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Surely to God this thing is going to break wide open!

 

Published on Saturday, November 6, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
Evidence Mounts That The Vote Was Hacked
by Thom Hartmann

When I spoke with Jeff Fisher this morning (Saturday, November 06, 2004), the Democratic candidate for the U.S. House of Representatives from Florida's 16th District said he was waiting for the FBI to show up. Fisher has evidence, he says, not only that the Florida election was hacked, but of who hacked it and how. And not just this year, he said, but that these same people had previously hacked the Democratic primary race in 2002 so that Jeb Bush would not have to run against Janet Reno, who presented a real threat to Jeb, but instead against Bill McBride, who Jeb beat.

"It was practice for a national effort," Fisher told me.

And evidence is accumulating that the national effort happened on November 2, 2004.

I sooo want this thing to be nailed, with the pointy end stuck inside Bush's empty head.

Anyhow, the rest of the article is here.

Originally posted to stunster on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 02:34 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Do we need anything else? (4.00)
    Guys, have you seen the graphs concerning the exit polls and results in paper ballot and e-voting states?
    •  aeou (3.96)
      Yes, I have.  In fact, 'twas me who posted them.

      Don't thank me.   Just spread the word.   And is it ok for me to do the hat tip thing now?

      Four more years of peace and prosperity---not

      by stunster on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 02:40:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  We're gonna have to do this ourselves... (4.00)
        Because no one is going to help us. It's up to you and me.

        Kerry has this anti-"crying into teacups", anti-"tinfoil hat" stance that will initially stop him from leading a demand for a recount. I think he probably sees it as the "sore loser" tag.

        But the truth is that we are the real losers. Because when our votes don't count we are no longer a democracy, and that's a very grave situation to be in.

        And the world is watching.

        •  Boy Scouts will never defeat Darth Vader (4.00)
          Paul Krugman in the New York Times said Kerry would probably win if the votes were fairly counted, but they wouldn't be fairly counted, and he was so right.

          Democratic Boy Scout good manners in the face of Republican Darth Vader tactics...

          ...means expect more of the same in 2006, 2008, 2000whenever.

          •  This election was so important (4.00)
            being in the middle of war, Haliburton, Enron, dead soldiers, dead civilians, 3 Supreme Court Justices leaving the bench, Ken Starr waiting in the wings, deficits as far as the eye can see, social security privatization and flat taxes being waved threateningly ...

            If the 2008 election was tampered, there will never be another non-tampered election. If this one isn't worth fighting, none will be. After this one, if voting can't be fixed, there's no point in voting as we know it.  

            We will need a drastic replacement, like having voting last for one week and taking every registered voter who supports Democrats to one side of the country, and ever registered voter who supports Republicans to the other side of the country.  Line them up shoulder-to-shoulder along the continental railroad and see which line is longer.  Have every voter witness and audit the "papers" of their two neighboring voters.

            That specific suggestion is tongue-in-cheek, but an example of the kind of ideas we are going to need if we can't fix this election.

            There is a simple motivation for auditing this election.  If the process is vulnerable, then the process must be fixed.  The identity of the attacker is irrelevant.   How do we know that terrorists did not hack the election?  I don't think Republicans would have tampered with the election, because they have too much to lose if they are caught.  But terrorists have nothing to lose, they are already hated and we are already at war with them.  Maybe the Bin Laden tape was a decoy to distract everyone from terrorist attacks on our election integrity.

            First we fix the process.  Then we identity the perpetrators.  Then we worry about prosection.

        •  Optimizing Troll Tracking (4.00)
          We have:

          • people arguing against data analysis
          • people posting images of excel spreadsheets when they could as easily post excel/CSV data
          • people moving focus to Diebold when there are more obvious and easier to prosecute anomalies
          • people trying to use one portion of suspect datasets to validate other portions of the same suspect dataset
          • people trying to elevate 2000 datasets as trustworthy controls for 2004 analysis, which is foolhardy at best

          In short, we have A-list trolls.  Separating pro-Dem advocates from simula-Dem trolls is a necessary but costly overhead.

          Back in May, I released a Mozilla plugin for dKos members that performs local (private) red/blue colorization of usernames on dKos.  

          It is particularly useful in troll-infested data analysis discussions, because it provides a form of "institutional memory" for reuse of comment-audit investment.

          Download the plugin here.

          I started collecting data-related diaries at the site in my sig, but am 2 days behind.  Anyone maintaining a list of data diaries?

          •  So anyone who disagrees is a troll? (none)
            I believe that the best predictor of FL 2004 voter behavior is FL 2000 voter behavior, or at least that it is a much better predictor than voter registration, or PA 2000 voter behavior, which are the two controls that the authors of the original author use.

            Does that make me a troll?

            So far, the only compelling bit of evidence anyone has come up with that the election was stolen after the fact has been the exit polling. And even that hasn't been so dramatic as to be inexplicable. I'd love to see people working those numbers, rather than basing their analysis on silly assumptions that no one crosses party line or that FL is identical to PA.

            76% of dKos readers think I'm a secret wing-nut operative!

            by Gustavo on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 01:15:04 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Not everyone is a troll (none)
              Only those who attempt to deceive by blaming everything on the terrorists.  Puullleeeaaaazzze!!!

              Maybe we should get John Ashcroft on the case and he can raise the terror alert!

            •  Hacked is different from Stolen (none)
              "Stolen" makes an assumption about the perpetrator.

              "Hacked" makes a statement about the crime.

              Investigation begins with the crime and ends with the perpetrator.

              That there exists more than one suspect is sufficient reason to avoid jumping to conclusions about the perpetrator, especially if those conclusions get in the way of evidence collection for the crime itself.

              First things first.

              •  ALERT: This Diary has been hacked! (none)
                The following thread is missing from this diary, but was present on Saturday evening:

                Listen good (4.00 / 4)

                Or read good. Whatever.

                I've got to HTML files on my computer which I downloaded from the FL Secretary of State site, NOT from blackboxvoting.org or any tin-foil or even non-tinfoil media site.

                In case you missed it: from the site of the Florida Secretary of State

                These two pages are the following, one for turnout, the other one for presidential voting numbers. If you add the numbers (that is addition, not sophisticated statistical analysis subject to opinion, but addition), then you see that 200,000 more people voted for president than reported as turnout, including absentee ballots.

                200,000. Not 154, 308, 2450, or some random error like that. 200,000.

                Consider that bush's 350,000 vote advantage disappears if you just flip 175,000 votes.

                What more evidence do you need to take this seriously?

                Let us rid ourselves of the fiction that low oil prices are somehow good for the United States.
                by M Aurelius on Sat Nov 6th, 2004 at 19:52:17 EDT

                The cited data is here:

                Unofficial County Turnout
                vs.
                Votes for President

                •  In the final analysis. . . (none)
                  In the final analysis, what does this really mean?

                  Will the  election results be overturned?

                  Will Democratic strategists/operatives learn anything for the next  race(s)?

                  Will American know?

                  Will America care?

                  Will the rest of the  world go on about its business of its new realities?

                  We have seen OUTFOXED, so why are Democrats still appearing on Fox? The Republican house organ.

                  by Lords on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 12:30:49 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Using those links... (none)
                  I got a total of

                  7,588,422 votes for president
                  7,350,900 people turned out
                  237,522 more votes for president than voters

                  Hernando reported 0 turn out with 109,696 registered voters.

                  If we grant them 100% turn out we still have 127,826 extra votes.

                  If we give them 71.4% turn out(reported state avg) that gives them 78,323 votes for 159,199 extra votes.

                  If we give them 78,809 as reported on CNN for a turn out of 71.8% that leaves 158,713 extra votes.

                  If we give them 76% turn out(The avg of the 3 surrounding counties) that gives them 83,369 votes for 154,153 extra votes.

                  Anyway you want to slice this we have a serious problem.

                  ps 3% spoilage would take 220,427 votes off the expected total. Minimum over votes(127,826) added to that gives 348,353 suspect votes. Against a margin of victory of 380,952 that leaves only 32,599(a 0.4% margin) If we use the other end of the range(159,199 + 220427 = 279626) a margin of 1,326(a 0.02% margin).

                  Conclusion: A full investigation and recount has the serious potential to over turn the results in Florida and give Kerry the presidency. Right now I would say this case looks stronger than Ohio.

          •  Ha! I'm probably Troll colored (none)
            I was nearly lynched for saying it was over for Kerry unless his TV ads improved.
          •  Mozilla-based (none)
            Does this work for Netscape, since Netscape is a Mozilla product?
    •  the analysis is out go read it! (4.00)
      its just a correlation folks yeah a damn strong one! http://ustogether.org/election04/Liddle_Analysis.html

      It takes into account precinct size and the correlation is unreal! It is a correlation that is meaningful statistically in a big way.

      The good news is that the precincts in which the anomalies occurred are in optical scan counties!This means there exists a paper trail!!

      The most annoying things about trying to emphasize just how extremely important this information is and how I believe it is THE HEADLINE is that immediately everyone responds with talk about the problem with paperless machines, a damn important issue but here it would appear that they avoided these machines, perhaps thinking they were coming under too much scrutiny. It's the diebold central tabulation machines that are allegedly so easy to hack.

      •  Yes - I did some further analysis . . (4.00)
        It looks like a lot of those counties' data was reversed - that Kerry got Bush's vote count and vice versa.  

        Out of 52 Op-Scan counties, 27 had variances - from the DEM-GOP registrations - of more than 20 percent.  For example, if DEMs led 75-25% in registrations, a 40% variance would put Bush at 65-35%.  Don't laugh!  Look at the numbers.

        21 had variances of over 30 percent.  
        11 had variances of over 40 percent.
        7 had variances of over 50 percent.

        Think about it:  In an election where party loyalty is 88% and higher (a 12% variance or less) all over the country - EVEN IN THE E-VOTING COUNTIES IN FLORIDA - the Op-Scan counties in Florida had variances of over 30 percentage points in 21 out 52 of them.

        Several of those counties were ABOVE 80% Democratic registrations, yet Bush won them with over 60% of the tabulated votes.

        My analysis is available to anyone.  Email is sgtti@joltmail.com (I may regret giving that out!)  It includes a spreadsheet and some additional columns added to the data in the link you point to.

        MAIN POINT #1:

        If you REVERSE the data for those counties, THEY THEN FALL WITHIN A NORMAL RANGE, BASED ON THE VOTER PARTY REGISTRATIONS.

        AND, if you do, KERRY wins Florida - depending on where the line is drawn - at 20%, 25%, etc.

        MAIN POINT #2:

        THERE IS ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO RE-COUNT, AND IF A RE-COUNT HAPPENS, THESE REVERSALS COULD BE CAUGHT AND A PROPER ASSIGNMENT OF VOTES COULD HAPPEN.

        MAIN POINT #3:

        It is possible that some of the closer counties ALSO got reversed.  These would be found in a full re-count.

        MAIN POINT #4:

        IS KERRY FIGHTING FOR THESE VOTES?

        MAIN POINT #5:

        If these counties are reversed, the  all this crap about "Values" is bullshit.  Kerry would win with 279 Electoral Votes, Bush is repudiated, the world goes back to some semblance of sanity, Kerry battles a GOP Congress for four years, and KERRY GETS TO NAME THE NEW SUPREME COURT MEMBERS.

        CONTACT YOUR CONGRESSSMAN.

        CONTACT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

        GET THIS OUT THERE.  EVERY DAY THAT GOES BY IS TIME THEIR LAWYERS WILL FRITTER AWAY IN COURT, JUST LIKE IN 2000.

    •  Here's the bright BLUE flame ... (none)
      Click on this now and listen to Mike Malloy on Air America Radio.

      If you are interested in this diary.

      If you are interested in democratic elections for us, like in Venezuela.

      If you smell something rotten emenating from Florida, Ohio, New Mexico ... etcetera ...

      If you are not a milquetoast, ie, you demand your vote and mine be counted, nothing, I repeat, NOTHING, makes for better background as you sit before your computer right NOW ... than ...

      Mike Malloy

      They are replaying his RANT from the night after the selection. It is solid GOLD. He gets it and he is relentlessly making the case that we must too. Or we are sunk even deeper.

      The rug is unravelling beneath our feet as we type.

      ACT.

  •  Recommended! (none)
    Great Job!
  •  We're always.... (4.00)
    being accused of being "the party of the trial lawyers". Let's make it a reality for the time being. We need to get to the bottom of this scandal. Even if it changes nothing this year we need to do it so that our supporters aren't disenfanchized.
  •  EVIDENCE (3.72)
    can these people  Jeff Fisher and the people at blackboxvoting.org at least give us some proof of their evidence before we all jump on this bandwagon?

    I don't want to be killed here, I just think we should support these causes after we make sure there is something to support.  I don't want to look like an idiot if I support this voter fraud charge and then find out these people didn't really have any proof.

    •  Agreed (none)
      The Hartmann article is good, but full of supposition and conspiracy theory.  What is that proof Jeff Fisher has?  Hopefully it's legitimate and the FBI is following up on it.

      Is there any way we can further the Wexler-Nadler-Conyers request of an inquiry, to make sure it happens?

      Got a gun, fact I got two. That's OK man, cause I love God -- Pearl Jam

      by Muboshgu on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 03:24:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  nh is cited as an example of bbv over at DU, but (none)
      but i know that nh has paper ballots.  some of the evidence cited seems flawed. b4 crying tabulation fraud let us get out facts straight.  
      •  Trolls offering easily discreditable criticism (none)
        are everywhere, as preemptive deterrence of legitimate criticism.

        Trolls are not limited to dKos and online venues.

        Neither of the above two facts need dissuade real investigation and real discussion of in-progress analysis.

        Those with the skills and motivation to audit election results are probably very cautious about the quality of their conclusions, unless they wish to deter others from auditing.

      •  facts like more votes for president... (none)
        than voter turn out? What more do you need for crying out loud?
  •  Agreed . . . (none)
    and REOMMENDED!!!  We MUST STAND UP to these lying, cheating, stealing, conniving, corrupt bastards -- even if it does not yield the result we want, and probably DID GET (i.e., a President-Elect Kerry.) Who the hell cares what they say????  Are we going to live our lives afraid of the conservative echo chamber, or ARE WE GOING TO TAKE ACTION AND BLOW THE LID OFF THIS THING for the sake of our party, our country, our democracy and our world (who by the way, absolutely HATES Bush)?????  
    •  Fuck Yah - (none)
      They cheated - we all know it. Why else would a Gov agree to ballots with no paper trail? I just hope it comes out.

      "I will never accept an analysis that says a leader who stands for equality and fairness and who has the courage of his convictions is doing the wrong thing."

      by CrazyDem on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 04:34:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  And a map for your info (4.00)

    DRE touchscreens = red
    Diebold = blue

    "Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right" - Carl Schurz

    by RBH on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 02:44:45 PM PST

    •  yes, but is there a correlation (none)
      between whether DRE/Diebold machines were used in a county, vs. paper ballots, and what the actual results-exit polls differential is.

      There are so many numbers flying by, that it is getting hard to "jump on the bandwagon" as someone's comment said.

      I am not trying to troll around here, just saying that someone with the bandwidth needs to summarize all this and demonstrably show results, at same time sourcing all the data they have used so others can double check/peer review.

      This is a critical issue. Can someone - Kos, DNC, anyone organize a structured effort to pull all this information together so it can be presented to the media (as long as the data does suggest election discrepancies).

    •  Suspicious (none)
      Those are nearly county by county the democratic counties in red right there. Specially looking the senate race Martinez vs Castor
    •  Not just diebold (none)
      ES&S is just as bad. In case this helps anyone look here is a list of the system every county has...and results of 2000 and 2004 and not real math...just a loss or gain in overall percentage between the two years. I also made notes of past problems for many but didn't include them as this is more then long enough.

      Alachua County Detail:
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based  Diebold Election Systems Model: AccuVote-ES2001B  
      Bush -6 Kerry/Gore +1
      2000
      GORE  47,380 55%
      BUSH 34,135 49%
      2004
      Kerry  62,348 56%
      Bush 47,615 43%

      Baker County Detail:
      Optical Scan: Sequoia Voting Systems, Inc.
      Model: Optech 3P Eagle  Software: Release 1 Revs: c.07 and c.08
      Firmware: v.1.30
      Bush +8 Kerry/Gore -7
      2000
      GORE 2,392 29%
      BUSH  5,611 69%
      2004
      Bush  7,738 77%
      Kerry  2,180 22%

      Bay County Detail:
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based Vendor: (ES&S)
      Bush +5 Kerry/Gore -3
      2000
      GORE 18,873 32%
      BUSH  38,682 66%
      2004
      Bush 53,305 71%
      Kerry  21,034 28%

      BRADFORD  
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based  Vendor: (ES&S) Model: Model 100  
      Bush +8 Kerry/Gore -5
      2000
      GORE 3,075 35%
      BUSH   5,416  62%
      2004
      Bush 7,553 70%
      Kerry  3,244 30%

      Brevard County Detail:
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based  Diebold
      Bush +4 Kerry/Gore -3
      2000
      GORE 97,341 45%
      BUSH 115,253 53%
      2004
      Bush 152,838 58%
      Kerry  110,153 42%

      Broward County Detail  
      E-Voting: Touchscreen Vendor:. (ES&S) Model: iVotronic  Firmware: 7.4.5.0
      Bush +4 Kerry/Gore -3
      2000
      GORE 387,760 67%
      BUSH 177,939  31
      2004
      Kerry  443,535 64% 99% of precincts reporting
      Bush  238,397 35%

      Calhoun county: Diebold op scan
      Bush +7 Kerry/Gore -6
      2000
      GORE 2,156 42%
      BUSH 2,873 56%
      2004
      Bush 3,780 63% 100%
      Kerry 2,116 36%

      Charlotte County Detail:  
      E-Voting: Touchscreen . (ES&S) Model: iVotronic  
      Bush +3 Kerry/Gore -1
      2000
      GORE 29,646 44%
      BUSH  35,428  53%
      2004
      Bush 44,402 56%
      Kerry 34,227 43%

      Citrus County Detail:
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based  Diebold
      Bush +5 Kerry/Gore -3
      2000
      GORE 25,531 45%
      BUSH 29,801  52%
      2004
      Bush 39,496 57%
      Kerry 29,271 42%

      Clay County Detail:  
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based  Election Systems and Software, Inc. (ES&S)
      Bush +3 Kerry/Gore -3
      2000
      GORE  14,668 26%
      BUSH 41,903  73%
      2004
      BusH  61,881 76%
      Kerry 18,905 23%

      Collier County Detail:  
      E-Voting: Touchscreen Vendor:ES&S
      Model: iVotronic  Software: 4.2 Firmware: 7.4.5.0
      Bush -3 Kerry/Gore +1
      2000
      GORE 29,939 33%
      BUSH 60,467  66%  
      2004
      Bush 82,493 65%
      Kerry 43,277 34%

      Columbia County Detail:  
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based  Diebold Model: AccuVote-ES2001B  Software: 1.17.17 Firmware: 1.94-w
      Bush +8 Kerry/Gore -6
      2000
      GORE 7,049 38%
      BUSH 10,968  59%
      2004
      Bush 16,753 67%
      Kerry  8,029 32%

      DE SOTO op-scan
      Bush +3 Kerry/Gore -2
      2000
      GORE  3,321 43%
      BUSH  4,256  55%  
      2004
      Bush 5,510 58%
      Kerry  3,910 41%

      Dixie County Detail:
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based  Diebold Election Systems Model: AccuVote-ES2001B  
      Bush +9 Kerry/Gore -9
      2000
      GORE  1,827 39%
      BUSH 2,697  58%
      2004
      Bush 4,433 69%
      Kerry  1,959 30%

      Duval County Detail:
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based Diebold AccuVote-ES2001B  Software: 1.17.17 Firmware: 1.94-w
      Bush +0 Kerry/Gore 1
      2000
      GORE  108,039 41%
      BUSH 152,460  58%
      2004
      Bush 218,476 58%
      Kerry 157,624 42%

      Escambia County Detail:
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based (ES&S)
      Bush +2 Kerry/Gore -1
      2000
      GORE  40,990 35%
      BUSH 73,171  63%
      2004
      Bush  93,311 65%
      Kerry  48,207 34%

      Flagler County Detail:  
      Voting Technology: Optical Scan: Precinct-Based  Diebold Election Systems
      Bush +4 Kerry/Gore -3
      2000
      GORE  13,897 51%
      BUSH 12,618 47%
      2004
      Bush 19,624 51%
      Kerry  18,563 48%

      Franklin County Detail:  
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based  (ES&S) Model: Model 100  
      Bush +6 Kerry/Gore -4
      2000
      GORE 2,047 44%
      BUSH 2,454  53%
      2004
      Bush 3,472 59%
      Kerry  2,400 40%

      Gadsden County Detail:
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based Vendor:  Election Systems and Software, Inc. (ES&S)
      Bush -2 Kerry/Gore +4
      2004
      GORE  9,736 66%
      BUSH 4,770 32%
      2004
      Kerry 14,610 70%
      Bush 6,236 30%

      Gilchrist County Detail:  
      Optical Scan Vendor:  Diebold Election Systems Model: AccuVote-ES2001B  
      Bush +9 Kerry/Gore -6
      2000
      GORE 1,910 35%
      BUSH 3,300 61%
      2004
      Bush 4,930 70%
      Kerry  2,015 29%

      Glades county: Dieboldop scan
      Bush +4 Kerry/Gore -2
      2000
      GORE  1,442  43%
      BUSH 1,841  55%
      2004
      Bush 2,437 58%
      Kerry  1,712 41%

      Liberty County Detail:  Election Official Contact  
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based (ES&S)
      Bush +9 Kerry/Gore -6
      2000
      GORE  2,398 39%
      BUSH 3,553 58%
      2004
      Bush 5,972 67%
      Kerry  2,929 33%

      Hamilton County Detail:  
      Optical Scan: (ES&S)
      Bush +1 Kerry/Gore +2
      2000
      GORE  1,723 43%
      BUSH  2,147  54%
      2004
      Bush 2,787 55%
      Kerry  2,258 45%

      Hardee county: Dieboldop scan
      Bush +10 Kerry/Gore -8
      2000
      GORE  2,342 38%
      BUSH  3,765 60%
      2004
      Bush 5,047 70%
      Kerry  2,147 30%

      Hendry County
      Optical Scan: (ES&S) Model: Model 100 Software: Release 4.2
      Bush +1 Kerry/Gore +1
      2000
      GORE 3,240 40%
      BUSH 4,747 58%
      2004
      Bush 5,756 59%
      Kerry  3,960 41%

      Hernando county: Diebold op scan
      Bush +3 Kerry/Gore -1
      2000
      GORE 32,648 50%
      BUSH 30,658 47%  
      2004
      Bush 41,847 53%
      Kerry  36,251 46%

      Highlands County
      Optical Scan:  (ES&S) Model: Model 100  
      Bush +4 Kerry/Gore -3
      2000
      GORE  14,169 40%
      BUSH 20,207 58%
      2004
      Bush 25,874 62%
      Kerry  15,346 37%

      Hillsborough County Detail:  
      E-Voting: Touchscreen
      Sequoia Voting Systems, Inc. Model: AVC Edge  
      Bush +3 Kerry/Gore -1
      2000
      GORE 169,576 47%
      BUSH 180,794 50%
      2004
      Bush 243,816 53%
      Kerry  212,749 46%

      Holmes county: ES&S Optech
      Bush +9 Kerry/Gore -7
      2000
      GORE 2,177 29%
      BUSH  5,012  68%
      2004
      Bush 6,410 77%
      Kerry 1,810 22%

      Indian River County Detail:  
      E-Voting: Touchscreen Sequoia Voting Systems, Inc. Model: AVC Edge  
      Bush +2 Kerry/Gore -1
      2000
      GORE 19,769 40%
      BUSH 28,639  58%  
      2004
      Bush 36,744 60%
      Kerry  23,850 39%

      Jackson County Detail
      Optical Scan:(ES&S) Model: Model 100  
      Bush +5 Kerry/Gore -4
      2000
      GORE 6,870 42%
      BUSH   9,139  56%
      2004
      Bush 12,092 61%
      Kerry  7,529 38%

      Jefferson County Detail:  
      Optical Scan: Diebold Model: AccuVote-ES2001B  Software: 1.17.17
      Bush 0 Kerry/Gore +1
      2000
      GORE 3,041 54%
      BUSH 2,478  44%
      2004
      Kerry  4,133 55%
      Bush 3,298 44%

      Lafayette County Detail
      Optical Scan: ES&S) Model: Model 100  
      Bush +7 Kerry/Gore -6
      2000
      GORE 789 32%
      BUSH 1,670 67%
      2004
      Bush 2,460 74%
      Kerry  845 26%

      Lake County Detail:  
      E-Voting: Touchscreen (ES&S) Model: iVotronic  
      Bush +4 Kerry/Gore -2
      2000
      GORE  36,571 41%
      BUSH 50,010 56%
      2004
      Bush 74,382 60%
      Kerry  48,216 39%

      Lee County Detail:
       E-Voting: Touchscreen (ES&S) Model: iVotronic  
      Bush +2 Kerry/Gore -1
      2000
      GORE 73,571 40%
      BUSH 106,151 58%
      2004
      Bush 144,414 60%  
      Kerry  94,365 39%

      Leon County Detail:
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based  Diebold Election Systems Model: AccuVote-ES2001B  
      Bush -1 Kerry/Gore +2
      2000
      GORE 61,444 60%
      BUSH  39,073  38%
      2004
      Kerry  79,591 62%  
      Bush 47,902 37%

      Levy County Detail
      Optical Scan: Diebold Election Systems
      Bush +9 Kerry/Gore -6
      2000
      GORE  5,398 42%
      BUSH 6,863  54%
      2004
      Bush10,406 63%
      Kerry  6,072 36%

      Liberty County Detail
      Optical Scan:.(ES&S)
      Bush +8 Kerry/Gore -7
      2000
      GORE  1,017 42%
      BUSH 1,317  55%
      2004
      Bush 1,927 64%
      Kerry  1,070 35%

      Madison County Detail:
      Optical Scan: Diebold Election Systems
      Bush +2 Kerry/Gore 0
      2000
      GORE  3,015 49%
      BUSH 3,038 49%
      2004
      Bush 4,195 51%
      Kerry  4,048 49%

      Manatee County Detail
      Optical Scan: Diebold Election Systems Model: AccuVote-ES2001B  
      Bush +4 Kerry/Gore -2
      2000
      GORE 49,226  45%
      BUSH 58,023  53%
      2004
      Bush 81,272 57%
      Kerry  61,228 43%

      Marion County Detail:
      Optical Scan:(ES&S) Model: Model 100  
      Bush +4 Kerry/Gore -3
      2000
      GORE 44,674 44%
      BUSH 55,146  54%
      2004
      Bush 81,267 58%
      Kerry  57,255 41%

      Martin County Detail:  
      E-Voting: Touchscreen (ES&S) Model: iVotronic  
      Bush +2 Kerry/Gore -1
      2000
      GORE 26,621 43%
      BUSH 33,972 55%
      2004
      Bush 41,458 57%
      Kerry  30,188 42%

      Monroe county: Diebold
      Bush +2 Kerry/Gore +1
      2000
      GORE 16,48749%
      BUSH  16,063  47%
      2004
      Kerry  19,646 50%
      Bush 19,457 49%

      Miami-Dade County Detail:
      E-Voting: Touchscreen (ES&S) Model: iVotronic  
      Bush +0 Kerry/Gore +1
      2000
      GORE 328,867 53%
      BUSH  289,574  46%
      Miami-Dade
      Kerry  385,023 54% 99% of precincts
      Bush 329,339 46%

      Nassau County Detail:
      E-Voting: Touchscreen ES&S) Model: iVotronic
      Bush +4 Kerry/Gore -3
      2000
      GORE  6,955  29%
      BUSH 16,408  69%
      2004
      Bush 23,726 73%
      Kerry  8,543 26%

      Okaloosa County Detail
      Optical Scan: Diebold Election Systems Model: AccuVote-ES2001B  
      Bush +4 Kerry/Gore -2
      2000
      GORE16,989 24%
      BUSH 52,186  74%
      2004
      Bush 69,320 78% 100%
      Kerry  19,276 22%

      Okeechobee County Detail
      Optical Scan: Diebold Model: AccuVote-ES2001B  Software: 1.17.17 Firmware: 1.94-w  
      Bush +6 Kerry/Gore -4
      2000
      GORE 4,589 47%
      BUSH 5,057  51%
      2004
      Bush 6,975 57%
      Kerry  5,150 43%

      Orange County Detail
      Optical Scan:(ES&S) Model: Optech 3P Eagle  Software: 5
      Bush +2 Kerry/Gore 0
      2000
      GORE 140,236 50%
      BUSH 134,531  48%
      2004
      Kerry  192,030 50%  
      Bush 191,389 50%

      Osceola County Detail:  
      Optical Scan: Diebold Election Systems Model: AccuVote-ES2001B  Software: 1.17.17
      Bush +6 Kerry/Gore -4
      2000
      GORE 28,187 51%
      BUSH 26,237  47%
      2004
      Bush 42,901 53%
      Kerry  38,430 47%

      Palm Beach county:
      Sequoia AVC Edge Voting E-Touchscreen
      Bush +4 Kerry/Gore -1
      2000
      GORE 269,754 62%
      BUSH 152,964 35%
      2004
      Kerry  325,808 61% 99% of precincts reporting
      Bush 210,580 39%

      Pasco County Detail:
      E-Voting: Touchscreen (ES&S) Model: iVotronic  
      Bush +6 Kerry/Gore -4
      2000
      GORE  69,576 49%
      BUSH 68,607  48%
      2004
      Bush 103,195 54%
      Kerry  84,729 45%

      Pinellas county:
      Sequoia AVC Edge Voting System
      Bush +4 Kerry/Gore -1
      2000
      GORE 200,657 50%
      BUSH 184,849 46%
      2004
      Bush 225,534 50%
      Kerry  225,254 49%

      Polk County Detail:  
      Optical Scan: Diebold Election Systems
      Bush +5 Kerry/Gore -4
      2000
      GORE 75,207 45%
      BUSH 90,310 54%
      2004
      Bush 123,457 59%
      Kerry  85,923 41%

      Putnam County Detail:
      Optical Scan: Diebold Election Systems
      Model: AccuVote-ES2001B  Software: 1.17.17 Firmware: 1.94-w
      Bush +8 Kerry/Gore -6
      2000
      GORE 12,107 46%
      BUSH 13,457 51%
      2004
      Bush 18,303 59%
      Kerry  12,407 40%

      St. Johns County Detail:
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based (ES&S)
      Model: Optech 3P Eagle   Software: 5
      Bush +4 Kerry/Gore -1
      2000
      GORE 19,509  32%
      BUSH 39,564 229  65%
      2004
      Bush 58,802 69%
      Kerry  26,215 31%

      St. Lucie County Detail:
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based Diebold Model: AccuVote-ES2001B   Software: 1.17.17 Firmware: 1.94-w
      Bush +3 Kerry/Gore -1
      (2000
      GORE 41,560 53%
      BUSH 34,705  45%
      3004
      Kerry  51,816 52%
      Bush 47,575 48%

      Santa Rosa County Detail:
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based (ES&S) Model: Optech 3P Eagle  
      Bush +5 Kerry/Gore -3
      2000
      GORE  12,818 25%
      BUSH  36,339  72%
      2004
      Bush 51,952 77%
      Kerry  14,635 22%

      Sarasota County Detail:  
      E-Voting: Touchscreen (ES&S) Model: iVotronic
      Bush +2  Kerry/Gore 0
      2000
      GORE 72,869 45%
      BUSH 83,117 52%
      2004
      Bush 104,446 54%
      Kerry  88,225 45%

      Seminole County Detail
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based  Diebold
      Bush +3 Kerry/Gore -1
      2000
      GORE 59,227 43%
      BUSH 75,790  55%
      2004
      Bush 108,126 58%  
      Kerry  76,938 42%

      Sumter County Detail
      E-Voting: Touchscreen  (ES&S) Model: iVotronic  
      Bush+7 Kerry/Gore -5
      2000
      GORE  9,637 43%
      BUSH 12,127  55%
      2004
      Bush 19,794 62%
      Kerry  11,583 37%

      Suwannee County Detail
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based . (ES&S)
      Bush +7 Kerry/Gore -4
      2000
      GORE 4,076 33%
      BUSH  8,009  64%
      2004
      Bush 11,153 71%
      Kerry  4,521 29%

      Taylor County Detail:
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based  Diebold Model: AccuVote-ES2001B  
      Bush +4 Kerry/Gore -3
      (2000)
      GORE 2,649 39%
      BUSH  4,058 60%
      2004
      Bush 5,466 64%
      Kerry  3,049 36%

      Union County Detail
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based . (ES&S)
      Model: Model 100  Software: Release 4.2
      Bush + 12 Kerry/Gore -10
      2000
      GORE  1,407 37%
      BUSH 2,332  61%
      2004
      Bush  3,396 73%

      Volusia county:
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based  Diebold Bush +4 Kerry/Gore -2
      2000
      GORE 97,313 53%
      BUSH 82,368 45%
      2004
      Kerry  114,986 51%
      Bush 111,263 49%

      Wakulla County Detail
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based Diebold
      op Bush +5 Kerry/Gore -3
      2000
      GORE 3,838 45%
      BUSH 4,512 53%
      2004
      Bush 6,777 58%
      Kerry  4,896 42%

      Walton County Detail:
      Optical Scan: Diebold Election Systems
      Bush +6 Kerry/Gore-5
      2000
      GORE 5,643  31%
      BUSH 12,186 67%  
      2004
      Bush 17,526 73%
      Kerry  6,205 26%

      Washington County  
      Optical Scan: Precinct-Based (ES&S)
      Bush +9 Kerry/Gore -7
      2000
      GORE  2,798  35%
      BUSH 4,995 62%
      2004
      Bush  7,367 71%
      Kerry  2,911 28%

  •  Uggh (4.00)
    "Election night, I'd been doing live election coverage for WDEV, one of the radio stations that carries my syndicated show, and, just after midnight, during the 12:20 a.m. Associated Press Radio News feed, I was startled to hear the reporter detail how Karen Hughes had earlier sat George W. Bush down to inform him that he'd lost the election. The exit polls were clear: Kerry was winning in a landslide. "Bush took the news stoically," noted the AP report.

    But then the computers reported something different. In several pivotal states."

    You cannot tell me that Karen Hughes is relying on the so-called 'liberal media' to give her information about whether or not to tell Bush he lost the fucking election. They were using their own information or the information of someone they trusted implicitly. And they were losing at about midnight (I'll guess EST).

    The only thing that pisses me off about this article is that they heavily suggest foul play but they give no particulars. Who could have hacked the vote? When could they have done it?

    We need evidence like that, not a list of mere anomolies, to make the case that something went terribly wrong here.

    •  asdf (none)
      Who, indeed!  Who benefited from it?
      •  Honestly (3.00)
        That's the bitch of it. It could be literally anyone, from hugely misguided, hyper-partisan citizenry to Bush's campaign staff.
        I'm not ready to paint with that brush yet.

        I am prepared to say the elecetion lost credibility with the deliberate targetting of minorities for disenfranchisement and voter suppression tactics. And, furthermore that the machines we use to tabulate our votes seem to malfunctioned across the country.

        There's no mandate in those ill-gotten advantages.

    •  As Bad as it Gets (4.00)
      Longtime reader and first time blogger here, and I barely know where to begin. I too was stunned in reading that report about Hughes, but then again it explains the shit eating grin Bush had on by the time he'd spoken to Rove and was shown on CNN confidently watching results come in. And it just goes to show how absolutely crooked this whole thing is.

      When John Kerry is heading home to write his victory speech, Bush is being informed he's finished, and when Tony Blair goes to bed thinking the U.S. has a new president - and these are all experienced pols that KNOW the value of exit polls - then that should be all the proof anyone needs.

      Ofcourse, we need more. But I have been continually baffled this week with what's gone on. As I posted on our blog, even normally reliable (and well-informed)left-leaners like Al Franken and Bill Maher are either unaware of the abnormalities or unconvinced.
      And then to see my dream scenario - former President Clinton and not Kerry holding a PC to announce the findings of widespread fraud - go out the window, it's enough to leave you flabberghasted.

      At the end of the day, I don't know what Democrats could possibly think there is to gain by being quote unquote 'statesmen'.
      This was the ultimate battle of Good vs. Evil, and better still the republicans would have had a presumption a guilt in my opinion atleast with the majority of the public after 2000.

      Giving the repubs 4 more years to expand and solidify their apparatus is suicide for Dems, not to mention it just isn't fair - to those who waited forever to vote, to those who believed Kerry (whom I happen to like very much) when he said he'd fight for us, and unfair to the United States and the millions who came before us and died for what this country is supposed to stand for.

      Worse still is now Dems appear to be starting from zero - and they won the freakin' election!
      Despite all of Bush & Cheney's garbage, the people saw through it and sensed we were in big trouble and did the right thing, even if it took 10 hours to cast a ballot.

      How can they ever be expected to come out again?
      Someone should go to Ohio and rip that partisan hack Ken Blackwell's head off. Figuratively speaking, ofcourse.

      •  You have expressed my feelings (none)
        so well and touched all the bases. I really don't get it.

        <"Do not seek the treasure!" >

        by moon in the house of moe on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 03:50:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Mine too (none)
          As a very disappointed Ohio voter, who really thought we had a good candidate and a good chance to win, who watched old ladies spitting at images of Bush...I want to know who ripped us off.  That f'ing Blackwell....
      •  I truly don't get it (4.00)
        You have expressed my sentiments exactly here... why are the democrats rolling over and abandoning their base - minorities, the poor, working poor and middle class and all other disenfranchised and under-represented in this country. They aren't speaking for me anyway, or all the people who stood for hours upon hours in the rain to express their vision of America and cast their vote for President. All the students and African Americans who registered to vote this year and according to all exit polls and news coverage, were coming out in droves.

        The party truly is split - for example, on the main page there is a heated discussion about who should be DNC chair, over 573 comments as of now, while we are talking about the denying of constitutional rights...

        Seems a bit surreal to me. Maybe I'm not a member of the reality-based community after all.

        Jaded Reality... "freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose"

        by spiderleaf on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 05:34:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's been a sore spot for me too (4.00)
          No matter what happened with the vote tabulation - we have confirmed nationwide attempts to disenfranchise and suppress the votes of minorities, certainly, as well as urbanites where the common wisdom is that they were likely to vote for Democrats.

          That alone gave this party a reason to cry foul and hit the warpath. Yet there was a deafening silence from high-ranking Democrats and party officials. I honestly don't get it. I keep waiting for them to pop up and say, "We've got the bastards by the short hairs." Weeks and days have passed - nothing, for the second presidential election in a row.

          I just don't understand why that is, but it's starting to make me very nervous about my party's commitment to its people and their civil rights.

          I hope I'm just being emotional. I hope they're working on some grand "Gotcha!" for the GOP. But I'm starting to lose my faith in it. That's got me upset.

          •  Me too... (none)
            It's getting increasingly difficult for me to sit here and say "I'm proud to be a Democrat". I've harbored a bit of ill will towards Ralph the last 4 years, but at least he has the guts to openly question the vote in NH.

            Where are all the leaders - political and civil? Are they preparing a huge surprise for all of us not-in-the-loop people? Is all the talk of "getting on with it" and "they weren't really as bad as we made it out to be" just a big smoke screen?

            I really, truly hope so. Otherwise I feel a long dark winter coming on. And the need for a true grassroots "third way".

            I hope I'm just being bitter and cynical. But I fear not.

            Jaded Reality... "freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose"

            by spiderleaf on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 07:08:06 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  I figure what happened on election day was... (4.00)
      The last polls before the election were trending Kerry.  Zogby seemed pretty sure Kerry was going to win, and even Fox polls were trending Kerry.  The exit polls throughout Election day were going to Kerry big, just as we at Kos had expected.  I mean, we were celebrating near-victory this past week as news event after news event fell against Bush and no October surprise materialized.  We were walking on air.

      There were those reports about the Bush camp being gloomy, the lore from supposedly inside sources that Cheney was cussing out Rove for blowing the election.  And now we have the report that Karen Hughes told Bush he was losing.

      Then Karl Rove disappeared for a while, making calls.  Bush made some calls.  The numbers began to change.  Rove said "we won Ohio and Florida" before all the votes were in.  (I know, I was following the election returns county by county and the big urban counties and minorities areas were coming in very very slow -- how did they know that these Kerry counties wouldn't tip things the other way?)

      Of course they cheated.  They cheated in 2000, I believe they cheated in 2002, and they had Diebold's promise that their system could be and would be gamed.

      The Bush camp was sweating bullets.  Why?  Because the high turn-outs and exit polls were showing a bigger Kerry victory they had anticipated even in their worst case scenarios.  The graphs from states like Pennsylvania and other swing states that went Kerry show a big exit poll for Kerry, then a Kerry margin by a more narrow margin.  The cheats they had planned ahead of time weren't big enough to counter Kerry's big leads.  They could reduce the margins but not turn the actual outcomes.  We are goddamn fortunate that Kerry's big win (which so many of us had predicted) ensured that so many states did go blue, even after being gamed.  The arrogance of the Bushies had planned for a victory, but not a blow-out.

      That's when they started sweating bullets.  That's when the final cheats were put in for Ohio and Florida.

      The "mandate" speeches that Bush has been making were probably written in outline before the election.  They "knew" they were going to win, but they misunderestimated, as they say, just how fucking amazing Kerry was going to do.

      Sure, this may be no more than just a fantasy on my part to help me accept Kerry's defeat.  One of the sole comforts of this past week has been the picture in my mind of Bush really feeling how badly he was going to lose, or would have lost, if they hadn't goosed those final two or three states.

      At this point, I'm pretty much in acceptance stage that we WILL have Bush to kick around for four more years of catastrophic "successes," flight suits and bulges and chimpy faces, four more years of building building building our resistance.

      But regardless of whether Kerry will ever be in the White House (which I doubt at this point), it is crucial to continue the investigations and to count the votes and study the hell out of what they did to us...AGAIN.

      Because if they don't, they will win bigger and bigger every single time for the rest of our natural lives, no matter if we have Jesus Buddha Moses Christ running a perfect Democratic campaign "on message" or not.  Because they cheating skills will be perfected and polished to a blinding sheen.  We will never win another election unless we make sure the sanctity of the vote is withheld.

      I wrote to my senators and Congressman earlier this week, asking not for a Kerry victory but for the reassurance that every vote would be fairly counted, upon fear of an increasing irrelevant voting populace.

      Don't make this about Kerry winning.  Make this about validating our votes, protecting our future votes, and our ensuring our democracy continues.  

      The story is not just that Republicans cheated.  More than half the country is going to think we're tin-hat-wearing unless we have the proof.  The story should be that the American public needs to be reassured that the votes are fair, or dissent and chaos will ensure that the American people will no longer own their own voices.

      Liberals are conservatives who have been through treatment.

      by marjo on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 04:18:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Your scenario (none)
        makes perfect sense to me.  It's exactly what I've been thinking as well.

        " I went to war for George W. Bush; I came home to vote for John Kerry." - Sam Poulton

        by whometense on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 04:23:01 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, and I also agree (none)
          that I don't expect this to end with Kerry in the White House either, much as I would LOVE to see that happen.  I do think we cannot let go of this bone, though.  We have to be able to trust in the process.

          How about a Democratic Secretary of State in each state?  That would be a satisfying achievement. </snark>

          " I went to war for George W. Bush; I came home to vote for John Kerry." - Sam Poulton

          by whometense on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 04:27:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You bring up an excellent issue (none)
            Why in the hell are Secretaries of State partisan positions in the first place?

            Shouldn't they be something more akin to political eunuchs? Christ, having it this way (with the added burden of holding virtually unauditable elections) just invites an errosion of confience in the process.

      •  I think you're right (none)
        Certainly about this nation being Bush's to kick around for the next four. Networks calling the election in favor of Bush (again) essential sent the jury out in the court of public opinion. Kerry's SOL for the presidency.

        But we've still got the right to know whether our elections are an accurate reflection of this public's will, and, I believe, a duty to satisfy whatever nagging doubts we have before another election gets underway.

      •  asdf (none)
        At first I thought this was all just sour grapes.  After all, who would change votes?  Who would commit a serious felony?  Who would take the chance?  Who would dare?  Well, when you take into consideration that the  POTUS is the most powerful man in the world, I guess a lot of people would lie,cheat, steal and even kill for that prize.  
      •  You're wrong (4.00)
        If this is true and they do find real evidense the vote was hacked, it will be as big as watergate. Everyone was expecting Kerry to win, like the exit polls, so it's possible that there will be a scandal and Kerry can get in.

        The democrats are doing what they have to. They can't be in public now talking about how they won't conceed because the vote was hacked. If the find hard evidence, that's when they come out.

        •  But let's not forget... (none)
          Watergate gave us Ford, not McGovern... Good lord, that would be the worst scenario imaginable.. Election fraud gives Bush the election and Darth Cheney the presidency!

          Osama's followers think he has "moral values" too.

          by ragnark on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 07:25:46 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Poor analogy... (none)
            Agnew resigned in 1973, for reasons unrelated to Watergate.  Ford became VP.  Then, Nixon resigned, and Ford assumed the presidency.  Ford wasn't on the 1972 GOP ticket, and couldn't have been held responsible for anything related to Watergate.

            This year, both Bush and Cheney would have "won" their jobs due to fraud, so both would be out in the event of substantive proof of fraud.

        •  I keep telling people over and over (none)
          Dennis Hastert is destined to become President.  

          After all, Speaker of the House is 3d in line to the Presidency, and will be after Bush & Cheney resign.

          Does anyone know what the exact procedure is to get the FBI investigating?  Anyone have enough money to hire private detectives to start the process of evidence gathering?  Someone is going to talk and they'll only be more likely to stay quiet as time goes on.  

          We need to get state legislatures to have experts look at the software of computerized voting machines and see if there are any bizarre programs designed to add votes.  I don't know enough about software to see how this can be done but I'm betting it is possible.

      •  A 4 (none)
        Only because I can't give you a 5!

        Black boxes are for airplanes, not democracy. Make the vote counters accountable www.blackboxvoting.org

        by doug r on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 06:58:06 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I Agree (none)
        Even though we all know they cheated and Kerry was the true elected president, we need to make this about validating and protecting our vote.  

        This is a cause all parties should be able get behind - saving our democracy.  Without a fair and transparent voting procedure, we cannot have democracy.  

        50% of the voting population believe that there is a lack of integrity in our voting system and doubt that their vote will be accurately reflected in the final tally.  That voter confidence drops to 38% in Florida.  

      •  Absolutely right about this not being about Kerry (none)
        winning. It has to be about the voters. Remember, right after the election, the media kept telling us the young voters "let us down." Well the numbers are coming in, and they exceeded expections - even when waiting in line to vote 5 - 10 hours.
        This is supposed to be the greatest democracy in the world. NOWHERE in this country should the wait be that long. That's automatic disenfranchisement.
        Ballot manipulations not only "fix" election results; they're engineered to discourage voting...it will just make it that much easier to corrupt the voting system when fewer people participate.
        If this issue is trumpeted, the disappointed / discouraged ones may be encouraged to vote again.
        This has to be fixed!
      •  Where can I get one of those... (none)
        ..tinfoil hats?  I want to wear one, big time, especially when I'm out walking my yellow dog.

        If doubting the fairness of this election makes me wacko, then I want to advertise it!

      •  Rove on Fox today (none)
        "I was on Air Force One, and we were literally on final approach into Andrews," Rove said on "Fox News Sunday." "The phone connection kept cutting out. I was holding a piece of paper on my knee, trying to scribble it down, holding the phone in the other hand. I got sick as I wrote them down, and then when I looked at them, I got angry, because they simply could not be true."

        "I mean, it had us 19 points down in Pennsylvania. It had us 17 points down in New Hampshire. It had us 1 point up in Virginia," Rove said. "I mean, you looked at these numbers, and you realize, this is just insane."

        http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=703&e=2&u=/ap/20041107/ap_o n_el_pr/rove_election_wrap

        "As individual fingers we can easily be broken, but all together, we make a might fist" Watanka Tatanka (Sitting Bull)

        by wild salmon on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 01:13:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  The same laws of statistical probabilities (none)
      that Republicans were using to tell Kerry that he should concede Ohio can be used to show to what degree fraud might have occurred in the election.

      I don't know how many people realize that those DNA tests that prosecutors trot out in criminal cases to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and which the public treats as gospel many times are nothing more than statistical probabilities.  So anyone here saying statistical probabilities alone can't be good evidence is simply not very well informed about the laws of evidence.

      •  true but ... (none)
        I didn't say try the repugs for cheating based on the statistical evidence, but I do say the evidence is overwhelming enough and certainly sufficient cause to ask to count the ballots. p < .01 is pretty strong correlation people.
      •  Amen- someone actually understands (4.00)
        the rules of evidence and probablity. This is nice to see (I know off topic- but all this well y ou haven't shown any evidence is bizzare to me). I got to say some of you would be a defense attorney's dream b/c of what you say about well not enough to proceed. I mean  you need significantly less evidence to convince a grand jury to take a man to trial than you've got here. What you have here is enough to proceed with continuing investigations. Which by the way so far is all I have heard anyone advocate. What side precisely are you folks on who keep arguing against investigation? What purpose could non investigation serve to finding out the truth. The long we wait, the harder it will be to put together the evidence you keep requesting. I mean how do you think investigations happen for god sake?
        •  asdf (none)
          My only hesitation is that whomever inherits this presidency is doomed to failure.  I'm of two minds:  (1)  If Kerry legitimately won, he should be president, but the actual presidency itself will be a game he can't win.  Too much mess that can't be cleaned up. On the other hand, I'd feel safer if Kerry were at the helm.   (2)  Regardless of who legitimately won, let Bush clean up his own messes, which he can't, and it will do irreputable damage to the GOP.  Looking at the little picture vs. the big picture.  Then on the third other hand (LOL) if Kerry actually won the presidency and the GOP commited fraud, i.e., felony,  it would be such a scandal that it very well might destroy the GOP without us having to suffer through 4 more years.  
  •  Seems to be mounting (4.00)
    Hartmann, who is a major media person,  indicates that Fischer has unimpeachable proof.  Everything seems to point to the damn central tabulation software.  

    We hold these truths to be self evident... All men are created equal...

    by Calee4nia on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 02:46:18 PM PST

    •  Is it just the (none)
      OptiScan central machines or can the Optiscan preceinct tabulation machines be interfered with as well? What I mean is, is the information on their drives uploaded or dialed into a central databank too?
      •  Don't Know (none)
        Fisher doesn't say what the hard evidence is, but he does say that he knows the method and who did it.  Hartmann then discusses the central tabulation software, which seems to point that out as the secret to unravelling this mess.

        We hold these truths to be self evident... All men are created equal...

        by Calee4nia on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 02:53:48 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Roger that (none)
          Thanks. We've got both types turning in strong down-ticket support for local Dems but bailing on Kerry here in Colorado. I was just wondering if both kinds of machines were equally vulnerable or if it demonstrated a genuine lack of confidence in Kerry/Edwards.
        •  Why do they just keep saying they have proof (none)
          SHOW IT.  If we have a reason to fight then show us.  Otherwise they need to stop leading us on like this.

          Sorry - I'm just frusrated with all of the talk from these people, like Black box voting, with nothing to back it up.  

          When your opponent is drowning, throw the son of a bitch an anvil. - James Carville

          by sgilman on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 03:50:51 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's frustrating (4.00)
            But here's the hard thing about this kind of bombshell:

            If Kerry, Fisher, MoveOn, ACT, Black Box or anyone else has any information that's credible, they sure as hell aren't going to come and post it on a public website.

            It's frustrating, but let's think what Karl Rove would do if the roles were reversed: He'd use some outlier 'news sources' to leak small smatterings into the Republican blogosphere, just enough to keep the angry, attentive voters aware that there just might be something out there, while he worked with the power players to get his assault ready.

            He wouldn't just call up every AP outlet and blog and say 'I was robbed.'

            And neither would Kerry. So we don't know anything...because we aren't the people who would know. But the army on this and other sites has done a good job keeping the fire going, and actually finding some fraud, such as the 4,000 Bush votes in Ohio and 4,500 missing votes in NC.

            I hope these guys aren't all blowing smoke, although it's starting to look like New Hampshire, not Ohio or Florida, will be the 'Deep Throat' of the scandal.

            •  NH (none)
              The one thing I can't quite grasp in this whole thing... Isn't it "stick-up-ass" Ralph Reed (Christian Coalition dude) who's calling for recount nonsense in NH?  It seems very strange to me unless they're trying to overthrow Lynch.  (Although NH probably did have fraud.. 17% lead in exit polling [for Kerry!] got cut down to a miniscule lead at the end of the day... Daniel Webster's ghost does not approve)... but even still, why the hell is Ralph Reed of all people contesting (not to mention he was the southwest BC'04 coordinator.. last I checked, I'm from the northeast)!

              Osama's followers think he has "moral values" too.

              by ragnark on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 07:43:11 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  In Oklahoma the Optiscan results (none)
        are tabulated at the precinct, posted there, then delivered to the BOE.

        I don't know if that's how it's done in Fl. but if it is, each machine would have to have been tampered with.

    •  Argh please don't use unimpeachable proof (none)
      I can't get of my mind Dan Rather saying that about the idiotic reports of the emperor at the National Gard.
  •  asdf (none)
    First post here (so be gentle), but is it possible senior republicans don't / didn't know about hacks which may have been done by hackers / manufacturers?
    •  I would say (none)
      not just possible but also probable. We just have no way of knowing that stuff, but if history is any reliable guide to misconduct on behalf of government officials - the element of plausible deniability is pretty crucial to keeping the public figures out of prison.
    •  Rove surely knew... (none)
      Read post above about "senario" where everyone knows Bush is losing, and then Rove disapears into his "war room" for a couple of hours and... presto! Bush is winning.
  •  DRE/Diebold (none)
    where else is Diebold and the DRE touchscreens used?

    this isn't "taking our eyes off the ball" but wouldn't you think they'd also rig local races too?

    "Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right" - Carl Schurz

    by RBH on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 02:53:17 PM PST

  •  This article points to.. (3.00)
    ..the same data that everyone else points to, and that has no real significance other than "quite a few registered Democrats in rural areas in Florida voted for Bush". Which isn't unusual in the south. A better comparison, against 2000 data, was also made, and basically showed the same: rural voters went for Bush.

    Now, it's interesting to see how they got that higher Bush voter turnout in those rural areas, but it doesn't really jump out as "voting fraud".

    Also note that Bush gained a few points across the board in a lot of states (most of them, in fact). That this should happen in Florida isn't so strange.

    •  True (none)
      I'd still like to know why Karen Hughes was using exit polls from the much maligned "liberal media" to base her opinion on, though. Either that or let's hear more about who turned in the report of her telling Bush he'd already lost the race at 12:20am.
      •  both campaigns ran their own exit polls (none)
        and my understading is that the Bush people told Dems that their exit polls showed them losing OH [and I ahve hared at least one tale that theyw ere lsoing FL as well]

        the easiest hack is simply to take the total votes and flip them etween the candidates   -- looking at some of the counties in FL it seesm,, based on registration, as if that might have happened.

        But as Bev Harris demosntrated, it is pretty easy for ANYONE to hack the results at the accumlartor level, bypassing the GEMs software that accumulated the totals from both kinds of opti-scan machines.

        Now, unless the data was backloaded down to every precintc, the original data would still be available, which would rpovide something of an audit trail   More importantly, the actual ballots (paper) that were scanned still exists.

        I'm guessing that Fisher got someone to hand count the ballots at one or precincts and then check totals shown for those precincts at some higher level, and hence can prove (a) that the totals were changed, and (b) at what point in the stream the change occurred.

        Potv e it for even one precinct and you've got the basis for a Federal Court order (opr even a state court order, since elections are conducted by the states) that would impound all equipment and start and exampaination, first on a sample basis, and then if the fraud is reproduced, and an increasingly wider basis.

        If that is what JEFF FISHER has got, then it is bigtime.  It only takes one clear example to start the process rolling.

        Those that can, do. Those that can do more, TEACH!

        by teacherken on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 04:09:04 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Hey, buddy (3.50)
      What about this bit?

      "Fisher has evidence, he says, not only that the Florida election was hacked, but of who hacked it and how."

      How does your post address this in any way, shape, or form?

      Four more years of peace and prosperity---not

      by stunster on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 02:59:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I read that too (none)
        But it doesn't tell us anything, really. Iff he has evidence, he needs to put it on the table instead of using the power of suggestion to carry his claim. Know what I mean?
        I'm not saying he has it or doesn't - but we need to see backup evidence more substantive before going apeshit.
        •  If He Releases It... (none)

          ... I'm betting he knows that whoever's the guilty party will either be able to destroy any proof or will be able to ward off persecution. He probably can't go to the media with it until the FBI's had a shot at it, for risk of spoiling the investigation.

          Its like the media listened to Weird Al's "Dare to be Stupid" and said "Yes! This is how the world should be!"

          by RHunter on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 03:39:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  asdf (none)
            I keep waiting for the military to be testing their new Electro-Magnetic Pulse gun in Florida and "accidentally" hit the warehouse where all the Deibold machines are held.

            You think the strap on my tin-foil hat is too tight?

            Osama's followers think he has "moral values" too.

            by ragnark on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 07:46:26 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Then he should share it. (4.00)
        Lots of people make lots of claims. I don't know how reliable this Fisher guy is. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'll believe it when I see it. I mean, it's strange to me that all the exit polls seemed to be skewed in favor of Kerry. But the scientist in me wants hard evidence, and so far I have not seen any.
        •  Fisher (none)
          If he has called the FBI, maybe he doesn't want to share the names of vote-hackers with the public just at this stage.

          I mean, would you?

          Four more years of peace and prosperity---not

          by stunster on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 03:09:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah, I would... (2.50)
            If he has called the FBI, maybe he doesn't want to share the names of vote-hackers with the public just at this stage. I mean, would you? -stunster

            Yes, I would. I would call the FBI and then I would immediately call all major media outlets in case the local FBI was corrupt and in on the fraud. Fisher either doesn't have proof enough for any reputable media source (hence disreputable CommonDreams running the story) or he's naive (in which case why should we believe his analysis of the "proof" he's "got"). I think Commondreams.org has trumped up Fisher's concerns into "proof" of fraud.

            This is likely nothing. Concentrate on something else (hopefully not another huckster selling you the sort of "snake oil fraud" you want to hear) until Fisher, the FBI, or a major media outlet provides a statement and/or proof on this.

            •  CNN, CBS, MSNBC, or FOX? (none)
              So which of the above do you deign to consider "reputable"? All through the election season the community of DKos was up in arms over the "SCLM" and their slant. Now you suddenly want to wait till they bless this story with a headline?

              Fisher can't risk releasing his evidence prior to handing it over to the FBI. That might taint the investigation, or give those who did do the deed time to cover their tracks.

              As to the "disreputable CommonDreams" I would like to know what they are so disreputable for? They re-publish from all sorts of major news sources. Few if any of their items are even directly printed via CommonDreams. Yes Thom Hartman happens to have written directly for them this time, but that doesn't make his analysis wrong. Dick Morris, whom I don't like much is also quoted in the article about his own concerns. I don't think anyone asks that this be taken on faith, but the skepticism here is completely unwarranted. Exit polls aren't like the pre-election polls. They are invariably accurate to the tenth's of %. So, in this most important election with so many electronic voting machines without paper trails they suddenly prove to be completely useless.

              I don't think we can just ignore the likelihood that this election was stolen. Failure to investigate this immediately is tantamount to giving up on democracy itself.

              "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." - FDR

              by Vitarai on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 04:16:53 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  In most cases... (none)
              If you report something to the FBI and they investigate it, you are usually not even allowed to discuss it because you saying something wrong can throw the whole case.  Putting his proof to the media/blogs this early would just be stupid.  We can be patient, if its true we'll find out, if it's untrue we'll also find out.
        •  jeff fisher (3.75)
          ran against mark foley in the 16th district of fl. foley is one of the Bush Bots, If you live in fl and understand FL, then you will know that jax is not a rural area (duval cty has over 1 mil and used optical scanning machines. Was target of major voting disenfranchisement efforts. the 1st of 2 weeks of early voting, there was one polling place for duval, which is the LARGEST FL cty in AREA. This made it almost impossible for the African American community to particioate in early votin, and the result is that they had to rely on voting Novemeber 2nd. At least one of their local precincts had no electricity until late afternoon, so they were told to return later OR they could fill out their ballot, and leave it next to the scanner and the pollworker would INPUT ballot when electricity was restored. Others were flyered or called and given information that their precicnt location had changed. Because they couldn't early vote, very long lines in the african american community resulted in long waits of many hours. People had to leave to meet school age children or go to work. Remember if their children aren't being supervised, they can be arrested or have their children removed from the home (it's called neglect or abandonment here in the state now) THis has been in the planning for a long time. Parents won't take the chance of going to jail because their children are unsupervised, so the leave the polling place.

          republican hypocracy has condemned God and Jesus to be as Dead as our Democracy

          by demnomore on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 04:45:32 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  evidence+hearings (none)
        listen, I am new to this debate but offer something as an option. Can't we get a couple of big dem lawyers to do an investigation? Certainly there is enough evidence for them to make a request for review. If they do get acces and make a find of fraud overwhelmingly in favour of Bush--we should demand a public series of hearings on this that would have the power to call witnesses under oath and demand evidence through disclosure.  If we can't get it--then that's whenI think we all take to the street in the states were it happened. Thousands of Kossaks demanding an open process. But right now dem lawyers need to be following every lead.There is no downside to agressively persuing this. none. nada. just money and troops and lawyers--hell--we got that!  Let's get Greg Palast into a room with some lawyers and hash it out!  we can  not let this go if there is a chance.  It won't make Kerry look bad- just us and who cares?  
      •  evidence+hearings (none)
        listen, I am new to this debate but offer something as an option. Can't we get a couple of big dem lawyers to do an investigation? Certainly there is enough evidence for them to make a request for review. If they do get acces and make a find of fraud overwhelmingly in favour of Bush--we should demand a public series of hearings on this that would have the power to call witnesses under oath and demand evidence through disclosure.  If we can't get it--then that's whenI think we all take to the street in the states were it happened. Thousands of Kossaks demanding an open process. But right now dem lawyers need to be following every lead.There is no downside to agressively persuing this. none. nada. just money and troops and lawyers--hell--we got that!  Let's get Greg Palast into a room with some lawyers and hash it out!  we can  not let this go if there is a chance.  It won't make Kerry look bad- just us and who cares?  
    •  I hate to be called names in here (2.00)
      but LHO acted alone and the Thugs won the election.
    •  come on just look at the numbers! (4.00)
      Of course it's possible and even likely that rural democrats went slightly more towards Bush. But when you look at how outrageously skewed they go towards Bush relative to normal and how they only do it in optical scan counties.

      I hope I'm not ranting here. I've just looked at this data and it seems like near definitive proof of fraud and *certainly reasonal evidence to seek a recount in at least a couple of the counties where the bizarre anomalies occured. I'm willing to bet if they recount any two optical scan counties that at least one will show a radical shift from the published results.

    •  Link to 2000 data? (none)
      I have heard this mentioned several times -- anyone have any hard data on the 2000 results?
    •  what about... (none)
      there being more votes for president than voter turn out? Math you can do yourself.
  •  everyone says they have evidence (2.50)
    and no one shows any. i mean, come on.

    i would jump for joy if the election were reversed, but look, we need some real evidence...

    •  Ah, well (none)
      If I was holding incriminating evidence in a potentially serious criminal investigation, I might not spill it all over the place either.
      •  yeah, maybe so. (none)
        this is pretty nerve racking though. plus these diaries are killing other ones that are more important (in my view), like the pastordan on air america on that scrolled off a while back under recommended diaries like this one.

        i guess what gets me is the way they get people excited without really saying much of anything and thereby occupy slots in the recommended diary list.

        •  I hear you (none)
          .. but, also bear in mind that diaries are recommended because folks are interested in the issue & want to keep it up front. It's easy enough to avoid diaries on subjects you don't care about & promote the others.
          I don't see the voting tech issue going away any time soon in any case. IMO, regardless of potential effects of any inquiries on the election, it's very important that  currently used voting technologies be fully examined. The 'vote fraud' dialogues forward that examination .. &  many folks are looking at the issue seriously for the first time because of the many obvious problems -- continual problems -- surrounding Bush's latest coronation.
      •  Ah, well (none)
        Particularly if you valued your life!
      •  Be afraid (none)
        Fear for their lives is right! How far will these hackers go to cover their tracks?
    •  I agree completely (1.00)
      As I state downthread, Common Dreams pulls this all the time. They enter hearsay into evidence and claim someone (whom they don't quote directly) has definate proof of something (which they don't provide).

      Commondreams is a TERRIBLE news source. They have no standards, they use propaganda, hearsay, and bad statistics as proof and evidence, and they have awful ignorant analysis by people far removed from the actual situation.

      Please don't be taken in again.

      •  Common Dreams (none)
        Common Dreams for the most part posts articles from other news outlets.  You could argue the original sources are poor, or that the selection process is poor or biased, but Common Dreams is not expressing its own opinion but opinions of others it may agree with. The distinction is an important one.
    •  True (none)
      There's still a lot of information being worked, and we don't know what Fisher really has.  What's interesting to me is that Hartmann, who AFAIK is a responsible media person, is reporting this.  

      But as I said in a comment on a different thread, proof of criminal action is a fairly high bar to cross, especially if there are to be any legal challenges.

      We hold these truths to be self evident... All men are created equal...

      by Calee4nia on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 03:40:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hmmm (3.50)
    I gotta admit to initial skepticism about this; I mean, call me naive, but I just couldn't imagine that anyone, even this current bunch of sleaze-o's, would have the balls to tamper with this election only four years after their heist in 2000.  But damn, those counties that are overwhelmingly registered Democrat but overwhelmingly voted Republican!?  I mean, WTF!?!

    stop....what's that sound, everybody look what's going down...

    by ckck94 on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 02:59:19 PM PST

    •  Consider what the current GOP leadership.. (none)
      .. has already done on both the domestic & international stage, & it really isn't too big of a stretch. Happens all the time in those 'other' countries ..
    •  Keep all initial skepticism until NYT reports it (1.57)
      As mentioned (almost literally) everywhere this afternoon, the "counties that are overwhelmingly registered Democrat but overwhelmingly voted Republican" is NOTHING. Southerners still register as Democrats (or stay registered as such) because of the history of the Dixiecrats. But they vote Republican. A diary earlier on this non-existent Floridian registration gap "fraud" was taken down because it was so provably using crap statistics.  Which is too bad, because when it was deleted all the comments showing that no such fraud existent vanished with it.

      This particular meme of fraud sounds scientifically and statistically sound, but it's nonsense, don't buy into it.

      •  I think (4.00)
        people here have been remarkably diligent in vetting information before flying big banners of fraud.
        Truth is, nobody looking at this stuff, county by county, has stated as fact that it can be explained by nothing other than fraud.
        You have no reason to be ashamed of us or our inquiry into this matter.
        •  No they haven't... (2.33)
          Well, perhaps a majority has been diligent about vetting the information, but many (and here I use the example of the diary about registration vs. voting discrepancies that was DELETED because it was so erroneous) are willing to sell anything that sounds good regardless of truth. A quick look at the diaries that have been "recommended" throughout the day that virtually assure fraud has occurred is enough to prove this...

          You're right, no one should be ashamed of inquiry, but shame is a word that could be used for certain diarists consistent playing (and preying) on Kossacks' hopes and fears by bringing all these conjured up fake frauds up either without evidence (the Jeff Fisher case) or with really really bad evidence that consists of mere hearsay, bad statistics, or half-truths (most all other cases).

          •  Well, this is the price we pay (4.00)
            for having freedom of speech and freedom of expression. It's up to each of us to decide what qualifies as sound empirical documentation as opposed to erroneous circumstantial indications.

            There were, I dunno, maybe three of us talking about the fact that there might be some trouble with the numbers, early Wednesday morning. The majority around here said, "Let it go. We just lost. Get used to it." Since then we've found numerous cases where tabulations were, indeed, errant - and in favor of the opponent. I'll stick with the crowd that had the guts to follow their instincts and crunch the numbers while the rest of this crew was crying about how need to yet more soul searching about why we're all such losers.

            The majority of us are doing this as diligently as we can, given our access to information here.

            I mean you no personal disrespect, but the way I figure it, you can help us trouble shoot the data or the assumptions to help us, or you can tune us out. Nobody's holding a gun to your head or this party's collective head to swallow any of this against your better judgement.

            •  Oh please, (1.63)
              you can help us trouble shoot the data or the assumptions to help us, or you can tune us out -Kimberley

              Yes, after tuesday a lot of the numbers seemed odd. People who wanted to "move on" then were a little too eager. But we've (I've) already crunched most of these numbers, they've already been troubleshot, and still despite the debunking people stick to the conspiracy theories! The deleted diary proclaiming fraud in Florida included reams of proof that no fraud existed but these disappeared when the diary was deleted (again, deleted because there was no proof of fraud).  But now we have new theories completely without evidence (Fisher) or worse old theories getting recycled for the third day by new theorists.

              It's not having "guts" anymore to stop grasping at fraud straws. It's easy to believe that we lost because of massive fraud, that's the weak thing to do right now. What's hard is to realize that we just plain lost to Bush. That more people voting for them this time. To think that we've got a lot of work left to do in order to convince all the voters we lost in the past four years and more that we're still the best choice for America. That's what's hard, that's what takes guts. Not the easy world of make believe fraud and conspiracy myths.

              I can't tune you all out because we can't move on and work on 2006 and 2008 until people stop buying into theories (based on bad evidence) that give them what they want to hear instead of the truth.

              •  Right back at ya (4.00)
                "I can't tune you all out because we can't move on and work on 2006 and 2008 until people stop buying into theories (based on bad evidence) that give them what they want to hear instead of the truth."

                That's nonsense.  

                First of all, I doubt very seriously that the DNC is relying on whatever strategizing we do on Kos. Secondly, it's absolutely false that you can't move in that direction without those of us who have committed the weekend to sorting out our issues with the election results.

                You're trying to shame people for daring to challenge the official narrative, with no greater evidence to suggest it is legitimate than some people have used to suggest widespread willful fraud.  

                There are probably 10 news diaries for foscusing on the future - in various strategy and tactical respects - to 1 new diary about election results. Acting like people like me keep you from enjoying the conversations you'd trather be having with like-minded Dems here is, in word, bullshit. I don't have that kind of power, man.

              •  Aye, there's the rub (4.00)
                It's difficult to face the apparent reality that 'we just plain lost to Bush' as long as the integrity of the voting process as a whole is in question.  
              •  Addison is working (none)
                pretty HARD to shoot this down.

                Why not just sit back and wait to see what happens?  Who knows, you might be proven right....but in the meantime - why not just leave this glimmer of hope to the others?

                You're posts are really starting to become a bit overbearing.

              •  So, Addison... (3.50)
                Any explanation for why the exit polls -- historically always accurate -- were so wrong in so many states? In my view, that discrepancy alone is enough to justify further inquiry.

                Not to mention cases such as Ohio where nearly 4000 votes had to be subtracted from Bush's column thanks to an obvious error. We have no idea whether there were more errors -- intentional or not -- until we are allowed to look. The legitimacy of our democracy depends on it.

                •  Exit Polls Not "Always Accurate" (3.33)
                  I've posted this repetitively in various diaries.

                  • 1980, Maryland called for Reagan based at least partly on exit polls, later reversed and called for Carter.

                  • 1988, exit polls show Dukakis winning or even in Maryland, Illinois, Pennsylvania, California. He lost them all.

                  • 1992, Georgia and New Hampshire called for Clinton immediately at 7pm when their polls close. Georgia moved back to "too close to call" before finally going for Clinton by less than a point, New Hampshire only goes for Clinton by 1 point, although the implication of the immediate call was that he had a decisive lead there.

                  • 1996, New Hampshire again, a senate race is called for the democrat, but later is reversed and the republican wins it.

                  Notice New Hampshire has a pattern of showing inflated support for the democrats in exit polls? The fact that there were discrepencies between the exit polls and final results proves nothing--indeed exit polls definitely tend to skew in favor of democrats, and have since they were begun.
              •  2000 and 2004, and looking forward (4.00)
                I never said there is or isn't fraud.  At this point, I don't think any one knows.  Which is precisely the point.  There was enough news about KNOWN problems with electronic voting (Diebold) systems and KNOWN reports of voter disenfrachisement through intimidation, registration and shredding of Dem. registrations, AND hours long lines in predominantly Dem. precincts, etc.  That's not theory-these are FACTS.

                Many of us donated money AND time to these campaign efforts.  I and my husband, for two, will be FAR LESS INCLINED to donate time and money in the future if these problems are not investigated and addressed in the hopes of eliminating them in future elections.  Furthermore, any one who does decide to GOTV in the future will have a pretty hard sales pitch to make for a party that has done NEXT TO NOTHING to make any improvements to a system that systematically disenfranchises so many of its voters.  

                People rallied around the cause in 2000, and evidence has come out which suggests that had a total recount of the state of FLA been completed, no matter how you decide the state of chad, Gore would have one.  People are rallying around the cause now-How many years do you think it will take before people stop rallying around our cause given the fact that apparently no one whom we support financially or otherwise appears to be willing to stick their neck out to clean up this mess?

                Like I said, not saying there was, not saying there wasn't, not saying that Kerry will ever sit in the Oval Office regardless of what's determined...

                HOWEVER, we, as citizens, have a right to demand a thorough investigation into ALL irregularities and allegations for election 2004 which occurred in ANY of the 50 states. Period.  

                •  They still could come through (none)
                  I agree with you that it will be exedingly dissapointing if no major dem players address this as last year. I do believe that at this stage it is politically prudent for the dems to not act like sore losers until the investigative journalism phase is over. So let's keep up the pressure and see what happens.
              •  how have you debunked... (none)
                florida reporting more votes for president than voter turn out?
      •  read that dixiecrat argument (4.00)
        in the other diary - that's some sort of elite northern bias against southerners. you're suggesting people retain their pre-reagan registration?
        i canvassed in florida. what i saw was registered democrats were democrats and kerry supporters.

        hope is on the way!

        by Errol on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 03:22:48 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I will not hold my breath. (none)
        The NYT is one of the most ra-ra of "Bush mandate" outlets right now.  It is spreading the "news" that Bush is the duly elected president and is doing zero to investigate any of this.  AP, CNN and others are running stories on extra votes and electronic irregularities in Ohio-- it hasn't been in the NYTimes yet.  
  •  Stop grasping at straws like this... (3.00)
    Please, this is likely nothing, or Fisher is using as "proof" the same sort of misleading statistical analysis or ignorant "there's no other explanation!" analysis that some on DKos keep using.

    Everyone who cares about what happened should require an actual statement from Fisher, with actual evidence, before they take any of this seriously enough to comment on. Common Dreams is notorious for this sort of "a person (who we won't directly quote) has HARD evidence (which we won't provide)" nonsense and I refuse to be taken in again. Right now, for anyone with sense, this story should be rated at about "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" level as far as I'm concerned, simply a rumor that will easily be found to be untrue.

    So until Jeff Fisher is directly quoted and his supposed proof unveiled, this is unhelpful and hurtful to the Democratic Party's future chances in 2006 and 2008.

    Be patient.

    •  yes, be patient (3.50)
      and let's hear out and review the data that is turning up. No need to shoot it down before we have a chance to fully evaluate it.

      A correlation can be just incidental, but not necessarily, and must be looked into to. Accountability in elections is too important to dismiss concerns so easily.

    •  I agree (none)
      90% of the posts regarding "fraud" in Florida are referencing the democratic registration vs. results spreadsheet compiled by Kathy Dopp.  It is also the main link on Fisher's web page

      www.jefffisherforcongress.com

      which leads me to believe that's the heart of his claims as well.  He also has many links to voter incident reports, which are useful in analyzing process problems which do need to be fixed, but are NOT evidence of fraud.  

      I am keeping my eye on these stories, but nothing convincing has yet come forward.  

      I'm mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take this anymore!

      by MarkinNC on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 08:40:32 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  asdf (none)
    Very interesting, just wish it was reported somewhere other than "Common Dreams."  The plot thickens.
  •  Nope. Same pattern as 2000 (none)
    If you click through the 2000 results, you see that the small Dixiecrat counties often went for Bush by 2:1. Here is the 2000 data for the specific counties Hartmann suggests are upside-down.

    Baker (B,G) (5,620, 2,392)
    Dixie (B,G) (2,697, 1,826)
    Franklin (B,G) (2,454, 2,046)
    Holmes (B,G) (4,985, 2,154)

    There's nothing dramatic here.

    •  and those numbers are proven correct? (3.50)
      For many who question the outcome in 2000...citing numbers from 2000 to prove numbers in 2004 does little.
    •  OK I'm backing off (none)
      OK, as one who has been rather vocal about how alarming this evidence is, I have to admit that after looking at the 2000 results it doesn't look near as fishy anymore. Though the correlation is less dramatic, it would appear that there is some other factor other than opscan involved. The same sight that presented this information at one point did an analysis of 2000 and did the same seperation of counties and pointed out that in fact there did seem to be a 2000 correlation as well. Now they have removed this analysis.
    •  That's unfair. (none)
      The article was particularly damning when comparing the Optiscan counties to the touchscreen counties. What's your explanation for that?

      One Dixiecrat county uses Optiscan, the other uses touchscreen, and the end result is radically different.

      "Ironic points of light Flash out wherever the Just Exchange their messages." W.H. Auden

      by upstate NY on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 07:04:55 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Skeptical, but this is very easy to prove (4.00)
    Just look at the ballots of one or two counties.  If the numbers don't match, or at least come close, game set match.  
  •  I'm sure that John Ashcroft said to the FBI: (3.50)
    "Now you guys hurry on down to Florida and uncover that voting fraud. And I'm recusing myself and putting Fitzgerald from Chicago on this right away."
  •  uhhh... (none)
    This seems to go into more depth regarding Fisher's allegations.  Honestly, though, I can't figure out what the heck it's saying.
    •  oh man (none)
      Sounds like Fisher needs to take of his tinfoil hat.

      Prisons as training grounds for programmers who are going to manipulate the vote? WTF?

      I personally think Florida was stolen, but this garbage doesn't prove anything.

    •  uhhhh... (none)
      Crucial excerpt:

      Mr. Fisher believes Dr. Blass is denying the public this crucial evidence in order to protect Joseph Klock, an attorney who facilitated the release of Dr. Blass' son from an abusive treatment center. Mr. Klock was, coincidentally, the attorney for former congresswoman Katherine Harris who was the Secretary of State during the contested 2000 Florida recount which helped put George W. Bush in the White House.

      "Dr. Blass obtained this information when he was on the staff at Bay Point School," Fisher stated. Bay Point School is a juvenile correctional facility in the Miami area. "I was told the school is a suspected training ground in computer science and programming for juvenile delinquents who manipulate electronic voting, without a true audit trail. It is believed that this activity is taking place not only there but in several schools like these nationwide. If true, then Bay Point School could be the Florida connection."

      Okay, so this really seems like a tin-hat conspiracy theory to me.  I'd love to see some evidence, though.

    •  how the hell did you find that? (3.66)
      why are we looking at a press release from blackbox voting on some site about a radio show with ufo's on the front page? why doesn't blackbox voting have it on its own press release on its site?

      there's something damn weird going on here. we're getting played hard by at least one party.

  •  If Kerry hadn't conceeded (none)
    this would have been THE story for several news cycles and this stuff would have busted WIDE open. Dammit.

    "Conservatism makes no poetry, breathes no prayer, has no invention; it is all memory." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    by reef the dog on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 03:20:15 PM PST

    •  Thank God Kerry conceded when he did (1.57)
      Well, in that case thank God Kerry did concede because "this stuff would have busted WIDE open" and been found by everyone to be complete nonsense and the Democrats would have been tarnished and discredited. None of the various fraud theories passed around over the last few weeks (except the likely accidental +4000 vote count for Bush in Ohio that was corrected) has lasted more than a day in the harsh light of truth and peer review. I, for one, am extraordinarily happy that this pus-filled fraud tumor has not busted wide open and infected the Democrats nationwide...  

      So I say hallelujah! Thank God Senator Kerry conceded before certain factions could force a tin foil hat onto his head!

      •  Favorite recipe for grilled leeks (2.25)
        Clean and trim, then slice 'em in half lengthwise. Steam unitil they're crisp-tender (~3 min.), then brush on some olive oil and brown in a skillet.

        Sauce: 3 Tbsp butter, 1/2 Tsp. spicy mustard, 1 Tsp. lemon juice, chopped chives.

      •  I half agree (none)
        I'm not convinced that all this stuff is tinhattery -- not even close. But I'm convinced that Senator Kerry would come out tarnished and looking like a fool if he personally pursued it and it couldn't be proven (even if it was, in fact, true). It's a good thing he conceded. That doesn't mean others can't investigate and see if there's something there. And if actual solid proof turns up, Kerry still has his lawyers at the ready.
      •  asdf (none)
        I gave a 4 because it is patently absurd that people would give you a 1 for your comment here.  Almost as absurd as voting for Bush.
  •  Check out this graphic on NYT website (none)
    Of "BUSH" counties. I knew the night of the election that they had interfered with our freedom to vote (NOTICE HOW I FRAMED THAT!)

    http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/11/06/national/nat_FLORIDA_041107.gif

  •  NY Times Florida article reports (none)
    that turnout was unexpectedly high in 'red' rural and suburban counties and ABNORMALLY LOW in 'blue' urban counties.

    But the article was written in the context of Bush's winning strategy of course, with no mention of possible fraud in the vote counting.

    I assume the article was based on the raw vote totals.  Other than ballot counting (whether optical scan or touch-screen), is there any way to get information on the # of voters (and their party registration) who actually showed up?  I know at my precinct in CA, they always cross voters off a big registration list when they show up, so the info. should be there.

  •  Story to be posted on BlackBoxVoting.org tonight (4.00)
    BlackBoxVoting.org says they will post more info tonight:

    SATURDAY Nov. 6 2004: A new story, with documents, is going up tonight. It is not about vote fraud. Those are coming. This one is about a certification situation that looks like -- well, you'll see what it looks like. Now, in the area of voting machine fraud, we have experts looking at very problematic information in several locations, but will not release it until conclusions are independently confirmed, hopefully within 24 hours.

    Of course we should be skeptical, but we already threw any semblance of scientific skepticism out the window when we acquiesced to voting machines with no paper trails and no audits.  Let's be honest -- we already have a "faith-based" voting system.  If you want to be skeptical, be skeptical of BOTH claims of voter fraud AND claims that the unaudited black box vote is accurate.

  •  Jeff Fisher (2.00)
    Anyone in Florida who followed Jeff Fisher's "campaign" would have to laugh at this as a credible source of anything!
  •  Doesn't ACT have call lists (4.00)
    for registered dems in Fla?  It would be a simple matter of splitting up the call lists amongst us, just like GOTV, and calling up the dems in some of these suspect counties where there was a huge flip.  A pattern would emerge after a few hundred calls and we could see whether the vote got switched.

    "Conservatism makes no poetry, breathes no prayer, has no invention; it is all memory." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    by reef the dog on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 03:28:53 PM PST

    •  Excellent point (4.00)
      If it turns out they did reject the K/E ticket - it would be good for us to know why. If it turns out they voted overwhelmingly for him then we've got something more useful to use as a yardstick than simple party ID.
      •  A question......If ACT and the Dems and MoveOn (none)
        and who knows how many other organizations have/had the call lists, and were calling these registered Democrats prior to the 11/2 election, did none of these voters say "Don't call me any more, I'm voting for Bush"? or "I'm not voting Democratic" or something to indicate they were going in the Bush column?

        I'm just surprised that WE were surprised in states blanketed with pollsters, phone bankers, block walkers, precinct workers, etc.

        Most Americans are a lot dumber than we give them credit for- George Carlin 2004

        by maggiemae on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 06:04:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I know (none)
          It seems strange. Maybe local Dems out there were just being polite? Who knows.

          I guess I don't understand why they'd remain Democrats if they are routinely voting for Republicans, as some of the others here have suggested. It doesn't make sense to me.

  •  Elizabeth Edward: Patience shall be rewarded (none)
    Daily Kos :: Elizabeth Edward: Patience shall be rewarded

    Something to mull over... I hope she and Teddy are right!

    Elizabeth Edward's post on Democrat Underground:
    ... I want to share something inspiring, part of a letter from Thomas Jefferson.. Jefferson sent the letter in 1798 after the passage of the Sedition Act:

    A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people, recovering their true sight, restore their government to its true principles."

  •  More Damning Raw Data (none)
    here

    What we need is a smoking gun, though. This isn't it, but we're getting warmer.

  •  Don't forget what 7-Eleven had to say (none)
    From my diary:

    The national chain of 7-Eleven stores ran a month-long  promotion prior to the presidential election by selling their coffee in cups saying "I'm voting for Bush," or "I'm voting for Kerry." The nationwide results in 2004 mirrored the reported election results very closely, with 51.08 percent of voters preferring their coffee in the Bush cups, and 48.92 percent preferring theirs in the Kerry cups.

    "Our popular vote was right on," said Jim Keys, head of 7-Eleven, Inc. "We sell a million cups of coffee every day, so our sample size was huge." Remember, that's a million cups every day, for a whole  month prior to the election.

    Results for individual states, however, sometimes seemed to be off by a large margin. In Ohio, for example, the cup tally favored Kerry at 54%. Maybe the republicans were more likey to buy their coffee at Starbucks. Or maybe the 7-Eleven cup tally was more accurate than the voting machines.

    [Adapted from a report in the Dallas Morning News, by Cheryl Hall]

    •  I wonder what other (none)
      State's numbers looked like.
      Was it only Ohio that was off?
    •  Please tell 7 eleven's ceo (3.66)
      that any 7 eleven i walked into only had Bush cups so i had to take one but made sure to cover it up wit the little cardboard sleeve. I was so ashamed!!!!!!!!!!!
      •  Now that is a very good point! (none)
        What was the distribution of Kerry vs Bush cups and was it consistent?
        Any info on who 711 CEO supports?

        That would be a perfect to "add" to the common wisdom, by saying people "picked" the winner.

        So Kossacks, who else participated and could you "cast" your vote every time you had the chance?  Or was your vote "flipped" when you needed a coffee more than a silly vote in a silly poll.

    •  Which is proof of nothing. (none)
      You cannot judge how people vote by bumper stickers... or yard signs either. To be honest the Dems I know are not the in your face kind... where all of the repubs are like that. A Bush /Cheney supporter has no issue with letting everyone see...I would ask if those were the only two cups available... if plain cups were there... Bush supporters are proven only to flaunt it more..
  •  I agree with Addison (none)
    I wouldn't run with any of this stuff until we have serious proof, or until a serious journalist picks it up.
  •  While awaiting evidence for 'fraud'... (none)
    ....I suggest we have all the evidence we need for a failed franchise.

    As President Carter noted earlier this Fall, "....some basic international requirements for a fair election are missing in Florida."

    We have a unique and powerful opportunity between now and 13 Dec 2004 to call 'halt.'

    We do not need evidence of 'fraud' to call 'halt.' We have more than enough evidence of multiple mechanisms of disenfranchisement -- from ambiguous voting procedures and ballots, to persons having to stand in line for hours to vote.

    The unique and powerful opportunity to which I refer is centered on a crucial fact regarding the Electoral College and on the reality that 55+million American Citizens, at least, are outraged, agitated, ....., about what happened on 2 Nov.

    The unique and powerful opportunity we have happens to be an entirely NON-PARTISAN.

    So, I think We have a way to restore our Democracy and we have an opportunity to make it happen, now.

    If you have any interest, please consider reading the following two diaries, and recommending both:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/6/14313/8757

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/6/17325/3605

    Whenever I make this suggestion, in the truest spirit of attempting dialogue, I always recommend the diary to which I've added these comments.

    So, I am co-promoting your ideas, insights as well as my suggestions and hopefully this will be received in the spirit of saving our democracy that is my fervent intention.

    Just wish I had more to offer at this crucial time.

    Thank you from a tireless citizen.

  •  There's a graph (none)
    which shows the number of registered voters of a party and the actual vote for the candidates.  It looks very fishy....

    If I didn't read and think for myself, I could be a Republican

    by bonddad on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 03:39:15 PM PST

  •  Help me here. (none)
    Don't the optiscan votes have a paper trail?

    I want to believe we can find some evidence of fraud as much as anyone, but let's be realistic.  These people may be dumb, but they're not stupid -- they wouldn't hack a computer to radically change vote tallies that can easily be checked by review of the optical voting ballot sheets.

    •  I think (none)
      The decision to retrofit machines with paper receipts was made by each Sec. of State. I think some may have them while others don't, but I'm not exactly sure.
    •  One would think not... (none)
      and as soon as someone verifies the hand recount of the fill-in-the-blank optical scans, I'll take my tin-foil hat off.
    •  Am I confused? (none)
      I agree with you - aren't the optical scan machines the ones that read a paper ballot?  If so, that's what my town uses, and there would be a mountain of ballots marked that could be easily recounted by hand.

      " I went to war for George W. Bush; I came home to vote for John Kerry." - Sam Poulton

      by whometense on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 04:05:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  What's with this demand for proof thing? (3.75)
    I don't understand why people are demanding proof of fraud.

    We know that the voting machines are owned and controlled by hardcore Republicans.

    We know that they were used in states whose elections were controlled by hardcore Republicans.

    We know that the exit polls and actual results were so off that a respected pollster like Zogby, who got it right in 2000, was predicting a 311-227 EV victory for Kerry, and that many news sources were giving credence to the idea of a Kerry victory on the day of the election on the same basis.  

    We know that exit polls are used as a check against election fraud.

    Why is the onus of proof not on those who are touting the official results to show that there was no fraud?

    Four more years of peace and prosperity---not

    by stunster on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 03:46:58 PM PST

    •  I don't understand it either (none)
      Thank you very much for posting.

      <"Do not seek the treasure!" >

      by moon in the house of moe on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 03:52:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Addendum (none)
      I might add that the Zogby Kerry win EV prediction was reported right here on non-tinfoil dailykos.

      But now we just dismiss the discrepancy as tinfoil?

      Four more years of peace and prosperity---not

      by stunster on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 03:52:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Zogby. (none)
        His claim to fame was getting the popular vote right in 2000. However, even then, his state results weren't so good (California 45-45 anyone?)
      •  Proof is needed to take action (none)
        We can't just claim fraud with no proof.

        When your opponent is drowning, throw the son of a bitch an anvil. - James Carville

        by sgilman on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 03:59:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, the exit polls (none)
        are a crucial indication of possible voter fraud.
        I can't get them out of my head.

        I'd love to see a comparison of the accuracy of the exit polls in touch-screen vs paper trail counties.  

        I just think we need to be very careful and organized about this whole thing.   And we need some statisticians and data analysts if they're out there.  I'm hoping the Kerry campaign has plenty and are working hard on this.  They must be.

    •  Imagine this. (3.33)
      Suppose Kerry had won, and a Republican told you "Well, I don't believe it, I demand proof that all of those votes were valid."

      What would your reaction have been?

      •  If they can suggest a realistic way to get... (none)
        the proof, and are willing to pay for it, then I'd be all in favor of it.  I want the election to be legitimate.  It's important that people believe in our system.  If that means putting up with some recounts, then so be it.  Eventually, the evidence will either bear out their theory or disprove it, and everybody can settle into reality.  

        I have to admit that the discrepancy between the exit polls and the results bothers me.  I have some experience in statistics, and it doesn't make sense that they were that off.  I can see how they could have been off on phone polling, but not exit polling.  People leaving polls want the world to know that their guy is winning, so they tend to tell the truth.  There is no incentive to lie - saying you voted for the other guy gives him an edge.   I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but if all it takes is sampling some ballots to settle the issue, then I'd like to see it done, just so I can know with certainty that the results were fair.  I don't like having doubts about my country's election.

      •  In this case (none)
        I hope I'd be intellectually honest enough to say that the Republicans had a valid point.

        The truth is that the mere lack of a paper audit trail casts doubt on the validity of all election results without paper trails, even if the election officials involved were completely honest and nonpartisan.

        Maybe declaring Kerry the victor now would be too divisive, but anyone who denies that we need a mandatory paper trail law is seriously misguided.

      •  My Reaction? (none)

        "Excellent. That's your right as a citizen in a participatory democracy. Here's the votes, here's a pair of nonpartisian observers to make sure you don't try to muck something up. Enjoy yourself, now!"

        Its like the media listened to Weird Al's "Dare to be Stupid" and said "Yes! This is how the world should be!"

        by RHunter on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 04:31:46 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  If there were a large discrepancy... (none)
        between exit polls and results, and if the GOP called for some hand-counts to check that the totals really were right, fine. I'd be holding my breath hoping to god that there hadn't been any sort of error and that Kerry really had won, but I wouldn't say they shouldn't check. I believe in democracy that way.
        •  Same here... (4.00)
          another big difference between a democrat and a republican, I guess.

          With the reports which have been substantiated of Nov. 2nd events, there's every reason to investigate.

          Now, in the case of what I've heard, that's been mostly slanted at disenfranchising Dems, so, while my fingers would be crossed, I'd also be thinking that any thorough investigation is bound to bring up Kerry's numbers.

      •  My reaction: (none)
        I would have sent my entire staff to that guy's house to beat on his door, screaming obscenities, until he chose to believe that there was no discrepency and that there was no need to recount the ballots.

        I'm Tom DeLay and I approve this message.

        Osama's followers think he has "moral values" too.

        by ragnark on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 08:05:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  What I want to know is... (none)
        WHY THE FUCK YOU GOT TROLL-RATED FOR THAT COMMENT?

        Geez, folks!

        I wear the black in mournin' for the lives that could have been,
        Each week we lose a hundred fine young men. -- Johnny Cash

        by Page van der Linden on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 12:46:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Without audit trails, burden of proof is on them (4.00)
      I agree. Do we have to apologize for being skeptical when there are NO audit trails?  Are we afraid someone will say we are un-American?

      How much are we willing to obediently swallow without protest? There are NO audit trails. Jimmy Carter said that this election does not meet international standards for fair elections. Why do we have to get a "permission slip" from the courageous major media before we can even ask questions among ourselves on our own progressive blog?  Have we really become so frightened?

      Are we worried that the trolls will laugh at us? I've got news for you.  They already are laughing.  Because they have been so successful in making everyone frightened.

      We should not be ashamed to ask questions. Don't jump to conclusions, but KEEP ASKING.  The major media will not pursue this unless we -- and the facts -- force them to.

    •  Sigh, dear faith-based fraud sniffers, (2.88)
      This has to be my last post on this, because I've posted way too much and it's exasperating...

      When some on our side (the rational one, remember!) keep pushing the idea of raud and then say "I don't understand why people are demanding proof of fraud," I just want to scream. We demand proof of fraud because we're reality based, because the media will demand it, because the American people will demand it, and because not everyone is so eager to have had fraudulent elections that they'll believe any bad statistic or unseen, unknown "proof" that shows such fraud. Some of us have passed beyond the denial stage of grief.

      Anyone who has to ask why people demand proof for assertions of fraud when hundreds of media outlets and Democratic lawyers have been poring over this data since TUESDAY and have found NO evidence for result changing massive fraud is operating beyond the bounds of rational thought and should be ignored until they have peer reviewed proof.

      Some may be think that on this issue we should operate on faith alone, without actual (incontrovertible) proof for massive fraud, but let's face it, there IS proof that such faith-based campaigns will only win elections for the Republicans, not for us.

      •  I have proof (4.00)
        that the Bush campaign engaged in systematic fraud.  I received a call from them on Nov. 2 (which I recorded), in which they tried to misdirect me and my wife to the wrong polling place.  They had called days earlier, and learned that we were voting for Kerry.  In my books, that's deliberate fraud.  The local Clerk of Elections (in PA) told me that she received similar complaints from other voters.

        So if they were willing to do something as cheesy and flagrant as that, what would they stop at?  This is far from the only ploy the Republicans employed to suppress the Democratic vote this year, so there is a clear pattern to their plans to undermine democracy.  Having seen this at first hand, I find it hard to believe that they would NOT falsify vote tallies as well if the opportunity presented itself.  Do you suppose that such devious operators would not see e-voting as a golden opportunity?

        •  are you suing? (none)
          You can file a lawsuit.  Even if they claim it was accidental and the intent was to help, it is still election fraud and election tampering and punishible by imprisonment and/or fines.

          However, first check if you are allowed to record a phone call in your state without the other party's knowledge.

          Get info from the phone company as to where the call came from, make a copy/copies of the recording.  Get a lawyer.  Make the charge.  An investigation might reveal whether it was just the individual (showing Republicans we won't back down) or that there was a systematic attempt at fraud which will then include conspiracy to commit fraud as another charge.

          I'm not a lawyer, I just like to read about law sometimes.

          •  The caller (none)
            left a message on my answering machine, which I saved and then recorded onto my computer.

            I am looking into my legal options.  The first route was to write a letter of complaint to the Chief Clerk of the Election Board, with a transcript of the call, as she requested.  No response yet from her.  I would like to work with the County Democratic Chair, esp. if others have come forward with similar complaints.  But regrettably he is said (by some local party stalwarts) to be not very with it.  In the end, if I must go with a private suit, and a lawyer is willing to take it on, I may very well sue the so-and-sos.

            I can't tell you how creepy I found this to be.  It pales in comparison to many of the other stunts I heard about during this campaign, of course, but the fact that it happened to me really drives the point home.  I've always been a registered Independent, but this stunt may very well be the last straw that makes me reregister as a Democrat.  Certainly I am pondering it for the first time in my life.

      •  putting the cart before the horse (3.66)
        Before on can prove fraud, one has to find evidence of fraud.

        What is disturbing to me is that the naysayers are saying, don't bother looking into it.

        I don't know if the vote was hacked or not. I do know that it has been demonstrated that it can be easily done by a variety of methods. I also know that for some odd reason, these machines were allowed to be used anyways without requiring any kind of paper trail or audit trail.

        So in my book it is not about who won or lost, JK already conceded. The election is over. It is about our voting process. Congress told activists and experts this past summer that without proof of a problem they were not going to do a thing to secure the evote. So, if for no other reason than pushing a verifiable, auditable voting method for next election, it needs to be documented and investigated now. We already have several verified reports from assorted counties that there WAS a problem with these machines and their tallies.

        And to those of you dismissing the speculation of fraud- were you around for Watergate? Deep rooted distrust in the RNC exists for a good reason. It's their track record.

        But I do agree we need to be looking at evidence, not hurling unfounded accusations.

        "As individual fingers we can easily be broken, but all together, we make a might fist" Watanka Tatanka (Sitting Bull)

        by wild salmon on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 05:02:59 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The election isn't over (none)
          til it's certified. JK's concession isn't legally binding. It's unlikely that the outcome is going to change, but not impossible. If many thousands of "miscounted" ballots turned up in Florida or Ohio, the outcome would change, just like that.

          But whether or not we expect a change in the outcome, we need to look into all this for the future. I just wish people wouldn't keep insisting that because Kerry conceded, it's too late for anything to change. "Unlikely" isn't the same as "impossible."

          •  That would be the ultimate "flip-flop" (none)
            And in my opinion, highly improbable.

            But we can always hope.

            Actually, upon considering what is at stake it would need to be investigated not as a means to declaring JK the winner, but as a commitment to the rights of American voters to have their votes count and be counted accurately.

            Unverified evoting is one of those fiascos that no sane person would support. And one seriously has to question why Congress let it happen. Serious efforts were made to fix this problem months before this election and those eforts were dismissed out of hand.

            "As individual fingers we can easily be broken, but all together, we make a might fist" Watanka Tatanka (Sitting Bull)

            by wild salmon on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 05:28:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Why we must question the accuracy of the vote (4.00)
        The Democrats and their lawyers, unfortunately, have not shown themselves able to defend our basic voting rights, and so many of us are understandably worried they will drop the ball again.  As for media outlets, it's not their job to defend my right to vote, so I shouldn't expect them to do it.

        That's why were are asking questions.

        If the Dems were vigorously defending our voting rights, there would be NO SUCH THING as Black Box voting with no audit trails.  That's common sense. Ask your friends from democratic countries overseas whether they elect their head of state using a black box system with no audit trail and no way to check the results. Of course they don't. Why on earth should we?

        After 2000, the Dems (and the GOP) had four years to demand real reform.  For whatever reason, it didn't happen.  Our eyes are open this time.  We have to stand up for our own rights. So far, we're simply asking questions, not indicting anyone.

        Even under the Patriot Act, I believe we still have the right to ask questions, don't we?

        •  Case in pont: Venezuela recall (none)
          After the right wing opposition howled and screamed when Chavez was easily re-elected by the majority of Venezuelan voters, it was the audit trail/paper trail that was used to recount the results of a predominately electronic election.

          International election observers noted the final results matched up well with exit polls. And they affirmed the value of having a paper receipt for all evotes cast.

          Chavez won, but it took the verification and a recount to prove it.

          Do you people think for one second that if JK had won, the GOP and RNC would not be denouncing the result as unverifiable and therefore fraudulent?

          My litmus test will be then next week. If Rove or RNC operatives suddenly start accusing the Dems of evote fraud- I will know we are onto something.

          "As individual fingers we can easily be broken, but all together, we make a might fist" Watanka Tatanka (Sitting Bull)

          by wild salmon on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 05:16:41 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Huh? (none)
        Faith-based fraud sniffers?

        Listen pal, you're the one taking the announced results on faith.   Not me.   Not others.

        There is no particularly good reason to think the official results are reliable given the motives of those who were in a position to manipulate them (Republican operatives and machine manufacturers) and given the exit polls.

        And yet you just assume they are reliable without checking?  And then say others are believing on faith that there was fraud?

        No.   Exit polls are recognized by experts as a good indicator of fraud when they're discrepant with the announced results.   That's what we have here. [sigh indeed]

        Four more years of peace and prosperity---not

        by stunster on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 05:06:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Addison (4.00)
        There already is proof of election fraud, from 2000 and 2002. So forgive everyone if they think all the strange data points to some more fraud.

        It's agreed that people need proof, but the Slashdot comunity has been screaming about this for years, with proof, and all Republicans or Democrats ever say is "get over it."

        Bush lied so many times in office, and now everyone is supposed to just accept the facts, despite all the previous findings? Forgive me, but that is Un-American. Our democracy is the greatest in history; if we don't shine the light on our possible flaws, you can be damned sure everyone else will.

        Consider, hypothetically that Bush didn't win. Just for a moment. Then realize what that would mean: The will of the people was circumvented, and other nations will now have even more leverage against us. If our democracy is not  true, then our society will fail.

        So, maybe Bush won. Why wouldn't we be able to prove it? I don't see armies of Republicans racing to disprove the accusations...in fact, I see a President who looks like he's waiting for the other shoe to drop.

        America has a long history of living in a transparent society, and we've stood proud in the face of mockery from the rest of the world.

        And now, we're supposed to abandon all our American principles and do what we used to claim we don't: give up. Ignore the possibility of error. Hide our dirty laundry.

        Whatever.

      •  Hey guys, (none)
        you have to stop looking for proof of fraud. The right venue to accomplish anything at all, for this election and future ones is demanding proof of veracity. It puts the onus right back where it belongs. And nothing else will secure your democracy.

        If you guys keep looking for fraud the faith-based community has achieved their goal of creating their own reality. While you guys are left to study that reality and whine about it.

    •  The demand (none)
      for proof, I think, stems from our desire to not look like whiny crybabies to the whole country - an action that could hurt dems in the future... I actually think we should keep searching, but quietly until we have solid proof.
      •  The demand (none)
        should be for proof of veracity.
      •  Who cares what you look like; remember who you are (none)
        Rosa Parks didn't care if people criticized her for making a fuss.  What's right is right.  Stop worrying what it will look like. Who cares?  Do we fear their ridicule more than we cherish democracy?  Don't give them more power than they already have.

        We should never be ashamed to risk ridicule in the service of what we believe is right.  You make a valid point, we must be careful and methodical -- BUT -- and here I disagree with you -- we must NOT be quiet.

        Don't obsess about the tinfoil hat.  You should be worried about the canvas bag the detainees wear.  That's headgear you really don't want anyone to wear.

  •  CNN Headline News (none)
    Anyone see this also?  Headline News just reported that a presinct in Ohio with just over eight hundred registered voters had more than 4000 votes counted for Bush on its voting machines.  After the error was discovered the number was corrected to little more than 300 votes for Bush. hmmm.
  •  Testing the hypothesis. (4.00)
    Go to one of the "questionable" counties. Get the list of registered voters. Select a random sample, start interviewing, and hope that the people will talk to you and give you the correct answer. Then you might have something to go on. Right now there's not enough evidence.
  •  Exit polls (none)
    Presumably Edison/Mitofsky would have exit poll data for each Florida county, or at least in several of the counties that seem way out of whack.

    This would be relatively easy to cross check.  While they may be off, there is no way they can be off by a point or two in a particular county.  When they are extrapolated across counties to get the entire state more error is introduced.

    We need lawyers NOW to get access to the Edison/Mitofsky data for Florida and Ohio.  Something is indeed rotten.

    •  Correction (none)
      I meant to say "no way they can be off by more than a point or two".  
    •  Mitofsky on News Hour 11/5 (4.00)
      Did anyone see Mr. Mitofsky on PBS News Hour last night?  I got the sense that he was evading the interviewer's questions on exit polling, at one point saying that maybe Republicans were less inclined to respond to exit pollers, or perhaps they'd been advised not to cooperate with them.  

      I just wanted to put this out there...

      •  I saw him. (none)
        I thought his answers were screwy, to say the least.  If the exit polls are as ridiculously unreliable as he seemed to be saying, why does anyone use them?  No, I didn't buy his explanation at all.

        " I went to war for George W. Bush; I came home to vote for John Kerry." - Sam Poulton

        by whometense on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 07:06:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Evidence Mounts That The Vote Was Hacked (none)
    It would be interesting to impound the voting machines at one or more suspect precincts and enter maybe a thousand votes or so into each and check the results against the entries. Might generate some evidence one way or the other.
    •  If the GAO does investigate (none)
      They'll do an outstanding job, of that I feel sure. I'm sure they'd do exactly as you suggest here too. It's pretty much the only way to begin any meaningful analysis of how reliable these machines are.
    •  Machines (none)
      Does anyone know the answer to where the machines used in Ohio & Florida are currently? Whose supervision are they under? Are they accessible?

      The second FOX declared it for Bush I began screaming (to myself, atleast),"Impound the machines!", "Get a court order, whatever it takes!"

      Is it the kind of thing where only Blackwell as S of S has control?

      If so it's time for the SWAT teams.

      •  as per (none)
        Verified Voting:
        Ohio -
        Mixed bag of Puch Card throughout most of the state, Opti-Scan (central count) 12 counties, eVoting (other) in 6 counties, eVoting (touchscreen) 1 county, and Opti-Scan (precinct count) 1 county  

        Florida -
        Opti-Scan (precinct count) throughout most of the state and eVoting (touchscreen) 15 counties.

  •  We are on to something (4.00)
    EVERY post on this thread that offers talking points to "disprove" this "flipped county" theory has a suspiciously high user id #.

    I think we are on to something.  Keep scratching folks, I think this is the beginnings.  But the flipped counties in Florida are incredibly compelling and oh so easy to prove or disprove.  Anyone know anyone at ACT?  I'm going to email the.  A few hundred freakin' phone calls will lay this to rest pone way or the other.  For that matter, does anyone here LIVE in one of these counties?  A sample of a couple hundred dems would clear it up.

    "Conservatism makes no poetry, breathes no prayer, has no invention; it is all memory." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    by reef the dog on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 04:01:53 PM PST

    •  I'm one of those high id'er's, i guess... (none)
      ...and it looks to me like the election was rigged. However, the voter registration stuff just doesn't hold water. I looked up the 2000 results for some of the more extreme examples, and they went for Bush then as well, though not by as much. Before that, they tended to go for Clinton, before that apparently, they went for  Bush the first, so make of it what you will. There's a very good chance that someone can nail this, but the voter registration figures are just Dan Rather's forged letter all over again - the mistake that will be used to blind the public from the deeper truth. I'm giving my dosh to Bev Harris ...
      •  The point that was lost (none)
        in that whole mess was that the secretary that supposedly typed the memos/reports/whatever said
        that while she didn't think she typed them, if they had been generated, thats what they would
        have said."
         Info correct - format bogus.
        somewhat rovian?

        and who will speak out when they come for you?

        by nargel on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 07:01:59 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  where do you see the user ID #? (none)

      Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

      by Einsteinia on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 11:43:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Fraud (none)
    There is no need to allege fraud right now.  We know a lot of errors have been discovered with electric tabulation. In the case of optical scan, we have a paper ballot to check.  While we are a long way from an automatic recount, perhaps enough error can be discovered to trigger a manual recount of optical scan.

    I say first we need the exit poll data by county for Florida.

  •  FL Question (none)
    Do you have to sign in when you show up to vote? Here in Chicago you do.
    •  yes (none)
      I voted in Collier County and had to sign in first.  There may not be any more votes counted then were cast, but there could be a huge tabulation error or fraud in the optical scan counties where the correlation between party registration and votes is so skewed.

      The good thing is there is a paper trail with optical scan.  I believe the news media can gain access to these ballots under Florida Sunshine laws.  Remember in 2000 the media did its own recount.

      There is something wrong here.  I know people are sometimes slow to change party identity but in this case there's no way that many Blue Dog Democrats are left.  Castor and Martinez was very close and I don't see how there could be that many Castor/Bush ticket splitters.

      •  Well then it is a question of math (none)
        Compare the number of people who signed in to that of the actual vote in the precinct.
        •  Counting Error (none)
          chicagoprogressive, sure the vote totals can be compared to signatures.  But if there was a tabulation error or fraud then there is a paper trail with optical scan ballots.

          The media could at least go in and check a few counties under the Sunshine laws but I'm not sure when they can gain access to these ballots.

  •  Kid Oakland nails it. (none)
    He nails it in this  diary. I have nothing to add to that.
    •  Don't need to allege fraud (none)
      Frank, I agree there is no need to allege fraud.  But evidence is mounting in many places where errors in tabulation have been discovered - 4000 extra Bush votes in Ohio being the most obvious example.

      The registration/votes case numbers are extremely strange and don't hold up in the electronic voting counties.

      If the exit poll data by county is obtained this issue can easily be clarified.

      •  The numbers aren't that strange. (none)
        The numbers are not that strange when compared to 2000. They show that a lot of registered Democrats in those counties already voted for Bush in 2000. Being a registered Democrat doesn't mean much in those areas.

        If people want to investigate why those numbers went up, they should do so, but don't get people's hopes up and point and scream before the data has been checked and double checked. It's not fair to people who already had an emotional blow on Tuesday, and it's simply unwise to act on bad, or at least, inconclusive, data.

    •  frank+addison=dataguy=peas in a TROLLy POD. (none)

      'It tastes like ... burning. ' -- Ralph Wiggum

      by trippinsf on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 09:04:42 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Heh (3.50)
    Just seeing the desperate trolls on this thread trying to kill this whole line of inquiry is making me perk up for the first time since that dreaded Tuesday night.  Was this Rove's last ditch hail Mary pass, to switch the results in Florida?  

    "Conservatism makes no poetry, breathes no prayer, has no invention; it is all memory." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    by reef the dog on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 04:12:29 PM PST

  •  Audit (none)
    It is my understanding that the Florida legislature has passed -- and Jeb Bush signed a law forbidding audit of paperless (and other?) v machines.

    Does this mean you can't contest the Florida election? Ya gotta respect the Bush family post election thoroughness.

    Game, set, match?

  •  4,000 out of 500 voters agree (4.00)
    that Bush won, fair and square.

    </dark sarcasm>

    Kerry/Edwards: For a reality-based America

    by Em on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 04:14:04 PM PST

  •  Everybody Stop. Please Listen! (none)
    This theory does not hold up!

    The Thom Hartmann article says:

    The State of Florida, for example, publishes a county-by-county record of votes cast and people registered to vote by party affiliation. Net denizen Kathy Dopp compiled the official state information into a table, available at http://ustogether.org/Florida_Election.htm, and noticed something startling.

    While the heavily scrutinized touch-screen voting machines seemed to produce results in which the registered Democrat/Republican ratios largely matched the Kerry/Bush vote, in Florida's counties using results from optically scanned paper ballots - fed into a central tabulator PC and thus vulnerable to hacking - the results seem to contain substantial anomalies.

    In Baker County, for example, with 12,887 registered voters, 69.3% of them Democrats and 24.3% of them Republicans, the vote was only 2,180 for Kerry and 7,738 for Bush, the opposite of what is seen everywhere else in the country where registered Democrats largely voted for Kerry.

    This is certainly true as shown in the referenced table:

    http://ustogether.org/Florida_Election.htm

    BUT look at the table with results from 2000

    http://ustogether.org/election04/FL2000.htm

    from the same organization.

    The results are not that different.

    This is Zell Miller country. Here is data on Baker County:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_County,_Florida

    Lots of life-long Democrats there probably always vote Republican.

    Further scrutiny might uncover something, but the basic premise Dem/Rep correlates to Kerry/Bush is not valid in this part of the country.

    This is certainly not a hotbed of liberalism as the registration roles might imply.

    I'm sure that there is a case to be made for voter fraud. How else could be be stuck with this disaster for another four years, but I don't think this is it. Let's not fall into the trap of spouting off without real solid stuff. It only serves to discredit the real evidence. Be very careful this is a hotbed of snakes and there are lots of traps.

    •  Congratulations MediaFreeze, (1.66)
      The new proof of fraud is... US! You see, as it turns out we're trolls and our mere wondering why there's no proof of fraud constitutes, in itself, FRAUD! Much like how dinosaurs prove God exists because the fossils are only there b/c God is trying to fool us!  You see now how we, the reality-based, have ourselves proven the case for fraud which was previously completely faith-based!

      Sigh, when will people demand truth and not easy lies? Maybe the answer of "not anytime soon" is the real reason we lost last Tuesday.

      •  Yep. (3.25)
        I understand the feelings. People had so much hope, and those hopes got crushed on Tuesday.

        My initial reflex was "Florida is being stolen again" on election eve. But, I forced myself to be "reality-based" and look for evidence.

        I do believe that there are people out there who would be willing to do anything, including fraud, to  make the Right win. However, there's no evidence of this.

        It's sad to get troll-rated for pointing out that there has been no hard evidence so far.

    •  But more on this.... (none)
      Look at Baker County:

      As of the census2 of 2000, there are 22,259 people, 7,043 households, and 5,599 families residing in the county. The population density is 15/km² (38/mi²). There are 7,592 housing units at an average density of 5/km² (13/mi²). The racial makeup of the county is 84.04% White, 13.92% Black or African American, 0.38% Native American, 0.40% Asian, 0.03% Pacific Islander, 0.25% from other races, and 0.98% from two or more races. 1.88% of the population are Hispanic or Latino of any race.

      There are 7,043 households out of which 41.20% have children under the age of 18 living with them, 61.70% are married couples living together, 13.10% have a female householder with no husband present, and 20.50% are non-families. 17.10% of all households are made up of individuals and 6.90% have someone living alone who is 65 years of age or older. The average household size is 2.86 and the average family size is 3.20.

      In the county the population is spread out with 27.50% under the age of 18, 9.90% from 18 to 24, 30.70% from 25 to 44, 22.70% from 45 to 64, and 9.20% who are 65 years of age or older. The median age is 34 years. For every 100 females there are 110.60 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there are 112.40 males.

      The median income for a household in the county is $40,035, and the median income for a family is $43,503. Males have a median income of $30,240 versus $21,279 for females. The per capita income for the county is $15,164. 14.70% of the population and 11.40% of families are below the poverty line. Out of the total people living in poverty, 22.20% are under the age of 18 and 8.60% are 65 or older.

      What are the Democrats doing losing by Baker county by: Bush 7,738 Kerry 2,180?!!

      I don't care how many people are registered what. The media income for a houshold is around $40,000. Exactly the same as in Miami Dade county (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dade_County,_Florida). These people are struggling to make ends meet. They are poorly served by the Bush Administration. Yet, they vote for him against their clear economic interst.

      This is the problem. We can't win the Presidency in the margins, it has to be a clear and overpowering victory for social justice. Or we lose. They just control too much power.

      •  Huge % of whites voted for Bush in the county (none)
        If we can assume that blacks voted around 10% for Bush. Is there something about this county where almost all whites voted Bush? If not, then are these numbers credible?

        Just because the media has not dug up any evidence of large-scale electoral problems does not mean that we can rule them out.

        After all, the report on the missing Iraqi explosives and looting had been out for months, the media that some on this thread are so depending on had no clue until a week before the election. Meanwhile hundreds of GIs died from car bombs and roadside bombs.

        What people are doing is asking questions when the election process is not clear. Should they just clam up about any doubts they have? Let's be patient and have them air the data out. If it turns out that much of the data discrepancies are explainable, then for subsequent elections, we can have more confidence that we can depend on the current system.

    •  Were votes in 2000 also electronically tabulated? (none)
      When you say that the touch-screen results are not that different in 2000 and 2004, I take it to mean that we can rely on the 2000 results as a baseline of some sort.

      Were the counties in question using the electronic machines in 2000?  

      After all, if the machines are possibly causing problems in 2004, we cannot assume that they were not likewise causing problems in 2000.

      So my question is, do we have similar data for 2000 and 2004 in counties that were using paper trail voting in 2000 and touch-screen in 2004?  That would be interesting to know.

      •  Look... (none)
        ...if it was off by as much as this theory suggests then don't you think you'd have at least a few irate citizens of Baker County jumping up and down about it.

        Here's a link to the local paper. They don't seem too shook up about the results:

        http://www.bcstandard.com/news/2004/1104/Front_Page/

        Let's move on to a real analysis with some real evidence. I hope they we find it, but this isn't it. At least on the surface. Could they be fooling around with the margins. Maybe. It would be interesting to look at the differences between 2004 and 2000, but on the surface they don't look that significant.

  •  I'm skeptical of this article. (none)
    If the congressman has hard evidence, I hope he nails Diebold. But the article is just second-hand information. I would like to see good hard evidence before saying for a fact that there was fraud.

    We need to ensure that there is a verifiable paper trail on all e-ballots next time and appeal to rural voters if we want to win next time.

    Claiming that Diebold cost us the election without hard evidence will just tell rural voters we are sore losers. Across the country, we won in urban areas like KC and StL, but lost in rural areas. Trying to blame Diebold does not explain how we lost in places like MO, IA, NM, WVa, or KS.

    I wrote a diary earlier today about how we need to appeal to rural voters, but in a nutshell, rural voters don't see us as any different than the Republicans except the Republicans are more willing to talk about God, country, and flag. We need to bring up issues that affect rural voters to neutralize GOP dominance there so the big cities will deliver us the wins.

  •  Sting Operation? (3.50)
    I posted this elsewhere, but I was hoping for feedback.
    My gut feeling is there are criminal indictments coming. Kerry is a very smart man, and publicly stated what a criminal operation the Bush people were. Knowing how much the CIA and FBI hate the Bush people for pushing 911 blame on them, perhaps they laid a trap. They certainly have the means to moniter hacking activity. I also recall Rove being grilled in front of the Grand Jury shortly before the election. Maybe they were setting him up to impeach his testimony later.
    The results of the election are bull. The cover story of Fundies rushing out to vote for Bush and for all the Marriage amendments doesn't wash. Look at the Ohio totals. The Repub Senator votes match pretty close to the amendmnet votes. Bush vote totals only close in a few counties. A lot more people voted for Senator, amendment, and against Bush. I wasn't excited about Kerry(I was a Wes Clark man)but he doesn't strike me as someone afraid of a fight.
    •  If it is, it's a risky one. (none)
      But if it is and it works, he could take out not just Bush and Rove, but lots of the Florida GOP power structure as well as demoralizing the fundamentalists for years to come.  Man, it would be sweet to think of Rove being introduced to his cellmate 'Bubba' -- whose mother lives in Ohio and was prevented from voting by Republican challengers.

      Wouldn't it be great to have a President who did the right thing as the automatic choice instead of a grudging last resort?

      by DemInTampa on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 07:24:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Another Question To Rephrase (4.00)
    We keep hearing that we need to rephrase things to attract the red voters (which is true to a point). Perhaps we need to keep this in mind here.

    If we protest that the election was stolen without firm evidence, we will look like sore losers, and some will take Democrats less seriously.

    If we do nothing, we will have no way to even know if this (and future) elections are stolen.

    The issue must be the integrity of elections. That in itself is sufficient to demand that there be proof that the declared winner is the true winner. In a democracy it is essential that the voters believe that the winner really is the one who received the majority of the votes.

    If honest, there is no reason for either side to object to reforms to ensure an honest and fair election.  It is in the interest of the Republicans, if they won fairly, for this to be proven also.

    Should anyone stand in the way of reforms to ensure fair elections, they are the ones who should have a lot of explaining to do about their position.. Let them be on the defensive over this, not us.

  •  The Common Dreams Article (4.00)
    I feel like Jane Marple here, but human nature being what it is, this is what I found to be the most interesting point in the whole article:

    Others offer similar insights, based on other data. A professor at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, noted that in Florida the vote to raise the minimum wage was approved by 72%, although Kerry got 48%. "The correlation between voting for the minimum wage increase and voting for Kerry isn't likely to be perfect," he noted, "but one would normally expect that the gap - of 1.5 million votes - to be far smaller than it was."

    Admissible in court kind of evidence?  Nope.  But that does seem very odd to me.  

    •  Not really (none)
      What likely happened is many, many fewer voters voted on the minimum wage question, and most of those were lower income voters, i.e. Democrats. This is not surprising at all.
      •  If that's the case... (none)
        ...why would the measure pass with 72% yes votes?  I find it very hard to believe that people who overwhelmingly suppport Bush also overwhelmingly support an increase in minimum wage...the GOP always argues against raising the minimum wage as being bad for business.
  •  Verified Voting appears to be documenting evidence (3.75)
    You can see their map of election complaints here:

    https://voteprotect.org/index.php?display=EIRMapNation&tab=ED04

    Also, they have a more solid rep than Bev Harris and her Black Box Voting org, although both are pursuing the same issue on the same grounds.

    Consider this: If the DNC or outside orgs DO have concrete evidence of vote hacking, vote shifting, or some other nefarious means of manipulating the vote, what would you expect them to do? Make a media circus of it, or quietly collect the evidence and pursue it as a criminal matter, which it certainly would be.

    3,000 counties in the US used evote machines. Many were installed in predominately Dem districts. Bush "won" the popular vote by about 4 million votes. It would only require an average of 1,300 shifted or added votes per machine to give him that many.

    I don't care if they want to dismiss us as the tin foil hat crew, it still deserves a full investigation. I find it positively bizarre that people who are shocked by the outcome are not seriously questioning the methodology and technology used to obtain it.

    Why did the GOP refuse to let out of committee th very bills that would have secured the vote and prevented this speculation in the first place? Why was the RNC funding voter registration drives where their employees were instructed to change Dem and Indy voters to GOP?

    I agree we need evidence, and not that of the anecdotal, 3rd hand variety.

    "As individual fingers we can easily be broken, but all together, we make a might fist" Watanka Tatanka (Sitting Bull)

    by wild salmon on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 04:36:09 PM PST

  •  Rural Florida counties (4.00)
    This is my first post here, so I hope I'm doing this correctly.  I was raised in a rural FL county (Hendry), and my parents still live there.  I just wanted to give my insight on this FL voter fraud issue.  

    First of all, rural FL counties are "Deep South" as much as GA, SC, or AL.  Rural counties are not populated by transplants from other sections of the country, but instead by FL natives.  Particularly, the panhandle region is commonly referred to as "Lower Alabama".  However, even rural counties in central or south FL are very "Bible Belt".  In many ways, rural FL is worse than where I live now...a medium sized city in SC.

    As for the party registrations, the way it works in FL is that party registration is chosen at the time of registration and is not changed unless the person actually goes to the voter registration office and has it changed.  Because local politics in FL (and most of the south) was Democratic for years, many of the people in rural FL will still be registered as Dems even though they now consider themselves to be Repubs.  For this reason, I personally do not see fraud coming from the party registration vs. Bush votes figures, in rural counties especially.  

    To illustrate just how backward rural FL can be, my parents recently went to a Halloween party in their town.  The "costume" one of the partygoers was wearing was a KKK uniform!  Not only did nobody at the party (other than my folks) even blink an eye, but many thought it was hilarious.  The "costume" was a genuine KKK uniform handed through his family for generations.

    I think that many people picture South Beach when they think of FL, but I can attest that there is a very large portion of the interior and panhandle (which are less frequented by tourists, and therefore less visible) that certainly are as far from "enlightened" as you can get!

    My parents told me that they do not know of a single other person in their town (other than themselves) who voted for Kerry, including African-Americans and Hispanics.  They all voted the "safety" issue.

    Believe me, I hope that this voter fraud thing pans out, because the thought of Four More Years is making me sick!  I just thought I would give my input since I had some personal experience in this part of the country.

  •  dixiecrats (none)
    Personally,  I don't think answers will be found in something that you can find on a web-site.

    It would much cleaner for someone to hack the state mainframe and just go to the source, also it wouldn't leave an obvious trail to a non-expert.

    The exit polls are the biggest red flag we have. What are the the final exits like in a state like Indiana or Arizona, or Texas ...non-battleground states.

    •  Exit Polls in TX or AZ (4.00)
      I've been interested in the same. Based on the fact that we elected the first openly lesbian Sheriff in the country, how could Dallas County NOT have gone Kerry? Although we closed the gap from 2000 (52-48) to supposedly 50.44 to 49.03 in 2004, anecdotally + GOTV + a gay sheriff elected, how did Dallas NOT go for Kerry? And how did TX give a BIGGER margin to shrub this time? It doesn't match what we heard and saw here on the ground. How do we request those numbers publicly?
  •  What do dems in the Florida (none)
    counties have to say?

    Are they just sitting around staring at the wall - or do they think they've been screwed?

    I don't understand why everyone reporting on this seems not to live anywhere near Florida.

    •  Dem In Hillsborough (4.00)
      We have touch screens here in Hillsborough. My husband and I waited 3 hours to vote. I even had a very heated discussion with another voter about getting a paper trail and having it verified. He just didn't get it. "computers never fail!". Uh, yeah...

      I think you guys are onto something. I felt that way since they called FL for Bush. I am really disturbed by the Castor/Bush voters. It just doesn't make sense. Martinez was grilling Castor about terrorists the entire time (The Sami Al-Arian thing at USF, where she was pres). I just don't see how someone would vote for her and Bush... Maybe a few, but I think it's like 11K

      I'll do anything I can here to get this figured out - no matter the outcome. Maybe I could be a Dem thug chanting to keep a recount going? :)

      We didn't know what way to vote this time - would they count an absentee? would our evotes "dissapear"? Do early votes count? I just want to know that our voting system can be trusted, so we can cream in fair and square in 2 years.

  •  I read this story a couple of hours ago.... (none)
    Thom Hartman's is a clever man - No one is blamed, it could be a kid Rove employs at the weekend, a partisan Freeper, or it could be a corporation hand - we don't know.

    My view is that the Katherine Harris line is the political way of giving Bush a clean way out before the electoral college meets.

    It's not a necessary line, but is obvious if the press do decide to take it up is that the Right does not launch themselves into violent apoplexy because their 'hero' is cheated. It will be bad enough for them when it comes out publicly with the gloating many of them indulged in. If he can clearly blame someone else for the fix, the faith based will be happy not to go crazy.

    If it does get into this news cycle the Bushies will make a choice sooner rather than later, remember, Kerry is integrity, untainted by the drama, and neither are the Bushies (dependent on who takes the fall as the scapegoat).
    The danger being that the Bushies could just as easily try to ride it out just like the war dead, missing explosives, Abu Ghraib and a million other dreadful things. I don't want to be in possession of the facts yet be totally impotent to convince the faith based and a hostile neo con cowed media for the next 4 years.

    I'm hoping that a dignified Bush faced with yet more presidential illegitimacy is still possible. History will be kinder if he does the right thing. He doesn't want the job, and that's fine by me and the world.
    The myth makers even turned Reagan into a hero, they'll have no problem with finding Bush's finest hour, just by telling themselves after Kerry gets us out of Iraq that 'Mission Accomplished' happened right at that moment.

    We have to be mindful that if this story fails to gain traction or is killed by the FBI, the minority vote will not be there for another white man in 2008. Without verifiable paper trails, turnout would be depressed due to no one having faith that their vote will count favoring the GOP by default. Given the last 4 year record that would be the Rove option.
    It's not Bush that is evil; immature and a dim bulb maybe, it's his power crazy handlers that make the decisions and write the speeches.

    "Every vote will count, and every vote will be counted" still rings true for me, if I lose faith in that promise, If it was hollow, my faith in K/E was misplaced and I accept the disenfranchisement of a million Democrats in two elections running is normal.

    Optimistically speaking, or is it naive and idealistic? :o)

  •  we need (none)
    someone from the mainstream media to tackle this story.  The problem is, it may take FOIA requests, which can take a long time.  

    This illustrates one of the many problems progressives have vs the right wing of this country.  If the tables were turned, and there was suspicion regarding a democratic victory, you'd have every talk radio host across the country, every right wing web site, the WSJ editorial page, and Fox News all screaming until the rest of the media paid attention.  

    I don't know what's true and what's fabrication, but we deserve to know.  We need someone with guts to go after this story hard.  I emailed all the major networks as well as Slate, the Wash Post, NY Times, and Hardball.  I suggest the rest of you do the same until we can get someone to go after this story soon!

  •  Let's not veer into dangerous waters... (2.50)
    Dr. Piotr Blass, a U.S. senatorial candidate in the state of Florida, is reported to be withholding evidence which reveals details regarding the manipulation of votes using the names of individuals who have been placed on the felons list. This is the charge being leveled by Jeff Fisher, who is himself a democratic congressional candidate for Florida's 16th congressional district.

    Mr. Fisher believes Dr. Blass is denying the public this crucial evidence in order to protect Joseph Klock, an attorney who facilitated the release of Dr. Blass' son from an abusive treatment center. Mr. Klock was, coincidentally, the attorney for former congresswoman Katherine Harris who was the Secretary of State during the contested 2000 Florida recount which helped put George W. Bush in the White House.

    "Dr. Blass obtained this information when he was on the staff at Bay Point School," Fisher stated. Bay Point School is a juvenile correctional facility in the Miami area. "I was told the school is a suspected training ground in computer science and programming for juvenile delinquents who manipulate electronic voting, without a true audit trail. It is believed that this activity is taking place not only there but in several schools like these nationwide. If true, then Bay Point School could be the Florida connection."

    Fisher alleges the school has direct connections with Joseph Klock, and that Blass informed him that his loyalty to Klock is more important than the truth about how the 2000 election was manipulated, and how it is possible for a repeat to occur in the upcoming November general election.

    First,  I believe that through incompetence and deliberate bias, a number of votes were perverted in the Ohio election.  I hope that between the obvious mistakes (4000 votes in Frankin) and the provisional ballot count, the gap between Kerry and Bush shrinks to the point of triggering an automatic recount.  At that point, I hope that an intensive review of the existing count and the spoilage will turn the tide.

    For all my hopes, I'm extremely worried that the argument will hinge on stories like the Fisher story ( http://rense.com/general59/FLORID.HTM).
    The easiest way to pervert any attempts to seriously review the election is to promote wacky theories.  Remember, we're dealing with a party that made Kerry's service in Vietnam seem despicable, while W's AWOL was heroic.

    Read the following and see if it sounds reasonable.

    "This is unacceptable and, in my opinion, borders on treason," said Fisher, who was visibly upset that someone might help cover-up more election fraud in Florida. "Over the last few days I have been in direct contact with progressive investigative journalist Greg Palast of Gregpalast.com, with the information that was supposed to be delivered to Greg Palast," he added. "But the sender was told by Dr. Blass not to send it. I then informed Greg's senior researcher, Mr. Oliver, about this critical development. I have had partial information in my possession for the past three months. Unfortunately, Dr. Blass has prevented me from releasing it to the general public."

    •  these guys are trolls. (none)
      wow... it feels weird saying that...

      the site their referencing is strange to say the least. go to its main page. ufo's, skulls, all sorts of weird stuff. and why the hell would they have a blackbox voting press release that blackbox voting doesn't have itself.

      addison and this guy, at very least, are trying to pull something.

    •  Yeah, right. (none)
      Juvenile correction facilities training young hackers to alter the vote. And the source is some fringe candidate.

      How tinfoil can one get? This is ludicrous.

  •  I have to chime in (none)
    on the registered Democrat/voted Bush issue. I, too, grew up in Florida, and I can vouch for the fact that many people who are registered Democrats have voted Republican in every election since Johnson-Goldwater. Some even before that.

    For example, I was stunned to find out today that my father is a registered Democrat, since he has voted Republican just about straight down the line since I was a kid. And that was a long, long time ago. (The exception was generally governors, until Jeb Bush came along.)

    So in my experience, voters registered in one party who vote in the other in presidential races don't really count for all that much when considering whether a Bush win in Florida might have been fraudulent. I wish I could say otherwise.

    •  interesting... but pertinent? (none)
      as i read it, the point of this guys article is that this trend of demo's massively voting for bush only seems to be happening in optical scan (read: easily hackable) counties... i'm still skeptical, but its definitely interesintg enough to warent a closer look...
    •  Back in the old Democratic South days (none)
      the Republican Party had no presence and the general election was only a formality. The real election was the Democratic primary. That's why everyone registered Democrat.

      People voting for forty years or more in the same county likely never changed official registration.

  •  what now? (none)
    Grnated I haven't read all the comments that have been written in this thread, but I have a question I hope someone can answer.

    We know therewas fraud, hacking, whatever.  We know Kerry really won.  Now what?  The electoral college doesn't vote til December.  Why can't we take this election back?  

    Is there not enough concrete evidence to take it to court.  Are the people who can take it to court (the Kerry campaign, the DNC) not paying attention, or just don't care?  I don't understand why all this evidence exists, and no one is fighting the results officially, only on blogs.  Am I wrong?  Please tell me I am.  

    Is anything being done to take it to court?  Anything that could lead to a Kerry presidency come January?

    •  I don't think so (none)
      Unless electors decide the will of the people is unknown based on flaky results and decide to abstain or something. But I doubt that.

      Bush will probably be in the White House for the next four years. This stuff has the greatest impact on upcoming elections, ensuring that our votes are counted properly and elections become fully auditable. So we lose Kerry, which is a shame because he would have been a damned fine President. But we gain greater confidence in our democracy, which is absolutely essential.

      •  I don't see why (none)
        If enough evidence turned up to demand hand recounts of some of these opti-scan results (which count paper ballots, so there's plenty of paper trail there), and the counts were way off from the reported totals, that would trigger more recounts. If the counts proved Kerry won, that's it, he's in. I don't get why people talk as if there's no way to get Kerry into the White House if there was fraud and if recounts tip the balance in his favor. Sure, the clock is ticking, and the evidence has to be dug out fast. But the window of opportunity isn't shut yet. Why do people talk as if it is?
        •  I suppose (none)
          It's always possible. I just don't know how probable it is.

          More to the point, for myself at least, I'm not sure I want him taking office under these conditions - unless we can prove he actually won the country's support in a landslide. That would be different. But I haven't seen anything yet that would support that conclusion (the landslide win, I mean). I've only seen, so far, clear evidence that the machines we're using have a tendency to malfuction (and, more curios, that the default appears to favor Republicans, so far).

          Public perception will be tricky here, I think. If it looks like this is done to reverse the election then people who voted for Bush will use it as a rallying cry to destroy Kerry's credibility. The "truth" won't really matter - just like it didn't matter with the Swift Boat crap. That's my concern.

          I'm just not very hopeful that the public will accept Kerry as its president unless we can irrefutably prove there was widespread willful fraud on the part of Bush's campaign. I'm not sure we're ever going to have that kind of information, no matter how thorough we are in the review of these election results.

          I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again, though. So, who knows.

          •  yea but.... (none)
            So, here's how things will pan out.  Bush gets 4 more years.  Republicans control everything.  Even if we show that fraud is present, and ongoing, you really think Republicans will won't to shut it down?    Even if they appear to want to, or pass something that indicates that, you really think they'll stop?  We have to have Democrats in control of SOMETHING in order to effect REAL change in this system.  The way I see it, they stole 2000, they had four years to make their stealing of 2004 look less obvious.  Now they'll have 4 more years of it.  Unless Kerry becomes President, this issue will fade just like 2000.  Sure, we can keep bringing it up, but whose to say anything will happen?

            I really think our main focus right now should be getting Kerry in office in January.  If we don't do that, I don't see us winning anything for a long time...

          •  It would be an interesting problem... (none)
            if Kerry won Ohio but still lost the popular vote. Legally, he'd be president elect; he doesn't have the legal authority to just hand off the presidency to Bush, no matter how humble he might want to appear. BG It might be a very difficult and turbulent situation, in that case. But not one that he could resolve by turning down the presidency "for the good of the nation" (all that would happen then would be that Edwards would become president).
  •  By next week (none)
    a lot of people trying to squash this thread are gonna be freaking out.

    Heh.  

    "Conservatism makes no poetry, breathes no prayer, has no invention; it is all memory." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    by reef the dog on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 05:22:30 PM PST

  •  Quick note... (4.00)
    Zealotry on this issue will bury it faster than Rove could ever hope for. Focus, patience and thouroughness are needed instead. This needs organization like we had during the blockade of the mammoth Sinclair. A database of FOIA documents, polling comparisons, contact information, complaint filing deadlines, etc...one place, one focus for our army of democracy.
  •  Nader is now demanding a recount in NH (none)
    The Nashua Telegraph reports that Nader is now demanding a recount, alledging irregularities in the vote reported on the AccuVote Diebold Machines.

    Independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader requested a hand recount of ballots in New Hampshire after getting seven-tenths of 1 percent of the vote.

    "We have received reports of irregularities in the vote reported on the AccuVote Diebold Machines in comparison to exit polls and trends in voting in New Hampshire," Nader wrote.

    "These irregularities favor President George W. Bush by 5 percent to 15 percent over what was expected. Problems in these electronic voting machines and optical scanners are being reported in machines in a variety of states."

    How dare he demand a recount with only seven-tenths of one percent!  The nerve! People will say he's a sore loser and that will hurt democracy for decades to come. Come to think of it, thank god he has the balls to demand a recount.  He doesn't care if he's called ridiculous.  It matters more than that.

    •  God bless that silly, stubborn man! (none)
      Leave it to Nader to demand accountability. LMAO

      I don't care who requests a recount as long as the vote tallies and vote counts and evotes get some serious scrutiny.

      Karma happens and it would be the perfect RNC karma for Nader to be the one to force the issue.

      "As individual fingers we can easily be broken, but all together, we make a might fist" Watanka Tatanka (Sitting Bull)

      by wild salmon on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 05:40:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Donate to Help America Audit (none)
    You can donate, as I did, to Blackboxvoting.org's audit.  They are ON THIS.  With a little bit of money they can crack this one way or another.

    SATURDAY Nov. 6 2004: A new story, with documents, is going up tonight. It is not about vote fraud. Those are coming. This one is about a certification situation that looks like -- well, you'll see what it looks like. Now, in the area of voting machine fraud, we have experts looking at very problematic information in several locations, but will not release it until conclusions are independently confirmed, hopefully within 24 hours.

    Donate. PayPal, credit card, Wish List, address are at this link. Our mailing address is Black Box Voting, PO Box 25552, Seattle WA 98165.

    If you have signed up to volunteer for Help America Audit you will receive instructions by tomorrow morning. E-mail crew@blackboxvoting.org

    "Conservatism makes no poetry, breathes no prayer, has no invention; it is all memory." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

    by reef the dog on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 05:37:15 PM PST

  •  It makes some sense (none)
    When you compare the optical scan data to the 2000 election.  Bush outperformed Kerry on predicted votes by roughly 600k and Bush outperformed Gore on predicted votes by roughly 500k.  Bush beat Kerry by ~ 505k in these counties and beat Gore by ~ 251k in 2000.  Republicans had 100k net new registered voters.  Thus, the additional 150k in votes gained was probably from the 376k new independents registered.  

    In 2004, the difference between actual and expected (and difference):

    Bush  1,950,213  1,337,242  612,971
    Kerry 1,445,675  1,432,425   13,250
    Total Registered  4,725,026
      Registered Rep  1,807,055
      Registered Dem  1,953,380
      Registered Ind    964,591

    In 2000, the difference between actual and expected (and difference):

    Bush  1,430,399  1,505,003   -74,604
    Gore  1,179,896  1,753,856  -573,960
    Total Registered  3,846,755
      Registered Rep  1,504,682
      Registered Dem  1,753,974
      Registered Ind    588,099

  •  Reno? (none)
    I was glad that McBride won at the time. I thought he stood a better chance than Reno, what with the Elian fury and all. And Waco would have always been brought up in attack ads. Who thinks Reno would have won against Jeb, and why?

    The South has risen again. It is now the North's turn to secede.

    by Decih on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 05:48:17 PM PST

  •  Hacking an Election (none)
    If anyone associated with a major political campaign were going to hack the vote, they wouldn't do it this way.  Too crude, too slow, too likely to be caught.  They would hire pros, they would pay well for the skill and the silence, and only a computer forensic expert would have a chance of finding the truth.

    Talk to some real computer security experts, or read about some of the more impressive hacks that have been done.  

    They aren't going to open a db file and change numbers in the cells.  They are going to know the host computer inside and out.  They will have to know about audit reports--both overt and covert--and change those too.

    If Florida, or any government, adopted a voting system based on systems that do not have robust, redundant, and stealthy logging, and industrial-grade network security and other safeguards, the people responsible should be fired and prosecuted.  This story asserts that the central vote tabulation computer is a PC running Windows.  If that is true, all other problems are trivial.

    I've seen examples where pros hit a well-secured system.  They don't bang on the proverbial door and brute-force it.  They take their time studing the target, leaning eveything they can about it not just from a computer and network security perspective, but from a human engineering perspective.  The research is done from the inside, or via disposable proxies.  When they launch the actual attack, it is automated, using a script--not some guy sitting at a keyboard.  They are in in seconds, compromising system security and log files, installing rootkits, and out before you even know it.

    •  Yikes (none)
      Just thinking about that gives me the willies. Some perverse, zit-faced 16-year-old pariah could decide our elections, if they were adept enough.

      Would making the source code public put up any significant barrier to that? How do you keep them from getting in and out before we know what's going on?

      •  YES! (none)
        1. DISCONNECT the central tabulation machines from the internet and any phone lines.

        2. Open source the software. Security through obscurity (just hiding things) is NOT SECURITY. The best designed software will allow hackers to llok at the code and still be unable to break the system.
        •  So we need (none)
          open source code that can be independently verified before, during, and after, correct?

          What about wireless hacking? Isn't that still a problem, or do we work our way back to the open source code here (as in, we would see it being hacked if they used wireless technology)?

          •  It's a big problem (none)
            The source won't be given to anyone. It's considered "proprietary information" - belonging to the companies that made it. Considering this software decides our elections, this is ludicrous.

            The Diebold Software was leaked, as well as a myriad of other stuff. You'd be surprized how easy things leak. Even Microsoft can't stop it. You think Florida can? That's the good news.

            The software is running on Windows. Windows is the crappiest security software ever made. The actual voting software itself is trivial if it's running on windows.

        •  Open Source is not a Panacea (none)
          When it comes to voting machines, I'm in favor of some security through obscurity.  I'd like to see a vendor build a proprietary device, using a proprietary networking protocol (not TCP/IP) and VPN.  I'd then like to see them turn to a fairly large group of competent professionals in and out of government and have them murderboard the source code.  Finally, I'd test run the system and offer a $100k bounty for anyone who could demonstrate that they had compromised the system.  Finally, build in foolproof, redundant logging and network  security monitoring, including sophisticated, realtime, statistical analysis of the vote to detect unusual variation.

          All of which would be moot without the following:

          -- a paper record of every vote.
          -- professional election officials on the federal payroll.  If it's good enough for airport screeners, it's good enough for the foundation of democracy.
          --  observers from NGOs and international organizations.
          -- PAID official exit interviewers with networked PDAs with data fed realtime into the statistical monitoring system.

          •  You're hired (none)
            Well, I would if I could anyway.

            With all the complexities, though, it makes me wonder why we don't just go to a mechanical ballot marker (to do away with spoilage or intent issues) sorter and counter - sort of like the ones banks use to count bills.

            I know, I know, I'm a fossil in the age of technology...

    •  Just for the record (none)
      Watergate break in

      Hardly a pro job.

      "As individual fingers we can easily be broken, but all together, we make a might fist" Watanka Tatanka (Sitting Bull)

      by wild salmon on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 06:39:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Let's look at 'what' before 'how' (none)
    Well, it's true that break-ins can be done in a sophisticated way.

    But not always.  I remember the Watergate break-in.  That was a botched job carried out by bunglers.

    In any case, maybe it's best to focus on reported irregularities for now, and not digress.  We need to be systematic. Let's examine the "what" first. Then we can think about "how".

    •  They got greedy and desperate... (none)
      ...This was NOT a good job. I'd be extremely surprized that in the end, if this is fully investigated and persued, that Bush wasn't the only non-winner.

      Needless to say, this is merely my opinion.

  •  Longhorns were down 35-7, now they're up 42-35 (2.50)
    If that ain't a great omen, I don't know what is!

    Hook 'em!

    Election 2004: It's the paperless evoting machines, stupid.

    by Jonathan Ferguson on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 06:39:55 PM PST

  •  Nothing wrong with an investigation... (4.00)
    To all those who continue to tell us to give it up and move on, I ask, what do you have against standing up for your fellow citizens? Particularly the disenfranchised in FL, PA and OH.

    Consider this:

    1. There were record registrations in Democrat districts. GOTV was heavily active up to and including election day.

    2. There was intense anger in the African American community over the 2000 election

    3. There was fear in the youth community about the draft. They had a huge cultural push towards getting out and voting - Eminem, P. Diddy, The Boss, Pearl Jam, etc. etc. Larger than ever before in our history.

    4. Exit poll data showed a large Democrat turn out throughout the day

    5. People were still in line in Ohio when Andy Card pronounced a Bush win

    6. The provisional ballots had yet to be counted

    7. There are instances of missing votes and extra votes awarded by machines across the country

    How can we truly claim to care about democracy if we don't advocate for counting all the votes and ensuring people are able to exercise their constitutional right without interference?

    If it turns out more people really did like Bush, then we know we have our work cut out for us in O6 & 08. But we still need to fix the system that brought us 2000 and 2004.

    Jaded Reality... "freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose"

    by spiderleaf on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 06:48:04 PM PST

  •  The case needs to be made for verifiable voting (4.00)
    And this election, with the discrepancies and problems emerging already, needs to be investigated to make the case.

    If it proves the vote was hacked, that is just a bonus. But even if revealed to be the case, do not expect it to change the outcome. It would however cast a pall on the RNC and certainly take the wind out of "I got a mandate" Bush's sails.

    The first issue is and needs to be the fundamental right of voters to have their votes accurately counted and easily verified, especially in times of close elections and recounts.

    The second issue needs to be the right of voters to have equal access to the ballot box. Forcing voters to stand in lines in low income areas for 10 hours because their precinct only got one machine is inexcusable. Especially when the affluent neighborhood nextdoor had more than enough machines and only a 30 minute wait (this actually happened in Ohio).

    It is our right and responsibility as citizens to demand accountability, transparency, and equality when it comes to the fundamental right of voters to cast their votes.

    Please tell me the DNC and party Dems understand this. It is not just about winning. It is about our Democracy.

    "As individual fingers we can easily be broken, but all together, we make a might fist" Watanka Tatanka (Sitting Bull)

    by wild salmon on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 06:50:44 PM PST

    •  Unfortunately... (none)
      There is still to this day nowhere written in the constitution that every citizen has the right to vote and have their vote counted. This needs be changed, pronto, as well as no-paper-trail voting made illegal.

      Trust the government? Only in this day and age would anyone even entertain such a notion.

  •  Bush's communication with the press-- (none)
    Makes a lot more sense if you believe the election was rigged.  

    From the White House schmooze in, when he was still losing! on election night, to the non-news conference the other day, it all smacks of typical Rove/Hughes collaboration to sell the loser and distract people from what the real story is.

    Sick.  I am sick to my stomach, an optimist staring into the void.  How did we get here?

  •  If we can prove Rove is behind this and ... (none)
    we can prove that Kerry won, we need to get to work impeaching Duhbya.

    I have no desire to wait until January 20 to see that fascist tyrant turfed out of office.

    Election 2004: It's the paperless evoting machines, stupid.

    by Jonathan Ferguson on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 06:57:06 PM PST

    •  If we can prove Rove is behind this and (none)
      I'd just say if Dems were intentionally lying low after the most important election of our lifetimes until they compiled evidence enough to WIN their case with the public(and don't forget the repulsive media losers who have to both comprehend and properly present it), they've done so perfectly.

      If not, they're the saddest excuse for a political party in the history of the world (and they can't wait much longer to show their cards, especially after a solid report from Ohio showed Bush got help. But I am confident in one thing; the majority of the people  - the numbers would reflect - understand how wrong the other side has been, and they'll understand this).

      In a way it would be something noone in this country's seen, a full-blown dispute over the election. And it would be fitting for the republicans to have to deal with, especially the way things have been progresssing according to their playbook since the early 90's  - when the whackjobs really began to come on; the brutal attacks on Clinton BEFORE MonicaGate:TravelGate, WhiteWater, a BOGUS impeachment, a stolen election, and perhaps the worst, most disengenious reign (and followed by the most dishonest campaign) of any administration in American History.Here's hoping it happens.

      As for the poster who mentioned repubs sweating bullets, that's been striking to me. Bush is always a wreck but I saw nothing but apprehension in his appearances since he 'won.'

      I thought it was striking too how the first words out of his mouth are how he's inforcing the one question rule since he has the will of the poeple at his back.

      As if even those that for him wanted their president only to answer one question every six months.

      Then again they apparently approved a lack of response time of 27 minutes on the morning  of 9/11, so....  

       

  •  Please see my new diary (none)
    The large irregularity is in the electronic counties.  Nothing irregular about optical scan compared to 2000 (see my post above)
  •  Easily proved (none)
    Count each and every vote Nation wide. Double check...triple check... but do not use the main tally machines to total the numbers. Keep each precints vote tallies on paper and hand carry them to the courthouse where they can be added up. Then from the local level... hand carry the totals to the state capital with witnesses in toe... not letting the totals leave their sight...or letting there be any communication of said totals to anyone......witnesses to the adding. Seriously if there was no manipulation of the vote... there will not be a huge swing away from Bush...right?
  •  PROBABLY THE SAME FOR OHIO! (4.00)
    Add the Hartmann article to Greg Palast's article from TomPaine.com, and you have sure evidence of a multipronged strategy to steal the election: first, discourage and disenfranchise minority voters by a) challenging their votes, b) making them vote on provisional ballots, which may never be counted; then, c) use diebold vote tally machines to rig and adjust the results as necessary.

    Toss in the Yahoo story about Ohio's Franklin County error, which MAY WELL HAVE BEEN CAUSED BY CENTRAL TABULATORS rather than the local machines, and the picture comes clear.

    Two questions to establish the important facts:

    1. Whose machines tabulate in Ohio?
    2. Can anyone investigate the vote breakdown in Ohio, and find the counties where votes went counter to registration?

    This burns me up.
  •  Nationwide fraud (none)
    But make no mistake. The fraud wasn't only for the presidential election. I suspect there has been a wide variety of fraud for the Houses elections as well. Just think of it, the GOP actually gained seats there.
  •  question (none)
    Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Fisher really does have impeachable evidence that the Florida vote was hacked, and it was hacked enough to tip the state towards Kerry (and Fisher). What happens next? They can't ask for a redo of the vote. And they can't award Florida to Kerry based on what they think the results might have been if the vote wasn't hacked. Could this realistically alter the election, and if so, how?

    "This...this is the fault of that Clinton Penis! And that powermongering wife of his!"

    by CaptUnderpants on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 07:32:41 PM PST

    •  another question (4.00)
      What if you pursued a suspected murderer?  If you caught him/her, you would have to put them on trial.  Think of the time/bother/expense involved with that.  Then even if they were found guilty, would that bring the victim back to life?  And think of the incarceration costs -- prison food, jumpsuits, etc.

      The point isn't "will this hand Kerry the presidency;" it's "how can we ensure that future elections will be valid?" and "how can we take power into our own hands and prevent future shenanigans on this scale?"  

      It's a bigger issue than who sits in the Oval Office, though Lord knows Mr. Bush has disgraced it (and us) quite long enough.  If we let this situation drift, this ain't no democracy... and we ain't worthy of living in one.

    •  Yes they can hand Kerry the presidency (none)
      If the hacking involves the tabulation of opti-scan ballots, which are hard paper ballots and can easily be recounted.
  •  Tampering before election day? (none)
    See this link:

    http://www.theeveningleader.com/articles/2004/11/06/news/news.01.txt

    In a letter dated Oct. 21, Ken Nuss, former deputy director of the Auglaize County Board of Elections, claimed that Joe McGinnis, a former employee of Election Systems and Software (ES&S), the company that provides the voting system in Auglaize County, was on the main computer that is used to create the ballot and compile election results, which would go against election protocol. Nuss claimed in the letter that McGinnis was allowed to use the computer the weekend of Oct. 16.

  •  Attention, anti-tinfoil people! (3.66)
    Since  you guys are always going on about the need to use only impeccably nontinfoil sources, why don't y'all take a gander at the impeccable New York Times, which recently apologized to its readership for buying BushCo's easily debunked enormities regarding Iraq?
    Exit Polls to Protect the Vote
    By MARTIN PLISSNER
    Published: October 17, 2004

    WASHINGTON -- Since the 1960's, the exit poll, that staple of election-night television, has been used along with other tools to declare winners when the polls close in each state, and its accuracy is noted later when the actual vote count proves it right. A landmark exception, of course, came in 2000, when the networks initially gave the decisive Florida vote to Al Gore.

    But now exit polls are being used in some places to monitor the official vote count itself, either to validate the outcome or to mount a challenge to it.

    That has happened in several countries in the last year, and in the United States one organization plans to use exit polls in five closely contested states in November to measure whether there have been impediments to voting.

    Last fall, an American firm, whose polling clients have included Al Gore and John Edwards, was hired by some international foundations to conduct an exit poll in the former Soviet republic of Georgia during a parliamentary election. On Election Day, the firm, Global Strategy Group, projected a victory for the main opposition party. When the sitting government counted the votes, however, it announced that its own slate of candidates had won. Supporters of the opposition stormed the Parliament, and the president, Eduard A. Shevardnadze, later resigned under pressure from the United States and Russia.

    Full article here.

    Are you getting it yet?

    Four more years of peace and prosperity---not

    by stunster on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 07:52:20 PM PST

  •  Pres vs. Senate (none)
    What states show significant discrepancies between their Pres vote and their Senate vote?

    FLorida - Castor in a very tight race.  Bush wins in a blowout.  WTF?

    Or any state with a Governor race also showing significant ticket-splitting that defies common sense?

    The hackers might have targeted only the Pres vote and so there would be discordance as many ballots would be straight Dem except for the Pres vote, which would have been altered.

    •  More to do with Martinez ... (none)
      As a FL resident, I never expected that Martinez would get all of the Bush voters. We have a lot of confederate-flag waving yahoos in this state (sadly) and no way in hell were they voting for a Hispanic.  

      Whereas Castor has been around forever, is from the Tampa area vs. Miami, and is known as a moderate. Everyone was shocked she lost. Martinez is a hate-filled, foaming at the mouth bigot.

      He defeated his opponent in the Repub. primary by saying that his opponents support of a FL bill that would make gay-bashing a hate crime meant he was a "gay-lover" - sickening stuff. He ran against Castor on the issue of terrorism, 'cause you know how FL was attacked - or not.

  •  House of cards (4.00)
    This is the shakiest election in recent times (might even be worse than 2000 be proven to be).

    • Numerous activities - mostly against Republicans verifiably in many states by the Arizona firm - to prevent registrations of the other party, documented;
    • Documented misleading phonecalls about polling places, verified
    • A jacknife in the Ohio courts about pollwatchers which would be difficult for people to keep track of, verified
    • The introduction, en masse, of e-voting which a) has no paper trail (why??? this is absurd unless fraud is the intent, isn't it? read comments by International Monitors about it), and b) are partly produced by Diebold whose software made its way onto the internet and c) the owner of Diebold proclaimed he'd deliver the election to Bush publicly.

    This was before the votes were even cast!  Once the votes started coming in, many states which should have easily gone Republican remained too close to call, then radically shifted to their expected ground.  Complaints of malfunctioning machines came in large numbers.  Lines snaked down the street.  All along, though, the drumbeat still incredulously rang, "things are going well."  I wonder if this referred to the Hazmat scare in a NJ polling place?

    IMO, there was fraud - there is always some fraud on the part of both parties.  There also were numerous technical breakdowns, and a lot of confusion created by a record turnout at all levels of the election, confusion over, well, confusing federal law RE provisional ballots.

    Unlike the media has constantly hammered home, perhaps fearing another 2000 debacle from ruining voters' faith in the system, nothing ran as well as expected or as smoothly as reported.

    Focus on these issues - fraud is secondary and mires the argument in legal issues which given the complexity would take years to resolve, and if proven, result in a much more damaging blow to this country.  Then again, if widespread evidence of fraud is out there, leak it.  That'll be the only way to halt certification, but will call into question every election which used the technology that was hacked - at least 2000, and if its optical scan...

    If true, it would be an unprecedented constitutional crisis, but maybe it will wake people up to the flaws in the process for real.

    -doug

  •  Prod your mind (none)
    Here with a pretty comprehensive summary of reasons to think Bush cheated.

    Four more years of peace and prosperity---not

    by stunster on Sat Nov 06, 2004 at 08:37:34 PM PST

    •  Sunday NY Times on Ohio Vote (none)
      Not what we're looking for, I'd have to say.

      Also not 100% sure it was ok to post full piece here but figured others would want to see it asap.)

        Voting Problems in Ohio Set Off an Alarm
      By ADAM LIPTAK
      Published: November 7, 2004

      Andrea Mohin/The New York Times
      Voter turnout was heavy at this polling place in a Cleveland church, as it was throughout Ohio. Many voters in the state waited in line for hours. Voters in Ohio delivered a second term to President Bush by a decisive margin. But the way the vote was conducted there, election law specialists say, exposed a number of weak spots in the nation's election system.

      "We dodged a bullet this time, but the problems remain," said Heather K. Gerken, who teaches election law at Harvard. "We have problems with the machines, problems with the patchwork of regulations covering everything from recounts to provisional ballots, and problems with self-interested party officials deciding which votes count."

      Had the electoral math been only a little different, lawyers would be examining even closer finishes in other states.
      "If it was Iowa or New Mexico that held the balance," said Richard L. Hasen, who teaches election law at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, "we would be in litigation now." Mr. Bush won those states by one percentage point; he won Ohio by two.
      As it turned out, though, Ohio was the crucible.
      The state relies heavily on punch-card balloting machines of the hanging-chad variety. Voting machines in Ohio failed to register votes for president in 92,000 cases over all this year, a number that includes failure to cast a vote, disallowed double votes and possible counting errors. An electronic voting machine added 3,893 votes to President Bush's tally in a suburban Columbus precinct that has only 800 voters.
      Officials in Ohio will be able to reject some of the approximately 155,000 provisional ballots cast there, offered to potential voters whose names could not be located on local election rolls, because of the ambiguity of the standards.
      There were also long lines at the polls, and it is unclear how many people grew too dispirited to keep waiting and ended up not voting.
      "In Ohio," said Edward B. Foley, who teaches election law at Ohio State University, "there is a cloud over the process, even though there is not a cloud over the result."

      Democratic lawyers concluded that challenges based on these problems could not bridge the 135,000-vote deficit Senator John Kerry faced on Wednesday morning. A recount of the punch cards would have yielded no more than 20,000 votes, election law specialists said, and there was no reason to think that those votes or the provisional ballots would uniformly favor Mr. Kerry.

      Based on the Ohio experience, election law scholars advocate two types of broad reform: more uniformity within states - in registration lists, voting technologies and the distribution of voting machines - and replacing partisans with professionals in election administration.

      "Congress has got to try again," Professor Foley said. "We need more money for machines. We need uniform allocation of machines. And Congress has to develop a clearer picture of the process for evaluating provisional ballots."
      All these issues might have been before the courts if the vote in Ohio had been a little tighter.

      "We had cases ready to be filed," said Daniel J. Hoffheimer, state counsel to the Kerry campaign in Ohio. "If Senator Kerry had decided to really go to the mat on provisional ballots, the Kerry-Edwards legal team would have looked at all the issues out there."

      Most scholars and lawyers agree the main problems in Ohio resulted from technical failures and inadequate resources rather than partisan bickering in polling places or intentional disenfranchisement. But they said poor and minority voters may have suffered disproportionately.

      "There is a feeling here that the long-line problem was a problem of disparity that fell along socioeconomic lines," Professor Foley said. "There were isolated instances of long lines here in the seven- to nine-hour range, and the common lines were two to three hours. When your line gets to two or three hours, it's system failure."
      Even if the waits were comparable in poorer and richer precincts, legal scholars said, they might have had a disproportionate impact. If time is money, a long wait is a sort of poll tax, and the rich may be more able to pay it.
      The lines were in any case baffling, Mr. Hoffheimer said.
      "Although the turnout was not as large as the secretary of state had predicted," he said, "in quite a widespread number of precincts around the state, lines were horrendously long. At one time, one of them was estimated to be 22 hours."
      On Oct. 29, the Ohio secretary of state, J. Kenneth Blackwell, said he expected 72 percent turnout. His office reported that the actual turnout on Nov. 2 was about 70 percent.
      Election law scholars say too many decisions about the election process are now made by people who are partisan. Professor Gerken of Harvard took exception to the actions of Mr. Blackwell, a Republican.
      "He was making judgment calls that were simply implausible," she said, citing a decision, later rescinded, that registration forms on anything less than 80-pound paper stock should be rejected.
      Legal scholars agreed that changes to the system must be made behind what philosophers call the veil of ignorance - without knowing how the change will affect particular outcomes.
      For this reason, it is unclear whether the Colorado initiative that would have allocated the state's electoral votes proportionately was defeated on its merits or because it could have immediately changed the outcome of the election. Bush voters confident of victory in the state may have voted against the measure to ensure that their candidate received all nine of the state's electoral votes.

      For similar reasons, scholars say that if litigation is needed to clarify election procedures, it should be brought before an election.
      The election left many questions unanswered about its most significant innovation: provisional ballots, required by a 2002 federal law intended to restore public confidence after the grueling Florida recount. County election officials in Ohio are now determining whether those ballots should be counted.
      That will take some time, and the process has critics. In Ohio, for instance, four-member county election boards, each with two Republicans and two Democrats, will decide, with the approval of three members needed to count the votes. "Party officials should not be deciding who can vote," Professor Gerken said.
       

    •  I hope NC nails UniLect (none)
      Telling the county that the computer holds 10,500, when it only holds 3,005, constitutes fraud.

      Amateurs talk strategery, professionals talk logistics

      by Young Freud on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 09:13:04 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Uh-oh you guys, (2.75)
    Now even Kos has come out against these evidence-free conspiracy theories. Too bad you can't troll rate him, huh?

    Please (please!) stop recommending this compendium of misinformation and denial and have someone well known among you (whose diary would get recommended up) start a diary discussing how we can make sure there are the same ratio of voting booths to people in each district, that robo-calls are banned or at least monitored to a greater degree, and how to make sure that MoveOn and other such organizations implement more voter protection schemes AHEAD of election day and not just on it!

  •  If you (3.00)
    look at the trails for most of the naysayers on this subject...on this tread... these are people who have never posted before tonight or only started posting on 11/03/04 and after.

    There are some major trolls on this subject.

    They act like you are asking for money instead of their faith on the voter fraud on election night.

     Frank and Addison nobody's asking you to believe there are flying monkeys outside your window they are just asking you to be open minded that something stinks.

    •  Yes, you are right nob (2.20)
      You are absolutely right about when I started posting. I have already "confessed" to that horrid sin upthread...

      You mean to say Kid Oakland is a troll because he doesn't think we should use the word "fraud" for technical glitches or proofless conspiracies about prisoners being trained to hack into voting machines? Does this mean you think Kos has endorsed a troll? On his own site? Wowser!

      NOTHING stinks, not yet. Everything so far has been explanable (Florida Dixiecrats registered as Democrats yet voting Republican, etc.) if fairly surprising to those who though Kerry would win easily. The only thing that stinks is that it looks like we lost and more people actually voting for Bush.

      We can't start winning until we recognize that we lost. Otherwise we'll just end up doing the same thing over again, putting our faith in a new "cleaned up" voting system, and still losing because we didn't have the votes in the first place, clean election or not.

      Until there's proof lets concentrate on having paper trails and enough voting machines and things like that instead of obsessing that supposed fraud did exist even though there's no evidence.

  •  Jeff Fisher ... (none)
    Jeff Fisher answers his email.

    The address is:

    jefffisherforcongress@walkingwithfisher.com

    So rather than talk about him, I sent him a quick note asking him if he thought Thom Hartmann's story was correct, if he had been quoted accurately, if he thought the vote totals in Florida are credible. I asked him if he thought certification could be stopped.

    Just a couple of quick questions, in other words.

    He responded that he had been quoted accurately; that he thinks the vote totals are not credible; that he thinks certification can be stopped; that even if it isn't the Electoral College has the right to change their votes.

    He suggests that "having the entire nation revote is becoming a possibility."

    •  I was interested in who Jeff Fisher is... (4.00)
      Since I'm not from Florida and Fisher's opinion, I*M*O, is only as good as his credibility. So I checked out what onelocal paper had on file about him.

      Here's a bit, so you can get an idea for yourself.

      Experience:
      Worked on various political grass root campaigns, various mayoral races, U.S. and multi-state Senatorial races, several Gubernatorial races and seven (7) Presidential campaigns ranging in date from 1975 -2000.   Political Activism   Animal Rights (Feline, Canine, Bovine & Equine) Abused Women (Homeless & Domestic Abuse) Public Education ( New York,Massachusetts & Florida) ( National Education Program that will eliminate the FCAT) Epilepsy Foundation ( Boston) Civil Liberties (Election Protection) Peace Activist against the Iraq War 2002-03 Peace Activist against the Vietnam War 1969-72   President of Homeowner Association  Haverhill, MA 1994-1996  First Wellington Code Compliance Board Wellington, Florida 1998-2000  Entered a three person non partisan Village Council race in Wellington  two months prior to the Election in 2002 and received 12 % of the votes.      

      Endorsements:              
      Children's Rights Council (Washington D.C.) Bill McBride David Nelson Pending-Sen.Bob Graham,Congressman John Conyers and Howard Dean

      He seems legit, though his website--as with anyone who is pushing this--seems a bit incredible, by nature of the stance.

      I'm going to be watching with great interest, and some apprehension, to see how this all plays out.

      •  You know... (none)
        The more I look it over, the more I wonder about credibility. That's a lot of running and not a lot of winning.

        Just the same, Fisher ran in the 16th District and won 101,057 votes, to his incumbent opponent's 215,445. That's 32%, which is pretty typical of most of the Democrats who ran in House races.

        The only one who did significantly better was Schneider, who ran against Katherine "I'll get you, my pretty" Harris. :)

  •  Flip-Flopped votes??? (none)
    I'm a little late to the table here.I finally just looked at those Florida totals.

    Jesus. There are more Repub votes than registered Repubs in 60 out of 67 counties!! Are we really supposed to believe that 50-70 percent of Democrats voted Republican in many of those counties??? That is ridiculous!

    Ya know...someone should do that(i suck at math).
    Someone should figure out what the percentage of Democrats voting Repub would be in every county of Florida based on those numbers. That would be interesting

    •  Although (none)
      It's been pointed out, and rightly so, that registered Democrats voting for a Republican is not really grounds for accusation. After all, we were hoping for a lot of people to do the opposite.

      I agree it needs to be looked over, especially where votes outnumber voters, but I, for one, have come to the conclusion that we need to tread very, very carefully.

  •  Amish vote in Ohio? (none)
    I'm listening to NPR and they're talking about Bush's 'gay marriage' crap..and how those 11 states voted to amend their state constitutions. And they were going through all the various demographic religions that voted for the amendment and they also included the Amish.

    I always thought that the Amish, because of their religion, were considered a 'non' part of America, with no Social Security numbers, no taxes, no government benefits.....so if that is the case, why are the Amish voting?

    Honestly, I don't know the details about Amish citizenship in this country...maybe someone can add to this?

    •  Bush Wooed the Amish Vote (none)
      Martha Lapp hopes to vote for the first time in the US presidential election, in which the reclusive Amish sect that her family belongs to could play a key role.

      The 24-year-old's parents have decided the family will take part in the election.

      They are among 50,000 of the 180,000 Amish in the United States who live in Pennsylvania, where only a few votes could decide whether President George W. Bush or Democratic rival John Kerry wins the battleground state on November 2.

      Martha Lapp, in her black dress and white bonnet, left the family house to watch as the Republican president passed by in his campaign bus in July.

      Bush met 30 Amish -- descendants of Swiss-German Mennonites who fled persecution in Europe in the 16th century -- who offered the president a homemade patchwork quilt....

      http://breaking-news.news.designerz.com/reclusive-amish-could-be-thrown-into-election-battleground.h tml

  •  Linked article fails smell test (none)
    Picking one statistic at random (literally at random, I opened the browser, scrolled my mouse wheel down and clicked):
    In Baker County, for example, with 12,887 registered voters, 69.3% of them Democrats and 24.3% of them Republicans, the vote was only 2,180 for Kerry and 7,738 for Bush, the opposite of what is seen everywhere else in the country where registered Democrats largely voted for Kerry.

    A check of the Florida 2000 election results shows that Bush received 5,610 to Gore's 2,392. There's a substantial increase in Bush's numbers, but even the 2000 numbers are way out of wack with what the authors of the article would suggest should have happened.

    Which brings us to the question: What is the best control sample for determining if this years results are off, voter registration or past voter behavior?

    The article attempts to dismiss this, stating that similar anomolies are reported in 2000, and suggesting that the voter behavior of rural Florida should be the same as rural Pennsylvania.

    Frankly, the Pennsylvania argument is just plain silly, and completely ignores the very different history of the two areas.

    Skimming further down, the article mentions exit polling, but by this point I don't put much credibility in the authors' analysis, and cannot be bothered to read closely.

    I'm happy to entertain notions of a stolen election, but there has to be a smoking gun, and this isn't it.

    76% of dKos readers think I'm a secret wing-nut operative!

    by Gustavo on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 12:58:03 AM PST

    •  2000 v. 2004 (none)
      Looking at the results from 2000 shows a similar pattern of "Dixiecrat" voting in certain counties like Baker, Calhoun, Dixie, etc.. For the majority of the other counties, BOTH parties seemed to underperform and not produce the "expected number" votes given their registration numbers.

      That being said, I noticed a HUGE number of NO PARTY AFFILIATION registrations since 2004. DEMS and REPS registered about 450,000 new voters since 2000. This NPA group of voters increased by 500,000.

      Now it seems odd that in the wake of 2000, ground zero for the election, people would register NPA. Especially with such aggressive on the ground work by the campaigns. If these counties results were flipped in a "central tabulation" fraud, let's say, these numbers could be easily explained away the discrepancies, and perhaps distract someone from looking further.

      Just a thought.

  •  Coordinate Gathering of Hard Evidence --> (none)
    SEE Evidence..Irregularity/Malfeasance????.. & Have Hard Vote Fraud Evidence??..
    Help?  Trying to consolidate convincing cases in a few places (see links) on forums for review by regional MoveOnPACer who looks to boot it to the National Level.  We aim to review tomorrow, any chance you all might summarize and repost to my diary comments?  TIA

    Mission(ary Position) Accomplished!

    by luaptifer on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 01:25:23 AM PST

    •  Book (none)
      I've only posted once here but have been following this for weeks.

      I say a book as well.
      "How to Fix an Election"
      A step by step manual of proven techniques, with examples from the political events of 2000-2004
      --I've come up with a list of "strategies" someone could use to put the fix in: things like
      Create a Mind Set
      Set the Stage
      Manufacture Diversions
      Control the Spin
      Just organize your list of irregularities according to the strategy it serves.  A book, may also get some play in another venue--besides the nonprofits and could be done quickly if done by a group--I know a publisher. . .
      PSG
      (Actually, although jokey sounding above--I'm serious.)

  •  Election Reform (none)
    Even if we put aside the election fraud issue until hard evidence is gathered (and it is being gathered), we still have much, much work to do to ensure the integrity of our elections. Since HAVA actually served to make our elections much worse, I think we need to work on election reform at the local and state level.  Many of the problems in this election, though not all, were problems that can be addressed at the state and county level.

    A lot of voter education happened this time around.  This must be continued.  

    It became a big problem when hundreds of thousands of people registered to vote at the last minute, and didn't realize they needed to follow up on their registration status.  The counties, many already inefficient and outdated, were overwhelmed with new registrations and requests for absentee ballots.

    More people should volunteer to be poll workers.  Poll workers are always in short supply and there is no better way to be sure of election integrity in your own precinct.

    At the county level, seek office for County Commissioner of Elections.  When you oversee the county election process (and the conduct of elections IS a county process, not a national one) you can make sure that Democratic-leaning districts have sufficient voting machines and materials, convenient polling places, and well-trained poll workers to ensure that citizens are not disenfranchised.

    At the state level, pay much closer attention to who is Secretary of State, or run for office yourself.  The Secretary of State determined election law and practice for the counties on a macro level.  They have much more power than the governor, generally, in election issues.

    Pay close attention to who is running for office as judges.  The judiciary has final say in election disputes.  Are you looking at what kinds of people are making judicial decisions in disputed elections?  It's our responsibility to know who the competent judges are.

    I think there is a lot that we can do to improve the election process, while the evidence against Sproul & Associates et al is gathered.

  •  Statistical Evidence of Irregularity (none)
    Let us agree that the three (m=3) states Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida were the most critical states to win going into this election.  Suppose we accept that relatively small number n (with n less than or equal to m) out of 50 states will have a large number of irregular or suspicious voting incidents during an election.  It should be simple enough to come up with a strict definition of "large." Now assume that the the chances of any particular state having a large number of irregularities follows the uniform distribution, that is, the chances of being one of the n states with a high level of irregularity is the same for all states, and the chances of any one state having a high degree of irregularity is independent of any other state having a high degree of irregularity.  In statistical terms, this means that irregularities are independently and identically distributed. All of these assumptions are reasonable and consistent with the notion of a fair election.

    Thus, operating under the hypothesis that this election was fair, we ask the question -

    What is the probability of the n states with high irregularity being among the m states identified as critical going into the election?

    And we get P = (m/50)^n = (3/50) x (3/50) = 9/2500 = 0.0036

    So, the simplest and quickest inspection of results in this election yields strong statistical evidence that this was not a fair election and that further investigation is warranted to determine what actually occurred.

    •  My starz (none)
      I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. The statistical probably that the election has been tampered with is .0036? Is that right? Because that doesn't seem very compelling from a layman's (read: mathematical nitwit) standpoint.
      Or have I botched the understanding here?
  •  Does anyone know? (none)
    What would be required to check the ballots in a few "suspect" precincts and/or counties in FL?  It should be fairly easy to count the paper ballots and compare that count with the official count.  No need to accuse anyone of fraud.  We just want to verify the results.  The press did it in 2000.  FL is a "gov't in the sunshine" state.  Stop worrying about what happens next.  That will work out by itself.  Take a few places and get the evidence that things are either on the up-n-up or they aren't.  Then we can stop all the theorizing and accusations that are making us all look silly.
  •  Has Soros been introduced to Bev Harris? (none)
    Dean knows them both. If he hasn't already, can someone who knows him prompt him to facilitate something. A few tens of millions on attorneys could help immeasurably here. Some of those plaintiff's lawyers Bush wants to put out of business could be especially motivated....
  •  Suggest you change your wording (none)

    That comment about pointy sticks could be interpreted as a threat.  I wouldn't want the FBI to come knocking.   However much I might agree.
  •  System to Beat the Fraud (none)
    If every voter were given a receipt with a number after casting his vote, and votes identified only by number were then posted on the Internet, the kind of fraud here surmised would become impossible.  I realize doing this would make it easier to buy (or coerce) someone's vote, but I think that is a lesser evil.
  •  BlackBoxVoting.org article (none)
    Homepage below the fold

    SUNDAY Nov. 7 2004: We're awaiting independent analysis on some pretty crooked-looking elections. In the mean time, here's something to chew on.

    Your local elections officials trusted a group called NASED -- the National Association of State Election Directors -- to certify that your voting system is safe.

    This trust was breached.

  •  Markos & dKos community, I will continue.... (4.00)

    ....to strive to convince you and the other leaders in the dKos community to seize the opportunity to drive a Non-Partisan, major effort to rally all American Citizens to demand equivalent access to a verifiable, unambiguous process for selecting the President of our Nation.

    I have posted this plea and details at:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/7/102449/048

    It references a rationale and Draft declaration at:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/6/14313/8757

    Here is the current version of the Draft declaration:

    ==
    No one has been elected and no one will be elected, until we the People of the United States of America, are provided universal access to the same ballot format, until each eligible adult has had the opportunity to register and vote, until each ballot has been recorded and every ballot stored by the Library of Congress.
    This is our demand. We pledge to each other that until these measures are adopted we, the Citizens of the United States, do not recognize any form of National Election as valid.
    ==

    As of ~ 0930 PST, today, 6 Nov 2004, more than 180 "Kossacks" responded positively either to the polls I posted on 5 Nov 2004 [see "understandinglife's" on the 5th] or have recommended.

    I request you voice your support of my efforts to the dKos community in whatever way you consider appropriate.

    Whenever I make this request, in the truest spirit of attempting dialogue, I always recommend the diary to which I've added these comments.

    So, I am co-promoting your ideas, insights as well as my suggestions and hopefully this will be received in the spirit of saving our democracy that is my fervent intention.

    Thank you from a tireless citizen, for all you have done to create a broad, interactive forum for those of us who care deeply about our democratic franchise to strive to save, nurture and expand access to it.

    ====

    A man dies when he refuses to stand up for that which is right.  A man dies when he refuses to stand up for justice.  A man dies when he refuses to take a stand for that which is true.

    --Martin Luther King

    •  To ctsteve & Cap Ned; thank you &.... (none)
      I will persist because our core franchise has been severely compromised.

      All that Dr King and millions of others fought and died for is on the line.

      This is not a partisan issue. It is the soul of our Democracy, the beacon we have been for those, everywhere, who have sought a voice in the election of those who govern.

      We are a juncture not like any other since the definition of our republic. It is now time to take a stand.

      Please do anything you considerable reasonable to help convince the leadership of dKos to open my plea to the fullest scrutiny, evaluation and, perhaps, resultant broad support of the dKos community.

      Thank you.

    •  Who Agrees this is the largest (none)
      assault on democracy this country has ever had to endure?

      The blatancy of having 1/3 of our nation vote on unverifiable partisan republican owned easy-to-hack gizmos, the outrageously blatant, but well orchestrated, suppression efforts, and the silence on the part of the republican beholden mainstream consolidated media makes this:

      A NUCLEAR ATTACK ON DEMOCRACY!

      Hyperbole or fact?  Yes: Nuclear -or-No: Calm Down, Hold onto Your Hair?:

      Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

      by Einsteinia on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 11:22:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Cheney was Right (none)
        He said if Kerry won there'd be a nuclear attack on democracy, and in Lakoff metaphorical, frame-the-argument parlance, he's absolutely right. . . .

        Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

        by Einsteinia on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 12:21:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you for your support, Einsteinia, and... (none)
        ...I've just responded to some important comments received from asdf in kid oakland's diary "taking a stand."

        I'll post my response here, as well:

        What I am proposing is a broad discussion that would include comments like the ones you've posted.

        The ballot system, I envision, would remain under the control of each state.

        A standard system is one thing, it's administration is another.

        I see no challenge to state authority in adopting a standard system for the election of the President and Vice President of the USA, nor would I propose an administration of the franchise other than at the state level.

        Lot's of important alterations in the structure and operation of countries and corporations can happen, very rapidly, when a large number of stakeholders demand change. So, I do not support the notion that with aggressive leadership the resources do not exist, now, to we mobilize our fellow citizens and call a halt to the current disenfranchised status of our citizenry.

        The mandate that matters is Our Mandate as Citizens to admit no barrier, accept no excuse, fear no adversary when the core of our Democracy is being threatened. A handfull of patriots made it stick at the outset of the Republic and they did it without 'the internets.'

        So, what's our excuse, now, not to honor and protect what so many for so long have risked everything to provide us this opportunity to either do it or lose it.

        •  I've read your other posts and know (none)
          that we're in agreement.  As far as to what you are specifically suggesting here as a remedy is not completely clear to me.    You're not suggesting states leave the federation are you?  I doubt it.  

          We're in agreement that being gracious got us nowhere last time and we're dead anyway unless we act loudly and decisively for nothing less than democracy itself.

          If you're suggesting a central place to note and compare, I agree that's a first step.

          Hope I'm understanding you. , . .

          Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

          by Einsteinia on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 01:37:54 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thank you & answers to your questions... (none)
            1. I am suggesting a rapid development of a central place, sponsored here at dKos, to discuss a strategy to bring the disenfranchisement issue before all of America, asap.

            2. I am suggesting we focus on a system for ensuring verifiable, secure, and equivalently accessible ability to enable every member of our Democracy to participate in the franchise.

            3. I do not advocate in any way that the administration of be shifted from the States to the Federal government; I am advocating a standard system.

            4. I am not advocating illegal activity, civil war, secession from the union, or.....

            5. I am advocating a statement of Our Mandate As Citizens of the American Democracy -- we must mass, stand together, demand that the franchise be fair for all, and do that in a way never seen before and that we should organize and do that before 12 December 2004.

            I am pleaing that we bring this to the front and center of dKos because I think we can lead something of great importance with intensity, rigor and value for all Americans. I am urging that at least having a focused, intense discussion of the issue is at least as important as Soros buying Diebold or ..... .

            Thank you. Please advocate.

            •  I'm fairly new, and I don't know (none)
              how to influence anything on the DKos, but I have to say I'm really disheartened that as I'm writing this at 7:40 p.m. Pacific time, there's NO "voter fraud" recommended diary.  

              I'm 100% with you, but I think Kos isn't with us on this one, he mentioned his support of kidoakland's very "show me a complete irrefutable case first lest we lose our credibility" point-of-view, which presents a real catch-22 conundrum; however, I sense the majority of the community would like to an investigation forum on this hot topic.  After all, the wait and shut up road got us nowhere in 2000.  

              So?

              Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

              by Einsteinia on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 07:49:46 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  Thank you Kimberley. I will press on (n/t) (none)
  •  Why aren't we (3.66)
    Getting this message out to the mainstream media?  For what it's worth, I knew we had lost this election when Ken Mehlman (Bussh Campaign MGR) issued a statement around 8 p.m. est, saying that the exit polls had undersampled Republicans.  They were trying to justify the stolen election at that point.  Further, I just don't see John Zogby getting this thing so wrong.  Even the repugs internal polling was showing a defeat for Bush, look at his demeanor in the days before the election.  we can not let this go away, this is too important to future generations and elections.
  •  Here are the tables: paper ballot vs. electronic (none)
    These tables have been mentioned, but I didn't see the link in the posts, so ...

    Here are the tables that compare Kerry's exit poll and official vote tallies in paper ballot states
    versus non-paper ballot states.

    In a nutshell, the exit polls are fairly close to final outcome in PAPER ballot states.  But in electronic ballot states, the exit polls and official results are suddenly VERY different. And in nearly all cases, this difference goes in one direction -- in favor of Bush.

    I know this is basic, but it is easy to get lost in a sea of details and really this is so irregular and so obvious that we must focus on it and demand that the "major media" do the same. The burden of proof is on those who claim this is accurate.  THEY have the explaining to do.  We must demand it.

    Let's also vigorously support the gutsy Congressmen John Conyers Jr. of Michigan, Jerrold Nadler of New York and Robert Wexler of Florida, who as Wired News reported,

    asked the GAO to "immediately undertake an investigation of the efficacy of voting machines and new technologies used in the 2004 election, how election officials responded to difficulties they encountered and what we can do in the future to improve our election systems and administration."

    Maybe we should all agree to send ten messages to people in Congress telling them we want them to pursue this and that if they are are afraid of being Daschled, they had better think again because we will Daschle them ourselves if they don't defend our right to vote.

  •  Lest we forget (none)
    Exit polls are a good check against fraud.

    Four more years of peace and prosperity---not

    by stunster on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 10:32:13 AM PST

    •  Please stop this snake oil salesmanship... (none)
      And lack of proof is still a good check against bogus theories of fraud! How about that! And you've still got neither any proof nor any provable fraud! Still only terrible and misleading statistics and promises by blackboxvoting.com and Jeff Fisher! Even with all the disenfranchisement of blacks (through various means), the lack of polling booths in certain districts, etc. the elections were far more trustworthy than these supposed "ally" charlatans pretending to have secret proof.

      Honestly guys, especially all the manipulative "heroes" here who keep feeding the poor grieving people who haven't gotten past denial yet what they want to hear. "No, grandpa's still alive, the doctors may not have gotten straight A's, so we're not sure if the proclamation of death was right..." You're really being awful. If there is actual massive fraud Kerry's group will find it, or some media outlet will find it, or maybe even blackboxvoting will suddenly allo wus to see the marvelous evidence they have, but the sherlock holmes will almost certain not be a horde of overheated blogcommenters, gullible groevers, and bad statisticians.

      Look at the other diaries on this site doing good work in pushing papers trails and adequate voting booths per precinct. Which is more useful, and where are a blog community's efforts better placed?

      •  Chill out Addison (none)
        What your problem? This is supposed to be a place where folks can discuss this stuff freely. Why do you insist on fluttering all around and telling us we're crazy and in denial? Go to some other diary  and leave us alone if you can't stand it. Please! What do you care if we spend time on these issues?
        •  You're right... (none)
          I guess that's true enough. What do I care. I'm just worried that more and more we're reacting and responding to Bush's lies with our own and (like him) we actually believe them. But I guess you're right, and certainly no one is being dissuaded, so I'll stop.
          •  hey ADDISON ---- don't just stop ---FU*K OFF --- (none)
            go back under you bridge and count the days till what you want to hide is exposed . . .

            'It tastes like ... burning. ' -- Ralph Wiggum

            by trippinsf on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 12:51:00 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Thank you (none)
            If it turns out that no fraud can be proven, then people will move on.

            What's most troubling is that there could be systematic failures with the e-voting technology -- if that's fraud or simply lazy technology -- it needs to be addressed. I believe that THIS is what most folks are worried about.

            I truly don't believe investigating this is paranoid.

            •  Would you stand for a bank with no audits? (none)
              Well, what's most disturbing to me is our lack of common sense.  I was talking to my step-mom, who is an old-fashioned Republican from Minnesota in her seventies.  (She voted for Kerry, but hates to think the election results might now be called into question). She asked why do we need to have paper audit trails for the voting machines?

              I said, "Look, if you go to your bank and ask to see your statement and a history of your transactions, you can do so.  What if you went to the bank, and they told you had $698 in your account but that their system doesn't use statements and there is no way you can see information about your desposits or withdrawals -- and that you should simply trust their tabulations because their banking machines were "infallible".  Would you stand for that?"

              That convinced her it was a basic, common-sense issue, not just whining.

      •  Addison -- why are you telling us to 'stop'? (none)
        It makes you sound like ... someone who supports Bush.

        Why not simply disagree and explain why, instead of trying to make us "stop"? That would probably work better with the Kos crowd.

        They are not especially good at shutting up, especially when they are told to "stop".

  •  Link to CNBC Howard Dean interview with Bev Harris (none)
    Here's the CNBC Howard Dean interview with Bev Harris that demonstrates how easy it is to edit the voting results on the machines:

    http://www.coloroffire.com/c.mov

  •  The Fraudmeister speaks (none)
    Reading between the lines, anybody else think that Rove knows we're onto him?

    Four more years of peace and prosperity---not

    by stunster on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 12:15:14 PM PST

  •  New York (none)
    Many of the arguments I see hinge on the exit polling being accurate, while the opti-scan/computer based votes were hacked. How do you explain the New York exit polls v. final results? All but two counties used Levers:

    Exit Polls:
    Kerry: 62
    Bush: 36

    Final Result:
    Kerry: 58
    Bush: 40

    Bush made an impressive comeback.

    Unless Levers also employ a computer-based central tabulator -- in which case, please ignore this post.

    Ref:
    http://verifiedvoting.org/verifier/map.php?&topic_string=5std&state=New%20York

    http://slate.msn.com/id/2109053/

    Thanks

    •  I don't know much (none)
      about the lever AVM system, but a quick google located the following indication that this system can be prone to fraud - in fact the FBI investigated such a case in PA, @ 1979.

      From: New Yorker, November 7, 1988, ANNALS OF DEMOCRACY COUNTING VOTES, By Ronnie Dugger

      The dominant company now in the sale and programming of computerized vote-counting systems for public elections, Cronus Industries, of Dallas, is better known as its sole and wholly owned subsidiary, the Business Records Corporation (B.R.C.). Cronus/ B.R.C. has accused the R. F. Shoup Company, of Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania-one of its rivals for a fortymillion-dollar voting-equipment order from New York City-of infringing B.R.C. patents in the very D.R.E. vote-counting machine, the Shouptronic, that Shoup is trying to sell to New York. In a lawsuit filed last November in Philadelphia, Cronus, on whose equipment between thirty and forty-five million votes will be counted this year, has also sought to discredit Shoup, on the basis of a 1979 conviction of Ransom Shoup II, the president of the company, of two federal felonies-conspiracy and obstruction of justice-in connection with an F.B.I. investigation of an election in Philadelphia that had been counted on mechanical-lever machines. For these offenses, Ransom Shoup was fined ten thousand dollars and given a three-year suspended sentence. (Source)
  •  E-Vote Manipulation & Vote Scam (none)
    Found a report on vote fraud and tampering in US elections. Unfortunately the article is written in part English and part Dutch. However the English parts refer to previous cases of fraude in Bush Sr. primaries and elections with 'CIA' connection. Combination of names and companies is very legible.

    http://www.daanspeak.com/VoteScam06.html

    Useful links to English references in VoteScam06.html article through the numbers 1 2 3 4

    Quote
    ES&S maken fouten. Lees vooral zelf de lijsten (1 2 3 4) met ontdekte fouten. Fouten die in veel gevallen de uitslag deden omslaan in het voordeel van de andere kandidaat.

    Software stemmachines kan op afstand worden gemanipuleerd
    Unquote

    (Translated)
    ES&S makes errors. Read especially the lists 1 2 3 4 with surfaced errors. Errors that in most cases reversed the result to the advantage of the opposing candidate.

    Software of E-vote machines can be manipulated through modem

    I will find translation of specific lines. Anyone interested?

  •  Irregularities (none)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_Voting_Irregularities_and_Misrepresentations_in_US_Presi dential_Election_2004

    Scroll down to the maps of Ohio and Florida. Democtratic areas had the most problems.

    as if we you didn't know that already :)

  •  It is unbelievable to think (none)
    that the vote was hacked because it would be just about the biggest scandall in history. Do American citizens have a legal right to ask for a recount or a recall? What was that thing they showed in Michael Moore's film when the Legislators tried to petition after the 2000 election? It doesn't seem like anybody official is taking the lead. What can we do?
  •  Rove: "They simply could not be true." (none)
    The following is an excerpt from a new AP article: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=5&u=/ap/20041107/ap_on_el_pr/rove_election_wra p

    Rove said he felt sick, then got mad when he started reading exit polls on Election Day as Air Force One returned from a final campaign swing. Surveys of voters just leaving polling places around the nation tilted toward Kerry early in the day and through much of the evening, causing early optimism for a Democratic recovery of the White House.

    That faded through the night as exit polls were adjusted to reflect official vote tallies. But the exit poll was still tracking toward Kerry as the president's plane landed at Andrews Air Force Base in suburban Maryland after Bush's quick Election Day stop to thank supporters in crucial Ohio.

    "I was on Air Force One, and we were literally on final approach into Andrews," Rove said on "Fox News Sunday." "The phone connection kept cutting out. I was holding a piece of paper on my knee, trying to scribble it down, holding the phone in the other hand. I got sick as I wrote them down, and then when I looked at them, I got angry, because they simply could not be true."

    "I mean, it had us 19 points down in Pennsylvania. It had us 17 points down in New Hampshire. It had us 1 point up in Virginia," Rove said. "I mean, you looked at these numbers, and you realize, this is just insane."

    "Now watch this drive."

    by tompaine2004 on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 02:00:01 PM PST

  •  Help! IOWA weirdness, county by county (none)
    I just did a comparison of 2000 and 2004 Presidential results by county in my state, Iowa.  Bush gained in the range of 1-3.5 percentage points in most counties, with some +5 point gains, a few blip gains of less than half a point, a loss of percentage of the vote in one(1) county, Jasper. In Jasper he lost 1.56 points.

     It is painstaking but not at all hard to compare the data using the two links above.  Oh, yes, and turnout was up in almost every county.

    The electronic systems used in Iowa, county-by county, are listed here. The optical scan systems made by ESS are the most used statwide.

    I have no statistical background, I am not registered at DU, and their registration page is unavailable.  Can somebody post this stuff on the PhD statistician thread at DU?

    I do not believe that Bush could have held or gained his share of the vote vs. 2000 in every county. Not this year.

  •  They know we know (none)
     Karl Rove, quoted in the Associated Press today:  
    "I was on Air Force One, and we were literally on final approach into Andrews," Rove said on "Fox News Sunday." "The phone connection kept cutting out. I was holding a piece of paper on my knee, trying to scribble it down, holding the phone in the other hand. I got sick as I wrote them down, and then when I looked at them, I got angry, because they simply could not be true."

    "I mean, it had us 19 points down in Pennsylvania. It had us 17 points down in New Hampshire. It had us 1 point up in Virginia," Rove said. "I mean, you looked at these numbers, and you realize, this is just insane."

    So, did you get on the blower to your pals at Diebold to do something about it, Karl?

    Rove and Fox know we know.  They're already spinning like crazy to discredit the exit polls.   Why?   Because they know the exit polls tell the truth.

    Four more years of peace and prosperity---not

    by stunster on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 02:17:57 PM PST

  •  A single hacker (none)
    is all it takes to have thrown this election for Bush:

    Just one hacker.

    Four more years of peace and prosperity---not

    by stunster on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 02:29:23 PM PST

    •  paging all techies (none)
      I posted this on the open thread, but it doesn't seem like that was a very productive place to post.  This is related, so here goes:

      There seemed to be a lot of confusion in KO's diary/thread as to what constituted evidence of fraud versus glitches with e-voting.  The example I found most compelling was the Alabama governor's race in 2002, in which after all the observers went home and the polls were closed, 6000 votes were added to the Republican candidate's tally, thus reversing the votes.

      K.O. reacted by saying that this, among others, was evidence of malfunction, not necessarily fraud.  My question for techies is this:  is this being put forth by blackboxvoting.org as evidence because there is no explanation other than fraud?  And is that obvious to people with tech experience in a way it would not be obvious to a technophobe like me? (Please forgive my lack of understanding, I'm in the arts!)

      It seems like in that particular case we can eliminate voter error from the list of causes, as no voters were present.  That leaves computer glitches  (due to poor programming) and fraud as possible answers.  My question is, do computers spontaneously do things like add votes to one side?  This does not seem to fall into the category of votes being counted backwards due to hitting some predetermined limit, nor of votes being lost because of memory capacity, or the computer being turned off.  Also, wouldn't some sort of systematic, accidental glitch tend to favor each party equally?  In short, is there any explanation for a computer doing this other than that somebody told it to?

      If this is the case, then it would be helpful for us luddites out here to have that explained.  It's kind of like the "health care IS a moral issue" frame- it's not obvious to those of us outside the tech world.  Thank

      •  Even if.. (none)
        It's some miraculous "glitch" it's still completely unnacceptable and it's outrageous anyone would be moving on from this instead of pushing to get rid of the doubt and these machines.

        As far as i'm concerned, until we get rid of these or make the system accountable, we have no democracy, and I see no reason to participate.

        If this issue fades into the background and disappears, and i'm talking months not years, I am planning on leaving the country and not looking back and I will feel no guilt for it. You will wind up fighting a war that was completely preventable.

  •  Stolen! Fraud! Let's just keep counting... (none)
    Has anyone been able to confirm whether there are still KE04 lawyers in Ohio watching the verification and counts of the provisional and absentee ballots?

    I wonder if all our screaming and crying (me mostly!) is moot since there will be a recount anyway because the difference of votes is within the quarter of a percent difference?

    Does anyone have concrete evidence that the lawyers exist???

    Greetings from Miami Beach -- a very blue oasis, near a Starbucks, in a very red state.

    by Patsy Stone on Sun Nov 07, 2004 at 02:34:25 PM PST

  •  Union county florida (none)
    Something seems wrong with Union County

    In the 2004 Primarys

                             Republican voters              Democrat voters
    Senator                   499                                  2419
    Representative        491                                  2888

    In the General Election of 2004  total turnout is 4714

                            Republican voters              Democrat voters
    President                   3396                            1251
    Senator                      2816                            1632
    Representative           2834                            1592

    Don't these numbers seem a little odd?
    In the primaries over 2888 people came out and voted democratic but in the general election the top total is only 1632.  Where did the other 1256 democratic voters from the primaries go?

    Do you really believe that 580 people come out and vote for a republican president and not vote for a republican senator and a republican Representative?  Do also believe that 381 people would vote for a democratic senator and a democratic representative but not for a democratic President?

    What is going on here?  This County uses the hackable error prone Op-Scan machines is this evidence of fraud?

    Links
    2004 primary information
    http://election.dos.state.fl.us/elections/resultsarchive/Index.asp?ElectionDate=8/31/04&DATAMODE =
    2004 general election information
    http://enight.dos.state.fl.us/

  •  Undo the Coup (none)
    The mainstream media's alacrity to blame the exit polls without examining blackbox voting AND tabulation fraud (not to mention other forms of disenfranchisement, including not-yet-counted "provisional" ballots) suggests that our so-called democracy is rapidly becoming a sham.  Meanwhile, the military operation in Falluja to set the conditions for an "free election" compounds this insanity and reinforces the notion that the war in Iraq was merely an imperial oil grab (think about the possible reserves in western Iraq.) Of course, something other than a Nov. 2 coup could have threatened the plunder of Iraqi riches.  

    That said, thank God for the dissident voices that could still save our endangered democracy from ruin.  There has been mixed reaction to Nader's call for a recount in New Hampshire, but I think he is doing the right thing and, if his request for a recount is successful, could catapult the issue of vote count fraud to the bright lights.  A full recount in New Hamphire could prove that the exit polls were correct and build momentum.  Provisional ballots in Ohio won't be counted for some time.  Call me naive, but I would like to think that something big could break in Florida or Ohio before then.  And we very well might need ONE senator to step up.  If there are Democrats who are fighting these efforts and encouraging abandonment, then there will be a war within the party.  I say war because, yes, four more years will have effects on real battlefields.  We have to do our best to make sure every vote is counted and that John Kerry is inaugurated as president on January 20.  If the Democrats don't stand up for the people, then who are we?  A bunch of "neoliberals"?      

    •  This is insanity... (4.00)
      Kos, I've only been here a few weeks, but i'm an active democract, and as far as i'm concerned all these topics that have been made trying to ignore this MAJOR issue are as much as a crime. As far as i'm concerned, we have no democracy.

      This is fading away pretty quickly and it's really damn scary.

      •  Well (none)
        I understand your anxiety and frustration, but don't let it push your wig back too far.

        Now, I'm not trying to be condescending but I've been around this site for, ugh, well, let's just say a long time. Kos sunk a lot of time, energy and resources into creating a tool for democratic activism and discourse. But he didn't sign up to lead a revolution.  And although I disagree with Kos sometimes, I never forget that this is still his house. Believe me, you don't have to kiss the man's ass. But I do think it's proper to maintain some modicum of respect for him here. Furthermore, Kos, unlike so many people - our political opponents to name just a slew of them - has earned the benefit of doubt.

        If Kos is uncomfortable putting his private or public reputation on the line with as yet unsubstantiated claims of conspiracy to commit electoral fraud, he has that right. And even if Kos remains uneasy with the discussion of systemic vote tabulation failures, he has that right too. Don't take out on him the feelings of disappointment and righteous anger you have about the Democratic Party, or its leadership that hasn't stepped up to the plate. It's just misplaced, and that's reason enough to wag your tongue more gently.

        Okay, enough of that. These things happen, let it go.

        This threat to our democratic process, it seems, has been with us and growing since the eighties. So take a minute to scream a litany of expletives at the top of your lungs, weep for this great nation's future and then let that be the end of the freaking out phase. I think we may have a monumental problem here and we're going to need all the levelheaded help we can get to our hands around it.

        •  It doesn't matter if there was fraud. (none)
          At this point I don't really care if Kerry becomes President. What must happen is these machiens must be gotten rid of or made 100% accountable for the next primary or election.

          That is not a "tin-foil-hat" issue, there is plenty of evidence of their lack of accountability, and their malfunctions, and the ease of hacking them. He should not be afraid to come forward with such a claim.

          The sanctity of the democratic process is the #1 thing that the Dems should be standing up for. I don't see a single one with any power saying a word. This has been let slide too many times.

          •  Agreed (none)
            For the most part.

            I think we're just going to have to face the fact that those of us who see it this way are (sadly) in the minority.

            I honestly don't understand the reaction we're seeing here myself. We, "the people," lose a lot of our power to effect this democratic process if we, "the people," turns out to mean "that group of twenty or thirty people over there".

  •  Press Release by Jeff Fisher (none)
    I got this in my inbox on Friday because I own a small news web site (I'm on sabbatical to work on campaign). The contact is Jeff Fisher (I have phone number if someone needs it) Sorry it's long and I haven't read it. Just trying to get through my inbox.

    Press Release : Presidential Election Was Hacked By Florida Tech School
    Election Fraud Connected To Katherine Harris' Attorney

    Bay Point School is a juvenile correctional facility in the Miami area. Information has been given to the Washington Post that the Miami school is a suspected training ground in computer science and programming for juvenile delinquents who have trained in the art of manipulating electronic voting, without a true audit trail. It is believed that this activity is taking place not only there but in several schools like the aforementioned one nationwide. If true, then Bay Point School could be the Florida connection." It is possible as many as 6 states elections results have been altered by recruits from this school. www.rense.com

    Jeff Fisher through a confidential informant alleges that the school has direct connections with Joseph Klock, and that Blass informed him that his loyalty to Klock is more important than the truth about how the 2000 election was manipulated, and how it is possible for a repeat to occur in the upcoming November general election. Mel Sembler, a powerful fundraiser for the Bush Campaign in Florida, is someone who has knowledge of the activities at Bay Point College. We are sure the talented people of the Washington Post will release additional details in the upcoming days. Mel Sembler is Ambassador to Italy and a principal in several drug treatment facilities that are under investigation for gross mismanagement.

    Joseph Klock, an attorney who facilitated the release of Dr. Blass' son from an abusive treatment center. Mr. Klock was, coincidentally, the attorney for former congresswoman Katherine Harris who was the Secretary of State during the contested 2000 Florida recount which helped put George W. Bush in the White House.

    Details about this on going investigation can be had by contacting Mr. Fisher.

    We have reported previously on protests of Ambassador Melvin Sembler by the Uhurus and by the anti-Straight crowd. More recently BayWalk, Sembler's multi-million dollar shopping center complex in St. Petersburg, has been protested by StPeteforPeace, a group that feels the war in Iraq is illegal. What BayWalk came up with was an attempt to create a no protest zone to stop them. That plan backfired when the biggest protest ever took place at BayWalk recently, hampering businesses. StPeteforPeace was joined by the ACLU, the Green Party, the Uhurus, Coalition for Free Thought in Media, and many others, including two members of the city council. Even the St. Pete Times editorialized over Sembler's attempt to limit free-speech. The city council buckled under the pressure and dropped its hearing to create the illegal zones.

    --------------------------------------------------

    Pre-Election Press Release:

    A senatorial candidate in the 2004 election is suspected of suppressing vital information regarding the electronic manipulation of votes in the 2000 elections. This system of fraud, if still in place, can be used again in the 2004 general election this coming Tuesday, November 2.

    Dr. Piotr Blass, a U.S. senatorial candidate in the state of Florida, is reported to be withholding evidence which reveals details regarding the manipulation of votes using the names of individuals who have been placed on the felons list. This is the charge being leveled by Jeff Fisher, who is himself a democratic congressional candidate for Florida's 16th congressional district.

    Mr. Fisher believes Dr. Blass is denying the public this crucial evidence in order to protect Joseph Klock, an attorney who facilitated the release of Dr. Blass' son from an abusive treatment center. Mr. Klock was, coincidentally, the attorney for former congresswoman Katherine Harris who was the Secretary of State during the contested 2000 Florida recount which helped put George W. Bush in the White House.

    "Dr. Blass obtained this information when he was on the staff at Bay Point School," Fisher stated. Bay Point School is a juvenile correctional facility in the Miami area. "I was told the school is a suspected training ground in computer science and programming for juvenile delinquents who manipulate electronic voting, without a true audit trail. It is believed that this activity is taking place not only there but in several schools like these nationwide. If true, then Bay Point School could be the Florida connection."

    Fisher alleges the school has direct connections with Joseph Klock, and that Blass informed him that his loyalty to Klock is more important than the truth about how the 2000 election was manipulated, and how it is possible for a repeat to occur in the upcoming November general election.

    "This is unacceptable and, in my opinion, borders on treason," said Fisher, who was visibly upset that someone might help cover-up more election fraud in Florida. "Over the last few days I have been in direct contact with progressive investigative journalist Greg Palast of Gregpalast.com, with the information that was supposed to be delivered to Greg Palast," he added. "But the sender was told by Dr. Blass not to send it. I then informed Greg's senior researcher, Mr. Oliver, about this critical development. I have had partial information in my possession for the past three months. Unfortunately, Dr. Blass has prevented me from releasing it to the general public."

    Fisher stated that Dr. Blass claimed his ex-wife had their son falsely imprisoned in a facility called Growing Together, located in Lake Worth, Florida. "Dr. Blass implored me for help to get his son released, which I was able to do without any thoughts of compensation whatsoever," Fisher said. "Then, during the next few months, Dr. Blass began telling me of this vital vote tampering information. Together, we developed a plan to get this information to John Kerry, and Dr. Blass asked me to contact Mr. Kerry through Charles Figley, a campaign liaison."

    According to Fisher, those failed efforts influenced Dr. Blass to seek assistance from Klock.

    "Dr. Blass is obstructing justice by withholding vital vote tampering information. I would greatly appreciate the help of the American Civil Liberty Union or a competent vote fraud investigator to address a serious and potentially ongoing voting problem in Florida..

    more resources:
    www.Vote Fraud.org
    www.Black Box Voting.org

    ----------------------------------------------
    Additional recent news which may be relevant:
    Voting machine "error" gives Bush 3,893 extra votes in Columbus, Ohio
    http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041105/ap_on_el_pr/voting_problems
    http://www.firstcoastnews.com/politics/news-article.aspx?storyid=27161

    Olympia, WA county's software "error" means recount of 81,000 ballots
    http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=72382

  •  DIEBOLD, ES&S ORGS and AFFILIATIONS (none)
    Outstanding site to find ownership and political relations of VOTING SYSTEMS ORGS AND COMPANIES

    http://www.ecotalk.org/VotingMachineCompanies.htm

    VOTING SYSTEMS ORGS AND COMPANIES privatizing, monopolizing, & politicizing the voting process... around the world.
    The voting technology business is dominated by Republican-leaning U.S. and foreign corporations. Today, two Republican-controlled corporations, Election Systems and Software ( ES&S) and Diebold Voting Systems, and a British-based company, Sequoia, control about 80% of the vote count in the U.S.

  •  florida is whacked (none)
    check this awesome site out

    http://ideamouth.com/voterfraud.htm#FL

    •  please, please, please... (none)
      ... these projections are again based on voter registration, and as has already been discussed many times here, this can in no way be used as evidence of voter intention. There are many lifelong registered Democrats who have voted Republican in the last 2 elections. All you have to do is check the 2000 figures to see that most of these counties (esp. in the Panhandle) with heavy Democratic  registration, which went for Bush this week,  voted for Bush in 2000 as well. As i said in another post, this is in danger of becoming another 'Dan Rather's forged letter", a small mistake that clouds the public from the bigger picture. All a Karl Rove needs is the ability to frame the upcoming scandal in terms of "how could Dems make such a simple mistake as this" and it will all be lost.

      This is not the issue. Foget about voter registration. It's all about the exit polls

      •  But how does it... (none)
        Compare to 2000, and 2002? The exit polls are the #1 thing we should be considering, and while the dixicrat factor certainly plays a role i'm sure, i'd be willing to bet my life that they are still way overskewed even after taking that into account.

        I'd like to see a comparison, i'd do it myself but don't really know how. Has someone done so?

      •  Dixiecrats -the Republican Defense for fraud?? (none)
        Hmm .. yes, you and a couple of others post an auwful lot about Dixiecrats .. in fact, it looks like you've posted about little else BUT Dixiecrats.

        So, perhaps you can tell us ... when were all the Dixiecrats moved to the Optical Scanner counties??? 'Cause that's the only place where registrations and votes are so badly off.   In the other counties - mostly touch-screen counties - the party affiliation matches the votes quite closely.

        I've yet to hear anybody explain that away.

        •  Yes (none)
          You know, there were card carrying Republicans who voted straight Democratic ticket, all over the country, in this election - to teach their party a lesson. Why in the hell do we have Democrats suggesting that fellow Democrats would be any less disciplined for their own party in this deeply divisive election? It's not like there's no way to change one's party affiliation in the South. And I can't imagine why folks in the South would remain Democrats, given the seeming social support for Republicans, if they didn't damn well believe in this party's platform and mean to stand by it.

          It all fits too neatly into the cultural propaganda about Southern people being so filled with bigoted bile that they lose their wits and hold the South back.

          In other words, it reeks of conquer and divide.

    •  Statistical Data (none)
      I agree with Malcolm
      The graphs give a statistical view, clarity, I like that. But must not be based on unverified assumption. Comparison to 2000 vote on Bush-Gore and/or a ballot issue you know Republicans/Democrat divide was in 90-100% range of certainty would help.
  •  New York State (none)
    does not fit into the "opti-scan and/or e-touchscreen precints were hacked" theory. Exit polls were off by 4% there, too. but 95% of NY used Levers. Please explain. Malcolm is right -- we don't want to Rather this issue.

    NY is just a small bit, but the Repugs will use it against us.

    See previous post: http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/11/6/173431/313/435#435

    Also, does anyone have Connecticut exit poll data? cannot find it anywhere. I ask becasue CT used all Levers.

  •  Arizona (none)
    Does anyone know how "Optical Scan: Central Count" voting differs from "Optical Scan: Precinct-Based" voting?

    Can "Precinct-Based" be hacked? Becasue if it can be hacked, the Repugs would have done so in AZ -- unless they got shy in John McCain's home state.

    AZ used 100% "Optical Scan: Precinct-Based" voting. The exit polls matched the final results:

    Exit:     45   55      

    Actual: 44   55

    Does anyone know if central tabulators can be used for "Optical Scan: Precinct-Based" voting?

    Oklahoma also used 100% "Optical Scan: Precinct-Based" -- but I do not see any exit poll data for them.

    Ref:
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/3/588/31087

    http://verifiedvoting.org/verifier/map.php?&topic_string=5std&state=Arizona

    http://verifiedvoting.org/verifier/map.php?&topic_string=5std&state=Oklahoma

    •  Diebold SCOOP (none)
      IS ANYONE AWARE OF THIS SITE ???

      The Truth About the Rob-Georgia File
      By Bev Harris

      Scoop.nz Diebold System

      "If the GEMS computer isn't connected to anything, why is the following diagram found in a file named GApresentation3-02.zip, found on the Diebold ftp site? This diagram depicts the GEMS computer connecting directly to the Internet on election night."

      .
      Inside A U.S. Election Vote Counting Program

      Scoop.nz GEMS security

      CAN THE VOTES BE CHANGED?
      "Remember that there are two programs: The GEMS program, which the Election Supervisor sees, and the Microsoft Access database that stores the votes, which she cannot see."

      Detailed Examination Of Diebold GEMS Voting Machine Security

  •  The latest from Jeff Fisher ... (none)
    is here.

    I think it merits examination and discussion, though obviously there is some disagreement in the community about that. Still, I made it a new diary, as this one is, for practical purposes, both full and a week old.

jcbhan, Kimberley, reef the dog, AP, edverb, slappy1218, Thalia, Tripleg, Thumb, wdball, onegoodmove, Grassroots Mom, M Aurelius, wilderness wench, Joe Bob, 007, Athena, John Masotti, pb, writerCarl, kn74, Irfo, sparks, Lush, Hiram, imrdkl, scarshapedstar, cwkraus4clark, assyrian64, gogol, mimi9, joejoejoe, bob in ny, moon in the house of moe, Margot, timber, markusd, Natural Anthem, RHunter, Em, lrhoke, queerbklynboy, hardleft, Pandora, ground, Groper, peglyn, mattman, Alan S, wytcld, sphealey, superfly, drug free radio, doug r, lebowski, michael in chicago, Liberal Warrior, Coldblue Steele, JerDewitt, Astral, CaptUnderpants, tacet, kelvinchapman, byoungbl, DCDemocrat, Calee4nia, Motor City Canuck, cybo, etatauri, GWBblows, DEA, Pluto1618, Pompatus, BinaryDaisy, ashke, DFWmom, whozat, pseudomass, lawnorder, marjo, Luam, lilorphant, lesliet, voltayre, Muboshgu, Carnacki, MFL, Sandia Blanca, madwayne, nightsweat, thecarriest, hatter, EJR, CatNC, mrCurmudgeon, copyboy, jetfan, Cupcake, KariQ, DJ Adequate, eyeswideopen, Worship Your Toaster, mrsdbrown1, Cranston Dem, maskling11, tsurube, joyous, lawwoman, tyler93023, Ash Tree, randym77, redfloatboat, concernedamerican, geneticdem, gerbbils, Glickman, super simian, Slacker Gal, Ted W, buddywally, lmiller42, Helena Handbag, indybend, nathan2480, benhiller, bonddad, chi mai, SwingVoter, newsouth, brooklynben, understandinglife, hidalgo, Juan Pablo, sja, jos, BlogginBob, Mountaineer, rukkus, Scan Hopper, weirdscenes, matt27, shipyardian, DreamOfPeace, Minerva, potmo, fishwars, KJS, gayntom, political, BornAgainLiberal, WagePeace, repeat, Nicholas Phillips, aftk2, 28whitman, allysonsta, anoodle, Lucyeth, Aethern, warbly, Pintlala, marylrgn, FLPeach, VinceDee, GinnyfromWI, zaimokoya, CodeTalker, a2jean, bribone, oortog, Steve in Ohio, kolly, sngmama, Sans Culottes, VermontDem, NonemptySubset, mystified, erquirk, bustacap, Yomberto, asonetuh, UniC, halfgeek, kerry swag, deres002, LawStudent

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