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Last time I had looked, several months ago, Internet Explorer still made up the vast majority of the browsers used by Daily Kos readers (80-90 percent). That's changing rapidly.

Today, IE makes up 67 percent of dKos reader browsers. A solid number, but one trending down and doing so rapidly. Anytime I see Microsoft failing at something it makes my day. So three cheers to Firefox and Safari!

Oh, and speaking of Microsoft, 22 percent of Daily Kos readers use a non-Windows operating system (18 percent Macintosh, 4 percent Linux/Unix).

The numbers look different at conservative sites. At Instapundit, for example, 75 percent of visitors use IE. And only 6 percent of visitors use a non-Windows operating system (Mac at 4 percent, Linux/Unix at 2 percent).

There is a clear liberal/conservative divide in technology usage. You can find the data at any weblog with a public sitemeter, and the stats seem to hold true across the board. Liberals are more likely to use non-Microsoft products and conservatives.

Draw your own conclusions.

(Incidentally, those stats will change throughout the day, so the numbers you see after clicking the links may not be the numbers I recorded when I posted this piece.)

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 08:29 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  not surprised (none)
     - we on the left are more willing to try new things , and let's admit it, we're smarter.
    •  Let's try a more mildly worded post (1.69)
      I think this is totally irrelevant and easily explainable without assuming liberals are inherently superior.  I also think that attaching significance to the insignificant in this way demonstrates personal insecurity.  At LGF, they tolerate much more offensive posts.  When people communicate, that is a good thing.  I hope you agree.
      •  at LGF (none)
        they also celebrate when people get run over by tanks and die horrific deaths. If that's communication, count me out.
        •  I don't understand what you are saying (2.00)
          •  He's Referecing Rachel Corrie (4.00)
            Rachael Corrie was a 23 year-old American protester who was crushed by a bulldozer as she was trying to prevent Palestinian homes from being destroyed.

            The response of LGF to this tragic event was to label her a "terror advocate" and dub her "Idiotarian of the Year.

            It was a truly disgusting spectacle, even by LGF's standards, and seems to prove that we are smarter if only because w don't rejoice when one of our fellow citizens dies.

            Never wait for miracles.

            by Wanderer on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 10:19:04 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't advocate celebrating her death (1.57)
              I don't advocate celebrating her death although I certainly didn't shed any tears over it.  I would say that writing "screw them" about the Americans that were burnt alive, mutilated and hung from a bridge, is worse.  
              •  Realizing a mistake (none)
                Why is it worse? Come right out and say what you're thinking, no one will delete and ban you here. Is American life more valuable to you than Palestinian? That line of thought is why people call LGF posters fascists.

                www.news-junky.blogspot.com

                by Antioch on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 11:41:50 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  No. All human life has infinite inherent value. (none)
                  Israel has claimed all along, and the US government concurs, that her death was accidental.  You may feel that this is not true, but I don't think that you can reasonably demand that others accept your opinion and label them fascists because they don't.  Reasonable people can disagree about the morallity of what Corey was doing at the time.  Reasonable people can also disagree about the morality of US troops being in Iraq.  So, since all of those factors are arguable, the only firm basis of comparison is the killings themselves, not the extenuating circumstances.  In Iraq, US citizens were horribly and intentionally murdered and degraded.
      •  Hmm ... (none)
        At LGF, they tolerate much more offensive posts.

        I'm stunned at your assertion. I've seen dozens of posts at LGF that extremely politely dissent from a conservative viewpoint be deleted. Do you have some links to "much more offensive posts" at LGF that have survived? Remember, the post has to be offensive and pro-liberal to be analogous to your comment.

        •  Ooops (none)
          senior moment ... I was thinking of Free Republic. Haven't bothered with LGF, but my challenge still stands.
        •  I will look around for one, time allowing (2.50)
          Do you mean dozens of your own posts deleted?  If you've seen others post things, read them, and then saw them disappear, you must be spending a tremendous amount of time there.  I spend a lot of time there and maybe once or twice have I seen a post disappear.  I wasn't looking for it however.  If you want, please type and email that you think would be deleted, let me see it, and then post it a LGF and we'll see what happens.  In the mean time I will look around for an "offensive" post at LGF.
          •  quite a few people here (none)
            Have tried to post rebuttals or comments in both these forums - they don't last long. They tolerate offensive posts but not liberal posts. Occasionally I have seen Bush criticism on these sites but it's always from a long-time conservative poster who has a specific complaint, not a general critique. dKos is by most accounts a much more tolerant group although I do see you got some bad rating on you initial post which I wouldn't have done (I disagree with it but I don't think you're being insincere or trolling) so perhaps I'm wrong.
            •  We have Republicans who post here... (none)
              ...and while they may get troll rated on occasion by the general readership here, Kos won't ban them unless they are being disruptive.  If they are well mannered, yet argue the other view, they are welcome.

              Try doing that over there and see how quickly you get banned.

          •  See my comment above (none)
            I was having a senior moment (see, not young and unemployed, but still liberal after all these years) and confusing LGF with Free Republic. Sorry about that.
          •  Can't find one at the moment (none)
            Blue the wild dog,
            I cannot find on at the moment and I don't have more time to look.  I have experienced offensive posts about abortion, religious issues.  The truth is that I think that both liberals and conservatives can do a much better job of communicating.  I started this thread with a bit of a flame toss that got deleted.  I wish someone would host a site specifiaclly for the left and right to speak in a respectful, constructive way.
      •  Here's something I really hate (none)
        People are troll-rating all of michoel's posts, even though only one, in my mind, actually falls to that level.

        Here's a good rule of thumb:  Rate posts, not users!

        </soapbox>

      •  asdf (none)
        yeah they more tolerate more offenseive posts, its the non-offensive posts they censor

        don't whine -- start working on 06

        by chuckrudolph on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 02:50:50 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Where to get Firefox (4.00)
      Speaking of trying new things, those who are still using IE should definity go there:

      GetFirefox.com

      It's free, it's very good, it's fast, it's open source and no commercial corporation has control over it. Plus, it pisses off microsoft, one of the biggest republican donors.

      Try it.

      •  Opera... (none)
        is also good... :)

        http://www.opera.com/

        No, I don't work for them!  ;)

      •  Yes and (none)
        I think MS is getting worried.  I noticed that the latest version of IE is blocking pop-ups.  I don't use it enough to know if it works well.  My wife actually has to use IE since her work requires her to use a site with IE specific javascript.

        Michael

      •  AdBlock (none)
        And while you are over throwing your evil MS overlords, you will also want to through out your evil consumerism overlords with ADBLOCK!

        This is a key component of what makes Firefox SOOOoooooo Awesome.

        You can block just about any ad on the web you want. All you have to do is right click on any ad including Flash based ads and then choose to block it.  Done.  You'll love the NYTimes more without Ads.

        Once you have installed Firefox go here and just click install:
        http://update.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?application=firefox&id=10&vid=664

        Totally painless, nothing to download, and no need to restart the browser.

      •  also worth trying (none)
        i've stopped using MS Outlook at home and have switched to Mozilla's ThunderBird (email) and Sunbird (calendar). They are stable, effective programs and are a great alternative to Microsoft's monopoly. Go to www.mozilla.org to check them out.

        stop using IE and 90% of your spyware problems will go away. go Firefox!

        "the free market knows everything about prices and nothing about values" - octavio paz

        by skyguy on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 11:30:48 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Microsoft donations are 61% Democratic (none)
        I can understand individual dislike of Microsoft, but that company contributed more to the Democratic party in this election season. As for the reasons for higher representation of non-Microsoft platforms/browsers on this site, I would guess more liberal Academia would be responsible. And yea, it is spelled "correlation".
        •  CHallenge and good spots.... (none)
          Folks,

          Here are some good news to chew on along with some challeneges we face as democrats.

          Carlos

        •  Apple supported Kerry (none)
          Apple's CEO, Steve Jobs, was an economic advisor to the Kerry campaign.
          •  Yet another cool reason to support Apple (none)
            I like Jobs' interview question for new hires: So, how many acid trips have you taken?  More than 12, you're in, baby.

            "Whatever it is, I'm against it." -- Groucho

            by moltar on Sun Dec 05, 2004 at 03:31:16 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  OS (none)
          At my last job, we created routing software for every existing Internet protocol, and a few that the president was helping create.  The boxes for testing took up a good-sized room.  We had 64 different operating systems - about 59 more than I had ever heard of.  A survey of the client base showed overwhelming IE usage (89%), but many browsers will spoof IR to get access to certain pages. UNIX and Linux were next in line.

          I loved my Mac in 1984, but it was slowly pushed away by IBM clones and Windows 2.0 (yes).  Most graphics people in Ann Arbor have never used anything but Mac, and don't care.  It's what a computer should be. sigh

          "Whatever it is, I'm against it." -- Groucho

          by moltar on Sun Dec 05, 2004 at 03:29:57 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Switched to Firefox (none)
        a couple of weeks ago and how I love it! It was really easy to load---it did all the work of converting bookmarks, cookies, etc. over for me. Get the horrible IE monkey off your back now, people!

        I want to dump Windows after the holidays for Linux. If anybody has any input on how this transition goes, pipe in.

        More on topic: I bet a lot of Republicans are on AOL.

        •  Burner (none)
          If you've got a CD burner you can try free live linux CDs for download from knoppix or mepis or a whole host of others.  

          A "live CD" allowa you to test out Linux on your system without installing it to see if your video card, network card, sound card etc. work, plus you get to try a nice selection of apps.  If you like it (be aware that it will be slow running off CD),  then you can go ahead and wipe out windows and put it on your hardisk or dual boot or whatever.

        •  I bought (none)
          Red Hat Linux Fedora For Dummies for about $30. It tells you how to set up your machine for dual-boot and has Fedora Core on a DVD.
          Linux has a pretty step learning curve, but it gets more GUI with each version. Mozilla has links to help get your plugins going. There are a few linux help sites and rpmfind is a goldmine.

          No more faith-based electronic voting machines: www.blackboxvoting.org

          by doug r on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 11:18:16 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  yes, it can be done. (none)
          Don't do it unless:

          • you are a very experienced user who is thoroughly familar with the DOS command line
          • you can get in-person Linux support. Friend, family member, local Linux User Group support. If you need to find a user group, make sure there is a local one before you do this.

          From a consumer viewpoint, Linux is "bleeding edge" at this time.

          This is my article called Teach Linux To Do Windows, Part 1 which shows how I converted my Windows box to run Linux using Win4Lin to provide a Windows emulation environment to handle legacy apps.

          The state of graphics software sucks on Linux, one reason I run Windows is because no equivalent to Corel Draw or PaintShopPro that works exists for Linux yet. (for the Linux users out there - yes, I've seen GIMP2, and it doesn't do vector draw anyway)

          If you go the Windows emulation route on your new Linux box, make absolutely certain that the applications you meed in Windows actually run in the emulation environment you choose. The better known WINE environment only works with a handful of applications.

          Automated program installation via yum / apt-get / urpmi / ... (i.e. whatever comes with the Linux distribution you install) is your friend, learn how to use it and try hard to see if it can be used with whatever new programs you decide to install before looking for binary program packages for your distribution.

          One other thing. If you need much more than the usual Office + Internet software, there is a very good chance that you will have to pay for it because either no pure Open-Source freeware (GPL) software exists or because what is available is clearly inadequate for your purposes. I'm running Win4Lin ($90) and Textmaker ($50... superior to OpenOffice Writer for serious writers) not because I like to spend money, but because I'm not happy with the pure Open Source apps available. YMMV.

          From reports, Firefox is a fine choice for a Windows user, but you should consider Opera as well. It handles tabbed browsing better than anything else, it permits variable zoom levels for those pages where the print is unreadably small, and it makes those pages with text in light yellow on an orange background readable with the touch of a screen button. Plus, it has Mac and Linux versions, I'm posting in the Linux version right now.

          Despite the occasional installation problems I've had, (in general, installing things and making them work on Linux isn't that hard, it's finding the right how-to that's the problem), I'm very happy with my setup. (RedHat Fedora Core 2 + Win4Lin/W98SE) It does what I need to do and in general, my computer goes down when I tell it to, not at random intervals during the day.

      •  But why, oh why? (none)
        Can't Firefox tabs (1.0 baby!) and long daily kos threads play nicely together? Come on people, now, smile on my browser, all you comments get together and try to render on the page right (now) Peanut butter and chocolate taste good together. (or is this just me see those stupid empty pages or wyciwg tab images?)
      •  Microsoft supports DEM and GOP equally (none)
        Microsoft has a history  of supporting the GOP, however in the recent election their money was split 47/53.
      •  You guys are awesome! (none)
        Downloaded Firefox, downloaded Ad Block.  Anytime I can free my life from the reach of Bill Gates I am happy.  But I have been afraid of trying anything until now--not exactly a computer whiz.  I have learned so much from this site, even a little bit about politics!
      •  No (none)
        it pisses off microsoft, one of the biggest republican donors.

        Microsoft gave way more to Dems than Reps in the 2004 cycle, and their contributions to the GOP could never be described as "one of the biggest."  You are just making shit up.

        It is interesting that Dean supporters hate Microsoft.  Do you guys expect all software to be free?  Do you have trouble understanding intellectual property rights?

        I have noticed that the correlation between open-source geeks and Dean dweebs approaches 1.  There is a reason for that:  You guys all fell for Trippi's fraud that you had some impact on the course of Dean's campaign, the same way a programmer might influence an open-source application.  You felt so Empowered!  I remember those heady days at DFA (and here at dKos).

        But if you take credit for Dean's meager successes, you must also take responsiblity for his failures, and Dean's campaign was a crashing failure.  Yes, you share the blame.

        My purpose here is not to insult Deaniacs, but to explode the Dean Myths that have been built up around the wreckage of his campaign.  Much of the trash that passes for fact here is just bullshit, like the notion that Microsoft is among the biggest GOP contributors, and that Howard Dean's campaign was anything but a catastrophe for the Dems.  Look beyond the blogs:  For many middle Americans (rightly or wrongly), Democrats = Howard Dean = Anti-war = Scream = Raving Idiot.  Dean dragged the Dems down, and we lost.    

        •  free software (none)
          Do you guys expect all software to be free?

          Yes!

          Do you have trouble understanding intellectual property rights?

          Do you have trouble understanding GPL?

          I expect to pay for hardware, I expect to pay for technical support.

          Software is free and will stay that way.

          The Open Source movement is going to kill Microsoft, does the Acronym LAMP ring a bell?
          or does Open Office ring a bell?? Jboss?? MySQL? PostgreSQL? Perl? PHP? APACHE? Scoop? PHP Nuke? Linux? Mozilla?

          Go figure out how much it would cost to set up a dinamic web site using MS software, and tell me why any self respecting business would use their software.

          "Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill

          by Don Quijote on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 07:36:36 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  pissing off Micro$oft is a great hobby... (none)
        Do you have a link or article about Microsoft's political donation numbers? I've seen stuff about the Bill GAtes philanthropical fund basically as a covert shill for getting more people worldwide trained on microsoft and therefore less willing to switch, but nothing on actual political donations.
    •  Shakes head... (none)
      How about conservatives are more likely to have real jobs that require real software...  :)  There are a lot of $1000 to $5000 firm-level tax prep systems...  

      But not for Macs...  And when was the last time Quickbooks for Mac was updated?  1999...

      And does Autodesk make an Autocad for Mac?  Anymore?  Updated, not Autocad 11 or whatever they stopped supporting in the 1990s...

      •  more likely... (none)
        I think its more likely that tech oriented people tend to be more libertarian to begin with (and libertarians are definitely not republican these days).  Tech oriented people are more likely to use alternative/better browsers than IE.

        I still can't understand why anyone would still be using IE right now. The alternatives are easy to get, easy to migrate to, don't have the gaping security holes, and have better and more useful features. Are people really that scared to try something new? Is this the same sociology that makes old people like to ride trains instead of fly in airplanes?

        •  yeah, like eric raymond. (2.66)
          but, mr. gnu - richard stallman is almost a communist.

          Meme for the season: "Power before principle Republicans" Ex: "Today, we saw yet again the Republicans place power before principle as they attemped to..."

          by lostinbrasil on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 10:10:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Unfortunately (none)
          there are still sites which only operate with IE. Also, if you are putting up a website you need to see what it looks like in IE since so many sheep people are still using it as their default browser.
          •  I've discovered (none)
            that sites and online games that say they won't work with Mac, work fine as long as you're using Safari.  They won't work with IE for Mac.  I was annoyed with my husband when he bought me a Mac.  I had always used Windoze and didn't want to learn a new system.  Now I LOVE my Mac and would never go back to a PC.

            It does stink that there isn't as much software available, though.

            •  yes (none)
              They won't work with IE for Mac

              I hesitated to switch over to Safari because I thought there would be more sites that I couldn't access with a Mac. Instead, the opposite has been true.

              There are still sites that won't work with anything but IE, but fortunately not too many.

              Glad you're enjoying your Mac.

              •  Microsoft Stopped Developing IE for Mac (none)
                IE doesn't work with a lot of pages because it is an old version.  Try Firefox, there are some pages that don't look right in Safari that are fine in Firefox.    

                According to sitemeter 12% of Kos users use Safari, and 12% are on a Mac.  Its too bad more Mac users aren't trying other browsers, like Camino and Firefox.  Try Firefox for a week and you won't go back.  Get Safari Bookmark Exporter from versiontracker.com to convert your bookmarks from Safari to the format used by Firefox.

            •  Safari... (none)
              A related issue is sites that throw up a message to the effect that "your browser isn't supported" if they don't recognize the USER_AGENT header as either IE or a Netscape variant. Fewer of these in recent years, thankfully.

              The overall usage stats are very likely skewed by people claiming to be IE, which is trivially easy in many browsers. So the IE share is almost certainly less across the board.

              For Safari, quit the application and in Terminal.app enter:

              defaults write com.apple.Safari IncludeDebugMenu 1
              Relaunch Safari and you now have a new menu, which allows you to set your USER_AGENT to one of several common values (along with a lot of other things of various utility). If you get tired of the menu, repeat the above procedure with a "0" rather than a "1" at the end.
          •  well there you have it (none)
            why we lost the election.
            We keep calling them sheep, they keep running away from us.
                          - a liberal/socialist IE user
      •  Real software? (none)
        FYI, I run Linux for work. I wrote a book (networking textbook), using Microsoft Office, on Linux.

        When I want to play games, I run Windows. Perhaps Republicans use their computers primarily to play games?

        •  Hey, liberals like games too (none)
          If I used my home computer for purely work-related things, I would be tempted to switch to Linux.  But I'm a gamer, so that is completely out of the question.

          As for Firefox, it's ok, but I had some issues with it when I used a pre-release version.  Also, IE + Win XP SP 2 + Google Toolbar provides a safe, spyware free, popup free, surfing enviroment.  Win 98 + IE 5.0 is a very different story, of course.

          Only major plus of Firefox over the Win XP SP 2 + IE + Google Toolbar combination I can see is tabbed browsing, which is no big deal to me (I have dual monitors, used to be triple monitors, so a bunch of IE windows at the bottom is fine.)  And, of course, some sites don't work with Firefox still, unfortuantly.

          If somebody can tell me what the big advantage of Firefox over a Win XP SP 2 + IE + Google Toolbar, by all means, tell me.

          •  if you have a boss (none)
            tabbed browsing is pretty sweet.  it's nice regardless, really.
          •  This is what they've found (none)
            So far:

            Found: 69 Related Secunia Security Advisories

            • Microsoft Internet Explorer "Save Picture As" Image Download Spoofing
            • Microsoft Internet Explorer Cookie Path Attribute Vulnerability
            • Microsoft Internet Explorer Two Vulnerabilities
            • Internet Explorer Flash/Excel Content Status Bar Spoofing Weakness
            • Microsoft Internet Explorer "res:" URI Handler File Identification Vulnerability
            • Internet Explorer/Outlook Express Restricted Zone Status Bar Spoofing
            • Internet Explorer HTML Elements Buffer Overflow Vulnerability
            • Microsoft Internet Explorer Two Vulnerabilities
            • Internet Explorer Multiple Vulnerabilities
            • Microsoft Internet Explorer Disclosure of Sensitive XML Information
            • Internet Explorer Cross-Domain Cookie Injection Vulnerability
            • Microsoft Multiple Products JPEG Processing Buffer Overflow Vulnerability
            • Microsoft Internet Explorer Drag and Drop Vulnerability
            • Internet Explorer Address Bar Spoofing Vulnerability
            • Microsoft Internet Explorer Multiple Vulnerabilities
            • Internet Explorer Frame Injection Vulnerability
            • Internet Explorer File Download Error Message Denial of Service Weakness
            • Internet Explorer Security Zone Bypass and Address Bar Spoofing Vulnerability
            • Internet Explorer Local Resource Access and Cross-Zone Scripting Vulnerabilities
            • Microsoft Internet Explorer and Outlook URL Obfuscation Issue
            • Windows Explorer / Internet Explorer Long Share Name Buffer Overflow
            • Internet Explorer/Outlook Express Restricted Zone Status Bar Spoofing
            • Microsoft Outlook Express MHTML URL Processing Vulnerability
            • Internet Explorer Cross Frame Scripting Restriction Bypass
            • Internet Explorer File Identification Variant
            • Internet Explorer Travel Log Arbitrary Script Execution Vulnerability
            • Internet Explorer File Download Extension Spoofing
            • Internet Explorer showHelp() Restriction Bypass Vulnerability
            • Internet Explorer URL Spoofing Vulnerability
            • Internet Explorer System Compromise Vulnerabilities
            • Microsoft Internet Explorer Multiple Vulnerabilities
            • Microsoft Internet Explorer Local Zone Access
            • Microsoft Internet Explorer Exposure of Installed Components
            • Windows Server 2003 "Shell Folders" Directory Traversal
            • Microsoft Internet Explorer Update fixes the Object Data Vulnerability
            • Microsoft Internet Explorer Multiple Vulnerabilities
            • Multiple Browser Cookie Path Directory Traversal Vulnerability
            • Microsoft Access Snapshot Viewer Buffer Overflow
            • Microsoft Internet Explorer Multiple Vulnerabilities
            • Microsoft MCIWNDX.OCX ActiveX Plugin Buffer Overflow
            • Internet Explorer AutoScan Method Cross-Site Scripting Vulnerability
            • Internet Explorer Custom HTTP Error Script Injection Vulnerability
            • Internet Explorer XML File Cross-Site Scripting Vulnerability
            • Internet Explorer Exposes Sensitive Information
            • Internet Explorer "Classic" Folder View Cross Site Scripting
            • Internet Explorer Object Tag Buffer Overflow Vulnerability
            • Internet Explorer Automatic File Download and Execution Vulnerability
            • Internet Explorer Four Vulnerabilities
            • Microsoft Shell Light-Weight Utility Library Denial of Service
            • Internet Explorer .MHT Denial of Service
            • Macromedia Flash Player Potential Vulnerabilities
            • Microsoft Internet Explorer execution of arbitrary code
            • Internet Explorer Cross-Site Scripting Vulnerability
            • Internet Explorer Cross Site Scripting Vulnerability
            • MacroMedia FlashPlayer buffer overrun affects browsers too
            • Microsoft update to stop remote execution
            • Internet Explorer / Netscape / Java multiple vulnerabilities
            • Microsoft vulnerabilities not fixed
            • Microsoft Internet Explorer multiple vulnerabilities
            • Microsoft vulnerabilities in Internet Explorer, Outlook, Outlook Express and Internet Information Server (IIS)
            • Internet Explorer Local File Execution and Cookie and Clip Board Theft
            • Internet Explorer Cross Frame Scripting
            • Microsoft Internet Explorer Security Zone
            • Internet Explorer Cross Site Scripting hole
            • Internet Explorer Cross Frame Scripting
            • Microsoft Java Implementation Multiple Vulnerabilities
            • Cross Site Scripting in multiple browsers
            • Flaw in Certificate Enrollment Control Could Allow Deletion of Digital Certificates
            • Cumulative Patch for Internet Explorer

No more faith-based electronic voting machines: www.blackboxvoting.org

by doug r on Sat Dec 04, 2004 at 11:40:00 AM PST

[ Parent ]

  •  GNU Cash (none)
    You can always use GNUcash for OS X.
  •  QuickBooks has been updated for Mac OS (none)
    QuickBooks has been updated for Mac (this year, I should add), though admittedly it's not in full parity with the Windows version.

    However, the Mac version of MS Office is much, much nicer than the latest Windows version.  And you can always run OpenOffice on Mac OS - easy to do, works really well.

    "Democrats have gotta relearn these names, you know: Jefferson, Jackson, Bryan, Roosevelt, Truman." - Kevin Phillips, 10/15/04

    by DCFD Rudi on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 12:08:50 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

  •  Weeeell (none)
    Maybe more open minded and therefore more willing to try different things. There's also the competition/political thing. I decided not to buy Microsoft stuff when I heared Gates was supporting the neo fascist Bush. Thought he was better than that, lots of money to charity etc. So I went over to Linux.

    What's the point in capitalism without competition? We're supposed to believe that capitalism works because it gives us choice, but it's anti-competitive by it's very nature. We therefore get less choice and ultimately a monopoly. The very thing which is supposed to be so bad about Communism, and also the reason that so many Microsoft products are so poor. By our nature us lefties hate the sort of exploitation big companies like Microsoft perpetrate on consumers, so we subvert them by promoting competition. Ask yourself this, why has the economy always done better under a Democrat?

    And of course why should we put money into the pockets of people who are morally bankrupt and who are our political enemies.

  •  fasdf (none)
    you could also argue it the other way as well.  For example, "Liberals are too stupid to use a PC".
  •  we wonder why they call us elitist (none)
    I don't doubt the stats or even the technical/political nexus, but I worry that this is just the kind of assertion that gets us into trouble as 'elitists'. It's like saying "Why don't hick morons buy a Volvo instead of a stupid Chevy? Volvos are much better cars."

    Well, one reason is that like Volvos and Chevys, Macs are way more expensive than PCs. I'd much prefer to have a Mac myself but had to settle for a $500 Dell.

    And Macs are not mass-marketed; the ad message is not "everybody should have one." The Apple mythos is about being independent, quirky, different. So we should not be surprised when they're bought by people who like to consider themselves the fringe.

    Anyway, my point is that dividing people by what they buy is moving into dangerous territory. I've known the most wonderfully progressive people who collect Precious Moments figurines. Be very careful when dividing people by "taste." It easily backfires.

  •  Yeah well . . . (none)
    It's not up to me.  I'm not paying for this computer, operating system, or browser.

    I am thinking of trying firefox at home though.

  •  It is simple. (3.60)
    Progressives believe in change for the better, not the big, status quo, corporate abusers.

    I am a Mac user.  I am a reform technocrat.

  •  Firefox (none)
    Go firefox!  I was a relatively early adopter of the browser, and love it.
  •  I'd like to think that my post in the other thread (none)
    about Apple being successful even in this economic climate and supporting progressive causes triggered this investigation.  

    Regardless, I less than three firefox and the Mac!  (Full Disclosure: I'm at work on a windows machine right now)

    Viva, Moz, Apple, & OSS

    Liquidtoast Blogl
    ---
    "Hell is other people at breakfast" - Sartre

    by Aurostion on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 08:27:12 AM PST

  •  Only reason I use IE instead of Firefox (none)
    I keep using IE only because ESPN's video plug-in only works for IE. What can I say, I need my fill of sports. Otherwise, no question, I'd be using Firefox. Thinkin' bout it now, I might just download it anyways and start using it :-D
  •  Silly Stuff (none)
    That's the conclusion I drew.

    It's fun to sort through site counter stats, but this isn't one of your more insightful posts, kos.

  •  Liberals are smarter (none)
    Sorry, couldn't help it.  I think it holds true that to be liberal, you must be open-minded, curious, and willing to challenge not only the system, but yourself.  I find that "Conservatives," on the other hand, tend to hold firm beliefs, are happier with the status quo and although willing to challenge themselves, are less willing to challenge the system.  If they find something that works for them, then great, they don't need to go beyond.  If Microsoft provides them with new products, it works for them, then great.  For liberals or, reformists, the status quo is more often challenged.  I'm not using IE right now, but I do use it.  Hackers, programmers and techies tend to be much more open-minded and want to buck the system.  You'll find that to be the case more often than not...just read the Hacker's Manifesto.  No damn Republicans are gonna be associated with anything that says, "Manifesto."
  •  Well, I'm surprised (none)
    Both my husband and I use Opera at home - but I didn't see Opera listed in that spiffy pie chart.
    Oh well.
    Obviously, this means the two of us need to visit dailykos more often!
  •  Wow, (none)
    those platform figures are amazing.  I don't hang out  conservative sites, but it has seemed to me that Mac usage at any of the nonpolitical forums I do visit is much higher than market share figures would indicate.  I'm delighted to see it so high here at Kos.
    I love Safari, except that when you throw a lengthy, type-filled page at it the scrolling is abysmal.  So I keep Mozilla in the dock to use when I'm here at Kos.

    Bush is a messianic, megamaniacal, imperialistic, sociopathic, borderline retarded facist. But there's also a down side.

    by jazzmaniac on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 08:33:17 AM PST

  •  Linux/Firefox here (none)
    Better than 98% of the time I use Linux and Firefox.  A great combo.

    If you like this comment, please visit It Affects You

    by up2date on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 08:33:49 AM PST

  •  teachers. (none)
    teachers use Macs a lot

    I suspect we also tend to be on the liberal side... 'cause we're smarter. :)

    How many of us here are teachers?

    "Bush lied, thousands died, IMPEACH BUSH NOW!"

    by Sue in NH on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 08:35:00 AM PST

  •  Downloading Firefox Now - Thanks (none)

    Heard about Firefox, thanks for reminding me. I believe it is more secure and offers more features than IE

    Just downloaded at

    http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/

    Thoughts from Connecticut

    by ctsteve on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 08:35:02 AM PST

  •  re (none)
    Think Different.

    Here is some money, go watch a Star War - Lucille Bluth

    by cookiesandmilk on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 08:35:15 AM PST

  •  In case people are still scratching their heads... (3.66)
    Firefox is a new browser available at:

    mozilla.org

    Other than being able to organize bookmarks better and being a little faster on account of loading up text before pictures, the main feature is that the browser allows you to organize all the pages you're currently viewing via the use of tabs at the top of the 'window' you're viewing. Thus, intead of having all the page markers you're viewing lined up or stacked at the bottom in an annoying mess, you can have neat tabs at the top and only one marker down below, that of the one Firefox 'window' you're currently using. To get a new page/tab, all you do is hit control-T.

    Anyway, I think kos is on to something. I think it's all about our exploratory nature, our progressive nature, our lack of fear when it comes to trying new things, etc. It's definitely a neat trend.

  •  We're really reaching here. (none)
    Isn't there something more relevant?

    "Change is one thing, progress is another." - Bertrand Russell

    by MemphisBryan on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 08:36:06 AM PST

  •  Technology/Political Correlation (none)
    I agree that liberals do tend to be more open to new and better technology. The definition of conservatives is that they relish tradition and do not embrace change. Therefore, what is easiest and more mainstream is what they tend to favor. I work with all conservatives and the one comment I get is "I don't do change very well". In fact my group of co-workers would prefer having nothing to do with computers. They feel that we are too dependent on them and therefore we are vulnerable to them. Needless to say I am the only Democrat in the office. Lonely days!
  •  Conservatives would also flip out (none)
    if they were technologically smart enough to figure out how much information you can collect just from the traffic coming into a web site.

    A truly fiendish person would pose as a libertarian over at LGF and DEMAND that the site stop collecting such personal information! You could start quite a food fight over there... ;)
  •  Well, I like Bill Gates (4.00)
    I don't have a problem saying so.  He has done more for kids in Africa than anyone else in the world, and he has also been at the forefront in autism/aspergers policy, and research.

     Now I know there are issues with company profile, and corporate abuses, I understand.  But as a mom, one issue trumps another.  It's kind of how people vote.

    The main issue for me, is the corporate bullying behavior likely to continue, or has Microsoft learned it's lesson?

     I like to see diversity in technology, and I like to see a level playing field, but on a personal level, I think Gates is a good guy.  

    Probably as much as repubs think Bush is a good guy at heart, but awe shucks, misled Americans,  or maybe made a few mistakes, but that is a correlation that I am reluctant to go into.  

    I also hope Apple does good this quarter,  Ipod is cooking and bringing in new users through the music and media thing, and X-box and halo 2 is cooking, so I am really hoping the Christmas season pays off for me.  

    Do NOT shop at Walmart, buy Ipods and Halo 2 for all your friends!!!

  •  This might not be a complete panacea. (none)
    Microsoft, for all of its failings, is a Blue company, and the Gates Foundation does lots of good stuff. (Source: ChooseTheBlue.com.)

    Mind you, it's hard to find any red tech companies, which gets back to that smart thing again...

    DMt

  •  Something Funky is p (none)
    The number for total IE (IE 5 + IE 6) I have seen change back and forth from 50% to 70% over a matter of minutes.

    Something weird is going on with their numbers.

  •  class differences? (none)
    among other things, this may illustrate class differences between the left and the right - there is something to be said about people who have the time, resources, and know-how to spend seeking out other operating systems.  
  •  Using conservatives (none)
    Liberals are more likely to use non-Microsoft products and conservatives.

    Well, that's exactly what we should be doing: using conservatives!

    :)

  •  Another Correlation - Politics and Browser Choice (none)
    I'm the guy my friends and family call when their PC starts to suck wind.  First thing I do for everyone of them is install Firefox, because I am running into so many people that have spyware and viruses from running IE.

    Anyway, I got to thinking about all these folks that I help and how most have no idea there is a choice in browsers.   They have no idea they need to upgrade their Windows installation for security purposes.  They don't know what a firewall is and don't care.  They are blissfully ignorant until the damn thing won't run or their data is wiped out.

    To me, it's very similar to the blissful ignorance of so many that voted for Bush. They go along blindly thinking they are safer with him. That the world is safer because of him and that everything is A-OK. Until of course their world starts crashing, their freedoms are compromised, their neightbor is killed in Iraq, and their job is outsourced to China.  Then suddenly they see the dangers.  

    Just like it's my job to make their PC secure as a friend, it's all of our jobs collectively to install Firefox in their brain and make them realize that their blissful ignorance is just that...

    Time to get back to work.

  •  age/browser correlation? (none)
    I'd be very interested to see a survey charting browser use by age. I suspect that older internet users are far less likely to use new (hence "untrustworthy") browsers. My dad, for instance (a former college V.P., former professor, etc...very smart) recently bought a spiffy new iMac...so I go over there and he's using IE. WTF?!? It's because that's what he's always used...so why change? Younger users don't have that kind of loyalty...we use IE, then learn IE sucks, so we migrate en masse to Firefox. I got a Mac, and have used nothing but Safari.

    And, given the correlation between age and political ideology (older people are more conservative, generally speaking), it's not surprising to see that the more conservative sites tend to have a lot more IE users.

  •  Remember this? (4.00)
    ..."Insufficient consideration has been given to the new underground religious war which is modifying the modern world. It's an old idea of mine, but I find that whenever I tell people about it they immediately agree with me.

    "The fact is that the world is divided between users of the Macintosh computer and users of MS-DOS compatible computers. I am firmly of the opinion that the Macintosh is Catholic and that DOS is Protestant. Indeed, the Macintosh is counter-reformist and has been influenced by the 'ratio studiorum' of the Jesuits. It is cheerful, friendly, conciliatory, it tells the faithful how they must proceed step by step to reach--if not the Kingdom of Heaven--the moment in which their document is printed. It is catechistic: the essence of revelation is dealt with via simple formulae and sumptuous icons. Everyone has a right to salvation.

    "DOS is Protestant, or even Calvinistic. It allows free interpretation of scripture, demands difficult personal decisions, imposes a subtle hermeneutics upon the user, and takes for granted the idea that not all can reach salvation. To make the system work you need to interpret the program yourself: a long way from the baroque community of revellers, the user is closed within the loneliness of his own inner torment.

    "You may object that, with the passage to Windows, the DOS universe has come to resemble more closely the counter-reformist tolerance of the Macintosh. It's true: Windows represents an Anglican-style schism, big ceremonies in the cathedral, but there is always the possibility of a return to DOS to change things in accordance with bizarre decisions; when it comes down to it, you can decide to allow women and gays to be ministers if you want to.

    "And machine code, which lies beneath both systems (or environments, if you prefer)? Ah, that is to do with the Old Testament, and is talmudic and cabalistic..."

    Umberto Eco, September 30, 1994

  •  The "old" (none)
    saying goes:

    PC people read the manual BEFORE starting their computer, and Mac folks just refer to it when they are really stumped.

    This mac person hates IE, and has used Netscape for years (despite having trouble with the fun stuff on sites like this).

  •  Rush Limbaugh uses Macs (none)
    As a counterexample, Rush Limbaugh has actually used Macs for quite some time and praised them several times on his show.  He has also ranted against oh-so-liberal Steve Jobs and some of the oh-so-liberal decisions he's made for his company (e.g. putting Al Gore on the board of directors).  Basically he likes the product, but he doesn't particularly like Apple as a company.
  •  Where is Opera??? (none)
    I use Opera. However, I have always had a soft spot in my heart for Mozilla...now known as Firefox.

    Interestingly enough, I still have the need to startup IE. It seems as if there are still web developers that develop websites that ONLY work with IE.

    I think that this IE-only website stuff is disgusting.

  •  How do I get Firefox (none)
    web browser?  I've had it with IE.

    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty, than those attending too small a degree of it. - Thomas Jefferson

    by ktxlib on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 08:49:11 AM PST

  •  technology & politics (none)
    Any political linkage with technology useage must be anecdotal.  It might be more linked due to avocation/ employment and if employment is institutional vs private/ public owned business.  And hopefully we've learned especially after the recent election cycle not to assume there is anything politically meaningful other than possibly economics... which could be a political linkage of sorts.  Guess I sort of got stuck in mid-stream.  So what does this have to do with the malaise of the progressive half of US today?
  •  Which Browser Do Mac Users Prefer? (none)
    For my part:

    1. Safari (best by far)
    2. Firefox (slower)
    3. IE (microsoft = another name for a Mac virus)
    4. Netscape (what happened?)

    We the undersigned urge you to support Federal funding for research using human pluripotent stem cells. -80 Nobel Laureates to Pres. Bush

    by easong on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 08:54:08 AM PST

  •  Connections (none)
    (1) Being informed versus ignorant.

    Anyone that follows technology and business knows that Microsoft's prominence in the market is due to predatory pricing and proprietary programming techniques that put their competitors at a disadvantage. It has nothing to do with a Free Market and better technology.

    Is it a stretch to correlate buying a product that's based on misleading and possibly illegal practices to voting for a candidate (buying) that has a record of misleading and possibly illegal practices?

    In both cases, a better-informed, less ignorant consumer would support the "product" that works better and got to the shelf honestly.

    (2) Transparency versus secrecy

    Apple and others have embraced the Open Source movement, putting code up for public review and trusting the people to do a better job of developing secure and solid software.

    Microsoft has been extremely reluctant to believe in Open Source, and continue to use secret programming to develop their products.

    Similarly, liberals believe in an open society. We favor a transparent government that works for the people.

    Liberals are Open Source.

    Conservatives -- at least BushCo conservatives -- believe in a secret government. They want to dumb down the people. They lie, mislead, exaggerate.

    Conservatives are the political Microsoft.

  •  Firefox, Safari, and Mac OSX rule (none)
    I use Safari on OSX 10.3 at home.  Haven't seen a pop-up window that I didn't want to see for a couple of years.

    I'm stuck with Windows 2000 at work, but I'm using Firefox now, and whoopee, no more pop-ups there, either.

  •  Firefox Extensions (none)
    Tabbed browsing and improved security are two key features of Firefox but all the extensions (add-ins) available are really the icing on the cake. One of my favorites is Sessionsaver which will save any particular combination of tabs you have up for retrieval at some future time. You name these sessions when you save them so you can have a favorite blog session, a favorite shopping session, etc. any of which can be recalled using a single click on the tools menu.
  •  Free Software (none)
    Free Software is something that we should all know about, because it's a model of socialism that is working today. The cost of reproduction of software is nearly zero. If I have a program, I can give it away to any number of people without diminishing my own ability to use that program. This applies to the source code as well, and in fact makes free software that much more powerful. Giving someone the ability to use a program is much less than the Free Software right to give someone the ability to change a program.

    And now today we have very high quality software that is available for free (in both the cost and the liberty sense of the word).

    Right now we have two possible ways that other goods could have their cost of production fall through the floor: nanotechnology, and robotics. Both of these technologies have the potential to change the balance of power in such a way that the regular guy can have access to more manufacturing power than a factory owner has today. With that would come a decentralization on corporate power, but only if the technology is spread widely.

    Everyone should have an awareness of terms of the software licence (the GPL) that underlies Free Software like the Linux kernel, and also how that differs from a typical shrink-wrap license that Microsoft provides with their software. In the future I can see the big battles being about that exact distinction as the oligarchy tries to keep control of their 'intellectual property' in the face of millions of people manufacturing all manner of goods, in their garages, and nearly zero cost.

  •  Firefox rox! n/t (none)

    It's the theocracy, stupid

    by AaronInSanDiego on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 09:20:47 AM PST

  •  aol (none)
    i wonder how aol fits in. do conservative users use it more for email?  
  •  silly correlations aside (none)
    In response to the several 'We're reaching here' comments: Knowing the technical profile of the people who visit a site is key, there is clearly a liberal/conservative difference in Mac/PC users - Our 'analysis' may not be all that profound here, but it's worth noting.

    I tend to think that market hegemony and political hegemony are two facets of the same problem: a dangerous concentration of power. What I would make of these stats is that the same people who are agitating for a more democratic government are also fighting technical hegemony. To those of you who don't think the computer world is deeply political, go back and read some of the history of this industry. There's a reason the internet is basically open: sixties idealism and the academic ideal of open sharing drove the early technical development of most of the technologies we rely on today.

    Ask yourself: why is it that the internet isn't a private network? How come we don't have the AOL, ATT and Sony networks that we log onto? It actually started to go that route (early AOL BBS for example). Microsoft is trying to make the world dependent upon their web based technologies which in turn puts them in control, you only have to look at what they did around Java to see that.

    I predict that in the near future China will embark on a major effort to create a full suite of apps for Linux as a way of avoiding the Microsoft 'tax' that would otherwise drain billions from their economy. Geopolitics, economics and technical trends - they all intersect.

  •  Correlative or Causative? (none)
    I'm not too sure that this data tells us anything useful, but it is interesting.

    Maybe someone could compare this with the political distribution of people on a heavily tech site like Slashdot?  Though, that would rely on self-reporting by Slashdot users, and would therefore be much more difficult.

    Just a thought.

  •  From a personal observation... (none)
    I think you could make the same correlation with politics and automobiles.  Not only do I love my Mac, but I also love my Honda.  My wife and I have owned three over the last eleven years and are completely hooked.  Conservatives tend to drive the Chevy/Ford varieties while liberals drive the Honda/Toyota varieties.

    Anyone else notice this or am I completely wacked out about it?

  •  Compare and contrast (4.00)
    There are definitely Firefox fans amongst the freepers. And they talk about it much more than we have.

    Interesting that Free Republic has a whole category just for discussing Firefox. And many here think talking about browsers is a waste of time. Obviously, we're not "wasting" time as much as they.

    Something to chew on....

    "Environmentalism does not need another Edward Abbey. It needs a Jon Stewart." -- David Roberts

    by lilithvf1998 on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 09:41:22 AM PST

  •  slightly ot: americafree.tv (none)
    I just recently found this site, and although I haven't yet been able to watch any of the content (I'm still struggling to get quicktime to work under Linux - anyone had any luck with this?), I like the idea: "We stream the best of the past from the public domain together with modern content under the Creative Commons licenses".
  •  I don't want my name sullied (none)
    with anything Microsoftian.
  •  I think this whole idea is a bit silly (4.00)
    But I'm a liberal (socialist, really) who works at Microsoft and runs Firefox at both home and work except for the few pages that only run on IE.

    The idea that Microsoft is some horrible company is silly. Speaking as an individual and not an employee, it's definitely a predatory company in many of its practices, but that's capitalism. Don't like it? Get rid of capitalism.

    Microsoft is not lying to its investors or engaging in shady business practices like Enron. It's not making the bulk of its money in war (though of course they do sell to the military). It's not in the pockets of Republicans, though like all corporations in our corrupted democracy it tends to give money to both parties to hedge its bets. Some executives like Bob Herbold are nasty Republicans. But just as many are enlightened liberals, starting with Bill Gates himself.

    Microsoft dominates its market by selling "just good enough" products to a mass audience. People buy Microsoft because it's often a better deal than its competitors. In terms of security there are some big problems, but part of that is that when you run 90% of the world's computers, you'll be targeted for at least 90% of the world's hacking and viruses. I think the people over in the Windows division (I'm in the Office organization) need to do a better job, and it's a shame the browser has been neglected recently.

    But look what happens when Microsoft falls down on the job. Other companies start doing better. There's nothing about the government's settlement with Microsoft that made Firefox happen. Firefox happened because people decided to make better software. I loved Netscape at first, but by the time the lawsuit against Microsoft came around, Microsoft had a much better browser. I really think in most cases where Microsoft has done better it's because it's done better listening to customers and giving them enough of what they want for a cheap enough price to beat its competitors.

    You don't like Microsoft? Fine. But don't pretend it's because it's an evil company. As corporations go, it's not so bad. As corporations go. With a lot of millionaires around and a bit of a libertarian ethic, it's certainly biased internally toward upper middle class values. There's not going to be a recognized union there any time soon, unfortunately. But it's not evil, and it's not stupid, and the people who use its products are not evil or stupid. Not even comparatively.

    Proud citizen of the provisional Canadian province of Cascadia since November 3, 2004

    by seaprog on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 09:59:38 AM PST

  •  open source is a political action, like (none)
    credit unions and co-ops

    and it makes sense to support the efforts

    another example of the reform democrat's positive vision for america, and of proaction and not reaction

  •  Of COURSE there's a relationship ... (none)
    Anybody who has a choice and uses Windows is either a) a   decades-long Dark Side user with no time or oomph left to learn new tricks (understandably), b) someone who has never experienced the Glorious Liberation & Joy of the World of Macintosh, or c) an idiot.

    This is plainly shown by the figures you cite and will always be the case. One can no more exhort the masses to get up off their pallets and walk than one can wish away the winter. After all, Bush is president, mankind is destroying the world, and Macs have a miniscule market share.

    The other day I was talking to a highly educated professional who has always used Windows and owns the very latest high-zoot PC. He was having trouble with MS Word's nefarious hidden text formatting gobbledygook and wanted to clean something up. I told him to paste the text into a plain-text word processing app, save it, and then grab it from there. I told him there was such an app built into Windows and Mac OS and everything else.

    He said, "there is?"

    "Yes."

    "Where IS it?"

    This would be one to whom item b) above applies.

    WongoBoy's from here, but his buddy blogs at FarrFeed.

    by WongoBoy on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 10:11:00 AM PST

  •  Firefox is an incredible piece of software (none)
    I never thought a web browser could be better than what it was. I tried it and was immediately hooked.

    I know that's a pretty hokey testimonial, but every word is true. Seriously, try it.

    Does anyone want to know how to google bomb tom delay?

    by danthrax on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 10:16:38 AM PST

  •  94% Windows? (none)
    Lord, no wonder they act like they've got sand in their crack.
  •  M$ supports Repugs, Apple supports Dems (none)
    'Nuff said. Steve Jobs was an informal advisor to the Kerry camp. I heard Bill Gates is a Dem, but his company gives to Republicans because Bush/Ashcroft let him off the hook for his monopolistic crimes.

    Anyway, my Mac w/ OS X is an extremely fun and easy and reliable computer. So what if I paid $100-200 more than for a similar PC?  This thing has never broken, it has crashed maybe four times in four years, never had a virus in 15 years of using Macs.

    I'm don't think everyone should buy a Mac, but the current 90-10% split is ridiculous. 50% of people should be buying these, I don't know why so many fall into the homogenous buying habits. If 50% of consumers purchased Macs then the software availability would be the same (it's almost the same already) and the prices would be even closer than they already are.

    But oh well. As long as I still have a choice I'm happy.

  •  Okay...so why not IE? (none)
    Why Firefox or Safari or Mozilla? Everyone seems to say their superior, but I've only used IE, Netscape, and Opera, so I'm in the dark here. And please don't just "They're so much better!!!" Why? Is it just a speed issue? Sell me on it...
  •  FYI - problems with IE (none)
    Here are some reasons why people shouldn't use Internet Explorer.

    The page is by a CMU CS student who knows his stuff.

    Windows is crap, too, but it's a fact of life, like pollution in big cities.

  •  Go With Firefox (none)
    If you like downloading patch after patch to fix the next huge security flaw in IE, then by all means continue using it.

    Otherwise, use Firefox.  Your computer will thank you.

    Don't get marginalized. Get even.

    by jmgotham on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 10:52:43 AM PST

  •  Firefox @ work, Safari/Firefox @ home (none)
    Have to run WinXP @ work, from home it's Mac OS X and Safari or Firefox, depending on site I am surfing to...
  •  Oh, I have an opinion about this (none)
    The correlations don't strike me as all that impressive, actually. But the explanation for the relatively high proportion of Daily Kos readers who shun Windows/IE probably involves the fact that OS X and Linux users are disproportionately anti-authoritarian. Last time I checked, the GOP was very big on authoritarianism.
  •  Another option.... (none)
    I stumbled onto SlimBrowser, another alternative along with Firefox, Opera, etc. I use Firefox only every so often for a Java-intense site I visit.  What I am really looking forward to is the day when I gather enough nerve to switch fully to Linux.

    And that comes from a 57-year old who was quite comfortable in DOS (.bat files helped my XT to fly) and when he was thrust onto a Mac, spent the first week cursing and wanting to see a command line.

    Please visit my webby, www.stumpysfindings.com. A friend said, "I feel like I've entered a slick modern museum of cool stuff."

    by stumpy on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 11:10:38 AM PST

  •  Open Source Election Software (none)
    I haven't checked sourceforge, instead I'm lazily asking here: are there open-source replacements for Diebold and ES&S software being worked on?

    This is not a time for Democrats to retreat and accommodate extremists on critical principles -- it is a time to stand firm. -- John Kerry

    by Feanor on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 11:40:57 AM PST

  •  As a geek (none)
    ... I ALWAYS make it a point to netcraft a candidate's website to see what they are running. With the exceptions of Al Gore and John McCain, Republicans run IIS and Democrats run Apache on Linux. Al and John both ran Apache on Solaris.

    While I realize this is not a big deal for non geeks, to me, I have infinitely more respect for candidates that have chosen to break away from the sofware monoculture than ones that are simply tech sheep moving with the herd.
  •  Other reason for shift (none)
    One possible factor for the rapid shift at dkos is the decreased use of dkos post election. Maybe the hard core dkos readers are more likely to use alternative browsers then the casual dkos reader.
  •  It's like Cotton vs Polyester (none)
    Mac users love the feel and elegance
    of a high quality OS.

    Artists especially feel the quality difference.

    PC artists are the "why pay more?" people, and
    probably buy their polyester socks in bulk.

    A few years ago, there was a blackout at a facility
    near by.  The motherboards on all of the pcs
    fried.  The Mac came through just fine.

  •  a problem with MS (none)
    is that if you live from a product of a monoculture, a virus can come and wipe you out.  We live in a danger of a new Irish potato blight.

    The second problem with MS is that when no company dominates a market, inter-operability requires well formulated and properly updated industry standard.  If you have a quasi monopoly, you maintain it by subverting the standards, even your own.  Hey, if people are forced to buy a new version of your product, is it really wrong?

    Subverting standards leads to tools that produce non-compliant web pages, but also prevents a methodical approach to security problems, and hinders development of programs -- especially by the competition.

    My third problem is that MS fosters wizzy-wig idiocy, but now everybody does it.  Wizzy-wig's are pretty bad for writing books etc.

  •  Check out Politech (none)
    Those of you who are interested in the intersection between politics and technology should check out Declan McCullagh's Politech newsletter. Declan is a reporter for C/Net, and every week or so he sends out a batch of mails on political-technological subjects. Sort of a blog-by-mail, if you will.

    Some of the subjects he's covered are black box voting, peer-to-peer filesharing, the Patriot Act, various attempts to turn over Sony vs. Universal (the "Betamax" decision that makes VCRs legal), copyright and the commons, end-user license agreements that proscribe what you can do with software, and dozens of other topics.

    Check it out at http://www.politechbot.com, and if you're interested, there's a link there to subscribe. Our Man In Redmond gives it two mouse clicks up. Highly recommended.

    Isn't it ironic that the 51% of the electorate who voted for a chimpanzee includes everyone in the US who doesn't believe in evolution?

    by Our Man In Redmond on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 12:08:17 PM PST

  •  i'll never forget the time (none)
    i went to the Free Software Foundation and this guy told me that when you think about it, Apple is more Proprietary than Microsoft.  He was right - the OS and the hardware are created by them.  they control alot more of the user experience than MS.  i told my sister and her bf to buy a new mac so they could use unix (osx) since they only buy macs as one of them is a dj and was anti-ms.

    but, if you want to be serious about it, just install linux and don't pay any of the big corps.  then, you can go on and on about not supporting some corporate machine.

    Meme for the season: "Power before principle Republicans" Ex: "Today, we saw yet again the Republicans place power before principle as they attemped to..."

    by lostinbrasil on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 12:10:47 PM PST

  •  Apple is the Innovator, Microsoft is the Thief (none)
    Jobs has made this industry.
    Gates just cops Apple does then dices out cheap
    imitations for the masses.  It's interesting how he seems
    committed to doing in the very company that he depends on
    for ideas.

    This Christmas they've come out with, guess what, a cheesie
    version of iPod.

  •  interesting path (none)
    It is very interesting how various comments here turned into threads about censorship, intelligence and corporate crime.

    I have a different take.
    Microsoft is one of the trail blazers of using press releases rather than actions to manipulate reality. They have been lying (read: marketing) about "innovation" and "security" for a long time and people believe it.
    When someone suggests that buying successful competitors and killing new development, they accuse their detractors of being against "innovation". Compare that with the people who believe that questioning the wisdom of belligerent, military foreign policy with "hating America."
    Microsoft is the master of manipulating perception and the people that think for themselves make the sane choice. In some cases that is Microsoft, but it is out of necessity (because of software only available on MS) but when there is choice, thinking people make appropriate choices.

    This administration says "We are safer because of what the Bush administration does. Homeland security, invading Afghanisstan and Iraq"
    Microsoft says their software is secure because ... well because they say it is in spite of all contrary evidence.
    It's the same thing.

    Also, Michael sounds like the "Michael" over at Blogs for Bush where deleting anything with a dissenting view whether it is respectfully written and referenced is par for the course. So far there have been a number of responses to his hand grenades without anybody making personal attacks or calling him a troll. Yes, I think there is a differnece between the audiences and the non-microsoft users at the conservative sites are probably attributable to people with open minds subjecting themselves to those rants in pursuit of honest discussion.

  •  Firefox is just cool. (none)
    At work, it's IE all da time.

    At home, I use Firefox exclusively. My IE pings my Spy Sweeper far too damned often, as parasites, popups, spyware, etc. are all designed for IE. I found some good stuff at Augma to clean up that crud, but I've had no time to d/l and use it all.

    Plus in Firefox: cute itty bitty browser icons. Okay, so I'm easily amused by shiny things. Whaddaya gonna do about it?

  •  Something I'd like to see (none)
    I have a hypothesis that those with unfiltered internet access tend to vote liberal, while people without internet access or with restricted/censored internet access tend to vote conservative.  I'd like to see someone do a study on this at some point.

    (Obligatory signature plug for which I beg your forgiveness | Enter the Jabberwock Dot Com)

    by Jabberwock on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 01:04:44 PM PST

  •  Liberals also are much more likely to screen (none)
    their calls with an answering machine.  Why?  I have no idea.  Maybe we're just more openminded about everything: technology, policies, etc.
  •  It's about demographics (none)
    Mac users are usually gay, metrosexual, French or francophile. Linux hackers are either atheist communists, atheist libertarians, atheist Randite libertarians or atheist wonk Democrats with libertarian leanings.

    Seriously.

    </Just kidding folks...  Or am I?>

    It's interesting that even Instapundit's numbers for Mac users is pretty similar to Apple's market share, and DailyKos' is much higher. It tells me that Mac users are more likely to participate in political blogs than Windows users. The number of Linux users for either blog is higher (by my recollection) than the actual penetration of Linux into the desktop market -- though that is somewhat to be expected because geeks are more likely to participate in discussion forums.

    -- Want to make a difference? Join the taskforce! --

    by fwiffo on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 01:14:19 PM PST

  •  Informal Poll (none)
    It looks like 1% of current Kos users are counted as being from the same time zone as Iraq.  

    Are you stuck in the green zone?

    Do you have your computers clock set to have the same time as your loved ones in Iraq?

    Are you an insurgent?  

    Are you a Ukrainian protestor trying to get the latest on your coming election?  

    Why are you awake?

    Other explanation?

  •  Then maybe Kos should walk the walk... (none)
    ...instead of just talking the talk.

    The Daily Kos is using an HTML 4.0 transitional DOCTYPE - so very 1999.  This page alone is over 3000 lines of HTML with TABLEs and clear GIF images used for positioning.  Nice.  Is it still the 20th century because I could have sworn it was almost 2005.  I'm seeing HTML written in mixed caps, non quoted attributes, tables nested up to three deep, non terminating tags left open, improper nesting of elements, non semantic tags used (the "i" tag instead od "em" the "b" tag instead of "strong")  etc.  I even encountered the SMALL tag for crying out loud.

    So, let's not crow about what a bunch of techno-sophisticates we all are until we are actually crowing on a software platform that resembles something coded within the last 4 years.

    I love the Daily Kos for the content and for the debate and for many of the community members here and I really don't give a shit about what's under the hood, but techno snobbery bugs me.

  •  Firefox ROCKS! (none)
    With ya all the way on this one, Markos!

    My G4 with OS X 10.3.5 and Firefox is like a whole nuther world compared to my Pee Sea.

  •  PCs Cost More (none)
    The box itself is cheaper, but my friend who administrates a facility of both Macs and pcs says that pcs require more service calls and have have far more problems.
  •  asfd (none)
    Don't throw out a right winger "draw your own conclusion" disclaimer.  What exactly are you saying?
  •  Can someone clarify? (none)
    I use Netscape 7.2. Its about screen says it uses Mozilla 5.0. It has tabbed browsing. Is this the same as Firfox?

    Also, on the Mozilla site you can download Firefox, Thunderbird, or Mozilla Suite. Is the Suite just the other two bundled? Or is Firefox newer than the Mozilla browser in the Suite?

    Thanks.

    Composing The News While The Media Is Decomposing - www.NewsCorpse.com

    by KingOneEye on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 03:39:33 PM PST

  •  I have no clue what that data means (none)
    But FYI I use firefox and it rocks !
    with sage RSS newsreader, and some tab browsing extensions and ad blocking.

    My only critisism of it, is that it take a while to start up, but once its up it doesnt crash and works flawlessly.

    I used Opera before this, but the ads were annoying and it didnt render about 15% of the sites I visit properly, so that made it useless, well frustrating.

    firefox opens just about everything fine.

    IE sux.

    I use win XP, because Linux doesnt support a lot of stuff I use and need. but I have a linux box i futz around with, and its getting a lot better and more useable than ever.

    wont be long before it can seriously compete in the home and enterprise desktop market I think, especially overseas.

    I dont have any faults with XP to be honest. since win2K windoze has been pretty reliable and stable, and with the right precautions, not that hard to gaurd against malicious code or users. I think a lot of MS bashing is just fashion. There aint a better app in the world than MS office, thats for sure.

    I am a Reform Democrat

    by Pounder on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 03:57:38 PM PST

  •  I've had very good experience with Mozilla (none)
    I've been using Mozilla Firefox about 3 weeks with no complaints at all.

    It might not be so smart, however, to signal to Microsoft that progressives don't like them...  It would be better to get the right-wingers to follow suit...

  •  That's 22% using a UNIX variant (none)
    Since Mac OS X is built from a BSD fork, it is, at its core, UNIX, and a UNIX that came up through the open-source ranks. I'm a Linux guy, but I do admire post-OS X Macs. Pretty and stable.

    Since Microsoft has made a business out of ripping off other people's ideas, I wouldn't be surprised to see them dump the NT kernel that is at the core of XP and 2000 and move to a UNIX derivative too. Maybe SCO. They seem to be pretty good buddies with MS these days these days.

    (Forgive the geek rant. I must be off my meds.)

    Let's bring democracy back, ok?

    by nodots on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 04:31:31 PM PST

  •  What's a pirate's favourite Web browser? (none)
    Safarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrri!

    Sorry, couldn't resist. I'll get my coat.

  •  Kinda Crap (none)
    That's actually kinda crap.  I'm as liberal as they come, but no one will ever pry my Dell laptop out of my cold dead hands.

    Nice thing about internet, the browser wars are such BS, you have to be desperate to actually care about it.

  •  Should anyone care.... (none)
    At 2:30 a.m. eastern time, the browser shares are:

    Kos: 57% IE Firefox 21%
    InstaPundit: 59% IE Firefox 21%

    Difference, maybe, a lot of people blog from work in the daytime, and don't have the option of using Firefox?

    I've been using it for more than a year, even did a couple of nightly builds.  Love it.

    I knew we couldn't legislate love, we most certainly could and will legislate against the acts of hate. ~~Henry Wallace

    by puddleriver on Fri Dec 03, 2004 at 11:31:18 PM PST

  •  Here's Another Angle. (none)
    Consider this: Microsoft was about to make had big entry into the antivirus market, but just about had the jumping off point, they turned tail and got the hell out of it. With good reason!

    If Microsoft had monopolized the antivirus market, it would simply have painted a big red target on its own butt. The only real protection for users that is out there right now lies in a diversity of antivirus systems.

    The same logic holds for other applications, including operating systems, browsers, etc. Our best protection, it turns out, is something called "security through obscurity." In other words, if we all use different browsers, we will, in fact, the doing one of the few things that can't protect us from mallware.

    For example, I use a fairly obscure antivirus program, a fairly obscure firewall, and a somewhat obscure browser. In addition, I have a few obscure anti-malware programs running continuously "in the background."

    REMEMBER: SECURITY THROUGH OBSCURITY !!!

    NOW, THIS WHOLE PHENOMENON TURNS OUT TO HAVE A VERY HUGE POLITICAL DIMENSION. Which is: the apparent fact that progressive folks are more inclined than conservative folks to choose security through obscurity probably means that these progressive people are essentially more paranoid than their conservative neighbors. THIS IS A MAJOR REVELATION !!!

    For some time now, I have labored under an assumption that the conservative folks are more paranoid than the progressive ones, AND THIS REVELATION IS TELLING ME THAT MY ASSUMPTION WAS JUST PLAIN WRONG. Apparently, progressive folks are actually more paranoid than conservative folks. INTERESTING !!!

    Just for the record, I happen to be a devotee a the currently way-unfashionable opinion that PARANOIA IS A GOOD THING. Yes -- paranoia is good -- and -- PARAPHOBIA IS THE BAD THING !!!

    So I am happy to come across this evidence that progressive folks are more paranoid (thus less paraphobic). GREAT NEWS INDEED !!!

    Here's Another Angle -- Microsoft was just about to make a big entry into the antivirus market, but just about at the jumping off point, they turned tail and got the hell out of it. With good reason!

    If Microsoft had monopolized the antivirus market, it would simply have painted a big red target on its own butt. The biggest real protection for users that is out there right now possibly lies in a diversity of antivirus systems.

    The same logic holds for other applications, including operating systems, browsers, etc. Our best protection, it turns out, is something called "security through obscurity." In other words, if we all use different browsers, we will, in fact, the doing one of the few things that can't protect us from mallware.

    For example, I use a fairly obscure antivirus program, a fairly obscure firewall, and a somewhat obscure browser. In addition, I have a few obscure anti-malware programs running continuously "in the background."

    REMEMBER: SECURITY THROUGH OBSCURITY !!!

    NOW, THIS WHOLE PHENOMENON TURNS OUT TO HAVE A VERY HUGE POLITICAL DIMENSION. Which is this: the apparent fact that progressive folks are more inclined than conservative folks to choose security through obscurity probably means that these progressive people are essentially more paranoid than their conservative neighbors. THIS IS A MAJOR REVELATION !!!

    For some time now, I have labored under an assumption that the conservative folks are more paranoid than the progressive ones, AND THIS REVELATION IS TELLING ME THAT MY ASSUMPTION WAS JUST PLAIN WRONG. Apparently, progressive folks are actually more paranoid than conservative folks. INTERESTING !!!

    Just for the record, I happen to be a devotee a the currently way-unfashionable opinion that PARANOIA IS A GOOD THING. Yes -- paranoia is good -- and PARAPHOBIA IS THE BAD THING !!!

  •  i wouldn't be so hasty (none)
    The trend may be changing -- the US military just replaced one of its servers with Mac (from NT) for security concerns... as an "interim" measure. See here

    Then again, maybe the military is turning liberal? One could only hope...

  •  Firefox extension for dKos (blockquote) commenting (none)
    I thought I read that there was already a dKos extension for Firefox, but I couldn't find whatever it was I thought I'd read about.  So, went searching for extensions that do HTML-type formatting and found BBCode - which rocks.

    I was able to add a 'dKos Blockquote' option that does the '<div class="blockquote">...</div>' thing for dKos-style blockquotes.  Will post shortly if doesn't already exist...

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