Daily Kos

McMahon as Sylvester...

Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 03:43:17 PM PDT

Hard counts, hard counts, hard counts.

That is the only issue that matters to political insiders right now. What's a hard count, how is it calculated, what are the campaigns expecting in terms of their hard counts, how much will organization and resources matter to turning hard counts into actual caucus-goers on Monday night, and do these polls mean anything?

Let's start with the last question. Yes, the polls (most recently the Des Moines Register poll released last night with Kerry at 26 pct, Edwards 23, Dean 20, Gephardt 18) have everybody buzzing, although they are inherently inaccurate. Why? For one thing, the Iowa voter list that all the campaigns purchased is not exactly current. The Iowa Democratic Party charged each camp $65K for the list, knowing they had a monopoly to exploit. There are addresses where there is no longer even a physical house, and there are people who have registered recently who are not on the list. And then, of course, campaign rules allow people to register and even change their party registration on caucus night. So, trying to figure out who is voting when there are names on this list that are stale, and people not on the list who are live and in play, is tricky.

No, it's impossible.

Moving backward through our questions, that means organization is important, but NOT just because of delivering people, but by identifying who their "ones" are - committed people who have pledged to show up to their precinct caucuses, the sum of which is the ongoing "hard count" for each campaign, with each candidate hoping the hand he's holding close to the vest reveals the best hard count. Gephardt just said on Russert he thinks a hard count of 35,000 will be enough to win. I'm not sure, because I'm thinking the total caucus-goer total may exceed 160K, and 35K would be a solid 25% of 140k, but not enough of 160K.

And that raises the issue of what, exactly, the denominator will be -- the total statewide caucus-goer turnout Monday night. The higher that number rises, of course, the lower the campaign's hard count ratio translates into total percentage of support. (Of course, the final dominator on Monday is the same for ALL campaigns.) So, if the indications are that turnout is rising, but your hard count is stagnating or only making slow progress, that means you're losing those newly-mobilized caucus-goers to somebody else.

And that's why the question on everybody's lips at Chequers bar last night was this: "What's Dean's hard count?" Steve McMahon, Joe Trippi's partner in the Dean brain trust, looks like Sylvester grinning with Tweety Bird in his mouth. He won't give the number, of course, but he seems very confident that his hard count will be a high enough numerator no matter what the denominator. And here's why: The rumor last night is that, of Dean's hard count "ones", a startling 60 to 65 percent of them are self-identified, first time caucus-goers. McMahon could be spinning, but that doesn't make sense - he surely does not want to raise expectations and then have to explain comparative failure on Tuesday. Second place, certainly third, and definitely fourth, would be comparative failure.

If it's true about the share of committed "ones" that are first-timers, however, and if the total number of hard count Deanies (first time or rarely-participating or newly-affiliating Democrats, whatever) is that high, this is important because this means Dean is toting a disproportionate share of these beneath-the-radar voters. That is, if the demoninator is larger than expected or we've seen historically, those new or newly-engaged people are disproportionately committed to Dean and his growing numerator is pushing up the growing denominator. One related point: The dirtier the list the Iowa Democratic party sold all the campaigns, the better it is for the campaigns with the most field resources, those of Dean and Gephardt, because they have had the time to work through and clean it, tighten it. In theory (and practice?), Dean and Gephardt have worked out kinks that Kerry and Edwards are just now encountering.

Bringing this full circle, the New Republic's Ryan Lizza and I pestered McMahon about whether these late polls, and the whole Kerry/Edwards surge news cycle, is potentially the BEST thing to happen to Dean, because it is lowering expectations for Dean's campaign without Dean having to do a darn thing himself.

McMahon conceded it could be, though he really didn't seem bothered about the polls or any expectations-game post-Iowa spin opportunities. His take is that it is what it is - the number will be what it will be. And he repeats that this is just Moment 1, and that the others cannot keep up over the long haul of the next two months in states where Dean is up and running and they are not.

Still, I think the poll numbers of the past two weeks (especially last 4-5 days) set things up this way: If Dean wins by any margin at this point, suddenly he is again the candidate who continues to surprise his doubters.

But that only happens if the Tweety Bird (Dean's true, undisclosed hard count) is really real, and not just a few feathers poking out of the corners of McMahon's mouth. We'll know in about 34 hours.

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  •  Pretty obvious... (4.00 / 11)

    If the Dean campaign has a "hard count", of 60K or so, especially if they are usual non-voters, then frankly, the whole race is over. Not just Iowa.

    The spin come Tuesday morning, will be a combination of "WTF?" (considering the Kerry-Edwards "surge") and Holy S#%@. Can anybody stop the Dean machine? Furthermore, getting that many new bodies out, for a caucus even. Has Dean tapped into the holy grail of electoral politics? The proverbial non-voter? Is Dean beatable? Even by Bush?

    I suspect that Dean is sitting on that gold-mine anyway, regardless of what IA does. However, it would just make it too obvious to ignore.

    This is our story...

    by Karmakin on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 03:51:09 PM PDT

    •  Where do you get 60K? (none / 0)

      Where do you get 60K?  I read Mr. Schaller's post several times and I can't find any number for Dean's hard count.  All I see is that 60-65% of Dean's hard count are first-time caucus voters but that does not mean much if his hard count is 25K (by example).

      Am I missing something?

      •  Math (4.00 / 5)

        Can't speak for Karmakin's math, but just crunch some numbers yourself.

        Polls usually go off of old voting lists. So if Dean got 20% of a (normal year) 130K caucus, that would be 26K experienced voters. But if new voters are 60% of Dean's hard count, then that's an additional 39K for 65K total.

        Highly unscientific, but it makes the significance of the rumors a lot clearer.

        •  I'm not sure (none / 1)

          I'm not sure that follows.  Even if 60-65% of Howard Dean's hard count is from first-time caucus-goers, a great many of those would still appear on the voter registration lists (no matter how old they are).
          •  ...as democrats (none / 0)

            Most polls go off the SOS voter registration list, and take into account only those who were registered as Democrat. Certainly there would be a certain number of registered Democrats who have never taken part in a caucus before, but I suspect most of the first timers are people who have registered recently or changed affilliation.

            Certainly there is cause for dissatisfaction with the 65K figure, so crunch your own numbers. Still adds up to a lot of people (assuming that the 60% figure is true, and assuming that they actually show up).

            •  That's fine (none / 0)

              That's fine and I'm not referring to the polls.  The polls would obviously be innacurate if they're based on faulty calling lists.  What I'm referring to is the 'hard count' which has nothing to do with polls.  Where is the 60K number coming from?  The highest I have seen for Dean from any remotely reliable source was 40K, and that was from before he started losing support.
              •  Hard count (none / 0)

                As I said up above in my first post, I don't know where Karmakin got his 60K number. And nobody that I know of ain't talkin' just yet.

                I discerned that you were having trouble seeing the significance of the (rumored) 60-65% first-timer figure, so I decided to put together an estimate of my own, based upon the (systematically inaccurate) poll numbers and the (speculative) first-timer estimate. Take it as you will.

                •  Oh, I see (none / 0)

                  We must've miscommunicated.  Probably my fault.  No, I think the first-timer figure is quite significant.
                •  If Dean's Hard Count is 40,000 . . . (none / 0)

                  He may win this in a walk.  Record turnout it 120k, if I'm not mistaken.

                  A 33% increase over the previous record is only 160k.  Dean would have 25% of that.

                  If there are candidates -- the "other three" who pony up 40k of their own, or more, they deserve the accolades.

                  Keep that numerator at 40 and ratchet down the demoninator and things look better and better for Dean.

                  I'm ready for anything on Tuesday, but the confidence level -- give the huge slide in the polls -- must mean something.

                  Trippi et al have made me nervous with "questionable" promises for expectations but have yet to let the DFA community down.

                  An if Dean's HC is 50k or 60k, fagghidaboudit.

                  John McCain a/k/a John Sidney "Grampy McSame"

                  by MRL on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 05:40:52 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Wrong (none / 0)

              Pollsters do NOT call lists of registered Democrats.  We call random households, asking them demographic questions (in addition to the poll questions) in order to properly weight the respondent.  

              The poll questions that determine "likely voter" status go like this:

              -What is your political party?
              -Are you registered to vote?
              -Did you vote in the last election?
              -Do you intend to vote in the next election?

              Answer "Yes" to the last three questions, and BINGO...  You are a "Likely Voter."

              •  How useful are these questions in Iowa? (none / 0)

                Since voters can register or change affiliation at the caucuses, the first three questions will certainly leave out some likely voters.
              •  You obviously aren't working for the DM Register (none / 0)

                http://tinyurl.com/ytwbf

                The Iowa Poll, conducted for The Des Moines Register by Selzer & Co. Inc. of Des Moines, is based on interviews with 606 registered Iowa voters who say they definitely or probably will attend the Democratic caucuses. Interviewers contacted voters registered as Democrat, Green or no-party by using randomly selected telephone numbers from the Iowa secretary of state's voter registration list. Percentages based on the full sample may have a maximum margin of error of plus or minus 4 percentage points. Republishing the copyrighted Iowa Poll without credit to The Des Moines Register is prohibited.

                Further, your methodology has its own obvious issues (given that the number of honest-to-God caucus goers is so small compared with the total number of households).

              •  Politus Got It Wrong (none / 0)

                Politus: you're the one who is wrong.  Most of the candidates are using listed sample, which is typical in primary/caucus races.  RDD is more common in general election races.
        •  I just want to say... (none / 0)

          That I almost did a terrible thing just now.

          I was going to rate this diary.  But just as I was clicking on the rate-all button, my finger touched the roller & it changed my rate to a 1, rather than the rating I meant.

          This is always my fear when I want to rate posts.  I always worry that If I don't press the rate-all button for each one, that I will accidentally scroll a previous rating to something I don't mean.

          Sorry about being off topic, but it really rattled me.

          Eat4Today, Crushing Republicans through diet and Exercise....

          by katiebird on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 04:42:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ratings backtrack (none / 0)

            I'm nearly sure that you can change a rating by simply entering a new one and hitting the ratings trigger. I haven't tested it, but the ratings-entry window is still there even after rating a post.

            -- Rick Robinson

            The best fortress is to be found in the love of the people - Niccolo Machiavelli

            by al Fubar on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 04:49:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Rate All (none / 0)

            BTW, I've been wanting to ask wtf does "rate all" mean?  I just want to rate one post once in a very great while, since for the most part I consider these ratings a huge pissing contest.  Rate all freaks me out and I've been too lazy to look up the instructions that came with this game.
            •  me too (none / 0)

              I have this same question, and I did try to look it up in the instructions.  Why does it say "rate all" next to each individual comment rating box?  What happens when you click it?  It seems to only register the rating for that one comment, but I've never been absolutely sure.
              •  Rate all (4.00 / 2)

                What you do is set the number on all of the posts that you'd like to rate from the pull-down menus.  Then, once you've hit the bottom of the page, you click "Rate All," and the ratings get applied to every one of the posts you've set a number to.  It will not rate every post; just the ones you've put a number on.

                blog | -6.13, -5.95 | Live every week like it's Shark Week.

                by folkbum on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 05:29:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ratings (none / 0)

                  OK. So why do some posts have a rating of none, but a count of 1 rather than 0?

                  This has bothered me for a while. I have yet to see a count of 2 or higher for a rating of None.

                  Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

                  by Rick B on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 06:58:51 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  ya need 2 ratings (none / 0)

                    to make an average that gets used.

                    none/1 is when just 1 person has rated the post.

                    i toss out ratings often, just because i believe good posts should be rewarded, and because i feel it's part of our duty to try and rate accurately.

                  •  Duh (none / 0)

                    Those counts are the TOTAL number of ratings given by dKos readers.

                    You're not alone here, don't you know? ;)

                    The "none" (or whatever you set it to) in the dropdown box is the rating that you have given (or will give if you hit "Rate all").

                    •  Ratings (none / 0)

                      If so, then there should be very few None/0 if there are None/1 's. The reverse seems to be the case. Most ratings are None/0 with a few None/1 's.

                      I am of course ignoring the real ratings that also appear in the list for this discussion. Any rating that is 1 through 4 also seems to have a reasonable number after it, such as 4.00/2 or something. It is merely the None/1 's which strike me as curious.

                      Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

                      by Rick B on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 08:40:04 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Aha! (none / 0)

                        Ok, I was under the impression that you were talking about the "none" in your ratings box.

                        The one next to the totals means overall rating for this post and it takes at least 2 ratings to change a "none" to an overall average. Otherwise "none/1" is show, regardless of the rating.

                        •  Ratings (none / 0)

                          Oh! The light goes on.

                          If I rate your comment as a 4:Excellant [as, of course, everything which falls on the screen from your keyboard obviously deserves], and I am the first to do so, it will appear as None/1 because there is only a single rating of any numerical value. Only when a second rating is applied would there be an average posted.

                          Have I got it?

                          Though, if that is the case, I see nothing wrong with a 4.00/1 as an average.

                          Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

                          by Rick B on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 09:09:40 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes (none / 1)

                            Though, if that is the case, I see nothing wrong with a 4.00/1 as an average.

                            It's because it should be at least two votes for an  overall rating to count, for they contribute to your trusted user status (many recent good ratings give you special powers).

                            BTW you can check out the individual ratings by clicking on the "none/1" (or whatever is displayed).

                            •  Ratings - reply to Yes (none / 0)

                              OK. I think I've got it. Clicking on the reported rating made it clear what you were telling me. Thank you very much.

                              Now, for the always existing political question. Who established the rule that only two or more ratings count? Kos? Whoever designed the system we are using? Someone else?

                              And is there a user's guide of all the features on this commenting system? If so, is there an ~index~ that we not-so-geeky-ones can use to get quick answers to the system details (not to say quirks - no no, I would NEVER say quirks.)

                              Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

                              by Rick B on Mon Jan 19, 2004 at 07:37:28 PM PDT

                              [ Parent ]

                    •  Duh (none / 0)

                      Maybe I wasn't clear.

                      I understand that each time some separate individual rates a comment from 1:Troll through 4:Excellant, there will be an average provided with the number of separate ratings included in the average. 3.33/3 is clearly three ratings, one 4 and two 3's made by three people.

                      "None" is not a numerical rating, however. Yet I see ratings of None/0 and None/1. I have not seen a None/2 or higher denominator.

                      My question was what is the difference between None/0 and None/1? None is the default, that is, unrated.

                      It isn't a major problem, just a matter of mild curiosity. Does it have any meaning? Or is it an undocumented feature of the kind that MickySoft seems so happy to provide us with?

                      Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

                      by Rick B on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 08:55:11 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  Rate All only for some windows (none / 0)

              The Rate All box doesn't show up in the Dynamic Threaded setting but it does in Threaded (I can't get Dynamic Threaded to work on my work computer and still open inner comment threads without crashing the Windows Explorer [??]).

              since for the most part I consider these ratings a huge pissing contest.

              And don't knock the rating system. I rarely have the time to run through 147+ comments but when I know I have 15 minutes to check in it's nice to be able to scan quickly to the couple "hot spots."

              The polls don't tell us how a candidate is doing; they tell us how the media is doing.

              by Thumb on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 06:41:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Caveat (none / 0)

          That all being said, 130K plus 39K is a whole lot of caucus goers. So take it as you will.

          But it still gives you an idea of what can happen if the figures are true (and all those people show up).

        •  Caucus Math (3.50 / 4)

          If Dean got 20% of a normal years' 130K, that would be 26 thousand, yes.  By your math, that 26 thousand voters would be only 40 % of the actual number committed to Dean, so the Dean total would actually be 65 thousand caucusers.  The additional 39K of voters would increase the caucus total to 169K.  Now 65K over 169K equals 38%!!  Incresing numerator and denominator one-for-one rapidly increases the ratio.

          If Dean got that proportion, wildly out of line with the polls, he would be a huge winner.  

          Even allowing for ploeg's comment below, it seems there is a real potential for Dean getting close to 30% of caucus voters at the end, not counting second choices people may make in some precincts.  

          Hmmm, I'm beginning to think there's a reason why the Dean camp is not worried by the polls.  Interesting electoral (caucus) math, indeed.

          •  re: Caucus Math (none / 0)

            > I'm beginning to think there's a reason why the Dean
            > camp is not worried by the polls.

            And moreover, having the polls indicate that the race is tight ensures that Dean's supporters come through tomorrow night. For example, if the weather is bad, you would have a lot of people who would say that, "Well, Dean's going to win anyway, so I don't need to brave the snow", and then Dean support doesn't translate into numbers tomorrow. But with the polls so close (whether or not that reflects actual support), few supporters will fail to fulfill their duty.

            •  Yeah.... (none / 0)

              and what I don't know is how I'm going to get thru the next 40 hours.  I'm practically tuned in full-time to Kos...
              •  Kos on computer, C-Span onTV (none / 0)

                except now.  I'm not gonna watch Republicans.  I'll come back to it at 3:30....

                Eat4Today, Crushing Republicans through diet and Exercise....

                by katiebird on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 06:09:45 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I have a nagging negative thought.... (none / 0)

                  What if Dean wins the caucuses big, but the media focuses on just the final poll numbers.  They could peddle the Dean victory as a meaningless organizational victory, whereas the typical Iowans actually preferred someone else (edwards/kerry)?

                  What ever happens, I'm not going to lose much sleep.  The first real test is still New Hampshire.  Next week is going to be nerve wracking as hell.

                  Patriotic, flag waving, radical centrist Howard Dean Democrat. Until we stand on principle and lose our fear of defeat we will never win.

                  by rusrivman on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 06:32:26 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Dean will keep going (none / 0)

                    Whatever happens, the Dean campaign will forge ahead. The campaign has outrun the media all along the way and it won't stop now
                  •  Doesn't matter (none / 0)

                    The caucuses are about showing off your organization, and finding the issues so that you can fine-tune things before the next rounds. Historically, candidates who win Iowa don't necessarily go on to win the nomination, and candidates who lose aren't killed unless they're hurting badly already.

                    That's why I'm kind of scratching my head about Clark giving Iowa a pass. Certainly he was late to the party and he's never done this before, but that's all the more reason to compete in the early rounds, so that he can get things ironed out. Next week, he'll be discovering the types of problems that the candidates competing this week will have detected and solved already. Well, we'll see how it works out for him.

                  •  Maybe not (none / 0)

                    > They could peddle the Dean victory as a meaningless
                    > organizational victory

                    That would be hard to do since all the news programs I've seen today are [gleefully?] showing Dean in 2nd or 3rd according to two specific polls.

                    So the news story, should Governor Dean win, would be how did he break from 2nd or 3rd into first place. Trying to tell your average non-news-junky that Dean won even though he was "behind" just a day before due to "organizational abilities" is pretty nuanced for most news programs to want to bother with. In fact, it's about as easy to describe as explaining why polls based on random number dialing are more accurate than polls taken from outdated Democratic party voter lists.

            •  Caucus rather than vote (none / 0)

              I think that if people show up at a caucus and there is a large group of Dean supporters, they are going to look around and see who is second. Then the people who came in intending to vote for the persons who turn out to be third or fourth will switch.

              If the Dean voters are mostly young true-believers, then my bet is that most of the switchers will go with number two, or with Gebhardt (if he is not number 2) because of familiarity.  

              A caucus is a lot more dynamic than a straight vote because everyone is there at once, and there is no secret about who is voting which way and who is getting how many votes. That's going to make the polls mostly useless in predicting votes other than Dean's.

              Similarly, a lot of people who have never turned out for a caucus before is going to make it difficult for pollsters to determine who is even a likely voter.

              My bet is that Gebhardt and Dean have the best organizations, and they will wind up splitting the top two groups of voters. The average age will be a great deal lower for Dean. Then they go into New Hampshire against Clark.

              Dean will then win NH based on organization, money and carry-over from his postion of number 1 or 2 in Iowa. Clark and Gebhardt will then split the older group of voters. I'll bet on Clark there. It will be a battle between Clark and Gebhardt for number two until March 2, and that will pretty much determine the Clark vs anti-Clark race.

              We are definitley look at interesting times.

              Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

              by Rick B on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 07:31:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Caucus dynamics (none / 0)

                I think that if people show up at a caucus and there is a large group of Dean supporters, they are going to look around and see who is second. Then the people who came in intending to vote for the persons who turn out to be third or fourth will switch.

                Rick B, have you been to an Iowa caucus? At the one I used to attend, everyone broke up into their groups at once - and people weren't allowed to come late. So it's not a matter of coming in and seeing groups already divided. You hear the call to divide, you go to your corner, and then you look around and see how big the other groups are.

        •  I see your logic, but (none / 0)

          You make the assumption it seems that the 20% in the polls is 20% of a "normal turnout" of 130k caucus goers.

          The poll ranking of 20% was of those polled which was a very small number.

          I can certainly see the logic of a great number of new registrants not showing up on the list that is used to poll folks making the list not very relevant, but there were screening questions - especially in the DMRegister poll, that accounts for the distribution.

          I understand the difficulty of polling results for a caucus because of the dynamics of "viability" on a precinct by precinct basis, but that doesn't make the poll itself invalid.

          •  Admittedly... (none / 0)

            my methodology is not airtight, and I accept all your criticisms gladly.

            If anything, though, I'd question the 60-65% first-timers figure. Numbers like that are unheard of. If they can deliver that, it would be a huge story.

        •  Umm.... (none / 0)

          Hate to break everyone's bubble, but polls don't work off of ANY voter list. A long time ago they did, but these days to avoid problems with unlisted numbers they just randomly dial digits.

          So whatever the problems with the voter list the Iowa Dems are hawking, they won't be the source of error for the polls.

          •  We settled this earlier (none / 0)

            Polls like this have to work off of voter lists. Otherwise it's impossible to separate the (relatively small) pool of likely caucus goers from the (relatively large) pool of people with phone numbers.

            For example: the Iowa Poll:

            http://tinyurl.com/ytwbf

            The Iowa Poll, conducted for The Des Moines Register by Selzer & Co. Inc. of Des Moines, is based on interviews with 606 registered Iowa voters who say they definitely or probably will attend the Democratic caucuses. Interviewers contacted voters registered as Democrat, Green or no-party by using randomly selected telephone numbers from the Iowa secretary of state's voter registration list. Percentages based on the full sample may have a maximum margin of error of plus or minus 4 percentage points. Republishing the copyrighted Iowa Poll without credit to The Des Moines Register is prohibited.

          •  LA Times is only IA poll to do RDD (none / 0)

            and nit had Dean with comfortable lead

            Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH! If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy

            by teacherken on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 09:58:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Long campaign (none / 0)

      It will be a campaign into March, regardless. Iowa and New Hampshire may reduce the number of bodies to two in short order, but there's no way you're going to get your candidate before the big states speak on March 2.

      Iowa will be important, though, in that it allows the candidates to show off their organizations, and to find the rough spots so that they can work on them before the bigger prizes later on. (Plus it's a bit like Christmas for political junkies.)

      •  Iowa will be crucial, if for no other reason . . (none / 0)

        than cash, cake, moolah, dinero, bling bling.

        McCain came out of NH with a solid win and gave him a boost in cash that he needed.  It still wasn't enough for him against Bush, but it helped.

        If no other candidate gets a "money boost" in their campaigns from Iowa or NH, then there will be less and less $$ for "organization" in the crucial 2/2 states and beyond.

        Part of me likes the tightness -- though I'd sleep better if Dean was walking away with it -- and it makes things interesting and validates thoughts I had about Edwards (Kerry has not appealed to me, ever).

        But if these new Iowans are not ponying up the $$ to Edwards et al., it might be mostly for naught.

        John McCain a/k/a John Sidney "Grampy McSame"

        by MRL on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 05:47:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  the holy grail (none / 1)

      Has Dean tapped into the holy grail of electoral politics? The proverbial non-voter?

      If Dean's hard count shows that "60 to 65 percent of them are self-identified, first time caucus-goers," that will be a remarkable achievement. Big. But it will be much, much more challenging to achieve that percentage in primaries, which have much higher turnouts than caucuses.

      Rove and gang are targeting the many millions of evangelicals who didn't vote in 2000, so we can expect they will increase turnout amongst new voters, too. Shepherding new or rare voters to the polls will be one of the campaign's huge battles and is among the reasons I don't think Kerry can win the general election. On that score, Dean, Clark and to a lesser extent Edwards are the better equipped candidates (or so I think -- proof will be in the pudding).

      So no, there's no "Holy Grail," and the race is not even close to over, regardless of how many new voters Dean brings in (unless it's many millions, in which case it will be a Dean landslide).

      •  Re: the holy grail (none / 0)

        Rove and gang are targeting the many millions of evangelicals who didn't vote in 2000, so we can expect they will increase turnout amongst new voters, too.

        I thought turnout among evangelicals was already very good;  are there really millions of untapped evangelical votes that Rove can plausibly turn out?

        And what states are they in?  Driving up Bush's vote percentage in Alabama isn't going to help him win.

        •  turning out conservative evangelicals (4.00 / 3)

          Well, this is a matter of contention. The Washington Monthly says, Bush has maxed out his support with conservative evangelicals; 84 percent voted for him in the 2000 election. To win reelection, he will need to hold onto the votes of another group which supported him in 2000: religious moderates. But here's an alternate (but complementary) view from Perspective, one that I've read elsewhere:
          Karl Rove has gone so far as to say that increasing support for Bush among Evangelicals is his single biggest goal. There is a keen awareness that even as a vast majority of the 15 million Evangelicals who voted supported Bush in the last election, some 4 million of the 19 million total failed to vote at all... While many Evangelicals are in states that are solidly pro-Bush to begin with, some Midwestern states Bush lost last time (like Iowa and Wisconsin) could be taken more easily with Evangelical support.
          Rove's efforts will be targeted at the swing states, not California or Alabama.
          •  You know what this means .... (none / 0)

            ... Gay marriage will be the big GOP issue in 2004. Most Americans are against it (unfortunately), and the evangels love this issue. So he'll bash Dean the gay-lover.

            Reality-based progressive.

            by Pops on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 06:00:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  that will be the case no matter who the candidate (3.66 / 3)

              so, gutcheck time.  Do you stand on principle or sell out/tolerate oppression of +/-5% of the population?

              Patriotic, flag waving, radical centrist Howard Dean Democrat. Until we stand on principle and lose our fear of defeat we will never win.

              by rusrivman on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 06:35:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  fuck the squares (4.00 / 2)

                we can't sell out anyone.

                we just have to make sure we don't get swamped and can't frame the issue so that it's one of civil rights.

                •  well put skaiser (none / 0)

                  Attitudes like yours are why I am a proud Democrat.  We stand with all the people.

                  Patriotic, flag waving, radical centrist Howard Dean Democrat. Until we stand on principle and lose our fear of defeat we will never win.

                  by rusrivman on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 07:28:59 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Gay Rights (4.00 / 2)

                  Civil Rights for Gays, and at the same time, no interference in the religious doctrines of the various religions.

                  Gays should have no sacred rights given them by government. That is the realm of the religious orgtanizations and is a major reason why there must continue to be a separation of church and state.

                  Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

                  by Rick B on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 07:50:56 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Right On! (none / 0)

                so, gutcheck time.  Do you stand on principle or sell out/tolerate oppression of +/-5% of the population?  

                Fuckin' aye.  Dean should use this quote a few times.  

                "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

                by Subterranean on Mon Jan 19, 2004 at 12:27:33 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  The Democrat's Holy Grail is increased TURNOUT (3.81 / 11)

        God, we can only hope. I am a confirmed Dean supporter, because the Dean Grassroots organization is the BEST thing to happen to the Democratic Party in my lifetime -- and I go waaay back.

        A great book on the topic is Cloward and Piven's "Why American's Still Don't Vote, and Politicians Like it That Way" -- a 1999 update of their 1988 book, "Why American's Don't Vote."

        Supressing voter turnout is the key to Republican ascendency -- increasing turnout is key to Democratic Success.

        Dynamic Democratic Candidates increase voter participation by 5 or 10 or 15 per cent -- FDR and the New Deal boosted turnout to 65%, and it declined until JFK and LBJ boosted it again.

        If Trippi and McMahon can do this, Dean will be the new FDR.

        Now, if Howard Dean can only learn the fine art of nuance . . .

        •  It doesn't take much (3.50 / 2)

          Think about it this way - if Dean's hard number is truly around 50,000, and 60% of those are first timers, that's 30,000 new voters in Iowa alone.  Just Iowa.

          Sprinkle 30,000 new voters across the country in key states in the last election, and Gore wins in a lanslide.

          And I think the key to Dean bringing in "new" voters is not just first-timers, but people who occassionally vote or haven't voted much in recent years.  If these "old" voters have renewed interest and turn out in large numbers, it could swing the election.

          Remember, several key states were within a few thousand votes in 2000.  It doesn't take millions of new voters to win.  Only thousands in the right places.

          •  it does take much (none / 1)

            Again, you're mixing the notion of new caucus voters with new voters in general. It's safe to say that many of these new caucus-goers have voted in general elections before. I'd love to see hard numbers after the caucuses that include all the facts and factors.

            I'm not trying to denigrate or minimize the Dean effort, which if it pans out as discussed will be remarkable, and is a key reason I support him. I'm just trying to add real-world perspective, which of course includes Republican GOTV efforts.

          •  Here are those numbers (none / 0)

            6 states were decided by less than 10,000 votes in 2000:

            New Mexico: 366 votes
            Florida: 537 votes (maybe)
            Iowa: 4,144 votes
            Wisconsin: 5,708 votes
            Oregon: 6,765 votes
            New Hampshire: 7,211 votes

            Here are the totals for all states.

            Music for America - Music and Other Social Causes

        •  Now, if Howard Dean can only learn the fine art of (none / 0)

          nuance....

          I've had this thought myself.  He's smart and new on the national stage.  I'm optimist that he will only improve.

          Patriotic, flag waving, radical centrist Howard Dean Democrat. Until we stand on principle and lose our fear of defeat we will never win.

          by rusrivman on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 06:38:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  What Is Your Quest? To Seek the Holy Grail (none / 0)

        Sakitume! writes:

        Rove and gang are targeting the many millions of evangelicals who didn't vote in 2000, so we can expect they will increase turnout amongst new voters, too.

        It's going to be tricky for them. What the evangelicals want for their votes is for BushCo to sponsor an anti-Gay Marriage Amendment. Of course, if they do that, they alienate lots of moderate voters.

        Tricky.

        •  Tricky (none / 1)

          Ah, yes, but Rove is quite tricksy, he is. He's in constant contact with religious right leaders, and my money is that he's saying stuff like this: President Bush has been there for you again and again, and you can believe me that we'll pursue the Constitutional Amendment in the second term. Tell your people to sit tight; we'll get there.

          In other words, Rove has almost certainly learned that thundering, Pat Buchanan-style hate speeches lose elections. Talk compassionately during elections, rule conservatively -- nay, vengefully -- afterward.

          •  Tricksy (none / 1)

            I have no doubt that what Rove wants is for all those evangelicals to be reasonable and sit tight until next year for their Defense of Marriage Amendment.

            The question is whether all those evangelicals are willing to be reasonable.  Reasonableness is not one of their defining traits.

            "You want my vote in November, Mr. Rove? It's been three years now, and you still haven't produced that Pro-Life Amendment you promised us in 2000. I ain't gonna wait.  Give me my Anti-Gay Amendment NOW! Or else."

      •  hmm (none / 0)

        The most active member of my local Meet-Up is the young woman (young to me, she must be 30) who said she'd never been into politics before!  She got dragged by her friend to a Meet-Up and now, a few months later, here she is our "leader" at our new, 3 months old, Meet-Up site.  She's good at it; nice personality that makes people feel comfortable.
      •  How 'bout them 17 year olds? (none / 0)

        Just got off the phone with my sister in Iowa, and she mentioned something I didn't know: 17 year olds can caucus as long as they're going to be 18 by November. We know Dean gets a lot (most?)of the youth vote. I wonder if there's been a below-the-radar effort to recruit high school seniors? None of them would be on any voter list.

        Purely anecdotal, but fun to speculate about. I sure hope we get lots of post facto numbers to dissect.

    •  Ground Forces (none / 1)

      How can the Kerry and Edwards camps have anywhere near the ground force that Dean does?  I don't buy into all the media skepticism and suspense.  Having talked to hundreds of people in Iowa, there has never been an overwhelming commitment to either of them -- even when they were the first choice.  People who've decided on a candidate during the last week are certainly less committed than people who've been working for their candidate for a year.  Tomorrow night should be very interesting.  I wish I could be there to see all the Dean 1's working the room.  Should be a beautiful sight.
      •  Kerry has two groups (none / 0)

        firefighters and veterans   -  there are some claims that he has 2,000 firefighters working for him.  That I doubt, but he probably has 400-500 from out of state.  And in last 10 days he has begun to get substantial support from veterans

        Michael Whouley is quite experienced at doing organization, but my guess is that the organization will be somewaht incomplete, because 10 days is not enough time, nor is the 3-4 weeks that Kerry has been seriously devoting to IA

        Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH! If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy

        by teacherken on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 10:01:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Spin (none / 1)

      What I fear may happen on Tuesday would be a concerted effort by the RNC/ lapdog media to totally dump the caucus coverage, winner, etc. and focus on the SOTU as some "defining moment" speech for Bush.  You'll see the yappy heads at Fox drone on about how it's a "blowout speech", he really captured the "essence of Amurka" the "democrats are behind the curve here" etc.

      Could it happen? If enough media outlets keep the message that whomever won in IA has the momentum now and whomever came in 2nd, 3rd, etc. can still keep their momentum it may overshadow bush.

      THAT is the main goal. OVERSHADOW bush at every step. If he proposes a government initiative to "establish a US base on Uranus" We call him on his alienation of our allies here ON EARTH.  Overshadow his message.

      He has a bully pulpit with which to speak from, after all, he has the entire governments resources at his fingertips.  We however have the people, the message and the desire for an America of the PEOPLE.  They just want to get rich off the people.

    •  I hope you're right. (none / 0)

      If Dean pulls Iowa out of the hat, well . . . .

      All Dean folks certainly hope McMahon knows what he's talking about.

      And is not spinning the loom.

      To a Democrat, "democracy" means "free elections." To a Republican, "free markets."

      by XOVER on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 08:39:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Question on Iowa Poll (3.66 / 3)

    Are the people running the Iowa poll using the Democratic party list? or are they doing a true random phone poll that would require screening out Republicans?

    Because if the former the implications for our projections here are huge.

    •  Very good question.. (none / 0)

      If the pollers are using the OLD lists, and a good portion Dean's supporters are coming from off that list..

      And considering Dean has decent support on that old list anyway..

      Can anybody possibly check into what list the pollsters are using?

      This is our story...

      by Karmakin on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 03:54:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Polls (3.80 / 10)

      The only poll I'm aware of that did full-scale random-digit dialling was the LA Times poll a while back that showed Dean at 30, a solid lead. The Iowa Poll is based off the Iowa Secretary of State's voter-registration list. Most of the others, I think, work from that as well.

      January 20, 2005: Fooled us twice. Shame on us.

      by schwa on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 03:54:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Poller burnout (3.60 / 5)

        And as I mentioned in somebody's Diary:  My exgirlfriend lives in NH and she's just at the point of total burnout with pollers and campaigns calling.  If she doesn't recognize the callerid, the phone doesn't get answered.

        The IA polls just shifted too much for no apparent reason for me to believe them.  I'm not sure what the truth is, but I'm convinced the polls ain't it.

        •  Not surprised (3.50 / 2)

          Yeah. I've done a few calls to Iowans for Dean and got hung up on once as soon as I identified myself. I don't think I even got to naming the candidate; it was more "...am a volunteer for <click>." I got several answering machines on repeated calls, and a few "he/she's not home now". I wonder how many people instruct their families to say they're not home if a campaign calls?

          I'm sure there are some people who thrive on the attention, but equally sure that there are some who hate it.

          Yes, I'm still for Dean.

          by Mike Jones on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 04:35:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks much, now another Q (none / 0)

        But then we take this from Tom's excellent post.

        "And then, of course, campaign rules allow people to register and even change their party registration on caucus night."

        Does this mean register to vote? or just allowing Independents and Republicans to register Democratic for maybe just the one night?

        Once again, big implications for the fly under the radar scenario.

      •  How on Earth do you know that? (none / 0)

        Unless you work for a polling outfit. Pollsters don't generally release stuff like that.
    •  polling (none / 0)

      http://slate.msn.com//Default.aspx?id=2093760&

      The above has some interesting speculation about the methodology of caucus polling and specifically Zogby's.  

      Basically, the gist is that they probably are using a sample that doesn't reflect actual caucus goers.  Out of 3000 Random dial, you might come down to 500 actual interviews and of that you discard all but 165, on the theory that 500 represents all of Iowa and 165 represents the people who will actually caucus.

      But thats like saying 1 in 3 Iowans will go to the caucuses!  Which is absurd.  

  •  stop it (3.87 / 16)

    stop getting me excited!  Damnit!  Your just making me more nervous...  And I don't know why I'm so damned nervous.  I started out indifferent.  I liked Dean.  I liked Clark.  I liked Kerry.  Now I have turned into a total ridiculous Dean Supporter.  Almost as blind in my support for Dean as some folks here are for Clark (although a bit more rationale in my humble opinion...).  And I'm losing it hoping for a Dean win tomorrow.  What the hell is my problem.  All I know is that 65% would be totally ridiculous, so long as Dean has more than 100 1s of course.

    ok.  i'll leave the rationale discourse to the rest of you today.

    •  I tend to be indifferent and lazy (4.00 / 6)

      but I am just holding off writing to NH until we know what happened in Iowa so I know what to write in my letter. Then, husband, toddler, infant and full time job be damned...writers cramp, here I come. That kool-aid is sure something, ain't it?

      Barack Obama will only become president if enough people pay attention, so pay attention, dammit!

      by JMS on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 04:02:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  now I'm stuck (none / 0)

        OK, since I said this publicly and everyone's given me the nice ratings, I guess I have to write the letters now, right? :)

        Barack Obama will only become president if enough people pay attention, so pay attention, dammit!

        by JMS on Mon Jan 19, 2004 at 11:04:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  stop it (3.71 / 7)

      I'm in the same boat, Seamus. I did start out 14 months ago as a Dean supporter but a loose one. Then I was intrigued with the General. But now I'm a raving maniac for Dean. Now I think that only he can beat bush by bringing in new voters. I defend him to everyone. I write nasty letters to the nytimes excoriating the op-ed writers for their snide Dean comments. Good thing my blood pressure is low and there's no heart disease in my family. Otherwised I'd be toast before it's all over.

      "The truth waits for eyes unclouded by longing." The Tao Te Ching

      by hester on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 04:06:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Clark more Electable (2.00 / 9)

        I was a Deaniac, but Dean's public presentation is so clumsy and rough, as well as his personality, that I've switched to Clark.  Clark WAS against the war, regardless of what Drudge says (just read the actual Sept. 26 transcript), and he IS  a Democrat (The entire Clinton White House is running his campaign).  I don't think this "new voter" strategy of Dean will work.  Those people don't vote because they don't care about or follow politics, not because they haven't found a candidate to believe in.  Clark will negate any Foreign Policy advantage Bush may have over Dean, and Clark's smarts, great speaking, his great domestic ideas, along with his ability to appeal to swing voters in the South and Midwest makes him the Democrats Best Chance to Beat Bush.  Everybody should get aboard the Clark express, NOW!
        •  I see your point (none / 0)

          But what about the money issue? Don't you think that Clark opting in federal matching funds (thereby limiting himself to spending only 47 million until after the democratic convention) will kill him? That's the one thing where I think Dean has a great advantage over Clark.
        •  Clark came too late (none / 0)

          He lacks money, and boots on the ground, but I'm not against Wes, but I feel he late and till he shows me he can catch up I'm sticking with the Dean machine.

          I prefer peace Wouldn't have to have one worldly possession But essentially I'm an animal So just what do I do with all the aggression?

          by jbou on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 08:33:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  What's with the ratings? (none / 0)

          Rating fellow Deanies up is ok, but what's with rating this guy a troll just because he supports Clark?  He's got a different opinion, but he's just as entitled to it as anyone else.  This sort of ratings abuse is really getting on my nerves.  

          Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

          by Asak on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 11:23:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Here's a 3, Ben.... (none / 0)

            although the comment itself IMO didn't add much to the discussion of the polling data, I agree with Asak that it didn't deserve a troll rating so I artificially inflated your grade.

            I can see that you are new to this place, and I've only been here for a couple of months, tops, myself. Welcome.

            I do hope that we will be able to engage in more constructive conversation in the future; I note that your only four comments have been in this diary, and three of them have been anti-Dean related (Kerry's rise=anti-Dean; Dean is a draft dodger (why didn't THAT get rated down?), and the comment in this thread). The fourth comment had Dean as Clark's VP. Given that this is happening the weekend before the Iowa caucus, it's not as though you're about to change anybody's minds here on this board about Dean, or Clark, or any other candidate for that matter.

            Stick to the issues, keep it clean and/or funny, and I'm sure you'll be okay.

            There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. --Benjamin Disraeli, cited by Mark Twain

            by sheba on Mon Jan 19, 2004 at 12:10:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Hey! Snap out of it! (none / 0)

      Iowa has served Howard Dean's campaign well NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS TOMORROW.  Its Iowa and NH that have put Howard Dean on the map.  Now he's got the highest national polls, the most supporters, the most money and the best fundraising.

      Remember 2000 and Bush battling McCain all the way through, even though Bush had a $100 million warchest?  Well, it was always inevitable that Bush would win.  McCain never had a chance but he kept the race going through like April and getting creamed in primaries like New York.  

  •  Great entry! (none / 0)

    And funny too.  I like McMahon from what I've seen on Crossfire, etc..  I've been waiting for this post since your teaser earlier.  Very exciting stuff.

    "First, let me make it very clear, poor people aren't necessarily killers. Just because you happen to be not rich doesn't mean you're willing to kill." - Shrub

    by kelly on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 03:51:56 PM PDT

  •  Best of all Possible Outcomes (3.90 / 10)

    As I've said before, I think a strong argument can be made that the beating Dean's taken in the media and polls these last couple weeks will prove the best of all possible scenarios for him (assuming he wins in IA and NH), as it will prove he's a fighter who can weather the storm.

    Victory - after such a bashing - is the ultimate refutation. I think Dean will be stronger for the timing of these attacks than under any other scenario I could imagine.

  •  this is better coverage of Iowa (3.90 / 11)

    than anything you will read in the NYTimes or Washington Post. it's fantastic. great work and major kudos. thank you so much for sharing it with us here.
  •  Dean (4.00 / 2)

    Well, Trippi himself has said that Dean's standing in the polls probably is off by three to four percent because of the fact so many of his supporters are "newbies" to the IA caucus.

    I hope He's right and Dean wins... but I'm having the jitters all week from his slipping numbers... and I wouldn't be surprised if Kerry won... (yeah push polling is paying off)

    Question to Tom Schaller:

    do you have on the ground information about the push polling Kerry is doing against Dean and which ahs been revealed by ABC?

  •  I second skaiserbrown (none / 0)

    Thank you!
  •  Edwards with first-timers (4.00 / 5)

    I get the feeling that Edwards is sitting on a fair number of first timers, as well. Although he would likely have a difficult time holding their hands in the same way Dean's army can.

    At any rate, I hope we can come out of IA with meme #1 being: "Democrats have so energized the voters that they blew away the previous record for turn out to the caucus."  No matter who won, that would worry uncle Rove, I think, because it would show that we can match (exceed) his ability to get fired up voters to the polls.

    And I'd prefer if meme#2 was "Dean brought so many new people into the process, he scored a surprise come from behind and then ahead and then behind again victory in IA." I'm more cautious on this one--I think the Kerry surge is real, and Edwards support is real too.  But if I could get both my memes, what a Monday (well, Tuesday morning) it would be.

    This is the way democracy ends Not with a bomb But with a gavel -Max Baucus

    by emptywheel on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 04:07:04 PM PDT

    •  I Like Point #1 (none / 0)

      Hopefully this Democratic race will generate lots of energy and divert attention away from Bush and his SOU moon station distractions.
      •  I Like Point #1 (none / 1)

        <div class="blockquote">Hopefully this Democratic race will generate lots of energy and divert attention away from Bush and his SOU moon station distractions. </div>

        Yeah. Bush promises a moon colony by 2025, but provides no real money. You will notice that the first result of that Bush promise is the early end of the Hubble Telescope.

        They kill Hubble now, promise a moon colony and manned Mars mission later, but gut the federal governments ability to finance much of anything,  and destroy our military at the same time.

        If Bush is reelected, the only people who will be in space by 2006 will speak Chinese.

        God! I really hate that Republican gutterslime! Bush/Rove/Cheney have to go!

        Democrats stand for Liberty, Security, Support of Families and Opportunity Whiskey Tango Foxtrot - over

        by Rick B on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 09:42:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Edwards' first timers (none / 1)

      Could be, but can he give them a ride to the caucus?  I saw reports that the Dean campaign had to go to Nebraska to rent mini-vans, the implication being that just about every rental in Iowa has a kid in an orange hat sitting behind the wheel.  In the Edwards thread it was said he was bringing in a few hundred out of state volunteers.  Fine for phonebanking and the like, but not enough for the physical get out the vote operation I understand Dean is putting on.

      So I am pulling for meme #2.

    •  Which brings to mind ... (4.00 / 2)

      a line I'd never heard from Dean before, when he and Harkin showed up in SC yesterday and tore the roof off our lovely architectural treasure of a courthouse (pix at BFA, but they don't really do it justice).

      At any rate, in between hammering the importance of showing up Monday night (which he's also doing in his new stark-white-background ad, which I must have seen half a dozen times in the first half hour arriving home), there was this: Even if you don't caucus for me, show up anyway.  It's too important not to.

      So maybe they're sitting on the aforementioned gold mine, or they're trying to temper expectations by turning the story from a Kerry/Edwards surge, a Gephardt coup de grace, or even a narrow Dean victory into "Look how many f---ing people came out in the cold!  Bush is toast!  Oh, and Dean won."

      "Do not offend the Chair Leg of Truth! It is wise and terrible."

      by section29 on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 04:54:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  ....show up anyway... (none / 1)

        "Look how many f---ing people came out in the cold!  Bush is toast!  Oh, and Dean won."

        That would be my candidate. Sounds like the heart and mind of the campaign, which, despite every snide and mean implication being aggressively churned out for many months now, is the candidate.

      •  that's what I wrote (none / 1)

        ...in all of my IA Dean letters.  They were all different, but they all closed with variations on "Please remember to go caucus on January 19th (and, if it were up to me, of course, I'd have you support Howard Dean!). :)"
        There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. --Benjamin Disraeli, cited by Mark Twain

        by sheba on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 06:14:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  geppy and lieberman (3.50 / 2)

    i just realised i totally forgot about lieberman.  when does he withdraw?

    sounds like geppy folds on tuesday, so does he endorse anyone?  if he endorses clark it seems like it would be a major blow to kerry and edwards.  another step to the dean vs clark horserace.  after that i dunno.  it seems to me endorsing edwards would be the next most significant in terms of affecting the race.

    as a dean supporter, the proof of the pudding is in the eating - and iowa will be that meal.  how many people can the dean campaign turn out?  if dean wins but the attendance figures aren't over 150k then we need to do more work.

    •  Re: (3.00 / 2)

      Holy Joe stays in until March 2nd, then gets out and endorses Clark.

      Who Gephardt breaks to is kind of a mystery to me. I see a Clark endorsement as being pretty unlikely - if Gep chooses to endorse right away I think he'll go with someone more liberal. I doubt he will endorse until the convention, though. He'll probably hold out hope for a cabinet position or VP nod.

      •  Geppy's cabinet spot (none / 0)

        Sec of Labor?
        •  it doesn't work like that . . . (none / 0)

          I'd be surprised if anyone gets cabinet posts to the eventual nominee/president's administration.

          If they have a job, they'll go back to it, if they don't they'll find other work.

          Edwards won't be anyone's AG.
          Gep. won't be anyone's Sec. of Labor.
          Clark won't be anyone's Sec. of Defense.

          Write it down.  Call me on it if I'm wrong.

          I don't see Forbes, Keyes, McCain, Bauer, Hatch, etc. in the Bush Admin's cabinet.  I don't expect that'll change in this case.

          John McCain a/k/a John Sidney "Grampy McSame"

          by MRL on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 06:06:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thank you! (none / 0)

            This is a very good point.  I'm surprised at all the speculation about which candidate will get which cabinet post or VP.  It usually doesn't pan out like that.
          •  In all fairness, that's because ... (none / 0)

            they were all (with the exception of McCain and maybe Hatch) complete fucking loons.

            Although, I wonder, if Ashcroft hadn't lost to the late Mel Carnahan, that AG Hatch would have been so implausible.

            "Do not offend the Chair Leg of Truth! It is wise and terrible."

            by section29 on Sun Jan 18, 2004 at 08:49:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  We *always* forget Lieberman around here. (none / 0)

      That says something (but I'm not sure if it's more something about Lieberman or something about the kos blogmunity).

      Lieberman is likely to stick in the race for a while, actually.  He has a couple states in which he's polling well, so if he can hang on until then he probably will, hoping he can pull a rabbit out of a hat.

      Speaking of hats, if you are completely tied in knots about the current contest and the remaining number of hours until we get an IA count, and if you haven't already seen this... THE HAT IS YOURS.

      (The song is in Lebanese, but the transliteration is into Swedish, and a click on the "English" link on the side may help.)

      •  Let's forget Lieberman (4.00 / 2)

        Lieberman is likely to stick in the race for a while, actually.  He has a couple states in which h