Daily Kos

Alabama: the worst place to be gay in Bush's America?

Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 08:45:58 AM PDT


Photo from OUT Magazine.

YES appears to be the answer, according to Out Magazine. Where to begin...first, I highly recommend going out and grabbing up the January issue. I am posting the excerpts here from its web site, but the complete article is only available in the print version. BUY IT.

Anyone speculating about which state is the most homophobic in the nation probably needs to look no further than Alabama. My wife Kate, a native Alabaman, escaped from the nightmare, and even she couldn't believe the depth of the hatred and homophobia exposed by this article, including the heinous statistic that 44% of gay Alabamans are physically beaten and assaulted -- by their own family members. It's truly upsetting, and depressing. You wish the queer community would just get the hell out of there, but as with all stories like this, there are those that still want to stay and fight for their rights. I would consider this an almost insurmountable mountain of intolerance that runs both deep and high -- and all the way to the state house.

Judge Roy Moore, famous for wanting to keep a gigantic slab of the Ten Commandments in the courthouse, is planning to run for governor. He says some frightening things about gays in this story that make you wonder what could happen if he is elected -- and he just may be.

The author of the article, Unsweet Homo Alabama, is Bob Moser. He served as editor of the great progressive local paper here in the Triangle, The Independent Weekly, from 1995 to 2000. He is a senior writer for the Intelligence Report, an investigative magazine published by the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, Ala.

Unsweet Homo Alabama

I came home from this year's summer vacation to find just one message waiting on my office phone. That was a pleasant surprise--until I got the message. "Don't know if you've heard, but we had two more gay men killed while you were gone. Just 10 days apart. The vigil's tonight at the state capitol."

That was no surprise at all. You see, I live in Alabama. It's been three long years since I left 21st-century America--the West Coast, specifically--and moved to a state that remains, in the words of the Reverend Helene Loper, a long-suffering activist, "stubbornly pre-Stonewall."

When I first got here, out and proud and clueless after years of living in places where holding hands in public with your boyfriend doesn't seem like a death sentence, everything surprised me. Because I'd grown up in NASCAR country in North Carolina, I figured that I could handle anything Alabama could dish out. But I wasn't expecting to meet a grand total of just two out gay people in my first three months in Montgomery, Alabama's capital city. I wasn't anticipating how flummoxed folks would be when they met me and discovered I was openly gay. ("Oh, honey," said one new office mate, shaking her head and patting me on the shoulder, "You're going to be fucking miserable.") I wasn't prepared to yank my poor little dog in frantic dashes through my "progressive" neighborhood, leaping over fences and cutting through backyards to avoid SUVs full of teenage boys hollering, "Hey, faggot!" (I have no idea what tipped them off.) And I sure wasn't ready for the flamboyant bodybuilder I met at my Baptist-run gym. He sported the kind of fussed-over hair, poofy muscles, and sibilant drawl that make it impossible to even consider trying to pass for straight. Except that he was. When I asked him to the office Christmas party, the poor fellow agonized for days before announcing, "I'm not ready to be public like that." But I work for a civil rights organization, I protested--the kind of place where people are required to like gay people. "You just don't know what it's like," he said. "You're in Alabama now." I guess so.

Anyplace else in 2004 America, gay people--and even some straight ones--would be shocked, outraged, and bellowing for justice if two gay men had been killed in less than two weeks. In Alabama we just numbly reassemble for another candlelight vigil on the marble steps of the bleached-white state capitol, right near the spot where Gov. George C. Wallace hollered, "Segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever." On particularly awful occasions, like this double-murder summer, as many as 65 of us will show up. The few, the brave, the homo-bamians. We stand here wondering how many more of us are going to get burned like witches, struggling to keep the candle wax from dripping onto our hands and pants, glancing nervously over our shoulders whenever a muffler-free pickup truck goes roaring by on its five-foot tires. You just know they're going to holler something creative like "Faggots burn in hell!" You just hope they're not hanging around waiting when you walk back to your car.

My virgin vigil came just a few months after I'd arrived in town. Despite the grim occasion, I found myself looking forward to it in a strange way--at least I'd get to see some of my fellow homo-bamians in the flesh. Since the vigil was commemorating the third anniversary of Billy Jack Gaither's murder, I figured there'd be quite a crowd. Gaither's slaughter in February 1999 was one of the nastiest hate crimes in recent history. Just up the road in rural Coosa County, the 39-year-old was slashed with a pocketknife, beaten with an ax handle, and burned on a pile of tires by two guys who did the deed because "he was queer."

A dozen people showed up for Gaither's vigil. Slumping away afterward, forlornly chewing the wax off my fingers, I couldn't help wondering, Is there something in the water down here that rendered gay people spineless, speechless, gutless?

A couple of days later I started to catch a clue about why Alabama remains, in the opinion of longtime gay activist Ken Baker, "clearly the nation's most closeted state." The then-chief justice of the Alabama supreme court, Roy Moore, a likely candidate for governor in 2006, chose to celebrate the Gaither anniversary by spitting out the ugliest display of judicial homophobia in decades. Moore, best known for installing a washing machine-size Ten Commandments monument in the entrance to the state's judicial building, tacked a 14-page "special concurrence" onto a decision denying a lesbian mother custody of her children. In it, Alabama's highest judicial officer declared homosexuality "abhorrent, immoral, detestable, a crime against nature." Gay sex, he wrote, is "an act so heinous that it defies one's ability to describe it," an "inherent evil" that "should never be tolerated." And if homo-bamians continued to insist on fornicating? The state might have to use force, Moore wrote, wielding a biblical "power of the sword" to root out this evil once and for all.


Martha Weaver holds a photo of her son Scotty Joe Weaver who was murdered in Pine Grove, Alabama, during the summer of 2004. Photo from OUT Magazine.

"All he didn't do was hand out the rope," says Baker. No need for that; rope is always in plentiful supply for Alabama's homophobes--literally and figuratively. There's the literal rope that bound 18-year-old Scotty Joe Weaver, the first of this summer's victims, to a chair in his trailer in rural Pine Grove, where he was beaten, strangled, stabbed, mutilated, and partially decapitated over a period of several hours. His body was then dumped in the woods and set on fire, just like Gaither's. Then there's the rhetorical rope that led the accused killer of 40-year-old Roderick George, shot in the head while reportedly cruising downtown Montgomery, to matter-of-factly inform police he'd done the deed because George "made inappropriate sexual advances." He probably figured the cops would give him a pat on the back and send him home. Hadn't he done what Alabamians are supposed to do when they're confronted with an "inherent evil" that "should never be tolerated"?

It must have been quite a shock for him to find himself charged with murder. But at least he can rest assured that if a jury convicts him, there will be no hate-crimes enhancements tacked on to his sentence. The state's hate-crimes statute makes no mention of sexual orientation. Which means that when the FBI's hate-crimes stats come out next year, Scotty Joe Weaver and Roderick George will not be counted.


Other residents of Alabama have weighed in on the article in comments at the Out website. Go read them.

What can we do about this? Anything? Help the remaining gay folks in Alabama to fight the good fight? Give up on this Red state and tell gays to get the hell out? I have no idea where to begin. I cannot fathom this level of hatred and bigotry -- gay is the new black. Later in the article, it's stated that because Alabama "lost" the last battle over civil rights, these haters are not going to sit back and let gays gain equality. It's their last cultural stand.

The folks at Equality Alabama, based in Montgomery, clearly need all the help they can get.

=

Moser also wrote a great article comparing life in Alabama with the gay-friendly area of NC in which I live entitled "In the Triangle, gay-bashing wasn't happening to us". You can sample more of his work at the The Independent Weekly in the Bob Moser Archives.

Pam's House Blend

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  •  tips, recommendations? (4.00 / 55)

    Does the South plan to rise again? I'm a native Tar Heel and I don't get the Deep South either.

    Pam's House Blend

    •  Atlanta (3.00 / 2)

      Ok, the South as a whole has its issues.  But there are many cities where the bigotry and hatred doesn't permeate.

      Atlanta has had domestic partnership benefits since 1997.  And a lot of so-called progressive Northern cities have yet to implement such a plan.  And the most recent City Council President is a lesbian.  (She stepped down to run for Congress, but lost to Cynthia McKinney in the primary.)

      The road to hell is paved with Good Intentions.

      by JenAtlanta on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 08:53:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This is so scary, yet so real. (4.00 / 4)

      I live in a red state...South Carolina, and I am openly gay.  I haven't had any real problems, but there are people out there that still think that "beating up queers and niggers" on friday night is the thing to do.  I'll never forget being at a barbeque given by my partners' sister, and her husband had invited some of his work buddies.  Well after alot of beer drinking and eating, near dark, a group of them announced that this is what they were going to go out and do.  This was about 15 years ago...but I left immediately and got sick on the way home.  The thought of people actually doing such a thing and announcing it proudly....made me sick and frightened.  Had it been now, I would have gotten a license # and made a call to the police about what I heard....but 15 years ago, I am sad to say I was intimidated and scared of being gay in this very unfriendly state,and needless to say alot younger!
      Things have improved here over the years, but I really believe it has improved because there are more "out" people.  Somehow, it will have to come to that in Alabama...although I'm not sure how, with the kind of political leadership currently in power.
    •  technical question (none / 0)

      Pam, how do you include a jpg link or scanned file or chart into a comment or diary?  How do you create the link and upload the file?

      Thanks!  Great diary.

      We are not "compassionate conservatives." We are "fighting liberals." And we'll kick your ass.

      by Pachacutec on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 01:13:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Alabama is Pre-Stonewall (4.00 / 5)

    Pre-Stonewall Jackson, that is.

    The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

    by easong on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 08:48:55 AM PDT

  •  Alabama is pre Stone-AGE. (2.60 / 5)

    n/t
  •  A New York Minute (4.00 / 11)

    I'm in New York, safe and sound. And I've got a blue state story that ties in with the blatant freefloating hate found in Alabama.  

    My partner and I were having dinner with her brother, a Republican, in Chelsea (a nice safe gay haven) one night. We'd asked him out to talk to him about why we were so pissed off that Bush was re-elected. When we mentioned that Bush had authorized Rove to stir up hatred against gays and lesbians to get out the vote in key states and across the board he said "aw c'mon".  When I told him that 11 states placed gay marriage on the ballot he grew a bit alarmed. I said, "Jerome, do you realize we couldn't even have this conversation (we were loud) at a restaurant in Alabama"? To which he incredulously replied, "Aw, c'mon, yes we could." To which I say, AW C'MON EVERYBODY

    Please recommend this post. Jerome and others can't believe what they're seeing, hearing and experiencing these days. We're in a culture war, where some people are trying hard to raise the consciousness of folks who just can't see the writing on the wall. The targeting of marginalized groups for votes is scary shit, especially when you're a member of the group in the crosshairs. Ok, gotta have a light moment here, everybody 1-2-3, sing with me "Springtime for Hitler and Germaannnny".  

    Back to the main point: Gays and lesbians are the new blacks. I totally agree. And the Republicans are going to keep slamming us to get re-elected. And though we tried and tried I don't expect Jerome to wake up from his nice upper middle class fog to help me out. So, for now, I plan to donate to the gay org operating in Alabama.

    •  I agree (4.00 / 6)

      This is a heartbreaking story.  I had conversations with some Red State Republican family members this Christmas and their views on Homosexuality were disturbing.

      The most common assertion was that liberals were moral relativists that used flexible morality to justify an unwillingness to draw moral boudries.  As an example they said we are unwilling to say homosexuality is immoral.  

      They went on to claim that they didn't really realize how important morality was until they had kids and that they felt it was important to have moral guidlines so that their kids wouldn't CHOOSE to be gay (because as you know you can catch it--sort of like a disease--if you aren't careful and don't condemn it).

      The only thing we have to fear is fear itself - FDR. Obama Nation. -6.13 -6.15

      by ecostar on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 09:22:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My Two Cents (none / 0)

        I'm sorry to hear you heard such negative, closed reactions and happy you had those conversations. From my pov sexuality is neither moral or immoral. It's fluid at times, as we get older I believe we sometimes become open to exploring desires we may not have had in our twenties, thirties, etc. And sometimes people do a complete about face and live the rest of their lives as heterosexuals, exclusively.

        But sexuality is not immoral; and it's not open to judgement. It's too individual and personal. The most important point I'd like to make is sexuality cannot be taught. Again, it's just too personal, and from my experience it is too positive and fluid to be judged by someone else.

        •  I can sort of agree with them on moral relativity (none / 0)

          I am not a moral relativist myself.  I agree that sexuality is neither moral nor immoral.  I think where morality enters the equation depends on how you treat people in any kind of relationship.  For instance, I believe it is immoral to cheat on a spouse.  But what you choose to do (openly) with your partner is subject to exploration.  I suppose I go with the Pagan axiom (inflict no harm on others).

          The family member I mention, however, didn't seem to make such a connection.

          The only thing we have to fear is fear itself - FDR. Obama Nation. -6.13 -6.15

          by ecostar on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 09:49:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Agreed (none / 0)

            I agree with you. Morality comes into play regarding action or nonaction. I think "cheating" is fair game for discussion, but not sexuality. I think they can teach their children about loyalty, about leaving a relationship rather than cheating on a spouse, etc. As a liberal I sure play loose with morality.... :)
      •  Republicans are moral relativists (none / 0)

        Moral rules apply to others but never to themselves. Go bash fags on Saturday night and have Coors with Mary Cheney after church on Sunday.

        Unlike Republicans, Dems believe there's a difference between right and wrong.

        •  And reward (none / 0)

          Ken Mehlman and David Drier for their loyalty and effectiveness by keeping their mouths shut whenever they go after other men's dicks.

          "What is wrong with you?"--Jon Stewart to Tucker Carlson on "Crossfire."

          by PhillipG on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 11:41:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  another GOP anklegrabber, (none / 0)

            john boehmer in the news again, in terms of the mcdermott story. mr family values. i wonder how the chick is doing who they arranged to marry him when he was suddenly floated as VP material?
          •  You've inspired me. (none / 0)

            Let's face it:  The current Repub regime are liars, hateful, and vile, thanks exclusively to George Bush.  They've given us dozens of issues we can use to attack them, so let's each pick a few that are important to us and work them vigorously.  Your post just helped me make the decision that Mehlman and Dreier will be my first project.  I'll start now.
        •  I pointed that out in several discussions with (none / 0)

          relatives.  I know of Republicans that have no qualms about paying for prostitutes (something most Rep will decry as wrong), cheating on spouses, hurting others for no reason.  They will then level accutions of immorality at liberals.

          The only thing we have to fear is fear itself - FDR. Obama Nation. -6.13 -6.15

          by ecostar on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 11:46:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  You are absolutely right. (4.00 / 4)

      While I was a college student in Alabama on the Veteran's Vocational Rehab Program I was assigned a councilor who was a baptist minister. He confided in me shortly after 9/11 that 9/11 was punishment from god for all the homosexuals in the US.

      To put it bluntly, I find it hard to believe that 9/11 occured because my cousin enjoys sucking dick; but you would not believe how many people in this state believe such trash.  

    •  You Nailed It... (none / 1)

      and it won't get better.  The bad guys learned a lot from this election.  One thing they learned was that anti-gay constitutional amendments get out the vote. Another thing they learned was that anti-gay constitutional amendments peel off some of our base, particularly evangelical African Americans.  So what will they do with these lesson?  Here's what I predict, in state constitutional amendments:

      1. forbidding homosexuals from adopting children;

      2. forbidding homosexuals from teaching in public schools, or any other employment placing them in contact with children;

      3. forbidding homosexual cohabitation in a residence with minor children;

      4. denying joint custody or visitation to openly gay parents.

      All of these can easily be sold as "protecting the children from abomination."  And all of them would produce a GOTV effort similar to the "Save Marriage" efforts in '04.  All of the family-related ones can be easily summarized, much like "Marriage=1 man + 1 woman", as "Family=1 man + 1 woman + 1 child."  It's terrifying, but effective.  Don't wait for it to happen, start preparing responses now.

      Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Two Days per Bottle.

      by dhonig on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 10:27:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  C'mon, it will get better (none / 0)

        If you think everything is going to get worse and Republicans will keep on winning, why do you tell people to come up with responses? Going with your theory, there is no need for responses.

        There is no proof that anti-gay legislation helped Republicans peel off any segment of the black vote. In Alabama, you will not find many blacks who vote for Republicans. The same goes for Mississippi, Georgia, most Southern states. They have hard enough lives that they are not fooled by gay-baiting. They may vote for the legislation but they don't vote for Republicans.

        Many of the things you listed are passed in legislatures and probably not via voters. It's not a given that all of these laws will pass if they were put on the ballot. In California 30 years ago, at the height of Anita Bryant's gay-hating frenzy, the voters rejected an amendment to ban gay teachers.

        The bad guys know that it takes much more than gay-bashing to win this election. Bob Riley is not going to spend all his time gay-bashing because he knows that he will lose his primary to Roy Moore if he gets Republicans so riled up that they turn out in legions to vote for the true anti-gay psychotic (Moore). Many of these proposed laws wouldn't even hold up in Southern courts and they are not as clear to voters as "protect marriage". "Make sure that kids don't live in homes where a gay couple might stay" doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

        Why don't you go look at the totals for Mississippi? Their marriage amendment passed with 86% of the vote. But Kerry won 40% in the state, better than in many states without amendments. If we use your woe-is-us example, then wouldn't Kerry have won about 30% or less in Mississippi? Or 14%?

    •  Make sure he reads the story in Out (4.00 / 2)

      A good thing to bring up the next time you hear a Rethug talk about Iraq: "These people we're dealing with, these kinds of animals behead people."

      Oh, you mean like in Alabama?

  •  What kind of message is this? (4.00 / 15)

    Gay bashing used be all the rage, I thought this country was getting somewhere, but painfully, it was all an illusion.  There is still so much to be done.

    I don't know why all roads lead to gay rights, it seems that at the very least, a country that treats it's homosexual community well, just feels SAFE for all.  The degree I as a heterosexual mom feel safe is relative to the degree that homosexuals can feel safe.  If blacks are safe, then I am reasonably safe, if Jews are safe, and all minorities are, then I can reasonably be assured safety for myself and my children in a general way.  It's more of a barometer for me.  This doesn't mean that I don't care about these groups, only that I think there is more going on here, this is also a campaign of fear against women, and all minorities, and for just saying that this is not a black issue (those in the African-American community) is entirely missing the point.  

    I used to travel to Montreal with the kids when I was a single mom, rather than go to NYC, because I felt safer there traveling alone with the kids. Gays are also treated better there, with more tolerance, and acceptance. Why should I care if gays and lesbians are safe in Alabama, or Montreal, or Chicago, or anywhere?  It tells me that I am safe there also, and so are my kids. It tells me what kind of evil lurks in the heart of the community, if any are at a higher risk of danger and death, then it leads logically to me that violence rules the day, so too against other vulnerable people.

  •  Keep in Mind (4.00 / 5)

    Alabama is the state where the "Christian" Coaltion came out loudly in opposition to tax increases that would prevented massive cuts in health and education programs.

    So in Alabama, taxes that support the common good are unchristian while rank bigotry is moral.

    A boycott of the state might do some good, though there'd be at least a 50/50 chance that the bigot would just gloat about how many fewer "queers" were visiting their purgatory on earth.

    •  And keep in mind... (4.00 / 5)

      ...that Alabama just voted to keep segragation and poll taxes in its Constitution.

      From an article at CNN.com:

      A statewide recount showed that Alabama narrowly voted to keep language in the state constitution supporting segregation and poll taxes, according to unofficial totals released Friday.

      There is nothing natural about the abomination of modern factory farming and its attempt to reduce living, feeling beings to machines. -Stephen Walsh, Ph.D.

      by timerigger on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 11:19:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Anti-christians, not christians (4.00 / 3)

      The followers of the rightwingnut preachers are not christians. They are Antichristians. Their actions and words are so contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ that if Jesus turned up at one of their churches, he'd likely chase the preachers as he did the moneylenders in the temple.

      Jesus would never engange in gay-bashing, terrorists threats against physicians, suppression of science, and would never call for the massacre of people as Jerry Falwell has done.

      Please, stop calling these people christians. They follow not christ, but some sort of Antichrist. So "antichristian" is the proper term, please use it when referring to this scum.

      Don't you think John McCain looks tired?

      by MakeChessNotWar on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 11:55:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Response (none / 0)

        I don't think we should frame this argument as what Jesus would do as that suggests that morality is divined from the Bible.  How then do you deal with the Old Testament passages with regards to homosexuality?

        I have been a Republican all my life and have never been to Alabama (except one weekend in Vestavia for a high school debate tournament).  It really scares you to think about how far behind Alabama is.

        •  Old Testament vs New Testament (3.50 / 2)

          It appears that so-called Christians want it both ways.  Yet the one they claim to follow, Jesus, said he was here to fulfill (put away) the old "law" and bring the new which is LOVE.

          How do you deal with the old testament?  Well, just as with the New Testament you cannot cherry pick which of those "laws" in Leviticus you are going to follow and believe in.  In the very same verses that appear to condemn homosexuals, are also the laws about a man cannot wear cotton and wool together, a man cannot eat shell fish or animals of cloven hoof, etc. So, either you open your arms and accept all of it or you must understand that you cannot accept any of it.

          Then you also must ponder David and his relationship with Johnathan.  Yes David who became King David.  Yes, the very same David of the Christ Lineage.  David says his love for Jonathan is greater than any he could ever have for a woman.  He goes so far as to say that he prefers it or would choose it over any woman.

          If you are an Old Testament believing religion then you are some offshoot of the Jewish faith, for you cannot found your tenants in the Old Testament and claim to be Christ believing when if you read what are presented as Christ's own words that he fulfilled the Jewish Law and brought to all a NEW law.  Love.

          Yes, We know that in the New Testament Paul did not like homosexuals.  He also did not like women and said in the very same verses in Romans that women should be silent.  They should not teach or preach.  That women should not have short hair, but it should be long hair as that is their Glory. (sounds like Paul had some potential closet problems himself)

          Never did the Christ say to go out and KILL anyone, beat them up, torture them, take their inherent dignity from them because YOU perceive them to be evil.  Instead he said judge not that you be not judged.  

          In the old Testament it is reported that "God" said: Vengence is mine.

          If you believe these writings, then you must surely be able to see that they clearly speak against this abominable behavior of so-called Christian followers.

          What possible logic is there in a God that apparently is said to have created us all as His children who then wants you to hate and kill a large number of His/Her children?  If you are a parent, how would you view this with your own children.  Kill the ones that don't seem to fit your views of how they should behave?  I doubt it.  Then how much more would a Divine Creator not condone such actions?

          Just my opinions from a lifetime of study in Religions and philosophies.  There should be nothing in religion that requires you to turn off your brain and blindly follow.  Or one would surely wonder why a Divine Creator gave you a brain but only wanted you to use it some of the time.

  •  Alabama always has been a slave state. (4.00 / 2)

    After the civil war they merely extended slave status to everyone who was poor or in some way different.

    While I was at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, gay students were denied the right to have thier own club.

    The rational was that gay students promote sodomy and sodomy is illegal, and the university will not condone illegal activities.

    This type of discrimination has always angered me. I learned tolerance in the army (of all places), when one of my roomates confided that he was gay. Poor bastard was HIV positive and they would not discharge him.

    •  Promoting Sodomy (4.00 / 5)

      Ever been to a college fraternity party? Sodomy with a sorority sister is generally the stated goal, at least, after enough drink has been consumed.

      The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

      by easong on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 09:59:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Fight back: no justice, no justice of the peace! (none / 0)

    I'm not going to take cheap shots at Alabama. I know at least 3 decent human beings there.  But if this country needs an enema, and it does, Alabama is a good place to start.

    Please fight back. The culture war must be won, and battles are required.

    Until gays and lesbians have equal right, don't allow straight weddings to take place without significant protests. Yes, destroy that "special" day until all the mothers in the state decide that preserving the wedding ceremony is more important than discriminating against gays. Especially target those couples who have publically supported anti-gay discrimination. Disrupt weddings in any non-violent way possible (I'm not sure whether non-violence is allowed in Alabama), and those with computer skills might consider altering some of the publicity, making a few changers in online wedding registries, etc. as further acts of non-violent  civil disobedience.

    Set a deadline of spring 2005. If full rights for gays and lesbians are not implemented by then, make sure no weddings take place without memorable disruptions.

    No justice, no Justice of the Peace!

    Don't you think John McCain looks tired?

    by MakeChessNotWar on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 09:55:59 AM PDT

    •  Great idea (4.00 / 3)

      if your goal is to make gays into pariahs, it's hard to find a more effective tactic than to disrupt peoples' weddings.

      If my wedding had been disrupted by ANY activists, I would have beat them up myself. I'd probably still have voted to welcome gay marriage in Oregon, but I wouldn't have volunteered time for the cause.  

      Neutral people would become homophobes, silent homophobes would become activists, and activist homophobes would use your efforts to rally the forces of darkness.

      Your proposal would take what is to many jerks a mere political issue--and make it personal.

      "...And I woulda got away with it, if it hadn't been for that meddling Kos!" ---attributed to Tom DeLay

      by AdmiralNaismith on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 10:13:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Loved the Slogan (none / 0)

        No Justice, No Justice of the Peace... loved it, loved it. But, please, yes it's Etta James in the background, don't Stop the Weddin'. And Admiral, don't give up the ship! Just had a thought, disrupt the inauguration! Peacefully, albeit.
      •  Who are the pariahs now? (none / 0)

        Why doesn't it make the bigots pariahs when they completely prohibit me from marrying then?
        I think the best idea was to disrupt marriages of those (perhaps public figures?) who publicly oppose other people's right to marry.
        On another note, why do we march in DC and New York? Why not get 100,000 gay people and supporters marching in Alabama? Brr, it's cold here... I'm up for a trip!
        Peace,
        Ryvr

        -- Ryvr
        END THIS WAR NOW

        by Ryvr on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 01:23:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  NT (none / 1)

      Imagine the "religious" right busing in ignorant anti-christians to break up all those beautiful gay marriages in Massachusetts.

      Breaking up marriage ceremonies is a jerk thing to do. Let the heteros have their happy wedding days. This is about bringing gay people up, not dragging everyone down.

      •  I totally agree (4.00 / 2)

        and I'm usually in favor of radical/disruptive action.

        But how easy is it, after the disruption of a straight wedding, to point and say,  "Look!  They hate marriage!  They hate families!"  It would fill their narrative too well.

        Instead, let's go disrupt their divorces.

        "Compassion is an unstable emotion. It needs to be translated into action, or it withers." --Susan Sontag

        by spoooky on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 08:59:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Alabama (3.00 / 3)

    is a hellhole and it always has been. Blacks are still relegated to meaningless jobs and segregation (i can't imagine they even want to be near the yahoo whites but i'm sure they'd like better jobs/education/healthcare/pay).

    Alabama is a disaster for anyone except straight white trash.

    Liberal Streetfighter: Left-wing served al dente.

    by wilfred on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 09:57:42 AM PDT

  •  I went to college... (4.00 / 5)

    ...at UA in Tuscaloosa.  I enjoyed it most of the time (even as a gay man) but learned to avoid the "strip" on weekend nights.  I was about to enter a bar on the strip and was in line behind a straight female friend, she stepped up to have her ID checked and pay cover and was told it was $2.00.  I stepped up and was told that for faggots it was $10.00 and was refused entry.  When my friend tried to get her cover charge back so we could go elsewhere, she was pushed to the ground by someone 3 times her size.

    I had unopened soda cans thrown at me, thankfully by rednecks with very bad aim.  

    I have been hit several times by a good "Christian" woman in her forties at a political rally in 1992.  Her Bush/Quayle sign musthave made contact with the top of my head 5 or 6 times before I asked her if Jesus would approve of her conduct.  She stopped and I wasn't injured.

    I once stood in the grocery line in front of a woman who muttered "faggot" under her breath.  The cashier DID gufaw at my response: "Ya know, you're pretty perceptive.  Maybe Dionne Warwick would let you be one of her psychic friends."

    One gay student was even murdered while I was there.

    I decided to get my yankee ass back to Illinois.  I now live in California but think of the time I spent there and wonder if Alabama is a lost cause to gays.  I don't think blacks have gained complete equality there either.  I wonder if true equality even exists yet in America - Land of the free (provided you are a straight white middle to upper class WASP male).  For blacks in Alabama, things have improved but not enough.  These improvements did not come without incredible courage and effort.  Maybe if the Alabama GLBT community can stick it out, the tide will turn.  I hope so and wish you luck.

    Excellent diary. Have a four!

    -8.88; -8.62 Republicans for Voldemort

    by kaus on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 10:00:13 AM PDT

    •  Just to clarify... (none / 0)

      ...the rally I attended was NOT a Bush/Quayle rally.  It was a rally protesting the use of student funds to have Marilyn Quayle speak without equal time for Bill, Hillary, Al or Tipper.

      The rethugs showed up.  They ALWAYS do.

      -8.88; -8.62 Republicans for Voldemort

      by kaus on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 10:13:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Egans and The Chukker. (none / 0)


       You know what I'm talking about, Kaus.  And Michael's downtown.

       Alas, the Le Chukker's no more.

       At any rate, the gay community's alive and pretty well (speaking as a straight guy, what do I know?) in Birmingham and Huntsville and Tuscaloosa, probably in Mobile, sort of in Montgomery.

       Some barely closeted people in the cities who would not be in, say, NYC or SF, and, yes, in the small towns gay people are heavily closeted, but probably no more than in rural, say, Both Dakotas, Neb, Okl, Tex, Idaho, and, yes, even NY.

       But, again, at least in the cities, rainbow flags and open discussion and affections are no longer eye-openers.  It's assuredly not NYC or SF or Key West or even Atlanta, but it's not "pre Stone Age" either.  Hyperbole doesn't help.

       BenGoshi
      ________________

       

      "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

      by BenGoshi on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 02:48:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Having friends and ex-in laws in Alabama (none / 0)

    I can truthfully say, Alabama is a pretty bad place for anything but bigotry of all types,  hatred, double standards, closed minds, high school and college football, and mobile homes.

    I made every attempt to be gracious, and there are a few wonderful exceptions to the above, but even they know enough not to rail against the tide(or the Tide)in public.

     

    "Liberals feel unworthy of their possessions. Conservatives feel they deserve everything they've stolen." Mort Sahl

    by maggiemae on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 10:00:31 AM PDT

  •  Fucking Alabama (2.00 / 2)

    A while back, some guy here got mad at me for singling out Alabama as the most backward, ignorant, racists state in the Union. He said I was being unfair, and feeding into stereo-types. The guy was living in denial.

    This state voted overwhelmingly to keep segregation in their Constitution for fuck's sake!
    They've got a Chief Justice all but telling the citizens of his state to go out and lynch gays,
    and most people there don't even seem to think the kind of statements he made are a problem.

    While I was never into the whole red state/blue state dichotomy, or takes of blue state succession, I will say that I wish Alabama would get the fuck out and leave the rest of us along.

    I think everyone involved would be better off if Alabama just succeeded right now. That way they can kill gays at their pleasure free of legal repercussion, put the Ten Commandments in the court rooms schools, go back to full segregation, and make the Bible the law of the land. And know one here in the 49 remaining states, where civilization and the rule of law mean something would be poorer with out them.

    •  Lack of Perspective ruling the day (4.00 / 4)

      You mean to say that there are actually 49 states that have no bigotry, or amendments to their constitutions banning gay marriage, or discrimination based on gender/race/age/money, or rotten politicians? Wow! If you know where those states are, let me know and I'll pack up my household today!
      In the meantime, I'll continue to fight the good fight in Alabama (and NC, and GA, and MS, and TN, and SC, and FL, and LA - all states I've lived and worked in since moving from the equally intolerant Midwest 20+ years ago).
      The problem(s) may be more "in your face" in certain states, but don't be fooled into thinking this isn't a nationwide issue.

      Many possibilities are open to you - work a little harder.

      by Rainman on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 10:58:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, I mean (none / 0)

        In those states it's a battle between progress and bigotry, in Alabama its a battle with only one side. Read some of the other comments on here, like the one who says even though there are good people there, they know to keep their mouths shut.

        Seeing Alabama isn't so bad because there's hatred in other states misses the point, from
        everything I've seen in those states it might exist, it might tolerated, or even popular, but
        it has no where near the depth or expanse of Alabama where its nearly universal.

        What ever the second most bigoted state is, Alabama is blow it. From what I'm reading from others here, Alabama is only a few steps above the Afghan Taliban.

    •  Sorry, (none / 0)

      but Mississippi or Olkahoma can give Alabama a run for its money any day of the weak.

      "What is wrong with you?"--Jon Stewart to Tucker Carlson on "Crossfire."

      by PhillipG on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 11:43:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm sure they can (none / 0)

        Mississippi's pretty bad, and while I can't speak for Oklahoma I've heard bad things about Montana -but I don't think any of them have public officials calling for a war against gays.

        There's states that can give Alabama a run for its money, sure, but in the end Alabama will
        win every time.

        •  The hell that is Oklahoma (none / 0)

          Lived there for 28 years. Race hatred is barely concealed there although there are good people there. Just not enough. I knew very few openly gay in Oklahoma. Sometimes I thought I was the only one.

          Have been in California for 16 years. Thank God. It's just easier to live somewhere when being gay is not an issue.

          You can say I cut and run but living there for 28 years and being openly gay for my adult years, I did as much as I could do. I needed to have a good job and good opportunities.

    •  Draft Roy Moore for Presidential Candidate (4.00 / 6)

      Quite seriously. Chief Justice/Gubernatorial Candidate/Celebrity Roy "Ten Commandments" Moore or his ilk would be the perfect divide-and-conquer presidential candidate. The Bushco corporatists talk a good line, and stir up the base, but haven't really followed through, legislatively, to persecute gays and lesbians and remove people's civil and human rights; they've only campaigned about doing so.

      In 1992, the 19% who voted for Ross Perot helped elect Bill Clinton - the only break we'll have had from the Bush Family Evil Empire at, or next to, the top of the ticket in 28 years. Draft Roy Moore -- and fix the voting machines -- and split the wingnut vote against Jeb/Ahnuld '08.  

      Reality - Humanity - Sustainability

      by Em on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 11:46:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  YES. (4.00 / 2)

        anybody who's at all serious about wanting dem/progressive inroads in coming elections had better get to work on separating the two breeds of primates: fundies and repigs. they DON'T naturally go together, particularly when the latter exist parasitically upon the former.

        next time you've gotta talk to a fundie asshole, ask him if he's sick of being used yet by a regime that obviously has no intention of actually banning abortion.

        It's called the american dream because you have to be asleep to believe it. - G. Carlin

        by RabidNation on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 11:58:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm sorry but....the thought of this made me (none / 1)

        LAUGH OUT LOUD! Very innovative! It would really stir the "shit" here at home and I could chuckle instead of boil, when listening to Rush and Company!
        I love it!!!!!!
      •  Don't run Roy! (none / 1)

        Um, wouldn't Roy Moore win? Amerikans would be so happy to make progress from a right wing looney to an ultra ultra right wing looney. And we don't really want that Moore for president, do we? Let's run Michael Moore and write better vote swapping computer programs than they do next time.
        Peace,
        Ryvr

        -- Ryvr
        END THIS WAR NOW

        by Ryvr on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 01:33:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I don't think (none / 0)

      it's OK to just give up on a state like that.  I have lived in Alabama for a few years, and I have many relatives there, many of whom are very open-minded liberal types, who despise the atrocities occuring around them.  To give up on an entire state is to give up on the entire liberal spirit of change and fighting the good fight.  We would think it was ridiculous for MLK to say he wasn't gonna fight in Mississippi because it was so hopeless.  No, you fight where the problems are the worse, and one day the fight will be won.

      "Be true to yourself and you cannot be a traitor to any good cause on earth." -Eugene Debs

      by jimbo on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 01:42:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Bosh (4.00 / 3)

      A while back, some guy here got mad at me for singling out Alabama as the most backward, ignorant, racists state in the Union.

      That wasn't me, but I remember your post and it was what inspired me to actually create an account so I could properly pimp-slap you next time you started spewing your sectional bigotry.

      I was born in the South and have lived there most of my life, with the exception of the past couple of years here in Portland, Oregon, and I will return home to Tennessee as soon as I am able.

      Let me tell you something about the South: liberals are just under half the population there in general, and a bit over half in most urban centers. The bulk of the progress we've made towards egalitarianism has been generated from within, because there's always been a majority of assholes in the North or West like you with a 'fuck the South' attitude. Only occasionally, when we've been able to get a Southern reformer in Washington like LBJ, have we been able to get the liberal resources of the rest of the nation to pitch in. The only branch of the Federal government with an enduring interest in Southern civil rights has been the unelected branch -- the Supreme Court. Evidently, the rest of y'all would rather bitch about ignorant, bigoted Southerners than get off your asses and vote. We lost the war; the Federal government is supreme; and there is therefore no excuse for one section to be left languishing under the rule of bigots unless the other sections tacitly acquiesce.

      Now, in my time in Portland, I've noticed something. This is the single most segregated city I have ever seen in the United States. It's screamingly liberal, to be sure, but the first thought I had when I got here was that this looks like Alabama!. Blacks here are ghettoized, excluded from practically any jobs outside of their designated area, forced out of cheap housing so rich white liberals can move in and 'gentrify' the neighborhood, and used for fairly regular target practice by the police. If cops in Nashville or Atlanta or Memphis killed racial minorities with the frequency and lack of accountability of Portland (or, for that matter, Los Angeles or New York) police, there would be National Guard troops all over the place.

      What I find really disturbing about this head-in-ass knee jerk anti-Southernism is that this is exactly the kind of vicious, self-defeating crap that alienated the South in the 1850's and led to secession. There were, contrary to popular belief, more abolition societies in the South than in the North before the war. We had tons of homegrown liberals -- at least by 19th century standards -- even then. But after a decade of hate speech like yours in newspapers, political rallies, the halls of Congress, and everywhere else, Southern liberals were undercut at home and, frankly, alienated by the endless volumes of Yankee venom on every op-ed page.

      Which brings me back to Portland. This town has some major race and poverty problems, but the overwhelmingly white and comfortably middle-class liberal majority here conveniently chooses to ignore it, and the isolation of blacks and hispanics in their own areas makes it easy to do so. Liberals here don't know what it is to have to fight for their rights. Liberals here don't face endless police harassment or covert beatings or vigilante violence. Southern liberals do. So if you whiny-ass pussies want to throw us to the dogs, so be it. But when the pendulum swings the other way and your Rethuglican 40% becomes your Rethuglican 60%, who are you going to turn to for help?

      WE are either in this TOGETHER, or the whole thing falls apart into a bunch of insular, self-absorbed circle-jerks. And frankly, we already have that in the conservative camp; there's no need to add to it.

      Support Our Troops: Send the Commander-in-Chief to the Front!

      by eodell on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 02:12:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Good points (none / 0)

        Though I'd dispute your argument about the "alienation" of the South in the 19th century (I'd argue it had a lot more to do with the power structure in the South), it's good to point out that we've got troubles right here in River City, so to speak.

        Complain first.  Then act.  But do both.

        Procrastination: Hard work often pays off after time, but laziness always pays off now.

        by Linnaeus on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 02:30:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Nice (none / 0)

        If you were going to take the time to build a file on me, then you should have gotten it
        right.

        Your talking about the south. I'm not talking about the south. I like the south. And I know
        that not everyone in the south is racist, and some are progressive, and some are even liberal. Just like I know there's a lot of racist people in my home state, and there's certain areas of my state that could give the worst part's of the south a run for their money in terms of bigotry.

        But I, and many other comments on this thread have pointed out, none of them, not the rest of the south, not the mid-west or western states, take this kind of perverse pride in the hatred that exists there. In none of the other states do with have clear statistical evidence that these opinions are in fact the opinions of the majority.

        I'm not the one being knee-jerk, your the one that assumes me not liking Alabama means I
        must hate all of the south. No, the rest of the south is a world above Alabama in my eyes.

        The rest of the south isn't talking about burring gay books, isn't voting to uphold segregation, and isn't making a folk hero out of a man who all but called for the lynching of gays.

        I said in my first post on this thread that I'm not one of the people who thinks we should just write of "Jesusland." Though sometimes its hard to remember, I know that the South isn't that different from anywhere else in terms of this kind of thing.

        But Alabama is another story.

        •  Something bad happen to you down here? (none / 0)

          We've been going toe to toe all afternoon on this, and I think most of the time we're talking past each other.
          You say: "In none of the other states do with (sic) have clear statistical evidence that these opinions are in fact the opinions of the majority."
          Do you have some numbers? You've been spewing this stuff all day? Look at the comment I posted above with the link to politicians who have put forth anti-gay legislation. I saw only about ONE from Alabama, the rest were from all over the U.S..
          Hell yeah, I'm taking care of the log in my eye, but I think your splinter is bigger than you think. Save your venom for those "certain areas of my state that could give the worst part's (sic) of the south a run for their money in terms of bigotry."

          Many possibilities are open to you - work a little harder.

          by Rainman on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 02:53:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Missing the point (none / 0)

          The point, when it gets down to it, is this: Liberalism is about liberty for all. Anything short of liberty for all goes by another name: privilege.

          If all I'm doing is trying to make sure that me and mine get ours, then there is a another party for me. They're called the GOP, and I can sign the loyalty oath when I walk into the rally.

          If I care about making sure that everyone gets theirs -- which includes reaching out to people who are poisoned by their own ignorance -- then I can rightly call myself a liberal.

          That's the fundamental difference, IMHO, between the left and the right. If anyone, anywhere is getting the shaft, then it's my problem, too.

          Granted, that's idealistic, but it's also pragmatic. If all the liberals in Alabama pick up and leave, then instead of a conservative majority hobbled by an opposing liberal minority, you have a unanimous conservative mob, unhindered by anything at all.

          One thing is certain -- there are a lot more liberals in Alabama today than there were fifty years ago. That's progress, and it was hard fought. We need to continue -- and finish -- that fight.

          Support Our Troops: Send the Commander-in-Chief to the Front!

          by eodell on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 03:16:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  This is the conundrum. (none / 0)

        There's the southern-flavored, in-your-face racism, where individual Southern whites, for reasons I've never fathomed, will actually like individual Blacks. Then there's the northern-flavored, behind-your-back racism, where the whites are in favor of equality in theory, but won't treat you as human, won't go to your house, etc.  Honestly, how many have folks have visited their African-American "friends" at their home, for instance?

        It's enough to say the hell with all of it.

        I can almost understand the kool-aid drinking on of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.  I said almost.  For once, the heat is off our backs.  For once, whites are obsessing over someone else's sexuality.  For once, someone else is immoral. We cling desperately to Christianity as our shield to protect us, when it's done nothing to protect us. Christ's teachings, OTOH, has done everything to sustain us.

        There has been progress on the human rights front, to be sure. But the racism, homophobia, loss of rights, oil war, etc. makes you wanna holler, and just throw up your hands, to badly paraphrase Marvin. You wonder if your home, which has been and continues to be so inhospitable to you, is worth it.

        "Sir, we've already lost the dock." A Zion Lieutenant to Commander Lock, The Matrix Revolutions

        by AuntiePeachy on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 04:56:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks (none / 0)

        Thanks to you eodell and to rainman and to everyone else who made the arguements I was too pissed to make.  The cumulative effect of the anti-South threads have taken their toll on me and I didn't want to post while I was angry.  
      •  I call BULLSHIT on this (none / 0)

        I have lived in Memphis for 8 years and lived in Portland for close to 5.  Not even close.

        In Memphis, roughly the same size as Portland and with a racial composition of 50/50, I have seen exactly 4 mixed race couples - EVER.  And, two of those involved Yankees.

        In Portland, I might see 4 mixed race couples in a week.

        Portland is racially segregated because there are so few African-Americans.

        I get so tired of Southern enablers like yourself saying that 'things are bad all over.'

        Now, that's the EXACT same attitude that many complicit Southerners had when it came time for MLK.

        Hell, half of the Memphis white population refuses to believe that MLK actually was even shot here in Memphis.

        Furthermore, less than 10% of the Memphis white population has actually even VISITED the National Civil Rights Museum right in downtown....MEMPHIS.

        The institutionalized racism is so ingrained here, it's unbelievable.

        Ole Miss and its REBEL FLAG and the fact that Ole Miss is a 'nostalgic term' for an ELDERLY HOUSE SLAVE.

        The campus life here is attrociously segregated.  Ten times worse than ANYTHING I've ever witnessed at University of Oregon.

        It's time to call a spade a spade.  

    •  Well, some thousands of Alabamians... (none / 0)


      ... several hundred thousand, who are gay, straight, black, white, young, old and live in cities and live in the country are (1) progressive, (2) pro-civil rights, (3) democratic or lefter-than-that (4) voted for Carter, and Mondale, and Dukakis, and Clinton, and Gore, and Kerry, don't appreciate [a] that a coalition of Robber Barons and Fundagellicals now control most of Alabama's government and classrooms, and [b] people like you who are about as bad as the "Freepers" who say "Nuke all the Ayrabs."

        I know, and over the past 20+ years have known, many, many, many, gay people who CHOOSE TO LIVE IN ALABAMA because they LIKE ALABAMA for many reasons.  Straight progressives like me and, I'm sure 100% of gay Alabamians naturally don't like the bigotry that still lives in Alabama.  But they don't just pick up and move, when they can.  No, they stay and live and love and enjoy and in small ways and large ways try to make today a little better than yesterday and tomorrow a little better than today.  We all do, don't we?

        BenGoshi
      _______________
       

      "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

      by BenGoshi on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 03:00:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  this is true (none / 0)

        and people should realize that almost half of the people in most southern states are progressives.  Nevertheless, I have seen you often defend the South and can only agree up to a point.  I am also Southern, of lower class upbringing.  I currently live in the South, and I am also both gay and a non-christian.  There are indeed many good qualities to the South, but they do not outweight the prevailing culture that tolerates and sometimes encourages ignorance and bigotry.  To whatever extent these things exist in other places does not undermine the despicable fascist and bloody history the South has.  State sponsered segregation and silently approved lynchings happened here in my parents lifetime.  You cannot think that drinking from such a poison well for so long can not have a lingering impact and put a dark stain on this region.  We are a special place in the world, that is damned by it's history in a particular and lingering way.  Defend the positive aspects of change that have occurred here if you choose, but the South deserves to be blasted for it's unneccessary failings, whether this is politically advantageous or not.  And finally, yes many people who are AA, Latino, Jewish, or gay choose to remain here and not be driven away from freinds, family, and countryside for which they have affection, but don't assume that means their experience of the South is anything like that of a straight while male, progressive or not.
        •  You see me defend the South (none / 0)

            ...in exactly the way I wrote just above.  I respectfully request you re-read what I wrote.  

           I don't defend the likes of malicious bastards like Roy Moore, Ralph Reed, Trent Lott or the other neo-Kluxers who appeal to the worst of people's emotions for their own megalomaniacal ends.  Neither do I defend the "Red Stateness" of the Deep South.  If you read any of my comments of late re:  educational issues, you would have seen a Southerner lambasting the inequities in a system -- based in part on racism, based in part on greed, based in part on "class consciousness," and based in part on apathy and inertia -- that is, for most part, broken.

           But the worst aspects of Southern Socio-Politics does not equal ALL Southern Culture.  Such stereo-typing and logical fallacies is (or should be) beneath people who come to this web site.

           Oh, and by the way, I don't think all Italians are mobsters, all New Yorkers are rude, all Californians are hippy stoners or "Valley Girls/" all Texans are enanmoured with the Bush Klan, all West Virginians are hillbillies, or all New Jerseyites live one block from a Turnpike exit.

           BenGoshi
          _______________

           

          "We in the gloam, old buddy," he said, "We definitely right in the middle of it." -Larry Brown

          by BenGoshi on Fri Dec 31, 2004 at 05:04:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm sorry (none / 0)

            I didn't mean to in anyway imply you defend the worst of the South.  Nor that you embrace any sort of stereotypes.  What I am saying is that the South does get a lot of criticism, and often it is over the top.  But looking at it's particular history and current backwardness as whole, this is not unexpected nor entirely undeserved.  It is only unfair if people lump everyone in the South or a particular state together in a thoughtless way.  It is not unfair if the criticism is aimed at the prevailing and dominant political and social structure here.  If someone posts an anecdote about, say, how the government of South Carolina sucks, and the prevailing culture there is oppressive, it is NOT always necessary to immediately point out that good folks who vote Democrat and are tolerant live there too, unless it gets out of hand.
  •  Actually, VA is the worst (none / 0)

    Virginia is the only state in the union that still has sodomy laws ON THE BOOKS. In fact, 26 cases are still pending in VA courts (they'll likely be overturned because of Lawrence V. Texas, but STILL...)

    David Albo, a Virginia Delegate, tried to pass a law last year that made "public sodomy" illegal. That means gay people would get jail time for having sex in public while straight people would get small fines.

    This is the same guy who tried to lower the penalty for molesting your own child:

    http://www.protect.org/virginia/vaNews.html

    •  But Does He (none / 0)

      Represent the majority of people in Virginia the way Moore does people in Alabama. I'm guessing no. Maybe there's a lot of people who don't like gays in VA, but my gut feeling is they don't hate them with the kind of destructive, beastly passion as in Alabama.
      •  interesting use of "majority" (none / 0)

        I wish I had a statistic or poll to back me up, but did you know that the Republican Party threatened to kick old Roy Moore out of the GOP for supporting a real Wingnut non-Repug candidate for President in '04?
        Read how piranha-like the Wingnuts can be when one of their own is attacked (and if you believe their statistic that "77 percent of the people of Alabama supported the Chief Justice" then you also have to believe that "77 percent of the people in our country were for Chief Justice Moore." I don't take stock in either number, frankly.
        The voices against Roy Moore might not make it into the news where you are, but it does mean something when even the loathesome Repugs try to distance themselves a little, even if it seems to be just for crossing party lines.

        Many possibilities are open to you - work a little harder.

        by Rainman on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 01:08:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Sodomy Laws (none / 0)

      Yep, VA is the last state to trash these laws. Even Alabama, Texas, and Mississippi are further along. An interesting world map of the worst places to be gay (or maybe just a sodomist) is at

      http://www.sodomylaws.org/

      The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

      by easong on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 10:20:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Virginia Statute (none / 0)

        VA Criminal Code § 18.2-361. Crimes against nature.

        A. If any person carnally knows in any manner any brute animal, or carnally knows any male or female person by the anus or by or with the mouth, or voluntarily submits to such carnal knowledge, he or she shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony, except as provided in subsection B.

        B. Any person who carnally knows by the anus or by or with the mouth his daughter or granddaughter, son or grandson, brother or sister, or father or mother shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony. However, if a parent or grandparent commits any such act with his child or grandchild and such child or grandchild is at least thirteen but less than eighteen years of age at the time of the offense, such parent or grandparent shall be guilty of a     Class 3 felony.

        Comment:  I love the lesser crime status for incestuous sodomy. Really tells you where Virginians have their hearts.

        The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

        by easong on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 10:25:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Are you kidding? (none / 0)

          Sodomy with a teenage relative is a lesser offense than sodomy with a (implicitly) consenting adult?

          Holy. Moly. When was this law written? It's thinking like that that makes me wonder if all humans belong to the same species.

          •  Their State Song is a Fucking Slave Song (none / 0)

            Carry Me back to Old Virginny
             Written by James Bland

            Carry me back to old Virginny,
             There's where the cotton and the corn and tatoes grow,
             There's where the birds warble sweet in the springtime,
             There's where the old darke'ys heart am long'd to go,
             There's where I labored so hard for old massa,
             Day after day in the field of yellow corn,
             No place on earth do I love more sincerely
             Than old Virginny, the state where I was born.

            Carry me back to old Virginny,
             There's where the cotton and the corn and tatoes grow,
             There's where the birds warble sweet in the springtime,
             There's where this old darkey's heart am long'd to go.

            Carry me back to old Virginny,
             There let me live 'till I wither and decay,
             Long by the old Dismal Swamp have I wandered,
             There's where this old darke'ys life will pass away.
             Massa and missis have long gone before me,
             Soon we will meet on that bright and golden shore,
             There we'll be happy and free from all sorrow,
             There's where we'll meet and we'll never part no more.

             

            The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

            by easong on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 10:55:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, the song was written by a slave (none / 0)

              But I don't see how it promotes slavery or racism.
              •  Um... (4.00 / 4)

                There's where the old darke'ys heart am long'd to go...

                I know it's written by a slave, but you wouldn't expect a slave to write an ode to Nat Turner?

                I'm sorry if I'm just a bit sensitive, but I have plenty of revulsion for both Virginia AND Alabama, and I get it honestly: I was born in Virginia, and my parents were born in Alabama.  And while there are things I simply love about the South, the backward and the racist and the hater are just too concentrated, ESPECIALLY in AL.  That isn't to absolve Maryland or California or Wyoming or Iowa or any other state in this country of racism, but on the real: AL just voted to keep segregationist language on the books because they were scared of the increasing the "tax burden." Taxes is just a 21st century term for n****. Who says the wingnuts don't learn new tricks?!?!

                Understand that my mother, at 61 years old, visited a state park for the very first time this summer because she couldn't visit as a child. That makes me sick.  I'm one generation away from American apartheid, and I can never be sure it won't return.

                What's most distressing to me is that there are too many black folks drinking the Kool Aid about our gay brothers and sisters.  I'm not trying to hear about how "Christian" it is to oppose our brothers and sisters their rights.  It's just wrong.  

                My only quibble is the thought upthread about gay being "the new black."  It isn't.  The sad fact that both the (white) gay community and black community often miss is that being a "Christian" won't shield you from racism--never has, never will.  

                This is far from your original point, and I'm sorry.  Just had to get it off my chest.

                "Sir, we've already lost the dock." A Zion Lieutenant to Commander Lock, The Matrix Revolutions

                by AuntiePeachy on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 12:54:33 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I agree with just about everything you said (none / 0)

                  I just don't think the song is really a good example of southern racism. The language you
                  pointed out is not appropriate for polite conversation today, but it was in a song written
                  more then 100 years ago. History shouldn't be abandoned just because it conflicts with our current norms.
                  •  Oh, no-- it shouldn't be forgotten (none / 1)

                    But it shouldn't have ever been a state anthem, either.

                    I'm sure it has a soft-spot with my favorite California Confederate, George Allen, who loves April because it's confederate history month.  (I have to warn you, the link is from the Moonie rag washington times, a paper that I wouldn't line my kitty litter with.)  I'm sure it has a soft spot with the SOB socs (sons of confederate veterans or soldier or whoever the hell).  I think the appropriate place for it is a museum where it can be studied or derided...take your pick.

                    I totally see the song as racist...and worse.  It's Gone With the Wind racism.  The racism that says that Black folks just LOVED picking cotton and singing plantation lullabies.  Yeesh!  It's just offensive to me.

                    As for me, the song wasn't appropriate 100 years ago, and I think everyone knew it...then and now.  But you see we'll tell ourselves anything to keep ourselves deluded and in denial.

                    I just have visceral reaction when I hear that song, when I see the stars and bars.  At the end of the day, it doesn't mean much when there are hate crimes and murder, discrimination and disenfranchisement. But it shows you just how throughly soaked in racism is in the culture.  Just one more reminder of disrespect and disregard.

                    "Sir, we've already lost the dock." A Zion Lieutenant to Commander Lock, The Matrix Revolutions

                    by AuntiePeachy on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 04:17:42 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  backwards (none / 0)

          class 3 is worse than Class 5 or Class 6.

          Still, maximum 5 years time for a little pipe cleaning is pretty harsh.

        •  Virginia Family Values n/t (none / 0)

          It's called the american dream because you have to be asleep to believe it. - G. Carlin

          by RabidNation on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 12:07:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  lot of crazy laws on the books (none / 0)

      There are a lot of crazy laws on the books in lots of states.  In Massachusetts (a very blue state), they just repealed a law banning Native Americans from the city of Boston (it was passed in the 1700s.)  

      Some states just don't get around to repealing laws that are unenforceable due to Supreme Court rulings, etc.  The legislative process differs across states.

      It's another thing when the people of the state vote to uphold this type of law, as did Alabamans with school segregation.  

      •  In Illinois (none / 0)

        Dualing was a Class A Misdemeanor. And Chicago had a city ordience that said "ugly" people could not be seen in public.
      •  Bizarre, unenforced laws (none / 1)

        If I recall right, North Carolina has a law on the books that makes it a crime to have sex of any kind less than three feet above the floor. I can only assume that it was passed to discourage cheap brothels or something, not to prohibit futons!

        Until a recent overhaul of the city statutes, the city of Nashville, TN, was liable for the death of your horse if it collapsed downtown and there wasn't a municipal watering trough within two blocks.

        Obsolete and just plain weird laws linger on the books because no one remembers or cares about them. Illinois or Ohio, I forget which, once had a law declaring the value of pi to be a rational number.

        This is, of course, a far cry from the recent nastiness in Alabama. I don't think anyone here is going to argue that that wasn't just plain old racism rearing its ugly head. Stupid, forgotten laws may linger through inattention, but when they are reaffirmed by popular vote, it's not the law that's stupid, it's the voters.

        Support Our Troops: Send the Commander-in-Chief to the Front!

        by eodell on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 09:37:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Sodomy is defnined as (none / 0)

      both oral and anal sex in most statutes and can be applied to either gay or straight people for obvious reasons.

      So, that particular statute could be used to prosecute both gay and straight people, however - taking from most of what I've read over the years - they are rarely used to prosecute a straight person.

      A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people ... restore their government to it's true principles.

      by maddrailin on Fri Dec 31, 2004 at 03:07:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  NO you are wrong (none / 0)

      the laws in VA only impede on your life as a homosexual if you are into prostitution or anonymous sex