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Already just 30 minutes after the announcement of the  "compromise" over the nuclear option I've seen bitching and moaning of how Democrats have "abandoned us" are "spineless", etc. etc. etc. What were these people expecting? A complete victory over the Rethugs even though they hold a 10 seat majority?  The mere fact that the GOP couldn't launch the nuclear option is a huge loss for them. How can I tell? Look at the reaction of their base (from the

I just left the GoP.

I'm done with them.


We've been snookered again. Picture Lucy whipping the football out from under Charlie Brown for about the millionth time.

Who would have ever thought that the GOP Senators would have folded to Democratic Demands?

I am Shocked!

The last time I was this surprised was this morning when the sun came up.

The GOP is now dead to me. Bill Frist....ah why even bother..


Bill Frist cannot control the RINO's in the Senate. The Democrats win again.

What the HELL is this???????? We don't need a deal!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am furious. I will NOT SEND ANY MORE MONEY TO THE REPUBS. We didn't NEED a deal and we don't WANT a deal!!!
I mailed my change of registration in this morning. Welcome to the growing ranks of the unaffiliated.
This is a sad day for the Republican party, and the conservative movement in this country! The Dems will likely gain in Congress in 2006 because of this kind of cowardice. What's the matter with you folks in Arizona????? Is McCain the best you can do??
It seems like Frist wouldn't have to votes to stop a potential filibuster on a SCOTUS nominee.
Underneath the chestnut tree; The Republicans sold you, and the GOP sold me.
Not another frigging dime or a minute of my time, I stay home in 06' or vote libertarian. Unfreakin believable
If this is true it is truly an outrage. The only deal is the one the crats got. Everything they wanted. We got nothing. Only thing to do now is support a third party that can hopefully pick up 10-15% of the vote and use it as leverage to bargain.
If this is true it is truly an outrage. The only deal is the one the crats got. Everything they wanted. We got nothing. Only thing to do now is support a third party that can hopefully pick up 10-15% of the vote and use it as leverage to bargain.
Republican moderate - horse sugar! What a bunch of stupid little pricks.
Go to the National Republican Senatorial Committee to voice your outrage. Below is my letter: The “Republican” senators I helped get into the majority have compromised on President Bush’s judicial nominations. I will tell every Republican I know not to contribute one thin dime to the NRSC ever again. We in the grassroots worked our tails off for this majority and McCain et al., have betrayed us, our president and his future Supreme Court nominees. I hope you realize that the NRSC will starve for funds for the foreseeable future. The 55-Senator GOP majority wasn’t worth our effort. The RINOs made a disgusting mistake taking us for granted.
Savor the moment- these seem to be few and far between. UPDATE: Remember introductory psychology- this is a simple case of the foot-in-the-door technqiue. I think we can expect even bigger favors from these 6 Republicans in the future.

Originally posted to ARingMD2B on Mon May 23, 2005 at 05:11 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  The Nuclear Option (4.00)
    wasn't ever about the nominees, it was about exciting the GOP base. The opposite effect has taken place.

    Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.

    by ARingMD2B on Mon May 23, 2005 at 05:09:09 PM PDT

    •  I wasn't too thrilled at first (4.00)
      but seeing how strongly it's splitting the Republicans, I couldn't be happier.

      Hopefully, this along with Schiavo and the lack of a gay marriage ban will split the GOP in '06 and '08 enough to get us some hard earned gains.

      A gaffe in Washington is when you tell the truth and people act surprised.

      by hotshotxi on Mon May 23, 2005 at 05:39:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I see this diary made the rec. list (4.00)
      I'm about to go to a concert, so I won't be able to update the diary for several hours. Happy posting.

      Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.

      by ARingMD2B on Mon May 23, 2005 at 05:40:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  thanks for picking these quotes up (none)
      Cheered me up a lot. I wasn't feeling totally sold out, but was hoping for a more favorable outcome. If the Freeps are hating it this much, it was probably just about a wash.
    •  thanks for this diary (4.00)
      it's a good foil to mine, and it's quite interesting to flip between the two and read different perspectives.

      visit my new blog!

      it's pretty. and informative. it's pretty informative.

      by Georgia Logothetis on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:06:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I read this one first (none)
        and now going to rec yours.  I like many was ambivalent to slightly disappointed in the outcome, seemed like just a delay of the inevitable.  But the spin they aren't calling spin on MSNBC coupled with these quotes in this diary, well, alright then.  I'm back to glass is half full.

        Now, for some reality from georgia10..:-)

        Westley: "Truly, you have a dizzying intellect." Vizzini: "Wait til I get going!"

        by Revel on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:25:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  And? (4.00)
      How does this outcome leave the GOP base unrallied? They've been told they can't get everything they want, and when they're told that, they get mighty angry.

      My guess is that this will simply motivate them to redouble their efforts and that next time they'll be even more organized.

      Heck, the mere fact that there will be a "next time" shows how fleeting this "victory" you claim we have actually is.

      And mark my words: the Republicans to suffer won't be Frist and Dobson. It'll be the moderates. The wingnuts are gunning for them now. And if they succeed, we're fucked.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

      by eugene on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:17:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  They *are* rallied (4.00)
        ...but against each other.  The extremists now go on the warpath against the moderates.  The moderates defend themselves by attacking back.  Goodbye, lockstep GOP, hello democracy!
        •  Primary fights (none)
          I'm hoping the New England Repubs field some knuckle-draggers in the Primaries against Chafee and  Snowe, wreck their party and get us a shot at those two seats. I think Santorum will get beat in '06 so maybe we just increased out take on Senate seats.

          I think this helped Nelson in Nebraska, which I like -- not Nelson, but that the seat has a fighting chance to stay Dem.


      •  Extremists (4.00)
        If the Republicans lose their moderates, they will never control any branch ever again. So I say let them cannibalize their moderates.
        •  Of course that's what (none)
          a lot of conservatives say about the Dems, too, which is why they say Dean is bad for the party. I still like Dean as DNC chair and like how he is trying to get the DLCers to be not so GOP-lite. It remains to be seen, though, which party will lose (or gain) more by leaning on its moderates.
          •  True - Dean is a moderate, tho (none)
            in terms of policy. So he's likely to foster moderates who can win as candidates.

            The only thing that makes Dean seem extremist to Repubs is that he has a spine, uses it and doesn't back down...

            I really, really like what's going on with the Dems. I would have liked for not one single prejected nominee be nominated - but the GOP took a beating in the polls for weeks, Frist is foiled, this smokescreen for now is done, and on to - Social Security! Where the more the public hears about the plan, the less they like it.

            God bless Dean, Reid, Boxer, et al.

            "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

            by jbeach on Tue May 24, 2005 at 09:35:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Agreed (none)
              We can't succumb to using the right's definition of what a "left-wing extremist" is --- I mean, what they don't get is that 'liberal' and 'extremist' are not the same thing.  I mean, really.  We need to be putting some concerted effort into informing people how mainstream the Democratic party is and how far to the right the Republican theo/neocon leadership has taken theirs.

              Dean is not extreme.  He's just very committed to his principles.

              War is NOT a preventative measure.

              by demandcaring on Tue May 24, 2005 at 10:44:46 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Think about this (none)
        It was the Dems all along who said they were defending the Senate. The moderate Repubs crossed over to help them. That means the Dems were right from the beginning and the Repubs who kept calling it a "constitutional option" were dead wrong.
        •  Remember this... (none)
          ...the Democrats did NOT promise NEVER to filibuster Bush's appeals or SCOTUS nominees.

          They simply promised not to filbuster the nominations EXCEPT in cases of "extraordinary" circumstances.  So they left themselves an out, AND avoided the nuclear option.

          Sounds good to me!

          •  Do you really think... (none)
            ... that the Republicans will ever agree that something is "extraodinary"? This pisses off the freepers and someone like Dobson, but what did we really get? The three worst nominees that were held up will get put through. In the future, these three will become the "baseline." Tough to think of nominees that would be further right, although I suppose it could happen. IE, pretty much any right wing judge is game. And we have a filibuster right that we can't ever use, because the other side would never recognize "extraordinary" and would instantly launch the nuclear option if we tried to use it.

            And we caved in on principle when we were on the side of right (and the country agreed). Doesn't sound quite so good to me, but we'll see how it plays out. IMHO, we missed a real opportunity here.

            •  without this compromise (none)
              Janice Rogers Brown would be headed for the Supreme Court. That isn't going to happen now and that is a big deal.

              Moreover, pay attention to the language in the deal that emphasizes the advise in advise and consent. This is a strong signal from these repubs that bush should consult prior to a nomination. In their press conference, the compromisers said that they would be talking with each other, especially if the Dems thought there were "extraordinary" circumstances.

              As a result of that, if bush were to nominate a Brown or Owen or Pryor, without consulting, I think you can expect several of these repubs to be mighty irritated.

              They've all worked their ass off for this compromise. They didn't do it for it to mean nothing. And bush can violate it by not consulting with both repubs and Dems.

              This administration will give you plenty of reason to be dispirited and angry. Let yourself enjoy a moment when we stopped their radical agenda. Because, no matter what you think, that is what has happened.  

              We need not stride resolutely towards catastrophe, merely because those are the marching orders. -- Noam Chomsky

              by kainah on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:46:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Extraordinary (4.00)
              Here's the thing. Wargame it out. Wingnut X is nominated for the Supreme Court. All we need is 41 Senators to fillibuster him/her. So the Rethugs cry "this isn't an "extraordinary" case!" But if they make that claim, we have them right where we want them.

              "Oh yeah?" We respond: "what about [insert stubstantive causes for outrage]!" The MSM, in reporting the question of whether or not the case is "extraordinary," pretty much HAS to focus on Dem complaints, whether than on process (as in the current media coverage of the nuke option).

              Put differently: if the Rethugs try to go nuclear, they won't be able to do so on the rationale of "every nominee deserves an up or down vote"--they've just conceded that principle. It will have to be on the rationale that Wingnut X is not out of the mainstream. And that is a debate we'd love to have. Bring it on.

              It must be said though that because of this compromise Scalia is the next chief justice. No way that elevating a major sitting justice can be considered "extraordinary." Then again, since it actually would be extraordinary, the argument may be made ...

              •  Aren't SCOTUS nominations always "extra- (none)
                ordinary circumstances" by definition?  You know, not things that happen at all, ordinarily.  Add 'extremist' if Bush doesn't line up his votes before hand -read 'advise'- and puree the Rethugs in the media spin.


          •  These nominations weren't extraordinary? n/t (none)

            vulgus vult decipi -- Phaedrus

            by fritzrth on Tue May 24, 2005 at 05:22:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Heh (none)
          Real fun was at the press conference when the deal was formally announced - one of the moderate Repubs, forget which one, called the destruction of filibusters the "Constitutional option", then said he opposed it because the option was bad for the Senate.

          So, the "Constitutional option" was bad for...the main creation of the Constitution.

          Then he handed over the mike to someone else real quick.

          "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

          by jbeach on Tue May 24, 2005 at 09:38:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I doubt it (4.00)
        And mark my words: the Republicans to suffer won't be Frist and Dobson. It'll be the moderates. The wingnuts are gunning for them now. And if they succeed, we're fucked.

        The GOP won so much by appealing to mostly centrist sympathies.  Less government intrusion.  Less taxes.  Stuff that most people could nod vaguely and agree with.

        After hiding their true agenda under a bushel until they gained an "unstoppable" majority, they then whipped the sheet off their Frankenplatform and revealed an ugly, bolted-together wish list of 1920's-era thinking that completely turned off an overwhelming majority of the electorate.  Starting with Schiavo and Social Security, everything they have done since the '04 election has either directly offended the sensibilities of the middle, or will impact their bottom line in fairly short order (think about the horrible bankruptcy bill -- what a dead, stinking albatross to hang around their necks!).  Without their centrist appeals, all they've got are a bunch of raving crazies whose true aims for the rest of us are apallingly backwards.  Frist and Dobson are fucked, and all they've got to cling to now are each other.

        I keep having to remind people -- these guys are not geniuses.  Right now the GOP is acting like a bunch of fucking babies who want to take their ball and go home.  But there's nowhere to go.  This is our nation, and they have to keep playing this game, and by our rules.  It's time to remind these biatches what democracy means.

        •  Yeah, but... (none)
          Aren't they now appearing like they are not owned by the radical UberReicht Wing?  I dunno...I think most Americans don't care enough to watch except if they see something completely out of bounds...The Rethugs were on the verge of doing just that...I think win lose or Cheney, Dems were going to win this one.  Yes, they would enable a majority vote for SCOTUS nominees...but Bush doesn't have that many left in him...only likely replacing Rehnquist and putting Scalia as Chief.  It would be nice if Scalia had to take over the administration functions, frankly.  Might have to spend less time ranting and more time socializing with the other more moderate judges....

          I think it was a draw, and when you're out numbered 55-45, that is an accomplishment, but I don't think it was a win by any stretch.

          •  It's the Republican Sister Souljah moment (none)
            and as such, a huge, huge win for them with self-described moderate voters.

            "See? We gave the finger to all those crazies that worried you at the start of '05. We're the regular folks, so thanks for voting us back in in '06."

          •  Predicting the next SCOTUS vacancy is tricky (none)
            Stevens (God bless him) is old enough that his every day on the court is a gift, Rehnquist is sure to be quitting at the end of this term, and O'Connor would like to retire.  Several others have had various other health problems.  As unpopular as he is, Bush has nearly four years left to his term.  My guess is that this gives him a fair chance at two or three appointments, before he is a true lame duck.

            Even if O'Connor is no liberal, she is part of the majority keeping abortion rights constitutionally protected.  So a scenario on which Buch has a chance to shift the balance is not all that unlikely.  Keeping the ability to fillibuster when it really matters seems worth a few bad appeals court justices, especially when one of them goes onto the Fifth (I think it is the fifth? The one that includes TX.) Circuit which already thinks it can overrule the Supreme Court.

            When the focus is the Supreme Court and the Right Wing tries to change the rules again, it will be more difficult than now.  So this is a win.

      •  A recent convert's perspective (4.00)
        ...I'm a former GOP moderate who "Migrated" during the Schiavo outrage. Allow me to offer my perspective.

        I always considered myself a "Libertarian" Republican/ Constitutional Fundamentalist, rather than a theocrat. I don't think that my viewpoint was unique, particularly among the more educated/secular Republicans (the poor, South is NOT the "traditional" Republican base (as you well know- I'm not trying to talk down to you)).  Schiavo terrified me because it demonstrated how seperate the "Libertarian-Friendly" Republican rhetoric is from the reality of their practical politics. The "Nuclear Option" is another example of the lengths that the party will go to in order to promote its own adgenda over the traditional rule of law and the protections instilled for minorities (a concern to those of us in the "My Rights Stop at the End of My Fist Camp).

        I think that the "deal" upsets the Theocrats too because, rather than viewing themselves as "Republicans" I think Dobson et. als. smugly believe that they have "bought" the Republican party, and that the Republican Party ought to be able to get them everything they want and deliver it with a smile. Like pouting toddlers, they are going to be FURIOUS that they didn't get this lollipop and looking for someone to blame.

        As others have pointed out, this leave NO ONE in the GOP happy.

        The Republicans who "crossed party lines" will upset their Theocrat base (if they have one- I've only skimmed the list, but it looked more likely to break "Libertarian" than "Theocrat" to me) but they've also taken a lot of ammo away from potential Dem challengers in the future. It's the Republicans who weren't part of the deal who are going to bleed.

        •  welcome over (4.00)
          from one ex-moderate/libertarian republican to another. the republican party has betrayed the ideal of civil and individual liberties, and i hope my party, the democratic party, will continue to stand firm for these fundamental constitutional principles. i would be very happy to see the libertarian wing of the repiublican party win this civil war; i am not confident that they will, but i hope they do. it would be great to get back to having honest political debates again without the threat of theocracy or unrestrained autocracy.

          crimson gates reek with meat and wine/while on the streets, bones of the frozen dead -du fu (712-770)

          by wu ming on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:17:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Welcome (4.00)
          and thanks for your perspective. This really is a win for the United States of America. I hope you see it that way, too.

          Snowe & Collins are enabling the right wing junta

          by Alna Dem on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:18:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  ANOTHER moderate convert? Awww, man. (4.00)
          Oh, okayyy.

          You can play.

          But you have to bring the pie for a week.

          Rage, rage, against the lying of the Right.

          by Maryscott OConnor on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:31:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Welcome (4.00)
          and make yourself comfortable. We believe in individual rights here.

          As long as I count the votes, what are you going to do about it? - William Marcy Tweed

          by sidnora on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:44:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Hididy Ho Convertireno (none)
          Glad to see the libertrain Republicans are waking up to what's going on. Hope to see you around :-)

          Come see the house that Tom Delay built.

          by Goldfish on Mon May 23, 2005 at 10:23:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Good Observation (none)
          The Republicans who "crossed party lines" will upset their Theocrat base (if they have one- I've only skimmed the list, but it looked more likely to break "Libertarian" than "Theocrat" to me) but they've also taken a lot of ammo away from potential Dem challengers in the future. It's the Republicans who weren't part of the deal who are going to bleed.

          Upon hearing the news of the agreement, my first thought was, now I have to pay attention to Mike DeWine and his challenger(s) in the future. If the Ohio Dems can't muster a decent candidate, I'll have to seriously consider whether DeWine deserves support - if a Republican has to hold the seat, I'd rather it be him than any of these other raving theocrats that are taking over Ohio.

          Very astute observation, lexlawgirl. Welcome to the neighborhood.

          •  A Dem in Texas (none)
            I face the same problem in Texas, where the Rethugs are going to win every race for the foreseeable future.  I'm thinking of changing registration simply so I can vote for the lesser of two evils.  

            A good case in point is the coming Governor's race here.  Many establishment Rethugs are putting enormous pressure on Kay Bailey Hutchinson not to challenge Rick Perry for the spot.  Perry's approval ratings are in the 40's and Hutchinson's are high.  Perry has done an abysmal job but that doesn't matter to the establishment.  Just give Perry a pass, screw the people of Texas -- who will elect a dead armadillo if it has (R) by its name.  

            I don't like Hutchinson, but I'm hopeful that she at least would be competent.


        •  Welcome aboard (none)
          We hope to get some sanity back in the branches soon, and then to have some sane, balanced discussions between mutually respecting outlooks, on how to make things work for all our citizens.

          "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

          by jbeach on Tue May 24, 2005 at 09:42:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Agree (4.00)
      Also, anyone who thinks we got screwed, look at it this way: We were 10 Senators behind but came out, at worst, even.  Harry Reid is the man!
      •  Like Barbara, (4.00)
        perhaps we ought to send Reid some token of appreiciation? Or perhaps to the entire Democratic side of the Senate?

        Phillybits "Censoring torture stories doesn't help the troops."

        by Stand Strong on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:03:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Please, please, please (none)
        Stop with the Harry Reid worship. I can't take it. He's doing alright. He is way far away from being "the man." We are 10 senators down in a 50-50 world. But rule changes require 67. Reid was the response to the Bush victory and was designed to be palatable to Bush voters. Well, he may be, but I don't get how it serves the rest of us.

        Now we had to cross our hears and hope-to-die never to fillibuster unless...what? The numbers should have been in our favor. This has been in the offing for months and yet the best we could do was fiddle around in the conference rooms?

        Can you fill in the rest? I'll give you a hundred bucks if you can convince me that this won't turn around and happen all over again with the coming SCOTUS nominees. Rehnquist checked into the hospital today btw. Ironic no? See you at the next nuclear launch in a month or so.

        •  Harry hung tough until seven (none)
          Repub Senators broke ranks with the Radical Right to give us our first victory since about 1998.  Harry is the man!

          ownership society - you are on your own

          by Sam I Am on Mon May 23, 2005 at 08:17:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  We were down ten votes (none)
          And at worst broke even. More over, we now have a really big club to whack any Republican backstabbers if they try to renege on this deal. You seem to miss just how bad a position Frist and his brinksmen are now in. I don't think this is over, but we won round one, and are in the position of strength going into round two.

          At every turn in this debate Reid out maneuvered Frist, Hell, he ran circles around him. It got so bad that the right-wing blogs started openly complaining about it. And this isn't the only thing he's done. Making sure Bush's social scrutiny scheme was DOA was also something he played no small part in. And let's not forget that bit of political juitsu he played on the Senate Republicans during the Shrivo mess.

          Don't tell me isn't doing a good job, and don't tell me this isn't a victory when it most clearly is. Frankly, I'm not sure would you would consider a victory at this point.

          Come see the house that Tom Delay built.

          by Goldfish on Mon May 23, 2005 at 10:32:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ack! (none)
            The title of my comment should read "We were six votes down"

            I saw that thing at the top of your post about being ten senators down (I'm not sure what you mean by that, we have 44+ Jeffords), and it got subliminally put into my subject line.

            Come see the house that Tom Delay built.

            by Goldfish on Mon May 23, 2005 at 10:34:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Agree - we need to win the spin now (none)
      I think that if we can spin it that we won, then it will look like we won.  Right now it's hard to tell.  But the best thing for us is if the Republican party craters by splintering.  I had hoped that the moderates would split off but the far right could do the same thing.  My wife the (once) government major said that this is what has happened in American history, parties have split (see Teddy Roosevelt) when something like this has happened.

      We'll see.


      Organizing my thoughts about how to win from 2005 forward -

      by FredFred on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:52:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Fox is starting the spin from the other side (none)
        I'm watching my local Fox affiliate; they're spinning this as something "liberals are not happy about".  No mention of the Freeper/Theocrat meltdown.

        I'm NOT happy about Owens, Brown and Pryor getting through.  But realistically, the worst damage in this whole affair has been inflicted on the GOP.  They put everything on the line, both for their hardline base and for their image in general.  The Democrats always looked like they were representing the moderate position on this issue.  When you take an absolute position, drawing a line in the sand, you'd better make sure you hold it.

        From all appearances, the GOP just blinked.  They represent extremists, and the extremists lost.  No wonder Fox is working so hard to spin it as a loss for "liberals".

        •  I caught some of that quick spin last night (none)
          Not sure what the right tack to take with it is. It's a huge defeat for the GOP, and a maintaining of power for the Dems. Fox et al will probably now spin, spin, spin this as a sign of the weakening of the Democratic party, because the Dems didn't get everything they said they wanted - 3 judges are now getting voted on and probably confirmed.

          Is this worth worrying about, in terms of image for the Dems, do you think? Or will voters see through it? Or will voters simply not care, and think of something else as soon as we get to it, like Social Security?

          "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

          by jbeach on Tue May 24, 2005 at 09:47:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  One can only hope, Fred....... (none)
        Teddy Roosevelt's "Bull Moose" split from the mainline Republicans in 1912 was actually as much of a personality-cult thing as an ideological schism - although technically TR did run on the "Progressive Party" platform - and the current sorry lot of GOP hopefuls come (thank God) WAY short of anything like Teddy R. It's hard to see any politician far enough to the Right to attract support from the clownshow Freeper types quoted above being more than, at best a fringe-vote spoiler in a few dark corners of the reddest States.
        Fine, let 'em go start their own party: it will leave the field open to real humans for a change.
    •  I don't agree (4.00)
      I think that the FREEPERS are not happy unless they totally win, which they have been doing a lot of for quite a while now.  They got their president, their war, their media, and they got away with a lot of shit, despite our doing the best we could to make the shit stick to them.  

      They are only upset because they didn't totally get their way.  That doesn't make us winners.  I consider all of these nominees to be the few that the Democrats wouldn't accept.  By giving up on most of them, and letting them be appointed, Priscilla Owen for instance, we have NOT won.  

      I don't consider it winning just because the most extreme right side isn't happy.  

    •  Kinda caught me by surprise... (4.00)
      Underneath the chestnut tree; The Republicans sold you, and the GOP sold me

      that they know Orwell's work well enough to reference it, but not well enough to recognize when they're living in and supporting it.

    •  If there ever was a time for McCain to take over.. (none)
      Now, it is.  <yoda>


  •  asdf (4.00)
    a perfect mirror to dems reaction... even though they got the better deal

    May the Schwartz be with you!

    by FLS on Mon May 23, 2005 at 05:12:03 PM PDT

  •  Even Kossaks are complaining? (4.00)
    I was a bit surprised myself.  This was without a doubt the fight over the supreme court and we got what we wanted.  Not only that, the 2008 campaign has launched that threatens to split the republicans into two minority parties.  McCain vs. Frist.

    I don't see any shame at all in the compromise for Dems.  Frist on the other hand will face holy hell for this.  I say it was a big win just to not lose.  And long term, we win even more by preserving the integrity of the senate and avoiding backlash over a stalled senate.

    When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. -Martin Luther King Jr.

    by Closet VB Coder on Mon May 23, 2005 at 05:14:47 PM PDT

    •  Frist didn't compromise (4.00)
      He was thrown over a barrel and shown a broom
    •  I'm not unhappy they're pissed, but (4.00)
      please explain to me how we got what we wanted??

      Owen, Pryor, and Brown go for floor votes, and the Dems won't filibuster except in extreme cases. Let me know, please, if there's more I'm not sure of.

      But also, please, let me know what it means to be MORE EXTREME than these three?

      Well, if the mark of a good compromise is that no one is happy, looks like this one is spot on.

      •  Rule changes are off the table (none)
        and only individual senators can decide for themselves what is an extreme case.    
      •  Stage 2 (4.00)
        is now to bring to light all of the crazy crazy things these three have said or ruled.

        Even if they pass, the American people will know how badly they (and Bush) suck.

      •  I have to agree with stitchmd. (none)
        Maybe I just don't understand... but how is this compromise good for us? I want to be happy about this, but I just can't see it.

        Basically, even though we have the constitution on our side, we have just agreed to only use filibusters "in extreme circumstances." This "extreme circumstances" language reminds me of language stating approvals are "not to be unreasonably withheld" in my company's contracts... which means, if we ask, there better be a damn good & completely over-the-top extreme reason why it's not approved, or it's getting approved. So, now we've just said that we'll only use our constitutional filibuster in said circumstances. Furthermore, we've lost the opportunity to use it for Bush's three judges, one of which was just voted the most unacceptable judge on the Texas Supreme Court by the Houston bar association. And... I guarantee that if we ever DO try to use it in the future, the Repugs will immediately start whining and going all shrill.

        The reports I kept hearing were that they didn't have the votes. Why, then, did we cave?

        "There are some bad people on the right." - Morrissey

        by modchick65 on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:30:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  We won (none)
          because the "nuclear" option is off the table for the 109th congress and individual senators get to define for themselves what are extreme circumstances.

          "...and walked off to look for America"

          by gillmp on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:40:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  i think it depends on what happens next (none)
          there's no guarantee they'll all pass and up and down vote. . . and if they do, the GOP is responsible for every take-the-injured-off-life-support-so-the-corporation-can-keep-its -profits decision they make
      •  Agreed, those three are extreme, (4.00)
        so does this mean is one of them gets an SC nomination, he/she is in like Flynn?

        Owen, in particular, grates -- an obscure oil lawyer and Rove pawn who essentially killed a terribly injured black kid to save a corporation some money (among other judicial atrocities).

        Lindsey Graham just told Chris Matthews that one of the nominees cleared for a floor vote may not get a majority. I hope it's that smug bitch killer Owen.

        But if the corporate media play this as a big defeat for Bush, Frist and Dobson, I suppose it's not all bad.

        The Republicans want to cut YOUR Social Security benefits.

        by devtob on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:31:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I hope it's Brown (none)
          Josh Marshall posted this message from a Texas lawyer a few days ago. The gist of it is that the 5th circuit court, to which Owen has been nominated, is so bad already that she wouldn't swing the balance. On the other hand, the DC circuit is more evenly divided, so putting Brown on there would be quite dangerous.

          I don't think the Repugs would want to be seen voting down a black woman, but I also can't see them voting down Owen. Maybe Pryor's the unlucky one?

          •  Brown is right off the map (4.00)
            I thought it was significant that in Boxer's speech, she chose to focus on Brown rather than Owen; obviously in part because she's from California, but also, I think, because Brown's looney tune record has not been publicized as widely as Owen's, and on the surface of it, she sounds even nuttier.

            I particularly loved the decision in which she found in favor of a business' right to sell cigarettes to children. What's next on her list, the right to sell poisoned apple pie and stick a hatchet in one's mother's back?

            Owen comes across much more as a corporate tool, IMO - something that's not particularly unattractive to a wide swath of Repugs (all right, all right, so she let that kid on a respirator die.....).

            But you may be right about Pryor, since he appears to be the most ideologically expendable.

            As long as I count the votes, what are you going to do about it? - William Marcy Tweed

            by sidnora on Mon May 23, 2005 at 08:04:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  "Look at the board" (4.00)
        said the chessmaster to the student in Searching for Bobby Fischer.

        It's a big big game where strategy is incredibly important.

        The rule change is gone. These folk may not get voted through. The Dems played this move well. Political capital got spent.

        Frist just had his legs knocked out from under him by his own party. That's gotta hurt.

        •  I honestly don't (none)
          think they will all survive the up or down vote.  I think that will add ultimate insult to injury.

          When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. -Martin Luther King Jr.

          by Closet VB Coder on Mon May 23, 2005 at 08:01:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I'm with you (4.00)
      The Dems. got the compromise they offered up in the first place and got an even better compromise than the one they were willing to go with as late as last week.  When I was watching C-SPAN, I thought, "This is good for them!".  That thought was immediately followed by, "Great, now there'll be a lot of whining and name-calling on dKos."  

      And just watching Frist sit there in a pile of his own shit trying to mask the smell with a plug-in was beautiful.  Even with McConnell trying to spray the air, nothing helped.  Asswipes.  Reid & Durbin rocked and Boxers speech (which just ended) was fucking brilliant.  

    •  We did not get what we wanted. (4.00)
      They got what they wanted.  We "won" in sense that they agreed not to dismantle our government as long as long as we agree to give them whatever they want. To channel a famous Republican, it's like Adolf Hitler bargaining to keep Paris as long as he made no more demands.  Just give me free reign with the Judicial branch, and I won't cripple the Legislative.  For now.

        It's not as bad as it could've been, but it's a Pyrrhic victory at best.  It's been a long, painful 5 years and the end is not in sight; you'll have to forgive those of us aren't dancing in the streets just yet.

    •  My sentiments exactly. (none)
      ...a big win just to not lose.
      •  I agree! This deal is not good for America! (none)
        Where is the outrage that 7 Dems and 7 Reps could negotiate away, behind closed doors, an important check and balance on the tyranny of the majority. If our Founding Fathers had followed this path and compromised with the British to give away the rights of the colonies to self-determination of local issues, then there would have been no "United States of America."

        This issue was not solely about which judges would get a vote on the Senate floor, but more importantly, whether the executive branch, through its majority status in the Senate, could effectively neuter or eliminate the last arrow in the quiver of the minority to temper the power of the majority. This was a power struggle between the executive branch and the Senate. To call this power grab a Constitutional Crisis is not an overstatement of the importance or the gravity of the situation.

        As a centrist, I feel that I have been ill-served by both parties.  And that little cabal that brokered the compromise .. I say to them .. "how dare you ... who made you the arbiter of which rights the minority shall have and under which circumstances they may exercise them"? Is this not arrogance of power? This deal is an affront to democracy. It is an abomination of the institution of the Senate.

        If some of these Republicans were so loathe to have to vote against their party on this issue and in favor of protecting the institution in which they serve and the democratic checks and balances on which this country depends, then they should not be Senators.

        This deal is un-American and it is antidemocratic. And yes, I am OUTRAGED at this compromise.

  •  Big slap to the power brokers (4.00)
      The Senate moved to act for itself as an institution.

      This was a big slap to the White House and to the alleged power brokers like Dobson.

      The wingnuts are gonna go ballistic for a while but they will show their asses all the way down the line: they don't give a damn about the country, the Constitution or the basic institutions of this government. And when they show it, slap that too.

  •  Thanks (4.00)
    For sorting thru the garbage for the rest of us.  Good point.

    A vote for Bush is a vote for Osama.

    by Alan S on Mon May 23, 2005 at 05:16:14 PM PDT

  •  That's cool, I guess. (4.00)
    Just knowing there are some miserable Republicans out there makes me feel a LITTLE bit better.  Maybe if we all jump up and down and claim victory, the media will think we actually won...
  •  We? (none)
    I tihnk a hand full of centrist Dems and moderately conservative GOPers won a little power game and embarrassed their leaders. Unless 'we' means centrists who cave to the Bush agenda, I can't agree that 'we' won.
    •  America Won (4.00)
      in the end..that's what this fight had escalated into...whether Congress would survive intact.  We had to compromise on the Judges a little, we retained the right to filibuster...oooohhh yeah, We won.
    •  Status quo for Dems, GOP looks *punked* (none)
      Dems in the Senate retained their rights. Yes, 3 nominees who stink will now be voted on. And, incidentally, their stinky records will now be aired, so GOP will be on record as approving them.

      All the while, GOP polls in general and in Congress in particular are going through the floor; the Fristian Soldiers and McCainites are split asunder; Dobson is weakened; and this opening gambit to send a loony to the SCOTUS has been shut down.

      It's not death of the vampire, but we have a fix on where he lives, he is scuttling to his lair and might not make it before dawn.

      "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

      by jbeach on Tue May 24, 2005 at 09:52:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Gonna Have to Trust Reid (4.00)

    I have mixed feelings -- I wanted the nuclear option to be voted on, and to lose -- but on this I have to say Harry Reid leads the Dems in the Senate, he's shrewd and (unlike Daschle!) touch, and he made the call.

    I admit to some disappointment, and I gravely mistrust the Repugs but I have to trust Harry Reid this time around.  I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt.

    I would say that being on the shit end of a 45-55 split, the Dems came out of this one pretty good.

    Frist is such a piece of shit -- he went to the Senate, really, to aggrandize his family's HMO wealth -- and now everybody can see what a spineless, unprincipled, bought and paid for piece of shit he really is.  He ain't conservative, he's just a ho.

    Yo, Dr. Frist, I think your fundie friends are gonna do with you what you used to do to the little kittens.  What goes around, comes around, motherfucker.

    "I'm happy tonight. I'm not fearing any man." (Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., 4/3/1968).

    by proudtinfoilhat on Mon May 23, 2005 at 05:35:51 PM PDT

    •  I am very disappointed (none)
      but maybe I just lack faith in Harry.  So far he has done very, very well, so I think I will stay quiet (after my intial outburst on another thread) and see what comes of this.

      Harry Reid has been excellent thus far.  He made this call for a reason.  I'm going to trust him.

      •  I sorta am too.... (none)
        I kinda wanted to push 'em to the mat because I didn't think the moderates could really stomach Dobson and the rest of the Rethuglican 5th column.

        But can you imagine Daschle pulling something like this off? I really respect Reid.

    •  I was watching... (none)
      Chris Matthews, and he painted the whole thing as "the Senate members are going to trust each other to do what's right." Part of the reason I have such a hard time seeing how this is good is the fact that I can't believe the Dems would be so gullible as to agree to anything that is founded on them trusting Frist.

      "There are some bad people on the right." - Morrissey

      by modchick65 on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:34:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "extraordinary circumstances" (none)
        ...the Democratic Senators reserved the right to filibuster Bush's judicial nominees in "extraordinary circumstances" -- and each individual Senator is allowed to decide what those circumstances are.
        •  I'm worried (none)
          that we will not get 41 Dems to filibuster the next Clarence Thomas clone whom Bush will appoint to the Supreme Court.

          But on balance I'm glad we made this deal, because sadly the so-called GOP moderates didn't have the guts to just do the right thing, and I'd rather have this deal than lose a nuclear option vote 51-49.

          •  That's the thing (none)
            Besides, now, instead of trying to imitate the winners of the Colicky Baby Contest, we need to put pressure on the GOP Senators to vote down the three bad 'uns when they hit the Senate floor.

            Don't forget, Trent Lott's amenable to persuasion.  He's wanted to blacken Frist's and Rove's eyes ever Rove moved to zap Lott as Majority Leader and replace him with Catkiller.

      •  they're not trusting Frist (none)
        Frist would never have agreed to this deal. They are trusting the moderates who signed the deal.

        We need not stride resolutely towards catastrophe, merely because those are the marching orders. -- Noam Chomsky

        by kainah on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:52:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Trust dosen't factor into it (none)
        I don't trust Frist, I don't think any of the Dem senators who crafted this deal trust Frist. But this deal makes it very hard for him to pull the trigger, and even harder for the moderates to go along with him if he does. That's the real victory here.

        This deal isn't based on trust, it's based on the fact we can destory any Republican who breaks it

        Come see the house that Tom Delay built.

        by Goldfish on Mon May 23, 2005 at 11:04:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  At least they just hafta trust mod GOP, not Frist (none)
        The mod GOP will screw themselves with the voters if they now vote yes for loonies.

        They still could, mind you, but it's less likely. Their best interests are in doing what they just did - compromise - and they'll look especially stupid if they undermine their own compromise.

        I'm wondering if we might be seeing the birth of a new cross-party caucus here. They'll have a lot of power to swing, if so.

        "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

        by jbeach on Tue May 24, 2005 at 09:56:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    The only deal is the one the crats got. Everything they wanted. We got nothing.

    Nothing, except for 95 percent of Bush's judicial nominees. And an up/down vote on most of the others.

    Are all the Freepers such a bunch of whiny cry-babies?

    Boo-hoo-hoo! Mean Democwats!

    America: It's a good IDEA for a country ...

    by Tony Seybert on Mon May 23, 2005 at 05:39:37 PM PDT

  •  Another freeper comment I enjoyed: (none)

    "To: All

    "My deer Freepers, I am so angry right now, I can hardly see straight, so I will do the smart thing and wait a couple of days until the dust settles a bit. I can't help to think that you, me, all of us deserve what we get... yes, we must not be so great after all if we get these spineless, gutless, people.

    "Right now this looks like a total loss for me, because we lost the PRINCIPLE... and also found out we have Reps, w/o principles. I also don't think Frits is completely innocent, along with many other of the Rep side.... they knew what was going on, and they simply wanted to save face. But just for starters, I will not give one more penny to the GOP, or any Republican for that matter. I will give that money to organizations that go after those 7 SOBs.

    "So let's not dispair, this should give us the motivation to keep fighting. We are the religious right and we must keep fighting for this country, because we don't, it will go to hell itself. We have the power and the duty to keep fighting and we will win."

    Sounds good to me.

    We're just getting started.

    by jem6x on Mon May 23, 2005 at 05:47:13 PM PDT

  •  Think a few chess moves ahead . . . (none)
    We gave them a handful of judges and they gave the Dems . . . what?  They promised not to bulldoze the place . . .  unless they get it in their little pinheads that they (or their Christian Pit Bosses) think they really, really want something badly enough to bulldoze the dems again.

    Then what?  We threaten to shut down the place again?

    They claim that they are men of conviction, men who put Christian values ahead of petty party agreements.  Doing the business of every patriotic , God-fearing American.

    How do they lose?  Do you really think that the reactionaries at FreeRepublic are going to turn away from the republican party?  Turn to what?  A bunch of libruls?

    Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.-- Blaise Pascal

    by Pandemoniac on Mon May 23, 2005 at 05:49:00 PM PDT

    •  Seriously... (none)
      Look at the board. This was a hit to the mandate of spending political capital.

      The move is much further down the road.

    •  Several of them said it straight out (4.00)
      They're just gonna stop voting.  That in itself is positive for us.

      Every time I visit FReeperville, I find myself laughing - "I am so happy you guys are this STUPID!"

      •  they'll forget about this in 18 months (none)
        I remember the spring of 2003, when many of my fellow Iowa Democrats said they could never, never support any presidential candidate who voted for the Iraq War resolution. On caucus night in January 2004, guess what? A lot of them went for Kerry or Edwards.

        The freepers are mad now, but wait till the right-wing hate machine reminds them of how evil Dems are for all of 2006. They will get in line to vote GOP again, you can count on that.

    •  they will simply (none)
      not vote.
    •  If I were a Wingnut ... (none)
      I'd think the Constitution Party looked pretty good about now.
      •  I've thought the same thing (4.00)
        Everything these batshit insane wingnuts want is found in the Constitution Party-

        School Prayer
        All abortion illegal
        "Fortress America" border security
        Elimination of numerous Federal departments (education, HUD, Vet Affairs, Interior, EPA, etc.)
        10 commandments in every courtroom

        the list goes on and on.  Maybe like how the Greens have sucked off alot of the leftmost fringe (and some not so fringy) of the Democratic Party, we can hope the same will be true with the GOP and their wingiest wingnuts going to the Constitution party.

        Roy Moore in '08!

        Big Media is hated by the GOP because they sometimes tell the truth. We should hate Big Media for the other 97 percent of the time when they don't.

        by Ugluks Flea on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:58:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  EXCEPT (none)
          Their anti-war isolationist stance, of course. Which goes hand-in-hand with their immigrant-hating. Apparently the freepers aren't familiar with prinicpled bigotry, and certainly can't get enough dead brown folk (in the Mideast and not here, of course).
    •  but surely (4.00)
      you haven't failed to notice the huge CHASM opening up within the GOP? It's gonna be the far-right against the moderates now. Get your popcorn and pull up a chair. We'll be in to sweep up when it's over.

      "We've got to start making some friends on this planet" John Kerry

      by GinnyfromWI on Mon May 23, 2005 at 09:15:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly. (none)
        Terri Schiavo, bless her (Terri, whereever you are, know that your husband's fifteen years of suffering at the hands of wingnuts was not in vain), ripped off the thin veneer that covered that chasm.  

        One of our newer Kossacks is a former GOPer who quit the party over the Theocrats and their takeover of the GOP, a takeover which led to Tom DeLay's disgracefully using a dead woman's body as a shield.

        The wingnuts don't know when to quit.  They've totally lost it.

    •  It's funny you would say Chess (none)
      I like Chess, I play a lot of Chess thanks to Yahoo, and I can tell you this: there are times
      in Chess when it can all come down to a supposedly even trade.

      Yes, it seems like it wasn't the best move to make, agreeing to have votes on a couple of the bad judges in exchange for taking the nuclear option of the table. But that means that we'll still have fewer of these creeps around then if we'd lost the nuclear showdown. And more importantly, we'll still have the filibuster later on, when we really need it.

      And most importantly, we've strengthen our position relative to our opponent. A lot of people don't realize how effective trading for tactical position can be.  It is going to be very hard for Frist to bring up the nuclear option again, and it's going to be almost impossible for the Senators who made this deal to support him unscathed.

      That right there is the kind of move that wins Chess games.

      Come see the house that Tom Delay built.

      by Goldfish on Mon May 23, 2005 at 11:14:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Nobody is ever going to (4.00)
    get 100% of what they want when you compromise.  

    Bottom line:

    The filibuster remains an option and Frist/Dobson have been cut off at the knees.

    •  Huh? (4.00)
      You say:

      "and Frist/Dobson have been cut off at the knees."

      How, exactly?

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

      by eugene on Mon May 23, 2005 at 05:51:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  In an obvious manner. (none)
        It's not his/her problem if you can't see it.
        •  Sure it is (4.00)
          We still live in a reality-based community where people have to explain their arguments if they are to be taken seriously.

          If it's obvious, then explain it to me. If you can't do that, then I have every right to believe you have no clue what you're talking about.

          I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

          by eugene on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:11:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Here's why (4.00)
            Frist wanted to get this done when fewer people (ie only the political junkies) were paying attention.  It will be a LOT harder to pull the nuclear option on a Supreme Court nominee without getting a LOT of public backlash against the Reps (and from looking at the latest poll, that's the last thing they need).  So, now the filibuster remains, and it will likely not become an issue until there is a vacancy on the Supreme Court.  Frist wanted to trigger the nuclear option now so that it would have blown over by the time there was an opening on the Supreme Court, and Bush could push through any nominee he wanted for that post with only 51 votes.
            •  Here's why I think that misses the point (none)
              When Dems do use the filibuster again, what's to stop the Republicans from saying they promised to only use it in "extreme" circumstances and now they are going back on their word? It doesn't even have to be true, so long as some Dems have apparently now used this language and Fox is willing to serve as a happy tool to relay the message to the masses.

              Or, even if this tactic isn't used, the Republicans still get to complain about obstructionist democrats. Yes, their base is upset with Republican leadership in the senate right now, but this same base agrees that the Democrats are obstructing, unfairly, their holy warrior judges. It doesn't take any new convincing in 6 months to gripe about Democrats blocking the way. The claim will be that we are "abusing" our right to filibuster, which the Republicans so graciously allowed us to retain. Their magnanimity rewarded with our ungraciousness.

              Wanna bet that's what happens? And when it does, Repubs will be able to use the filibuster as a club against us and we'll use their attempted dismantling of it against them, making it a wash in the long-run.

              We, on the other hand, would have made the filibuster into a huge club against them if they had trashed 200 years of tradition for the sake of a few radical judges.

              I don't think we lost, I just think we missed an opportunity to win big. We would have been sacrificing a pawn to get the queen.

              the spirit is restored by wounding

              by jd in nyc on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:28:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  extreme (4.00)
                When Dems do use the filibuster again, what's to stop the Republicans from saying they promised to only use it in "extreme" circumstances and now they are going back on their word? It doesn't even have to be true, so long as some Dems have apparently now used this language and Fox is willing to serve as a happy tool to relay the message to the masses.

                What's the problem with that? Rhetorically, you just start saying "extreme circumstances" as much as you can, and "extremist judges", and then "extreme", "extreme", "extreme", "extreme", "extreme", ...

                It's your* new favourite "frame" - one that seems to be getting traction - and this deal just set you up to use it a whole lot more. Doesn't seem like too much of a problem to me.

                * the royal 'you', by which I mean american democrats.

                I have a delay pedal and I'm not afraid to use it.

                by droneboy on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:56:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  framing problems (none)
                  For a number of reasons, Democrats are not at all in a good position to be constructing frames out of thin air in which to control the debate. We can't just keep repeating something like the Republicans do and expect it to stick. We need to rely on the good rhetorical terrain, like that provided by doing away with two centuries of American political tradition just for the sake of a temporary advantage in getting a few judges through.

                  The reasons we can't do what Republicans do are that (1) our spin-meisters are mostly still not as good as the Republican ones, although I think Reid and Dean are making progress.
                  (2) There are conscious and unconscious allegiances held by American media (by which I mean the lowbrow media of evening news, CNN, Fox, and most daily papers) which make them tend to dismiss our spin points and parrot theirs as fact. If it looks like spin on our side, it gets called such in cynical terms almost universally. If it looks like spin on their side, a large majority of the reports will use it to set the stage for discussion, which if we're lucky an acute interviewee or talking head will then challenge.
                  There is almost never the sneer of cynicism in reports from the "objective" American media when mentioning Republican spin, but this quite frequently happens with Democratic spin.

                  the spirit is restored by wounding

                  by jd in nyc on Mon May 23, 2005 at 09:15:55 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  probably not in terms of substance (3.83)
            the repubs didn't lose that much. But when did substance ever matter to this rotten country?

            They lost in terms of expectations, and in terms of looking foolish. They overreached, and in not getting what their putrid grubby mouths were gobbling for, they now look weaker.

            Looking weaker often means becoming weaker. Less confidence. More second guessing. Less assertiveness. This is a strategic opening for the dems to plant a flag and develop their own powerpolitics. But you're right, in terms of substance, we didn't get that much.

            But I don't care: Harry Reid is our savior, imho.

            All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

            by SeanF on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:28:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The Wingies WANTED this (4.00)
              They really, really wanted it.

              You have no idea how hard they've been pushing Frist not to even THINK of cutting a deal over this.  Hell, they've been attacking Trent-Friggin-LOTT over this -- and seriously pissing him off in the process!

              In fact, I see Trent Lott's fine hand in this arrangement.  He's a loyal Republican, all right -- but he's also a believer in the idea that the Senate should not be an adjunct of the Executive Branch.  

              Remember, Rove gleefully went along with forcing Lott out of his Majority Leader job over the Thurmond flap because it meant that Rove could then move a BushCo puppet, Bill Frist, into the job.  Lott, I suspect, has been waiting patiently for the right time to remind Rove that he's not fucking Augustus Caesar.  This is apparently it.

      •  Wounded (none)
        Maybe not cut off like the knight in Monty Python. But wounded anyway.

        Frist especially....I hope.

      •  The moderates embarassed the hell out of them (none)
        I dont know if I can show my face if I am Frist. I dont have cable, but even the freepers and others have mentioned that Frist looks awful and Reid is looking great(I mean, literally the way they look on TV). John McCain said, "Today the country and the senate won." How must Frist feel hearing that? The moderates said, "Damnit, we arent going to let you and Bush and the fundies take over just cuz you want to be president." And the religious right base has been deflated. That is the only reason these people do anything: to excite their base, like they did with Schiavo. It backfired, big time.

        Between Bush's commencement speech and his wife's Mid-East visit, the Bush family pissed off Christians, Jews and Muslims this weekend. -Randi Rhodes.

        by jj32 on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:43:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Eugene..... (none)
        "cut off at the knees"  might have been a small exaggeration ;)

        But wounded, Frist is- and I think severely.  

        •  Frist is toast (none)
          Dobson and Company told him straight up:  Either ram through the Nuclear Option, or you can forget about getting any money or scut workers from us for your 2008 presidential campaign.

          Well, guess what.  He didn't ram it through.  So he's SOL.

          •  And he's even more toast w/o Dobson (none)
            'Cause any and all moderates can now see Frist as both a) in the pocket of right-wing nutbags and b) weak.

            Dobson may have no choice but to continue to back Frist, as Dobson's most willing still-available puppet. But Dobson's supporters hearts will be less in it - and even if Frist made it to Pres nomination in '08, there's absolutely no way he'd win in a campaign now. No moderate conservative, let alone Libertarian, will go near him...

            "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

            by jbeach on Tue May 24, 2005 at 10:05:51 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Becuase now (none)
        If First trys to pull the trigger, he will instantly be seen as an extremist nutjob who blew off a bi-partisan deal in favor of following an extremist agenda a majority of Americans oppose. It will be incredibly damaging for moderates to support him, and it will allow us to easily paint the Republican party as the party of cheats and deal breakers who are not to be trusted.

        That's why they're cut off at the knees.

        Come see the house that Tom Delay built.

        by Goldfish on Mon May 23, 2005 at 11:20:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Why they're whining (4.00)
    They're like the kid who gets a cookie after dinner and throws a temper tantrum because mom wouldn't let him eat the whole box of them.

    Yet we are like the kids who are threatened for their lunch money, take it to the school principal, and are told that if the bully promises not to beat us up or demand it again, then this one time they can indeed have the lunch money.

    That's why this diary is flawed - Freepers are coming at this from a totally different perspective. They got part of what they wanted but won't be satisfied without total victory. Whereas we wanted to defend our rights, and were given a half-assed deal that does nothing to prevent our rights from being trampled upon again.

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

    by eugene on Mon May 23, 2005 at 05:50:41 PM PDT

    •  Nicely said (4.00)
      This very succinctly sums up my position too, eugene.

      We folks around here are so hungry for something to call "success" that these dry crumbs seem tasty.

      My morale is so low at this point that I'm not sure what Dems can possibly do to buck me up.  Everything that matters to me is getting steamrollered into smithereens, and I'm being told that I should be grateful because the driver didn't reverse the truck and get out and piss on the fragments.


    •  I don't think so.... (none)
      Sounds to me like the Dems have an assurance from enough Repugs that there will not be another fight for the life of the filibuster for a long while.

      This, in itself, is a victory.

      I actually was ready for the fight.  But with the Supreme choice coming up, this really is a turn out which benefits us.

      Plus, it really does weaken Frist (in my book).  That is icing to me.

      The Moral Majority - all those Christian conservatives left on Earth AFTER the Rapture....

      by sp0t on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:32:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  We do have a lot of great sound bites (none)
      to use against them for re-election. Think of the speeches that came out about this - and how stupid some of them looked. We should be making videos now showing how they are extremists. We also have a ton of amazing and inspiring sound bites from Democrat Senators. We should be creating a video to show how we are not a party of cry babies and whiners we are a party of PASSION and LOVE for our country.

      Where are the people who are taking what we DO have and running with it? Why are we only stuck with the naysayers?

    •  I disagree (none)
      I think this has done a lot more damage to the GOP than to us.

      For the Dems, we gave up 3 judges to defend our status quo.

      For the GOP, they lost their opening gambit for stacking the SCOTUS. Frist's power to control the Senate GOP is broken in a publicly humiliating manner. And he's being forced to accept a deal nearly identical with what he personally rejected weekns ago.

      And the whole time, the GOP have been absolutely slaughtered in the polls. They are being successfully tagged as power-hungry extremists.

      And now we go into debating Social Security - or the GOP drops that and we win.

      "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

      by jbeach on Tue May 24, 2005 at 10:14:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  asdk (4.00)
    It couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch...
  •  agreed (4.00)
    I don't like the compromise at all, but I agree that we won.


    Because this was primarily a battle of rhetoric and posture. Reid emerges looking like a decisive leader -- reasonable, compromising, and the like.

    Frist emerges looking like a pathetic loser, facing backlash from the moderates and extremists in his own party, written off as a weak and ineffective leader in the press and in (non-politically obsessed) public opinion.

    And that's a victory I'll gladly take.

    •  Thank you for... (3.00)
      ...this observation.  It's the only counterargument I've found yet that seems really credible to me.  

      I will work on trying to process this; basically, I am finding it very hard to avoid the feeling that oince again, our brilliant Dems have, as several posters have already put it, snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.  Frickin wusses.

      If you're right, then maybe -- just maybe -- it's worth the price, esp if it saves us from a SCOTUS justice who otherwise might have been filibuster-proofed (and, I gotta think, still might be).

  •  Thanks For Reading The Freepers... (none) so I don't have to ;)  I'm low on soap
  •  Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you (none)
    Damn. They may have avoided the "Nuclear Option" in the Senate, but they sure as fuck didn't at Kos. Sheesh. We don't even know what the fuck happened yet.

    Anything by Loudon Wainwright III

    by Earl on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:02:06 PM PDT

  •  Foot in the door . . . (none)
    You said I think we can expect even bigger favors from these 6 Republicans in the future.

    I think this is the right way to look at it.  We stood at a moment of history balanced on the blade of a knife, and six Senators held our fate.  

    They god they fell in the right direction.

    "A little bit of inefficiency is called culture." Check out my Diary you might like it.

    by dbratl on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:04:30 PM PDT

    •  Lindsey Graham (4.00)
      said it all when he put the White House on notice that Bush would have to work WITH the Senate now, instead of trying to control it.  

      This handful of Republican Senators has decided to take control and keep the Senate a seperate, but equal power in our form of government.

      Frist and Dobson weren't the only ones who got slapped tonight.  Bush and Cheney did too and it came from the moderates in his own party.

      This is what I see as a victory.

      •  Right on, Maggie Mae! (3.50)
        That's exactly why it's a victory.  When Supreme Court time comes, there's gonna be a little extra "Advice and Consent" going on.  That's exactly what I took Graham to mean.

        In the big picture, this is a victory of the Senate v. the Executive.

        •  Yupper! (none)
          And this is why Trent Lott was so happy to work with the Mods on this:

          1. He believes in the Senate as an independent body, not as an arm of the evecutive branch (aka he's not Bush's butt-boy, like Frist), and

          2. He's been waiting over two years to get revenge on Bush and Rove for using the Thurmond incident to force him out of the Majority Leader job in the Senate so they could give it to Frist.
  •  asdf (none)
    "the GOP couldn't launch the nuclear option"

    It that's the case, then why did we compromise at all? If it turns out 2 or 3 of these judges get confirmed, explain to me what we gained?

  •  Wow, the are even worse winers then we are! (none)
    How many times have you read the same words, word for word, said by fellow Kossacks?

    Memo to all Democratic campaigns: We already know about the problems. Where is the creative vision? (Extra credit if it fits into a sound bite!)

    by Matty NYC on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:07:08 PM PDT

  •  Mirror comments (4.00)
    The same kind of comments are at Atrios, about never giving another dime to the Dems, etc.

    What are Dems with 45 votes expected to do? I think they did pretty good with both hands tied behind their back and no other resources.

  •  I Don't Get It (none)
    The GOP gets 3 of its judges by threatening a totally unethical and hypocritcal parlimentary maneuver, and we get the right to possibly filibuster judges in the future under "extraordinary" circumstances.

    What's to stop Frist from claiming our next filibuster is based on partisan grounds, not those "extraordinary" circumstances mentioned above, and he threatens to launch the nuclear option next time.

    This isn't over.

    •  We <i>ARE</i> in the minority (none)
      The Democrats would have been relegated to other parliamentary procedures to shut down the Senate. We saw how that all worked for the GOP with Clinton.

      We stalled a battle that favors the Dems for a time that will be in the spotlight, not during Memorial Day weekend.

    •  You're rignt, it ain't over 'til it's over... (none)
      and I don't think it ever will be.  Nor should it be.  The Senate operates through a combination of confrontation and compromise.  The moderate Repubs may be the linchpin that keeps it together.

      The success of the compromise remains to be seen, but I have a feeling that those seven Republicans who bucked Bush/Frist/Dobson are sending a very strong, very positive message about separation of powers--and separation of church and state.

      •  I think if I were a moderate repub senator (4.00)
        I'd be good and sick by now of having to bow to the Bushies all the time and never being able to vote my true conscience. And Bush doesn't give anything in return, does he? I'd totally be ready to jump ship. And with all the Dem unity staring me in the face from the other side, reminding me of what I wasn't standing up for--it would be excruciating to just keep towing the far-right party line.

        "We've got to start making some friends on this planet" John Kerry

        by GinnyfromWI on Mon May 23, 2005 at 09:29:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The foot in the door technique? (none)
    How the hell is this the foot in the door phenomenon?

    They've played us. If anything, it's the door in the face phenomenon.  With us as the repentent slammers, giving them what it was they came for in the first place.

    Bigger favors??  They did the favor of allowing us to give them the justices they want!  They allowed us to keep our lives, politically speaking.  Because this isn't social psychology--this is battered woman syndrome.  "Really...he didn't beat me so hard this time...he could have killed me, but he didn't...gee, I'm lucky..."

    Don't enjoy the honeymoon period too long.  Remember--the beatings are going to start again soon, and they get worse over time.  

    "Why, Tom, we're the people that live. They ain't gonna wipe us out. Why, we're the people--we go on." Ma Joad, The Grapes of Wrath

    by rocketito on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:13:08 PM PDT

  •  According to Lindsey (sp) (4.00)
    Grahmn, not all of the judges will be "approved" which is a good thing.

    The fact that the GOP couldn't detonate the "bomb" also shows that there are problems, and could show other problems in the future for them.

    We compromised, kept the senate from changing the rules, and we can go forward knowing that Bush is losing more and more power each day.

    All in all, considering how "politics" plays out, it was a good thing.

    "September 11, 2001, already a day of immeasurable tragedy, cannot be the day liberty perished in this country." Judge Gerald Tjoflat

    by SanJoseLady on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:14:14 PM PDT

  •  Whopee (4.00)
    So the freepers are pissed. I'm sick of being told to "get over it" every time the dems make stupid strategic mistakes.  THINK.  What did we win?  Nothing.  We won NOTHING. The republicans get to scream bloody murder if we try to filibuster anybody, claiming that we are violating our agreement, making us look like cheaters.  The public has seen that once again democrats compromised instead of stadning up for what we believe.  And we are not one ince closer to winning congress back in 2006.  

    The freepers being pissed is nice, but they're going to vote republican no matter what they say now.  We had a chance for a real strategic victory, convincing America that republicans are extremists.  Losing would have made the argument even stronger.  We've lost that chance because too many congressmen were afraid to fight.  

    •  Glorious Defeat (none)
      As you suggest, I am THINKING about your proposed strategy of Glorious Defeat.  And I am thinking that it is way too costly.  It would hand Frist and Dobson a gigantic victory and cement the power of the far right.  It would make the Dems look like pathetic losers.  It would give up any leverage at all over the Supreme Court nominee (who will not be good in any case, but could still be much worse.)   And for all this, we would have in return the hope that it turns into a good campaign issue.   Which it might or might not.
      •  I fail to see how you think we have... (none)
        any leverage on a supreme court nominee now.  We agreed not to filibuster. Okay, they put in some language about not doing it unless we really need to, but basically they are going to treat it as an iron-clad promise.  All they have to do is claim that their party isn't extreme and they can then invoke the so called nuclear option yet again.  But this time the public will be on their side, because they will perceive that we have gone back on their promise.  
        •  Go read and understand... (4.00)
          ... the rest of this thread...

          ... and turn off the voice that says "Waahhhh!  Why didn't the 45 Democrats beat up the 55 Republicans?!?!?  Waaaahhh!"

          For one thing, Frist is toast.  His 2008 presidential campaign hinged on backing from the Fundies -- Dobson and his allies told Frist that if he failed to trigger the Nuclear Option, he could forget about getting any money or aid from the religious right.  Well, guess what?  He failed.

          Besides, if we could get over half a dozen GOP Senators to vote to preserve the filibuster, we can get them to vote down the nominations should they come up for a vote.

          •  That is very naive (none)
            If they were willing to work with us on this, they will work with us again.  We tried that, on numerous occasiona.  We tried working with them, and every stinking time they turned it against us.  But we're nice guys, so we're going to try again.  And again. We're going to keep working with them, expecting similar cooperation in return.  

            WE HAVE NO POWER.  The only power we have is the ability to convince the public that these guys are extremists and they should be voted out.  The so-called moderates who voted for this know that, and they acted to convince the public that everything is hunky dory and they shouldn't make any drastic changes in 2006.  Frist was toast anyway.  He's not very good at what he does, and didn't stand a chance at a presidential run.  

  •  Huge, Huge, loss for them (none)
    No way around it for them. Their stated goal was the elimination of the judicial filibuster. Period.  We may think we have a glass half full right now, but they clearly, clearly, lost this one. And let's not forget, this is huge loss for Bush and Rove specifically.

    We are seeing their side pick up speed very quickly now in falling apart.

  •  On the afternoon of Nov 2 (none)
    we were celebrating. The exit polls showed that Kerry won, and perhaps won big.

    And now some are celebrating. Before the judges have been voted up or down. Before the next SCOTUS seat has even become available.  Just sayin' ...

    He has oil. He tried to kill my daddy.

    by kensa on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:24:41 PM PDT

  •  Sure, it's nice to see their heads explodes. (4.00)
    That's always fun.

    But they sure aren't ever going to stomp for or vote for a SANE democrat. Ever.

    But truth of the matter is... decent Americans are going to come before these lunatic judges.  And we are talking serious DAMAGE to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  So a few wingnuts' heads are exploding?  That's no solace.  NONE AT ALL.

    Hope your concert was good!  Tell us who you got to see??? (us = people in towns where there is no music scene at all).

    LetsFight. re handle: Fight the radical right is the sentiment!

    by letsfight on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:29:50 PM PDT

    •  yeah (none)
      but they'll stay home, or they'll draft a third party candidate. The fact that the GOP base is deflated is good, even though it doesnt mean votes for the Democrats.

      Between Bush's commencement speech and his wife's Mid-East visit, the Bush family pissed off Christians, Jews and Muslims this weekend. -Randi Rhodes.

      by jj32 on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:45:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  These guys aren't staying home for any vote... (none)
        So they didn't get their way on one thing. They are living it up with ownership of the entire government.  Politics are like the superbowl. So they're pissed about one call by the refs.  No biggie. They are behind 'their team' for good.  These are the painted face fans.

        LetsFight. re handle: Fight the radical right is the sentiment!

        by letsfight on Mon May 23, 2005 at 08:20:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  They stayed away in droves in 2000 (none)
          when they found out about W's DUI arrest record. That was the basis of Rove's "4 million" plan -- to get the estimated 4 million wingnuts who sat out 2000 to not sit out 2004. That's why Chimpy spoke in code to them during the debates.

          The public wants what the public gets, but I don't get what this society wants -- Paul Weller

          by jamfan on Mon May 23, 2005 at 09:02:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  but that is exactly what Dobson is threatening (none)
          He said (go to that he's pissed and if the repubs don't shape up he's going to take votes away from them (the guy really loves to threaten stuff)--no more religious right votes for any naughty repubs who refuse to obey orders!!

          "We've got to start making some friends on this planet" John Kerry

          by GinnyfromWI on Mon May 23, 2005 at 09:34:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I'm home from college for a few days (none)
      and I was checking out my old group I was a cellist in, the Spokane Youth Symphony Orchestra.

      Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.

      by ARingMD2B on Tue May 24, 2005 at 10:54:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Is Senator Reid Still Speaking Tonight? (none)
    I had read hear that Senator Reid has scheduled a network speech for tonight.  I hope he still gives a speech.  He has worked hard and represented his party well.  Don't let people just forget what happened here - concerned Senators acted to prevent the destruction of their institution.

    I'm hoping he uses this as an opportunity to appeal to moderate Republicans (both citizens and politicians) to work for the good of the country.  The Congress (House and Senate) has given up far too much of it's powers and oversight to Bushco and needs to restore the proper balance in government to rein in the excesses of the Executive branch.  The only other choice left for these moderates is to stay linked to one of the most unpopular second term presidents ever while Iraq and our economy implodes.    

    We need to start making a case that this is about more than just political parties, that actions have been taken which threaten the stability of our republic.  We need to realize that we must reach out to concerned folks of all parties (especially the Repubs) to get a majority to take action.

    But really, I hold little hope for the House unless they find the strength to toss the Bugman.

  •  The Real Victory (4.00)
    Keeping the Democratic Senators together is like herding cats. The Republican Senators have, for the last, what, 10 years(?) have voted as a solid block.

    The real victory is that a half dozen Republicans have decided that Bush/Frist and co. is so dangerous, they had to break with their party.

    This wasn't a Republican from Michigan being allowed to vote pro-labor to get re-elected. This was a bunch of Republicans risking their careers to head off an unpopular train wreck.

    We won this one. Not by a blowout, but we won.

  •  best freeper quote: (4.00)
    "This sickening maneuver virtually ensures a Hillary Presidency."


  •  Side effects (4.00)
    This deal helps Nelson in his re-election next year in Nebraska.  He can argue that his bi-partisanship produces results.  If Nelson had voted against the nuclear option, he could have been portrayed as a lock-step Democratic obstructionist.  

    Unfortunately it probably also helps Chafee in R.I. - it gives some ammunition to argue he can check the excesses of the radical Republicans.  

  •  Prying the Repub moderates away from the extremist (4.00)
    I'm no political analyst, but I just wonder if one good thing about this is the fact that some of the Republican moderates have been pried a little bit away from that extremist wing that has been running the show. Everything depends on the Repubs keeping everyone in line so they can vote their slim majority. The dems can't defeat that majority by themselves, but if the moderate Republicans show that they won't go to the extremes, then that's going to have to have a moderating effect on the rest of the party.

    We tend to talk as though all Republicans are the spawn of evil, but I think there are shadings over there, and until we can elect a clear majority, our only hope is to get the more reasonable Republications to resist their evil overlords.

    It's easy to rant and rave about Reid should have a spine, but when you've don't have the votes, you don't have the votes. He's obviously been reaching out to the moderate Republicans to try to get the votes, and apparently has had some success. It's not as macho as some might like to see, but it seems like it's the only way to be effective in the current situation.

    But then, what do I know? I'm only thinking here...

    But if what you do to survive / Kills the things you love -- Bruce Springsteen, Devils & Dust

    by lesliet on Mon May 23, 2005 at 06:38:08 PM PDT

    •  Maybe McCain (none)
      Viewed the films of Bush kissing his head, and made himself sick over the spectacle. Surely he must know some who liked him lost respect for him. He would have not a prayer in 08 if he did not try to gain back a moderate or maverick stance even if it is not consistent and all politically oriented. McCain aligning himself with Bush gives McCain no help when he will need it later.  Maybe he woke up that he sold that his soul to the Devil in more ways than one. I doubt it but still, I often wonder  if MCCain thinks he is using Bush and Bush thinks he is using McCain as we all kinda figure they hate each other.  It is about time some of these moderates woke up instead of selling their party and souls to the likes of Dobson and Rove.

      We choose hope over despair; possibilities over problems, optimism over cynicism.-John Edwards

      by wishingwell on Tue May 24, 2005 at 12:42:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  We have VICTORY!!! (none)
  •  Now is the time to drive the next news cycle (4.00)
    This was driving this week's news cycle. Now the void must be filled.

    Perhaps it is time for the MSM to discover the Downing St. Minutes, The Jack Abramoff Affair, The Bush family connection to the Oil for Food scandal, US sanctioned torture or any of the many, many news stories they should cover.

    We have to act quickly before another bride runs away (or a gay one doesn't).

    •  right- let's GET TO WORK! (none)
      in addition to the above:

      1. Blast fax the houston bar "poor" rating to every senator and media outlet.

      2. Take apart Pryor's and Brown's idiocies and do same as (1).

      3. Whatever it takes, in the time that's left.

      We can be angry, depressed, etc, but what will that and all of the other hand-wringing accomplish?  We'll probably lose Bolton, too, but at least we made 'em work for it.  Let's either take Graham at his words or make him eat them -- and when/if we lose the votes on these judges, at least we will have stood together and done our best.  
      And if it's true that the last 2 from the 7 are already gone, that's something good, too.
    •  I second that (none)
      Keep hammering the media.

      Exploit the crack that widens the most and focus your energy on it.

  •  I stand at the ready. (none)
    I stand at the ready to...

    1.  Phone all my senators
    2. and use the media emails again

    If they betray us, again...which they probably will...

    All this means is that we have more time (since the media kept interviewing people and they didn't know what all the fuss was about) to educate people on what the big deal is.

    Seems like we get no breaks fighting.  So be it.

  •  Enemies should be encouraged to defeat themselves (4.00)
    At first I was disappointed about the specific judges, but the broader strategic victory is within reach. This allows Democrats to wrap themselves in moderation, and will hasten the lameduckdom and implosion and infighting of the GOP. Frist just got played, and now all of this "up or down" bullshit can be painted as whining--the Dems can say, hey, we made a deal, and the extremists on the right aren't happy with it because they're power hungry and they don't know when to stop.

    I think Reid just pulled a judo flip here.

    •  I agree (none)
      When I first saw what judges the deal was giving us, I was pissed, but then I realized just how bad a position this puts the Republicans in, and how good a position it puts us in.

      Not only do we keep the filibuster, we can use this deal to hammer any Republican who goes along with Frist if he tries to revive. If they're a moderate, we paint them as a sell-out, and if it's a wingnut, we paint them as an extramist who is against bi-partsianship and moderation.

      Not only that, but is it possible the Dems who crafted this deal were gaming at another level on this? What if, and this is highly doubtful, what if the Dems who wrote the deal chose these judges because there might not actually be enough votes to confirm them? I don't think that's very likely, one or two GOP defections, maybe, but it I don't think they could sink them. Still, it's something else to consider...

      Come see the house that Tom Delay built.

      by Goldfish on Mon May 23, 2005 at 11:40:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  not getting over it (none)
    if you use the Free Republic to tell you what reality is, you have a problem.

    I'm not getting over it.

    We'd be better off forcing them to try.

    Right now they have won... they have proved they can move things past the filibuster, partially by threatening to change the rules.

    The deal is pointless.

    •  The Repubs however ... (none)
      ... really are shriveling over this.

      I've been lurking on a board I call the Psychotic Farmers Forum. :=D They're not happy. Not one bit.

      And they're abandoning the Repubs.

      Which for me means one of two things: either we're looking at the real possibility of a Dem renewal OR perhaps the whackjobs of the Repubs will bails altogether, and we can maybe even anticipate a normalizing effect --- after Bush is gone, of course. Meaning  true Republicans with legitimately conservative agenda and (if we keep at it) true Democrats with legitimately liberal agenda.

      •  I take no pleasure in that (none)
        two reasons:

        (1) they want everything, they want to get us, they wanted to watch us flattened.  

        (2) this just means it's certain there will be no kind feelings and compromise to send more reasonable judicial candidates (which many are suggesting might actually happen, hah!) No, they think they've given in again.  Once more, we lose, and they are going to expect to thank them for it.  Dobson and the rest will turn up the heat.

        •  I hope ... (4.00)
          ... Dobson turns up the heat. Because he's a complete fruitcake and it's time everyone sees what a fruitcake he is.

          And if (when) Dobson doesn't get what he wants, he'll take the whackjobs with him.

          Which leaves us with the distinct possibility of a normalizing effect on political life.

          •  my future admission of error (none)
            I will not admit error on this, probably, because even if it turns out good I'll think it would have been better to force the vote of principle.

            HOWEVER: if the flak does turn up and help tear them apart.  If these threats to abandon the party continue, if they are really carried through (which I doubt)... then I'll happilly admit it was not so bad as I think it is now, that it was redeemed by the real affect on the Republican base.

            It's true they were told they were going to kick us in the head and Lucy pulled our head away at the last second so they only kicked us in the gut.

      •  well, that is cheering me up (none)
        a little.

        It just that I think they have their heads up their asses even including when they think they have lost.

  •  I just want to say that (none)
    sometimes you win some, and sometimes you lose some.

    I consider this is win. The first real win since 2000.

    YAY for the Democrats! As for the deal and the confirmation vote on a few judges, it's better than the loss of compromise. And ultimately, we're still above water, if a little more, I might say.

    Now the real fight begins. 2006 will be here before we know it. YAY!


    Phillybits "Censoring torture stories doesn't help the troops."

    by Stand Strong on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:00:50 PM PDT

  •  Repair the Rules? (3.75)
    It seems to this one-time programmer that any time a simple majority can change a 2/3-vote procedure, there's a flaw in the rules.

    I hope there's a quiet movement afoot to fix that contradiction.

    Every day, Microsoft's operating system looks safer and more sane than the nation's.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:01:07 PM PDT

  •  I just want to say that (none)
    sometimes you win some, and sometimes you lose some.

    I consider this is win. The first real win since 2000.

    YAY for the Democrats! As for the deal and the confirmation vote on a few judges, it's better than the loss of compromise. And ultimately, we're still above water, if a little more, I might say.

    Now the real fight begins. 2006 will be here before we know it. YAY!


    Phillybits "Censoring torture stories doesn't help the troops."

    by Stand Strong on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:01:23 PM PDT

  •  Dobson sure is pissed (none)
    calls deal a betrayal


  •  You just have to wonder.... (4.00)
    ...why so many rethugs have staked their identities on taking down the filibuster on judicial nominees.

    What planet are they from?

    They wouldn't leave the GOP because JeeDubyaBee fucking lied this country into an unnecessary war that cost thousands of American and tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi lives?

    But they are outraged because we can't destoy the very foundations of American government to give a pass to a few of Dubya's already rejected extremist judicial nominees?

    You just have to wonder how they mistook brainwashing for an education.

  •  Yep, this is a game of inches, (none)
    not feet.

    The GOP and the Elephant are both Introduced Species

    by roboton on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:07:58 PM PDT

  •  It kind of reminds me of.... (none)
    ...about 3:00PM on election day. And we all know what the outcome was when the dust had settled then.

    They get 3 more through and we're back to where we were. What's changed? Sooner or later they'll realize it.

    You have to be a real loser to rationalize this as a win.

    "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended." George W. Bush, May 1, 2003

    by Jim Riggs on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:08:31 PM PDT

    •  Nothing gained by calling the diarist (none)
      or anyone else a "real loser." Uncalled-for condescension and nastiness.

      The public wants what the public gets, but I don't get what this society wants -- Paul Weller

      by jamfan on Mon May 23, 2005 at 09:05:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Upon reflection, (none)
        I must agree with you. I have apologized privately to ARingMD2B and take this opportunity to do so publicly. There isn't much I can add to your description of my comment, it pretty much says it all.

        In my disappointment and anger I directed my criticism toward the wrong target. For that I am sorry.

        "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended." George W. Bush, May 1, 2003

        by Jim Riggs on Tue May 24, 2005 at 09:35:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  a compromise in the senate (none)
      is not the same as diebold machines and long lines in ohio turning away dem votes.
  •  The Frist shall be last (4.00)
    and the last shall be Frist! (Cats are rejoicing everywhere. MEOW.)
  •  Frankly (none)
    I think that this goes way beyond a win - it identified solidly those Republicans who are truly moderate and willing to work on behalf of their consciences.  These are the people we should consistently work on on all moderate issues.

    The revolution is coming... and we ARE the revolution.

    by RenaRF on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:15:28 PM PDT

  •  another reason why this is a win (none)
    Scarborough Country (sp? - I don't ordinarily watch it) is spending a lot of time discecting the outcomes for Frist/McCain. The analysis so far - short term win for McCain, but long term will hurt him. When they head into the '08 presidential primary and go head to head, the wackos, lead by Dobson, will remember McCain's role in this, and take him out in favor of Frist, who may have lost, in the short term, but preserved his base in the long run.

    And frankly, I think that's good for us.

  •  I would just like to remark (4.00)
    on the irony of a freeper quoting 1984: "Underneath the chestnut tree; The Republicans sold you, and the GOP sold me."

    "Take back the new millenium!" - Dan Bern

    by iambaytor on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:24:25 PM PDT

  •  Civil War analogy (4.00)
    (I posted this on Georgia10's diary as well. I don't normally repeat comments, but I'm kinda proud of this one, and I want it far and wide. :) )

    This may very well be our Antietam.

    For those of you who don't catch the reference, Lincoln had drawn up the Emancipation Proclamation in the summer/fall of 1862. He wanted to put it forward immediately, but Secretary of State Seward convinced him to hold off until a Union victory. At the battle of Antietam, McClellan battled Lee for a razor-thin victory, giving Lincoln the military win he felt necessary. So he then released the Proclamation, effective January 1, 1863.

    The Proclamation was more toothless than we think - it only freed the slaves in Union-held territory, and it didn't specifically outlaw slavery - but the gesture (and the close victory at Antietam) kept Great Britain and France from suing for peace on behalf of the Confederacy.

    This isn't everything we wanted. It may not even be a majority of what we wanted. It's a narrow, narrow margin of victory - BUT IT IS A VICTORY. The Senate, like the Union in 1862, lives to fight another day.

    After the Proclamation entered into the equation, the moral tone of the Civil War changed. No more was it about rebellion; now it was about freeing people from the yoke of oppression. Our job now, no matter what we personally think of the deal, is to do whatever it takes to change the moral tone of the debate. It is in this way - through the highs and the lows, the victories and defeats - that we will ultimately emerge victorious.

    We've had our Antietam. We will lose again and win again. We will have our Gettysburg. And on that day, though the fight will be hard, we will stand and hold the high ground. Sometime after that, we will have our Appomattox.

    And possibly someday, Ken Burns IV will make a lengthy multi-part PBS movie about it.


    Walk In Brain - the finest blogging in my apartment building.

    by Wes F on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:29:08 PM PDT

    •  I appreciate a good speech.. (none)
      ..and you're a romantic for it, but...

      well, no buts...maybe we need a couple of victory laps, imaginary or not...

      maybe the dogs of war, the real hordes of religio fanatics will be upon us now though, and this will mark the beginning..either way, it's a victory, however small, against those tyrannous dogs..

      Jesus: Destroy this temple - Gospel of John

      by The Gnostic on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:44:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  astounding double think (none)
    have we jumped the shark.

    have I not read a thousand complaints about how unacceptable these 10 judges are?

    and now it's a great victory... we've saved the Republic.

    jesus, how fast can you change positions in order to interpret victory from defeat?

  •  Get over it, we won (none)
    I didn't quite think of it that way, but boy am I liking the sound of that. It's time to practise saying that. Get ready `06.
  •  I agree with you that this is a victory. (none)
    ..and the other Democrats who aren't happy about the "end times" scenario need to wake up and understand a victory when it smacks them in the face.  And a big one at that.  

    Face it American Taliban repubs, here is what America, the real America sees of you, you thugs:  the subliminal, actual headlines:  "The American Taliban face humiliating defeat on attempted fascist usurpation of democracy on planet earth."  

    Oh yes.  It's a victory.  

    And now, we liberals need to take no mercy, because we certainly understand now that these bastards take no prisoners, and press our own agenda:

    I suggest pushing revision of drug policy so that these so-called libertarian repubs SHUT UP and so that poor people, who get it up the ass with the current drug policy, will appreciate, and reward by this one token friggin bone.  

    Also, the beginning of a drive to cut off funds for Iraq should begin.  That is how America got out of Vietnam and it is how we will get out of Iraq and the Middle-east.

    And some focus people!!!!  We need to find a leader who bring all the disparate groups together.  Obama?

    Jesus: Destroy this temple - Gospel of John

    by The Gnostic on Mon May 23, 2005 at 07:36:06 PM PDT

  •  Proud of Reid (4.00)
    I lived in Nevada for 8 years when I was going to college (University of Nevada, Reno, class of '95), and actually met Reid once when he came to speak on campus. Nice man; quiet and very very intelligent--but an absolute attack dog on the things that mattered to the state, such as Yucca Mountain.

    So I hope I'm not out of line in claiming him as a representative, even though I live in CA now. The man is tough as nails, and I'm stoked to have him on our side.

  •  We aren't the 'get over it' crowd (none)
    With all due respect your title is not respectful. We are the folks who are trying to piece together what it all means, and mainly what it cost us. It cost us a lot. Could it have been worse? I guess, but I think we'll all be back for the rematch when Rehnquist's replacement comes up.

    3 Federalist Society judges in one fell swoop after having held them off successfully throught the first time is a feather in GW's cap. Make no mistake. And don't tell me to get over it before I've had time to digest it, just because some people can't handle unpleasantness.

    •  i wonder if people can tell you (none)
      to at least not automatically assume the absolute worst.

      that in your analysis and digestion the good also be considered.

    •  Would you rather have seven? (none)
      And an SC Justice? I would have rather won the vote out-right, but I would rather have a marginal victory then lose. With what's at stake, a safe compromise is better then a roll of the dice.

      And for reasons I've already explained in detail we did get the better part of this deal. Yeah, we got three horrible judges, but we kept the filibuster, and gained a foot-hold in defending it the next time around. This in addition to deeping the rift between the theocons and the rest of the GOP, battering Bill First and his presidential ambitions.

      An ugly victory? Yeah, but it is a victory.

      Come see the house that Tom Delay built.

      by Goldfish on Mon May 23, 2005 at 11:54:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Braving Dark Waters (4.00)
    I too have looked at the Freepers and found the following:

    "Do you think Trent Lott is a Conservative? Do you think Orrin Hatch is a Conservative? John Warner? Bill Frist?"

    I mean when you are calling out TRENT "oh, that sweet sweet segregation" LOTT's conservative credentials...bejeebus.

    And if you're familiar with "What's the matter with Kansas?" this should raise an eyebrow:

    "Frankly, I give up. If you vote Repubican and you make under $60,000 a year you are a fool. All the Christian people out there voting for Bush should just stop wasting their time.  Vote for pocketbook. The Repubs have been playing the "values" card for 20 years and nothing has changed.  Accept the fact that both partes in Reality are pro-choice. Start a third party if you wish, but give up the dream that the Repubs are ever going to change the Judiciary"

    So, we didn't get a full-on win.  But we did well for a 55-45 split and the slippery alliances that have helped the repubs hold/gain power just got a lot greasier.

  •  Master Of The Senate (none)
    I used a Civil War analogy in an earlier comment, but I'm also thinking of the third (most recent) volume of Robert Caro's masterful biography of LBJ.

    The first 100 pages of the book are a history of the United States Senate, and how it was designed to be primarily an obstruction. For good or for ill, the Senate stood against the powerful forces of overreaching Presidents and unruly mobs.

    Ladies and gentlemen, it wasn't everything we wanted, but tonight, the Senate stood. The Religious Right took one on the chin. Now we need to make sure we keep up the fight. We won this one; the next one starts immediately.


    Walk In Brain - the finest blogging in my apartment building.

    by Wes F on Mon May 23, 2005 at 08:00:16 PM PDT

  •  Who cares how it plays to those wackos (none)
    at free Republic? How does it play to the rest of the country? You know, the ones who would follow Bush over a cliff even if he had "ANTI-CHRIST" tattooed on his forehead are not the ones we should care about. What about the swings? The middle? The ones who narrowly elected Bush?
    •  To them (none)
      The Dems and the moderate Republicans will look like the adults, and Frist, Bush, Dobson, and the rest of the ultra-cons will come of as spoiled children. Don't underestimnate the public opinion vaule of this deal.

      Come see the house that Tom Delay built.

      by Goldfish on Mon May 23, 2005 at 11:57:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Has anyone... (4.00)
    seen any response to all of this from the White House? Have they ordered a large plastic kiddie pool in which George can start splashing his lame-duck ass around in?

    "There are some bad people on the right." - Morrissey

    by modchick65 on Mon May 23, 2005 at 08:30:29 PM PDT

  •  I love the guy who is threatening to vote (none)
    Libertarian. This truly shows that people have absolutely no sense of politics. He wanted Janice Rogers Brown confirmed, a judge who is activally OPPOSED to what Libertarians stand for.

    A Libertarian would not want to actively control the lives of its citizens, ala Brown. In fact, America has been trending toward the side of the permissable partly because of a Libertarian ethos guiding our culture. Call it capitalism for society, if you will. The irony is that Freepers like this misguided fellow are against this kind of capitalism.

    "If cows and horses had hands, they would depict their gods as cows and horses." Xenophanes

    by upstate NY on Mon May 23, 2005 at 09:04:16 PM PDT

  •  Are Freepers really... (4.00)
    ...the best barometer of the wisdom of a political move?

    When liberals want examples of unintentional parody for their blogs, the first place they turn is Freeperville. Yet now, for some reason, we're expected to take the discontent from the same little wieners as evidence of some brilliant Democratic maneuver?

    Dude... I sense a major case of sensible liberalitis here. What just happened was a classic case of appeasement, and this will probably become painfully clear in the not-too-distant future.

  •  Just think: Ashcroft and Gonzalez in the SCOTUS (none)
    That's what could have happened, if the Dems lost the right to filibuster.

    Instead, we gave up 3 judges who stink, and in the process break the GOP moderates off from the puppets of loonies. Reid looks and is strong, and Frist looks and is humiliated and weak.

    And now we can get on to real business.

    "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

    by jbeach on Tue May 24, 2005 at 10:19:09 AM PDT

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