Daily Kos

14 Americans dead, and counting, in Iraq

Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 09:43:25 AM PDT

Not a good couple of days in Iraq.
U.S. Army troops, Marines and some Iraqi forces punched their way through and past the center of Fallujah on Tuesday, but at least 3 U.S. soldiers lost their lives and more were wounded in battles with Sunni extremists. 

The fighting in the city and elsewhere in Iraq has cost the United States at least 14 lives over the past two days, according to Pentagon figures. Eleven died on Monday, most in attacks outside Fallujah, marking the highest one-day U.S. toll in more than six months.

Outside Fallujah, meanwhile, insurgents kept up attacks on Tuesday. Raids on police stations in and around the city of Baqouba reportedly killed 45 people, most of them police. The attack was claimed by the terror group led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, according to an Islamic Web site [...]

In Fallujah, U.S. troops found lighter-than-expected resistance in the Jolan neighborhood, according to NBC's Kevin Sites, who is with one Marine contingent. Sunni extremists were thought to be holed up in Jolan, a warren of alleyways in northeastern Fallujah where the assault began.

But heavy street clashes were raging in other northern sectors of Fallujah amid fierce bursts of gunfire, residents said. At least two American tanks were engulfed in flames, witnesses said.

Small bands of guerrillas -- fewer than 20 -- were engaging U.S. troops, then falling back in the face of overwhelming fire from American tanks, 20mm cannons and heavy machine guns, said Time magazine reporter Michael Ware, embedded with troops. Ware reported that there appeared to be no civilians in the area he was in [...]

But a wounded U.S. soldier told a Reuters reporter Tuesday that he had seen 50 wounded comrades. "A buddy of mine and another soldier were killed and I have seen about 50 other wounded (U.S.) soldiers since the fighting began," he said while awaiting medical evacuation from the city. He declined to give his name.

A U.S. military ambulance driver also said he had witnessed many casualties.

Lighter than expected resistance. Small bands of 20 insurgents.

The main rebel force is long gone. And those that are left are either in hiding, or slipped out of the city under cover of darkness. Remember, Fallujah is the size of Cincinnati. Slipping in and out is a cinch in a city that large, and no blockading force, especially  one as small as the one in Fallujah (15-20,000 troops), could completely seal the city.

Again, once we take this city (and there was never any doubt we would), the US is faced with one of two unpalatable options:

  1. Withdraw and leave the Iraqis in charge, which would be the same as leaving the insurgents in charge; or

  2. Stay, garrison the city, and face a steady stream of car bomb and sniper attacks.

(NYT Fallujah slide show).

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Permalink | 121 comments

  •  Slide show (none / 0)

    requires registration at NYT
    •  bugmenot.com (none / 0)

      sorry, some what off-topic, but may be useful.

      www.bugmenot.com is your friend :) there is also a firefox extension that hooks in as well.

    •  Yahoo Slide show (none / 0)

      Is here
    •  Incredible Photos (none / 0)

      worth registering at the Times in any event.  Brave people armed with only cameras.
      •  yep (none / 0)

        great work from Anja Niedringhaus, Ashley Gilbertson, Stefan Zaklin, and Scott Nelson

        The Poorest of All Men is not the man without a cent but the man without a dream.

        by EMKennedyLucio on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 10:03:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Lopsided (none / 0)

        All we're seeing is the marines' side.
        •  that's not the fault (none / 0)

          of the journalists, you know people who cut your head off don't deserve balanced journalism....

          (I'm talking about the heads of journalists )

          Ours may in this event not be the angelical, pure good side, but the others are terorrists and idiots ( tell me about freedom fighters in the last 100 years who killed journalists...it's against their interest, so logically these are not freedom fighters ) .

          •  Fair & Balanced (none / 1)

            Granted that I'm not a big fan of those kidnapping westerners, but I think you're simplifying things somewhat.  There are many different groups that are opposed to the U.S. in Iraq, and only a very few of them are cutting off people's heads.

            Christopher Allbritton is one non-embedded reporter who visited Falujah about a month ago.  He was treated very well by the insurgents who presented themselves as anti-US and by extension anti-Allawi.  Considering that many in Iraq think that Allawi is a puppet (we did, after all, write his recent speech for him), one can understand if they aren't all that thrilled with their current government.  Unless these people were replaced by other insurgents, then these aren't the folks who are cutting off heads.

            Anyhow, this just brings home the point.  Other than embedded journalists, we have no information about who is there.  So we either have to take it on faith that our embedded reporters are reporting everything in a balanced manner ( which is virtually impossible considering their vantage point ) or we should be credulous about what we hear in the news.

            This administration has sought to vilify anyone (including Reagan-era conservatives) who stand in their way or criticize them in the slightest.  What makes you think that they won't try to paint everyone who is against the US with the same brush?

  •  Good thing that we waited until... (3.75 / 4)

    after the election.  We must have caught them by surprise </sarcasm>

    "Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants" Justice Louis Brandeis

    by mlangner on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 09:44:58 AM PDT

  •  At what point (none / 0)

    Does this reach critical mass?  The supposed "line of support" for the American public was 1,000 casualties, a number we passed long ago.  Iraq shows no signs of getting better, the internal security forces are overwhelmed, and there isn't a decent end in sight.  At what point does Red America decide that the price isn't worth paying?

    Just another 2L in the court of life...

    by BrodyV on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 09:46:23 AM PDT

    •  Red America doesn't really... (none / 1)

      care.  Just so long as they are told that we are "kicking ass" they will be happy... that is until a family member or friend is killed, then its a toss up as to whether they flip to the "reality based community" or retrench in their faith based hole.

      Unfortunately this is an exceptionally costly way of changing the hearts and minds of Americans...

       

      "Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants" Justice Louis Brandeis

      by mlangner on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 09:49:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  probably never (4.00 / 2)

      i'd be curious to see what percentage of troops are from "red america" and what percentage of those troops comprise the 1000+ deaths (and even more casualties) that have occurred thus far.

      if it's a rather small amount, i'd wager to say that they'll just keep on not caring b/c obviously they are more concerned about two men being married then people dying for an unjust war.

      if it's a large amount, well, you've got me then. i think it just further shows the divide on what's important to people. i'd also wager that the general public being misinformed (ie: still thinking iraq has wmds, 9/11 ties, etc) plays a huge role in this b/c they think their sons/daughters are fighting the good fight.

    •  During The Vietnam War (4.00 / 5)

      Hundreds of our soldiers were killed every week for about two years, and not many people seemed to care.  The anti-war movement was very vocal, but it claimed the allegiance of probably no more than a quarter of the public (and I'm probably being generous) by the end of 1967.  People didn't start to take notice until the Tet Offensive, by which time some 15,000 Americans were already dead.  And what really caught their attention at that point was the fact that the enemy, which we had been told for a good 18 or more months was on the verge of collapsing, had staged this audacious attack that was beaten back at a huge price in lives.

      So while I hate to come to the conclusion that people really don't care, they didn't seem to back then, and they don't seem to now.  As long as it's someone they don't know suffering the consequences, this war can go on forever as far as most of the public is concerned.

      "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

      "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

      by JJB on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 10:08:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's going to take (4.00 / 2)

        the same thing it took during Vietnam - a realization and CONFESSION BY THE MEDIA that they were misled into supporting and defending the war, and that the Johnson and Nixon administrations were lying.  That didn't even end it, but it certainly gave the anti-war movement greater legitimacy and exposure.

        When "stupidity" suffices, why search for any other reason?

        by wozzle on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 11:09:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  yes, but we have the national guards and reserves (none / 0)

        'Nam was all regular armed forces filled with draftees and careerists. here, we have the local people next door. This will get different as  they return home. Hopefully.
        •  Those Draftees (none / 0)

          Were "the local people next door," fresh out of high school most of them, and unable to go to college for one reason or another.  And I'd wager they made up a far higher percentage of the men who saw combat than the Reserves and NGs currently do.

          "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

          "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

          by JJB on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 11:51:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  We don't seem to be a country at war (none / 1)

        I live in Canada and frequently come down to the States for conferences and vacations.  The last two times this fall were in the Bay area and Virginia.  In neither case did it seem like people really believed they were at war.  Only the intellectuals do.  It is somewhere else, fought by people they don't personally know.  Sure, there are a lot of trucks with yellow ribbons on them, but the general sense is that we are not in conflict.  When you think of the financial costs bearing down on us, the disconnect is incredible.  I remember talking to a German farmer in Bavaria a quarter of a century ago, who told me that the War wasn't so bad -- they had goods and food right down to the end. Things went sour for his family only with the Occupation.

        The crunch will come next summer when the manpower starts to run out.  Even with higher signing bonuses, it is difficult to think that young people will deliberately sign up to be maimed.  The Guard reenlistments are falling off rapidly.  The moment of truth will come when they announce a selective draft.  Even this might not work, since the draft will not be general, but will instead pick out certain kinds of skills.  This keeps it under the radar.  We will be a long time in this war.

    •  1,000 US deaths? (none / 1)

      Hell, we just passed that many since "Mission Accomplished"!

      Prior to Commander Codpiece's stunt there were 138 US deaths in Iraq. I think we passed 1138 yesterday.

      "I was so easy to defeat, I was so easy to control, I didn't even know there was a war." -9.75, -8.41

      by RonV on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 10:20:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  NEXT from the Committee on the Present Danger (none / 0)

      Clear and Present Danger
      The hawks relaunch a Cold-War relic.

      By Jaideep Singh
      Committee on the Present Danger . . review in Washington Monthly

      http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0411.singh.html

      "Norman Podhoretz of the neocon flagship journal 'Commentary' and still-vigorous, who comes to the podium to wonder out loud why everyone is so riled up and surprised about the casualties and the cost of the 'battle' of Iraq, of which most of the committee's members have been inveterate supporters. It 'drives me nuts', he tells the audience, when he hears people complaining about the financial burden of the war or the steady drip of casualties."

      TURN RED AMERICA BLUE FOR CHRIST's SAKE

    •  They don't know what to think. (none / 1)

      A hard-core Red Stater here at work is quite perplexed about all this.  He admits that he is all for this war, but he's at a loss to explain why it's not going our way.  Alas, he feels that we are pursuing the only viable course of action in Iraq, so, at least as far as he's concerned, what we're seing now is as good as it gets.

      Shorter Red State position: we have to maintain the status quo and damn the costs.

      veritas vos liberabit

      by WWGray on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 11:47:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Website? (none / 0)

    Isn't there a website with the names of soldiers who have died recently?  I want to make sure several people I know are not on the list.

    "You can't expect people to have the virtue of purity when they are poor." -Bob Dylan

    by tryptamine on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 09:47:12 AM PDT

  •  And . . (4.00 / 3)

    And what has been accomplished by this bold, decisive action?  From the MSNBC report:

    The drive to retake Fallujah risked alienating further many Iraqis. A prominent Sunni party, the Iraqi Islamic Party, announced it was pulling out its single Cabinet member, Industry Minister Hajim Al-Hassani, from the Iraqi government in protest against the Fallujah assault.

    And a powerful group of Sunni Muslim clerics called Tuesday for a boycott of national elections. Harith al-Dhari, director of the Association of Muslim Scholars, said the elections were being held "over the corpses of those killed in Fallujah and the blood of the wounded."

    Brilliant strategy Chimpy.  You're deep in a hole, so just keep digging till you get to hell.  Now you have a way out.

    •  Oh and . . . (4.00 / 3)

      btw, the two day count of U.S. dead is already up to 16 -- and that's what they're admitting to.  One soldier interviewed in a field hospital said he had seen 50 wounded.  Arab reporters in Fallujah report seeing numerous U.S. armored vehicles in flames.  Yes, most of the insurgents apparently left but enough of them stayed to extract a price.
      •  But "lighter than expected resistance"? (none / 0)

        So wait a minute. On the one hand, we're seeing lighter than expected resistance, but on the other hand we're suffering severe casualties.

        What is going on? Just exactly how many soldiers did Bush think we'd lose when we decided to push into Fallujah?

      •  Two Way Up North (none / 1)

        According to Aljazeera, two of the killed were way up north in Mosul. They also report that insurgents have taken over control of the center of Ramadi (according to AFP reporter).

        There's a hell of alot more than 3,000 insurgents and they sure as hell aren't all in Falluja.

        Last time supply lines started getting hit west of Bagdad. Can't imagine that won't happen again.

        •  what I would do (none / 1)

          if I were an insurgent would be to get the fuck out of dodge as soon as the buildup for the attack started, and then when the attack started, hit the enemy throughout the country, everywhere but the main target.

          I can imagine that's what we're going to see.  There's no way to win this war.

          Heard the other day that deaths in hospitals outside Iraq aren't counted as combat deaths, so our actual figure is about 3x higher than the 1100 or so we have no.  Is that correct?

          Qui faciant leges ubi sola pecunia regnat? -- Petronius

          by Karl the Idiot on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 10:12:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  what's stopping... (none / 0)

            say the insurgents did leave the city, what's preventing them from sweeping back around once the troops are inside and attacking that way? it would exactly what the commanders thought would happen (a gathering in the middle), but this time it would be our troops stuck there.
    •  Ah... Strategery... (none / 0)

      I knew we forgot something when we started this whole fiasco...

      "Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants" Justice Louis Brandeis

      by mlangner on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 09:50:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I want my money back... (4.00 / 3)

    Seriously.  All of those tax dollars spent at military colleges for all of those years and we still haven't learned that you cannot fight an asymetrical war with WWII tactics.  This is the definition of insanity.  The only way you can beat a guerilla insergency is to poison the ocean they swim in.  There are two options:

    1. Ruthlessness.  This option basically puts an iron fist on the populace.  Destroy anybody or anything that even smells like it supports the resistance.  In this case, we would be better to just bomb Fallujah back to the stone age.  Anybody left should be sumarily and publicly executed.  I don't think even the most rabid right-wingers would seriously go for this option.

    2. Hearts and Minds.  Win over the populace so that they no longer support the insurgance.  I think this ship has long sailed.

    What we are trying now is some half-assed carrot and stick approach.  All it is going to do is increase the insurgancy and the Iraqis distane

    When Bush visits Europe, they burn American flags and spit insults for America. When Obama visits Europe, they wave American flags and sing America's praises.

    by RichM on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 09:49:27 AM PDT

    •  wait (4.00 / 2)

      Didn't we try to do both of those things in Vietnam and SE Asia more generally?

      We lost there too.

      We never had a chance to win this war.  The only positive is that so long as we're losing in Iraq, we can't attack any place else.  Unless the Thugs decide that the best way to get back Bush's 80% approval is to attack someplace else, daring a complete collapse of the military as a way to shore up support for Bush.  Would Rove suggest such a thing?

      Hell yeah.  So we might hit Iran with the expectation that we'd lose.

      Qui faciant leges ubi sola pecunia regnat? -- Petronius

      by Karl the Idiot on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 10:14:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It can work. (4.00 / 2)

        Fron 1948 to 1960 the British were fighting a Communist insurgency in Malaysia.  In their case, the problem was a bit easier than Vietnam because it was mostly Chinese fighters (as opposed to native Malaysian) making up the enemy force.  Still, they put down the guerillas by doing the carrot and stick thing.  They set up "strategic hamlets" that they protected for local populations, which forced the communists to attack entrenched defensive forces who had greater firepower.  Because the civilians were protected in what were, essentially, forts, other military units could go into the jungle and hit the communists directly.

        This also, of course, allowed the British and allied forces to control the flow of potential supplies and information.

        The Americans tried to use the same technique in Vietnam but couldn't do it.  The problem there, aside from the fact that the communists could blend in easier (they were also Vietnamese, after all) was that it was a half-assed approached.  When the British decided that was the route they were going to take, they laid down the law on everyone at the same time, and then made sure they provided security, an economy, social services and such.  Stick and then carrot.

        •  Good analysis (none / 0)

          and I think the upshot is that the US won't be able to do the same here, having neither the popular domestic support necessary for using the stick (quite rightly the antiwar movement and human rights groups would never stand for it) nor any taste for wielding the carrot in a meaningful way.
          •  It's too late for the stick (4.00 / 2)

            The stick should have been used starting the day the Americans crossed the border.  It should have been wielded by a lot more troops whose only job wasn't to participate in a mad rush to Baghdad or battle intact enemy units, but provide security.  They see someone looting, or trying to kidnap someone or something else?  Arrest them on the spot or shoot them.  Impose martial law immediately, strict curfews, the whole deal.

            It may seem harsh but it (a) reduces the chances of an insurgency getting organized and (b) provides security for the civilian population.  Sure, you run the risk of getting arrested for being on the street after dark, but at least you don't have to worry so much about someone breaking into your shop.  And it's not arbitrary.

            Once the stick is in place, then you can use the carrot to get supplies in, get utilities running and so on.

            As I've said before, the main problem was that the US planning was thinking of this as a tactical battle against an army rather than as the conquest of a country.

            •  conquering iraq (none / 0)

              my sense is that the only misunderstanding was in estimation on how easy it would be to conquer iraq... conquest was the only goal...ever... despite all of merde they sprayed on us...the only lie they told ...and that themselves really believed... was that iraq would welcome the conquerors...and that seems to have just been quite stupid.

              Let's say plan B morphs into your plan over the next 4 years ... how many iraqis you reckon will be need to be killed? ... under a million?

        •  Isn't Malaysia a peninsula? (4.00 / 2)

          'nam bordered Cambodia.  the VC and NVA could and did just jump over the border.  Remember, it took the Brits 12 years to pacify a peninsula.
    •  Tax dollars (none / 0)

      Weren't there cases a few years ago of individuals not giving their money to the IRS in protest (I don't remember specifics) and giving that money to charities? Anyone remember this and what happened?
  •  Either of the two unpalatable options (none / 0)

    means wasted American and Iraqi lives.  The tragedy is unspeakable.  Yet, to others, even the American losses are merely collateral damage, all to the grand cause of........what?  I wish there was a suitable answer.
  •  Really, really depressing (4.00 / 2)

    Many Americans and Iraqis will die so that, in a few weeks, the situation in Fallujah will return to what it was before the attack.  Lovely.

    Our soldiers in Iraq can't be too happy about this, since they know better than anyone what the likely consequences of Operation Get Us Killed For No Tangible Gain will be.

    •  Yes but worse (none / 0)

      All these bombs and artillary attacks have destroyed an already ravaged city. They already had a hell hole to clean up. Now it has to be in absolute shambles. I can't imagine the destruction.

      The DoD spin will probably that we have leveled the already damaged buildings so they are in smaller pieces to clean up.

      God I wish there was a solution to this.

  •  Next big number is 1500 killed (4.00 / 3)

    That will warrant a few paragraph wire story in most local papers, plus a mention once every few hours on cable...After that, it will be the 2000 death...And so on...and so on....

    Right now, these deaths aren't all that newsworthy...The total needs to have more than one "0" at the end to have any chance of getting through the whore media filter....

    Wars not make one great. - Yoda

    by Volvo Liberal on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 09:58:25 AM PDT

  •  back at the ranch... (none / 1)

    insurgents have retaken ramadi.

    we've lost at least one helicopter in fallujah (grand total of at least 30 for the conflict), who knows how many other vehicles, 16 soldiers and counting.  all in two days.

    wtf is wrong with our idiots?

    "Government, like dress, is the badge of lost innocence; the palaces of kings are built upon the ruins of the bowers of paradise." Thomas Paine, Common Sense

    by Cedwyn on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 09:58:36 AM PDT

  •  Just Did A Diary Entry On This (3.66 / 3)

    Linking to a story that claims 16 soldiers/Marines have been killed.  My apologies for the duplication of effort, this main page entry was put up just as I was putting the finishing touches on my DE, and I didn't see this.

    "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

    "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

    by JJB on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 09:59:50 AM PDT

  •  I just can't really care anymore (none / 0)

    As someone mentioned in another thread, although I feel bad for all the dead and wounded on both sides, I just can't get worked up about this much anymore. The American people have spoken--this is what they want.
    •  Sadly (none / 0)

      that pretty much sums up how I feel.
    •  Yo, dude . . . (none / 0)

      First of all, there's no such thing as "the American people." I'm an American person and I didn't want this.

      Second, regardless of whether you think all Americans deserve to suffer for the sins of a bare majority of voters (assuming the vote count was not fraudulent), that sure as hell doesn't offer any consolations to the Iraqis who are doing the real suffering.  Our country will go through a long, slow, ghastly decline thanks to the delusions and incompentence of the neo-cons and the enabling corporate media, but the Iraqis are getting their asses blown off and dying of malnutrition and sewage in their drinking water right now.  I'm afraid I just can't not care any more.

    •  Except that (none / 0)

      the dying are our brothers.  In the fall of 2002 I flew from St Louis to Minneapolis seated next to a young marine who was heading out somewhere in the Pacific for training in urban warfare.  He was in his early 20s, and had joined up out of patriotism right after 911.  We talked about this and that, and my last words to him were that I hoped he wouldn't have to go to Iraq.  

      Those kids don't deserve this.  I will never stop being angry about this waste of patriotism.  Everything this administration does is waste. They are tearing down capital created over a 200 year history.  

    •  n/t (none / 0)

      Getting worked up is such a hassle isn't it? why should you bother yourself with little inconveniences such as a totally illegal war started by the country of your birth.

      Seriously - everyone should get worked up about this - it must be stopped.

       

  •  Hama... Grozny... Fallujah... (4.00 / 4)

    "But I cannot help doing this great wrong towards Man, that I make myself credulous. The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things, though that is great enough; but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them; for then it must sink back into savagery."

    William Kingdon Clifford, The Ethics of Belief.

  •  So they pacify Fallujah (none / 1)

    What then? The big guys have already left the town.  "Lighter than expected" resistance means this is probably the equivalent of a rear guard.

    Territory means very little in a guerilla war.  This really is Vietnam all over.  To win, we need to flip the populace.  There is some small chance the elections will help, but I'm putting that chance somewhere between slim and none.

    "When the President does it, it's not illegal" - Richard Nixon, 1974; US Congress, 2008

    by nightsweat on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 10:07:23 AM PDT

  •  Sunni Party Withdraws From Iraq Government (4.00 / 2)

    Sunni Party Withdraws From Iraq Government

    BAGHDAD, Iraq -  A major Sunni political party has quit the interim Iraqi government and revoked its single minister from the Cabinet in protest over the U.S. assault on the insurgent stronghold of Fallujah, the party's leader said Tuesday.  

    The Iraqi Islamic Party wields significant influence over the country's Sunni community and its withdrawal from the government will likely be a blow to Interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi.  

    "We are protesting the attack on Fallujah and the injustice that is inflicted on the innocent people of the city," said Mohsen Abdel-Hamid, head of the Iraqi Islamic Party.  

  •  The neocon game plan is to keep us (4.00 / 4)

    perpetually at war, as the people are unlikely to change governments during wartime.

    The more Americans die in Iraq, the better to them because it will make people angry enough to invade Iran.

    I know it makes no sense but there are plenty of morons out there who buy it.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" - Hunter S. Thompson (RIP)

    by redfish on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 10:11:02 AM PDT

  •  Americans LITERALLY showed more concern (4.00 / 5)

    over Janet Jackson's flash than Fallujah.I usually dislike facile, cliched observations like this, but it's true. How can I take American "morality" as anything other than a sick joke?

    The right is killing America

    by grushka on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 10:11:41 AM PDT

  •  I'll Be Back (4.00 / 5)

    Remember how the future was depicted in The Terminator? John Connor and his small band of guerillas hid in the shadows and were able to hold off the much stronger military force of the robots. Picture that in your mind, and now you know what it's like in Fallujah today.

    Picture American forces with incredible weapons, but who are unwilling or unable to truly engage the enemy. When Americans are attacked, they figure out where the attack was coming from and then level the building. By that time, of course, the insurgent forces (or should I say the resistance forces) have left. This NYTimes article gives some of the flavor of what a battle like this looks like.

    Frankly, the insurgents think that American soldiers are cowards. They believe that Americans hide behind our big weapons and airplanes and are so afraid of death that they will not be able to beat the insurgents on their own terrain.

    I have no idea if they are right or not. I would guess that if the Americans level enough buildings that they can "beat" the insurgency in Fallujah even if they never actually get close enough to the actual fighters to see them. Eventually American bombs can make Fallujah look just like that horrible Terminator landscape.

    Meanwhile, the leaders will have left Fallujah and established operations elsewhere. The 1000 dead insurgents will be replaced by 2000 enraged relatives and friends. The 5000 dead civilians will never be replaced. Nor will the 10 or 20 dead American soldiers who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    A week or two later, Iraqi National Guard soldiers will start patrolling Fallujah's semi-ruins and will be killed by the dozens or hundreds by car bombs, and Samarra or Ramadi will become the latest no-go zone for American soldiers. Maybe in February or March the Americans will go in and level those cities too.

    But the Iraqi John Connors will still own the shadows. Because even the US in its military heyday does not have enough bombs or time to obliterate all of the hidey holes.

    This is a waste of time and life.

  •  new board game? (none / 0)

    It's no surprise that the Fallujah attack was delayed until after the election. I would have done the same thing if I were running. I mean, if you're the incumbent, the last thing you want on the TV news is large casualty numbers. Bush (i.e., Rove) is a pro at keeping reality hidden until it is too late to do anything about it. This allows for one of my favorite parlor games: What Is Bush Hiding Up His Sleeve? Maybe Milton-Bradley will make a board game.
  •  Fallujah, an attempted overview (4.00 / 7)

        These are the US wars of my lifetime.
        1. Korea
           Stated purpose: to resist N. Korean invasion of s. Korea
           Outcome: after over 50,000 US deaths and hundreds of thousands of Korean and Chinese (at least) deaths, status quo re-established.
         2. Vietnam
            Stated purpose: Resist Communist aggression.
             Outcome: After a decade, almost 60,000 US and millions of Vietnamese lives, US abandoned a war it had no way of winning. Repercussions are still an unhealed scab on nation. Otherwise, Vietnam is the same as it would've been had war never started, a Communist/capitalist authoritarian hybrid. Held first professional golf tournament in its history last weekend.
          3. Iraq I
             Stated purpose: Kick Saddam Hussein's army out of Kuwait and restore its independence.
              Outcome: Just that, and much less bloodily than expected.
           4. Afghanistan
              Stated purpose: Overthrow Taliban and end its sanctuary for Al-Qaeda group responsible for 9/11. Vague sentiments about building better nation there.
             Outcome: Taliban overthrown. Not so many Al-Qaeda leaders captured as hoped. Afghanistan still the same hellhole it's been for millenia.
            5. Iraq 2
               Stated purpose: Many. Start with removing Saddam from power and locating and destroying his weapons of mass destruction. Add turning Iraq into some kind of Western democracy run on neocon principles. South Carolina on the Euphrates/
               Outcome: Saddam gone. WMDs never were. All the rest unholy mess with no end in sight.
             Can't we say 2 out of 3 ain't bad and just go home? Why did Bush AND Kerry say we had to stay and win. Win what? The purpose of my historical comparision was to show that the more specific one's goal in war, the more likely is success.
            Would Iraq minus us descend into civil war. Probably? Would it then become a hotbed of terrorist threats against the US?
             You mean, as opposed to now?
  •  It's the balloon problem. (none / 0)

    You squeeze the balloon in one area,
    and it just pops out in another...
  •  Kick Ass (4.00 / 3)

    Since the election is over, face it, there isn't much that can be done.  With full blow propaganda coming from the media, most Americans will say the USA is kicking ass.  This could go on for years.  

    The very sad thing is that all those deaths and injuries are pointless.  The US doesn't have the manpower to control the cities after re-conquering them.  The only Iraqi soldiers fighting on the US side are the Kurds.  Shortly Ayatollah Sistani and the Shiites will realize that they've been screwed again.  This time by the Americans.  After elections are postponed expect mass demonstrations.

    Even if the USA started the draft or had the money to pay for it, a million Christian troops can't control Iraq except by destroying the cities and sowing the fields with salt.   The trouble with genocide in Iraq is that it won't work unless you also target all of 1.3 billion Muslims in the Middle East, North Africa, South Asia and Indonesian Archipelago.

  •  The George Bush Political Capital Medal (4.00 / 3)

    If you believe this war should have been fought (I don't), then Fullujah should have been invaded weeks ago when the insurgents did not have a chance to reinforce.  Bush deliberately delayed the invasion to avoid headlines during the election.

    As such, more U.S. soldiers and Iraqi civilians will die so that Bush could win the election.

    Maybe we should create a new medal for the soldiers who died to give Bush his "political capital."  I am sure the widows, parents, and parentless children will be humbled.  

    "The George Bush Political Capital Medal"

  •  Just Like Vietnam (4.00 / 2)

    Afternoon or evening in Iraq and time for the General's press conference.

    We called it the 4 O'clock Follies in Vietnam.  At 1600 hours every day, they would trot out the lies and same-same shit about our casualties were "light" and the enemy casualties were "higher than expected."  

    They must be using the same script book.

    I always said that if I ever got it, I wanted it to be on a day when casualties were "light" because I was sure it would be a comfort to my family to know that I was only a "light" casualty.  (And that was in the days before "Miller Lite.")

    And, yes, we are about 15,000 to 20,000 casualties away from the vast majority of the American public giving a shit, especially those self-righteous pricks in the Red states.

    We may be deep into Iran before that happens.

    Tell you one thing though.  Those guys that thought they were stuck at the rank of Lt. Col. are alrady planning on getting at least one star, and all the Generals are racking up the retirement points and dollars.  

    War in not an equal-opportunity opportunity.

     

    •  Growing up on all the 60's nostalgia (4.00 / 4)

      it always seemed like the Vietnam era was this exhilirating time of great music, protest, freedom, sex, etc etc...

      And all the war movies later: Platoon, Apocalypse, Full Metal Jacket... they meant to be "anti-war" but they set Vietnam to a Stones soundtrack. It seemed all so glamorous in an American way.

      Of course, I knew that was ridiculous, but not until I saw the Vietnam era documentary "Hearts and Minds" did I truly realize that Vietnam was about one thing: killing millions of Vietnamese.

      And all the rest was nothing - NOTHING - compared to that fact.

      Now I'm living through the same thing, only the remnants of the real America are receding. This war will be fought in a moral, political, and artistic vacuum as corporatised America strives to strike the best balance between quietly supporting the war and not upsetting Nascar-viewing consumers.

      I realize this post is slightly scattershot, but I think I'm getting my points across.

      The right is killing America

      by grushka on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 10:38:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It was the end of our dream (none / 0)

        I still remember the day in summer of 1965 when President Johnson went on television to announce that were going to war, and I saw all the things that I hoped would happen to our country, all the work we did a few years earlier in the Civil Rights movement go down the drain.  The present situation is worse.
  •  Our schizo policy in Iraq (none / 0)

    The contradictions of US Iraq policy, distilled into points that the world will soon be hitting us with.

    "Hibernate between 45 and 65 if you can."--VS Pritchett

    by joseph on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 10:30:03 AM PDT

  •  The Danger of Body Counts (none / 0)

    We really need to be careful with stories like this. We don't want to get into the trap of using body counts as our main argument against Bush. We could come off looking like we are celebrating the deaths of American soldiers as vindication for our distrust in Bush.

    I talk about this more here.

    •  Bullshit (none / 1)

      The danger is not body counts, the danger is fucking battle.  

      The danger is a hard, steel or lead projectile slamming into your body at something over 2,000 feet per second and tearing your fucking body apart.  

      After your blood and guts are all over the place and your heart rate is zero beats per minute, the danger is over.  

      The only danger left is to others, and that the chicken hawks will keep sending young men into battle for no valid purpose -- and that no one will do anything to stop the insanity.

    •  Body counts (none / 0)

      I agree.  But I also think this criticism comes so readily from the conservatives because it's the sort of thing they engage in--called "projection" in psychology.

      Somtimes I have to turn off the radio when they start talking the number of US troops killed.

      Still, I'm sure it doesn't bother our fearless bumbler as he casually tosses more of America's finest into the Iraqi hellhole like kindling onto a fire.

  •  Cut and Run (none / 0)

    Fallujah is not part of a long term plan to pacify and democratize Iraq. It's part of a short-term solution that will lead to a peaceful enough window so that elections can be held and the we can bug out as soon as possible while saving some face. The adminstration will be able to say we left Iraq with democracy and the rest is up to them. Sadly, there's no way in hell the country will hold together short of Allawi (he's going to win the election, of that we should have no doubt) instituting martial law. Then what have got?

    The necon wet dream of a peaceful pro-American democracy as a thorn to totalitarian theocracy smack dab in the middle of the Middle East just isn't going to happen in our lifetimes, if ever. There will be no bases in Iraq. We won't control Iraqi oil. The region will be no safer. We will have just chnaged one dictator, anti-American, for another, pro-American.

    Meanwhile most of the entire world now regard us (even Poland, don't forget Poland) as a threat to the peace of the world. It's a sad state of existence that the American people have validited by sending Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Rice, et al back for four more years because of "moral values".

    What a bunch of crap.

  •  Iraq (none / 1)

    An independent reporter named Dahr Jamil, in Baghdad and with contacts in Fallujah, has mentioned that it is very easy to slip in and out of the city despite the U.S. blackade.

    It's pretty clear that our current military leadership didn't learn anyhing from Vietnam, or have had their head stuck in the sand about our defeat there. It's why we need reality-based history in our schools and media, not feel-good propaganda.

    I really feel that U.S. soldiers are being utilized poorly and killed uneccesarily. Retaking Fallujah wasn't important except in the macho world of Bush. Just skip elections there..a city of 300,000 is not going destroy the credibility of an election. Carpet bombing and razing that city will.

    •  I'm with you (none / 0)

      but one quibble - thankfully, nobody is talking about carpet bombing Fallujah. It's possible that one thing was learned from Vietnam - the people won't stand for carpet bombing of population centers.

      Our "precision" strikes are ridiculously inaccurate but they do less damage than a B-52 strike.

      That said we are fucking that place up good and proper and the result will hardly be rosy.

  •  OUT NOW!!! (none / 0)

    If you look closely at Bush and his thugs from now on you will see the blood dripping from each side of their mouths, the edges of thier eyes and from the palms of their hands.  The blood will also be dripping out of all our television sets each night.  It will dry overnight only to drip again.  A slow, sticky, steady drip.

    OUT NOW!

    •  GW, Leader of The "Free" World (none / 0)

      What do you get when oil-men control the biggest baddest military machine ever known to mankind?

      Monkey see, Monkey do,
      Monkey wins the election too.
      Dubya loves to ride waves of lies,
      Like that monkey loves to ride
      On bike-handlbars:  Curious George.

      Prey tell, how does the Bush-ano Cartel,
      Lead us straight into hell, inferno,
      No, this is not Disco, but is how this goes
      When untruth leaves lips at the
      Speed of Sound or was that the sound
      Of that F-16 ripping and charring flesh,
      Just to win the oil contest.

      Dubya, the International Thug,
      Straight-gangsta, showing the homies "love".
      Axis Of Evil sponsored by Lucifer's son.
      Other countries can't resist, neither can they run,
      When the grand mistruth weighs a ton,
      Backed-up by Depleted Uranium,
      Staining generations yet to come.

      Triple-9's inverted we call the beast,
      And we live in it's belly...

      -Gerry Malone aka Chill1G

  •  Urban combat doctrine (none / 1)

    Article on American urban combat doctrine

    Compliments of Globalsecurity.org

    Reader's digest version - Our doctrine is old school, in large part based on the experience in Vietnam.

    However, every dimension of combat is different between the Tet Offensive of 1968 and the recently-named Operation Phantom Fury/Al-Fajr that is currently in play.

    One of the objectives of the NVA was to hold the city of Hue for seven days, as a means of ensuring that images of the battle made it into the living rooms of the American people.

    As you may surmise, taking the media out of the picture, or controlling the story via embedding, has taken a high strategic priority.

  •  Picking up some of the points (4.00 / 2)

    I try and resist comparisons with Vietnam because to do so ignores the great differences in the two wars.

    Not to make a comparison becomes very difficult, however, because some of the similarities scream at you.

    Not least is the attitude of the generals. They claimed that the total unleashing of US power up to but not including nuclear warfare would have won the Vietnam war. The same attitude seems to be shared today between them and the White House. Shock and awe will win it. Some of the comments in the last two days by the military have been disturbing as examples of their mind set. One general talked in the braggart tones of george Bush of overwhelming force, of sweeping through the city and then turning and sweeping back through it until it was cleansed. He didn't seem to grasp that it couldn't be cleansed if there were as many insurgents outside the city as in it, nor how many would replace them in response to such a use of terrifying power.

    The Vietcong used to laugh at the news conferences when the US military spokesmen would announce that a particular battle had been won. Of course it had been. They all were won. That was not the point.

    A young marine spoke some of the most chilling words yesterday. A reporter searched for words when asked by the anchorman in the studio to describe the morale of the troops. Finally, "excited" was the one chosen. It then switched to the young kid soldier. He was, indeed, excited. "When they started playing the heavy metal music, it was ...like...well, just like, you know...a real video game". This is as sad as it gets.

    I disagree that the body bags had no effect on the decision to quit Vietnam. It caused the ban on photographs of coffins now.

    The endless, night after night, procession of these on TV wore down the public eventually, despite the amazing tolerance of the number of deaths. In part, this acceptance was due to a rationale for the Vietnam war that was similar to that used today. It was the front line against the communists. The battle there stopped it being a battle on American soil.

    I will accept one important difference. Instead of a terrorist attack, the nation was continually reminded by four minute warnings of the threat of nuclear attack. It made people accept a much higher death rate than the current orange alert will permit.

    Another similarity is the type of aggressive, falsely patriotic attacks on those who sought an exit from Vietnam that I hear today. Like now, the apparently undeniable logic was that to show what might, however vaguely,be construed as a weakness would embolden the enemy and result in an attack directly on the American people.

    So much of what we see and hear is as if time has stood still. Certainly no lessons have been learnt.

    When I was at university, my moral tutor (we had such strangely named creatures) was the leading writer on social administration in the UK. I admired her enormously and regarded her work and contribution to the enormous developments in the country over thirty years with awe. Because she had been such a progressive person, I was astonished to learn from her around the time I gained my first degree that she could see no evidence that there had been any change in how people behaved to one another. She expressed a disheartened sadness at the realisation, after a lifetime of dedication, that they had not progressed as a people despite the improvements in the societal structures that surrounded them.

    I have that feeling as I look at what is happening now.

  •  Officer Cass Reports: (4.00 / 2)

    "Our scout ships have reached Dantooine Fallujah. They found the remains of a Rebel base, but they estimate that it has been deserted for some time. They are now conducting an extensive search of the surrounding systems."
  •  Falluja and Iraq (none / 0)

    It saddens me that our soldiers have been dying now for eighteen months and the blood-lust remains so high among those who are safe here at home. This will remain the case until the reality of the dreadful losses are highlighted in the media.  The daily death toll barely makes the front pages any more, often one has to read to the end of a story to find the numbers of injured and killed! This from a supposedly "Christian" nation with high "moral values."  As for the dead Iraqis, "we don't do body counts."  This is not the America I dreamed of as a child and immigrated to as soon as I was of age.  It is up to all sane Americans to reclaim the American Dream from the lunatics who have kidnapped it.  That is why I have been an avid reader of Daily Kos since I discovered it in August of this year.  Don't lose hope.  We must prevail for the sake of our children and for the sake of the dead in both countries.
  •  more cynical (none / 0)

    Reading history, this is always the way America has been. A good place to be and deal with as long as your weren't one of the infidels...

    The infidels change over time, but they're usually  of a different skin color, language, or religion. The country was founded on land theft and slavery, so no, things really haven't changed.

    •  Iraq (none / 0)

      I realize that in a time of war every country attempts to demonize its enemies,it is usually the only way to turn ordinary individuals into killing machines.  However, right now America seems to particularly vicious in its rethoric directed not only at its enemies, but at anyone who disagrees with it, even its own citizens.  
  •  refused commission (4.00 / 2)

    I applied for an Air Force commission after 11 September 2001. I was selected in October this year to attend Officer Training School. Two days after November 2nd I decided this wasn't a nation worth defending. I walked into the office and told the Lt. Colonel waiting to swear me in I would not serve.

    Refusing Health Care for the reserve/guard
    Stoploss and IRR call ups without a national emergency
    Tax cuts while soldiers have their combat pay cut
    An unethical, unnecessary, illegal, unending war against a populace that never lifted a finger to harm America.
    I could go on and on. But the people elected a pile of draft dodgers who foment war.
    Sad, but we don't even have the appearence of propriety in this imperial war . . .
    I believe in the ideals of this nation too much to be complcit in this sham

  •  From AP: 10 Soldiers Killed (none / 1)

    I can't keep track anymore...

    U.S. Pushes Into Fallujah; 10 GIs Killed
    (AP) - U.S. troops powered their way into the center of the insurgent stronghold of Fallujah on Tuesday, overwhelming small bands of guerrillas with massive force, searching homes along the city's deserted, narrow passageways and using loudspeakers to try to goad militants onto the streets. The U.S. military said ten U.S. service members and two Iraqi government troopers have been killed in the operation. A brief statement said that as of 6:30 p.m. Tuesday local time, the 10 Americans and two Iraqis had been killed "in Operation Al Fajr."

    Wars not make one great. - Yoda

    by Volvo Liberal on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 03:32:25 PM PDT

  •  MSNBC Report (none / 0)

    If you click on Kos's link to this story, you will see it has been cleaned up a lot.

    NONE OF THIS:

    <At least two American tanks were engulfed in flames, witnesses said.>

    AND NONE OF THIS:

    <But a wounded U.S. soldier told a Reuters reporter Tuesday that he had seen 50 wounded comrades. "A buddy of mine and another soldier were killed and I have seen about 50 other wounded (U.S.) soldiers since the fighting began," he said while awaiting medical evacuation from the city. He declined to give his name.<p> A U.S. military ambulance driver also said he had witnessed many casualties.>

  •  Perhaps stretching the Vietnam parallel, (none / 0)

    but will do it anyway. Starting with the Domino Theory, but reversed.
     Vietnam: Shore up the south against Communist takeover, which if it occurs will spread like a virus to infect the rest of Southeast Asia.
     Iraq: Oust the dictator and establish democracy and watch it spread like good white cells through the Middle East body.
     Vietnam: Train South Vietnamese soldiers to repel on their own the north's incursion; watch them fail when we leave.
     Iraq: Train the Iraqi soldiers to repel the Islamic estremists (et al), and watch them, when we leave... well, fill in the rest.
     We have no answers. We have no silver bullet.
    We will, eventually, withdraw. Let's hope it does not take a national disembowlment. But history does have a habit of, if not repeating itself, creating a haunting echo.  
  •  Why is this happening? (none / 0)

    I came across this interesting article from the Guardian on earthside.com and thought others might like to read it. It offers some interesting facts about Falluja and draws some  pertinent conclusions. Does anyone agree these actions on the part of Bush and Blair and their cohorts constitute war crimes? Is the possibility of prosecuting these perpetrators of an unprovoked war of aggression being explored by anyone?
    _________________

    Falluja's Defiance of a New Empire
    Sami Ramadani
    The Guardian
    November 10, 2004

    George Bush and Tony Blair have apparently concluded that they can crush the Iraqi people's will to resist occupation and legitimise a puppet regime next January by occupying Falluja. Maybe they imagine they can emulate the British forces that terrorised Iraqi Kurdistan in the 1920s by obliterating recalcitrant villages.

    The US generals will no doubt deliver Falluja to Bush and Blair after bombarding its neighbourhoods with artillery and rockets. But they are doomed to deliver neither the Fallujans nor the people of Iraq. Perhaps they are unaware that Fallujans defied Saddam's rule during his last years in power. Falluja - known as the city of a thousand mosques - attracted Saddam's wrath in 1998 when its imams refused to hail the tyrant in their Friday sermons. Many were imprisoned, and the city punished as a result.

    But the generals certainly do know how resistance began in Falluja. On April 28 2003 US soldiers opened fire on parents and children demonstrating against the continued military occupation of their primary school - killing 18 of them in cold blood and injuring about 60 others. Until the killing of those demonstrators, not a single bullet had been fired at US soldiers in Falluja or any of the cities north of Baghdad. But, remorselessly, little-known Falluja became a world-renowned centre of defiance, where a poor and poorly armed people has courageously faced the military wing of the new empire.

    The way Falluja's 300,000 people reacted to the April 28 massacre has made them a prime target for savage bombardment and conquest. Najaf was bombed into a ceasefire in August. Samarra was conquered in September. Sadr City in Baghdad was bombarded and negotiated into temporary silence in October. Now they want to crush the symbol of Falluja, to teach the rest of Iraq a bloody lesson. Another pyrrhic victory is likely to be added to an already long list.

    Blair once again misled parliament this week by branding the resistance in Falluja as Zarqawi-style terrorists out to destroy the prospects for democracy. It was he and Bush who last year rejected the calls for early free and fair elections from those who rejected the occupation, including Ayatollah Sistani, Moqtada al-Sadr, the resistance and the widely supported Iraqi National Foundation Congress. Bush and Blair are terrified of the Iraqi people voting for anti-occupation leaders. They will accept nothing short of the legitimisation, through sham elections supervised by the occupation authorities, of an Allawi-style puppet regime.

    More than 100,000 Iraqis are estimated to have been been killed since the US-led invasion; the country's infrastructure has all but been destroyed; people are exposed to the danger of US and British depleted-uranium shells; hospitals have been reduced to impotence in the face of mounting injuries and disease; the centre of Najaf and entire neighbourhoods of several cities have been razed. How much more should the Iraqi people be subjected to for Bush and Blair to have their "democratically" chosen puppets installed in Baghdad?

    These are war crimes of Saddamist proportions, and there is evidently more to come. Bush's latest pronouncements and Blair's declaration of a "second war" have made clear that the occupation governments are ready to kill (as "collateral damage", no doubt) even more Iraqis to enforce a pro-US order. Without a shred of evidence, Bush, Blair and Ayad Allawi's quisling regime shamelessly declare that they are only pursuing the Jordanian kidnapper Zarqawi and other "foreign terrorists". The people of Falluja, their leaders, negotiators and resistance fighters have always denounced Zarqawi and argued that such gangs have been encouraged to undermine the resistance.

    The occupation forces have now reverted to their initial ploy of attacking cities north of Baghdad, while reaching ceasefires with some Baghdad districts and southern cities. Presumably, they see this as an effective divide-and-rule tactic, but it is likely to prove as futile as the rest of their plans for post-invasion Iraq. It is, in reality, merely a battle postponed. Iraq's history, reaffirmed by events since the US-led occupation, shows that its people's unity is stronger than differences based on religion, sect, ethnicity or national identity. That was demonstrated on Sunday when a senior Kurdish officer with the token US-commanded Iraqi force besieging Falluja deserted within half an hour of being shown the plans to occupy the city.

    The US and British governments could do worse than digest the old Chinese proverb: "They lift a stone to drop it on their own feet." For they might have occupied Iraq and succeeded in lifting some of its heavy stones, but the stones will inevitably come crashing down on their feet

    'Laws are dumb in time of war' - Cicero, Pro Milone

    by SeeingStars on Tue Nov 09, 2004 at 11:13:13 PM PDT

  •  War Crimes Proposal (none / 0)

    The Green Party of Ohio is making a proposal to have Bush et al prosecuted. Does anyone know of any other related inititives being taken elsewhere?

    http://www.ohiogreens.org/war_crimes_