Daily Kos

TANG Typewriter Follies IV: [UPDATED 9/15]

Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 09:30:06 PM PDT

Update [2004-9-15 16:58:12 by Hunter]: There is a new installment of this series here

There have been a number of new events and discoveries since my last post on the merits of the "forgery" case.  First, some updates, before we get to the "big" news, the comments from Killian's secretary.  If you don't care about anything else, skip to that part now.  I won't mind.  For the rest of you, who are interested in following this as a fascinating detective story as well as a political one, read on.


What manner of man are you, that can summon up superscripts without flint or tinder?

For those following the story closely, the right-wing blogs (and Howard Kurtz) have a new patron saint of typography, a Joseph M. Newcomer, Ph.D.  You can see his argument here, if the traffic hasn't brought it down again.  This is the most publicized yet of the attempts to prove the documents are modern Word documents.  It is, unfortunately, also among the poorest.  Originally, this diary installment was going to dwell mainly on the flaws in Newcomer's logic, which are quite stunning, for a Ph.D.   If you are interested in a brief summary of his claims, which were enough to convince Howard Kurtz, you can simply go here.  Unless there is more interest, we can leave it at that.

The other attempts purporting to prove that a 1970 machine could not do this are little better.  Most rely on the blanket assumption that proportional type wasn't possible; some acknowledge proportional type was possible, but not that typeface; some acknowledge both, but claim the spacing is off, and that proves it's Word.  Software engineers, particularly, are coming out of the woodwork claiming to be experts on what typewriters could and couldn't do in the 1970's.

Each of these "expert claims" suffers from exactly the same flaw; they purport to take very precise measurements of the memos in order to "prove" their particular point.  At the same time, they claim that similar precise measurements that contradict their point are merely "distortions" caused by the poor quality of the image.

This is a huge, fundamental error with any analysis.  You simply can't have it both ways.  How can you claim that, for example, the precise spacing between certain letters indicates it is a TrueType font and nothing else -- but that obvious differences in the shape of those letters is merely "distortion"?  How can you claim that you have found the precise font in question, "except for" certain letters of that font?  How can you claim that your very precise measurements of the 'th' prove that it is a modern derivation of the 'th' superscript -- and yet not only dismiss, but completely ignore the obvious wandering baseline of letters within each word?

In short; you can't, unless you are very, very foolish.  Unfortunately, the number of foolish people is legion -- and almost all of them scurry to be quoted by newspapers and television, if they can manage it.  And most of them seem to be associated somehow with the software industry, which seems as a whole to be absolutely ignorant of technological history before the 1980's.  (Thanks, guys, for making all us technology folks look like bucktoothed 20-something geeks with no knowledge of the outside world previous to the introduction of the Nintendo.  Yay, computers!)

In other news:

  • We learned that proportional type machines were indeed actively used by the military during the period in question: here is a 1970 document from the 101st Airborne that is clearly proportionally spaced.

  • We learned that IBM Executive typewriters did indeed have removable, replaceable, customizable typebars, as an IBM employee previously attested.  He also attested that, for large customers, these machines were frequently custom-ordered with the particular typeface and glyphs that the customer desired.

So, were they created in Word?

Based on the evidence available to us, as opposed to CBS and USA Today, it is simply impossible for us to tell either way, but after careful examinations of the memos, I myself am highly dubious that this output is from Word.  The things that are similar, like the tabstops and margins, are similar because they are long-held standards of typography or of the particular typeface family in question, Times New Roman.  The things that are different, like the wandering baselines and occasional instances of noticably slanted text (e.g., the letterhead) are clearly not the work of Word.  The wandering baselines, especially, cannot be reasonably explained through "distortion" of the document, whether by copier or fax; it is difficult to imagine a distortion that would move single letters vertically up or down by such significant amounts, while leaving letters a few pixels away untouched.  So count me as still leaning strongly towards the opinion that these are, indeed, typewritten documents.

The precise origin, we still don't know.  This blog has actual output from an IBM Composer, but made absolutely no attempt to adjust the settings of that Composer to ones that would mimic the linespacing and space-bar settings found on the memo.  An inspection of the font of the Composer shows it to be very similar, nearly identical, to the font of the memos, except the proportions of the uppercase M and W, which are wider in the memo than on the sample Composer font.  That would, upon my own best analysis, tend to rule out the Composer.

On the other hand, this example of the output of an IBM Executive shows capital M's that do indeed match extremely well.  What does that mean?  Anything?  Nothing?

Now, perhaps I am wrong; perhaps these are created in Word, snipped apart to create crooked letterhead, adjusted in photoshop or by another mechanism to recreate the wandering baselines.  But I have yet to see any evidence of that that, objectively, can be taken as definitive.

Killian's secretary, Marian Carr Knox

Events in the news have overtaken our scholarly attempts to find the origin of these documents, however.  As reported in the Dallas Morning News, via another dKos diarist:


Marian Carr Knox, who worked from 1956 to 1979 at Ellington Air Force Base in Houston, said she prided herself on meticulous typing, and the memos first disclosed by CBS News last week were not her work.

"These are not real," she told The Dallas Morning News after examining copies of the disputed memos for the first time. "They're not what I typed, and I would have typed them for him."

...

She said she did not recall typing the memos reported by CBS News, though she said they accurately reflect the viewpoints of Lt. Col. Killian and documents that would have been in the personal file.  Also, she could not say whether the CBS documents corresponded memo for memo with that file.

"The information in here was correct, but it was picked up from the real ones," she said.

That is, to put it mildly, explosive information.  We should take Knox at her word, just as we took CBS at their Word.  That, in turn, leaves us with a gaping question -- who gave these documents to CBS, and later to USA Today?  It was someone CBS described as an "unimpeachable source".

Speculation is centering around a man reported (MSNBC) to be the source of CBS's story, a former TANG officer by the name of Bill Burkett:


 A principal source for CBS's story was Bill Burkett, a disgruntled former Guard officer who lives in Baird, Texas, who says he was present at Guard headquarters in Austin in 1997, when a top aide to the then Governor Bush ordered records sanitized to protect the Boss. Other Guard officials disputed Burkett's account, and the Bush aide involved, Joe Allbaugh, called it "absolute garbage." Burkett may have a motive to make trouble for the powers that be. In 1998, he grew gravely ill on a Guard mission to Panama, causing him to be hospitalized, and he suffered two nervous breakdowns. He unsuccessfully sued for medical expenses.

 Still, in theory, Burkett may have had access to any Guard records that, in a friend's words, "didn't make it to the shredder." Fellow officers say he wasn't a crank, but rather a stickler for proper procedure--a classic whistle-blower type. Burkett was impressive enough to cause CBS producer Mary Mapes to fly to Texas to interview him. "There are only a couple of guys I would trust to be as perfectly honest and upfront as Bill," says Dennis Adams, a former Guard colleague. The White House, through Communications Director Dan Bartlett, called Burkett a "discredited source." Indeed, Bush strategists are convinced--or have convinced themselves--that the issue will backfire on its purveyors.

Regardless of whether it was Mr. Burkett or not, Knox's testimony brings up a very sore, and very relevant past story.  It is objectively true that there are documents missing from Bush's National Guard records, and that these absences have never been explained by the White House.  The documents missing include ones that would be generated for any guardsman in Bush's position, and yet, they are simply gone.  From USA Today, we have an account of the controversy:


As Texas Gov. George W. Bush prepared to run for president in the late 1990s, top-ranking Texas National Guard officers and Bush advisers discussed ways to limit the release of potentially embarrassing details from Bush's military records, a former senior officer of the Texas Guard said Wednesday.

A second former Texas Guard official, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, was told by a participant that commanders and Bush advisers were particularly worried about mentions in the records of arrests of Bush before he joined the National Guard in 1968, the second official said.

 Bill Burkett, then a top adviser to the state Guard commander, said he overheard conversations in which superiors discussed "cleansing" the file of damaging information.

...

Burkett says that the state Guard commander, Maj. Gen. Daniel James III, discussed "cleansing" Bush's military files of embarrassing or incriminating documents in the summer of 1997. At the time, Burkett was a lieutenant colonel and a chief adviser to James. He says he was just outside James' open office door when his boss discussed the records on a speakerphone with Joe Allbaugh, who was then Gov. Bush's chief of staff.

 In Burkett's account, Allbaugh told James that Bush's press secretary, Karen Hughes, was preparing a biography and needed information on Bush's military service.

In an interview, Burkett said he recalled Allbaugh's words: "We certainly don't want anything that is embarrassing in there." Burkett said he immediately told two other officers about the conversation and noted it in a daily journal he kept. The two officers, George Conn and Dennis Adams, confirmed to USA TODAY in 2002 that Burkett told them of the conversation within days.

Soon afterward, there was a series of meetings of top commanders at Texas Guard headquarters at Camp Mabry. Bush's records were carried between the base archives and the headquarters building, according to Burkett and the second Guard official, who was there.

The meetings were confirmed in a 2002 interview by USA TODAY with William Leon, who was the state Guard's freedom-of-information officer in the 1990s. He was involved in discussions about what to release. Leon declined to comment on the substance of the meetings except to say, "We were making sure we released it properly and made sure we did it in a timely manner."

 Contacted at home Wednesday night, he refused to talk to a reporter. He said: "Don't ever call me again at home. I'll call your publisher and sue you."

...

Allbaugh, James and the White House denied Burkett's story. As president, Bush has since elevated James to be director of the Air National Guard for the entire country.

In an interview that aired Sunday on NBC's Meet the Press, Bush said he fulfilled his Guard commitment and offered to make his records public. Host Tim Russert asked, "Would you authorize the release of everything to settle this?" Bush replied, "Yes, absolutely."

Since then, White House officials have released only documents concerning whether Bush fulfilled his service obligations. White House statements have not addressed the release of any papers that could show disciplinary actions, medical exams, legal scrapes and the like.

The fact that there was a "scrubbing" of the record when George W. Bush was governor of Texas has been backed up, then, by multiple sources within the TANG.  To this point, however, it has gotten only passing interest in the press.

The accusations from Burkett and the anonymous second source (Warrant Officer Harvey Gough, perhaps, who also has come forward as a witness to the document purge, saying when asked of the scope of what was removed: "I think quite a bit. I think all his time in Alabama."), as well as the confirmation of that story from Conn, Adams and Leon, are especially troublesome, because destroying those records would be, for Allbaugh and James, a federal crime (Title 18, Section 2071) punishable by fine or imprisonment.

Another interesting side note, when considering the content of the recent memos:  This, from the Guardian, in Febuary of this year:


Reports during the 2000 elections claimed that Bush and his father pulled strings to get him to the top of the queue. That was vehemently denied by the officer who was instrumental in ushering Bush into the ranks of the guard. But Bush's senior officers must have been acutely conscious that they had a scion of America's political elite in their command.

"He did not use political influence. He did all the things required," insists Walter Staudt, a retired National Guard colonel who was Bush's commanding officer. The two men first met during the Christmas holiday of 1967, during Bush's senior year at Yale. A few months later, the young graduate applied for pilot training. "I interviewed all the kids, and if I thought they had promise, sent them through the chain," Staudt says. He retired soon after Bush's induction, and says that he can remember little of that episode now.

Hmm.  Seems Staudt took a liking to the boy, doesn't it?

Conclusions

Adding all this together, we seem to be sitting on the ingredients of an explosive political thriller.  It has been reported through multiple sources that Bush's documents were "scrubbed" of damaging information.  Knox verified the contents of these newest memos, but discounted that she or anyone else typed them for Killian.  So are these memos transcriptions of files scrubbed by Allbaugh and James, kept by an involved party for future use, and released now under Killian's signature?  Are they 1970s-era transcriptions of Killian's notes, made by Killian or others "in addition" to the original memos, and stored separately?  Are they original memos, and is Knox simply unaware of them?

We don't know where the documents came from, at this point, but it seems that finding out where they came from -- and what relationship they have to the "scrubbing" of Bush's National Guard documents previously reported -- is now going to be a very hot topic for the national media.  In short, a fuse has been lit here.

These documents, whether authentic or forged, are leading reporters slowly but surely to the original cast of TANG characters.  And it seems that, because of the politics involved, those players remember Bush and the other players well.  Knox verified the content of the memos:  if she were to review Bush's files, as presented by the White House, could she attest to any documents she wrote that were missing?  And what of Bartlett, Gough, and the others?  Will reporters dig more deeply into determining what was removed from Bush's files, as opposed to simply reporting that something was?

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Permalink | 158 comments

  •  Please recommend. (4.00 / 27)

    I know a lot of people want an update on all this.
    •  The plot thickens... (none / 1)

      "Explosive political thriller".  Exactly right.

      This could be a John Grisham novel. Or an Oliver Stone flick. I imagine a Denzel Washington character behind the scenes, securing these memos from a secret source somewhere within the government, dodging Bush's henchmen and Secret Service agents in his attempt to get this info to the press. Maybe these memos were found in that huge government warehouse at the end of "Raiders of the Lost Ark"?

      But seriously, it's so perplexing. Clearly Killian did write these memos, but somewhere along the line the memos were transcribed. Now we have these questions:

      What happened to the originals?
      Who did the transcribing?
      Did Killian do it before his death?
      If Burkett is the source, did he copy them?
      Why did Burkett wait until now to release them?
      Or did he recently receive them from an insider source?
      Could there be an anti-Bush mole somewhere in the White House who stole these from Bush's full file (which only the White House has) and leaked them to Burkett?

      But most important:

      When is Bush going to respond to questions about his service?  Did he order his record scrubbed, why has he consistently lied about his flying record and his missing months? Will any news organization have the balls to take this on?

      To be continued...

      Old Man McCain.com - the best anti-McCain blog on the web!

      by existenz on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 11:01:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Burkett not the source (none / 0)

        He's already out there publicly with charges of cleansing the records. If he had proff he would have made it then. Or at least when he came under attack for his original charges.

        I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction, of the Constitution. Barbara Jordan

        by Lcohen on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 11:06:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  CBS is standing by the story ... (none / 0)

        USA Today and U.S. News and World Report and the Dallas Morning News all have made important advances. You can e-mail The Washington Post, CNN, other news media and urge them to do some journalism and work to get out the whole story.

        Thrice is he armed who hath his quarrel just. Sherlock Holmes.

        by Carnacki on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 12:45:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  From today's L.A. Times (none / 0)

      In the week since the Sept. 8 report on the newsmagazine "60 Minutes," Rather has twice gone on the air to defend his reporting and the documents, which critics have argued couldn't have been produced by the typewriter technology commonly in use at the time. Tuesday, CBS News executives were preparing yet another rebuttal, expected to be released today. (9/15)

      But the issue doesn't show signs of dying down soon, partly because of the 72-year-old anchor's volatile history with the Bush family and decades-old criticisms that Rather has a liberal bent.

      (What's that make now, 1 liberal media journalist vs 150 con and neocon?)

      and from that same article:

      House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Texas) told reporters Tuesday: "The biggest question I have -- and I think the American people have -- is where did the memos come from? We're dealing with the alleged forgery of government documents to influence a presidential race during war. This isn't politics as usual. It's dangerous. It's possibly criminal. This is really serious stuff."

      Rather said he had no intention of giving in to those pressures. "Say what you want to about me, I keep my word," Rather said. "No, I'm not going to reveal my source."

      "Liberals feel unworthy of their possessions. Conservatives feel they deserve everything they've stolen." Mort Sahl

      by maggiemae on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 09:37:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  DeLay? (none / 1)

        DeLay has the nerve to talk about other people's conduct being possibly criminal?

        The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

        by lysias on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 01:10:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Wouldn't you just love the opportunity (none / 1)

          to say to "How bout we focus on re-districting your lying a$$ right outta office?" Look up the word hypocracy Tom, and know thyself.

          I swear (and I'm not ashamed) it's like talking to the mentally deranged, when you talk to these people. My own brother told me last night he's voting for Bush because our Dad's a Republican. WHAT? Our Dad, also from Texas, raised us on these principals- No lying, no cheating, no stealing! Well, looks like those values place me squarely in a Democratic state of mind, since Bushco came to power.  

          "Liberals feel unworthy of their possessions. Conservatives feel they deserve everything they've stolen." Mort Sahl

          by maggiemae on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 02:13:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  does not matter. (none / 1)

      the rethugs only needed one expert to dispute the documents.  then all their buddies in the big media can hang the tag "controversial or disputed" on the documents essentially killing the story for the uninformed.  

      i blame dan rather and the 60 min staff.  this aint amature hour, youre going against bushco.  have all your t's crossed and all your i's dotted or you will be destroyed.

      •  I'm waiting to here what CBS has to say (none / 1)

        this evening in the way of a rebuttal. The earlier post was to keep those of us who have been tracking the story and the various dailykos diary readers informed of the next step by CBS.
        As Dan Rather intimated on his first CBS Evening News rebuttal "It's the content of the memo's-the allegations" which are the critical issue. Whether the documents given to CBS were salvaged, taped together, re-typed, fax'ed to another source and retyped we may never know. Dan Rather as an old war-horse journalist is not going to reveal his source. Additional, Mr. Rather has looked bully power in the face on more than one occassion in his long career, and I am trusting that he has something which is why he continues to pursue this like a dog on a bone.    

        "Liberals feel unworthy of their possessions. Conservatives feel they deserve everything they've stolen." Mort Sahl

        by maggiemae on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 11:36:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Pseudo Kerning (1.00 / 2)

      Go look at the "from" in the August document.  You can clearly see that the r is tucked under the f.  That is a form of pseudo kerning.  No 1972 typewriter could do that.  The issue is closed.  The documents are 100% forged.
  •  Superb, as usual (none / 0)

    Recommended.
  •  Your first example doc (none / 0)

    Hawkish on impeachment.

    by clyde on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 09:38:40 PM PDT

    •  Sure it is, Clyde... (none / 0)

      Just take a closer look at a lowercase 'i' as compared to one of those uppercase 'O' characters. See how tiny that 'i' is?

      Q: How stupid can 51% of our country be? A: Pretty damned stupid.

      by wunderwood on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 09:42:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I take it back (none / 0)

        It's a subtle effect but I measured in an image editor, and the words that are in all caps (like "COMMANDER") are definitely using more space per character than the lower-case words.  I wonder what they typed that thing on.

        Hawkish on impeachment.

        by clyde on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 09:46:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  But this was overseas (none / 0)

      they didn't get those typewriters...but everyone in the states had them. I remember it well cause our secretary used to hide the balls so we couldn't use the typewriter when she wasn't there.

      Impeach the whole bunch!!!

      by regis on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 10:25:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Proportional Fonts.. sheesh.. (none / 0)

    "The other attempts purporting to prove that a 1970 machine could not do this are little better. Most rely on the blanket assumption that proportional type wasn't possible..."

    I was sure that would die off quickly and it's still kicking around. Finally today I scanned one of my dad's old church newsletters. These newsletters were created on an IBM Selectric typewriter. Just a plain old office typewriter with proportional font.

    Check the link and see for yourself. See magical proportional fonts waaaay back in 1966!

    This does not address superscript and curly apostrophes. But so what?

    Q: How stupid can 51% of our country be? A: Pretty damned stupid.

    by wunderwood on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 09:39:19 PM PDT

    •  I don't see the scan (none / 0)

      And there was no Selectric typewriter (other than the Composer, which I wouldn't call a typewriter) with the escapement for proportional spacing.  Your dad's church probably used an Executive.

      Hawkish on impeachment.

      by clyde on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 09:50:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry, it's past my bedtime.. (none / 0)

        I posted the wrong link, and then "fixed" it by forwarding it to the wrong link again. Sorry. It should be fixed now

        Q: How stupid can 51% of our country be? A: Pretty damned stupid.

        by wunderwood on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 09:56:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  OK, I found the scan (none / 0)

          at http://www.fantasy3d.com/blog/ibm-big.shtml

          I don't think that one is proportional space. The letters in the headline are bigger than the letters in the body text, because they were done with a different typeball.  There were some models of the Selectric that let you switch between 10 and 12 pitch, so my guess is your dad used a 10 pitch ball for the headlines and 12 pitch for the body text.  I used an image editor to put a capital "A" from the headline next to a capital "A" in the body text, and the one from the headline was clearly bigger.

          Hawkish on impeachment.

          by clyde on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 09:58:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Nah, I am sure.. (none / 0)

            ..I remember this pretty clearly.

            I guess I won't be one of those damn so called "experts" and say that I am 100% certain (I make it a rule not to do that anyway), but I would place a very big wager on the fact that my dad's old typewriter had much larger uppercase 'M' (and such) compared to lowercase 'i' and such (and I only bet on sure things).

            Look closely at the lowercase 'i' vs lowercase 'm' on the hirez version. The 'm' is considerably wider than the 'i', IMHO. And I know they didn't change fonts to print the headlines. Look at individual sentences with uppercase letters.

            I played with this typewriter a bunch while waiting for him to finish chatting with church members and finally go home! :-D

            Q: How stupid can 51% of our country be? A: Pretty damned stupid.

            by wunderwood on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 10:06:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's hard to tell (none / 0)

              partly because the scan is a bit blurry (it's a jpeg instead of a png or gif).  But I looked at and counted pixels around the lowercase i and m very carefully and it's not clear to me that they're not the same width.  Obviously the letter i is narrower, but there's more space around it.

              The headline caps are definitely bigger than the body caps.  That's not surprising, since in the picture of the typeballs, there's some that say 10 on them (for 10 chars/inch) and some that say 12 on them (12 chars/inch, i.e. smaller).

              I don't remember ever seeing a Selectric with a split space bar.  The Executive had that feature though.

              Hawkish on impeachment.

              by clyde on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 11:49:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  well... (none / 0)

              if you are saying a regular selectric could do proportional type you are just flat wrong.  The selectrics always advancaed the same length (within the pitch setting selected) no matter what key you typed.  This really isn't in dispute by anyone who has done any research.  THe big deal about the executive was that it could do proportional type.
              •  OK, I will shut up now :) (none / 0)

                I am clearly over my depth and almost as clearly unaware of it. I will wait for the dust to settle on this one. I am operating under the apparently mistaken belief that this machine produced proportional type, but based on the pushback, I am missing something. My apologies for not getting that earlier.

                Q: How stupid can 51% of our country be? A: Pretty damned stupid.

                by wunderwood on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 05:43:13 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Please Don't (none / 0)

                  With due respect to clyde and Damon, I see exactly what you are saying.  

                  Words like 'capital' and 'mighty' clearly show proportional spacing.  No need to zoom in and count the pixels - it is clear from just looking at it.

                  I also know that you are not arguing this is an absolute refutation, but just a challenge to one of the points that has been too often repeated.

                  •  Clear the Way - Expert Here (none / 0)

                    Print publishing is my bailiwick. The sample offered clearly demonstrates proportional spacing. Size of "m", "n" and "l" vary ... simply superimpose a grid to see.

                    BEYOND EXPERTISE: Don't recall how fancy the SELECTRICs were, though I am sure that one could back-space fractionally (half-spaces?). Really has been quite a while since I'd used one (early 90s). And I don't know that proportional spacing was available on SELECTRIC models in the late 60s/early 70s. IBM executives, iirc from typing class in HS (I was lousy typing student), could optionally p/s. Lotsa wild features on those machines, little doubt the could superscript special characters for ordinal numbers if particular font was installed.

                    The next fantasy: Obama/Dean (please let it be)

                    by wystler on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 02:13:32 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  Well... (none / 0)

      ...that's not actually propotionally spaced.

      I'll show you.  I'm copying in the leftmost three letters of the first several lines of "Your Church and My Church"--

      bud
      hav
      The
      por
      app
      Thi
      adv

      In this post I'm writing now, they'll all be jagged-edged on the right side, with the "Thi" on the second-to-last line being noticably shorter than the others.  But in your father's newsletter they all line up perfectly; you could hold a ruler up to them.

      So, the memos weren't done on a Selectric.  (Then again, really, do we care at this point?)

      We Democrats are deciduous. We fade, lose heart, become torpid, languish, then the sap rises again, and we are passionate. -- Garrison Keillor

      by Evan on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 10:07:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sigh... (none / 0)

        ...well, I had to try. I am going to bed anyway. I promise it's a proportional font and I am pretty sure it was a selectric and not an executive, but this is a distration from real issues. Take one more look at the page. I put a 65 pixel box around a zoomed clip of the word "Christian" (hey it was a church newsletter)... Check out the 'C' and you will believe!

        Or not. :)

        Q: How stupid can 51% of our country be? A: Pretty damned stupid.

        by wunderwood on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 10:21:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  hmmm (none / 0)

        Look the next paragraph.

        mou   lines up with
        offic    just like here...  

        I'm no expert, just an observation.

    •  Intriguing, to say the least. (none / 0)

      The doc you scanned does indeed have proportional spacing -- the easiest way to verify it is to look at the space an 'i' takes up, in between two other letter, vs. the space an 'm' takes up.

      Still, this machine could not have been an Executive -- it didn't have typeballs, it was a normal "typebar" machine.  The Executive did have the dual-spacebar, though.  Are you sure these typeballs came from that machine?

      A Selectric machine, in 1966, with proportional spacing.  We have been told that such a machine didn't exist, and yet, clearly, we see here that it did.  Very, very intriguing.

      •  I want to be clear here ... (none / 0)

        ..start attacking me as a liar. What I am saying is that I am positive my dad had an electric typewriter back in the 60's that was an IBM. I am pretty sure it was a Selectric but it might have been an Executive. Doesn't matter to me, since the model and the brand aren't important.

        What is important to me is that the damn typewriter was doing what I would call proportional fonts, and yet somehow the damn media doesn't know they existed! How can that be?

        I worked for 9 years at a newspaper (The Kansas City Star) and I was in the desktop publishing department, but I was a 'C' programmer, not a typesetter.

        But enough about me. Let's talk about Gerald Lechliter.

        :-D

        Q: How stupid can 51% of our country be? A: Pretty damned stupid.

        by wunderwood on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 03:35:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Nice work (none / 0)

    Hunter takes the lead once again!
  •  Reward? (none / 0)

    Has anybody tried to get that $10,000 reward that was offered for creating a "Killian-like" document on a 1970's typewriter?
    •  its impossible (2.00 / 3)

      Neither the composer nor executive could have done these memos.  We are absolutely positive that the composer could not have done them because its proportional spacing system is far too simple.  All teh letters have to fall into 7 different spacing categories and we have the chart that lays out eactly what the spacing scheme is.  http://www.ibmcomposer.org/images/charspacing.gif

      With that chart we can say exactly what the spacing arrangement would be and compare that to the memos. Here is the spacing of the composer overlaid on the memos.  Even though the lines come out the same length in several cases, the lines come out different lengths in others the breaks between the letters don't match up.  http://users.ev1.net/~ashpenaz/Composer%20over%20memo.png  The spacing within a word is something that is simply not adjustable using the composer.  Look at the top line.  No matter what settings you have and how long you tried, you could not ever get the composer to match these memos.

      We don't have the character width chart for the executive so we cannot eliminate that as a possibility.  But the reason that the composer fails is that it can only do 7 widths.  The executive can only do 5 widths so theoretically it should match up even worse, but we can't rule it out without that width chart.

  •  Question (none / 0)

    Originally, this diary installment was going to dwell mainly on the flaws in Newcomer's logic, which are quite stunning, for a Ph.D.

    Know many Ph.D's? [ducks]

    •  Real PhDs versus fake ones (none / 0)

      I know lots of people with real PhDs.

      There are also people out there who get mail-order PhDs. No joke.

      "The way the loser loses will determine whether the winner wins in November." -- Rahm Emanuel

      by Newsie8200 on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 10:14:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Too Many (none / 1)

        Back in my days as a manager, I had a guy working for me that got a mail order Ph D.  One day he was bragging about how easy it was, the next he was wanting to recommend him for a raise based on his new degree.  

        He later quit when I wouldn't  back him.  He found a company who would.

  •  Dr. Newcomer's Illusion (none / 0)

    I'm no expert, but I found Newcomer's evidence flawed. First go to Newcomer's examples and notice the "f" and "r" overhang:
     linked text

    Then go to the CBS Killian documents:
    linked text                                    

    Enlarge the view to 200%.  I don't see the "f" and "r" overhang that Dr. Newcomer illustrates on his  post. In addition, I agree that the radical irregularities and off baseline letters in the short enlarged memo example don't seem likely to be caused by copying and faxing. I would also have liked to see both examples of "111th" in full. It seems suspicious that he chose to cut off the bottom of one example.

    Now go to Glenn's site to check the flashing overlay here:
    linked text                          

    Maybe there's something wrong with my vision, but it looks to me like the "f" in "from" is backing away from the "r" when it flashes. Then I tried to determine the font size and it looks to me like a #8 font. I can't help wondering what the comparison would look like if the image was expanded to about a 72 font.

    By definition there's going to be significant overlap if Times New Roman is used as the font in both examples.

    There might be an argument here, but I think it's a hoax based on illusions. My partisan lens probably isn't focused quite right.  

    Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

    by JollyBuddah on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 10:37:24 PM PDT

    •  the 111th (none / 0)

      The 111th with the superscripts are very suspicious, because they are much higher in relation to the preceding number than is the default behavior of my version of Word.

      This can be changed, and may have over time from version to version in terms of the default, but the difference between the 111th and 187th superscripts are noticable.  Are we to assume the forger altered this cryptic setting?

      Further, the 187th superscript seems too high for my default behavior, as the superscript should start below the middle portion of the 8 where the circles cross, but in the scanned CBS document it looks above the 8 middle.

      Of course, the document is noisy, but the position of the 111th superscripts are consistently high, and look to be in the same position, which odds would argue against if a mistake in reproduction, especially since one of these 111th superscripts in a header section, and the other in the body section, of different documents.

      It could be Word though, but not with default settings, if only for the fact that there are no superscripts other than 'th', and 'th' is not always superscripted.  I could imagine a forger just superscripting the 'th', since it might be presumed that such a superscript existed, but why be so sloppy as to not use it consistently in each occurrence in the forged memos?

      Seems shady.

      Gotta go for tonight, but for all I care these may as well be forged, because it's clear the content has been confirmed, and I would consider 3 insider witnesses confirming this as consistent with Killian upon first glance of the documents to be a preponderance of testimony on that matter (no matter if 1 is backtracking).

      free the information

      by freelixir on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 10:47:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Killian was a poor typer, not a non-typer (none / 0)

        It seems like everybody is taking the comments about Killian's typing too literally. Do we know for a fact that Killian absolutely could not type? It seems to me that some of the peculiar features of these memos could be explained by a very poor typer, who wanted to keep the subject a secret, trying to do things that he knew his secretary did as a matter of routine.

        Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

        by JollyBuddah on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 10:57:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  That example is absurd. (none / 1)

      That's a ridiculously small image. Why not just go ahead and make it about 50x50 pixels. I bet they match up perfectly then. Why was it necessary to FURTHER reduce the original crappy document? I can tell you why. Because when you EXPAND that document to LARGER scale instead and try the same "trick" (and I chose that word on purpose), it doesn't work.

      Any halfwit could zoom in on the fonts and see that the baseline for the letters moves all over the place. Recall that at the beginning of this NON-ISSUE firestorm, the Freepers were screaming in suspicious unison that someone couldn't even type proportional fonts back in the sixties? They sure dropped that one fast, eh?

      Now we must endure "brilliant" realizations that, indeed, ALL images look the same if they are sufficiently reduced enough. The MONA LISA looks like Killian's memo when reduced to a single pixel! Let's blame CBS for that too?

      Q: How stupid can 51% of our country be? A: Pretty damned stupid.

      by wunderwood on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 11:25:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Newcomer seems way off just by his superscript (none / 0)

    He shows it in the spotlight, and the superscript is too high.  Indeed, that particular 187th superscript is itself much lower than the other instances of the superscript, which begin near the top of the preceding number.

    I checked it out, and you can change the settings for the point setting of a superscript in Word, by this procedure:


    1. On the Tools menu, click Customize.
    2. In the Customize dialog box, click the Commands tab, and then click Keyboard.
    3. In the Customize Keyboard dialog box, under Categories, select Format.
    4. Under Commands, select Raised for superscript position or Lowered for subscript position.
    5. Change the number in the Raised (or Lowered) box to the desired scripting height (for example, 5 pt).
    6. Click in the blank text box under Press new shortcut key, and then enter a key combination by pressing the keys of your choice simultaneously.
    Click Assign to assign the key to the selected scripting height command.

    So they would have us believe that not only did the Word forgers not use the default settings, but that they alternately turned off and on superscript features, and, in particular, used 2 different settings when actually using superscripts (the predominant one clearly not the Word default of my version, but I can't speak for all versions).

    I do find that hard to believe, along with some other anomalies, typos, and wandering baselines, but since the documents clearly look faxed, there is a lot of noise, so it's hard to tell.

    Otherwise, the default settings for Word XP for 14 point New Times Roman is pretty close to these memos.  So I guess you could go either way, but I'd really like to interview the forger later about their obsessive tweaking with the superscript feature.

    One would not expect a forger to be so inconsistent in passing off a forgery, unless they wanted to get caught.

    Anyhow, that's all about the documents, and we have 3 insider witnesses who have, upon first glance or hearing of the content of the memos, affirmed them, including the commanding officer at the base at the time after Staudt, as reflective of Killian's thoughts and attitudes at the time.

    Now that Hodges is backtracking doesn't seem very reliable, since he initially backtracked with the excuse that the memos were typed, and not handwritten.  But, with the latest disclosure from Knox, the secretary, one imagines that Hodges must have known Killian's memos were typed, if they all were and filed that way.

    So Hodges is close to lying territory here in an effort to cover his tracks, unless I'm misunderstanding his initial backtracking excuse.  As for the son and wife, they never really had any credibility and they have much less now.  How would they know what Killian was doing with memos, more than his personal secretary?  And Killian's son said if his dad was really doing CYA memos, he wouldn't have showed them to anyone, so not only wouldn't secretary Knox know about them, but presumably neither would the son or mom!

    Changing your stories based upon new information is always precarious, as we can see, especially when the end result of the story is always to justify a unchanging truth you're clinging to.

    Further, if as the son claims these were truly CYA memos, then there may be reason to believe that Killian kept shadow copies, and had these typed up by a 3rd party.  But that's all speculation, but not inconsistent with the son's modified statements on Drudge.

    free the information

    by freelixir on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 10:38:04 PM PDT

    •  Killian's secretary (none / 0)

      His secretary's and his family's comments about Killian's typing seem to be taken way too literally. It has not been claimed that he is incapable of typing, only that he was poor at it. I believe his secretary also stated that he did keep a CYA file.

      It seems like a perfectly logical assumption that Killian would type a CYA memo himself instead of having his secretary or other 3rd party do it. That would also explain the format irregularities that the military reg "experts" point out. Since Killian was not accustomed to doing his own typing he could have been making his best effort to duplicate the military reg format for a memo and ended with a flawed result.

      Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

      by JollyBuddah on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 10:45:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Superscripts (none / 1)

      The "th" superscript is higher when it is printed than when you just look at it on your screen.
  •  a bit O/T... (none / 0)

    Apologies in advance if this question was covered elsewhere and I missed it but I was wondering...

    One of the arguments for these documents being forgeries is the fact that as Staudt had retired from the guard a year and a half before he was supposed to have pressured Killian, the memo makes no sense.

    Does anyone know what Staudt WAS doing when the memo was written? Could he have been in a civilian position to pressure Killian, politically speaking?

    www.epluribusmedia.org

    by kiw on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 10:39:12 PM PDT

    •  you never just drop out of the ol' boys club (3.50 / 2)

      Especially if you're a general.  You retire in order to collect your pension, and be with your family more, and perhaps pursue some private adventures more thoroughly, but it's not like a guy that connected, and seemingly that popular, just suddently drops out of sight, especially as Vietnam is winding down.

      He's still a player, and can pull strings and wielf influence.  It makes sense because he's apparently the guy who assured Bush got in the first place.  I see no reason why he wouldn't keep shepherding Bush further along the line if he liked him.

      free the information

      by freelixir on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 11:59:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Strings? (1.00 / 2)

        "He's still a player, and can pull strings and wielf influence."

        What strings?  He'd retired.  No one needs to pay attention to him and he certainly had no power over Killian.

        •  wrong (none / 0)

          If there was an investigation about 'privileged sons' getting in, everyone's ass and pensions were on the line.

          Staudt doesn't just retire and suddenly disappear.  He can lean on Hodges, though he doesn't have pull on Hodges.  And I think that's pretty clear.

          free the information

          by freelixir on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 05:28:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Update (none / 1)

    A diary by rimjob points out that the USA Today story also cites another TANG officer who asserts that Killian made notes "like that":


    Another former Texas National Guard officer, Richard Via, also said that the documents were fakes but that their content reflected questions about Bush that were discussed at the time in the hangar at Ellington Air Force Base, where he had a desk next to Killian's.

    Via said he and others he worked with "remember the physical, and him going to Alabama was an issue." He said Killian "made notes and put them in his files about things like that."

    Killian kept the files because "he was trying to cover his ass," Via said. "He was always worried something would come back on him."

    He said Killian's secretary "would type them up, and he'd put it in his desk drawer and lock it."

    It would seem that the last few days, reporters have found numerous "new" witnesses to what went on in the TANG at the time in question.

    •  wow (none / 1)

      That's 4 solid witnesses giving a preponderance of testimony as to the substance of the memos.

      I still count Hodges, since he's clearly backtracking for the sake of Bush, and seems to have held out on the information that memos were regularly typed (instead acting like that was incriminatory).

      free the information

      by freelixir on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 10:49:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This must be the reason Rather has been (none / 1)

        so adamant in his demand that Bush address the allegations contained in the documents. Also, Rather asking for proof of the document forgery if they (the WH) have it. Proof of a forgery could only come from the White House file at this juncture, which would damn them for not releasing ALL documents as previously indicated.  
        Great job Hunter.

        "Liberals feel unworthy of their possessions. Conservatives feel they deserve everything they've stolen." Mort Sahl

        by maggiemae on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 11:38:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Drudge interview even more damning than Dallas (none / 0)

      She typed documents with this information but just not these docs, she says. She says that the pressure on Killian to whitewash Bush was put on by Staudt but it was 1972.  And the whitewash had to do with the flight physical. SO WHERE ARE THE ORIGINALS SHE TYPED?

      Seletions from;
      DRUDGE REPORT  TUE SEP 14, 2004 17:48:35 ET

      TEXAS GUARD SECRETARY SURFACES: SAYS CBS DOCS 'FORGERIES', BUT STANDS BY ACCUSATIONS AGAINST BUSH

      The DRUDGE REPORT has found Lt. Col. Jerry Killian's former secretary who claims that the Texas Air National Guard documents offered by CBS in its 60 MINUTES II report filed by Dan Rather last week are indeed 'forgeries'.

      "I did not type these particular memos. I typed memos like these," Knox told the DRUDGE REPORT from her home in Houston.

      "I typed memos that had this information in them, but I did not type these memos. ...
      But Marion Carr Knox stands by the accusations contained in the allegedly fraudulent documents* that Bush skirted a medical and flight exam without suffering institutional repercussions.

      "The information in these memos is correct *-- like Killian's dealing with the problems." ...

      *"It was General Staudt, not then Lt. Colonel Hodges [who succeeded Staudt], that was putting on the pressure to whitewash Bush. For instance he didnt take his flight examination or his physical. And the pilots had to take them by their birthdays........

      Knox speculated as to how she thought the forgeries were created saying, "My guess is that someone in the outfit got hold of the real ones and discussed it with a former Army person."

      Knox worked for the Guard from 1957 until she retired in 1979, and she was Lt. Col. Killian's secretary during the time President Bush served in Texas.

      Knox told the DRUDGE REPORT that she did not vote for Bush in 2000 because he is 'unqualified' for the job, and does not intend to vote for him in 2004, either....

      Asked about reports that Lt. Col. Killian's wife and son saying he didn't type, Knox stated, "He didn't need to. He had me."

      Knox explains that the August 18, 1973 date typed on one of the "forged" documents proves that they were faked. Group Commander Staudt, who allegedly had been putting pressure on Killian, retired in 1972.

      To the best of her recollection, Knox explains that Staudt must have put pressure on Killian in 1972 -- the year he retired.

      Ms. Knox states emphatically that she is not acting for political motives, and has no formal relationship with any political party. She says she just wants to set the record straight.

      link

      http://www.drudgereport.com/bushtang.htm

      -----------------------------------------------------------

      •  she may not know the circumstances in 1973 (none / 0)

        Since she is a secretary, and Killian's at that, she may not have been aware of Killian hearing through Hodges that Staudt was applying pressure.

        According to the memos, Staudt wasn't putting pressure on Killian, but on Hodges, and Killian heard through Harris that Staudt was pushing Grp (likely civilian pressure, being Bush's 'sponsor') to sugercoat Bush's OETR.

        So, it's possible that this memo was not passed through the secretary, and that she never saw it.  How that jives with everything else, I don't know.

        Incidentally, Kurtz's article today about more debunking, this time from the Bush camp rather than bloggers, is that the use of 'Grp' and 'OETR' are way wrong, because they should be 'Gp' and 'OER' instead.  

        This begs the question of how the forger would have known to use these abbreviations in the first place (seemingly the harder data point to acquire), and then somehow actually get them wrong by a character.

        free the information

        by freelixir on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 11:50:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Rove? (none / 1)

          A forger who had access to the original documents could have made just a few changes that could then be shown to be wrong.

          The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

          by lysias on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 05:04:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The thing to note is where those abbreviations are (none / 1)

          In the released documents (and I'm including the two from US News), the only place "Grp" is used is the CYA memo.  In a more official letter announcing the suspension of flight (where the word "billet" shows up), the proper abbreviation is used.

          If, as seems to be the case, the CYA is intended to be a personal note for a personal file, why would the guy writing it necessarily use the abbreviations demanded by military protocol?  For a simple example that everyone might be aware of, take something like the F/A-18E Super Hornet.  If you were writing an official report, that's the terminology you'd use.  But I've met lots of people, including military, who use "F-18" in casual conversation.  Same thing for the Raptor.  It's official designation is F/A-22, but I hardly hear anyone use that instead of "F-22".  The A-10 is officially designated the Thunderbolt II but everyone calls it the Warthog.  The USMC's Harrier is actually the Harrier II, and so on.  If you were writing a personal note, why not use the common term instead of the official one?

          I also see the same thing at work.  We deal with a lot of acronyms, and occasionally the ones tossed around the office aren't official.  We know what they mean, and we'll use them in emails to each other, but when we have to send a document to someone else we use the proper format so they know what we're talking about.

      •  August 18, 1973 is a Saturday. (4.00 / 3)

        It sounds like he went in on his day off, when no one else was around (including his secretary) to type the memo himself.
  •  How about the P.O. Box? (none / 0)

    I was listening to Larry Elder and a caller claimed that the P.O. Box numbers on the memos proved they were fake. According to the caller there is no way Killian would have used an off base P.O. Box as a mailing address.

    It seems to me this should be fairly easy to track down and it seems too elementary not to have been checked.

    Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

    by JollyBuddah on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 10:58:44 PM PDT

    •  Is that.. (none / 0)

      PO Box 12345?  Or something?

      Cause a reference was found on Bush's records.

    •  doubt it (none / 0)

      So far, debunkers have been more concerned with the address used for Bush in memo #2.  Seems a relatively lame debunking, since a guy like Bush would probably be notorious, if he was lazy and undisciplined (and partying), to bother putting in an address change promptly.  If anything, I just wouldn't be surprised that Bush's original address was used for the memo.

      free the information

      by freelixir on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 11:54:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  "P.O. Box 34567" was the correct address (none / 0)

      The 111th F.I.S. (Flight Interceptor Squadron) had that address: P.O. Box 34567, Houston, Texas 77034.  Undisputed military records — including documents George W. Bush signed himself — show that, here (box 16, lower left) and here (address block).

      The fact that this address is being called "fake" and made a basis for forgery accusations shows just how phony the accusations are.

      -- Raven
                Say NO to Torture!       Prosecute War Crimes!

      by Raven on Thu Sep 16, 2004 at 09:54:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  To be perfectly honest now (none / 0)

    I wish CBS and USA Today never ran the memos part of the story. It's not like it was needed to conclude Bush did not fulfill his service completely or to run that story.

    It's clear to me Rather and their team was completely and uttely ill-prepared for the kind of attack machine campaign that is being waged against them by nearly every single other big corporate outlet that exists in this country.  CBS shouldn't have run the story that the memos were authentic without any contrary information.  Such as we are finding out now, that some people are willing to confirm the content is legit, but the memos aren't original or inauthentic or what have you.

    The very fact that we have to keep making diaries (count me as having made one on this particular issue) to rebut all this again and again and again is a testament to how ill-prepared CBS was.  They are standing by their story, but the rest of the meda is firing nuclear ICBMs at their heads and cackling as they rip their competitor.  Some of them were never planning on touching Bush/AWOL/Deserter issue and now CBS has inadvertently handed them reason not to, and bury it through the means of corporate propaganda issued to the American public.

    Online racists and fascists, such as Little Green Nerfballs and Freak Republic, see it as the story that will sink the career of Dan Rather, who they've hated, once and for all.  I've noticed that their sites get linked to on more sites now due to this memo controversy which only gives these creepy individuals more legitimacy.

    USA Today, on the contrary, has been a bit more fair to contrary opinions than CBS has.  They've bothered to find information on the memos contrary to whatever source they originally obtained them from.

    I hope CBS has the persons who fixed them up with the memos sworn that they are accurate.

    Internet, n., A series of tubes invented by Al Gore; not a truck. "I mailed an Internet to my friend."

    by Viktor on Tue Sep 14, 2004 at 11:54:37 PM PDT

    •  Respectfully disagree (none / 0)

      with your conclusion.  Your analysis is fine; CBS did not expect the world to be this bad. Whatever is going on in the media or in the web will have a numbing effect on would-be witnesses ready to refute the current administration.

      However, we must recognize that a simple testimony will never have carried the weight to be a topic of the network news service in this evironment.  Neither should we blame CBS for those witnesses starting to crack, as they are under tremendous pressure.

      The bottom line is CBS did not create this; it has been this way all along since 2001.

      BTW, I praise the White House for their  consistent refusal to comment. No leak. Only less disciplined come forth and claim they are "probably" fakes. They must be feeling as much heat as CBS is and are sticking it out.  If only Democrats have half the guts....

    •  Coincidently enough (none / 0)

      TalkLeft's blogger now has a post up pretty similar to mine.

      Internet, n., A series of tubes invented by Al Gore; not a truck. "I mailed an Internet to my friend."

      by Viktor on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 01:04:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree (none / 0)

      There was a reasonable story there.  However by including the memos Bush's National Guard Record is forever off limits.  Also CBS news now looks like a tool of the Kerry campaign.  

      My fear is that CBS will feel they have to do a big expose on Kerry to even the score between now and November.  Prepare for major appearances by O'Neil and the SBV on CBS as a peace offering to the wingnuts.

      •  Really? (4.00 / 4)

         Because from my end, I keep seeing stories about how people -- people who would know -- keep saying things like "Yep. That's what Killian was talking about. He kept bitchin' about Bush that way. Don't think those are the actual memos, though. But that's pretty much what they said.".

         I'm starting to wonder if possibly the motive for forgery was simply to force the media to dig into the story.

          What's keeping the story alive -- and happens to be the part most damaging to Bush -- is the fact that fake or not, the memos appear to accurately reflect the thoughts of Bush's commander.

          In essence, what's going on is that by investigating whether the memos were a "frame" or not, the media is uncovering solid evidence that Bush was guilty in the first place.

          And it's the "Guilty" bit that will linger in the minds of voters.

        •  Or perhaps it was this way (none / 1)

           I'm starting to wonder if possibly the motive for forgery was simply to force the media to dig into the story.

          That is one possibility.  Another is that not all of his memos were sent to his secretary to be typed.    Some were just stuck in another file and later they were typed by a typist who had a newer machine but who was not as familiar with the handwriting or with Air Guard lingo but since the errors were not important they were signed and put in the file.

  •  As I said the night CBS stood by its story... (3.50 / 2)

    As long as it goes, it definitely hurts Bush because its his crappy Guard service that is getting dragged through the mud. This secretary is fantastic, and heck, people tend to believe old women.

    The stark contrast between Bush's privileged yet craptacular military "service" and that of the brave Americans he sent over to Iraq is drawn ever more clearly as it all falls apart over there, and this sets up an obvious ad campaign.

    Bush's former Harvard professor Yoshi Tsurumi needs to get more interviews as well, like the one he just gave CNN.

    Yoshi Tsurumi, in his first on-camera interview on the subject, told CNN that Bush confided in him during an after-class hallway conversation during the 1973-74 school year.

    "He admitted to me that to avoid the Vietnam draft, he had his dad -- he said 'Dad's friends' -- skip him through the long waiting list to get him into the Texas National Guard," Tsurumi said. "He thought that was a smart thing to do."

    As long as he doesn't have copies of Bush's transcripts from Harvard that are in 12 point Times New Roman, the old Prof should be on '60 Minutes' pretty soon.

  •  I'm pretty sure they're not the originals. (3.00 / 3)

    I've followed this all pretty closely, and while I'd love to believe they're genuine, I simply can't.  The accuracy of the match to MS Word output is simply too high, and (to my knowledge), nobody's been able to produce a convincing replica using equipment from the era.

    What I do believe is that the memos were retyped at some point before they were submitted to CBS.  Whoever did that probably wasn't even considering the lengths that partisans would go to in order to descredit the content of the memos.

    I know that if the tables were reversed, I'd be crying foul too.

    Troll-rate me if you must; I'm just being honest.

    •  The point is if Killian signed it (none / 0)

      everything else is peripheral in the final analysis.
      •  wrong (none / 0)

        No one has the originals.  If a copy is made using modern equipment it is impossible to tell whether a valid signature was actually on the original document or whether it was just pasted in.  Even the CBS handwriting expert admits to this.  All he verified was that the signature was Killians, not that Killian signed the original doc.
        •  No (none / 0)

          Resolving this will have to rely on testimony, from someone other than Killian. Can it establish something beyond refutation? No. Is it worth reporting? Yes, if CBS heard the testimony. Is there anything wrong in believing the testimony. Depends.
    •  Actually... (none / 0)

      ...I agree with you. The fact that they are such an extremely close match with the DEFAULT SETTINGS of MS Word seems like too great a coincidence. What are the odds? But that also seems like far too big a slip-up for someone who then would have had to doctor them to make them look type-written, and then to somehow get them into the hands of CBS. That is, if they really did want them to hold up to public scrutiny.

      Logical answer that I'm sure many here have suspected all along: They were intended to appear valid at first glance, hopefully make it into a news story, and then be exposed as forgeries. The hoped-for effect: Discredit attacks against Bush's National Guard service, and rip Dan Rather's credibility in the process. Now let's see, who would want to do that?

      Not sure that they were planning on 87-year-old Marian Carr Knox coming forward and vouching for the contents of the memos, however :)

      I'd say someone who has copies of the original memos by Killian made these forgeries with the intent that they would be close enough to trick "60 Minutes" but contain a number of minor discrepancies as well as the (eventually) obvious MS Word format, which they could then scream about online after CBS aired the segment.

    •  nothing wrong with that (none / 0)

      If we postulate a crime, like forgery, as with the Niger forgeries we justified going to war with, or these latest memos that seem to purport that Bush got special fortunate son treatment in his efforts to avoid serving in Vietnam, to get a conviction we need to come up with a perpetrator and a motive, along with evidence of a forgery.

      If we take all of these into account, there are still a number of explanations for the memo being retyped, if it was retyped, and not all of them involve forgery at all.

      From the looks of these memos, if they were indeed done in Word (which I doubt), and forgeries, the forger seems to have gone out of his/her way to put inconsistencies in the document and override default Word settings (like superscripting).  I'm not sure why anyone would do that unless they wanted to get caught, but I also question whether Rove or anyone else would be stupid enough to possibly invoke the Law of Unexpected Circumstances and suddenly end up with a whole week of mainstream media focus, on the anniversary of 9/11, on Bush's service, Swift Boat smears shunted aside for the time being, and 4 eyewitnesses confirming from their first impression that these were Killian's actual thoughts, and also the actual circumstances at the time.

      News media can play up the forgeries for tomorrow's papers, and then start running the story based upon the sources, and the fact that Hodges denial is really a non-denial, since he confirmed the substance of the memos, and then later hedged on that and claims the memos are fake.

      But does that mean he is denying the substance of the memos (beyond the 'sugarcoating', which he has outright denied), and how does this play with the other 3 witnesses who have affirmed that the substance of the memos is legitimate and accurate in terms of Killian and the circumstances at the outfit?

      There is a story here, and it's how Hodges jives all of his stories so far with those we've heard from the secretary and also from new witnesses that the USA Today has drummed up.

      free the information

      by freelixir on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 12:36:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It depends on what you mean by original (none / 0)

      What I do believe is that the memos were retyped at some point before they were submitted to CBS.  Whoever did that probably wasn't even considering the lengths that partisans would go to in order to discredit the content of the memos.

      Well perhaps they were retyped long ago and it didn't occur to the typer that it would be an issue as to whether they typed copies of older memos.


      I know that if the tables were reversed, I'd be crying foul too.

      But it is only a foul if the memos have been changed to somehow put Bush in a worse light.  Unless that was done there is no harm and so no foul.

    •  There were such typewriters in 1970 (none / 0)

      "... nobody's been able to produce a convincing replica using equipment from the era."

      See above: "... here is a 1970 document from the 101st Airborne that is clearly proportionally spaced."

      -- Raven
                Say NO to Torture!       Prosecute War Crimes!

      by Raven on Thu Sep 16, 2004 at 10:00:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This story is dead (3.00 / 2)

    Forget it already!

    Whoever gave the forged memos to CBS, plus CBS for not making 100% sure they were genuine, have effectively killed this story.

    It wasn't the evil genius of Rove, it was the firm determination of the SCLM to make sure that Bush's TXANG service is never fully examined, that Bush never has to answer any direct questions about it, and that anyone bringing it up will be labled a crank and a liar.  

    Why else did every other corporate press/media outlet, long before they had any confirmation, leave CBS hanging out on a limb all alone.  Why else was the word "forgery" inserted into every report about "the memos" almost immediately?  Why was every follow-up to CBS's story about the memos and not about Bush's TXANG service?

    What does it take to convince you that this story is dead?  The entire SCLM now has a handy answer for anyone who wants to tell this story:  The memos were forged, there's nothing there.

    We are a few weeks from the permanent institution of a Soviet-style government.  We have had a Soviet-style media for more than four years.

    The only way the real story that is the story of what Bush did or didn't do in the TXANG, will ever get out is if one or more persons of high public visibility, with a military background, had the balls to say screw the media and take it and pound it every goddamned day until somebody started to pay attention.

    But we are the Democrats, and we don't have any such persons.  We are certainly not pussweeds on national security and defense.  But we certainly are the party of pussweeds when it comes to political campaigns.

    Aren't the MFing Democrats the least bit worried about losing this election?

    •  don't worry about it (none / 1)

      For the media, there are still a lot of open questions, and at least 4 witnesses giving testimony to the accuracy of the memos (even if forged, and even if 1, a Bush zealot, is backtracking with a non-denial denial).

      For the Democrats, the fortunate son vibe is alive and well, as 4 witnesses claiming that Bush got special treatment lends extra credence, along with everything else that has come before, and they have never put a spotlight on the actual memos, for the most part (definitely not the commercial).

      And to suggest the media has been reluctant to report on Bush's service is untrue, but they're not going to repeat the same thing everyday.  They need new information, which is why they have so many FOI requests out there, and still are waiting for more Bush discoveries.

      Many Americans already know that Bush didn't really serve during Vietnam like Kerry did, and this is a very visible reminder.  They know this because of prior media coverage of Bush's service.  But you can't expect the media to keep pushing a story without new information.

      I suspect this will be considered new information, especially the kindly elder secretary, and get at least a few more days of coverage.  If so, that will wipe out Swift Boat priming, for the most part, as people are reminded that though there may be controversy about Kerry's service, there is even more with Bush, and Kerry actually risked his life, and volunteered to captain a Swift Boat, which is very dangerous duty.

      Ultimately, it should be meaningless, but Bush and his cronies attacked Kerry's service, so Bush deserves any and everything thrown his way.  He started it.  John Kerry should make clear that Bush and his cronies started it, and release a new commercial clearing the air about his service and then asking Bush if both of them can let Vietnam die.

      This would bring Kerry's favorables back up, and any more Swift Boat activity would likely lead to Bush negatives.  But you have to play fast and hard, swift and smart, if you want to take advantage of the situation, and call Bush out.  Kerry needs to call Bush out.

      free the information

      by freelixir on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 12:56:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  clarification (none / 0)

        John Kerry should make clear that Bush and his cronies started it, and release a new commercial clearing the air about his service and then asking Bush if both of them can let Vietnam die.

        When I say 'clearing the air about his service', I mean about John's own service.  Just explain it, in no vainglorious terms, the 2 tours, the Swift Boat captaincy, his friend(s) dying, his return home, his turn against the war.

        He can say he's doing this personal commercial to set the record straight about his service in the face of the Swift Boat smear and distortions.

        Then, without having ever mentioned Bush's service, he can propose they let sleeping dogs lie in terms of Vietnam, since noone wants to keep fighting that.  But that means both candidates loudly and publicly denounce anyone who further runs ads against the service of either man.

        Kerry does this, and his favorability skyrockets, and Bush's will go down if any more Swift Boat smears pop up in TV ads.  

        Best of all, he can say that when opposing Vietnam, and wanting it to be in the past, Kerry can say the Bush has ended up coming to the same position - that Vietnam was a mistake!

        So what's so bad about a guy who volunteered to go to Vietnam, when he supported the war, fought it under dangerous duty (at least on the Swift Boat), and then came to question the war, came home, and actually did something about it!

        John Kerry - man of action.

        free the information

        by freelixir on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 01:03:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly!!! (none / 1)

      Rather killed the Guard story because now he is either going to eat crow and that will be the news or he will go down swimming against the tide. All this argument and analysis is moot because even if the memos are true it won't sink Bush's campaign, and every minute wasted on this story is like mana in heaven for Karl Rove.

      Partisan views don't count. Swing voters see this: Bush flew fighter jets in the Guard, got an honorable discharge...probably got out of some drills and a physical at the end of his stint...CBS tried to scam him, they were caught, there are a lot of conflicting opinions.

      Those who think that is enough to sink Bush better get used to seeing him around for another 4 years because running on the Guard story is political hara-kiri.

  •  great work, and more believable than CBS, frankly (4.00 / 2)

    but as you say, events have overtaken the documents themselves. How USA Today carries this story will matter (don't forget, they have an independent source, because as pointed out early on, they have two extra documents compared to CBS) since they are so widely known and not 'seen' as biased like Rather (the same freepers likely have a secret Nixon fetish with a shrine and alter built in a secret room).

    Perhaps now we can move on... it matters not what he did 30 some-odd years ago, but it is the key to the 'Fortunate Son' strategery. Those who wish to follow it need to follow this story through. The pattern of others doing Bush's work (clean and dirty) can be linked back to SBVT, the discrediting of Clarke, O'Neill, DiIulio, etc. the vacations while 9/11 was set up, etc..

    Modern day Iraq seems to be taking care of itself regarding staying in the news.

    Y'know, you can't trust this guy Bush. Never could, apparently. Me, I'm voting for a serious man for serious times, John Kerry.

    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

    by DemFromCT on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 05:40:15 AM PDT

  •  My Theories (none / 1)

    #1  Bill Burkett has kept some of the original documents.  He is probably aware that somebody somewhere (perhaps Bush himself) has the completely set of copies in a safe somewhere.  In order to give himself cover and make it seem that the documents are not coming from records he was responsible for destroying, but an independent source, he clumsily modifies slightly and recreates the documents on his own typewriter, and vouches to CBS News for their authenticity.

    #2  August 18, 1973 (the date of the memo) is a Saturday.  It sounds like to me that the Colonel  came into the base when no one (including his secretary) was around and typed his own memo.  The pr