    I mean, will this convince you? If you read this little piece from her blog, will this convince that when you post stuff like this to a web site (and this was not protected, it's wide open for everyone to read), that it's fair game to discuss it anywhere and anytime?

    I just wish people would read things before they themselves become the judge and the jury.

    And now I'm starting to think Dick and Mary got it made compared to these two lost souls.

       Ack! Again!!  
    Christine

    "In another rather amusing anecdote, I have now had threeseparate people come up and offer me their support!
    Fiorst, at a parade in Kankakee county I was standing while my dad greeted people, and every few people would come up and ask if I was his daughter and tell me how much they loved him...
    then another guy sidled up rather discreetly and said "Um, excuse me, I don't mean to interrupt, but I'm assuming you're family?" So I glued on another smile and said "Yes, I'm his daughter..." to which he said "No, no... I mean... you're... family..."
    There was a brief moment of "We're in the middle of a bunch of republicans out away from Chicago in Illinois he can't mean - " confusion before I realized yes, he'd noticed my rainbow everything and he did mean family like that...  so I said yes and he gave me literature for his queer youth group and said he figured it must be tough on me but they were behind me and I should stop by sometime.
    Then, I was out at lunch at Chili's with my dad and his aide and our adorable gay waiter stopped me when I was coming out of the bathroom to say how much he liked my bright rainbow bracelets. He then told me he understood how hard it could be being queer in a conservative family and I should hang in there.
    Then again today in Naperville some random queer boy in passing shook my hand and told me that "Lots of us are pulling for you, be strong, be proud!"
    ////////////
    Who says political campaigns can't be fun, too?  Mancow, a radio-type-person in the Chicago area, invited my dad to the Mobster Mash....(Mancow joked, before the chaos began, that there were hoardes of angry lesbians waiting to take shots at my dad. Thankfully, dad only did target practice.)

  •  Despicable (none)
    This is by far the most despicable posting I have seen on this site..  in fact, it's the first one I've read that's made me think that ANY of the postings of this site were despicable.

    What could be the goal of a posting such as this?

    The goal appears to be to discredit and smear someone running for office because their offspring is a homosexual, and that the person running for office has expressed anti-homosexual opinions.

    Does this post achieve that goal?  I think not.  I think more mud falls on the thrower in this case.

    You are basically calling "fair game" on using sexuality and even sexuality of brethren as a weapon in a political campaign.

    Lets look at the effects of this smear on the audience.. which I'll split into "pro-gay" and the "anti-gay" groups.

    The pro-gay rights and gay accepting audience... well, I don't know what they think.. I hope they are as offended as I am.. of which I include myself in this group...

    The anti-gay people... what do they think when they  hear something like this?  The message (from you) seems to be "this guy is a queer-kid-having hypocrite," to which they say either "ahh, poor guy, he's got a gay daughter" or "damn, what's wrong with that guy.. he's got a gay kid!"

    Either way, not good for the promoting the ideas of gay acceptance within the anti-gay community..

    •  Pathetic (none)
      Please cite chapter and verse what is DISGUSTING about this thread...?

      This fake "moralizing" in this thread about people wringing their hands over "outing" her or being "mean" and "she is a just a kid" is enough to make me fucking puke.

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

      by Lestatdelc on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 12:05:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  look at mishar's post below yours (none)
        to see why it's wrong. The very last line has her wondering if she still has a college to go back to after she confronts her father on the issue of gay marriage.

        What's madness but nobility of the soul at odds with circumstance?

        by slinkerwink on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 12:09:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Still not seeing it (none)
          Mishar's post makes a point I do not wholly agree with, though at least has more merit than most of the faux "outrage" over this thread.

          I agree that mishar's take is that for the most part she does not agree with her dad, but that said yet she still goes to rallies and campaign events.

          I certainly don't envy her situation and her having a complete asshole as a father. But still nothing to that post explaining how anything here is "wrong" since she posts about her sexuality on a publicly accessible website (and more power to her).

          cheers,

          Mitch Gore

          No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

          by Lestatdelc on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 12:29:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Outing isn't the issue (none)
        and neither is the "thread" it's the original post that is wrong.

        Sexuality shouldn't be an issue.

        She outed herself, I can accept that.  She's an adult, and I can accept that too.

        The problem is everyone has hijacked this person's sexuality as a big club they want to use to beat people with.

        •  Funny (none)
          There are post after post by many here decrying that very thing (i.e. "outing") which is BS.

          And to rail against "highjacking" (comical) someone else's sexuality to "beat people with" is ludicrous given the context of why wielding the publicly acknowledged sexuality of his daughter is... her father using people's sexuality (specifically their sexual orientation) as a club to deny even his own daughter equal protection under the law, and equating it with and attributing nazism to people's sexual orientation.

          Sorry, your assertion that I and others who back using this as a way for us to "beat people" (oh poor victims) with someone's sexuality is not going to fly at all.

          If the Fright-Wing demagogues are willing to bash non-heterosexuals both political and literally at times, and actively work to deny non-heterosexuals equal rights under the law... you fucking right I will "beat people up" with someone's sexuality.

          It's called defending yourself (and others) against bigoted, social fascists and unjust laws.

          cheers,

          Mitch Gore

          No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

          by Lestatdelc on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 12:38:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Poor Maya (none)
    She just seems so intelligent and alive. Must be hell for her to have to coexist with her right-wing Dad.. especially because he's such a public figure.

    I found this entry on her blog from May:

    Speaking of my dad, anyway, my aunt got word from her sister-in-law (who lives in Boston) that he has been up in Massachusetts all the time in the front of the anti-gay-marriage bloc.  My aunt said something about him being the "voice of America" re: gay rights and he has been one of gay marriage's most outspoken critics, campaigning round-the-clock to make sure that people like yours truly will never be able to enjoy the same benefits he already has.

    Sometimes I cannot believe I am related to this man.

    Haha though I'm sure he feels the same way about me.

    Anyway, I predict mucho tension when I get back over this issue.  I will just not bring it up until I leave for college and hopefully that way I'll still have a college to leave to.

  •  I don't see what the problem is (3.50)
    If you want to keep something about yourself private, don't post it on a LiveJournal that anyone can read. Seems fairly straightforward to me.

    And it's not like Kos was the first one to break the story, either.

  •  The main reason... (none)
    ...I'd say that this post was uncalled for is what Maya herself said in her blog.  She protected parts of it because she wanted to stay out of the public eye.  This sort of debate is the last thing she wanted.

    She's obviously having trouble with her own identity and her relationship with her parents.  There are even remarks that suggest that her parents are may be unhappy with her, and are possibly cutting off her college tuition or other ties because of her lifestyle.  So this is exactly what she didn't want to happen - the press jump on this as a story the way that they've jumped on Mary Cheney, and then further drive a wedge between her and her parents.

    By publicizing this information, we could potentially be forever ruining this family and more importantly this girl's life.  Whether or not you approve of the way their family works, I'm not about to step out and completely destroy things for political reasons.  At least when Cheney gets pestered, we know that him and his daughter have an amicable relationship.  For all we know, that could not be the case here, and a public battle about his daughter's sexuality could force the worst to happen.

    Besides, Keyes is going to be crushed anyway, and this post doesn't seem like political tactics as much as it seems like gloating over the irony of the situation without consideration for anyone else.  I can hear Keyes-haters (by that I mean everyone here) laughing as they read this, but there are other ways to get laughs that don't result in the kind of horror that could happen here.

  •  Clarification (none)
    to clarify..

    the "weapon" seems to be "anti-gay sentiment" and "homophobia"..

    you are clearly using homophobia as a weapon in this case.. you are also using hypocrisy, but the main theme is definitely anti-gay.

    I would think if you wanted equality for all, you wouldn't stoop to this level of mudslinging because it counteracts any equality minded outcome.  You are reinforcing this idea that "gay is bad."   I know the girl is out, and she put up a website, public records, blah blah.. I don't care.

    She wouldn't be on attaining the notoriety unless someone wanted to USE HER is the political arena, and that is what is wrong.

    It's practically exploiting HER sexuality to use as a weapon against her father!  Goodness gracious, can't you see how that's wrong?

    •  Oh please (none)
      You are damn right I want to use her PUBLICLY expressed sexuality to fight back against the bigoted scum who use sexual orientation as a weapon to deny EQAUL RIGHTS to non-heterosexuals under the law.

      Get a fucking grip on reality here for a second.

      Her father wants to codify DISCRIMINATION based on sexuality into the fucking core document of our body of law... so who her is using the "weapon" of sexuality and for what?

      You are damn right I am using it, to secure EQAUL RIGHTS for everyone regardless of their sexual orientation, by fighting back at those who use sexual orientation as a weapon to deny people equal rights based on sexuality.

      You seem to think that nobody's sexuality should be at issue when it IS a fucking issue, because the Fright-WingTM want to make sexual minorities second class people and deny equal rights under the law to sexual minorities.

      Sorry, that is just absurd.

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

      by Lestatdelc on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 12:49:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  more from her blog (none)
    Running a GLBT youth center would be amazing, though, and one day we shall. This morning my anjul and I were planning what it would be like.  Jax and his fiance Dex will head our program for the conversion of straight kids to homosexuality.  "Reparative therapy", yes?  We figure they'll be good for it because Dex claimed hetero stat until falling in love with Jax, so he can coach them on the finer points of making the switch; and Jax can teach gay kids the proper methods of converting breeders.  Shiva will head up our general corruption unit - teach them how to be violent and how to properly break laws without getting caught and just generally be properly evil delinquints.  Shiva's wonderful boyfriend Jeffie (have any of you been blind enough not to notice that my story in progress is completely and unashamedly stolen from their current real-life situation?) will teach them all about the joys of drug use, and Danny shall teach Promiscuity 101; with a subsection of prostutution classes 101.  Bria and I will teach how to be rabid feminist man-hating dykes; her friend Ariel will teach Riot Grrrl 101 with a sub-class, Bounce-and-Flap 101.  Jax will double as our front man; for the purposes of public appearances, since he is so holy; we can hide behind his sanctity while being a hotbed of evil.  I think also Jerry would be good for helping him in furthering our legit appearance also.  We've got it all planned out, see?  Now we just need someone to head up our classes on teaching parents how to raise gay children and we'll be all set  Can you think of anything we are missing in our efforts to corrupt and queerize the youth of the nation?)
    •  Another bit of her blog --- from 2001 (none)
      Okok time for another of my pointless rants... this one is about my little brother being brainwashed... So today in the mail we got some crap for some random organization somewhere... hold on... I'll try to find it so I can say exactly who it was from... ok it was "Family Concerns, Inc." in Georgia. My mom told me to open it cuz it looked like more spammy crap so I was looking through all these letters about different things that my parents, as my protectors blah blah... should be worried about. And there was this one neon yellow sheet that said ALERT in huge bold underlined letters and it was warning us about those evil homosexuals and how they were preying on children and their agenda was designed to corrupt us all and stuff... so after I go through all the stuff in the envelope my mom said to throw it away, and my little brother was like, no keep it we should send them money and my mom said she didn't have time for the hundred of spammy letters we get all the time from all these conservative groups (or something to that effect) and my little brother said "But don't you want to give money to THEM so you can stop the sick gays from corrupting the children?" (as if he at his wise old age of 12 was no longer one of "the children"...) I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. My mom ended up deciding to keep it to show dad. Hehe and like five minutes ago my lil bro came in here wondering what we were going to do with this broken down car thats in our driveway "when we move" and so I asked him something to the effect of "what the hell are you talking about? We aren't MOVING..." but he says that dad was talking about moving out of MD if they pass a new gay rights bill that's being legislated or whatever you call it when they try to pass bills. He doesn't want those "dirty homosexuals" (mom's phrase, not dad's) corrupting Drew... I'm starting to realize I live in a very biased family. Waaaaait no I already knew that. Realize it even MORE, then. They seem to think that all queers are sickening perverts who are speeding down to the seventh circle of hell...

      sighs

  •  Does it work for Bush family too? (none)
    "does it seem that every high-profile anti-gay figure has a gay child?"
    Hmmm, what about the twins?

    And to the whiners: this is war. The only goal worth pursuing right now is the utter and complete annihilation of the GOP. Anyone who doesn't want to go there, is too wimpy or lukewarm should just consider voting for that bunch of fascist thugs, because letting the GOP survive the next 4 years will just enable them to steal the country again and again in the future. The planet and mankind as a whole can't afford it to happen if they are to survive; it's as simple as that.
    So, every single Repub is fair game, and that means their private business and family as well.
    If you see a Repub, slime him. If you doesn't know why, he does.

  •  maya (none)
    The anger in this thread seems to be that she "campaigned" for her father.. but if you read her blog, it's pretty clear she disagrees with him about virtually everything. She has this circle of friends, GLBT youth, some of them into drugs, some of them sick with hiv. She seems like a totally different story from mary Cheney, who may have been "out" but was a very conservative type always. Maya's blog is full of empathy and pain.

    But it's pretty hard to break with your father when you're only 19.

    And even if she's not ashamed of being gay (which she's clearly not), it's pretty hard to be dragged into the celebrity ring of our insane culture because of who your father is.

  •  Show of hands? (none)
    I wonder how many of the folks asking Kos to take the photo down are gay?

    I thought so: very few.

    I say put the photo back up, Kos. Hell, they're a cute couple!

  •  Ill-advised? (4.00)
    (First, an editorial nitpick: unless it's been corrected while I was working on this post, the first sentence of the post identifies Maya herself as "our good gay-hating Republican."  The phrase "the daughter of" should be inserted before that phrase.)  That said, on to the substance of the post itself.

    On the one hand, Maya is clearly not in the closet, and has not been outed by Kos's action.  On the other hand, it is also clear from her post about protecting the site that she was trying to cope with increased media attention, and having some difficulty with it, a problem that is now likely to be exacerbated by several orders of magnitude.

    In addition, the post quoted somewhere on this thread from her girlfriend's blog mentioned the girlfriend's mother possibly "outing" her to "Maya's parents, which would NOT be cool."  The implication of this is clearly that Maya's parents were unaware that the girlfriend is in fact a girlfriend.  So Kos's post, which is likely to increase the media attention on Maya, may have contributed to unknown levels of pain and conflict between Maya and her parents and her girlfriend.

    Yes, she is working for her father's campaign, and yes, the blogs are public, so one could say it is a problem that has resulted in (large?) part from her own choices; but as several here have pointed out, she is only 19, an age at which few of us are particularly far-sighted about the consequences of our actions.  And how could she have foreseen something like this?

    My first response to this post was that its tone bothered me.  The headline was something you might expect to see in the Enquirer; it smacked of sensationalist gossip.  The focus was not on Keyes' hypocrisy, but on the scandal of his daughter's sexuality.  If the original post had contained the comments included in the update, it would have had an entirely different emphasis.

    But even had it had that emphasis, the post is still of questionable value at best.  The rationale several have put forth, that we should do this because the Republicans would, is completely insupportable.  If ends justify means in any and all cases, then we are no better than those we oppose.

    I am not an ideological purist.  We do not live in a world of perfect moral clarity, and deciding what is justifiable and what is not is not always easy.  But there was no compelling reason to post this information.  Keyes is not an elected official, unlike Dick Cheney, and is not in a position to actually affect the legal rights of gays; and he is not in a competitive race, so even for those who think that such "dirty tricks" would be justifiable in a close race, it was unnecessary.  

    If the argument is that Keyes' hypocrisy needs to be exposed as part of an overall agenda of opposing homophobia, then that's a different matter.  Those of you in the lesbian and gay communities can provide better perspective on whether you think the post has those merits.  But in that case, the post should have been written from that viewpoint.

    All in all, this post did no discernable good that I can see (barring the potential long-term benefits alluded to in the prior paragraph), and may have done harm to two young people trying to live their lives.  It does nothing I can see to enhance dKos's mission or reputation.  I think there are better uses for this blog.

    No man is justified in doing evil on the grounds of expediency.--Teddy Roosevelt

    by Leslie in CA on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 12:54:37 AM PDT

    •  "Keyes is not an elected official" (none)
      I won't argue with the comment above (my views are below in a separate comment).

      However, Keyes is running for the US Senate and he has been a candidate for the US Presidency.  He is a very public figure, and is an outspoken and virulent anti-gay politician.

      "pay any price, bear any burden"

      by JimPortlandOR on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 01:00:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Mixed emotions. (4.00)
    Full Disclosure: I'm gay, and proudly out, and 'old'.

    What makes this matter of interest to (some) dKos readers?

    Allen Keyes is a notorious homophobe, who says many untrue and despicable things about gays.

    He is a national figure, not just an Illinois Senatorial candidate, and he is a stalwart Republican - a party that advocates often for anti-gay legal measures.

    His daughter is part of his campaign, of legal age to vote and serve in the military (and elsewhere).  She is entitled to privacy to the degree she makes reasonable efforts to maintain privacy.

    The nexus between the daughter and the candidate is ONLY because she works on his campaign, and to the degree that the candidate uses his daughter to reflect positively on his character while attacking gays, that is a legitimate campaign issue.  

    If she did not work on the campaign, and she wanted privacy and took steps to maintain that privacy, she is entitled to it.

    Many gays do not believe that political candidates should attack gays while keeping their gay family members in a closet - a family closet as well as a political closet.  

    Some have said that Keyes will lose anyway, so this isn't worth controversy.  I remind those people that Keyes is the most outspoken hater of gays in the country's political scene.

    It seems obscene to me that Keyes would do what he is doing - he can't have failed to notice his daughter's rainbow bracelets and not understood what they indicate.  I guess maybe he feels that his family is off-limits, but he can freely destroy the lives of countless others with his viscious anti-gay attacks.

    So, does this belong in belong in dKos?  This is a political blog of the democratic left.  We shouldn't let ends justify means, but in this case the means are appropriate and self-justifying - as well as the ends.

    "pay any price, bear any burden"

    by JimPortlandOR on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 12:54:59 AM PDT

    •  Good points (none)
      I have but one quibble: Your comment

      * took steps to maintain that privacy

      can be interpreted  (as some commenters here have) as her having taken appropriate technical steps to maintain her privacy, e.g. installed appropriate protective guards. However, if her intent was to keep part of the site private (for instance the photograph, now taken down, which strikes me as being intensely private) we should respect that regardless if the measures were technically inadequate.  In particular, since most users really on Microsoft Products which are crap as far security goes.

      Everything else you say though is quite right.

  •  My battle-tested thoughts (4.00)
    First and foremost, there are a number of moral issues intertwined here. It's hard to figure what the answers are when you don't even know the questions.

    So let's start by laying out some principles and see where they take us.

    -------------------------

    (1a) The fundamental principle of fairness when going negative on a candidate (and I think we will all agree) is that the attack should have its substance in the conduct of the candidate in which the public might have a valid interest.

    (1b) This includes attacks on the candidates personal character - it is not an invalid "ad hominem" attack if the attack raises fair questions about the candidates general truthfulness, sanity, intelligence, etc. that would affect their ability to fulfill the duties with which they seek to be entrusted.

    (1c)The rationale behind this rule is that is necessary in a democracy for candidates to be fully open to inspection and criticism, so that the public may be fully informed in making their decisions, and thereby make the best decision.

    (1d) Generally (but not always), family matters and the personal matters of family members are not "fair game" for attack. The bright line is not whether the attack necessarily involves familial relations, but rather as noted above whether it is relevant to the candidate's public conduct. So for example, an extramarital affair would not normally be relevant; but it might be if, for example, it was with a government intern (see dictionary entry for "Bill Clinton"). Or if the candidate has already made an issue out of their supposed piety (see dictionary entry for "Rev. Jim Bakker," "Rep. Bob Livingston," "Jack Ryan", etc).

    (1e) I suppose one could argue that there is a difference between bringing up spouses and children, since people get to pick their spouses but not their parents. In essence, that no one should be "brought into" an issue unless they choose to do so (principle of choice).

    (1f) But any "carve out" to the general proposition in (1a) is going to undermine it. Accordingly, either there should be no such carve-out, or it ought to be narrow. The rule which best satisfies the general proposition as well as the second (principle of choice) is, "if an adult child (such that would have capacity to understand the commitment they are making) works on their parents' campaign, they are fair game."

    (2a) People have a general right to privacy.

    (2b) But anything that is advertised is not private.

    (2c) Moreover, such right to privacy is voided by the public's right to know, as discussed in bullet points 1a - 1f.

    (3) If someone admits to being gay, there is a strong presumption that this is true; whereas if it is merely rumor, it must be presumed not to be.

    (4a) There is nothing inherently morally wrong about being gay.

    (4b) But a lot of people think there is.

    -------------------------

    In the current case, I think this is "fair game," and the people arguing otherwise are either hopelessly prudish or have contempt for democracy. I think the arguments have already all been spelled out by others, so I'm not going to say any more, aside from noting that I think if you applied the principles I listed to the facts it would be obvious.

    -------------------------

    That said, there are pragmatic concerns about posting this sort of stuff. First of all, there are a lot of people who unthinkingly assume that anything that is "personal" or "familial" cannot be talked about, and these people have a tendency to whine incessantly.

    If we were pondering the forms, it would be easy to tell them to screw off. But we are practicing politics, and that naturally means accomodating their prudish, anti-democratic viewpoints, even if they are wrong for pouting on about "the helpless child who is still in the closet, even if she isn't really (a) helpless, (b) a child, or (c) in the closet."

    So it's a good idea to avoid a very public discussion of this sort of thing, because the likely result is blowback. And I think that's what we are getting here.

    -------------------------

    And I must further go on to say... damn Markos, you sure don't know how to run a proper whisper campaign. The idea is that you are transient. What I would have done, is I would have anonymously e-mailed this out to the third-tier blogs (you know, like BurntOrangeReport.com, where I post!) as well as to known gossips. Get them to push the story line, and if it blows back, let them deal with it. In addition, what you do is call people up anonymously or flier cars in church parking lots.

    Shit, you really haven't been paying attention to how Karl Rove and the bad boys actually get things done, have you? For shame.

    For anyone taking names, I'm Jim D, and my position is not that Kos is evil. My position is that he is not sufficiently evil and that is a problem.

    (Now, I am not exactly sufficiently evil myself. Ask DailyKos uesrs joeesha, whose opinion on the dispositve matter I share. Incidentally, we are/were both understudies of a great online political Sith who shall go nameless. Although from time to time I have adopted the online persona of "Darth Jimbo," that is all you shall hear or see of my dark lord ways).

    "Save a country, boot the cowboy." (Apologies to Big & Rich).

    by JimTXDem on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 12:56:35 AM PDT

  •  Outrageous reactions!! (4.00)
    spends so much time wringing it's hands over how "mean" it is for Kos to talk about a woman who ALREADY OUTED HERSELF??? Great way to perpetuate the meme that you have to be ashamed and hide if you're gay.

    Anyone who does not realize that blogs are public property is an idiot. It's as simple as that. This is the Internet. This is not her diary. She is not a victim.

    Keyes runs around calling gays selfish hedonist and vicously demonizing them for political gain. So yes, his daughter is fair game, because he made all gay children, including the Vice President's own daughter, fair game.

    Kos did nothing wrong. If he had spied on this woman (and she's a woman, not a girl - she's 19) as she left her apartment and then took dirty photos of her when she made out with her girlfriend in a private area, then he would be wrong. Pointing out comments she made on HER OWN VERY PUBLIC BLOG is NOT wrong and is NOT outing.

    No wonder Dems have lost so much in the past 10 years, with all this endless handwringing and pointless moralizing.

    And the people who gave ultrageek troll ratings for taking a strong position in favor of this and explaining why -- puhleeze!!

    Once again it seems like a huge majority of the straight people here are against outing, and once again one of the major reasons seems to involve some sort of "shame" in being gay. I know not everyone gives this reason, but I hear this one again and again and it reminds me of how much work is left to be done.

    •  Had the same reaction (4.00)
      I also find it bizarre that people get indignant about using someone's sexuality "as a weapon" in DEFENSE against hypocritical bigots who use sexuality to deny BASIC RIGHTS to people under the law and demonize them in society.

      And making bizarre statements that a person sexuality should not be an issue, when the fact the non-heterosexuals are discriminated against and denied equal rights BECAUSE of their sexuality almost induces snot-bubble laughter in it's being so misguided (however well intentioned by some).

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

      by Lestatdelc on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 02:04:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  JamesB3 I am with you. (none)
      I was shocked that many here assumed that she must be in the closet, as though that is the natural tendency for a young lesbian!?  WTF?  After this, I hope we have a renewed focus of defending gay rights on this board, of promoting gay issues and exposing the bigotry that exists in BOTH of our major parties.  I realize education is a big part of this fight, now more than ever.  But also, I can read the comments of people I completely disagree with here, people who are I think misguided, and still see that they are good people.  Over at Free Republic they cheer Abu Ghraib.

      "Two daiquiris/ withdrew into a corner of the gorgeous room/ and one told the other a lie." John Berryman -- Dream Song 16

      by Twodaiquiris on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 05:50:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Agreed. (none)
      If a suspected criminal drinks from a paper cup, crumples the cup and throws it in a public trash can, the police can collect the cup, uncrumple, and sample it for DNA.

      i.e., there is no reasonable expectation of privacy when one puts something out in public (even if he or she takes minimal efforts to hide it, such as crumpling and throwing away a cup, or shifting information to a different portion of a website).

      As soon as someone posts something on the internet, it is likely cached on servers and Google and personal hard drives.  If you don't know that, you're a moron.  If you expected privacy, then such expectation was not REASONABLE.

      Even if she took the site down, if she ever wanted information to private, she NEVER WOULD HAVE POSTED IT in the first place.

      Therefore, there has been NO OUTING.  There has been no BREACH OF ETHICS.  And the wimpy, wussy reactions in this thread are indicative of why the Republicans control everything.

      _______________________________

      My cat's breath smells like cat food.

      by snahabed on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 12:17:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  As usual on this subject, we agree. (none)
      Maybe we all need to have a homo-dkos caucaus sometime.
  •  RE: Who Cares? (none)
    While not getting into the debate of whether this was "fair", it really seems unbelievably irrelevant and unnecessary given the poll numbers in Illinois.  

    To me, its like gratuitous violence in a movie (i.e., irrelevant and unnecessary).

    Or if you prefer sports analogies - its piling on or unnecessary roughness.

    Obama is going to win by 15 points or more and whether Kos or anyone else highlights or gives exposure to Maya Keyes is going to make no difference in this race.  Which makes me wonder what this is all about?  Given the state of this Senate race, is giving exposure to this really about politics?

    ... now watch this drive.

    by jg on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 02:09:49 AM PDT

    •  Disagree (none)
      Anything that may hurt Alan Keyes credibility within the wing-nut community over this is a good thing (though not too hopeful there).

      He is a particularly virulent bigot when it comes to non-heterosexuals, and anything to heap more disrepute on him in ANY circles, particularly in the anti-gay circles within the black community is a good thing.

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      No one will change America for you. You must work to make it happen.

      by Lestatdelc on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 02:17:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why do you ask? (none)
    Is it of any interest?

    Disappointing issue and thread.

    For free speech, against free lies.

    by mimi on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 05:03:05 AM PDT

  •  Well... (none)
    After reading a few of her entries, and ignoring the strange abortion-related post with the bad fonts, I gotta say she's turned out surprisingly well-adjusted (moreso than I was at 19, that's for sure), given the things I've heard her father say. She's bright and funny, and sounds like someone I'd definitely be friends with, if I knew her.

    Jury's still out on what I think about the link here.

    My dissent ensures your democracy.

    by Worship Your Toaster on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 05:29:27 AM PDT

  •  "we are The Noble Failures!!!!" (4.00)
    fuck all you losers~!!!!!

    i wonder how many of those wailing & gnashing their teeth are actually paid operstives ...."she is but a CHILD! cmon KOS, we dont do this!!! we are The Noble Failures!!!!"

    well if being noble leads to failure let me dish some fuckin dirt & WIN!!!!!!

    www.nornsisland.com

    by n69n on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 06:50:03 AM PDT

  •  I Keyes disowns her... (none)
    ...I bet Barack Obama would adopt her.  Keyes can go, to borrow Dick Cheney's suggestion, fuck himself.

    I really just hope Maya doesn't get too badly hurt over all this (it's impossible for her not to have even before this, with him as a father, though).

  •  What kind of person is Maya, (none)
    who would prefer a power-grab to the truth of her own best interests?

    A lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on -- Mark Twain

    by jnagarya2 on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 09:20:34 AM PDT

  •  Those Earrings (none)
    Maya is wearing those same hexagonal hoops on the Alan Keye's bio page from the Illinois Leader http://www.illinoisleader.com/photo/photoview.asp?p=398
    as in the hot interracial lesbian kissy pic posted by Wonkette.

    Nice earrings, wonder if she has matching navel, nipple, and clit rings?

    I will have a vice president who will not conduct secret meetings with polluters to rewrite our environmental laws -John Kerry

    by easong on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 09:54:15 AM PDT

  •  Is she really out? (none)
    Lot of comments here, so I haven't had time to read them all. Maybe someone has already covered this...

    I just read this on Maya's girfriend's blog:

    My mother and I have been getting into fight after fight and I'm just so fucking tired...One of the worst fights we've gotten into was all over this picture of me and Maya.  She freaked out.  She's all about the "dirty fucking sinful queers" thing.  Before I left, we got into yet another  huge fight over the fact that she was going to out me to Maya's parents which would NOT have been a good thing.  I called her a homophobic prick.

    Could it be that Keyes doesn't know?

    The ethics of this thing could get a little sticky...

    Just sayin'.

  •  The Awful Truth TV Show (none)
    As I recall it was Maya who encouraged her father to jump in Michael Moore's Mosh Pit back in 2000. It was controversial because Michael Moore was playing music by the band "Rage Against the Machine".
  •  What's Worse? (none)
    Dating interracially or dating homosexually? I mean in the Keyes household...no problem for me with either or both. Sure Alan's an overt and virulent homophobe but he can't even talk reasonably about matters of race. The "Obama...slaveholder" remark comes to mind.

    With today's poll showing Obama opening up a 51 point lead, I wonder how much of Keyes' 17 points will further dwindle among his devoted army of fundie hatemongers?

    I will have a vice president who will not conduct secret meetings with polluters to rewrite our environmental laws -John Kerry

    by easong on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 10:45:37 AM PDT

  •  two cents (none)
    This current breed of Republicans are bullies. As long as you turn the other cheek, they will kick your ass. Because it is red meat to the flat earth society that believes this shit. And it makes you look weak to the moderates and swing voters. Like all bullies, these Republicans are cowards. They can dish it out, but they can not take it. You punch them hard a few times, guess what? This shit will go away. The only reason this smear and fear crap has played out so long, is you guys turn the other cheek. Hit back and hit fast and hard and it will go away.
  •  How many of ya'll were out dykes at age 19? (none)
    I was. I think the rest of ya'll should just simmer down.

    She could have protected her journal and made it friends only if she wanted to (like I have mine).  

    Also, she's not a kid.  I think ya'll forget that one is actually an adult at age 19. If she wanted no one to know, then she would have made everything private, not wear rainbow stuff everywhere, etc.

    What is so wrong with being gay that people keep freaking out about it?  Clearly her family is dealing (or barely dealing) with the situation already anyway, I doubt that this will change that very much.  

    It's really not that horrible being gay nowadays folks! Really!

  •  aoeu (none)
    Attention all self rightous breeders:

    She's working to get her daddy elected so he can fuck over gay people.  Get over yourselves.

    Attention all rational straights:

    I love you.

    My turtles laughter
    was loud when the Yankees lost
    22 to zilch

    by TealVeal on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 03:13:36 PM PDT

    •  TV (none)
      Way down here at the bottom of a nearly-dead thread, I'd like to engage you on this without the noise of others who I don't yet know to be sincere posters on the site.  

      I think this is different than the Drier and Schrock things.  Sure, she's supposedly campaiging for her dad, but I'm not sure every 19 year old with a whack-job for a dad can be seen as a completely autonomous rational actor not under the influence and control of her parents.  She didn't ask for her dad to be an idiot in front of millions of people, spewing vile and idiotic beliefs, but she's probably been told she has to campaign for her dad.  As somebody who at 19 years old just about got the shit beat out of him for defying his step-father on a matter of principle, I can understand that some people will stand up to their families.  But I also understand that I might not have been as likely to stand up against by step-dad had I spent my entire life under his influence and control and not just after I turned 16 years old.  (FWIW, we now get along fine.)  

      There are two conversations taking place on this thread.  There were plenty of comments posted befoe the update, when there was a picture of Maya Keyes and an unnamed woman kissing above fairly salacious text about her possibly being gay, which could be confirmed by looking at a blog she appeared to believe was secure but really wasn't.  Then, after a shitstorm of abuse--some generated by me, plenty more by tons of different people--Markos changed the post by taking down the picture and acknowledging that Maya Keyes may actually already be out, which would mean that this wasn't an outing.

      Well, I wouldn't have had a problem with a post, if it were known to be true, about Alan Keyes spouting homophobic crap while knowing and seemingly accepting a lesbian daughter.  I have no problem with such conversations about Cheney or Gingrich, and as I said before, I'm ambivilent about outing pols, but lean toward outing those who act against the interests of people with whom they share a sexual orientation but deny it to the public in order to advance their careers or preserve their status or power.  But even though she is 19 and not 15, and even though she is out campaigning for her dad--which in the absence of links we have to accept on faith--and while she didn't really secure her website even though she thought she had, I think it was wrong to attempt to out her on DKos.

      Here's the crux of it for me: who's going to be hurt?  Accepting that the original post was intended to out her--if maybe not to her family but certainly to the public--who is intended to wound?  It was certainly intended to cause harm; it wasn't a "let's think about what is already in public circulation" post.  It was a "look at what we've found out" post.  That being the intent, the effect wouldn't likely have done much harm to Alan Keyes, either in terms of material outcome--he's still going to lose the election huge, and hypocracy doesn't lose one a conservative audience, as has been shown by Cheney and Gingrich.  Keyes also doesn't seem to care about his daughter, because if he knows he says awful things anyway, and if he doesn't know, what he says probably indicates he's treat her consistent with his publically espoused beliefs.  The only person I can figure who would be hurt is Maya Keyes.  (I guess possibly the other woman in the photo as well; she may not be out to her family and would possibly prefer to come out to them under her own terms--and yes, I recognize that Maya Keyes would share blame for posting the photo in the first place (if it came from her blog), but the offense, if it is one, would have been exacerbated by Markos.)  So, since she's a 19 year old with a whack job dad, probably under parental and public pressure to adhere to the family political line--which she apparently doesn't personally believe, based on her HRC button--and who may not be out to her family, which may cause her dad to be a worse father than he probably already is (since he sets such a horrible public example of intolerance and idiotic fulmination), she's the one that would pay a price for this, not her dad.  If this makes it harder to come to terms with who she has decided she is, regardless of what her family may think, it's a wrong.  I belive those decisions are for her to make, and nobody else.  

  •  Has someone already addressed... (none)
    ...that 'outing' the Repub's queer offspring is just bad tactics?

    I'm wondering what the typical downstate bigot would think of this shitstorm, and I expect that it would NOT be: "Marge, we were gonna vote for the colored fella who wants to get the gays off the TV and back in the closet...but since he has a daughter who's a queer, I guess we'll stay home instead."

    More likely, this type of data will provoke this response: "Even though that colored guy has a kid who's a queer, he's still standing with Jesus on the fact that those gays are immoral pre-verts. Let's see if we can vote for him twice."

    As a former Midwestern queer kid who was out to my family a long time before I turned 19, and yes I paid a price, I'm pretty amused by all the fuss about the ethics of 'outing' as applied to this situation.

    Don't y'all get it? Maya has no direct way to stick her (raised middle) finger in Daddy's eye and get to go to college before she's 24...except using the power of Google and knowing human nature.

    Kos, you've been played, honey. This was bad for the Democratic Party, but good for Alan's campaign, and good also for poor little Maya, whose parents can't blame her for any of it.

    Bush/Cheney '04: Don't change horsemen in the middle of an apocalypse!

    by PhoenixRising on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 07:10:15 PM PDT

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site