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I have seen a lot of handwringing here and elsewhere on the various proposals for compromise on the nuclear option. Many have been severely critical, and maybe they are right in some instances, of the different compromise proposals being floated about.

I think these folks miss the point. Frist, and when I say Frist I mean Dobson, will not accept ANY compromise. Frist's position is that the filibuster be nuked and that all of Bush's judicial nominees get voted on for confirmation. That is Frist's (Dobson's) "compromise position."

It amazes me that folks are missing that. And I stress it again here now.

Frist (and by Frist I mean Dobson) will not accept ANY compromise. So critiques of the different compromise proposals are interesting, but ultimately irrelevant.

Update [2005-5-18 23:3:5 by Armando]: For those who believe a compromise brokered by "moderates" is possible, read this:

More than a dozen senators trying to head off a showdown over judicial filibusters failed to work out a deal Wednesday to confirm some of President Bush's controversial judicial appointments while rejecting others.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:40 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  pre-emptive strike.... (none)
    too bad the dems don't do a little procedural pre-emptive strike on the thugs.  Any ideas?

    Also for discussion is these people that constantly say "Frist" for the first line of a they have to change it now to "Dobson"

    •  No (4.00)
      They should say "Frist, and by Frist I mean Dobson."

      And when I say Frist I mean Dobson.

      by Armando on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:40:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  exactly.... (none)
        The real power behind Frist is Dobson, and Perkins. Frist needs these people for his presidential run. He NEEDS them. Otherwise, he has no presidential run.
        •  Exactly (none)
          I was talking to a friend tonight who is a local moderate Republican very aggravated with Dobson running the country. He says the religious nuts have taken over his party. But he lives in a huge Republican county but I feel like he is RINO.
          He even thinks Casey has a good shot at beating Santorum because Santorum is not Specter...and Ricky could be hurt in this moderate state. Extremism is very frowned upon in these old time Republican circles. I talk to so many people in my tri county region who are either Democrat or Republican because their greatgrandparents and it becomes a Birthright.

          Anyway, I hear moderates very upset with Frist no matter their party affiliation.

          We choose hope over despair; possibilities over problems, optimism over cynicism.-John Edwards

          by wishingwell on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:32:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  btw (none)
            This RINO friend is a county politician with friends in higher office who is hearing that this Filibuster and this religious right movement is taking its toll ..if not now, It least in rather moderate states...( let us hope)

            We choose hope over despair; possibilities over problems, optimism over cynicism.-John Edwards

            by wishingwell on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:33:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  That's something (3.80)
        I'm not hearing enough of from our people. The press is giving the false equiv argument that the left is making it impossible for Reid to compromise but the truth is the extremist right is the major problem.

        Dobson's name, and Randall Terry for that matter, should be mentioned in every breath. And the one thing that really confuses me is that the quote from Owen or Brown (don't remember which) about there being a higher law than the constitution should be in every statement.

        •  Agree completely (none)
          I made a similar comment on another diary earlier today.  I don't think most average people understand what's driving this conflict.  They need to know.  The Democrats have to make it very clear, because the press sure won't.

          I can tell you none of my Republican neighbors "get it."  They think I'm an extremist for even suggesting that Dobson and his ilk are behind this.  They need to understand the true nature of what is going on.

          •  What I think is important to remember (none)
            is that you can't compromise with Republicans today without giving them everything they want. The party has become so radical, and yet so strong, that it's unwilling to compromise anymore. Most every apparent attempt by Republcans to offer a compromise are nothing more than attempts to mislead Democrats or to offer an unrealistic solution for the goal of convincing the public that Republicans are not being stubborn.

            I firmly believe that it's necessary for politicians to compromise under normal circumstances, but compromises with these Republicans have given us the Iraq War and the Bankruptcy Bill, among other trajedies. Because of this, I'm nervous any time Democrats talk about compromising. A good compromise should result in both sides receiving something of value in return, which is different than preventing one side from running the gamut. Obviously Democrats don't have the numbers to ensure they get the best of most compromises, but that's much different from never receiving anything at all. When has a compromise with these Republicans ever helped Democrats?

            This is why I'm urging my Senator and other Democrats to stop trying to compromise with Republicans. Until Republicans are willing to compromise, you're wasting your time and are probably going to lose the shirt off your back. There's a time to compromise and there's a time when you must stand firm, which is what we must do today.

            A Conservative Government is an organized hypocrisy. --Benjamin Disraeli

            Democrats -- Progress for the Working Class

            by rogun on Wed May 18, 2005 at 10:07:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I agree- no retreat, no surrender. Oops. Sorry. (none)
              Compromise on this is bullshit. If anything we should be hinting at the political hay to be made by the brave Republican Senator who stands up to do the right thing and protect the constitution. Republicans read polls too, and when they see Chimpy's skyrocketing unpopularity they will awaken to the possibilty that showing some independence might actually help them get re-elected.
        •  WTF ! (none)
          What's with pseudomass?
    •  Dobson (4.00)
      But I say that to claim my own surname back from that awfull excuse of a human being!

      When all else fails...panic

      by David in Burbank on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:41:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  They can make the change automatically (none)
      Scoop won't let me post a Javascript link, so see the demo here. You can add the link on the page as a bookmark in most modern browsers and then call it to fix any webpage.

      BTW, to give credit, that code is a modified version of the code for the deleet bookmarklet here.

    •  Pre-emptive strike (none)
      is to let them blow the effer up.  How many times can the Dems pay the playground bully off so they don't get beat up?  No wonder Americans think Dems are weak and unable to defend America - they can't even stand up to Repubs.   Stand up for what is right and let it blow....We need a Gallowway or two in the Dem. party.  
  •  There's also the possibility (3.80)
    that Democrats attend these compromise meetings, so that they have some political cover.  Ben Nelson, for example, in NE is in need of that.  "Hey I tried! Don't blame me! We went to Frist with several options, but he said no!"

    There's political value in making a faux attempt at a compromise or making a real attempt at a compromise with the knowledge that a compromise would never be acceptable to the leadership.

    Please link to & visit my blog: Penndit

    by Newsie8200 on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:40:44 PM PDT

    •  OF course (none)
      you are right.

      And when I say Frist I mean Dobson.

      by Armando on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:42:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thank God He's Right... (none)
        Because if Frist (and by Frist I mean Dobson) was willing to compromise, I'm afraid a handful of our guys would bolt the party and hand over victory to  Frist (and by Frist I mean Dobson), without a fight, and then merrily go back to their go-along-to-get-along ways.

        I'm smarting for a good old fashioned knife-fight. Even if we lose, we win in the long term, IMHO. The Ds need a lot more dislike for the Rs, and a lot less glad-handing and playing golf with them. We need to fight, not compromise, and I'm glad Frist (ahem, Dobson) is forcing us to do so. The Republic will be better off with some healthy acrimony between the parties.

        Iraq is deja vu all over again.

        by chuco35 on Wed May 18, 2005 at 09:55:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  good point (none)
          even if we lose, we win long term. The fact is the conventional wisdom paints a picture of Democrats as being malleable, weak, and standing for "everything and nothing".

          There is no better time than to make a stand and tell the repukes to bring it. Not sure how many opportunities like this will ever come along should the Dems come out looking weak by agreeing to some half-baked compromise.

    •  I'm always curious (none)
      Who falls for that crap?

      Seriously?  Isn't anyone who follows D.C. insider baseball enough to know whether Ben Nelson is attending these meetings (a) smart enough to see through the charade and (b) partisan enough that Nelson's actions won't change their minds?

    •  And Dobson may be (none)
      doing the "no compromise" because he knows he doesn't have the votes. Bravado so that when the vote fails he can play the victim game.

      Dobson may be playing to his base as well as Frist is playing to Dobson. CYA.

      Dobson probably has the votes; but you still need to look at it from every possible perspective.
      These are not smart people. Relentless and determined yes. But not smart. They're fifth grade schoolyard bullies. The Senate Republicans are acting like fourth graders who all want to run for president in 2008.
      Like the fundies, this group of simpering cowards is not smart either.

      •  Fundies (none)
        Love to paint the portrait that they are long suffering victims and the persecuted. They cry woe is me and weep and wail to gain sympathy and thus supporters.

        We choose hope over despair; possibilities over problems, optimism over cynicism.-John Edwards

        by wishingwell on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:36:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I think..., err, I hope (none)
      this is what Sen. Pryor of Arkansas is doing while working with Republicans on Social Security. If his attempts to compromise go awry, then I'll find it very difficult to support him in the future. I can understand the need for Democrats to do this in conservative regions, but at some point they must be held accountable.

      A Conservative Government is an organized hypocrisy. --Benjamin Disraeli

      Democrats -- Progress for the Working Class

      by rogun on Wed May 18, 2005 at 10:15:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Specter Wants Deal and Will Not Go Nuclear! (4.00)
    The following is a quote taken from a recently posted CNN story:

    "What this is really all about is saving face," the Pennsylvania Republican told CNN. "The institution of the Senate and the protection of minority rights is more important than the entire group [of nominees]."

    This is very telling.  I read this to mean, and I think most anyone would read this to mean, that Specter will vote against the nuclear option if it comes to that.

    Assuming we have McCain, Stowe, Collins, Chafee and Specter (and we don't lose Nelson), this means we need one more Rethug to kill the nuclear option.

    This is a huge development.

    •  I Agree (none)
      if he means it.

      And when I say Frist I mean Dobson.

      by Armando on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:41:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  worst case scenario if Specter goes with us (none)
        is that he loses his chairmanship and the entire voting population in Pennsylvania will take it out on Man on  oops I mean Santorum.
        •  Seriously (4.00)
          if Specter stops this, his legacy would be assured.

          I do not overstate this I think when I say he will be well remembered in the history books if he stands upon this.

          I will never utter another negative word about him.

          Let us be honest here, the pressure he is under is enormous.

          Time for a Profile in Courage.

          And when I say Frist I mean Dobson.

          by Armando on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:46:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  he will not lose his chair (none)
          Because the preservation of seniority rights is too important to too many power-broker Republicans.  It's his chair, and if reelected in 2010, he moves over to chair Finance.

          "Let's put our heads together/And start a new country up/Our father's father's father tried/Erased the parts he didn't like" - R.E.M., "Cuyahoga"

          by Adam B on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:52:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Can we change (none)
          all references to Santoroum to "Santorum - when I say Santorum, I mean man-on-dog"?

          "America when will we end the human war?" - Allen Ginsberg

          by Teacher Toni on Thu May 19, 2005 at 03:42:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Today (none)
        it sure sounded like he was going to go "nuclear."

        I don't trust him.  Even though he has nothing to lose, he doesn't want to be out there alone after the Senate.

        •  look at his health.... (none)
          do you really think he will serve out his final 5 years?  He could also resign and let Fast Eddie appoint someone to take his spot...another step closer to 51
          •  you don't understand arlen specter (none)
            There is no more tenacious MF in the Senate.  He has survived everything -- lost three straight elections in the 1970s before winning the Senate race; survived Anita Hill; survived two brain tumors, a double bypass, two hernia surgeries and a wayward Philadelphia sidewalk; survived Pat Toomey.  

            Why?  The man believes in two things: amassing power and demonstrating it to others.

            That's why he'll force a compromise.  And that's why the only way he's leaving the Senate is when they drag out his corpse.

            "Let's put our heads together/And start a new country up/Our father's father's father tried/Erased the parts he didn't like" - R.E.M., "Cuyahoga"

            by Adam B on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:01:00 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Specter may have lost some hair (none)
              lately, but I swear his voice was strong. He seems indefatigable. I wouldn't dismiss him either.
              •  Spector strikes me (none)
                as someone who wants to say he "wished he'd   spent more time at the office" when his maker comes to call.  And he may be hearing footsteps.

                I think he wants to preserve the power of the Senate and not cave in to this imperial presidency we've got going here. He will try to move the Senate off its current catastrophic path.

          •  Do not be surprised... (none)
            He's undergoing chemo. That's bound to take a toll. But the fact that he's up and kicking around in the way he is...that's an amazing amount of strength.

            It's going to take him a while to look like he's at fighting strength.

            But wow. As the daughter of a breast cancer patient, I'm impressed with his strength.

        •  yeah..i heard the Repug Senator (none)
          from Indiana on some Sunday morning gabfest talking about how important the filibuster is and they shouldn't get rid of it....however he is going to Nuke it. Pufffffff...What is that assholes name? There are so many assholes running around in the senate these days it is hard to keep their names straight.  

          *We live in a Nation of LAWS* 11th Circuit

          by Chamonix on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:51:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  DICK (none)
            Dick Lugar.  Once reasonably honorable, now a sock puppet, like essentially every other GOP Senator.

            The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. --George Bernard Shaw

            by Categorically Imperative on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:00:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  You mean (none)

            Some thought he wouldn't go nuclear.  I think he will.  He's with the Kool-Aid crowd, unfortunately.

            If you mean Bayh, ????

            what did he say?

          •  it was lugar (none)
            Lugar was on CNN on Sunday night, talking about how important the filibuster is.  He said the following:
            "I'm opposed to trying to eliminate filibusters simply because I think they protect minority rights, whether they're Republicans, Democrats or other people."

            It gave me great hope, I hadn't heard that he then said he was going to vote to eliminate the filibuster.  fuck.

            Can we collectively speculate for a moment on what, specifically, the radical right gang of Frist, Rove, Cheney, et al are threatening Repub senators with to keep them in line?  How much pressure can they possibly put on these Senators who know the nuclear option is so incredibly wrong and damaging, and yet they'll vote for it anyway.  Any thoughts?

    •  Specter will vote for the nuclear option (none)
      He'll work for a compromise and he won't want to vote for the nuke option, but he committed to it when he begged for that chairmanship.  Frist has his vote.
    •  Specter Doesn't Need This Shit (none)
      Honest to God, if I were him I would finish my term and get the hell out. The poor bastard. I wonder what he says off the record. I would love to hear it.

      He seems to me to be an honorable person. A Senator like him, however has no place in BushWorld. in BushWorld black is black and white is white, there are no greys.

      Bull headedness is a virtue in BushWorld, intelligence is for wine-drinking pansies. Don't question, just believe. Sheer power rules the day. If that square peg won't fit, just slam it until it does. Nuance, subtlety, thoughtfulness, diplomacy are all lost to drunken power.

      •  There are some greys... (none)
        ...that would be the spooks.  

        It used to be Black Spy vs. White Spy, but all the various cliques of spies and gangsters and dealers of all ilks have blended into a grey mass.

        Now, you are "useful" to one group or another for awhile, and if you are lucky, when that changes, you stay alive to be "useful" to someone else. If not lucky, they find your car near the bridge.

        Good men through the ages, tryin' to find the sun, still I wonder, still I wonder, who'll stop the rain? -J. Fogarty

        by RichRandal on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:09:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  actually its .... (none)
        black is white and white is black

        these fuckers make Orwell look accurate

      •  Specter's Fate (none)
        Arlen Specter is Old Skool to be sure. Why, if I recall my American History, as a young buck he served as Council for the Warren Commission, back in the day when Democrats and Republicans worked together, arm in arm, in a bi-partisan effort to wash the blood stains out of the street in the dead of night, bamboozle the American people, and protect them from the horrible and ugly truth.  

        Yep, Arlen played by the rules, went to all those rubber chicken dinners in Altoona, played golf with those goddamn greedy lobbyists, and basically paid his dues for 40 odd years as a loyal water carrier for the Military Industrial Complex, only to find himself at the end of the trail, bent over a desk in a back chamber of the Senate by a half bright, power drunk creep like Bill Frist (and by Frist I mean Dobson).

        Is there no justice?

        Seriously, it has to gall the hell out of Specter and his ilk (and I'm not being facetious) to see their Grand Old Party of Wall Street bankers, Rotary Club big shots, Sunday Presbyterians and Country Club types hijacked by a lunatic gang of tongue-speaking, brimstone-belching zealots whose long term political goal seems to have something to do with erecting public stocks in the town square of the New Jerusalem.

        If anything could inspire Specter to grow some spine, this just might be it, but I'm not holding my breath.  

    •  I wouldn't count on Collins (none)
      She will cave. they will promise her help with those military bases, or threaten to take away highway or Medicaid funds. I don't for a second believe she has any principles strong enough to withstand arm-twisting on this.
      •  Collins and Snow (none)
        I wouldn't count on either Snow or Collins.They have made a career out of protecting the bases and shipyards here in Maine. BTW - Did anyone catch the lying on CBS? They said the Nuclear option was named that by the Dems. Fuckers!
    •  Counting chickens before... (none)
      they have hatched if you ask me.

      I don't think that you can count on Snowe and Collins siding with the Dems on this.  The reason why is base closings.  The release of the BRAC was purposely timed--or perhaps this nuke deal was--to give ammo to twist arms.  Maine got hit hard and I'll bet the Rethugs did it on purpose to put the screws to those two moderate Rethugs from Maine.

      I wouldn't count on Lieberman either.  He's a turncoat AND Connecticut got hit by the base closing bug.

      "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." -- "It Can't Happen Here", Sinclair Lewis, 1935.

      by WyldPirate on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:18:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If Arlen votes NO (none)
      It is also probably because at his age and with the cancer, he will retire in 6 years. I am hoping that is a sign he will do what he thinks is right than give in to Frist/Cheney/Bush arm twisting. It is hard to tell...but several Pennsylvanians have been reminding Specter that he consistently gets lot of Independent and Democratic votes or his career would not have lasted this long!

      We choose hope over despair; possibilities over problems, optimism over cynicism.-John Edwards

      by wishingwell on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:38:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not automatically irrelevant (4.00)
    It doesn't have to be up to Frist, depending on the iteration of the compromise.  For example, if a certain number of Republicans agree to vote no on the nuclear option, in exchange for whatever, there's not a lot Frist can do other than twist arms.
    •  Where's that deal? (none)
      Chasing phantoms.

      And when I say Frist I mean Dobson.

      by Armando on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:41:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  where that deal is (none)
        Try this link, which contains a PDF of it.

        Six Republicans pledging not to use the nuclear option takes Frist out of the equation altogether, and that's what this deal would encompass.

        "Let's put our heads together/And start a new country up/Our father's father's father tried/Erased the parts he didn't like" - R.E.M., "Cuyahoga"

        by Adam B on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:48:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Sure (none)
        But your thesis was that a deal is literally impossible, because of the Frist-Dobson liplock.

        On the issue I brought up, there's nothing to be said other than a prediction.  You can point to a news story that says no deal, or to your own gut feeling, and you could be absolutely right, but it remains debatable.

    •  If republicans were willing... (none)
      to decide to vote publicly in opposition to the party line, then we wouldn't have the problems in congress we have right now. There are no mavericks in the republican party. Anybody who votes against the party line on a major issue is pretty much shooting themselves in the foot.  It won't happen.
      •  And as far as Frobson is concerned... (none)
        The Nuclear Option IS the compromise position. Given their druthers, they'd simply vote by majority to expel the entire Dem caucus and replace them with carefully selected wingnuts.  "Be glad I'm letting you LIVE, peasants.  Don't ask for food, water, or air."
  •  I'm glad (none)
    that Frist turned down Reid's compromise offers.  It wouldve sucked for us if he had taken one, but Frist has backed himself in a corner but good.  I am confident that even if the Senate goes nuclear, we will be able to take it back, and then the Republicans won't be able to stop us :-P.

    Seriously, we should reinstate the filibuster once we take back the power, but I'm getting a little ahead of myself here.

    •  Getting ahead (none)
      No fucking way.

      What's done is done.

      If it is nuked, it is nuked forever.

      No putting the genie back in the bottle.

      And when I say Frist I mean Dobson.

      by Armando on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:43:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The time to put it back (none)
        would be next time we have a Democratic Senate and a Republican administration. We'd have no use for it then, and it would just be a time bomb waiting to go off again.

        Those who cannot remember the future are condemned to repeat it.

        by Abou Ben Adhem on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:50:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, it's just like Armando said. (none)
          Once it's been done, it sets a precedent.  Everybody will do it when they need it.  It doesn't matter if the Democrats put it back because they don't need it.
          •  Unless we make them pay through the nose first. (none)
            Then they'll think twice about doing it again.

            Those who cannot remember the future are condemned to repeat it.

            by Abou Ben Adhem on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:07:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Exactly (4.00)
              I posted on this earlier today.  The Demos should actually PROMISE that once the Repugs set off the nuke option, that they will not clean up the mess.  

              Forgive the cut-and-paste if you already say this earlier, but I think it's a good thing to throw into the argument.  Imagine if Reid and / or other prominent Dems said something like this:


              We've tried to negotiate with you in good faith, but in return we've had OUR faith repeatedly insulted and maligned by your leaders.  Your response has been that those of us who won't go along with 100% of what Republicans want are somehow evil people, and must be dealt with by giving us no voice in our government, or even -- you've more than hinted -- by violence.  This, despite the fact that we represent the votes of over half the people in this great nation.   You are determined to push through your "nuclear option" and make this a one-party government.

              Well, OK.

              We have promised to fight this, your most recent power grab, with every fiber of our beings.  And we will.  And we'll continue to fight every one of your attempts to make this a government of the Republican party, by the Republican party and -- mostly -- FOR the Republican party and the people who bankroll it.  

              But IF you succeed with your "nuclear option" -- we stand here today to give you this very solemn promise.  Please listen carefully:

              Not only will we grind business to halt in the Senate, and derail your legislative agenda -- which is terrible for the working people of America anyway...  

              But IF you break this rule to grab even more power, we Democrats promise you -- we GUARANTEE -- that we will not fix it for you when -- yes, WHEN --  we are the majority again.  You will have to live with the system you demanded.

              And we WILL be the majority again, very soon.  Please don't kid yourselves into believing otherwise.  With your inept economic leadership, your trashing of America's standing in the world, your contempt for the privacy rights of American citizens, your dishonest governance at every level, and with your leadership steeped in corruption -- well, the days of Republican leadership are drawing very quickly to an end.  

              And then you will be stuck with this one-party system you've set in place.  Every rule you have bent, every power grab you've made -- we'll keep them in effect.  But you will now be on the other end.  And don't count on us to fix it for you, because we won't.   We'll be too busy cleaning up the mess you've made of this country.

              And when you whine about it on Fox News, we will remind you of this day, and we'll say:  "But this is what you wanted!  This was the stand you took!  This is what you value!  Remember?"  

              And when you stammer, "but...but..."...well,  then you'll have exposed that you really never had any values at all, except your own lust for power.  Because you're either lying about your principles now, or you'll be lying then.  And at that point we'll tell you to sit down, and think about that for a while, and get back to us when and only when you're ready to help us fix the country and make it great again.  

              So I want everyone to remember this time, this day, when we Democrats control Congress again, and you Republicans inevitably cry "unfair" about not getting a seat at the table.  We'll be happy to pull out all the many quotes and clips and remind you, and the press, and the people, who decided it was good to do business like this.  You will have to live with the system you set up, and you'll have to like it.  'Cause we won't be helping you out of it.

              That's a promise.


              It would probably make no difference at this point, but it could give the few wavering Repugs some pause.  

              Better yet, it will disarm future arguments from the always-shameless GOP about how the Dems are hypocrites for keeping the no-filibuster rule in place, because they once opposed it.  Because they were fucking WARNED.

              Once a generation or two has passed, maybe we look into reinstating the filibuster.  But not until every single lying sack of shit Republican who now sits in the Senate is long gone.  

        •  Armando is right because (3.66)
          what's at stake here is not the judicial filibuster, or the filibuster in general.  What's at stake is the principle that 51 Senators can change the rules at will, even though the rules say otherwise.  And once THAT precedent is set, it simply can't be unset.
          •  But I really think the long-term effects of this (none)
            ...will be severe enough that we'll have no choice.

            I don't think this country can function without a politically neutral judiciary.

            So yes, when our turn comes, exploit this to the hilt; take back tenfold whatever ground we lose now. Exploit it until there can be no question in anyone's mind how disastrous this thing is.

            Then bury it forever.

            Those who cannot remember the future are condemned to repeat it.

            by Abou Ben Adhem on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:35:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  optimism (none)
      I think I'd prefer the optimism focused on the current situation rather than regaining the senate in '06 or '08 or whenever.  Let's not start assuming the senate will go nuclear.  I, for one, don't think that it will.

      I definitely agree with your first statement.  Frist refusing to compromise opens the table for a best case scenario.  The filibust holds.  Dems look strong.

      "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when? -Hillel Pennachio

      by TigerX on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:47:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  re (none)
      No, we shouldn't. The entire idea of restraint and minority rights is that both sides get the protection. Why should we give them their protection back if, as soon as they're back in the majority, they'll take it away from us again? If they go nuclear, we damn well will take full advantange of it once we're back in power.

      Wesley Clark in 2008

      by loyalson on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:48:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  ideas (none)
    Slow them down.When they ask to waive by consent the reading of some long lengthy bill,resolution etc object call a quorom and make thwm read every line!We shouldve done this years ago.Why are we proud that we let through almost all of the nominees?We should be disgusted!

    When the rapture comes can I have your stuff?

    by kerry on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:43:29 PM PDT

  •  Their plan has been evident (4.00)
    for a while now.

    I'm surprised any Democrats believe they can or should try to honestly broker a deal here.

    Reid knows it, Schumer knows it, Kennedy knows it, heck, even McCain knows it.

    It's all or nothing, and if not now, then later.
    They have to do this because the need a 51 baseball bat for complete control.

    If they get it, they won't even have to talk to Democrats or acknowledge their existence for the next 2 years.

    Visit:  PoliticalStrategy

    •  Or GOP Moderates (4.00)
      like Snowe, Chafee, Specter, etc.

      Hunter made this point in a post the other day.

      And when I say Frist I mean Dobson.

      by Armando on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:44:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What GOP Moderates (none)
        No one has any balls left. Why are they so afraid of their own party?
        That poll showing dropping approval ratings for the Republicans should be saying one thing:
        BE AFRAID OF THE VOTERS. Elections are peaceful revolutions-if you don't follow the will of the people, they will find a way to get rid of you eventually.

        Nicolae Ceausescu after the "voters" were done with him.
    •  The only way a deal occurs (none)
      is if the Republicans don't have the votes to change the filibuster rules.  The republican party line is that all the judges get through.  If any Republicans are willing to go against their party on that score, they would be willing to vote against the nuclear option.

      This also means that if there is no compromise, that means there are not 6 Republicans who would vote to keep the filibuster at all....If there are 6 Republicans who would vote to uphold the filibuster, they would get the best deal from the Democrats they could.

      *No compromise=Frist/Dobson has the votes. *

      •  I Think You're Dead On Right... (none)
        We can start figuring out how we get our pay-back. I'm not too worried over these judges and the end of filibuster. The Republic will survive. I'll just be that much more inclined to fight for the flame thrower, so that we can burn their asses with it.

        My slim ray of hope is that Frist is so controlled by Dobson and his henchmen that he's willing to lead his party to a sure defeat on this issue.

        Iraq is deja vu all over again.

        by chuco35 on Wed May 18, 2005 at 10:12:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I agree (none)
    Frist does not have to be part of compromise.  If there is one, he will certainly not be and his presidential amibitions are doomed
  •  Frist doesn't matter for a compromise (4.00)
    If 6 Rs and 6Ds strike a deal, Frist's position is irrelevent.  6 Rs means that the nuclear option will be defeated.  6 Ds mean that the agreed judges get cloture.

    Frist is leaning hard on the moderates not to make a deal, but if they decide to make one without him he can't stop him.

  •  But it's not entirely up to Frist (none)
    If Dems reach a deal with six Republican Senators -- the Nuclear option is dead and there's not a damn thing Frist/Dobson can do about it.

    "The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract." Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

    by pontificator on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:45:13 PM PDT

    •  We'll get old (none)
      waiting for that deal.

      It is a myth.

      And when I say Frist I mean Dobson.

      by Armando on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:48:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  what makes you so sure? (none)
        just asking.

        gop senators have a legitimate interest in preserving the filibuster should they ever need it in the future. why wouldn't some of them being willing to buck the leadership and the theocons on this?

        "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity" -Yeats

        by jethropalerobber on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:50:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Perhaps (none)
        But it's really up to six repub senators.  If they want to do a deal, it will get done.  The question is whether six spirit[s] are willing.

        "The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract." Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

        by pontificator on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:51:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  They won't do it (none)
          I would point you to the AP story that reports that all talks have failed but then you will tell me they can start up again.

          But the bottom line is no deals period.

          And when I say Frist I mean Dobson.

          by Armando on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:54:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You mean this story? (4.00)

            Congressional aides said late Wednesday the negotiators failed to reach agreement but would resume their talks Thursday. The aides spoke on condition of anonymity because the discussions are being held behind closed doors.

            It's a common tactic of hard-nose negotiators to pretend there's no chance of a deal.  However, many cases nevertheless get settled on the Courthouse steps.  This isn't over yet.

            "The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract." Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

            by pontificator on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:57:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It is over (none)

              And when I say Frist I mean Dobson.

              by Armando on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:01:09 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I have no inside info (none)
                Maybe you do.  In any event, we'll see.

                "The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract." Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

                by pontificator on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:03:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  They're Still Talking (none)
                Armando, I think you fundamentally underestimate the egos of these Senators who want to work a compromise and present themselves as The Bipartisan Defenders Of Senate Tradition.  Guys like Specter, Warner and McCain could give two shits about Frist's 2008 chances.

                They believe in their own legacies.

                "Let's put our heads together/And start a new country up/Our father's father's father tried/Erased the parts he didn't like" - R.E.M., "Cuyahoga"

                by Adam B on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:04:42 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I think you underestimate (none)
                  the degree to which Dobson runs the Republican Party.

                  And when I say Frist I mean Dobson.

                  by Armando on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:10:02 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Let's think of 6 (none)
                    McCain Snowe and Chaffee are automatic so we're only talking 3.

                    Specter?  He just won reelection and is facing cancer.  Maybe his knees quake at the thought of Dobson, and then again, maybe they don't.

                    Warner -- an old old very rich man who could chuck it all if he felt like it.  He cares about tradition, supposedly.

                    Trent Lott -- The new Repub establishment hates him.  And he hates them.  Don't you think he would live to stick it to Frist?

                    Feel free to add your own.

                    "The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract." Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

                    by pontificator on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:16:18 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  except (none)
                    The Republicans involved in the deal are Dobson-proof: safe incumbents like Specter (2010), McCain and Warner; NE moderats from Maine and RI where FotF has no sway.

                    "Let's put our heads together/And start a new country up/Our father's father's father tried/Erased the parts he didn't like" - R.E.M., "Cuyahoga"

                    by Adam B on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:17:31 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  exactly (none)
      this isn't about frist

      "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity" -Yeats

      by jethropalerobber on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:48:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Strange Feeling (none)
    That this will end up in a compromise where moderates of both parties forge a coalition and come up with something.  Frist tries to bring up a vote for nuke option, it fails....Reid tries to run a filibuster on certain nominees, it fails.  In the end the moderates of both parties gain MAJOR power within the Senate, and can act almost independently of the leadership.

    All I can say is if I were a moderate, this is a prime opportunity to form a centrist splinter group.

    "Dude, Wheres the soul of the Democratic Party"

    by marcvstraianvs on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:46:16 PM PDT

    •  I think you misread Reid (none)

      And when I say Frist I mean Dobson.

      by Armando on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:49:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Reid (none)
        Not underestimating him, since he himself would fall under the catagory of a moderate Democrat.  However Nelson, Pryor, Landrieu, Lincoln, Lieberman and Salazar could easily team up with Snowe, Collins, McCain, Chafee, Specter and Warner.  A coalition of those 12 could pretty much control Senate business.  The only thing I'd wonder about is if Frist would go to the point of stripping chairmanships from the R's, esp Warner and Specter.

        Just seems like the time is ripe for a compromise that could form a centrist coalition, which could hold sway over any of the Senate business.

        "Dude, Wheres the soul of the Democratic Party"

        by marcvstraianvs on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:58:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The Centrist View Is The Democrat View Here (none)
      Well, except that no Democrats are defecting to the Republican side -- this is a one way street. There appears to be no major "radical Democrat" position here, just a position that ALL Democrats are taking along with some Republicans.

      So I'd change your statement to read: this is a prime opportunity to splinter off the moderate Republicans from being completely controlled by Bush. If they are drawn over to the Democrats on this highly publicized issue, maybe it'll make it easier the next time.

      GOP = Grandstanding Old Party

      by Addison on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:51:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Certainly the rational, true conservative (none)
        repubs need to realize that the Dobson/Frist wing of the GOP is not made up of people who are simply "more conservative" conservatives. They need to understand that these extremos are an entirely different political species altogether; aspiring, reactionary tyrants on the attack.

        The sooner regular reality-based conservatives stop automatically self-identifying with these evangelical fascists just because they're sharing the label "conservative", the better off we'll all be. And if enough repubs in the Senate realize that they don't want to be part of the group that goes down in history as being the ones extorted by the religious maniacs in a way that brought about the downfall of American democracy, then they'll stand up in defense of the country.

        I won't hold my breath.

        Defeat the sound-bite.

        by sbj on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:30:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And within the context of the Senate (none)
          this is as much about crushing the minority party as it is silencing moderate Republicans.

          I hope Frist's no compromise, must push Owen nomination forward approach is a sign of weakness in terms of the votes on the nuclear option and that he is playing to lose, positioning himself as the victim for future political gain.

          •  Playing to Lose -- YES!! (none)
            I've been thinking about this and it seems to me that the best possible outcome for Frist/Dobson is to lose, narrowly, on this.  They avoid all the negative consequences of winning, get to paint the Dems as obstructionists with no ideas, and allow GOP moderates to stand up and be publicly moderate for the voters back home in case that helps for the next election...

            And here's the best part of all -- the Bible thumpers in the heartland are reminded yet again that they're oppressed by the forces of evil, and that they have to fight TWICE AS HARD in '06, FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FOREVER the Homo Devil Dems!!

            This is (Rove's?) genius -- it was the same game with the gay marriage amendment, the Schiavo thing, playing to lose and thereby win big... How to fight it??

          •  As appealing as it might be (none)
            to think Dobson is "playing to lose" this particular gambit, I don't think his psychopathology even permits the concept of "losing" to enter into his insane consciousness. He's too deluded, too infatuated with his own ideas and the "rightness" of his cause to even understand the nature of "playing to lose" as a strategy.

            Frist has lost regardless of which way this whole debacle goes. He's damned if he's successful, and damned if he's defeated; he just doesn't know it yet.

            Defeat the sound-bite.

            by sbj on Thu May 19, 2005 at 08:06:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  power, yes... (none)
      ability to act independent of the two  

      "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when? -Hillel Pennachio

      by TigerX on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:52:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What's with all the denial here? (none)
      The bomb's placed, and the timer is set, the only compromise is who gets the majority.

      Instead of talkin 'bout compromise, we need to be leaning on our Senators.

      Celebrating the one year anniversary of ~americanEntropy~.
      Serving truth addicts since 2004.

      by hfiend on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:22:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My Senators (none)
        Are Voinovich and DeWine.

        Voinovich is a lost cause, from what I know hes never participated in a filibuster and believes they are wrong on both sides.

        DeWine has heard from me more than 5 times, and mailed me several times back.  Basically said know it will be tough, but atleast attempt to do a compromise with the moderates and save the Senatorial procedures.  Doubt he'd be able to vote against it in a vote, unless he's already reached a compromise.

        "Dude, Wheres the soul of the Democratic Party"

        by marcvstraianvs on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:27:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Don't bogart.... (none)
      that joint, my friend.

      God IS NOT a special interest group, Dammit!

      by God loves goats on Wed May 18, 2005 at 09:36:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  it's pretty bad (4.00)
    when you are the majority in every branch of federal government and you still need to break the rules to do what you want.
    •  I might (4.00)
      also say, it's pretty sad when people who are perfectly willing to break their own rules whenever convenient are in charge of every branch of government.

      Must. Find. Tequila. Oy.

    •  Reality Check: (4.00)
      Remember--what they want is not to pass X law or Y nominee.

      This is conquest.

      So, yes, when you actually conquer a nation, as a rule you generally break rules.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:06:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If we ever regain power (none)
      we just excert our majority power and do away with all that silly voting shit.

      God IS NOT a special interest group, Dammit!

      by God loves goats on Wed May 18, 2005 at 09:41:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  frist won't, but mccain and company might (none)
    we only need 6 of them.

    a deal that rejects owens, brown, and pryor and reserves the right to filibuster owenses, browns, and pryors in the future is a good deal. it gives is most of what we want and castrates the theocrats.

    "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity" -Yeats

    by jethropalerobber on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:48:06 PM PDT

  •  I disagree (4.00)
    That was a quick turnaround from comment to post!

    How do you know, though. If Frist has set this thing in motion and finds he doesn't have the votes, what's to say he won't wait for the juiciest offer from the Democrats (who mistakenly think he won't, as you say, accept any compromise) and snatch it? Wouldn't that be the one way Frist -- assuming he realizes he doesn't have the votes -- could save face; to take a Democratic offer that makes the Dems look like unprincipled crumplers?

    Additionally, the question of proposed compromises versus enacted ones is NOT irrelevant. The negotiation story will leak out to the press (and by press I MEAN Fox News) that the Democrats were offering to rubber stamp the very judges that they said were dangerous ideologues too extreme for the bench. The press will say, "LIARS, they trumped up the charges!" and the public will go, "Hmmmm, I guess Bush's nominees aren't so extreme after all." That appearance of lack of principle will weaken the perceived moral strength of the Democrats and will damage their public relations image on the issue.

    How could you miss that?

    GOP = Grandstanding Old Party

    by Addison on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:48:10 PM PDT

    •  Save face? (none)
      A deal brokered by someone else in contravention to his no negotiation terms?

      Nonsense. He is broken by such a deal.

      Will not happen imo.

      And when I say Frist I mean Dobson.

      by Armando on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:51:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Keeping Up Appearances / Filibuster Terminal? (none)
        Ok, so what about the appearance of being unprincipled that a leaked compromise (enacted or not) could bring about? Wouldn't that damage the Dems? Isn't it better to just call off the negotiations or at least take Owen, Brown, and other extremists off the table?

        Also, you seem pretty sure six Republicans won't defect, right? What exactly do you see happening in the next week or so? Reading between the lines -- no defections from GOP, no compromise w/ Frist ("ABFIMD") -- it seems like your saying the filibuster is not long for this world. Should we call the florist and have our black suits or dresses (or both!) pressed?

        GOP = Grandstanding Old Party

        by Addison on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:04:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I see (none)
          the demand for promising NOT to filibuster being required of Dems.

          In essence, the nuke option by agreement.

          A nonstarter.

          No deal.

          And when I say Frist I mean Dobson.

          by Armando on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:13:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  This ship has sailed (none)
          The R's have already been making the argument on the floor that the D's compromise offer proves that the nominees are actually acceptable.  I think it's a bullshit argument, and that an offer to compromise doesn't mean you didn't have a legitimate case (particularly if you were going to lose anyway) but either way, what's done is done.
      •  Aaron Brown... (none)
        ...talking to Dashcle said, "Frist [and by Frist you mean Dobson] won't get any points for trying."  Daschle nodded knowingly.

        Okay, maybe Bush is killing innocent people around the world but at least the economy sucks.

        by Pyewacket on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:18:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Simply (none)
    the act of re-nominating these judges fairly screams an inherent inability to compromise. The Republicans are crying that "Never before" has anyone filibustered a judge. Well, we know how true that is. Apparently, Never Before, has any administration had the hubris™ to re-nominate candidates that have already been rejected by the Senate. Turds.
  •  Love the new talking point Armando (none)
    We should get everyone here repeating it ad nauseum
  •  compromise` (4.00)
    there should be no compromise for the simple reason that the whole thing is a cheat of the rules.

    they can do this with no compromise... to negotiate against a cheat is to legitimize the cheat... fundamentally saying "ok, you can do that, so we're willing to counter offer".

    They can't do that.

    If they do it anyway, it's like a crime being committed, you can't go along with it.

    You can't say, "Ok, if you don't rob the bank we'll give you $10,000"... because that means they robbed the bank after all AND you helped them.

  •  This is about more (4.00)
    than just 7 unacceptable judges.  Waiting in the wings are more nominations that Bush has yet to make.

    According to the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts , there were 46 vacant federal judgeships as of May 4. But that is fewer than half as many as in February 2001, the month after Bush took office, when there were 97 "empty courtrooms."

    And most of the vacancies that remain aren't  due to Senate delays. They are vacant because Bush has not yet named anyone to fill them. He's nominated persons to fill barely one-third of the vacancies, including 10 of 16 vacancies in the appeals courts, 6 of 29 vacancies in the federal district courts, and nobody to fill the single vacancy at the US Court of International Trade.

    Frist doesn't want to deal on 5 or 6 or 7 when he ultimately needs many, many more to appease Dobson & Co.

    The Bush administration is pissing on your leg and telling you its raining.

    by chinook on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:51:29 PM PDT

    •  Yes, It's About 3 Years of Appts. (none)
      I think Ed Schultz was emphasizing this today.

      They have time to make a return of Dem control something near to moot.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:16:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thank God for that... (none)
    The terrorists in the senate will settle for nothing less than the destruction of America. Acquiescing to their demands, even part of their demands, so they don't do it this time brings no guarantee that won't do it again in the very near future.  We should not be looking for a compromise and should be happy that they are rejecting the ones we have (unwisely) offered because no meaningful agreement can be reached with these madmen who hate democracy.
  •  Good (4.00)
    It's time for Frist to do his Slim Pickens impersonation and ride the bomb all the way down, waving his hat and whooping and hollering.

    I can't stress this enough: This nuclear option showdown is what happens when Democrats show some spine.  It isn't nice and comfy and stress free.  It's tense, a little uncertain, and it leads to stare-downs with Republicans.  

    About frickin' time we got some leadership willing to do this.  I hope they have the onions to keep it up when they get their majorities back.

    And let me say with great pride that it was one of my Senators, Chuck Schumer, who caught Frist flatfooted with that question today (yesterday?), and turned him into a babbling idiot.

  •  Nothing short of a "coup d'etat" (4.00)
    Let's call it for what it is, a "coup d'etat"

    From Wikipedia

    Tactically, a coup usually involves control of some active portion of the military while neutralizing the remainder of a country's armed services. This active group captures or expels leaders, seizes physical control of important government offices, means of communication, and the physical infrastructure, such as streets and power plants. The coup succeeds if its opponents fail to dislodge the plotters, allowing them to consolidate their position, obtain the surrender or acquiescence of the populace and surviving armed forces, and claim legitimacy.

    The military is not involved but by different means the Republicans are achieving the same result.

    Ladies and gentlemen, behold a blodless coup d'etat!; an oasis of truth.

    by Shockwave on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:01:13 PM PDT

    •  The Military Is Involved-- (none)
      they're just not shooting. The military complex is spending and lobbying. Under our system they don't need to shoot.

      The military outgrew the functional jurisdiction of the Constitution well over a generation ago.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:21:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  We pride ourselves (none)
    on our unique ability to transfer power peacefully. And, in the history of our little blue orb, it is unique, and something to take great pride in.

    This is what the repubs are attacking. Our ability to peacefully transfer power from one regime to the next rests in one simple concept: Minority Rights.

    Our 'secret' has been that no matter how much you disagree with who comes to power, there's only so much damage they could do. The nookular option is a beachhead assault on that tried and true tradition.

    Without that balance, the only option is mob rule, which has a dreadful and violent history.

    Don't get me wrong. I am not advocating a violent reaction to the nookular option. To the contrary, I am dreading it.

    •  Sigh (none)
      Why is it that even the sane, sensible side of American politics (eg Kos readers) buy into this American exceptionalism?

      There are democracies transfering power peacefully all over the world, and have been for as long as the USA has existed.

      Don't get me wrong - I admire the US constitution in many ways. But this 'America is the only place in the world...' is almost always bullshit.

  •  Lets Compromise... (none)
    Dems compromised with the GOP on No Child Left behind. They compromised on not one, but two tax cuts. They compromised on the Bankruptcy Bill. They compromised on the Energy Bill. 208 judges. The Prescription drug Bill. Tort Reform.

    How are those compromises workin out?

  •  Certainly there will be no (none)
    compromises; megalomaniacal crusaders never compromise. They're simply too angry, too delusional, and too narcissistic; infatuated with their own righteousness.

    But just as Dobson in a certain way has been outmaneuvered by the White House, (he rallied the vote for the regime but did not get in return what he was promised), so now, IMO, Dobson has gotten Frist to be his toady by promising him support in '08.

    I have a feeling, however, that Dobson will dump Frist in favor of someone else with a little more fire in his zeal, and the ghoulish, hapless Frist will be caught completely by surprise. (Pat Robertson already dissed Frist, and no one even talks about it in the news).

    In the meantime, Frist is, (as Armando describes), a direct extension of Dobson; a ruthless tyrant in the making.

    Defeat the sound-bite.

    by sbj on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:07:00 PM PDT

  •  In my little dream world... (none)
    ... what is going on is that Frist (and by Frist I do not mean Dobson) has realized that the religious right has taken over the party and must be stopped, so he refuses to compromise and then arranges it so that the nuclear option fails to pass, and the religious right looks weak by comparison, rational minds prevail, and the thinking man's republican party (the traditional small goverment, low taxes, keep the federal government out of people's lives type party) starts to resurge.

    However my dream world is just that, and Frist, and by Frist I mean Dobson, honestly believes that God has spoken to him and that he needs to deliver the courts to the wingnuts.



    Organizing my thoughts about how to win from 2005 forward -

    by FredFred on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:07:05 PM PDT

    •  You're Not the Only One Who Suspects (none)
      ...that Frist would be willing to be beaten in a face-saving way on this, from what I've heard.

      But I don't see any thinking wo/man's Republican party. Military, religion and economic ownership & leadership all profit in an authoritarian society, and all suffer in an Enlightenment democratic society.

      They have no incentive to return to a thinking society, and every reason to exterminate it.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:25:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And then Ahnold comes in and.... (none)
      blasts the hell out of everybody right?

      And then Jessica Simpson nurses 'em all back to health.

      I know, my little dream world is weirder than yours.  So what?

      God IS NOT a special interest group, Dammit!

      by God loves goats on Wed May 18, 2005 at 09:50:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  it dosent matter that this is so unpopular (4.00)
    with joe pub.they own the voteing machines,its rigged,they are not worried about the dem.s comming back to power with no filib. it will never happen!!! they will go full bore for a fascist one party gov. after the judges they will go after the professers. everything else is niceities. this is a fascist power grab for our country,please see link for more understanding
  •  Good job, Armando (none)

    "Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed." General Buck Turgidson

    by muledriver on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:10:28 PM PDT

  •  Where is the Daily Kos whip? (none)
    I want a vote count.

    Where's our Hammer?

    Specter?  Squishy?
    Snowe?   Solid?
    Chafee?   Spineless/Squishy
    McCain?   Solid?
    Hagel?    Spineless/Squishy

    Any other potential votes available?

    Cheney?  Fucknut.

    If you love dkos, you'll love: Booman Tribune. What are you waiting for? Become a member.

    by BooMan23 on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:10:35 PM PDT

    •  Warner (none)
      If Warner sides with the Dems on this, he'd be the hammer.  I doubt an old bull who is quoted to love the senate would be able to blow it all up, and getting him on our side would definitely give Chafee and Hagel major cover.

      "Dude, Wheres the soul of the Democratic Party"

      by marcvstraianvs on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:19:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  McCain was rumored today (none)
      to abstain.

      I don't know if someone quoted him and I don't have the link.

      If he does, that means Frist doesn't need him and has the votes.

      •  Can you clarify? (none)
        because your post can be read two ways.

        Are you saying the McCain will only abstain if Frist doesn't need his vote?

        Or are you saying that if McCain doesn't vote against the "procedure" change that Frist will win as a result?

        What's your vote count?

        If you love dkos, you'll love: Booman Tribune. What are you waiting for? Become a member.

        by BooMan23 on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:29:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Wish I could find the link from this morning. (none)
          Can't remember where I read it, but the writer reported that McCain would abstain.

          My assumption at the time was that if he had made that choice, then Frist didn't need him and already had the votes.

          I think it's too close to call, and my vote count is scary.

          All depends on those courageous "moderates" who may want to save the Senate.  Then, of course, there's the Rove factor.

          I think Snowe, Collins, Chafee, maybe Warner, maybe Hagel .  .  .  

          I would have thought McCain was a lock until this morning.  

          Bottom line?  Who needs cover will run for it.

          •  Without scouring (none)
            the public comments of the various Senators and trying to read the tea leaves, your analysis is basically the same as mine.

            One interesting vote is Liddy Dole.  I wonder what Bob thinks.  And I wonder if he has any influence over his wife.

            If you love dkos, you'll love: Booman Tribune. What are you waiting for? Become a member.

            by BooMan23 on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:38:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well (none)
              The facts are not subject to analysis.

              McCain is an ANNOUNCED NO vote.

              And when I say Frist I mean Dobson.

              by Armando on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:38:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That's what I thought (none)
                until this morning, but maybe my source was misinformed.

                As for the upthread on Dole, she's my Senator, and she's going nuclear.

                No way she's fighting the brave fight here.  She's a good soldier and her letters ( the few she responds to) are right from the Talking Points.

              •  Okay (none)
                I was taking his account at face value.

                If McCain is no, Specter is no, Snowe is no, and Chafee is no, we are still shory a few votes.

                Any prospects?  I'd like to hold out some hope for Collins and Hagel.

                Any wild cards?

                Warner, Dole, Voinovich, Sununu?

                If you love dkos, you'll love: Booman Tribune. What are you waiting for? Become a member.

                by BooMan23 on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:43:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Vote Count (none)
                  Snowe, Chafee and McCain have annonced no.  Collins is probably a no.  We need two more.  There three more candidates:

                  1.  Warner
                  2.  Specter
                  3.  Hagel

                  I think we may lose all three.  Specter did sme very dirty work on Anita Hill, so I think he may go nulcear.  Warner is being coy but appears to have made up his mind--who knows.  I thought we had a shot at Hagel but now I doubt it....But I am reading the tea leaves like everyone else.
              •  This isn't the link I mentioned earlier, (none)
                but does indicate some of the questions about him.

                This, from the NYTimes

                Earlier, Senator John McCain, the Arizona Republican who is among those trying to reach a compromise, looked exasperated as he brushed off inquiries.

                "I don't know, I don't know, I don't know," the ordinarily talkative Mr. McCain said as he shooed away reporters. "It's a sensitive time."

            •  See downthread. (none)
              She's my Senator.  A good Bushnevik and will support FRist.
          •  Today (none)
            Schumer said McCain was a definite No.

            With Chafee and Snowe.

            I believe Schumer.

            He mentioned no one else as definite.

            Frankly, I don;t believe the story you reference.

            And when I say Frist I mean Dobson.

            by Armando on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:38:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, yeah. (none)
          And I'm encouraged about Specter now after the commentary on this thread tonight.

          His speech this morning sounded like he was going with Frist[Dobson].


    •  working hard on Graham (none)
      he wants a compromise, abut I fear he wont break /w the party.  I have convinced several pople down on Kiawah Island (a la-d-da gated community in costal Carolina near Charleston) to write him, I've either written, emailed or called him every day since last tuesday.  

      Graham is an OK guy (for a Repub from SC), lets see if he wants to be a moderate.

      Celebrating the one year anniversary of ~americanEntropy~.
      Serving truth addicts since 2004.

      by hfiend on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:39:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What about... (none)
      Hatch?  Is that shit on his nose?

      God IS NOT a special interest group, Dammit!

      by God loves goats on Wed May 18, 2005 at 09:52:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is Pretty Simple (none)
    When the populace has had enough they will react. It might mean sinking into dictatorship even - you're getting close - but it won't stop until the voters have had enough. It may well be that the only way to do this is to let them nuke the Senate rules. Maybe one of these whackjob Judges will be the straw that breaks the camel's backwhen they execute a child or torture a person of colour or jail a woman who exercises choice. Maybe your people haven't had enough yet.

    Canada - where a pack of smokes is ten bucks and a heart transplant is free.

    by dpc on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:11:25 PM PDT

  •  The Precedent (none)
    is the biggest thing.  It has absolutely shit meaning to the judges....they are just pawns...the thugs don't care about them, they are expendable....plenty of them sitting in courtrooms around the country.

    The key is the precedent of 51 senators being able to break rules in the senate.  Watch the shit hit the fan then.  Does anyone here actually think they will stop with filibustering of judges?  No frickin way.  Every rule will be broke.  This is called all or none.  It could in theory be the end of the democratic party.

    •  But It's No Theory, It's a Formal Movement (none)
      "Constitution in Exile."

      They believe that progressive governance is unConstitutional, and they're staffing the judiciary to be able to get those rulings.

      Not all the right is part of any single wingnut movement, but all their major forces stand to gain from an end to liberalism, and lose if it comes back to any degree.

      There isn't any secret about this on their side although there's oceans of denial on ours.

      It's conquest.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:28:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The republicans are all fools. (none)
    What is going on in their heads when they are listening to Frist, the most boring , most uninspiring thingy on the face of the earth.
    How embarrassing to have such a dull representative.  But they are all in step behind him, acting like he's the greatest orator ever, because they are scared shitless of the god people who won't give them their allowance if they say a peepin word against him.  

    Just saw the hard workin' compromise group on CNN.  They are looking so darn serious about the whole thing, they could sure fool you into thinking a compromise might just happen, Armando.  Do you suppose they believe it is as hopeless as you do?  What are they doing then, when they get behind closed doors? Maybe they are really planning an overthrow of the govt. and just saying that they are working on the fillibuster.  I can dream , can't I?

    (Over the weekend I dreamed out loud of forming another country, and RFTR accused me of treason)

  •  Jeebus! (none)
    Why the f--- are Democrats pussy-footing around with Dobson?  Go for that bastard's jugular!

    Are Democrats on crack?  Do they think Dobson is popular?  As I posted in an earlier thread, most Americans have no idea who Dobson is.  Those who do, associate him with accusing SpongeBob of being gay and orchestrating the Terry Schiavo circus.  Is Bill Frist under the delusion that either of thse were popular?

    A thought experiment:  Imagine it is 1993. Louis Farrakhan is dictating to Democratic leaders in the House what to do.  Now imagine the GOP reaction.  Just imagine it.  I can guarantee you that the LAST thing any GOP politician would want to be seen doing is compromising with the Nation of Islam.  Not compromising would be seen as a badge of honor.

    Now why on Earth is Reid allowing Dobson to go unscathed?

    •  no easy feat (none)
      and probably one that would best not be done unwell.

      i fully agree that dobson et. al. suck, that they transcend 'crackpot' into the realm of 'dangerous.'  i would go on to suspect (and i am not religious, so, apologies to those of you who are for the blasphemy) that jesus probably thinks the whole lot of these bastards so thoroughly bite, and that their plans for the afterlife should leave aside the matter of whether to pack a sweater.

      but i would offer that to (deservedly) go after these people of BAD faith in a manner that cannot be (mis)construed as an attack on faith in general requires the messaging / massaging skills of a surgeon.  and when i say surgeon, i do not mean frist.

      we're collectively ramping up well on matters of framing, but when it comes to the infrastructure of spin, the right is still enjoying our breakfast on a regular basis.  and obviously, whoever's water the the sclm carries these days, it ain't ours.  

      i do NOT advocate jesusing up our party per se, but i do think that one of the challenges that we face is to successfully deliver the message that our values are so much more tightly synched with what jesus really spoke of (and if that matters to you, then won't you give us a long-overdue second look?)

      sorry for combining long-windedness with off-topicness.  i agree that these sunzah whoh-ahs
      are ripe for a jaunty, public, and thorough de-pegging.  but it's got to be executed artfully, complete with backlash forcefield. 'til then, probably best to look but don't touch.

    •  I think it is our job to do something about Dobson (none)
      If we take a lesson from Republicans, they keep their front man squeaky clean.The dirty work goes down to the worker bees.

      Problem is, seems most worker bees are on blogs or responding to them, information passed to ourselves.

      Although, listened to C-Span this AM and think there was a significant difference in the content and tone of calls.  Appears that some are getting informed.

  •  Many compromises - deals - are possible (none)

    'Republicans'? Y'mean Privatizing, Downsizing, Court-Packing, Red Ink Republicans?

    by RonK Seattle on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:29:42 PM PDT

  •  MSM gets it right (none)

    "Within weeks of the "Hulk" meeting, former Republican leader Trent Lott (R-Miss.) coined the term "nuclear option" to describe a rule change that would ban judicial filibusters and allow up-or-down votes on the president's nominees. The notion once had seemed unimaginable, but Lott and other conservatives now favored it."

    "Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed." General Buck Turgidson

    by muledriver on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:33:14 PM PDT

  •  Dr. Frist; will never be president (none)
    Sen. Frist is just a moron and is pandering to the far right wing. The Rev. Dobson may behind Frist, but the moral majority leader Rev. Farewell failed to mention Sen. Frist as someone he could support for president, (see ABC Sunday morining show with George S).

    The conspiracy theory is that Sen. Frist is not the presidential candidate the far right wants in 2008. So why not let Sen. Frist soil himself with the "nuclear option", he wins he is a failure to moderate Repugs as being to closely associated to far right, if he loses on the "nuclear option" he is a failure becasue he not corral his own members in his party to pass W's judges.  

    And thus clears the road for the "closet" conservatie Jeb.

    •  Yet both Jeb! and Frist (none)
      will be marked by the Schiavo affair.  It was Jeb! who made the call to Senator Mel "I Channel for the Bush Family" Martinez that got the whole Save Terry thing moving in Congress.
    •  A failure to the moderates (none)
      You can be a failure to the moderates in the Republican party and still be their nominee for President.  Frist needs to win this fight, or else the fractures that this loss could create in the conservative base might be wide enough to keep Frist out or allow a moderate to win the nomination in a divisive primary.

      What I want to know (as I ask in my diary) is which moderate Republican has the gravitas and the skill to get credit for negotiating a bipartisan settlement while making Frist look bad enough to keep him from consolidating his base for 2008?

      Florida Democrats: Learn how to WIN at the polls!

      by JR on Thu May 19, 2005 at 05:24:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Jeb is at least an ostensible Catholic. (none)
      I can't see the fundies supporting him.  They may find it useful to conceal their hatred of Catholicism some of the time, but it's real all the same.
  •  the Senate needs someone to dispense with the (none)
    nicey nice - no more mealy mouthing of "my good disingenuous friend" when they mean to say LYING SACK. Someone with the balls to stand up, channel that Mr. Galloway and excoriate the pathetic mumbling flock of sockpuppets.

    Either that, or someone with the moral authority to whip up a Wellstone wind of epiphanies and better angels.

    Or a composite Superior Being.

    Heroes are thin on the ground, hereabout.

    Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

    by bumblebums on Wed May 18, 2005 at 08:42:43 PM PDT

  •  How we use this in 06 and 08: (none)
    I really, really hope the folks at the DNC and MoveOn are paying attention. We have been given TONS of ammunition to take back the Congress in 06 and WH in 08.

    TV Ad #1:
    A series of pictures: A KKK march - A cross burning - A lynched black man - David Duke - Tony Perkins - Bill Frist. Narator: Is this the man you want for president? <end of ad>

    TV Ad #2:
    A series of pictures: A cemetary - gradually zooming in closer, closer, closer to a headstone - eventually the viewer can read the name = Mr. Charles Ray DeLay. Narator: "Died in 1988 when his son Tom DeLay removed him from life support after an accident." The words HYPOCRITE flash on the screen. <end of ad>

    We need to fight back. And you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

  •  What Independent Judiciary!? (4.00)
    We have listened on the networks to a lot of pious fol-de-rol about the constitutional sanctity of an independent judiciary. The concept IS important, but the fight over judicial nominees, ongoing quite heatedly at least in my adult lifetime (50 years), is testimony to the very powerful forces that seek expression via judicial appointment. The independence of the judiciary is an independence only in relation to other branches of government; it is NOT an independence from major social and economic or political forces.

    This fight is about big business's right to do as it pleases, with toadies in the role of judges. (The abortion and other "social" issues are demogogic covers for the assertion of the rights of propertied interests.) Judges are like cops -- they do the role they are assigned to do. Many judges in Germany continued in their posts throughout the Weimar, Nazi, and postwar German governments. They served the needs of each of these very different regimes.

    "Man is born free; and everywhere he is in chains."

  •  Who the hell do you thugs represent? (none)
    They will all lose in 2006, and the only thing they will have is a stacked court and justices that will get the crappiest cases where they can do little harm.

    Go on, keep pushing the American public, the straw that breaks the camels back is a court that is non-responsive to justice.  All the Scalia's in the world won't help you out of the hole you are digging.

    And all the laws you write, won't mean the paper they are written on when juries won't convict.

  •  I'm sick of us (3.50)
    compromising. Makes us look weak. Besides did you see Boxer lay out the background of one of the nominees? These people are nuts. Waaaay off the deep end, judgeship-wise.
  •  Why does only GOP have cajones? (none)
    Sucks being the side of compromise all the time.  'Turn the other cheek' sounds like a great philosophy, but what about realism?

    Check out Link TV's daily Middle East digest program, Mosaic.

    by shmooth on Wed May 18, 2005 at 09:12:01 PM PDT

  •  Preparation for Nuclear Winter. (none)
    It is apparent the Republican leadership is prepared to relegate the Constitution to the trash bin. The coup de etat has suceeded.

    The elimination of the secret ballot and use of police power to enforce voter suppression have been key weapons in bringing on this calamity.

    Preparation for  national strikes,-- as a major counter balance is available -- not only in our battered industrial sector, but in the service industries including nurses teachers, airline mechanics, Fed Ex and UPS. Communications workers, electricians and engineers can also be called on.

    People in other nations, far less empowered than we. have the fortitude, patriotism and stamina to bring major, even revolutionary change in their countries. It's happening now, world wide.

    The call should go out for a new Constitutional Convention. If the Constitution is to be changed,
    so be it. But it shall be done by the people, in public discussion,   and by universal secret ballot.

    The elections should be monitored by international organizations, including the UN Human Rights Watch, Jimmy Carter and if we still don't have enough people to guarantee a free election, maybe the Chinese. I hear they have a lot of people, and THEY'RE not beholden to Halliburton or Dobson.

    A small point. If Specter (are we SURE that's not Spectre?) does lose his Judiciary Chairmanship, which assures the battle is lost, we could recommend the  post go to Good Ol' Norm Coleman.
    Didn't George Galloway MP say that Coleman used to be a lawyer?

    I think I would enjoy that.

  •  Church and State to Merge (none)
  •  Why compromise? (none)
    It seems to me that there is only one reason to pursue these compromises, and I think Reid is smart enough to know this. The more the Dems put forth increasingly onerous compromises, thereby demonstating their good faith, the more reason for the few Repubs with a modicum of conscience and/or good sense to side with them and against the Neanderthal bullies and their stooges.

    Of course, the danger is that even those moderates, or perhaps especially they, realize that we can't keep going in the current narrow-minded, silly direction. So they may feel they have to put these judges in the courts while they can.

    These particular judges, however, are really in no one's interest to promote. Although they are likely to be in office a long time, the so-called principles they uphold will only have the most short-range positive effects to the tiny group who will benefit at all.

    Let's hope a few more Republican Senators see it this way, even while their arms are being twisted painfully behind their backs. It will take a great deal of courage.

  •  Specter's Dilemna (none)
    Will Arlen Specter stand on principle and help preserve 200 years of Senate Tradition by standing up to Bill Frist?

    (Oh, and when I say Frist I mean Dobson)

    If so it won't be to secure a noble place in the history books. I believe Arlen's scant mention in paragraph 7, Chapter 26 of Our American Story was secured 40 years ago ago when he burned the midnight oil for the Warren Commission to co-invent that fanciful take on physics known as the Magic Bullet Theory.

    But I suppose there remains the off chance that Arlen might suddenly grow some late-blooming spine, if only to issue a little payback to the frothing Loons for Jeezus (AKA the American Taliban) who've hijacked his Grand Old Party, beat him over the head with a cross and commanded him to get in step with The New Way or else.

    Of course a man in Arlen Specter's position has to weigh all the risks, and if he stands up against the Lord's True Minions yet fails to stem their tide, he has to worry about spending his final years in a Re-education Pogrom in the middle of Kansas, working side by side with a recovering homosexual schoolteacher to copy the book of Leviticus onto lamb skin parchment with a goose feather plume.

    And that would really mess up his golf schedule for the forseeable future.  

  •  The Sad Things is..... (none)
    That the Rethugs will probably get the votes, trigger the option, drag the country down the gutter...further that is...and still win in the next election because I still have not heard of what the Dems stand for other than Rethug lite.

    Can I get a vision of....anything....

    Don't blame me....I voted for Kodos! Neo-Cons don't die....they just go to the private sector to regroup

    by coheninjapan on Wed May 18, 2005 at 11:46:50 PM PDT

  •  BLOW THE PLACE UP (none)
    The Republicans need to stop being weenies.

    Change the RULES. PLEEEEASE.

    Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain

    by Liberal AND Proud on Thu May 19, 2005 at 04:46:45 AM PDT

  •  Don't you see the pattern? (none)
    Check back the links on my blog.

    The Dobson connection went off like a light bulb in my head: I think these clowns know it's a losing issue, and are going to rake in the cash off it.

    "It's better to realize you're a swan than to live life as a disgruntled duck."

    by Mumon on Thu May 19, 2005 at 06:57:43 AM PDT

  •  No Compromise; do you want Robert Bork a Supreme (none)
    Democrats take one quote:

    "It is better to die on your feet standing than to die on your knees crying."

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