Daily Kos

The End of Outrage

Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 08:38:10 AM PDT

When William Bennett penned a book carrying this title, on the supposed moral decay of America (written in part, one assumes, in a comped room at one of the casino hotels he frequented in his search for virtue), Bennett focused on the American people's refusal to run Bill Clinton out of town on a rail for having consensual sexual relations with someone not his wife (Cough! B*o*j*b! Cough!).  Well, with that, it seems, outrage became a dirty word for us, completely delegitimized by Bennett's ridiculous and hypocritical sanctimony.

But, I find that I again need the word "outrage."  Because the nomination of Alberto Gonzales for the position of Attorney General of the United States is indeed an outrage.  Not because he is undistinguished.  God knows we've had plenty of undistinguished AGs.  Nor is it because he may have condoned criminality.  John Mitchell anyone?  No, being undistinguished and a tolerator of corruption is not enough to trigger outrage.

The obvious reason for outrage is that Gonzales was the prime legal architect for the policy of torture adopted by the United States, in violation of the Geneva Convention.  In recent days, the following words served as a cold slap in the face to my cynicism:

A quote by Avi Schlaim, an Israeli historian, on the issue of comparisons to Nazi Germany (in this instance referring to Israeli government and military leaders, but the parallel works here as well):

The issue isn't whether or not we are the same as the Nazis, the issue is that we aren't different enough.

Of course, Gonzales is not a Nazi. But he is not different enough.

Update [2004-12-11 13:54:27 by Armando]: - From WaPo -

The detainees, who cannot consult lawyers at the hearings, are not allowed to see the classified evidence or learn the sources of the allegations against them. Several contend that American interrogators physically and psychologically abused them until they made false, incriminating statements about themselves and fellow prisoners, according to their statements to the tribunals or their lawyers. In papers released Thursday, an Australian detainee who faces charges of war crimes asserted that U.S. interrogators repeatedly beat him while he was blindfolded, injected him with drugs against his will and offered him a prostitute in exchange for information about his fellow prisoners. "I can't believe these things can happen, that they can come and take your husband away at night and, without reason or evidence, destroy your family, ruin your dreams," Nadja Dizdarevic, the wife of a Bosnian Muslim seized by U.S. authorities in January 2002, wrote to the federal court. Her husband, Boudella al Hajj, was taken into custody on the steps of a Sarajevo court that had found him not guilty of terrorism charges. "Why? Why are they doing this to us?" Dizdarevic asked.

Guantanamo Detainees More in Extended.

A generation from now, historians may look back to April 28, 2004, as the day the United States lost the war in Iraq. On that date, "CBS News" broadcast the first ugly photographs of abuses by American soldiers at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison. There were images of a man standing hooded on a box with wires attached to his hands; of guards leering as they forced naked men to simulate sexual acts; of a man led around on a leash by a female soldier; of a dead Iraqi detainee, packed in ice; and more. The pictures had been taken the previous fall by U.S. Army military police soldiers assigned to the prison, but had made it into the hands of Army criminal investigators only months later, when a soldier named Joseph Darby anonymously passed them a CD-ROM full of prison photos. The images aroused worldwide indignation, and illustrated in graphic detail both the lengths to which the United States would go to get intelligence, and the extent to which those efforts had been corrupted by the exigencies of the difficult war in Iraq.

Carter

How did we get to that day?  One of the most critical steps on the Road to Abu Ghraib (and Guantanamo) was when the President's lawyers, led by one Alberto Gonzalez, concocted a dishonest and despicable legal argument for why the prohibitions against torture do not apply to the United States of America.

Again, Phil Carter provides the details:

But the lawyers--including White House counsel Alberto Gonzales, Defense Department general counsel William Haynes II, Vice President Cheney's counsel David Addington, and Jay Bybee of the Justice Department (who now sits on the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals)--went further. They advised the president to sign a blanket statement of policy that the men captured in Afghanistan would not be subject to the Geneva Conventions, and that by executive fiat, they would all be declared "unlawful enemy combatants," a category that does not exist in international law. White House, Justice Department and Pentagon lawyers also pushed President Bush to sign a secret finding on Feb. 7, 2002, that would have far-reaching consequences for the nation and the world. "I... determine that none of the provisions of Geneva apply to our conflict with al Qaeda in Afghanistan or elsewhere throughout the world," this document determined, adding that the White House also had "the authority under the Constitution to suspend Geneva as between the United States and Afghanistan, but I decline to exercise that authority at this time." For all intents and purposes, these memoranda gutted the Geneva Conventions.

Within months, those first legal memoranda were joined by more focused opinions from the administration's top lawyers, each authorizing specific tactics the Bush administration wanted to use in the global war on terrorism. Such tactics, argued the lawyers, didn't run afoul of the Geneva Conventions because the President had already unilaterally declared those conventions null and void with respect to al Qaeda and other terrorist detainees. This opinion also rendered the U.S.'s own federal war-crimes statute impotent, because that law defines a war crime as a violation of the existing international laws of war, including the Geneva Conventions. To be enforced, that law depends on the existence of a Geneva Convention violation; similarly, the Uniform Code of Military Justice prohibits war crimes, but without a Geneva Convention violation, there was no war crime.

The Bush administration's memoranda also took an excruciatingly narrow view of the federal torture statute, essentially defining it out of existence for the purposes of interrogations in Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay: "A defendant is guilty of torture only if he acts with the express purpose of inflicting severe pain or suffering on a person within his custody or physical control." In other words, interrogation tactics which accidentally result in severe pain or suffering were not enough to merit the label of torture. Only tactics which were specifically intended to cause severe pain and suffering--and performed by professional torturers with the knowledge of how their tactics would affect the body--would fit the definition under federal criminal law. Under this reasoning, amateur interrogators (such as the reserve military police soldiers assigned to Gitmo) could never be guilty because they lacked the skill and experience to know the exact causal links between their tactics and the pain and suffering those tactics would cause. The Justice Department also took the view that only someone who specifically intended to cause extreme pain and suffering, on the level of organ failure and death, would be guilty. This interpretation set a bar so high that virtually no prosecutor would ever be able to meet it in court, and opened the door to any use of coercive interrogation tactics that fell just shy of the "severe pain and suffering" threshhold. Justice's interpretation ensured no U.S. defendants would ever face torture charges and made the U.N. Convention Against Torture a dead letter too.

The Bush administration also chose Guantanamo as the site to hold detainees specifically because it was thought to be outside the reach of U.S. courts--and it was, until the Supreme Court ruled in June 2004 that detainees there had the right to ask a federal court for a writ of habeas corpus. In addition, the federal anti-torture statute excluded from jurisdiction military bases and diplomatic missions, such as Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib, a loophole that would remain open until October 2004 when Congress closed it. Thus, in addition to stripping the detainees themselves of rights, the administration picked a place where the law simply had no force--Gitmo provided the perfect legal black hole in which to house detainees and practice the dark arts of interrogation.

One of the problems cited by the Schlesinger report was the disconnect between tactics authorized at Guantanamo, where "unlawful enemy combatants" were held and the Geneva Conventions did not apply, and the tactics authorized in Iraq where the president had said the Geneva Conventions did apply. As guidance from the top filtered down through several layers of command, it became unclear which methods were appropriate for which location, an ambiguity compounded by the movement of individual interrogators and guard force personnel between the two physical locations. . . .  Miller imported a number of the non-Geneva Convention techniques from Cuba to Iraq to assist interrogators in gathering information, and by so doing reportedly turned on a spigot of human intelligence, leading, among other things, to the capture of Saddam Hussein. . . .  An after-action report on the "legal lessons learned" from the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, authored by the Army's Judge Advocate General ("JAG") school, found the same thing: "Detainees are a potential source of valuable information, and the motivation to extract that information through interrogation may sometimes create strong temptation to test the limits of the [law of armed conflict]. Questions often concerned the legality of specific proposed interrogation techniques." Army officers tend to understate these things, especially in after-action reports, so it's no surprise that Gen. Kern and the JAG school phrase their findings so circumspectly. But don't be fooled: This is the military equivalent of shouting from the rooftops.

The memos had another practical effect, which was the evisceration of any legal opposition from the ranks to the proposed methods of interrogations. Military units of a certain size are staffed with JAG officers, chaplains, and other professionals who typically serve as a unit's legal and ethical conscience. . . . Finally, the memos directly affected the junior soldiers, like Pfc. England, who now stand accused of torturing Iraqi prisoners. Every new soldier learns in basic training that he or she must follow lawful orders when they are given. But they also learn they must disobey orders--to kill innocent civilians, for example, or torture detainees--that are unlawful, and they cannot invoke "superior orders" as a defense when those orders are illegal. The junior soldiers now charged with abuses at Abu Ghraib should have objected to any orders to abuse prisoners, because they were patently immoral and unlawful. But in reality, that's easier said than done. After all, the orders to interrogate prisoners by coercion had come from the very highest levels of the administration. (emphasis added)

They had been filtered through every level of the chain of command without objection. Senior administration lawyers with Ivy League credentials and decades of experience had approved these procedures, including some that were startlingly close to those depicted in the Abu Ghraib photographs, such as the use of stress positions and hoods. It may be unrealistic to expect that a junior enlisted soldier such as England, or even her immediate supervisor, Staff Sgt. Ivan Frederick, would have the knowledge or the temerity to contradict such orders when they were given. The effect of the Bush administration's exhaustively creative research into breaking the rules was virtually to ensure that every player in this tragedy went along and followed orders.

And of course that was EXACTLY what was intended.  Alberto Gonzales did not turn a blind eye to torture after the fact.  Alberto Gonzales deliberately and with premeditation created a legal policy that was designed to foment torture.  There simply is no other conclusion that can be reached.

Now, call me old fashioned, but there used to be at least fig leaf of plausible deniability that would be attached to uh - "distasteful" policies.  In the past, someone like Gonzalez would have had to take the fall.  But in this brave new BushWorld, no one takes the fall for anything.  Instead, they get rewarded, promoted.  Rumsfeld, Rice, Bush.

And now, to be the chief law enforcement officer of the United States, the man who constructed the legal rationale for a policy of torture. It is a disgrace.

It is an outrage.      

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  •  In college.... (none / 0)

    I majored in Sociology and in this class I took from the token Republican at my liberal arts college, he made us read a book by Bill Bennette, I almost threw up. Not only did I have to read that garbage but I was tested on it!!! I can't remember what it's called but on the front cover is a quote by Rush Limbaugh saying "A Must Read!!"

    It's not easy being a Floridian

    by lawstudent922 on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 08:31:02 AM PDT

    •  hey me too (none / 1)

      I majored in sociology also but thankfully no one forced us to read any book like that.

      But since Rush Limbaugh says it is a must read, I will now have to go the the bookstore and buy it!!

      yeeeeeeeeea right

      •  Out of curiosity... (none / 1)

        I found the book on my book shelf, I don't know why I kept it but I kept most of the books I had to read in college. It's called...

        The De-Valuing of America--The Fight for our Culture and our Childen

        "Inspiring...Bill Bennett has the ability to communicate w/ real people. It's a good book; you should read it."-Rush

        I am skiming through it now, and I seriously don't know how I was able to read the entire thing. It's funny seeing what I underlined and what I wrote in the margins. I was a lot more politicaly conscious at 19 than I remember being.

        It's not easy being a Floridian

        by lawstudent922 on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 09:11:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You have to remember however (none / 0)

          what Rush Limbaugh's definition of "real people" is: people who hate liberals and progressives and look to authoritarian solutions to difficult social problems.

          That does kind of limit Bill Bennet's abilities, I'd say.  

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 10:27:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Bad Books (none / 0)

          "You may get better work out of yourself when you read really bad books."

          C. Wright Mills, The Sociological Imagination

          The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

          by DHinMI on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 10:32:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There's some truth to that... (none / 0)

            I wrote a paper about the "Moral Majority" for my Religion in America course. I mainly chose it because it was much more facinating to read about something that enraged me than something that juts re-affirms my own world view. Maybe if I can really understand those people I can better accept their behavior. Plus I loved reading about how Regan basically used the religious right and Falwell to get re-elected but then totally ignored him in his second term and Falwell was pissed.

            It's not easy being a Floridian

            by lawstudent922 on Sun Dec 12, 2004 at 01:15:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I agree with this (4.00 / 16)

    It's important to frame this very clearly. Gonzalez-torture-outrage. These three terms need to be linked, over and over, by the Democratic Senators with the courage to oppose this nomination. It's that simple.

    "We have found the weapons of mass destruction" -- George Bush, May 30, 2003

    by awol on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 08:39:47 AM PDT

    •  Thanks for that (4.00 / 11)

      It is that simple.

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 08:40:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  yes (4.00 / 3)

        it really is.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by DemFromCT on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 08:51:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Torturegate (4.00 / 9)

        I believe this is worse than Watergate, worse even, than voter fraud and Votergate.  For the reasons stated in this excellent diary, the torture memo drafted by Gonzalez, together with what now is his and Bush's, and by extension, OUR, "official torture policy" (it has not been rescinded), is as bad if not worse than any atrocity our government has previously committed because it is so overtly coming from and ordered by the top.  I think you have to go back to the forced moves of Native Americans (where Government officials knew how many would die) to find something so odius and evil that was directly orchestrated and ordered by the President.  But even that was not a plan to sanction the torture of other human beings by government officials and personnel.  

        I would also note one other thing that makes this absurd: torture does not work.  This has been noted in many of the articles about FBI agents and others who tried to blow the whistle on Abu Ghraib and Gitmo.  However, some in the media, including editors at prominent papers that I have gone back and forth with on this issue, continue to believe that torture during questioning is justified if it could save 1 American life.  In addition to getting the media to fully display all the pictures AGAIN (not for sensationalism but to show the extent of the horror), we must get the point across that torture is ineffective.  Just getting the media to publish the pictures again will definitely turn up the heat on Gonzalez.  I think it would also be interesting to ask Gonzalez what in his background qualified him to be writing such memos.  Did he used to be a cop or prosecutor?  Did he ever use torture to question witnesses?  If Gonzalez knew that torture was ineffective, Gonzalez was essentially sanctioning torture FOR THE SAKE OF TORTURE.  

        Thank you Armando for elevating this issue to the front page.  It is an excellent diary.  I know many of us have been tearing our hair out about the Gonzalez nomination and we are looking to organize to do something about it.  Now, with the Kerik withdrawal, the Bush juggernaut has shown weakness.  Perhaps this is an opportunity for us.  We should explore it, and we must get our Dem Senators to pile on.  

        I know at least 10 Kossacks who are posting on this on a regular basis.  Can we get the next post to be a call to arms for Kossacks and a list of things we can do in a coordinated way as the nomination hearings approach?

        PATRIOT I+II, MCA, FISA CAPITULATION, NOW TORTURE. YOUR COUNTRY IS SLOWLY BEING DISMANTLED. WHAT R U GONNA DO ABOUT IT?

        by maxschell on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 10:49:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  not rescinded (none / 0)

          Precisely, see my update.

          Everybody dies alone.

          by Armando on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 10:54:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  FILIBUSTER Scenario (4.00 / 1)

            Why don't we Kossacks write a draft filibuster for each of our Democratic Senators?  As a start, I have chosen Sen. Byrd, who was so eloquent in his stand against the DHS.  Please help me draft his filibuster speech by posting your revisions and extensions in replies!!

            Sen. Byrd:  My fellow Senators, I have stack of pictures in my office.  It is a stack that is 10 feet high.  This stack of pictures documents a horrific, Apolocalyse Now scenario that was directed and sanctioned by the man this President now seeks to install as Attorney General.  I might add that this man's memo created a policy of torture that remains the official policy of the United States.  

            I will now endeavor to describe each and every picture and enter those descriptions into the record of our esteemed body, so that Americans of future generations will know that there were those in this country and this Senate who spoke out against this odious and nefarious, and un-American policy, and against the man who brought it into creation.

            The first exhibit...

            PATRIOT I+II, MCA, FISA CAPITULATION, NOW TORTURE. YOUR COUNTRY IS SLOWLY BEING DISMANTLED. WHAT R U GONNA DO ABOUT IT?

            by maxschell on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 11:27:00 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Wouldn't it make more sense (none / 0)

              to bombard the members of the Senate Judiciary Committee with email, faxes, etc.?  I don't know who the new members will be come January, but the present members are people like Biden, who was GREAT on the need to observe the Geneva Convention.  His own son is in the fray, and he explained that we need to observe it for a lot of reasons, but for a good practical reason - if we don't, then when our guys get captured, the enemy won't.  We don't want to set that precedent, do we?  Sometimes I think the practical reasons may be the only ones that might get through to these people (though even that one didn't get through).

              Anyway, some of the committee assignments should survive - Leahy, Kennedy, Schumer, Biden, ther's a whole bunch of good Senators for us on this committee.  If we have good questions or info, send it their way.  They know how to ask the tough questions, and Schumer leaks to the press better than any politician I know.  At least if the committee hearings are loud, this won't be like a tree falling in the forest.

              We do not rent rooms to Republicans.

              by Mary Julia on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 12:18:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  It is (none / 0)

          We had a crisis then, but this goes to our safety abroad forever. Our troops' safety, our world image, everything is changed by this. We have a huge stain on our country now.
          Contrast this to our image abroad during the Cold War.  Huge difference.

          War is not an adventure. It is a disease. It is like typhus. - Antoine De Saint-Exupery

          by Margot on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 11:23:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Torture at Guantanamo (none / 1)

          The lack of coverage of this has been astounding, and is yet another part of the outrage. The United States - beacon of liberty and freedom, ant the self-declared protector of morality in the world, is intentionally and willfully engaging in the torture of other human beings, some of whom may be innocent and were merely swept up in the chaos of war.

          Make no mistake, our children and grandchildren will be talking about this and asking us "why?" Why was nothing done? What did you do about it? This episode of our history will make the forced internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II look like a an after school detention in comparison. We will look back with great, great shame.

          Torturing other individuals, for any reason, is morally repugnant and completely unacceptable. I don't care who they are and what they did. When you become what you despise, the transition is complete - you have slid into the morass of evil.

          No issue right now, neither the voting issue nor other aspects of the war, make me more ashamed to be an American than what we are doing at Guantanamo in the supposed name of self-defense.

          How long will the media and my fellow countrymen continue to simple overlook this?

          We are no better than the Germans who stood idly by ignoring the concentration camp at the edge of town.

          Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power - Benjamin Franklin

          by johninPortland on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 12:28:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Let's start with (none / 0)

          more new leaked photos. We KNOW that there are worse ones and we need someone with some real moral COURAGE to come forth with them.

          Maybe there is another copy of the original CD. Kept in a safe.

          People were shocked over the first pictures but could justify the abuse because at the time, there were a lot of beheadings happening. And also so many have no compassion for the Iraqui people. As far as they are concerned, these people are responsible for the WTC. WRONG.

          My thought was that if we want people to treat our troops fairly, then we have to adhere to that rule also. Torture is torture.  

          Wonder what would have happened if these detainees were Americans? McCain leading the outcry?

          We need the worse pictures and we need to point out that most of the detainees have been freed because they were innocent. And we wonder why they hate us.

          Where are you Deep Throat?

          I'm voting for the Democrat! End of story!

          by BarnBabe on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 01:23:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Kerik Tie in (none / 1)

          Must be noted that our newly nominated DHS Secretary has made a fortune off of tools used to torture detainees, tasers.

          I suspect the one case of Special Ops that is being investigated is not the only one.

          Basically a tacit approval....

      •  How? (none / 0)

        But how do we get them to do this? Go on an email deluge campaign?

        Vote with your Wallet. Buyblue.org

        by shark on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 08:16:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, but... (none / 0)

      These three terms need to be linked, over and over, by the Democratic Senators with the courage to oppose this nomination. It's that simple.
      I agree with you BUT they WON'T! Some of them will, and we know who they are, but MOST won't and they will be re-elected. So many od the things to do are so clearly defined, but the courage to do them is so often lacking. The people of Ukraine have shown us that we should have ALL gone to Florida after the stolen 2000 election.
      By the way, on Charlie Rose, President Carter said Al Gore should have run again.
      •  Gore might have won (none / 0)

        partly because I believe as Americans we like to give people a second chance, especially when they were robbed.  a little bit of a sympathy/justice vote + the real new-found passion by Gore could have carried him through.
        •  the... new-found passion (none / 0)

          Whether Gore owed his ability to resonate with the Democratic base in '04 to a greater level of passion or courage, or to the natural loss of inhibition that might (or should) result from spending several years out from under the stultifying yoke of a phalanx of political consultants, strategists, and advisors with their own array of dubious ideas about who and what he needed to be to connect with the electorate, he left a lot of us scratching our heads and wondering "where the hell was THIS person in 2000?"
      •  Democratics assure confirmation (none / 1)

        I was stunned about a week ago, listening to NPR on my way home from work, to hear that Democrats in the Senate had signaled the White House that they would not block Gonzalez's nomination for AG.  If they don't kill this nomination, they've got no spine whatsoever, and it would be a chilling parallel to the way they rolled over on Bush's first round of tax cuts in 2000.  If the Senate Democrats won't stand up for human rights and against torture and do whatever they need to do to block this most egregious nomination, what will they ever stand up for?  

        Sadly, I haven't read or heard anything over the week since that broadcast that gives me any hope for them.  On the contrary, Harry Reid, fearless leader, tries to appear thoughtful and diplomatic by demonstrating his openness to considering Scalia a viable candidate for Chief Justice!  This is not encouraging.  And don't forget: Gonzalez as AG is just supposed to be a stepping stone to his appointment (and presumed shoo-in confirmation) to the Supreme Court!

        I don't anymore know the country where I live .

        "A president who breaks the law is a threat to the very structure of our government....President Bush has repeatedly violated the law for six years." Al Gore

        by psnyder on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 10:04:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I Agree But... (none / 0)

      Unfortunately the majority of the American people apparantly don't consider Iraqis to be "human". At least not as human as Americans.

      It certainly appears that there is a huge amount of apathy (if not outright hatred) in our country right now.

      I have heard more than one person say something to the effect that "they got what they deserved" or " the only thing those people understand in force".

      It is truly scary.

      I hope the friggin pendulum starts swinging back soon or we will not recognize our country anymore.  

      •  Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales (none / 0)

        It scares/disturbs me that these people represent the moral fiber of our nation these days.

        We are a nation where possibly half its populace is filled with contempt and hatred for the rest of the world.

        The Repugs really are the worst this country can offer. How can anyone associate themselves with that Party?

      •  Then isn't this (none / 0)

        the other place where outrage needs to be directed?

        That's how the religious right got where they are, by flinging the outrage everywhere (and its not generally been directed at politicians, but at fellow citizens).

        I do think we have to ask Americans to engage in some politics of radical self-reflection, no matter how difficult and how unpleasant.

        That would make US (not the leadership) different enough from the Nazis, and the German populace in the 1930's.  

        The Kerry campaign had the right idea with the Langston Hughes poem as their theme: "Let American be America".  But, they dropped it (just like Al Gore dropped his populism.).  It won't be easy, but it has to be done.

        What is America?  What kind of America do you want.  Let people actually OWN their so-called morals.

        For me, what is America but a blueprint and a promise?  And promises, of course, can sometimes go unfufilled, as I belief ours is today. That's not just an issue of corrupt politics.  

        Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

        by a gilas girl on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 10:18:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Quibble (none / 0)

          I don't think Gore ever "dropped his populism," I think he finally let it loose during the Summer and Fall of 2000, which is exactly when he surged from behind Bush by probably 10 points to winning the race (but not by enough to prevent the theft in Florida).  It was only after Gore fired his original pollster--Mark Penn, who did Clinton's polling in 1996, and who after being fired by Gore polled for the DLC, Lieberman and is now polling for Simon Rosenberg and the NDN--and brought in Stan Greenberg, who's generally a populist, that Gore seemed to liven up and even loosen up.  It was as if Greenberg finally convinced Gore it was OK to be more like his father than like what he was being told he should be by Marty Peretz and the dodos at the DLC.  

          The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

          by DHinMI on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 10:25:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But at some point (none / 0)

            the campaign dropped it again and went back to the old DLC lines (right before the election), didn't he?  I remember there was this "window" of the Populist Gore for a while in the summer I believe,when his numbers went up, but for some inexplicable reason (at least to me) the campaign returned to the lockbox, free-trade, DLC stuff.  Maybe it was after the debates when he got eaten alive by the press.  I dunno.

            This is just my recollection, not anything factual, so I welcome being corrected in my errors, should they exist.  

            Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

            by a gilas girl on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 10:30:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Your Second Guess is Correct (none / 0)

              He pretty much kept to the more populist "the people vs the powerful" thing until the end.  The one thing where I think the Bush campaign kicked the shit out of the Gore campaign--one of the only things--was how they played the press after the first debate.  That ended Gore's momentum, and his completely different approaches to the three debates--smarty pants, contrite, and finally measured but still not sufficiently aggressive--pretty much kept things static for the last couple of weeks, with the late undecideds breaking toward Gore in the last 5-7 days making the difference.  

              Populism got him back in the race, but it couldn't overcome his lack of confidence in deciding on his public persona and sticking with it.  Kerry, otoh, benefitted from his steady and confident public persona--he didn't really try to reinvent himself too much, although the goose hunt was kind of a bust--but his lack of populism is what I think cost him greater support among working class white voters who aren't thrilled with the war or the economy, but couldn't relate to the guy because he didn't talk to their concerns or show that he could inhabit a world view much different than a reticent, New England Brahmin with an olympian temperament who's been in the Senate almost 20 years.  

              The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

              by DHinMI on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 10:40:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Outraged lite (none / 0)

          That's how the religious right got where they are, by flinging the outrage everywhere (and its not generally been directed at politicians, but at fellow citizens).

          Who is outraged? Certainly not the Democrats.
          How many people showed up in Florida after the stolen election?
          How many anti-war marches did we have since the begining of the War in Iraq?

          Outrage without action is nothing but a fart. It only leaves a mark for a very short time.

          •  There have been a lot of anti-war marches (none / 0)

            since the beginning of the war in Iraq -- obviously not as many as before -- but they aren't covered and most people who aren't directly involved in the peace and justice movement don't pay attention because they are too "pragmatic" and "don't see the point".

            Right now most US energy is sapped up by the election and its aftermath, but peace marches and events and peace work around issues in Iraq continue.  

            Check out global exchange, voices in the wilderness, madre, etc.

            Even our response to the election shows how US-centric Americans are; the incursion into Fallujah was a humanitarian nightmare but everyone here is claiming the most important thing in the world is the issue of fraud in the US elections.

            I'm not trying to say that voter suppression is not an important issue, but that there's some pretty horrendous stuff going on in our name right now that deserves equal attention.  

            Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

            by a gilas girl on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 11:00:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Walmart opens in Fallujah (none / 1)

              I would like to ask you "How many?> not to embarrass you, but to actually show that the movement lacks life on a scale that would warrant attention. I do know many small groups day in and day out protest in the center squares of Main Street USA. But here size matter. Americans are lacking energy because they are anesthesizing themselves while enjoying the comfort of a consumer society. This the great difference between the totalitarain regimes of the past and the "Technological Society" which gives enough to its members so it won't interfer with its purpose and even increase the momentum of the system. Americans are mesmorized by a system which makes certain they become addicted to its products so they will keep on toiling to acquire them. Credit is a slavery of sort to many people. This is why what is so vile in this system, under the veil of abondance, it lets people produce their own chains. And then it will accuse the fallen to be responsible for their own misery. Slavery without Masters to blame. If you point the fingers at them, they will tell you they were helping, you over did it. Your problem mate! Not ours. The horrendous stuff of Fallujah has its inception in the enormous consumption of the USA. In order for the engine to keep running we need the fuel. We must get the fuel at ANY price. This is a question of Life or Death for the system. What is so clever and so devious at the same time is to name the reasons for the quest for fuel: Democracy for everyone.
              •  The movement has always (none / 0)

                lacked a scale that warranted attention, that's one of the things you deal with when you do that kind of work. Doesn't mean you stop doing it.  In fact, those are the times its most important to do it.

                If you are basing arguments and seeking out folks to heap derision on, don't use a lack of support for the peace and justice movement as something new.  The middle class is generally afraid of "movements" in this country anyway, and given that most folks here are middle class, the path of derision and blaming is a pretty unproductive one, it seems to me.  More productive is to ask the question, what is it in middle class American culture that makes "movements" so suspect, so out of the norm, such a creature of strange surprise? Why does the US political culture so orient itself away from the politics of everyday life? To the big picture ongoing politics rather than the seasonal electoral politics?

                But, that's just me.

                Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

                by a gilas girl on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 12:20:52 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Too True (none / 0)

                I hate to state the obvious but many people don't care too much about what is happening because it will never be them.

                I can't imagine the system can carry on exactly as it is for too much longer, people are already becoming more aware of investing in their local communities etc.

                "The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie"

                by Little Hamster on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 02:42:32 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Comparison to 1930's Era Germany (none / 1)

          The apathy being shown by the American public today is not dissimilar to that exhibited by the German populace in the 1930's.

          The lead up to the atrocities in Germany seemed, I'm sure, harmless and those who would speak out against the creeping totalitarianism were ridiculed. Until it was too late.

          I don't mean to suggest that our Government will ever engage in those type of atrocities, unless they occur in foreign countries to those with brown skin.

           

    •  Isn't it more than torture tho? (4.00 / 3)

      Isn't it also the entire premise of breaking with the Geneva Conventions, stepping outside of the tenets of international law, trying to exclude US citizens from ICC jurisdictions?  Aren't all of these part of the same A.Gonzalez package, or at least related?

      [Not to mention his sage advice to the then Gov. Texas about death penalty cases, including those of retarded inmates and children.]

      BTW: I do like the phrase "the amount of creative research dedicated to breaking the rules".  Shows these guys aren't stupid, or even lazy, just unprincipled: they do have the smarts, creativity and get-up-and-go to apply themselves to problems and issues, but look at which ones.  

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 10:12:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Amoral (none / 0)

        Not immoral.  Completely without a moral sense.
        They can pander to their 'moral majority' base all they want, but they don't have a moral bone in any of them.

        War is not an adventure. It is a disease. It is like typhus. - Antoine De Saint-Exupery

        by Margot on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 11:27:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Gonzales-torture-outrage, YES (none / 0)

      and torture by any other name from domestic child-abuse to the treatment of Falluja civilians is an outrage.

      This man is bad for America AND the rest of the world.

      This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

      by Agathena on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 10:31:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  High moral ground: lost (none / 1)

      By appointing Gonzales, Bush is sending a message to the world that we have abandoned for good the high moral ground we used to have if our troops are tortured by the enemy.

      We signed the Geneva Conventions because they reflected the moral values of our nation.  Now it seems fine with Bush, the religious right, the Republicans, and with our Dem representatives to support a man who used all his creativity and legal expertise to devise a way to get out of this moral commitment in order to please the Pres.

      How can we get our so-called Dem representatives to speak up loudly on this issue on the basis of moral values?  

      The reason we are outraged about Gonzales is because of the horrendous moral callousness at work here.  I don't see Jesus saying anything about how it's OK to torture someone up to the point of organ damage.

      (Sending our troops out without armor is an excruciating psychological torture that sometimes results in death and mutilation, but that's another case of lack of ethics).  

      The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

      by Plan9 on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 11:06:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Juxtaposition R Us (none / 0)

      One one hand, we have Alberto Gonalez condoning torture, about which all humans should justly be outraged

      and on the other, we have a conservative "Christian" group complaining about NBC's broadcast of the Olympics opening ceremony which may have had a semi-nude woman in it.

  •  An outrage indeed (none / 0)

    Forget pining away for the days of Nixon, people like Gonzalez make me pine for the days when all we had to worry about was Robert Bork.*  And he's fucking scary enough.  

    *not that I can actually remember, since I wasn't even in kindergarten yet

    "Raybin is not a lying maniac. I've found this person to be an extremely clever and devious lying conartist, but never a maniac."--RElland on Daily Kos

    by Raybin on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 08:40:12 AM PDT

  •  Unethical (none / 0)

    The talking point should be that these guys are just unethical.  Unfortunatly, the word "outrage" is almost a joke.  No one takes it seriously, and it doesn't seem to have any effect on the populace.  It's time to start using something that sticks.

    Read more here

    •  I'm Bringing It Back into Vogue (4.00 / 4)

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 08:41:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  outrage doesn't work for me (none / 0)

        because every time I hear that word, I can't help but picture some old ladies at the beauty salon sitting under full-head hair dryers reading a tabloid magazine, going:

        "look at her thighs... aren't they outrageous!?"
        "tell me about it"

        "Did you hear that ben affleck made another movie?"  "What an outrage"

        After everything the Bush administration has said and done, the battery that triggers outrage in my brain has been depleted.

        •  The end of outrage? (none / 0)

          Let's hope that we're experiencing the end of American communal innocence.  It's shocking to me how much we've forgotten even in my lifetime; it would be more shocking if I found the majority of American people willing to collude in such outrages.  I sincerely hope that we've yet to experience a national awakening to the evils being perpetrated in our name.

          Especially by those in positions to do something about them.  

          When "stupidity" suffices, why search for any other reason?

          by wozzle on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 09:42:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Confirmation of Appointees (none / 0)

            Does the Republican majority in both Houses mean that all of Bush's appointees will be confirmed?

            Even if all Dem. Senators and Reps. vote against them?

            I really would like to know if this is a foregone conclusion.

            And if there's a tie vote, Cheney gets to cast the deciding vote. Is that right?

      •  Outrageously corrupt and depraved (none / 0)

        Not to mention deviant.  
    •  Unethical isn't sticking either (none / 0)

      apparently the Bush administration was just re-elected so being unethical isn't a major concern either.

      How about girly men?
      How about that Gonzales is REALLY from Massachussetts?
      How about he's gay?
      How about he's a Muslim?
      How about he hates freedom?

      ^^ These will work...

      •  except that (none / 0)

        The democrats haven't been pushing "unethical" as a major theme.  Rather, they've been going for death by 1000 papercuts and hoping the cuumulative effect will be enough for victory.  People have a short memory, and so that doesn't seem to work.  

        However, if you make the argument that each instance is part of a larger failing - that's when it starts to work.  Look at what they did to Kerry.  No matter what he did they referenced his actions and speeches back to "flip-flopping."  They developed a theme and stuck with it for 8 months, and it was very effective.

        Being outraged isn't enough.  These actions must be framed as part of something larger, something that will stick.  

      •  even better than unethical (4.00 / 5)

        ...immoral.  

        Come on folks, let's take this word back.  It's ours now.

        "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle

        by Susan1138 on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 09:00:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Criminal. (none / 1)

          Call it what it is.

          Criminal, barbarous, savage, and at the very least, UNAMERICAN.

          Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

          by bumblebums on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 09:11:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Call 'em what they are (4.00 / 4)

          Liars.

          Power hungry, amoral, hypocritical, win-at-all-costs

          LIARS!  Thats a meme that will stick, said often enough.  The defenses against would be

          1. stop lying (HA! not bloody likely)
          2. argue lying is part of the game, and everyone does it - try to paint all with the same brush (although this goes against their policy of never admitting weakness)

          or, the one they would probably use,

          3) Call the person saying LIAR! shrill and/or insane etc.

          However, saying LIAR! whenever they lie - and everyone knows they are lying - will cement it in the public's mind, regardless of how much they dismiss you.

          Wingnuts hate Big Media cause it sometimes tells the truth.
          We should hate it for the rest of the time when it don't.
          Oh, also when they eat brains.

          by Ugluks Flea on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 09:34:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The more I think about this (none / 0)

            the more I like the idea.  It should be the stock response to any talking head question:

            Well, this republican idea of XXXXX is all well and good, but it's important to remember that they are liars, and can't be trusted to actually tell you the whole story.  For instance... <insert story of lying here>

            Wingnuts hate Big Media cause it sometimes tells the truth.
            We should hate it for the rest of the time when it don't.
            Oh, also when they eat brains.

            by Ugluks Flea on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 09:39:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I'd go with this one (none / 0)

            That's exactly what they are.  And we should remind America that honesty is a moral value.
          •  imho (none / 0)

            Liars is not something that will stick.  It will either boil down to a semantic argument or be entirely dismissed.  People just aren't going to respond to this tactic.
            •  Not only will it not stick (none / 0)

              (technically they aren't always liars, they are just deceptive and dishonest), but it works against the Dems interests as well, since it just reinforces the notion that all politics is ugly and partisan.  Just because you call your opponent a "Liar" (even if s/he is one) doesn't mean that you will be looked upon favorably.

              That's the way that it becomes a win-win situation for the Rethugs.  Even when they "lose" they win in the long term, because excessive cynicism and distrust in the populace of the political system works to their advantage.

              Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

              by a gilas girl on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 10:35:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  It will stick (none / 1)

              better than:

              "he mispoke"
              "his statement included some errors"
              "his statement contained some untruths"
              "he veered from the truth"
              "he was inaccurate when he..."
              "the intelligence was faulty"
              "the source of his information was wrong"
              "he was badly advised that..."

              I prefer the bluntness of the General in Iraq who pulled aside Senator Biden and said: "Anyone who tells you we have enough troops is a G.D. liar."

              LIAR is a very good word.

              This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

              by Agathena on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 10:41:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Bennett (none / 0)

    Is there any truth to the assertion that Bennett was the submissive of a Las Vegas dominatrix?
  •  True, Gonzalez is not a Nazi (4.00 / 6)

    But if this were Nazi Germany, what do you think he'd do about it?


    "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right." - Salvor Hardin

    by Zackpunk on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 08:42:11 AM PDT

    •  Write a brief... (none / 0)

      supporting a final solution?

      In an insane society, the sane man would appear insane

      by TampaCPA on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 09:01:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Gonzalez Likes the Fuehrerprinzip (4.00 / 2)

      I generally detest the Bush & GOP=Hitler and Nazi anaologies, but this is one area where I think the differences aren't as great, at least in terms of the aspirations of some of Bush's hangers-on, like Gonzalez.  And Gonzalez' briefs that Armando mentions seemed to me as little more than a 21st century update of the Fuehrerprinzip:

      The Fuehrer's will became the foundation for all legislation. Indeed, with the establishment of Hitler's dictatorship, the Fuehrer principle (Fuehrerprinzip) came to guide all facets of German life. According to this principle, authority--in government, the party, economy, family, and so on--flowed downward and was to be obeyed unquestioningly.

      Based on the Fuehrerprinzip, the supreme leader acted as the ideological and political originator of antisemtic measures, supplemented by men who wished to prove their diligence, efficiency and indispensability. He approved and sanctioned their work, stamping his own personal imprint on the direction the work had to take. Hitler saw his particular strength in the ability to think consistently and simplify complex problems, deciding matters of political significance and of principle. This, to him, was an integral part of the leadership process. The figure of authority had to provide inspiration and not concern himself with administration. Nor must we ignore his idiosyncrasy as a terrible simplifier', as Hugh Trevor-Roper put it 5 , his staunch aversion to writing, and his deep-rooted impatience with intricate problems. The legislative process thus never varied: Hitler was to be approached only after everyone involved had taken a position on the issue. Proposals were circulated among the pertinent offices concerned, the stumbling blocks were removed, and only then did Hitler give his sanction.

      Bush isn't Hitler, and the GOP isn't fascist.  I'm not going to go into all the ways they aren't and I'm not intersted in fighting another battle where people who don't like Bush and the GOP call them fascists with the same degree of accuracy of wingers who call Democrats communists.  But this area, the melding of concepts of natural law and hierarchical legal authority, is probably the area where they're closest, and why Gonzalez is much, much closer to the Nazis than Ashcroft or the Neocons or Cheney or the rest of the crowd.

      The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

      by DHinMI on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 09:14:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Personally I like the Israeli (4.00 / 3)

        historian's take. It's not that they're like Nazis, it's that they are not different enough. It's what I was saying when this broke and the thing that hurt me the most about the defenders of it. I don't want to be less bad than the terrorists. I want people to look at the United States and say "That is how it should be."
      •  Years ago, I spoke with a very old man (4.00 / 6)

        who would be 105 by now.  He said that Hitler was popular when he started, building roads, restoring pride, etc.  Good people wanted to feel good and overlooked the first few little bad things.  As time wore on, their morals compromised, formerly good people could not speak up because they had gone along with bad act after bad act.  I think the warning about the Nazis was that evil will win if good people fail to act to fight it (something along those lines).  How bad do you let things get before speaking up?

        In an insane society, the sane man would appear insane

        by TampaCPA on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 09:30:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That's right, (none / 1)

        "the GOP isn't fascist"

        but the veneer of respectability is rather thin.

        "The real distinction is between those who adapt their purposes to reality and those who seek to mold reality in the light of their purposes."

        by British Alcoholic on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 09:50:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Respectability (none / 0)

          Yeah, the varieties of unrespectability aren't limited to Nazis and nothing else.  Besides, these guys are combining various types of incompetence, unrespectability, mendacity, venality, spite and pure hatred that they've probably earned their own singular epithet.  

          The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

          by DHinMI on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 10:01:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Your reasonable argument (none / 1)

        is the most chilling of all. No, they are not Nazi, not fascist but they sure as hell are laying the foundations.

        They may not build that highrise across the street but the foundation is laid for a 20 storey building. What do we do, just wait and see?

        This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

        by Agathena on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 10:50:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Become a high ranking member of the SS. (none / 1)

      nt
  •  Thats a great thoughtprovoking quote (none / 1)

    I'll use it on my father, who is anti-Bush, but not to the extent we are, and so staunchly pro-Israel that he doesn't mind the spying and refusal to negotiate with the PLO.

    Isn't a centrist just someone who doesn't have the balls to be a fanatic? -- Stephen Colbert

    by Muboshgu on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 08:43:37 AM PDT

  •  Gonzales, not Gonzalez (none / 0)

    Otherwise, I can find no fault at all....
    •  yea but (none / 0)

      let's call him Gonzalez because that ends with "lez" and did you know that he's a lesbian?
    •  Thanks (none / 0)

      Fixed.

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 08:48:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  two more, while you're at it (none / 0)

        no cite or link for the avi schlaim quote, and the link to the phillip carter piece is broke.  you may have left out the http:// when entering the url.

        l'audace! l'audace! toujours l'audace!

        by zeke L on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 09:20:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Its not a quote (none / 0)

          but a paraphrase. And I don't have a link to it, its just something I read along time ago and it stuck with me.  Also something that a fellow traveler in the anti-Occupation movement refers to often in his public appearances and who reminded me of it recently in a post to compatriots after the election.

          There's a brief comment here by Schlaim and this is a book I'd recommend.  

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 10:54:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  dreamworld (none / 0)

            whoa - armando has suddenly morphed into a gilas girl.  how bizarre.  or is this partly your writing, agg?

            it's in a blockquote box together with the introductory sentence, so it looks like an excerpt from something.

            and i note that the carter link has been fixed now.  i'm just nitpicking.

            l'audace! l'audace! toujours l'audace!

            by zeke L on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 11:23:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Armando lifted this quote (none / 0)

              from a post I made a couple of days ago, because the quote really impacted him. He kept my name out of it, I'm guessing, because he knows I get a little uncomfortable when attention is drawn to me, especially on the front page, so he kindly left it out as a personal favor I believe.  Because of that, I stepped in to head-off the nit-picking on that particular instance, because in the original I didn't include a link, making it kind of unreasonable to expect Armando to do so.

              Just trying to put the responsibility where it appropriately rests, and to provide some info since I had it and wasn't sure Armando did.

              No transmogrification going on here, promise. (Hope you are a Calvin and Hobbes fan).

              Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

              by a gilas girl on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 11:53:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Also (none / 0)

      the book is called "Death of Outrage," not "The End of Outrage."
  •  Arrogant Bastards. (4.00 / 5)

    How dare they? How dare they do this to our country. At the very least, this administration should be moderating it's radical image. They should, at the very minimum be rounding off the sharp edges of their emipire building insanity. But instead, with the promotion of Rice, the retention of Rumsfeld, and the appointment of Gonzales, they are in effect thumbing their noses at the rest of the world.

    Ad Al Gore said last May: "How dare they drag the good name of the United States of America through the mud
    of Saddam Hussein's torture prison!"

    Did I mention that they are arrogant bastards?

    "I was so easy to defeat, I was so easy to control, I didn't even know there was a war." -9.75, -8.41

    by RonV on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 08:44:16 AM PDT

  •  I found this line funny Armando: (4.00 / 3)

    "Of course, Gonzales is not a Nazi. But he is not different enough."

    Behold! The new threshold for our national officials.  Just have to not be TOO nazi-like ok!!

    heheh

    •  Sort of my point (4.00 / 2)

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 08:50:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And it's a good one (none / 1)

        and needs to brought up every time the bushmachine says "but it was so much worse under Saddam!!!!" (what next, "but the Mongols destroyed Baghdad WORSE!!!"?)

        Come to think of it, the worse-with-saddam line seems to be inoperative nowadays. Better than Zarkawi?

        We have always been at war with Eurasia

        by NotSoFast on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 09:00:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  That is what bothers me the most (none / 1)

      The right justifies torture, etc., b/c the terrorists do worse than that to us. But since when is the terrorists' conduct the threshold we are trying to beat? We are proud to be Americans b/c America is supposed to hold itself to the highest standard of conduct, regardless of what our enemies are doing. This is especially true for something like the war on terror, which we will likely be fighting for years and years to come.

      "Look! I caught another middle-class guy! Here, hold his arms behind his back while I gut-punch him!" - The Onion, on the GOP Bankruptcy Bill

      by michigandemocrat19 on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 08:53:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The killer of Democracy is Apathy (4.00 / 3)

    Armando:

    When you asked me on subjects like voting rights what can be done, the issue you are getting at is apathy. The AG nomination is just yet another symptom of the disease. How can any polity survive if it's citizens (those who have the power to vote and chose it leadership) no longer care?  How can any system survive if the actors in the system don't even understand the processes of the system. You have got Americans who dont even know who is the President of the US right now.  You ask about reform, and now you ask for people to stand up against the new AG nomination. I don't think it will happen until there is a seachange of attitude which would require a new type of leadership on the Democratic side that is no long afraid of its own shadow. Finally, you talked about the need for reform also, and see a great chance for it, I am remembering, in 2006. We will know in 3 or 4 months which of us is correct.

    •  Apathy (none / 0)

      with a heavy dose of cynicism.  The two together are a deadly cocktail.

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 11:01:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Apathy or world weariness (none / 0)

      There are SO many outrages coming from this Bush administration that the effects are blunted by the quantity. Our inability to process the quantity of them diminishes our response.

      And all the while that Iraqi prisoners were being tortured and Iraqi civlians were being killed and US military was being killed by missing ammunition in Iraq the US newspapers were filled with gaymarriage-abortion-CBSdocumentfonts-ScottPeterson-KobeBryant.

      This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

      by Agathena on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 11:26:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Perhaps (none / 0)

        but I'd argue that Americans don't experience enough of the world to suffer from world weariness.  We tend to create more of the situations that give other people cause to be weary.

        Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

        by a gilas girl on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 12:22:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Good point (none / 0)

          I was thinking of the old fashioned term:
          "worldly weary" used to describe a person who
          has given up on a world so bereft of his/her
          ideals of justice and truth etc.

          This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

          by Agathena on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 01:09:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I share the outrage (none / 0)

    and I hope we can get Dems in the Senate to express it.

    But as a question more of tactics than principle:  will this do any good?  And I'm not even talking about the Republican majority in the Senate....

    Much of the American public supports the WoT, and Gonzales was acting here as the legal enabler for BushCo's prosecution of it--the whole tenor of which has clearly been to flip the middle finger at international law, opinion, and institutions that do anything but green-light their pre-determined policies.  And much of the American public seems perfectly happy with that one-fingered salute.  As a tactic to block Gonzales, then, I fear that expressing our outrage at his legal reasoning re: international law isn't going to have much traction.

    I don't mean to suggest we only express outrage when it's useful, and withhold it when it's not.  But is it worth considering the political consequences of this public stance?

    One benefit, tho alas it's going to be longer term, is to advance a critique of the Iraq war--as not only misguided in conception but corrupt and self-defeating in its prosecution--that may over time gain traction, both against the war itself and those who made it.

    •  If we have conviction (none / 1)

      We should always fight, especially when in the minority, otherwsie we are what people despise, politically oportunists that dont stand for anything.

      time to show moral courage and rip this mother fuckers heart out during the confirmation process.

      WTF are we going to lose ? The house or senate ?

      •  HOW!!?? (none / 0)

        Let's get a campaign together.  

        PATRIOT I+II, MCA, FISA CAPITULATION, NOW TORTURE. YOUR COUNTRY IS SLOWLY BEING DISMANTLED. WHAT R U GONNA DO ABOUT IT?

        by maxschell on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 10:56:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  First steps: (none / 0)

          1. Get the media to start publishing the pictures again.  This is absolutely essential.

          2. Get a website up with all the pictures on it.  Start referring people to it and link it to Gonazales.  

          3. Once the website is up, get the letter writing campaigns going to both House and Senate, and to the newspapers.  Again, link it to Gonazales.

          4. Send letters to churches, synagogues and mosques.  Get Bob Edgar from the National Council of Churches involved.  This is a moral issue, and churches should be taking a stand on this in their pulpit.  We should be able to reach every pastor, priest, rabbi, etc... in the United States.  

          What do you think?

          PATRIOT I+II, MCA, FISA CAPITULATION, NOW TORTURE. YOUR COUNTRY IS SLOWLY BEING DISMANTLED. WHAT R U GONNA DO ABOUT IT?

          by maxschell on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 11:00:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  the outrage is useful (none / 1)

      I don't think democrats could possibly block this nomination, but expressing this outrage, in my opinion, is a political winner. How often do Senators get political fallout for vigorously oppossing a Cabinet appointment? On the other hand to not roll over on this --
      a. will show that Democrats are not going to be simply cowed by Bush, despite the November loss
      b. will thus show that Democrats are tough
      c. will help establish the Democrats as an opposition party, and thus an alternative, a new choice, a different possibility, a place for critique, all of which could give us MAJOR traction in 2006 and beyond
      d. by framing it quite simply and powerfully in terms of the torture memos, Democrats can educate the public about this crucial issue, speak to core American values, weaken Gonzales going in as AG, and make it harder for him to repeat similarly terrible legal tactics and choices.

      "We have found the weapons of mass destruction" -- George Bush, May 30, 2003

      by awol on Sat Dec 11, 2004 at 09:12:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Good Stuff (4.00 / 4)

    I am saddened that this torture issue hasnt been a bigger national outrage than it ought to have been.

    I can only imagine how far along an impeachment process we would be now if it had been a Dem that had done all this.

    When a blowjob gets you impeached, but the torture, murder and disappearing of people in violation of the geneva convention gets you a promotion, something is very rotten in the state of Denmark.

    I am more disgusted by the acceptance of these practices by a majority of Americans. One individuals actions leading to it are far less significant that the aquiesence of millions of people. they ought not only to be outraged, but ashamed we have come to this.