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We just don't get it.  We don't understand that the majority of American people do not support Bush and the Repubs.  We don't seem to get it that they win the elections not because the American people vote  them in, but because they control the voting process.  Everybody (of our ilk) knows Gore won in 2000.  Everyone knows that privately owned Republican companies own most  of the voting machines.  Everyone knows that there is no way to verify that Bush indeed won 270 electoral votes or 51% of the popular vote in November, but we go right along thinking that if we do something different in framing our values, or getting out the vote, or finding the right candidates and issues, or reinventing the Democrat Party, we will win in the next election.  Get real.

The Bush Cabal must be laughing themselves to death.  No matter what we do, if we don't get honest elections, we'll never win again.  That's the only thing this grassroots movement should be focused on, getting the votes counted honestly.  Once that happens, all this other stuff comes into play, but until then we're just fooling ourselves.
Right now we are our own worst enemies, being content to play some kind of philosophy games.  I just finished reading about half the 300 or so comments in Kos' diary asking for 30 word statements of the Democratic position.  It made me sick.  I found not one statement reflecting the need for honest elections; it could probably fall in some cases, under the rubric of freedom or honest and open government, but we're not focusing on the very real problem of who counts the votes.  The longer we continue to stick our heads in the sand about this, the harder it is going to be to do anything about it.
    We had better start to get it soon.

Originally posted to duncanidaho on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 11:30 AM PST.

Poll

Which is most important to you?

70%19 votes
7%2 votes
14%4 votes
3%1 votes
0%0 votes
3%1 votes

| 27 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  You make a valid point..... (none)
    we go right along thinking that if we do something different in framing our values, or getting out the vote, or finding the right candidates and issues, or reinventing the Democrat Party, we will win in the next election.

    But why aren't these things important, too?

  •  It was 50.8%, dammit, not 51%! (4.00)
    Don't round up Chimp's numbers. He doesn't deserve it, for godssake, and it looks better when you write  50.8%.

    Thank you. Now back to this thread....

    I did not receive $ from Ketchum or Department of Ed to write this.

    by Volvo Liberal on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 11:41:37 AM PST

  •  points (none)
    Couple of things:

      In your diary you said 270 EV or 51% of the popular vote.  It's not either/or.  All he needs is 270 EVs to become president.  Your vote does not and has not counted for a long time.

    It's part of the problem.

    •  clarification (none)
      I wasn't meaning it was either or, but I have heard the argument that this election wasn't stolen because Bush got so much of the popular vote.  My argument is that at this point we have no way of knowing who actually got what votes.
      By the way, don't tell me my vote doesn't count.  That's a very sore spot with me here in Idaho.  I hardly ever get to vote for a winning candidate.
      •  oh - (none)
        the election was stolen.  not by bushco, but by the entire structure of government here in america, because there was no viable alternative to the billionaire fatcat washington DC insider types.

        is it really out of the realm of possibility to elect a non-globalist?
        or an atheist?

        sadly, it just isn't possible.  and i was in no way trying to ridicule or find weak points in either your post, or your argument.

        I just think we should at least in theory be developing alternative plans, for when the rest of the world figures out that what we have here is not a democracy, but the biggest ponzi-scheme money laundering operation on the history of the planet.

        my argument isn't that kerry should have won, or bush lost, or kucinich got screwed (though he did), my arument is our current form of capitalist republicism is WHOLLY broken, just as USSR's socialist state was nothing close to what socialism coule have been.

  •  Would you like to know... (none)
    Why I chose "Framing our values?"

    As long as we remain in thrall to the right wing corporate media, we lack the political muscle it will take to reform the elections processes. When we come up with and implement an invincible way to frame our issues -- in such a way that it cannot be subverted, distorted OR ignored by the powers that disseminate information to the masses, we will see most, if not all, of our goals come within reach and eventually be achieved.

    Rage, rage, against the lying of the Right.

    by Maryscott OConnor on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 11:51:02 AM PST

    •  You're right (none)
      A free press and an aware electorate are very necessary for reform.  I'm not opposed to reframing our values by any means.  I just read Don't Think of an Elephant by Lakeoff, and have been trying to think of this election thing in those terms.  It has to do with respect for each individual and for our Constitution.  Based on that frame how could anyone oppose  guaranteeing election integrity?
    •  Therein lies a problem (none)
      If we rely in any way on the "right wing corporate media" to get our message across - however we frame it - then we're sunk. Period.

      The U.S. media, for example, isn't making such a big deal over Rice's latest blockbuster-in-production revealed in her recent testimony, "Outposts of Tyranny":

      To be sure, in our world there remain outposts of tyranny and America stands with oppressed people on every continent . . . in Cuba, and Burma, and North Korea, and Iran, and Belarus, and Zimbabwe.

      Apparently, the Axis of Evil is just soooooooo 2002. No Iraq on that list and I guess saying Iran first would have just been too much of a giveaway. A quick tour through Google news will show you that indeed, the US media isn't paying much attention to this as a story, but the international news is quite a buzz...and I don't just mean the countries that were named.

      That story notwithstanding, my point is that if the media decides it isn't a story then, well, it isn't a story. Didn't we see enough of that in 2004? We need grassroots (and, by extension, netroots) now more than ever. We cannot rely on the media to lead the way for anyone.

      "When smashing monuments, save the pedestals -- they always come in handy."
      - Stanislaw Lem, Unkempt Thoughts

      by mugsimo on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 12:21:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Go netroots (none)
        My complaint is that the netroots aren't paying enough attention to the voting problem, that we're spending our energy in a thousand different directions, and not getting to the heart of the problem.  My belief is without the netroots, we will lose our country.
  •  Should Electoral Votes (none)
    be split or abolished?

    There is an unbreakable bond between the work of peace and the respect for truth.

    by ssolice on Fri Jan 21, 2005 at 11:52:31 AM PST

  •  This wasn't the question... (none)
    The idea was to produce a short summary of Democratic/progressive values, not to comment on the need for clean elections.  If someone were to ask me what the Democratic Party stood for, I hope I can come up with a better answer than "clean elections."

    I'm not saying that ensuring fair elections isn't absolutely critical, but the fact still remains that the country is still divided closely ebnough so that shenanigans can determine the outcome.  Let's come up with a message strong enough to be fraud-proof.

    •  One plank (none)
      This was my short summary of democratic/progressive values for that diary:
      Out of respect for all, we stand for one person, one vote, honestly counted, based on a free press and free education, for an informed citizenery.
      If we are ever to get our country back, I think we have to begin with this one plank--it is our very foundation.
  •  I couldn't agree with you more (none)
    Imagine if Diebold, ES&S, and the other electronic voting machine companies were all owned by Democratics instead of Repubs... the Republicans would've gone absolutely APE SHIT after the 2002 midterm elections, and no way the machines would have been used (as is) for the 2004 election.  
    •  I have to apologize (none)
      for using the word "Diebold" above.  I promised Armando in another diary that I would refrain myself from using it here (at dkos), but I had a temporary lapse of memory.  For all those who don't like seeing it, just pretend it's not there...  (like most Democrats did last year).
  •  biggest problem (none)
    we need clean elections through real, sustained campaign finance reform. how to get this is gonna be hard considering all the money the rich and corporations spend on elections (and inaugurations) in order to get what they want. in pre-post-historical times they used to call that bribery, but now it's just business as usual.

    after that, we need to go for IRV as well as tackle verifiable voting and to stop voter intimidation and the like.

    but other than that, things are just peachy with our democracy.

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