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What Atrios said.
1) This blog does not exist to promote you, your blog, your business, your organization, your pet issue or cause. Failure to promote or link to any particular thing should not be taken as disapproval of it.

2. If a story falls on the front page of the New York Times, and I don't say anything about it, some people probably will manage to actually hear about it even without it appearing on this page.

3. If Josh Marshall, Tapped, the Washington Monthly, Daily Kos, Pandagon and numerous other blogs talk about something, and I don't, some people probably will manage to actually hear about it even without it appearing on this page.

4. People who write angry emails chastising me for not writing about issue X or demanding that I do so generally find their way into my spam filter. I imagine many other bloggers react similarly. See also 1) and 2) above.

5. People who write angry emails chastising me for writing about issue X and complaining that there are so many more important things to write about generally find their way into my spam filter. I imagine many other bloggers react similarly. See also 4) and 1) and 2) above.

6. Such occasional reminders are not angry bitter complaints. None of the above should discourage people from emailing me with things they think I might be interested in. There is a big difference between "this is interesting" and "you must write about this." Nor should any of the above be taken to mean that I react badly to any and all criticism of what I write. It's just the type of criticism that comes from people who get angry when this blog isn't their personal megaphone that annoys me. "What you wrote is wrong" is very different from "how dare you do/don't write about issue X."

Adding to the list:

This is a site about electoral issues, the netroots, and Iraq. Period. If you have an issue you want to tackle, whether it's environmental, Darfur, women's rights, tax reform, education, or whatever, you can 1) write a diary about it, or 2) start your own blog on the topic.

I am not the end-all, be-all of liberal blogging. I cannot be everything to everyone.

This site gives everyone the ability to air their pet issues. I don't have to write about them for them to have value. And I won't. Just like I won't write about issues that I AM interested in but stray from my core areas. Do I stray on occassion? Yeah, but I do so sparingly.

And I'm not afraid to tell people to head elsewhere if they can't find what they want here. Regarding the Pie controversy, people act offended I "kicked them off" when dismissing their concerns. It's not so much kicking people out, as saying that this site isn't everything to everyone. I am actually proud when this site spawns new sites like Booman Tribune, Liberal Streetfighter, The Next Hurrah, Steve Gilliard, Bilmon, etc. Even the new Women Kossacks site, although I wish they'd come up with a better name for the site. There are many other sites and communities out there that could use the patronage as well.

So I don't feel particularly motivated to turn Daily Kos into the EVERYTHING site for the progressive netroots. I'm going to keep within the niche I've established for myself. People can use the diaries or find fellow travellers on any number of issues on other blogs. And if they want more, or outgrow the diaries, they can always start their own blog.

It's citizen media, not Kos media. When you find this site lacking, you can do something about it. And that's the best thing about this medium.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Tue Jun 07, 2005 at 11:37 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  This one is much better (3.00)
    point taken.
    Time to cut the shit out and get down to business.
    •  disagree (3.81)
      Writing as someone who reads the comments only infrequently:

      What I saw was complaint about an ad that made me uncomfortable, for, among other reasons, being geared almost exclusively towards adolescent males, as if a sizable portion of this community just didn't exist, or didn't have decision-making capabilities. After a while where I just avoided the comment,s something happened on the front page that was just flat out obnoxious.

      There was a right way to say that the ad was staying up, and there was a wrong way, and to my mind, Kos took the wrong way. He was snarky in a way that made it appear that he was dismissive about feminism -- and to the poster below, the comment below about 'this coming as a surprise to Kos's wife' sounds a hell of a lot like 'some of my best friends are Jewish,' you know?  -- and whether or not he is or isn't, you don't air your dirty laundry in public.

      This nastiness could have been avoided in large part if Kos hadn't made that crack, if his apology had, well, tried a little harder, and, failing all that, if he'd made his charges, say, below the flip rather than up front where any casual reader of this blog (i.e., someone who spends less than an hour a day here) isn't go to see them, because, frankly, it was embarrassing, like seeing a couple screaming at each other in a mall.

      we gonna smash their brains in / cause they ain´t got nofink in ´em -- Linton Kwesi Johnson

      by Karl the Idiot on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 03:58:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you! (2.00)
        And well said.

        Personally, I wish he'd lose that ad.  It makes me feel like I'm logged on to some site geared toward spotty 14 year old boys, rather than thoughtful, caring and progressive people.

        Peace

        •  The ads are easily blocked (3.66)
          Depending on your web browser. Not wanting to get way to techie, Firefox has a fantastic ad blocker and its very easy to use.

          With the adblocker on, Kos could go all Guckert on us, and I wouldn't even notice.

          So, if the ads are getting you down, consider this route.

        •  LOL...don't you know that inside (4.00)
          every thoughtful, progessive and caring man is a spotty 14 year old who pops up whenever breasts come into view??? If the guys who like the ad come to DKos to post their political views instead of trolling the net for porn, give them credit for that at least, and let them have their "eye candy" if it makes them happy.

          The ad is not in good taste, but then very little on TV these days is..and certainly those "reality" shows plumb the depths of bad taste.  I know this post is probably going to get flamed for being "politically incorrect"..but let me point out that I am a feminist, and have been one since I was a child. My grandmother was a suffragette, and my mother was a founding member of NOW.  I was never taught that women couldn't do anything men could do, hence my career in the horse racing business, galloping race horses like the men, handling tough stallions like the men, etc.

          I have noticed a similarity between men and horses, they both get excited about any in season bit of fluff that comes down the pike, and handling them properly is done in the same way. I tell my friends that you handle men the same way you handle horses, firmly and with a smile. They both respond similarly. Feed them regularly, scratch them when they itch and they will do anything for you. Just think of that ad as a little scratch..LOL

          As long as they stand with us on the things that matter, like taking back this country from the fascisti that have a stranglehold on it, why fracture the front with petty crap?? If they get silly and juvenile, slap them down and go on. Don't keep nagging and complaining..it's only going to make them do it more. Like a spotty 14 year old..get it??

          What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

          by Demfem on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 08:24:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I get it and you make a good point (none)
            However, I don't think this discussion is petty.

            Think of it this way...

            What if that ad were demeaning to a minority or some religious group?  WHY is it all right to put women down but people get all up in arms if an ad includes a big old white guy in black-face?

            This boy's-will-be-boys mentality isn't productive.  If someone told a racist joke here they'd be told off in no uncertain terms by ALL of us here.  Why is it ok to allow this then?

            Can someone please explain this to me?

            •  Remember tho... (none)
              not all women (most even?) agree with you that the ad is offensive...

              I'm a woman, I don't take offense...

              please remember that you don't speak for everyone here... and I don't think it is in any way comparable to racism, and those that are suggesting so are grasping at straws...

              can you not just say you were offended, write a diary, do whatever, but going on and on and on about ONE advertisement on ONE blog is a waste of resources and effort...

              "There is no spoon."

              by L0kI on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:43:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Nicely said.... (none)
            although I probably need a bit more than a good scratch once in a while.;)

            Returning this country to its sane roots is a job that definitely needs a unified front, and a lot more work.  

            Your words are very helpful.

            The Moral Majority - all those Christian conservatives left on Earth AFTER the Rapture....

            by sp0t on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 09:30:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Week before's Gender User Poll (none)
            Hmmm..

            A week or so ago, kos posted a poll to determine gender balance of users, and it was 60/40 more or less, male/female.  

            Then, Pie.

            Just wonderin' how the ad placement decision timing relates to the poll. If it does.

            Good men through the ages, tryin' to find the sun, still I wonder, still I wonder, who'll stop the rain? -J. Fogerty

            by RichRandal on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 10:59:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Geez (none)
            Sometimes I think I'll never understand straight men.

            Terrance Heath
            Washington, DC
            terrancedc@earthlink.net
            http://www.republicoft.com

            by TerranceDC on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 05:55:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Well said (3.75)
        Those who complained were taking the appropriate action, and Markos' response was rude. A media outlet (dKos) is showing an advertisement which some people find offensive. They protested to the proprietor, then took their business elsewhere. It is exactly what any of us would do with any media outlet, and Markos should not have taken it so personally (though in all honesty, I didn't read many of the protest comments, so I have no idea how personal people were getting with him).

        I also think this latest response from Markos shows a bit of naïveté. This is not Eschaton. This is no longer a niche blog, regardless of how limited the scope of Markos' front page posts. This is the largest, most visited, most prestigious liberal blog. We have congress-people posting here, for crying out loud.

        It is telling that Markos writes "I am not the end-all, be-all of liberal blogging. I cannot be everything to everyone." This shows an inability to separate himself from the blog. I can totally understand this... this blog is his baby. But it is bigger than him, now: it is the community. It has already become "everything to everyone," whether Markos intended that or not, and whether he likes it or not. Note the difference: HE is not everything to everyone, but his blog is. He should be able to acknowledge this.

        I think the larger concern of those who protested wasn't simply that they found the ad offensive, but what the posting of the ad here says about the left as a whole. This is the #1 liberal blog, and it does have an impact on the left as a whole and how we are perceived. Thus, I think Markos does have a responsibility to represent the left in the best light possible when it comes to choosing advertisers.

        That's just my 2 cents.

        "The man of great wealth owes a peculiar obligation to the State, because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of government" - Teddy Roosevelt

        by mrboma on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 11:01:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Adolescent males? (4.00)
        LOL! I don't know about you but when I was an adolescent I didn't frequent progressive blogs about america's future.

        If you are going to complain about the misfiring on the target audience of this blog(which I think you're right on), you should take it up with the advertiser and their marketing dept. Apparently they view this as a good place to advertise things that appeal to what you deem as adolescent. It would be like advertising Bob Marley's greatest hits on Fox News or something. It's probably a big mistake on the record labels part but Fox has every right to let the advertisers make that mistake.

        If that ad made you uncomfortable then you live in an extremely isolated and comfortable community. That sounds a lot like my republican coworker here in NC, which is very frightening.

  •  I want to tell you what ads you can run (3.62)
    But I am going to start first with the Village Voice, the progressive weeklies and ethnic papers, get them to cut out the porn.

    Once that is done, then i'll come after you.

    The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

    by Armando on Tue Jun 07, 2005 at 11:46:33 PM PDT

    •  What's wrong with porn? (3.20)
      The puritans are killing us!
    •  I tried to alert Markos to a suspiciously... (none)
      ...trollish advertiser, but I don't know if he ever saw it. It was a text ad that linked to a site defending the Nielsen company's survey methodology that undercounts minorities. Its gone now. Here is my diary about it.

      dKos Advertiser: MurdochWatch.org - Who Are They Pimping For?

      If they really are shills for Nielsen or their CorpMedia clients, that's way more serious than the pie fight dust up.

      The Media Is Dead. Long Live NewsCorpse.com

      by KingOneEye on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:12:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Who cares? (3.00)
        They're giving Kos money. I'd hope anyone smart enough to find this site wouldn't be swayed by an obvious shill.
        •  I hope Markos cares. (none)
          I don't think he would want to take money from a sham organization, masquerading as a progressive ally. Its not really obvious at all.

          Just my impression, that's all.

          The Media Is Dead. Long Live NewsCorpse.com

          by KingOneEye on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:35:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I agree with you (none)
            Markos, take note.

            The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

            by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:36:40 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If they are shills (none)
              for Nielsen or their CorpMedia clients, it's at least a sign one segment of the right wing noise machine is starting to get us. If they're paying $2,000 a month so DailyKos keeps its servers fired up I welcome them.

              (none / 0), (none / 0), it's off to Kos we go, with a...

              by doorguy on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 03:49:21 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So if the Swift Boat Vets... (none)
                ...made up a fake pro-environment group to solicit donations to further their campaign of lies, you think Kos should take their money and run the ad?

                The Media Is Dead. Long Live NewsCorpse.com

                by KingOneEye on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 10:01:56 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  hmmmmm (none)
                  Apples and oranges my friend. A bit over the top.

                  Additionally, it would be impossible for them to do that without some legal ramifications. If you pose as a pro-environment PAC or fund raiser you are obligated to serve that function. If they purported to be pro-environment then they would have to live up to that billing or face a serious lawsuit. So that's ridiculous.

                  The sad fact of the matter is that money helps keep this place up and running. If you have spare change to throw at this blog that can make it completely community run then I'm sure everyone would like that. However, since that's not going to happen anytime soon advertising will continue. At least there are no popups or weird flash advertisements that you have avoid. Look at it that way.

                  •  Its all apples, my friend (none)
                    Swift Boat Vets fronting as environmentalists or CorpMedia fronting as civil rights advocates. Pretty much the same thing. And I wouldn't take money from either of them.

                    The Media Is Dead. Long Live NewsCorpse.com

                    by KingOneEye on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 11:46:57 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  you cynic you (none)
                      I agree with you on that but I don't see it's relation to the ad in question. the corporate media doesn't care about civil rights (maybe they once did) and are much more interested in the bottom line. Producers run the show now and so pretty much every outro on a newscast sounds something like "check in tomorrow where so and so will tell you about something under your sink that might be toxic and fodder for potential terrorists".

                      I'm happy to see corporate media go, but they will always have their hands in it in some way. That doesn't apply as much in a blog though because helpful people like you can point this stuff out and uncover things yourselves. It's a wonderful thing really. I'm glad we have advertisers for the site, regardless of their affiliation, etc but I'm even more glad that we can slap the advertisers around like so many people are doing and can throw important newsstories into the open that would almost certainly get no coverage by the MSM (aka Rupert Murdoch, Les Moonves, etc).  

                      •  I think we may have crossed wires. (none)
                        Are you talking about the pie ad? My post above is about the MurdochWatch ad. The relationship between that ad and civil rights is that The Alliance For Civil Rights is the org that runs MurdochWatch. But I can't find any evidence that its a legitmate org.

                        The Media Is Dead. Long Live NewsCorpse.com

                        by KingOneEye on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:39:51 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Indeed (none)
                          Right on man. That's actually the best post I've read on this site thus far about the MurdochWatch ad. Let me know if you find anything solid on it. That's a very interesting tidbit. If true, then this thing could go deeper than just that ad. That's what these blogs are for.
                          I've heard of republicans and the gop pulling some dirty tactics. In Philly they put up fliers in low income housing areas that said "If it rains or you don't have time to vote on the 2nd you can vote up to friday" which is completely untrue and very devious. They made the handout look like believable and there were reports they paid some of the neighborhood kids to distribute them.
        •  The ads a publication/media outlet accepts... (none)
          ...says as much about the nature of said outlet as the editorial content. Publications routinely reject ads that they feel are not appropriate for their tone and audience. Or at the very least, ask that the ads be revised.

          My problem with the pie ad(s) have nothing to do with any kind of morality, but with what it does to the representation of this site.

          It's shallow, superficial, and stupid, which is not what I think of DailyKos. I've been more informed about the political workings of the USA in the past 6 months than I ever have. The prominent pie ad does nothing to reinforce the nature of the information provide here. At a casual glance, a new comer or other persons unfamiliar with the site are going to get a mis-impression at first glance because pictures are more quickly processed than words.

          "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."

          by internik on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 05:48:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Interesting question... (none)
        I do agree you shouldn't let groups who have a nefarious goal use the site for advertising.

        But, honestly, I'm not certain that your diary presented a case for this.  It seems to rely upon several assumptions, which you don't really substantiate.

        The domain is registered to xntec.com, which seems to be a New York City based web company.  Their major client appears to be the Humane Society.  They also have some news about hosting the September 11th fund, and some stuff for Rosie Odonnell and Boy George.

        I don't understand where you get the impression they are shills for Nielsen.

        Even more troublesome, you don't even make the accusation outright... you're doing a... "If they really are shills for Nielsen" plausible deniability wimp ass lame-o argument.

        Come on, do you have proof for your accusation or not?

        •  You might want to -read- the diary. (none)
          Look, if you think the diary didn't make the case, fine, that's your opinion. But to say it didn't present the case makes me wonder if you even read it.

          I don't want to re-publish the whole thing here. People can read it for themselves. I'll just respond to your assertions.

          "It seems to rely upon several assumptions..."
          That's right. And I said in my diary that a lot of it was based on suspicion and speculation... But that's partly because there was so little real data available about the advertiser.

          "The domain is registered to xntec.com..."
          I also said that in my diary. They are a web development firm. Their client list tells us nothing about the client. And the client tells us nothing either.

          "I don't understand where you get the impression they are shills for Nielsen."
          Well, the fact that they are attacking the groups that are critical of Nielsen might have something to do with it. And they don't even respond to the critics salient arguments about minority undercounts. They just attack, like shills are known to do.

          "you don't even make the accusation outright..."
          Huh? Everything I said was said outright. Did I leave the door open? Yes. Because the mysterious nature of the group leaves many questions. I asked those questions and suggested Markos look into it further. Would you rather I make ad hominem attacks like they were gospel without nailed-down proof (like shills are known to do)?

          And speaking of ad hominem attacks, your "wimp ass lame-o argument" comment says more about you than me or my arguments.

          My diary was not about proof. It was a heads-up for Markos. There was plenty to be suspicious about, but if there was nothing to it, than he could ascertain that and move on. If you don't think a generically-named, unidentifiable group that takes Nielsen's side in support of a discrimanatory new survey process is worthy of looking into, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but that doesn't mean they aren't out to get us.

          The Media Is Dead. Long Live NewsCorpse.com

          by KingOneEye on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 09:54:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sigh (none)
            I did read the diary.

            You just don't make a very compelling argument.

            I'm sorry that you can't see that and think we should all take you at face value.

            •  I call your Sigh and raise you a Phew (none)
              Are you really sorry that I can't see that I don't make a very compelling argument? Because I can use all the sympathy I can get.

              Please note that if I'm making an argument, as you allege, then, by definition, I'm not asking to be taken at face value. But note further that I am not making an argument. I am expressing a suspicion which, I believe, Markos is fully capable of assessing and acting upon (or not) on his own.

              Note, finally, that you didn't address even one of my substantive responses to your criticism.

              But thanks for the sympathy.

              The Media Is Dead. Long Live NewsCorpse.com

              by KingOneEye on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:05:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  seriously (none)
      I don't see at all how asking Kos to take an ad down while not holding mass protests against every progressive weekly in the nation is somehow inconsistent or hypocritical.

      But I do appreciate you reminding us just how crappy some of these progressive weeklies are.

      Politology.US - Politics and Technology in the United States

      by tunesmith on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:29:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You don't? (none)
        It is hard for me to see how you cannot see how it is hypocritical.

        The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

        by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:32:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Porn ads ... (none)
          Failure to want to remedy all the flaws of the world may be a vice, but it is not the vice of hypocrisy.
          •  It is indeed (none)
            hypocrisy.

            For if the concern was SINCERE in its entirety, the BIGGER sin would strike outrage.

            I have NEVER EVER heard a word about it.

            Have you?

            The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

            by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:52:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Nope (none)
              But then I don't make a habit of reading those mags so didn't know about the ads.

              I don't think it is hypocrisy because the failure to do something about a bad thing need not be motivated by the belief that it isn't really bad.  If it were, then it would be a matter of hypocrisy because there would be an inconsistency in judgment.  But not doing something about the mag ads is more plausibly caused by the firm belief that any protest would be utterly ineffective.  Now that may be a problematic belief, but it isn't hypocrisy.

              Nice example though ...

              •  I question the idea (none)
                that folks do not know about those ads.

                I question why they have not protested those ads?

                If I am right on their knowledge, and those ads have run for years and years, how can you escape the conclusion that hypocrisy is afoot?

                The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

                by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:07:16 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I still want to know (none)
                  if liberals are supposed to be pro-porn or not.  Is it a freedom of speech thing or a subjugation of woman thing.

                  Someone please tell me what to think

                  Midwest Center for American Values - Progressive ideas in an easy to swallow pill.

                  by ETinKC on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:16:24 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Ads (3.83)
                  You're in PR right?  I'm in NC.  We should both be in bed.  Seriously.  But here goes:

                  1.  I don't know what other people know about.  Beats me really.  I assume they might know.  But even so ...

                  2.  I think of hypocrisy as an inconsistency in ethical judgment typically motivated by some form of selfishness, e.g. "abortions are murder ... (except when my daughter is knocked up by some lowlife)."

                  3.  I don't think a failure to act against something bad entails you don't think it is bad.  There are lots of reasons why you might not act.  Typically, one might fail to act because one believes it to be a waste of energy.  

                  4.  I don't think ethics requires that one acts or even protests everything that one judges to be bad.  The list is too long.  But that might be me just being a bit jaded.

                  5.  What would be hypocrisy is if someone thought that it was OK for a magazine to have pornographic ads, but not OK for DKos to have the pie fight thing.  Or at least they would need a really good explanation for such a position.  I doubt it could be good.  But I don't see anyone advancing such a position.

                  6.  In any case, the ad hominem must be avoided - hypocrisy is the homage vice pays virtue, and even hypocrites can be right some of the time.
            •  all right... (4.00)
              I'll engage on the sillier level.

              Weekly newspapers and blogs are not the same thing.  Weekly newspapers are something you pick up once a week.  The community connection is usually at most through the occasionally recognized names in the Letters To Editor section.  The weekly is seen as a tiny subset of the community it seeks to represent.  It is easy to pass off the weekly as an irrelevant expression of the values of said community.

              Daily kos is something that regular participants check mutliple times a day.  The community connection is strong, through shared conversations, comment threads, diaries, stories, and even a branded identification of people meeting people through getting to know each other on kos.  The community is tightly linked to the website.  The community sets its own mores and own standards, separate from the hands-off management style of kos himself.  It is very easy to take the behavior of the site's authors as an expression and representation of the community's values.

              That is not to say the community member is correct.  But if a community member sees values expressed that conflict with their own understandings of community mores, they will very understandably feel moved to protest in a way that they won't against a progressive weekly.

              And I'd also argue that this is a pattern that is built into daily kos, and markos frankly should see it coming - it'll keep happening.  You build an awesome community that can set its own rules and develop its own standards, but then you also occasionally nail down your own interpretation of what the standards really are.  Of course there's going to be tension.

              Politology.US - Politics and Technology in the United States

              by tunesmith on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:00:12 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  nice (none)
            I like that.  I'd have just said, "pick your battles".  :)

            Politology.US - Politics and Technology in the United States

            by tunesmith on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:53:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So this battle (none)
              is the one?

              Hard for me to believe that serious people who care about the issue would pick THIS battle.

              Perhaps you are agreeing with me.

              The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

              by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:54:53 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hey Armando, (none)
                after all the criticism you get painting you as some sort of bullying nightmare, I just wanted to say (as quick as I can) that I think you have been unbelievably moderate and fair through this whole debate. You're doing a great job on a very painful and confusing issue.
              •  maybe I should just stay out of this and go on (4.00)
                but it was nto the ad in and of itself that might have taken me a few days or so to get agitated about,  It grew into somethat that was a womans issue...

                This is of itself what I find funny.  Instead of the men trying to understand where some of us women were coming from and our age and generation, we were dismissed as being nonsensable or stiring the feces.  I beg yoru pardon!?  It is ppl like myself who are the mothers of thsi generation of which you guys belong.  I start to wonder about your bringing up and who might have tought you your ideals.  Surely not your mothers...must have been the father or big brother or someone on the street corner.

                I an not a prude...by a long shot in definition, I just happend to mature and change my thoughts on things...like someof youguys have not.  I used to could take porn or leave it...til I became a mom...that changed most of a lot of what I used to think in the past.  NOw that I am a grandmother and in a world that has become more dangerous to live in, I see the danger before youguys wake up to smell the coffee.

                That is what it is like to be a older and more mature woman.  With that being said, I am not trying to be stronger thanyou or being smarter than you, allI am saying is listen to me and what I might have to say and diget it cuz, it might save you or your daughter or your sister or someone who is a woman that you love.  I have many years behind me that give me creedence. That is all some of us women out here are saying toyou guys. Give us a chance to say what being a woman is all about.  Yes I have been abuse...in many was, cuz I let those men abuse me...I chnage that factor for the betterment.  I am now able to see it coming my way a long time before I get hooked....that comes with experience.  Of which some ofyou do not have.  

                I am just saying, look at my caution sign I out to you for you need to take heed.  Stop, look and listen for once in your life..it might just do you some good.

                One thing I am very sure of and that is we are all human around here.  We all can learn a lot about other by just listening and learning.

                Do not consider you as an authority on everything, especially about women...for bub, you are not...most men do not even begin to touch the real surface as to what women are truly about.  I can say the same thing about me and men...but I do know I am an older woman and you need nto deman me any futher....I came of my own freewill and I can leave of my own free will...that decision is left up to me.  And believe you me, I will nto let the door hit my butt on the way out either...

                Yes I am angry that the men in here that I trusted to be sensitive to womans issues turned out not to be those and those that I thougth werent, are...goes to say about my cyberjudgment of ppl, huH??!!

                I can honestly say I ma the wiser for being here and learning aboutmuch..including this issue.

                I will stay, and I will post if I feel like it.  Until such time as I beCome someone who has nothing to contribute to thIS spot, ANYHOW.  yoU CAN TAKE ME OR LEAVE ME, i DO NOT CARE.

                Now that I have said my peice, try hard to understand us women..what ever we are and who we are like we are asked to understand you guys....I will respect you if you respect me.  otherwise...well, you know what I mean...it is a 2-way street here Hon.

                •  btw, Kos, I ran across your site (3.50)
                  by accident and likes it when I came here.  I did not expect you to be everything to me or anyone else.  I think you are taking this all wrong.
                  I can see why you are agitated.  You are after all just a young man who has a wife who happens to have a mind of her own.  I just ask you to be open minded to others and their feelings on issues.  I have to be...why not you??  I accepted your apology; however it is you that will not let lying dogs lie.  I want to suggest we all get a grip here...this is being taken way out of context...Just remember the origional diary and what many have had to say.

                  I have even got discusted with it.  

                  BTW, you are not everything to me...I do have a life.  and I will go on in my life, no matter if youare around or not.  This is just a means for me to vent and it saved me from being so damn frustrated in politics that I was becoming nerotic at a point in this whole political thing.

                  If you really want to discuss womens issues, then maybe it is about time we do such.  I mean really open and even handed debate.  That is something I think most of you guys do not want to have...I see it scare you to death let alone to adress.  I have seen it here with my very own eyes.  

                  •  some democrats and most republicans are (none)
                    hypocrits for not really openly discussing womens issues...it is men who want to tell women what to think and do with their lives...It is men who have address the abortion issue..it is men who have addressed the womens health issue...it is men who have just about dominated the womens issues of everything.  some women fall in line with those men and say what ever they say is fine with me...ie, mrs. dole..and ht elike of her.  they do not have an origional thought in their pretty little heads...I was so angry with babs bush when she came out and said her mind was tooooo beautiful to even think of dead in time of war...remember that when she came out and said things like that...I condem her for that statement...who does she think she is...I know none of her loved ones will die in a war..therefore she will nto even begine to think of death in that manner...shame on her an dothers who are of that mind thought...see, I can come oup with things that you guys have dismissed a long time ago. I have remained silent for way tooo long for you to not give me a say on what is in my heart and what is on my mind.  Who give you that right...surely not me...Ihave found my voice and you can not shut me up...If I have to I can take it to my vote for someone who is closed minded, like my congressman.  He is so stupic an dhe is a democrat.  It burns my butt to have him do some of the stupid things he does.  I wil not ever vote for him again...
                    •  ....and Kos, do not tell me about harold ford, (none)
                      Bub, I happen to live int he state he comes from and I think that give me some idea of who the man really is.  I detest someone who thinks they know everything about everything.  

                      I have got to get to work...I just had to rant this am and get this off my heart. Why should women leave here?....I ask you why...cuz they do not agree with you...cuz they are woman...cuz they are a minority....cuz we are to be the weaker sex...I ask you to personally search your hearts and really find legit answers for me by the time I come back...I will stay and fight with you if you want me...but if you do not want me by our side, I know many that would...It is YOUR decision....Think about it and stew about it and get angry if you must...but really ask yourseves what is your true motive here...I really want to know....I will not let you are anyone else abuse me like I hve been inthe past...I do not have to take any more..if you really knew me, I am very sure you would love me to death...I am your grandmother, youdo remember those dont you?????  I pray on a daily basis that you men wake up and give some of my aruguments a thought today...I am a very sincere and loving person...you might even take a liken into me if you learn to hear me and listen to me and see for yourself what you want to see in me...not what others have said about women and me..I am open minded on things...I give othrs the benefit of the doubt....I try to stay on message...I treat othrs as I would want to be treated.  

                •  This might sound ******** (none)
                  but I think you have a very "Americanized" view of the world.

                  Which is fine, because we are in America.

                  However, I like Plutonium Page's points in the Pie Fight because I think that our culture is a little bit underdeveloped and immature.  I liked the contrast of European vs. American sexuality.  Place me firmly in the European camp.  Gay porn, straight porn, guns, loud neighbors, right wing hate djs, rap music, even SUVS to an extent-very little offends me except for creating more terrorists by killing innocent people in hegemonic actions...but I realize, that's just my perspective.

                  It's funny because I'm no dazzling cosmopolitan but you'll see me harsh (and I do mean harsh) on anyone (including fellow Kossites) who wants to step on your reproductive rights...yet I get thrown into the "frat boy" subjugation by a whole slew of people that don't know me?  If only people knew about the savage fights I get into defending abortion.  On many other sites, in many other places....  

                  Hmmm.  I've never been a frat boy, but our 2 presidential candidates were....

                  It is a 2 way street.  The fact that some posters seem to focus on men as the sole cause of this problem is wrong.  For whatever reasons you want to label, a portion of women (and a number of men) feel they have to "buy in" to a culture that demands youth and beauty.  Just look at the bottom lines for the beauty industry.  So I'm saying, blame your co-horts (other women) as much as me, if you need lay blame....  Madison Ave. is as responsible for our "ideas" as our parents, in my opinion, maybe moreso for many, but ultimately, the individual is responsible....

                  Yet, where do we draw the line?  Is a haircut "beautification" and appropriate?

                  "You can't awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."-Navajo saying.

                  by quartzite on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 09:47:26 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  To top it off (4.00)
        The voice and most of these weeklies are owned by fairly substantial corporations whereas Markos blogs from his house.

        Their revenue is in the millions where as markos makes enough for his own family.

        Again, it astounds me that you do not see the hypocrisy.

        The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

        by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:35:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  allow me to expand (none)
          First so you don't put the wrong parameters on what I'm saying.

          I don't believe that Kos has a responsibility to take down the ad.  I do think the people asking for the ad to be taken down have a point.  Simply because they feel an emotional attachment to the community, that they might not tend to feel for their local weekly.  And I think there's plenty of room for Kos to respond to that emotional attachment by taking the ad down.  As a favor and gesture.  Not as an expectation.

          Kos can also respond by saying that folks don't have the right to feel that level of ownership over the community standards.  As he did.  But it doesn't mean that it by definition prevents him from taking the ad down.  It'd be voluntary, but I also think it would be classy.

          Now, do I think it is weird for someone to get all high and mighty and indignant about the ad soiling one's screenspace if they don't give a progressive weekly ad a second thought?  Yeah.  Cherry-picked indignance bugs me much the same as it seems to bug you.

          But like I said, I'd prefer the ads be gone from both places, rather than have them be present at both.  

          Politology.US - Politics and Technology in the United States

          by tunesmith on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:44:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And (none)
            I am for the eradication of world hunger.

            Sorry for the snark, but see, when Summers was an issue here, because I made it one, the women of dailykos were not in force on the frontlines with me.

            So it is hard for me to take this issue too far with them.

            This is the straw that breaks the camel's back?

            There is something way suspicious in that.

            The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

            by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:51:09 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  curious (none)
              Yeah, I have engaged with you regarding your repeated allusions to the protests being insincere or suspicious.

              I honestly am not sure what you are saying.  What's your theory of what is really going on here?

              Not asking to challenge, I'm honestly curious what you think.

              As for the other matter, I think it's fine - and rational - to invest extra energy in a smaller battle you think you might win when the bigger battle is so big that you know you can't win.

              Politology.US - Politics and Technology in the United States

              by tunesmith on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:02:36 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  (typo) (none)
                (I meant "haven't" in the first sentence above.)

                Politology.US - Politics and Technology in the United States

                by tunesmith on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:07:21 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  What motivated the protest? (none)
                I dunno.

                Are some using the brouhaha for their own agenda? I think so.

                Smaller battles? This ad is not even a dustup. The fucking ad is running on TV!

                So is it about dailykos? That is why? Then my question returns, before there was a dailykos, there was a Village Voice, and the Village Voice has basically run ads for porn for years.

                Where is the outrage?

                There is something not right about this whole thing.

                The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

                by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:10:24 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  yeah (none)
                  interesting.

                  as for the voice, I can't speak for others.  But see my comment about it in mcjoan's thread - I stopped reading most prog-weeklies  ages ago, partly for that reason.  It wasn't simply that I got all puritanical about the ads in the back, it was just that those ads being so pervasive, combined with the general tone of the writing, just contributed to an overall feel that I found really unattractive.  Snark is fine as a spice, but when it's your main narrative voice... ugh.

                  I also don't listen to Air America for the same sorts of reasons.  

                  Politology.US - Politics and Technology in the United States

                  by tunesmith on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:19:59 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Dont think it was about the ad for most (4.00)
                  I think it was about a Kos comment combined with a lot of comments from posters that were or were seen as "mysogonistic", "anti-women" and "sexist".
                  I think the Ad thing may have started the "debate" but what caused the anger and exodus was what happened later.
                  Just my interpretation from what I have read here and on other sites.  
                •  simple (none)
                  it is about "which issue is getting single issued out?"

                  that's it.

                  I'm getting bored of it, as much as I do obviously care, because maybe it's just a blog and not a political organization.

                •  People feel personally betrayed by Markos (4.00)
                  That's the difference. Nobody feels personally betrayed by the Villiage Voice. Nobody gives a personal shit about the VV.

                  When a friend tells people I'm a gigantic asshole of a socially-awkward fat man (with a computer), that hurts in a way that the same words, from some random idiot doesn't.

                  Problem is, people give Markos too much credit. They want to think he speaks for them, for us. They feel he's a spokesman, not just a webgeek. So a disagreement like this is quite painful. They're feeling disrepected by someone they respect--that's tough to deal with. But there's no hidden agenda, and no hypocrisy.

                  The real question is, why is this topic so much more fun than all the political issues of the day? Yay, pie!

                  Let there be sharks - TracieLynn

                  by GussieFN on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 05:23:10 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  There were plenty (none)
                of people who were honestly offended by the ad. But there was definately a contingent who only wanted to fan the flames, probably for some other slight. Plus there were a few trolls who decided this was their dream come true. Fuck with the highest trafficed democratinc site on the web.
                •  maybe (none)
                  I saw the earlier version, I guess, but all I knew of this was what markos wrote.

                  So that's the out of the blue part.  The anger at the sanctimonious women's studies set is the revelation.

                  Hey... I'm not taking it as a big thing.  Everyone has faults... that's my philosophy, I can handle it.  But choose a metaphor, the ball is in whose court, who wants whom, what is the purpose of dkos as an organization, as a community.

                  Honestly I'm not enforcing answers.  I'm very cynical about all these issues... like Neil Young looking for the heart of gold.

                •  No, you are not getting it... (4.00)
                  People, including women Kossacks, weren't half as offended by the ad as they were by Kos' remarks.

                  I could live the ad, within reason, because it wasn't about me.  Do I like it?  Hell, no.  I hate it on TV.  It's jiggle shit.

                  Kos' responses to his wife are not the issue.  (It also doesn't prove he likes women, either.)

                  I also understand that Kos wants to make money for his blog.  To me, that's not the issue either.

                  It's Kos' responses to other women that is the issue.  To many others, it was the feather that broke the camel's back., which why certain women responded so angrily.

                  This is not some forearmed 'contingent.'  These were women who eschewed for months a lot of what they perceived as guff that they wished they hadn't have to deal with in order to interact with other progressive Dems.  That's loyalty in a way.  Loyalty that isn't even talked about here.  Loyalty that gives money, time and word of mouth to other Dems.

                  I think that this dust-up is also generational.  I'm in my early fifties.  I don't mind putting my intellectual hat on and redefining what is sexist or what is desire cum advertising for me. Feminists since the early 1980s (before some of you guys were even BORN or conscious) have been trying to bring this redefinition of feminism's responses to these issues to the mainstream for years.

                  However, lumping all feminists together without a clear understanding of about who believes what and more importantly why is like rolling over someone's feet with a car.  Those who read about the past don't have the same experiences as those who live/d it.  There is a limit.

                  Telling people that they should start their own blog is not necessarily the answer.  Saying that you refuse to understand because it's your blog is not the answer either.  Of course, it sounds like my way or the highway.  Repubs aren't the only ones who preach this line.

                  Just my two cents.

                  One-fifth of the people are against everything all the time.--Bobby Kennedy

                  by blksista on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 03:42:12 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I think you are right (none)
                    all down the line. I thought Markos' initial reaction was pretty damn bad and said so in numerous threads yesterday. I'm also not comfortable throwing issues over the side, although I've never seen him say that as much as I've seen him say that there are times that they shouldn't be so forcefully pushed.

                    But my point in this comment was that there were some people who would not allow people to be reasonable on this yesterday. No matter what was said or who was saying it, a small group of people were jumping in to fan the flames.

                    •  Well, just like another poster on another thread (4.00)
                      tried to rationalize Kos' responses from getting jerked around off-blog by angry e-mails, there are people who are still angry and those who are probably agents provacateurs even from the wingnuts trying to kill DailyKos.

                      As you probably have figured out, I don't buy the rationalization for Kos' popping off either.  It was puerile.  There was a way in which Kos could have dealt with his anger and been able to mollify the real anger and disgust from male and female Kossacks from reaching critical mass.  It's apparent he doesn't have those skillz.

                      Well, it's over now.  He lost his chance, and possibly some really great people.  Maybe he and some of you other cats will learn something over this and other issues. But maybe not.

                      Have I decided to leave DailyKos?  Not at this time, and really, I have a novel to finish. I think going back and forth among DailyKos and some other feminist blogs might do it for me.

                      I am, however, getting pretty tired of not only educating people about racism, but about sexism, too.  Over and over again.  And when you tell people over and over again, it is much more about their not wanting to change or disturb their comfort level.

                      Just my two cents.

                      One-fifth of the people are against everything all the time.--Bobby Kennedy

                      by blksista on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 04:41:00 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  If people don't like the ads, (none)
                  they can subscribe and not look at the ads. I am thinking of subscribing since not having the ads will make the pages load faster..always a plus. And the subscription will diminish the need for the ads we don't care for. If all the posters were subscribers, Kos wouldn't need ads. Or at least, not ones like that. Right??

                  What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

                  by Demfem on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 08:38:13 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  this is? (4.00)
              Armando... it's not the ad, it's "the sanctimonious woman's studies set"!  strikeout or not.

              as for the Summers thing, I was/am on your side and I saw a lot of the women going "eh", perhaps not as much as you say but sure, whatever... that's how they felt about that issue.

              You are speaking as though they are bound to be reactive on women's issues.

              Assume they didn't mind Summers... that's not the best example, but especially since it's not just this ad, it's the response there.

              The ad is like the spark of this wild fire.

              I'm realizing, much after reacting I have to admit, that I probably didn't read the original debates on this, and certainly nothing sent to markos, so who knows how it escalates... not me, I only know the part I've seen.

          •  There are women of dailykos (3.20)
            Women kossacks, who say the site and markos are deliberately anti-women.

            That is a vile lie.

            There is a lot of sin in what is being done in the name of protesting this.

             

            The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

            by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:53:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yeah, I noticed that (none)
              here and at Booman when I perused the site earlier. I'm sure his wife will be surprised.
            •   sin...? (none)
              those Jezebels
            •  anti-women (3.50)
              I haven't seen the allegations that the site is deliberately anti-women, but I'd think they were ridiculous too if I saw them.  Accidental bias against women would be a good discussion, but deliberate is just kinda silly.  dailykos being deliberate about almost anything is kinda silly.

              Politology.US - Politics and Technology in the United States

              by tunesmith on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:04:33 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Indeed (none)
                Take a look.

                The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

                by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:12:12 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Accidental bias (none)
                It is silly to think the dkos community could totally avoid the sexism, racism and other isms of the larger society.

                I think Kos's new statement is much better. I don't think he needs to apologize profusely in public. As someone said above it would be nice if we all could admit to ourselves that we may unconsciously hold these attitudes too.

                I remember reading letters to the editor in the Village Voice complaining about the porn ads. I haven't seen one recently, but I bet the alternative weeklies receive complaints on a fairly regular basis.

                Accidental (unconscious) bias can be displayed in deliberate actions. Statements that dismiss other people's concerns are generally not well received.

                I'm heating up some apple pie for breakfast

            •  a lie? (none)
              you use that word way too easily.

              this is rhetoric you are talking about.

            •  PROVE IT! (none)
              Show me where it said that Markos or the whole goddamn DailyKos as a whole was deliberately anti-women? I have been in those discussions and NO, that is a lie.

              But I can tell you this. Markos' definition of the netroots and his alleged commitment to growing them are not aligned with his actions. It takes more than telling people, go make your own site. It takes more than just saying "I'm committed" when he has more resources --and no I am not talking just about money-- at his disposal.

              There is no tactical vision when you say 3 things are the only "important shit" to write about. Markos did not apologize for that comment because you and I know that he does not consider identity politics important at all.

              But the issue here is not for him to write about that. The issue here is to acknowledge that it is part of a bigger picture, a bigger discourse. That this is the place,  this DailyKos that is not about him anymore, is the place to come and brainstorm, write and discuss and about those issues and because they have a CONTEXT within the larger battles.

              Y'all have no strategic nor tactical vision when it comes to the netroots. You have no battle plan and THAT is the problem. Not this bullshit about hurting some little girls' feelings.

            •  Armando (none)
              I really don't mean to be a diary whore, but I asked kos to have a look at this below, and I'd like to respectfully ask that you take a gander (no pun intended) as well.
    •  I'll just add that (4.00)
      whoever it was who created the damn pie ad(s) probably just got a promotion and a corner office. Talk about advertising that makes an impression.

      And don't think for a second that Madison Avenue gives a flying fuck whether or not that impression is good or bad. I was blissfully ignorant of a Gilligan's Island reality show remake until people started to complain about boobs. I sure hope those brain cells weren't destined for something great, like ... oh ... defeating the GOP in '06 and '08.

      BUSH: Like a rock...but dumber.
      Stewart/Olberman 2008!

      by mugsimo on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:34:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Those publications pay content providers (none)
      They are not, therefore, in danger of losing a substantial fraction of what brings in the readers by running the ads. In that sense, Markos decision to keep the TBS spot fails not as a moral choice, but as a poor business decision, made worse by the disrespectful tone with which he dismissed the complaints.

      I am not currently Licensed to Practice in this State. Or Yours.

      by ben masel on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 02:18:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Remain to be seen (none)
        but you don't know the factors that make this business run.

        Like the big one that "more people" doesn't equal "more money".

        •  Fair. (4.00)
          Care to elaborate? (Not necessarily here and now, an explanation of the economics of a site on your scale would make an interesting post when you're in the mood.)

          I am not currently Licensed to Practice in this State. Or Yours.

          by ben masel on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 02:53:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  not kos here (none)
            I worked for an online service in 1992 on and we were sort of experimental and every user actually cost us money.  We used to joke getting rid of all the users would be our best move.

            of course, kos most likely is just refering to the fact that he doesn't automatically get a better ad rate when usage goes up, especially if it spikes...

            come to think of it, he's probably saying this wild fire is deluging the server farm.

            everyone, stop posting!

        •  It's Hard Work (none)
          (I couldn't resist the snark)

          No, we don't know.  We don't know because, at some level, we are not part of the process.  Not even subscribers take part:

          "What do subscribers get? To be honest, the benefits list is pretty short:

          The ability to turn off advertising"

          Unlike the donors to a non-profit or the stockholders of a corporation, participants in this site have no knowledge of how this business runs.  As far as advertisers are concerned, we are consumers of your product to whom they can market their ads.

          For some reason, the people who visit this site have felt like they are something other than consumers of your business.  By creating a space where people can not only share political opinions but enforce common norms (through troll rating), you've enabled a community to flourish.  Kossacks have developed a sense of ownership of this site.  This whole ad flap has made many people question their place in this community, especially when they have been reminded that it is your business.

          "... I love watching you work. But I've got ... my wedding to arrange, my wife to murder and Gilder to frame for it. I'm swamped." The Princess Bride

          by Rusty Pipes on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 06:48:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Although I don't like the TBS ad (none)
        There is no doubt in my mind that this ad is good for kos as a business.  I'm betting that the ad is the most popular on on dailykos and it raises his ad click-thru numbers to possibly raise his rates going forward.  

        And kos can't help it if the Feminazis and fluffy women's studies people are out to get him.  Why would a progressive care about studying women?  Or gender?  Or race?  Or any of that crap?  It's much easier to throw all that under the table and blame those radicals for stirring up trouble than to try to understand where "those people" are coming from.

        •  I have read this stuff for too long (3.25)
          And I cannot take it anymore.  Do you really think Republicans would take this much time and effort to argue about something this stupid?  This is the problem with the party. No one cares about unity they just care about their pet issues and mock outrage.  If the democratic party could focus on real issues and not on fucking over each other we would have had health care for children long ago.  

          I am sure peole will say that I am a pig who is just not trying to understand women but give me a fucking break.  If you really care about womens issues why don't you try to fight for women's issues that matter and not stupid shit.  

          Women are being subjagated all over the world.  I care about that.  Women do not get equal pay for equal work.  I care about that.  

          What I do not care about is this bullshit.      

    •  and the onion, (none)
      and the daily show.  
    •  Not going to happen (none)
      I'm going to guess that you're being sarcastic but then respond just in case you're not.

      How are you going to tell them what ads they can run? Why don't you start your own "vice free" blog and progressive paper. As long as the advertisers think it is effective to advertise in those papers, sites, etc they will continue. Unless you can convince the rest of the progressives (and conservatives) to stop buying pornography they will continue to advertise. Would you rather there be no Village Voice or progressive weeklies? Fox news and Rush's morning radio show would be more than willing to take those advertising dollars.

  •  Even you have to admit (3.16)
    that there is a difference bewteen being "the end-all, be-all of liberal blogging" and down right insulting members of your community and promoting a devisive environment.
    •  I don't care (4.00)
      if Markos insults us individually or collectively, as long as he allows me and the others to insult him back if the situation warrants it.  So far he's done so.  It's his sandbox.  Seems to me he lets people kick sand around pretty much at will.

      I see this whole pie-fight and some of the other assorted screamfests as another example of the typical liberal circular firing squad.  I left PFAW for the same reason.  There's no need to start it up in here.  While we fight, I hear the spectral laughter of Karl Rove echoing through the political cosmos.

      Tighten up.

      •  you missed the second part (none)
        which was more worrisome...he created a devisive environment hostile to certain members of this community.
        •  Yeah, I missed it, (4.00)
          but it's not like he hasn't gotten irritated and a little pissy ever before.  As do we all sometimes, and yes, his voice is a little more amplified than most of ours, but I'd rather he still be human than be some over-processed professional always conscious of what he has to lose.
        •  Sounded to me like (1.75)
          he told the whiners to grow up.

          "Whatever they want the answer is no. Now is not the time to fold, now is the time to up the ante." -- Charles Pierce

          by baba durag on Tue Jun 07, 2005 at 11:58:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  In fairness, (3.94)
          I perused the diaries before Kos' post, having missed them the first time. People were making some seriously offensive and over-the-top comments on both sides of the debate from the start, mainly through the rather infantile sorting the Kossack pile into "good" and "bad" Kossacks through the prism of this one issue. That isn't appropriate, on either side.

          Kos' mistake was to (1) publicly take sides, and (2) respond to some of the worst invective with a rude post of his own. That is regrettable, but I find it difficult to get too worked up about it, given the language with which he and others were being attacked.

          My own decision on where to come down on this issue came after I saw longtime respected kossacks like Plutonium Page, Frank, and MSOC having some lovely choice insults hurled their way for choosing "the wrong side". Nobody is going to get far with me in gleefully having a flame-war, then yelping when they themselves get burned in the process.

          Yes, Kos got angry and said some things he shouldn't have said and didn't, in hindsight, mean. If there's anyone who can honestly say they've never done the same, I'd be happy to meet them. Well, not really; I'd probably find them insufferable.

          •  It became a slugfest (none)
            as so many controvercial issues have. And as usual that meant there needed t be 100+ diaries on the subject.

            I can see the point of some of the people offended and unfortunately they also got hit with some pretty offencive comments. There were people just looking for a fight and they made sure to disrupt anyone attempting to work it out. They decided a playground fight was a better use of their time.

          •  Fuck you (4.00)
            you  . . . oh wait, you're on my side of the argument.

            Nevermind.

            The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

            by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:48:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  suddenly (none)
            I feel calm.

            I'm sure it will pass.

          •  Hunter (none)
            I'm bookmarking this comment (now named "Hunter On Pie" in my pc) and will link to it in every subsequent pie hole I land in over the next few weeks.
            Yes, Kos got angry and said some things he shouldn't have said and didn't, in hindsight, mean. If there's anyone who can honestly say they've never done the same, I'd be happy to meet them. Well, not really; I'd probably find them insufferable.
            Beautiful.

            Even after all these years, I still accidentally leave the seat up once in awhile.  Thankfully, those who know me also know I never do it on purpose.  Markos is much younger than I, just a boy in my book, and missed the early seat battles.  I think he probably gets it now.

      •  We call each other out (none)
        Which is both a strength and a weakness.  It definitely weakens our ability to create a unified and assimilated message, which is ultimately something that we need to present because the American people embrace clarity over substance.

        At the same time, calling each other out when we've done something wrong is a sign of accountability.  In that respect, I think it's a potential strength because it keeps us from forgetting the little people or for becoming too insulated from the outside world.  Being progressive means fighting not only for certain concepts, but for changing the world and changing people's lives in a positive fashion.  That kind of work creates personal conflict.

        Put another way, if a struggle has no internal conflict, I'm wary about the types of changes that it makes.  Look at the machine-like efficiency of the Rove Machine and tell me that this is a system that you would philosophically want in our government, even outside of the horrific decisions that are made as a result.

    •  "Divisive" (3.63)
      seems to be "I disagree with some people". Well, I will. I will part ways with members of the community on any number of issues. And sometimes, I won't be diplomatic about it because, frankly, I don't walk on egg shells.

      I won't apologize for that, nor will I censor myself to become "vanilla offend-no-one Markos". Quite frankly, I don't care if I offend people. When I do so unintentionally, then it bothers me (like I did by painting to broad a condemnation). Otherwise, it doesn't bother me. It doesn't bother me if John Kerry supporters think I'm a big meanie anti-Kerry asshole, it doesn't bother me if some people think running that TBS ad is "non-progressive".

      We can agree to disagree, or not. Am I a big asshole? I can be. Am I PC? Hell no. Am I perfect? No. Do I apologize for any of that? No.

      •  Right on, Dude. (4.00)
        Maybe this will finally put all the Pie crap to rest. I hope.

        I donated to ePluribus Media. Support citizen journalism!

        by Mber on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:00:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What ever... (2.70)
        If you think it is cool to piss off women... yeah that is your perogative.
        •  You know, that pi$$es me more than kos (4.00)
          I'm a women. I don't like when someone else pretends to speak for me, i.e. for all women. This arrogance pi$$es me way more than kos' nickname for women issues.

          You are pissed, you are hurt, want to say so, fine. Just don't put your words on my mouth.

          We should not use public money to support the further destruction of human life - GW Bush, 5/25/2005, WH East Room

          by lawnorder on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:30:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sweety I am not pretending to speak for you (1.83)
            Just from your last two comments I could list a whole lot of things that piss me off about you... but I won't because that would be divisive... wouldn't it.

            See cuz I won't apologize for that, nor will I censor myself to become "vanilla offend-no-one TrubluDem". Quite frankly, I don't care if I offend people. We can agree to disagree, or not. Am I a big asshole? I can be. Am I PC? Hell no. Am I perfect? No. Do I apologize for any of that? No

            So you can go have your faux tantrum elsewhere...

      •  Admirable sentiments ... (4.00)
        ... But you're pounding out your independence over a pie ad???  Aren't there smarter things to be hardarsed about?
        •  Well, like it or not (2.57)
          dailykos may now be referred to as the liberal site that's using porn ads to attract a wider audience.

          I mean, ultimately Markos is responsible for how he and dailyKos is perceived. And yes, it is up to him to accomodate or not accomodate a friendly and respectful environment here. Due to Markos stubborness on this issue he's driving people away - people that by their contributions have provided an enlarged readership and thereby status to Markos. And he's throwing it all away.

          Love it or leave it? I've been loving it for years, now I guess I'm leaving it. My last request is that Markos provide me with a possibility to officially unregister.

          Restore Democracy!

          by high5 on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 02:21:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  do you boycott all media (none)
            that has adds like that... because I think that is almost all media.
            •  I avoid them yes, (none)
              but more to the point; why I'm leaving is not the ad itself. Rather it's the disrespect shown lately to the very people who've provided most of the best content to this site.

              Restore Democracy!

              by high5 on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 04:33:54 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well... (none)
                what can I say, some of my favorites like Page and McJoan are staying....I'll be sad to see others go, but hey, if you feel that put out by a website....

                I guess what gets me is the "projection" aspect, that I get accused of being a "frat boy" because I'm not offended by the ad.

                Also, I think that a huge point that's being missed is the number of women (and men, too) who buy into this quasi-porn yet Victorian sexuality society and have ** jobs, botox, muscle implants, goo (creams and gels), products, perfume, etc.  I think the discussion could have been about "beauty in culture" and as well, I feel that as many women are selling out their own side (sorority girls?)....

                I truly wish the Pie Fight could have turned into a "Steve Gilliard" type discussion which means a larger discussion rather than focused into "you're with us or against us."

                "You can't awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."-Navajo saying.

                by quartzite on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 10:08:30 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  huh? (none)
            dailykos may now be referred to as the liberal site that's using porn ads to attract a wider audience.

            A. The ad is not porn. If you're calling it porn you have never seen any and could be equated to Dobson's group with that kind of hyperbol.

            B. The ad is not bringing people to dKos. The opposite is true.

      •  cool (2.16)
        So, in addition to not being able to distinguish between disagreeing and being disagreeable, you are also a self-described loud and proud unapologetic sexist asshole?

        How original.... and how sad.

        Say hello to David Horowitz when you get there.

      •  Wow. (2.71)
        I feel like we're having a conversation wtih Bob Novak, the way the issue keeps getting purposely ingored.

        The issue is, I can't understand the thinking behind a nasty, unnecessary front-page smack down to a big part of this community.  There was no reason for it.  

        Maybe you don't want to have a community here, just random posters, even though it kind of seemed that you were encouraging community.  Fine.  Then start banning the "sets" that are causing the site to degrade into a community.

        And, Bob, for the last time, no one is saying we hate America.  No one is saying we hate the troops, Bob.  No one is saying we think you should bend over backwards to please all 50,000 users.  If I read on more comment saying that's the issue I'm going to barf.

        Every Man for himself.

        by JLFinch on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:42:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  you painted too broad a condemnation? (4.00)
        that's nice to hear, I thought so too, good of you to admit it.

        It's fair enough to say you issue priorities are just your own, of course.  No doubt some will lament that you are not as much an ally as they would like but such is life.  For my part, I think that it may be a big mistake... at least overall the progressive coalition MUST have a strong foundation in women's issues.

        Women are the future of politics... more and more influence.

        •  Well, (3.33)
          Did I ever say women's issues aren't important? That was the whole point of this post -- that because I don't talk about an issue, it doesn't mean it's not important.

          I don't have to talk about EVERY issue for that issue to be important.

          And haven't I said, from the first post, that I was sorry that I used such broad language?

          •  You did (none)
            It serves the purpose of some, NYCO for instance, tp pretend otherwise.

            The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

            by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 08:09:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  You're the leader. (none)
            This is your site, you can post whatever you want, you can accept whatever ads you want.

            But since you are the leader, people will follow your leads. So if you don't write about an issue, people will (wrongly in this case) think you don't think the issue is important. If you write about Jon Tester all the time, people will think it's REALLY important that Tester wins. And if you use harsh language towards a view which you think is stupid, other people will get hostile to whoever supports the view in question.

            This is your site, and you can write whatever you want. I am simply telling you how other people are acting as a result.

          •  I didn't pick up the apology until... (none)
            in these comments.

            But I've heard it now.  

          •  Latecomer's comments (none)
            I totally missed the beginning of this because 1) I blinked and did something else for a day; 2) I don't see the ads because I use PithHelmet for Safari; 3) I habitually do not read posts about the site because I come here for content far more than community. That said ...

            Kos, thanks for saying you are sorry. I think we all need to recognize that given the brickbats flying around here, that is not easy.

            Of course you don't have to write about every issue. No one can. You write in various ways about making the lumbering Democratic coalition into a party that wins again. Many of us believe that it is central to that project that women really feel NOT support for "womens issues" but confidence that what are called "women's issues" are internalized by the party at large. And we get scared when we think we are being pushed off to a corner. Fifty percent (or usually more in the electorate) is not a special interest constituency; so-called "womens issues" touch all us who aren't living in a bubble, whether as women, as chidlren of mothers, as lovers of women, as parents of daughters, etc.

            Democrats don't have 100 percent agreement on what women want -- so we talk about it. This too is part of the process. Bruising, but needed.

        •  the future (4.00)
          This is Markos' blog.  He pays the bills and he can control the content.  I certainly don't have a problem with that.

          If, however, dailykos evolves into a men's forum, he'll understand if it ceases to be a serious and reflective voice for the democratic party, which strives to be inclusive.

      •  Not a 'big meanie anti-Kerry' asshole (4.00)
        but a 'short-sighted self-abusive sub-moronic egotistical' anti-Kerry asshole. Get the terms right.

        Thing is, who cares what kind of asshole Markos is? As long as he's not the kind who bans you for calling him an asshole (which he very much is not), who gives a shit? There are two distinct entities, Markos and the Daily Kos site, and the latter is more important than the former.

        People who feel betrayed by Markos invested way too much in him. He's just some random guy who has a way with online communities, who developed the biggest and the best left-leaning blog. I don't give a shit if he respects me--why would I?

        I guess I'm the very last person on the site to realize that one of the subtexts here is the behavior of a male authority figure? Our own patriarch? If I knew my feminist theory, I'd have something intelligent to say about this ...

        Let there be sharks - TracieLynn

        by GussieFN on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 05:38:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  who's blog (none)
          Agreed. However, it seems strange to me that someone would call him a "short sighted self abusive sub moronic..." when he's helped get this place going. Could a "sub moronic" person start this or especially a "short sighted" person? You're not making sense. That's worse than me making fun of some star for being less attractive than another star when they are usually both exceptional compared to the people insulting them.

          I've only been using the site recently so maybe I'm just still thankful to have a place like this but that's just outrageous to call this guy "sub moronic".

      •  Yeah... (4.00)
        Well, y'see, Kos....i don't think that ANY of us have fully identified the real root(s) of this whole pie fight in a teapot.

        I mean...it has grown from some people speaking about their negative reactions to seeing an ad promoting an (unfortunately mainstream, business-as-usual-in-America) sexist, brainless jiggle show on this fairly serious left-wing blog to an ongoing flame war where people are leaving the blog over THEIR reactions to reactions to OTHER reactions about this little, meaningless fluff piece.

        Which points to one fact above all others.

        It was NOT a fluff piece, this ad and the acceptance of it, and it was not meaningless. The massive set of reactions to it ARE the meaning.

        So...why all the fuss?

        Is it the "mean-spirited women's studies" division's fault for being so dour and anti-joy?

        Is it the "nasty sexist male pigs in rut" that have brought this all about?

        Naaaaahhhhh...deep as the sexism issue is, it is only PART of what has gone wrong with America. The continuing carnage in the Middle East (and elsewhere in the third world over the past 50 years) is a MUCH larger issue, as is the seemingly almost complete apathy of Middle America to ALL of these issues.

        So...what has really happened here?

        Once again...let's follow the money.

        Would it have occurred to you to accept an ad for...say some sort of blatantly racist show? Like maybe a revisionist history of the Ku Klux Klan? I think not. I mean...that's SERIOUS, right? And this little piece of Gilligan's Island poof is NOT serious. Besides which...a documentary of that sort would not make it past the review boards of the networks. Not even FOX would take it THAT far. (Not yet, at least. ANOTHER "4 more years" twice of these people might make even THAT a possibility. But I digress...)

        How about an ad for...a campaign for the re-election of someone like Rick Santorum?  Or even Joe Lieberman? Where would YOU draw the line?

        For that matter...and this is just a rhetorical question, because it is none of our business HOW you conduct your business, really...where HAVE you drawn the line in the past? If indeed you have. Maybe you have taken an "I will take ANYONE'S money in order to sustain this site" approach, working on the assumption that the potential audience ITSELF would act as an adequate screen for regresssive advertising.

        So once again...why all the fuss?

        And the only thing that I can come to...the ONE thing that has been very rarely mentioned in all the back-and-forth about this subject so far....is that it is not really  "about" sexism on ANY level.

        It is about CULTURALISM. It is about the attack on the American CULTURE that has been (quite successfully) mounted by the corporate body over the past fifty years.

        Longer.

        In the pursuit of ratings and short term profit, mainstream American culture has been progressively downsized and trivialized to a lowest-common-denominator mentality that is literally KILLING THIS COUNTRY.

        Here is the last of a series of definitions of the word "culture" in the Merriam Webster Online Dictionary.

        culture:
        6 : cultivation of living material in prepared nutrient media

        (Really. You could look it up.)

        And there it is. Complete, right to the word "media".

        Nice.

        Cultivation of living material in prepared nutrient media.

        They have replaced the nutritive content of the media in which THIS culture grows...this AMERICAN culture...with a hodgepodge of artificial  ingredients that, although they DO "feed" that culture, do so in the same way that artificial nutrients produce tasteless tomatoes.

        And beyond ALL of the "political" arguments that generally propel this site...THAT is the MAIN problem with what is happening in America.

        The culture ITSELF is being deprived of the nutrients necessary for its continued health and growth.

        I proposed an idea that I called NEWSTRIKE!!! a few weeks back, the idea being that if "we" all started withholding our money from the corporate media and their advertisers it would FORCE them to stop stonewalling the almost weekly anti-BushCo issues that arise here and elsewhere on the left blogoshere.

        Went over like a lead balloon, THAT idea, and I realized that the addiction to "media"...to the POISONOUS content of that media, much like the addiction of a junkie to poisonous drugs...had too strong a hold on most of the members of even the most "progressive" segments of the left to allow them to even consider that idea.

        Soon thereafter...PIEFIGHT!!! came about.

        And dKos erupted in an internecine battle that has begun to look like a bunch of fish shooting each OTHER in a barrel.

        Why?

        My only answer is that in an unconscious (or at BEST semi-conscious) way, lots of people here reacted negatively to the idea that this prime example of non-nutritive media would be advertised on a site that has as its aim a sort of rebirth of the American spirit.

        They each couched it in different terms....various reactions to the idea of "sexism" being by FAR the largest...but that was the real root of this whole brouhaha.

        And if YOU made a mistake, Markos...besides reacting in an almost pre-programmed way to the "sexism" charges (You probably spend a lot of time with YOUR head in the media too.)...that was what it was.

        You accepted advertising from an outlet for that is a PRIME example of the sewage that is being touted as nutrients for our "culture". A sewage that is in fact POISONING that culture.

        And THAT...that IS a mistake, sir.

        And a large one.

        So I hereby go whole hog plus postage once AGAIN...I'm just that kind of guy, I guess...and propose an extension of that
        NEWSTRIKE!!! idea.

        MEDIASTRIKE!!!

        C'mon, Kos and the rest of you.

        Why not!!!???

        Stop supporting the media in ANY way.

        At least those parts of the media that (in your own individual estimations) promote the dispersal of poisonous "nutrients" into our collective cultural blood stream.

        MEDIASTRIKE!!!

        Now THERE'S an idea whose time has REALLY come!!!

        Think about it.

        Or...just turn on the tube tonight when you get home from work and watch whatever crap is on there in a sort of blessed fog.

        "THEY can't get through to ME!!! I'M too PROGRESSIVE!!!"

        "You are getting very sleeeeeepy...."

        "ZZZZzzzzzzzz..."

        "PIEFIGHT!!!"

        "ZZZZzzzzzzzz..."

        MEDIASTRIKE!!!, goddamnit!!!

        (Betcha can't watch just one...)

        AG

        "Let the intelligent read and understand, and let the ignorant stay that way." From the earliest known piece of writng. A Mesopotamian shopping list. Nice.

        by Arthur Gilroy on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 06:11:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Once again... (none)
          I'm confused.

          You don't sound that much different than Joe Liberman railing at the evils of Hollywood.  Or James Dobson, or any of the wingnut right, for that matter.

          Seriously.  I just think that's interesting.

          I guess I should probably right up a diary on this at some point, but years ago I came to accept culture as entertainment.  It's nothing more, nothing less.  Hollywood doesn't form our opinions, they are a mirror of our psyche.  They put together that which we want to watch.

          So by attacking Hollywood, you're focused on the wrong subject.

          just my thoughts...

          •  I disagree. (none)
            I think that "Hollywood"...and if the news media is part of the "Hollywood" to which you refer, then yeah, "Hollywood"...DEFINES what the vast American middle thinks. ESPECIALLY that part of "Hollywood" that creates the content and style of advertising.

            And I think that this "Hollywood" of which you so blithely speak is wholly owned by corporate interests the short-term bottom line of which is quarterly profit.

            If they can make that profit by bitch slappin' and cop killin'...why SURE, we can do that.

            By glorifying war and brutal sex...of COURSE!!! Why not? IT'S JUST ENTERTAINMENT, right?

            Until we are all of us so immured to the sight of death and humiliation that the Abu Ghraib/Fallujah images mean next to nothing to us.

            "Oh,shit!!! I saw worse than THAT on CSI last night!!!"

            And there we go...

            So many of us sit here all righteous and say "Not ME!!! I know it's not true!!! I'm IMMUNE!!!"

            And then we go on out and get into enormous debt or take medicines THAT WE HAVE BEEN QUITE CLEARLY TOLD ARE POTENTIALLY VERY, VERY BAD FOR US.

            Do you have any OTHER explanations for the apparent mass psychosis...the mass separation from reality...that is apparently afflicting the majority of Americans at the present time?

            Because I do not, other than to consider it the normal state of human consciousness. Which I do NOT accept, on the evidence of any NUMBER of older people I know who lived through times when it was NOT like this in the U.S.

            So go right ahead, Steve4Clark, and continue consuming this poison as if it were cotton candy.

            I suspect that you may well be in the majority, and that thought ALONE is enough to scare me almost senseless.

            AG

            P.S. Hell, Steve4Clark, I just checked out your diaries. Your next to most recent one here is a diary about your
            "addiction" to dKos.

            Do you REALLY think that you are an addictive personality that is incapable of being addicted to mass media?

            Wake up and smell the advertising.

            "Let the intelligent read and understand, and let the ignorant stay that way." From the earliest known piece of writng. A Mesopotamian shopping list. Nice.

            by Arthur Gilroy on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 10:41:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  is that you? (none)
              Sen. Lieberman, is that you? I didn't know you frequented this blog.

              But seriously, this is a classic argument that's been written about by people more qualified than either of you for over 60 years. I'm not saying your opinions and comments don't matter, because they do. I'm just saying this is a very deep and layered topic that would be impossible to cover without writing a research thesis and then there'd still be a bunch of people who wouldn't agree.

              Basically it goes back to the bobo doll study, where kids were left in a room with a bobo doll. In the first run through the kids did nothing with the bobo doll besides look at it. However, a second group of kids are shown a video of adults kicking and punching the bobo doll and then left in the room with it. Well, the kids that watched the video beat up the bobo doll.

              However, there is no linear connection between the two and your assumptions about media causing violence is absurd and a logical fallacy. In fact, Canadians are exposed to an even heavier dose of violent video games, movies, the same tv, etc and they have a much lower crime rate, lower teen pregnancy rate, lower std stats, etc.

              Regarding the pie ad and things on tv being a reflection of people's desires is bogus as well. The advertising companies don't care about either of those. The ad companies make ads that will bring in the most money. They've found (check the early Corvette advertising scheme) that people will be more likely to pay attention to these ads and are more likely to raise their product awareness. If people stopped watching them or stopped buy the product this would stop.

              If they found that Puritan style commercials without violence or anything then they would immediately start showing commercials with Hester Prinn seriously plugging fast food joints and reality tv programs.

              Anyone can be caught up by the mass media but that doesn't lead to violent or unproductive people. You sound like plato with his belief that if people see a painted version of a door they wouldn't recognize it and run into the wall that the door was painted on. That's been completely disproven.

              •  Lovely. (none)
                1-How do you quantify "qualified"? By having written a thesis? How about a couple of books? Do you know how many bullshit theses and books are written every year about every topic under the sun?

                2-The bobo doll. Your statement. "However, there is no linear connection between the two and your assumptions about media causing violence is absurd and a logical fallacy."

                Prove it.

                3-Canada."In fact, Canadians are exposed to an even heavier dose of violent video games, movies, the same tv, etc and they have a much lower crime rate, lower teen pregnancy rate, lower std stats, etc."

                Prove the first part of the statement. I have spent a great deal of time in Canada, and my observations were just the opposite.

                4-"Regarding the pie ad and things on tv being a reflection of people's desires is bogus as well."

                I did not say that.

                I SAID: 'I think that "Hollywood"...and if the news media is part of the "Hollywood" to which you refer, then yeah, "Hollywood"...DEFINES what the vast American middle thinks. ESPECIALLY that part of "Hollywood" that creates the content and style of advertising."

                Advertising CREATES desires.

                Point of fact...without advertising, great numbers of people would not "crave" McDonalds burgers and other awful, degraded tastes like cheap, mass produced beer. Just TRY to get a German who has not been media-ed into it to drink a Bud Lite.

                Go ahead...I DARE ya.

                Why do you think fast food is so heavily advertised? I will GUARANTEE that if fast food advertising were banned the way cigartette ads were some decades ago, the overwhelming self-poisoning that is going on among fast food addicts would decrease at EXACTLY the same rate as did cigarette smoking.

                ESPECIALLY if the shit were banned from public places.

                You don't need a doctorate to smell which way the smoke is blowing, McJagger.

                It's being blown right up our asses.

                Time to close off the old sphincter muscles, m'friend.

                Advertising-caused hemorrhoids can be NASTY,

                They grow right up into the BRAIN, I've been told.

                Into the soul, too...

                And DESPITE what your friendly local PhD pushers might have told you...THEIR Preparation H is no better than a time waster. Unless you get to the ROOT of the problem...which IS the content of the media by and large in the U.S....all of their over the counter opinions are not worth the shit it took to blow them up in the first place.

                It's bad DIET that causes hemorrhoids...no matter WHICH asshole you might choose to examine.

                OR which hemorrhoids.

                And the media is providing us with a TERERIBLE diet.

                Keep up with the Joneses AND the "jones" (addictions) as well.

                COJONES!!!

                AG

                "Let the intelligent read and understand, and let the ignorant stay that way." From the earliest known piece of writng. A Mesopotamian shopping list. Nice.

                by Arthur Gilroy on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:06:25 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  weird analogy (none)
                  That's an odd analogy that you're using with the hemorrhoids and whatnot.

                  To the point, I agree that advertising and the media take their toll. I'll actually even add to your comment abou the germans and bud lite. I know 8 people from germany and all own at least one David Hasslehof album. Is this because his music is outstanding? No. So I agree with you there.

                  However, I don't agree that the media manipulates people into violent acts. I would say that violence is embedded in the culture and can be traced along a history. Regarding this and canada, here's a link

                  http://www.cda-cdai.ca/symposia/1998/98koloze.htm

                  As far as your comment about proving that there is no direct connection between the two, it can't be done. However, there is a great deal of study into this and over the past 2,000 years it's become pretty apparent that just because arnold schwartzeneggar blows up a gas tanker and destroys a building doesn't mean that they are going to do likewise. People, in fact, are able to differentiate reality from fiction.

                  I agree with you that the media does lead to some desensitization. People would have been horrified to see brittany spears and south park even 20 years ago, probably even 10 years ago but they've become desensitized. Same goes for horrible things that are reported so casually by the MSM. It's hard to summon up a feeling about a soldier dying or bomb attack or an earthquake because we're so accostomed to that sort of thing and if it happens far away enough, it's kind of like fiction to some people.

                  My only disagreement with you is that there is no proven correlation between violence and the media and I find it very hard to believe since people are probably less violent now than they were say 1,000 years ago when there wasn't tv, radio, etc. Take the greeks and romans and vikings. These were very violent and destructive groups from a contemporary perspective and they had no TV.

            •  One problem with your theory... (none)
              I don't watch much of any television.

              Primarily because I don't like what they've been creating.  I'm not a fan of reality TV.

              I don't watch ER, or Law and Order, or CSI.

              My favorite shows were Xena and Highlander, but they've been gone for years.  I guess those shows must have forced me to like violence, eh?

              No.  I listened to someone bitching about some teeny bopper song the other day, because they thought it encouraged teen pregnancy.  I've never heard the song, and don't care.

              But the fact is... You're old and out of touch when you wake up one morning and say "My god, I can't understand what these kids are listening to.  In my day..."

              You and Senator Lieberman have reached that point.

              BTW, I felt the violence was worse in the 1980s with the Freddy, Amityville, etc. movies.  I never liked those either.

          •  I disagree. (none)
            I think that "Hollywood"...and if the news media is part of the "Hollywood" to which you refer, then yeah, "Hollywood"...DEFINES what the vast American middle thinks. ESPECIALLY that part of "Hollywood" that creates the content and style of advertising.

            And I think that this "Hollywood" of which you so blithely speak is wholly owned by corporate interests the short-term bottom line of which is quarterly profit.

            If they can make that profit by bitch slappin' and cop killin'...why SURE, we can do that.

            By glorifying war and brutal sex...of COURSE!!! Why not? IT'S JUST ENTERTAINMENT, right?

            Until we are all of us so immured to the sight of death and humiliation that the Abu Ghraib/Fallujah images mean next to nothing to us.

            "Oh,shit!!! I saw worse than THAT on CSI last night!!!"

            And there we go...

            So many of us sit here all righteous and say "Not ME!!! I know it's not true!!! I'm IMMUNE!!!"

            And then we go on out and get into enormous debt or take medicines THAT WE HAVE BEEN QUITE CLEARLY TOLD ARE POTENTIALLY VERY, VERY BAD FOR US.

            Do you have any OTHER explanations for the apparent mass psychosis...the mass separation from reality...that is apparently afflicting the majority of Americans at the present time?

            Because I do not, other than to consider it the normal state of human consciousness. Which I do NOT accept, on the evidence of any NUMBER of older people I know who lived through times when it was NOT like this in the U.S.

            So go right ahead, Steve4Clark, and continue consuming this poison as if it were cotton candy.

            I suspect that you may well be in the majority, and that thought ALONE is enough to scare me almost senseless.

            AG

            P.S. Hell, Steve4Clark, I just checked out your diaries. Your next to most recent one here is a diary about your
            "addiction" to dKos.

            Do you REALLY think that you are an addictive personality that is incapable of being addicted to mass media?

            Wake up and smell the advertising.

            "Let the intelligent read and understand, and let the ignorant stay that way." From the earliest known piece of writng. A Mesopotamian shopping list. Nice.

            by Arthur Gilroy on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 10:42:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sorry... (none)
              I have NO idea how the double post happened, except that dKos has been very slow (for quite a while, actually...off + on for days) and I got a message once that there was some construction going on at one point during the writing of this post.

              Again...sorry.

              AG

              "Let the intelligent read and understand, and let the ignorant stay that way." From the earliest known piece of writng. A Mesopotamian shopping list. Nice.

              by Arthur Gilroy on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 11:35:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Success sucks. (4.00)
        Some are born great, some achieve greatness and others have greatness thrust upon them.

        Success, like stress (exactly like stress in fact), has a way of getting people to drop their guard, so to say, and allow [rationalize] why unfiltered arrogance and a free expression of their Id is fine because frankly, anyone can love it or leave it. "They're" the "little people" so it won't effect your personal fiefdom. I know it feels good to get up in front of a world of your own creation, pound your chest and declare your independence from them, but it's both intellectually lazy and counterproductive. Very.

        At some point, hopefully, one begins to realize that with great success comes nature's mitigating factor to take all the fun out of it, great responsibility.

        As it is, the political Right tends to view success as free of the burdens of any responsibility to others. Me, me, me, love it or leave it, get on board or leave everyone you work with behind and start your own country, company, community, blog, etc. That attitude is the Dark Side of success. By blithely hiding behind "That's my Id and I'm not going to apologize for it peeing on the carpet because it's my party and you can just leave and my homies will back me 'cause I [my Id anyway] don't walk on eggshells" you embrace the attitude of those we're fighting against.

        Kos, step back from the Dark Side. Don't confuse responsibility with "walking on eggshells." Responsibility is taking the extra part of a second to first recognize between "our" eggshells and "their" eggshells, and then stepping around our eggshells on the way to your point in such a way that nobody knows the eggshells exist.

        Everyone has an asshole within them. The more successful you are the more unseemly it is when exposed.

        Especially so when the exposure is to your own side of the divide.

        Responsibility, and it's first cousin maturity, isn't about slowing down or letting up or "walking on eggshells" or any compromising of one's goals. It's about fighting smart. At least I think that's what people are trying top tell you.

        The polls don't tell us how a candidate is doing, they tell us how the media is doing. And Diebold tells us who won.

        by Thumb on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 08:32:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Don't walk on eggshells, (none)
        pick up the eggs and throw them. This site does a lot for bringing the REAL news to the attention of people who want to know what it is. And even though you don't always personally post the women's issues, plenty of others do, and they frequently get front paged.

        The problem with blogs is that they tend to get too narrow in focus. DKos doesn't, here things are discussed from all quadrants of interest. The women who want women's issues to be more prominent fail to see that women are people too, and issues that affect all of us are important too.

        Let's focus on getting rid of the present Congress and administration, and then we can work on "women's issues". As long as the present Congress and administration are in power, women's issues are going to get nowhere, since the Republicans seem to think that women have "their place" and it isn't in politics or anywhere but the bedroom and the kitchen.

        First thing first. If people want to complain on lack of focus on women's issues, they should start writing Congress, not complaining on this blog.

        What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

        by Demfem on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 09:01:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Great Response! (none)
        No one will see you as a wimp now!
    •  I think he knows the difference (none)
      That seems to be the reason of this posting.
      Mea culpa,kos style.
      cant we all just get along?(with apologies to Rodney,the king of LA)
    •  nail, hammer, head! (3.81)
      That's what I found troubling about Kos' remarks yesterday. The dude can focus his energies on whatever he so desires. Big whoop. By dismissing a substantial contingent of the Democrat party's potential voters and creating a hostile/divisive environment on this blog in the process, he does his cause much more harm than good. Markos' diatribe yesterday was antithetical to what I thought was one of the purposes for this blog: to try foster the conditions that promote party unity.
      •  I don't think you understand... (2.33)
        By dismissing a substantial contingent of the Democrat party's potential voters

        Kos has pretty clearly stated he's not into special interest politics.  In fact he's said he's tired of the single-issue bullshit.  That if you weren't talking about issue-X you wanted nothing to do with the party.

        In fact that's the whole topic of this diary entry.

        and creating a hostile/divisive environment on this blog in the process

        I don't think you can blame kos entirely for that.  I went through that pie thread and uprated a whole slew of comments which had been troll rated just because the people were on the "wrong side".  Kos made a comment.  The hostile/divisive environment came from the posters in the thread.

        •  Oh, I think I understand quite clearly (none)
          You said:

          Kos has pretty clearly stated he's not into special interest politics.

          Kos could have quite easily stated that without stating the following:

          And I certainly won't let the sanctimonious women's studies set play that role on this site.

          Furthermore, although I don't blame Kos entirely, he does shoulder a certain amount of responsibility for what has transpired. Like it or not, Kos - and to an extent the other front-pagers - set the tone, set the group norms. That's just a simple fact of life - the leadership of a group by their deeds and words help to create the environment in which that group operates. Kos and at least one of the other front-pagers have chosen to adopt an edgier, more confrontational tone and like it or not, that colors the interactions here. I will stand by my earlier remarks that I don't think that it is a tone conducive to cooperation. If anything I wouldn't be surprised if instead we find even more petty bickering and less focus on the issues that matter. I find that saddening. I sure hope I'm wrong.

          On that note, I'd prefer not to belabor the issue further.

  •  I hear ya, Markos. (4.00)
    Time to put the pie fighting aside and start hammering again.
    •  Yes, (3.25)
      for one reason or another some of us sort of came to believe in Markos.  That was, well, dumb.  We have all been disappointed by people we believed in.  This is not the first time.  Won't be the last.  We're Democrats.

      Every man for himself.

      by JLFinch on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:14:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  He ain't (3.57)
        Markos Luther King.  (Hell, Martin wasn't the Martin Luther King of legend.)  He's a guy with a blog that's trying to have an impact.  With the assistance of a huge cadre of irregulars, his blog IS having an impact.  That's the beauty of it.  Now he's once again fighting against, or floundering in, the dark side of liberalism, our tendency to self-immolate.

        If I were Markos, I'd have handled it differently.  But I doubt that my way would have resulted in much of a difference.  People would still be yowling and exchanging shitbombs.  He's got his back up now, and isn't going to back down any farther.  I don't blame him.  Some people would have started kicking people out or censoring posts.  I'm glad he hasn't gone that direction.

        The best thing he can do is let this burn itself out and move on, hopefully learning something in the process.  The best thing we can do is to do the same.

        •  I wish (3.80)
          he would have just let it rest, instead of smacking down a major part of the community on the front page.  Why do it?

          It was diaried.  It was discussed.  It was over.

          Then it wasn't.

          Every Man for himself.

          by JLFinch on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:28:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Kos himself enters stage left. Singing: (none)

        It won't be easy, you'll think it strange
        When I try to explain how I feel
        That I still need your love after all that I've done
        You won't believe me
        All you will see is a boy you once knew
        Although he's dressed up to the nines
        At sixes and sevens with you

        I had to let it happen, I had to change
        Couldn't stay all my life down at heel
        Looking out of the window, staying out of the sun
        So I chose freedom
        Running around, trying everything new
        But nothing impressed me at all
        I never expected it to

        Don't cry for me fellow Kossacks.
        The truth is I never left you...
        All through my wild days...
        My mad existance...
        I kept my promise.
        Don't keep your distance....

        And as for fortune, and as for fame
        I never invited them in
        Though it seems to the world they were all I desired
        They are illusions
        They're not the solutions they promised to be
        The answer was here all the time
        I love you and hope you love me

        Don't cry for me fellow Kossacks.
        The truth is I never left you...
        All through my wild days...
        My mad existance...
        I kept my promise.
        Don't keep your distance....

        Have I said too much?
        There's nothing more I can think of to say to you
        But all you have to do is look at me
        To know that every word is true

        Don't cry for me fellow Kossacks

    •  hammering? what's that? (4.00)
      we've probably passed by five newsworthy issues arguing about this. hell, it bumped senator kennedy on the list of recommended diaries a few times.

      i think some people don't quite get a lot of this blog. like kos said, its for a few major issues, and the diaries are for hashing out the rest.

      i tend not to read the diaries for that reason. not that i don't care about some issues, but i'm not here for that.

      as i've said before, we're at war. we're at war for the 'hearts and minds' of the american electorate. we're at war with the neoconservatives and the wingnuts who have a sleeper hold on the people of this country.

      i don't come to this site to feel better about myself, i come here to reload. i come here to learn the truth about issues of the day, as kossacks are better than just about anyone at deconstructing these things and peeling away the layers of varnish to find the real nugget of truth behind a story.

      all this infighting and pie crap is just bunk.

      alcohol and night swimming. it's a winning combination!-l.leonard

      by chopper on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 04:15:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Works for me (n/t) (4.00)

    I got nuthin'. But check out unbossed.

    by Joan McCarter on Tue Jun 07, 2005 at 11:49:00 PM PDT

  •  of course you can't be (4.00)
    everything to everyone, but do you really think women's rights are not a core value? The rights of half of the population and voters?  It would make more "sense" to argue that civil rights are not a core progressive value.  I disagree with those who overblow their own personal issues, but maybe coming across as slightly less dismissive (even while disagreeing) of serious concerns, could make a world of difference.
  •  I've missed most of this somehow. (4.00)
    And maybe it's silly to enter in now when I have missed most of it.  But a few things.  Pie don't bother me, and my feminist credentials are in order.  Markos occasionally misspeaking don't bother me, although given the bump in comments that seems to happen when he does (all these, like 5,000-comment threads), at some point I'm going to begin to wonder if he's being strategic about it.  Markos focusing on his areas of interest don't bother me, because shoot, I focus on my areas of interest too, and I don't think we'd be better off if he made shit up just to be able to say something about everything.

    Like mcjoan says, there are some jerks around here.  Where aren't there?  Like her, I'm sticking around.

    •  Strategic about it? (4.00)
      Right...

      Because I think taking years off my life from the stress it generates is worth it, lol.

      People want bloggers who shoot their mouths, unencumbered by editors? They'll get the warts as well. It's a package deal, unfortunately.

      •  But see, (none)
        I don't think it's unfortunate.  As I note in response to a commenter above, I'm fond of warts.  But think, if you wanted to refashion yourself as some sort of new bad boy of politics, a smaller tidier Michael Moore, this would be a great strategy!
      •  the thing is (3.92)
        that the biggest attraction here isn't your blogging, markos, or any other individual's blogging for that matter, but rather the kind of productive discussions and inter-party debates that lead to a strong and unified left. you've managed to grow a great community, whose value is found in its richness and diversity of political opinion, and its singularity of purpose. people aren't pissed at you because they put you on a pedastal and then you erred; they are pissed because your post messed up the atmosphere necessary to sustain that kind of an examplary community. it told people who are very much on your side that they are not welcome unless they shut up.

        it was a mistake, and not for the reasons you think you're being criticised for. it's not about you, it's about us.

        crimson gates reek with meat and wine/while on the streets, bones of the frozen dead -du fu (712-770)

        by wu ming on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:44:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Wow! (3.00)
          now that is quite an indictment.

          Don't you think you are overstating the case?

          Moreover, the atmosphere is not just set by kos. And yes, I have an indictment of my own - there is a set of folks who are stirring the pot, and calling the site deliberately anti-women.

          That is false.

          Any words of reproach for them?

          The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

          by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:00:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I have a questions? (none)
            How is this site anti-woman..any feminist..anti anything when anything can be posted, diaried and recommended.

            I am being serious here...is there something more than the Naral comments and Kos stupid generization that are driving these claims?  Given, i am not here all the time ut I have never seen a anti-woman remark that was not jumped on and condemed by this community.  Add to that the number of (what I assume..this is the internet after all) female posters on this site that are followed, praised and appreciated, and I just don't see hte probelm?

            Midwest Center for American Values - Progressive ideas in an easy to swallow pill.

            by ETinKC on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:11:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No idea (3.80)
              Someone else will have to explain it.

              I think we are anti-women in the way the world is. We can't shake that off.

              But we are trying. Trying very hard.

              The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

              by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:17:12 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And I am sure a few will claim my opinion (none)
                doesn't count due to these testicals between my penis, but having been out their in the world, and aware of these issue, we are doing better than most as well.

                Midwest Center for American Values - Progressive ideas in an easy to swallow pill.

                by ETinKC on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:20:17 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  'we are anti-women in the way the world is' (4.00)
                Yeah, that's the crux of it. If Markos just said what you said, and believed it, and tried to change it, it would end 99% of the controversy.

                But judging from his complaint about "a small, extremist set looking for signs of female subjugation under every rock", I don't think he does believe that. He seems to think that anyone who sees that pattern in society, and in his postings, is a crazy extremist.

                And a lot of people (wrongly) interpret that to mean that he thinks all women, or those who care about women's issues, are crazy extremists.


                Those who cannot remember the future are condemned to repeat it.

                by Abou Ben Adhem on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 03:19:27 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's also the stuff we bring into it (4.00)
                  The women's movement has taken a lot of shots in the last few years, and I think many of us feel we have been silenced - and not just from those who cheer on feminazi comments - silenced even in progressive circles. And I think, in part, we recognize our own lack of courage and responsibility as women for buying into the silencing. It's to the point where some are ashamed or scared to call themselves feminists. It's like the word "liberal"-- only it may even sting more since it relates to such basic issues of self worth.

                  Sometimes women can be so self-loathing in an internalized sort of way. Our culture constantly reinforces that loathing. And for me, so much of this squabble seems to be a reaction from the part of us that feels minimized -- and just one more naive comment or generalization was the tipping point.

          •  since it's always about me (4.00)
            I doubt you are talking about me, but to declare it... I don't think this site is anti-women, though there are a few posters that seem to be.  But there is this strategy that is advocated and also chimed by many that seems to say that women's issues are losers for Dems, by accident because of who is running where, or whyever.  

            Is it just a coincidence?

            We don't have to talk about that but that's the actual issue here.

      •  that is a point (3.92)
        I tried to make.

        There is a lot of unseen stress, a lot of responsibility, a lot of opportunities to make mistakes...when you put your ass on the line and take a stand in front of the whole world.

        I'll join many others in being critical of the pie posting.  I had 250 new users today alone that were driven (at least temporarily) away by the tone of your smackdown.

        But we all lose our temper, we all hit post too quickly from time to time.  This pie-war needs to end.

        This is a beginning.

        Six out of the eight recommended diaries at my site are about the Pie-Wars.  All of them are heartfelt and important.  But we need to get this behind us and heal up these wounds.

        It starts with respect for people that have been injured, and it culminates with forgiveness by all.

        If you love dkos, you'll love: Booman Tribune. What are you waiting for? Become a member.

        by BooMan23 on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 02:17:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I missed it too (4.00)
      I was reading other diaries of interest. That is what I like about this site, there is much to read. One can choose the diaries to read and decide which ones are of interest. I just ignore the diaries that do not interest me and move on. I tend to reserve my  anger and indignation for the Right wingers and especially the corrupt, lying Bush administration.
      One can make a choice to get involved in some discussions or avoid them and move on to other diaries.

      We choose hope over despair; possibilities over problems, optimism over cynicism.-John Edwards

      by wishingwell on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:15:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Battered Wife Syndrom (2.66)
      some just stay because it is all they know. Oh well.

      The more understanding one posesses, the less there is to say and the more there is to do.

      by Alohaleezy on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 07:03:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  that is just a bad analogy... (4.00)
        And pretty offensive to both Markos and to women who are abused.

        I am a woman and I am staying. Sorry I can't get all riled up and personally offended over a silly ad and an offhanded comment. The reaction here is more disturbing to me than the ad or the comment, frankly. Because a small but vocal group of angry people couldn't intimidate Markos into removing the ad or discussing their particular concerns, they all flee the most interesting and productive democratic website on the internet? It seems self-defeating, extreme and a bit silly to me.

        Hey, I'm all for creating new blogs and spreading the wealth of insightful, productive dailykos minds around the internet. But this angry exodus is like a big GBCW diary. Why must everyone flame Markos and dailykos now that they've decided to leave?

        I'm conflicted about porn, about female athletes posing in Maxim magazine, and about advertising that exploits huge fake boobs and girl-on-girl action. I get angry when one of my male friends say things like "FHM magazine gives my wife something to aspire to..." (his wife is a 5'2", 150 pound, pale and soft-bodied irish girl.)

        And it would be more distasteful to me as a strong, independent woman to jump on the bandwagon of dailykos/Markos bashers and leave the site as part of an angry mob. I'm not a "follow the mob" kind of woman.

        Plus I like men a lot and I'd rather play with the boys than fight with them.

        When Americans think of a scary person in a black robe, they should be thinking of Darth Vader, not Republican choices for judges...Sen. Harry Reid

        by pacific city on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 08:38:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  then why are you here? n/t (none)
  •  Funny (2.20)
    How Kos has to quote Atrios to produce a sober-minded take on the issue.  If only you had done so at the start...
  •  You could take down the damn ad (3.60)
    Seriously, it's getting worse and it's just rubbing some nerves raw. Couldn't we pay you enough so you didn't have to run it anymore? I read some other commenter say the ad pays you $700 a week. I bet we could get enough donations together where you didn't have to run this stupid ad anymore.

    Cue "Roxanne, you don't have to put out the red light...".

    A word after a word after a word is power. -- Margaret Atwood

    by tmo on Tue Jun 07, 2005 at 11:50:38 PM PDT

    •  You could subscribe. (3.84)
      For $4.00/mo, $40.00/yr, or $100.00/lifetime, you could subscribe and turn off all the ads.

      The Media Is Dead. Long Live NewsCorpse.com

      by KingOneEye on Tue Jun 07, 2005 at 11:58:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Whiny Bus (3.00)
        For $4.00/mo, $40.00/yr, or $100.00/lifetime, you could subscribe and turn off all the ads.

        But then they'd have to find something else to bitch about.

        It's amazing how some people find the time and energy to bitch about the most insignificant stuff.  We usually get it from the Religious Right, but apparently it can come from our side as well.

        This whole pie stupidity reminds me of the type of silliness we've come to expect from James Dobson and his band of the loonies.

        Without music, life would be a mistake.

        by Cory on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:19:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What Insignificant stuff would that be? (4.00)
        •  And, THAT comment.... (3.75)
          is something I am used to hearing from the religious reicht too - I'm just so darn tired of hearing that women and their concerns are fringe issues and that we just like to "bitch" for the hell of it. I so wish you people making those comments would understand how demoralizing it is to hear all the time....from all sides.

          And, to just stick a bit to the religious reicht analogy - isn't one of the things about them that makes us absolutely crazy the fact that they, too, keep their members walking in lock-step, marching to the tune of a "focused" agenda? The thing I like(d) the most about progressivism is that a wide variety of opinions/points of view are respected and respectfully discussed.

          I have a suggestion - I won't demean any comments you make about things that are important to you if you will treat me with the same respect. Deal?

          •  Works Both Ways (3.33)
            I'm just so darn tired of hearing that women and their concerns are fringe issues and that we just like to "bitch" for the hell of it. I so wish you people making those comments would understand how demoralizing it is to hear all the time....from all sides.

            I have never mentioned anything about women or women's issues in any posting - much less said anything about women's concerns being anything remotely 'fringe'.  My comments have all been about whiny people - of no particular sex - complaining about a ridiculous ad about an inane TV show.  But why let that fact get in the way of all the hissy fits being thrown because people don't agree with whatever agenda the whiners are trying to advance.  

            And by 'you people' I assume you mean those of us who don't equate a stupid fucking TV commercial with actual women's concerns?  Who knows.  I just wish 'you people' would realize some people make not agree with you on the ad issue and that doesn't make us anti-woman.

            won't demean any comments you make about things that are important to you if you will treat me with the same respect. Deal?

            Too late for your brothers and sisters.  I've already been troll rated and called Joseph Stalin, David Koresh and horror of horrors, a 'frat boy'!  Perhaps you'll now post comments to them about that 'wide variety of opinions/points of view' that 'are respected and respectfully discussed'.  

            Without music, life would be a mistake.

            by Cory on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 08:06:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I most definitely will (4.00)
              continue to try my best to hold up respectful and intelligent conversation and to point out where I think people are demeaning the speaker personally, rather than ideas.

              As for my being tired of being demeaned, it has to do with language. And, I'm more than willing to accept that I might be the only person in the world to whom the word "whining" pushes some very tough buttons about my self as a woman. Whiny, naggy, bitchy...all terms that have been used rather frequently to define women, but that I rarely if ever hear to define men who are discussing a point or who are arguing.

              To me, it's a subtle way of shutting me up and telling me my arguments aren't worth considering because girls/women are told from the time they come out of the womb that they don't want to be whiny, bitchy nags. It isn't feminine and it isn't attractive. And, no matter how advanced our individual beliefs as women are, it still hurts to feel unfeminine and unattractive - at least for me it does.

              I'm sure you didn't mean your comment to make me feel that way, but I just wanted to explain to you why I, and perhaps others, feel personally attacked by some of the language being used.

              Thanks!

              •  Sue2010 (none)
                Sue2010 -

                You should definitely not take my comments as attacks on women, because that is not how I meant them.  All of my posts were meant to be gender-neutral.  When I discussed the 'whiners' or mentioned 'something to bitch about', I certainly wasn't referring specifically to women or any of their issues. (In fact, most of the disputes seem to have been between me and men).  My comments were directed at those complaining about wanting to leave here simply because Kos and others didn't agree with their opinion of that dumb-ass TV ad.  (I really hate the Goodbye Cruel World posts).

                I've always associated 'whining' with children as opposed to females.  And using the word 'bitching' instead of 'complaining' or some other word simply comes from hanging with a whole bunch of gay friends.  Both genders do their fair share of whining and bitching and I meant the comments to be directed to human beings - of either sex.

                All that being said, having you (or any woman) think I was using those particular words to subtledly tell them their arguments weren't worth considering is NOT something I would ever hope to convey.   Sorry for the misunderstanding.

                Without music, life would be a mistake.

                by Cory on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 10:43:48 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Cool Cory! (none)
                  Thanks for clarifying! I'm always amazed at how truly powerful language is and when I get angry always try to remember what my father told me... "before you get into a big argument with someone, make sure you both are arguing about the same thing. Define your terms before you go to war." Can't tell you how many times that advice has saved my tush and how often I've learned that the person I'm angry with really wasn't saying what I thought he/she was saying.

                  Sue

  •  Does this mean we're done now?? (4.00)
    Please...

    I long for the days when Pie was nothing but a silly response to put at the end of your poll...

    we have a country to save!

    SoapBlox - a new blog community
    Site #2 Launched: SoapBlox Chicago

    by pacified on Tue Jun 07, 2005 at 11:51:16 PM PDT

  •  I always recommend DailyKos (3.50)
    I didn't realize that the concerns mentioned had reached a certain level...but I suppose I screen out other people's silly comments (such as consternation over a humorous ad), and proceed with my own (occasionally silly) comments.

    I think this is a very informative sight with a remarkable degree of fluid debate and self-regulation...a real credit to the blog world.

    This and juancole.

    •  Juan Cole, (1.58)
      Atrios, Steve Soto (LeftCoaster), Elaine Supkis (http://culturelifenewsii.blogspot.com/), Digby, RudePundit, Walcott...

      all way better than Markos in expressing things intelligently.  None of the above have ever pissed me off like Markos did in his silly "women's study set" comment.  

      I highly recommend the above blogs.  DKos is great too for the diaries.

      •  So enjoy the diaries. (3.40)
        Contribute some of your own, if you have that talent.

        The endless carping doesn't serve any purpose. I suggest you resist the urge to score dubious points.

        Let the great world spin for ever down the ringing grooves of change. - Tennyson

        by bumblebums on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:09:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I do enjoy (1.77)
          the diaries.  And as you can see, I am certainly not scoring points with my post.  

          Quite simply, I think Markos is one of the most lame bloggers out there.  And if you want to troll-rate me for it, so be it.  I've lost TU status long ago...

          •  And this is where these things (3.50)
            have gone all day. Some people try to talk rationally and someone ends up acting like a little kid. It's a fucking grade school cafateria.
            •  I don't understand (2.54)
              your post, but just compare Markos' reply to the news that Kerry authorized the release of his records to the reply Atrios gave.

              You and others seem to be blaming me, a fricking peon on this site, instead of the acrid remarks given by our supposed leader.  If a rational space were wanted on this site, it's not me who could establish that.

              •  You disagree with Markos (none)
                so that makes him the most lame blogger out there. At the point that I read his reaction to the Kerry thing I agreed with him. I thought Atrios made a very valid point. So now I'm sort of between the two.

                But I wouldn't make a childish comment about either one if I totally disagreed with them. It's a kid saying "you stink like dog doo" because the other one disagreed with him. Maybe that's normal for you but I see it as childish.

                •  If markos (none)
                  had posted the anti-Kerry post now and this fellow commented about it in that thread, then he would be on topic.

                  It is not that post and the commenter either doesn't get it oris disingenuous.

                  The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

                  by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:39:32 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Ah (2.25)
                    you call me "This fellow."  

                    Very nice.  Why don't you zero-rate me to boot?

                    •  If you insist (none)
                      But your name is Peter right? You are a fellow no?

                      Don't tell me that is offensive too?

                      And you so polite.

                      My apologies.

                      The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

                      by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:58:08 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Please... (1.50)
                        If you aren't aware that using the third person to refer to people who are in the same room as you is offensive, I don't know what to say.  

                        Buenas noches, camarada.

                        •  But I do (none)
                          but I also know gratuitous attacks on the site owners' blogging in a thread devoted to soemthing else is not exactly what Miss Manners sees as proper.

                          But my sarcasm did not penetrate.

                          The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

                          by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:15:43 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  It's just that I'm (2.60)
                            not interested in whatever sarcasm you might be dishing out here.  Sorry about that.

                            Markos quoted Arios about to what extent blogger's selection of topics reflects that blogger's beliefs.  No?  Well, Markos did in fact address the issue of women's rights, and he did so crappily.  And I merely said that that was not the first time he replied crappily to something.  Adn I merely said that there are others out there who would have much better responded to the matter.

                          •  Not interested? (none)
                            Funny, I think that is what we are saying about your opinion on markos' blogging skills.

                            Nothing to do with this thread.

                            Off topic.

                            Get it? (ppst, more sarcasm.)

                            Seiously, do you think you get to be as rude as you have been on this thread and then have the right to complain when I am rude to you?

                            Chutzpah is a wonderful thing.

                            The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

                            by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:29:36 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  If you'd check out (3.25)
                            other blogs, instead of quixotically sticking up for Markos no matter what, you'd see that what I said about his commentary was correct.

                            Or do you think his reply to the Pie controversy was appropriate and well done?  Gee, Sarcasm Meister, then why did so many people leave DKos after that post?  

                            Again, feel free to view me as a scape-goat.

                          •  If you would read what I said (none)
                            you would note I make no cooment whasoever on the substance of your opinion but rather its appropriateness on THIS thread.

                            You were compelled for some reqson to say it here even though it was off topic and gratuitous.

                            Believe it or not, I have visited other blogs - and I actually read what folks write. You clearly do not.

                            The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

                            by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 07:53:02 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  In his post (none)
                            Kos gave us links to other blogs.  And he even added, "There are many other sites and communities out there that could use the patronage as well."

                            So, how is my mentioning still more stites off topic for this thread?  It was firmly on-topic.  Indeed, the post I replied to said: "I highly recommend DKos to my friends, that and Juan Cole."  So I was saying, Look, there's lots more great ones out there, with even better writers than Kos.  

                            Did I criticize Markos?  I certainly did.  But to accuse me of being off-topic, give me a break.

                •  My point was (4.00)
                  that here are many, many excellent blogs out there that aren't the most popular and that get far less traffic and comments than this site does.  

                  I dislike the feeling I get here sometimes, that this site is the heart and center of the progressive movement.  And that if Markos alienates a large section of the progressive movement--doesn't matter!  We still have to stick up for him, 'cause this is the center!

                  I'm just saying, and I apreciate Markos for mentioning other sites, that there's lots of other intelligent, progressive, and informative blogs out there that I wish would get more traffic.

              •  What was wrong with it ? (3.33)
                Kos said aloud EXACTLY what I thought when I read about it.

                And this is one of the reasons I love this site. Kos is not afraid to take on our sacred cows when they commit a mistake. And he knows WHEN to say it too, as it was obvious before the election that Kerry should release his records, but Kos held off criticism until after Nov 2nd.

                We should not use public money to support the further destruction of human life - GW Bush, 5/25/2005, WH East Room

                by lawnorder on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:38:55 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  i was shocked... (none)
                  ... when I came on this morning to find out that Kos' post from yesterday was a huge issue.

                  So freaking what?  This is a matter of opinion as far as how to deal with these juvenile ads and Kos has his own opinion.

                  Did his choice of words offend a few people?  Apparently so.  Get over it.  

                  Free speech and the conflict that goes with it isn't always going to be pretty.  Is Kos' objective the same as most everyone else, i.e. to get rid of this trashy crap?

                  It sure seems so.  It's not a disagreement about values so much as it's a disagreement about how to carry out and achieve results consistent with the values.

                  "I intend to live forever. So far, so good." Steven Wright

                  by gsbadj on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 03:12:26 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Then why don't you (none)
                post comments or a diary disagreeing with kos's opinion - it's not like this is free republic where doing something so audacious will get you banned for life.

                Why is it necessary to attack kos because you disagree with him?

                We all go a little mad sometimes - Norman Bates

                by badger on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:02:05 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Tired, but (4.00)
                  I did post comments on the original Kos Pie thread and I did disagree with him.  I'm fully aware that my comments did not bother him and that he realizes that that's part of the turf.  

                  As for attacking...I shouldn't attack Falwell for disagreeing with him?  

                  My posts will do nothing to diminish DailyKos.  I'm not sure at all why I've I've been troll-rated on this thread.

                  But I do, objectively, believe that there are far better commentators out there than Markos.  Seriously.  But I still love this site.

                  •  Actually, no (4.00)
                    you really shouldn't attack Falwell because you disagree with him. It's the start of a bad habit (one which I have too, unfortunately) that degrades dialog on nearly every issue. What matters is what's said and not who says it -attack Falwell's speech, not the speaker.

                    You can read back through a few days of diaries and witness the results, or just tune into any right-wing radio show, or any cable news network. There are people who want to reduce every discussion to name-calling, and people who call other people names for calling other people names ... ad infinitum.

                    There's nothing to make kos objectively better or worse than anyone else. Subjectively you can hold an opinion about his style, grammar, persuasiveness, whatever you mean by "better". Or you can disagree (although I fail to see how that has anything to do with better or worse).

                    You're entitled to the opinion, but it would be helpful to explain how you come to the conclusion, otherwise the conversation becomes an endless round of "he sucks"/"no he doesn't".

                    We all go a little mad sometimes - Norman Bates

                    by badger on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:28:44 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I wrote a reply last night (none)
                      but it got lost 'cause the site was undergoing maintenance... Or maybe it was zero-rated to death?  (Cool, that would have been a first!)

                      I hope you aren't saying I made an ad hominem attack against Markos and that I advocate ad hominem attacks against Falwell.  No, nothing of the sort.

                      As for an explanation: Just look at Markos' Pie post!  That's all the explanation I need.  As I said, none of the other blogs I mentioned have ever pissed me off.  And if you want to see the extent of the pissed-off-ness, check out BooMan, though, hopefully things have died down there since last time I checked...  

          •  Heh (3.00)
            Yes because your views on his blogging are so on topic here in this thread.

            I mean honestly, does that make you feel good?

            Good for you.

            The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

            by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:22:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I noticed something. (2.50)
            You have not written a single diary even though you complain that kos is such a lousy blogger. If kos is such a lousy blogger, why don't you start writing your own diaries? This is a free community.
            •  Abel90210: (none)
              What was that 1 for? That is called ratings abuse.
              •  No, it's called the norm (none)
                I got a 1 once because of "poor reasoning," so the guy said.  And he seemed rather proud of it.  

                Your post certainly exhibited poor reasoning, so, I seems to me it legitimatly deserves a 1.

                I personally think that the ratings system here is one of the main problems with this site.  Here, for instance, people ganged up on my for criticizing Kos, trying to zero-rate me off the thread, and for what?  Oh, you were "off-topic."  Lol.

                And one of my desenters, who wasn't among the troll-raters, as far as I can tell, even defended Kos by saying he fights Sacred Cows.  Well, isn't that what I was just doing?!

            •  Huh? (none)
              "Fraçoise Sagan was a crappy writer.  J.MG. Le Clézio is so much better."

              "Well, you have't written any novels, so who are you to say?"

              Is that your argument??

      •  Petulant comment (4.00)
        Is this all that different than what you're complaining about?
      •  Don't make things harder fo us (none)
        You're the reason we're slogging, begging to be understood on this, while you offer up an easy way to dismiss it all as making bloggers speak for you on every issue exactly as you'd like, or worse say things just to draw attention to other blogs, feigning outrage, while using Kos' blog to do it.

        Yeah, you were genuinely outraged.  

        "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine

        by Cathy on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:28:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Give me a break (4.00)
          Did I wave off a large section of this site with a total dismissal of women's rights issues?  Did I offend people to the extent that many left this site for BooMan?  

          No, it was Markos.  And if he is able to rectify the situation, I'd be happy about it.

          •  Well, he's not able to in some (2.50)
            ways. Not in ways that would satisfy me, but I'm going to accept that he's satisfied that his comments are take it or leave it, except you can tell him he's wrong.  

            That's it.  That's all that's available to us.

            If I assigned motives to you, I'm sorry.  It's been a long day.  I've slogged through this because I thought it was important.  

            It was hardly worth the energy.

             

            "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine

            by Cathy on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:46:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes (none)
              It's been a long day, and I should go to bed.  

              All I'm saying is, after reading Kos' dismissive post, I thought to myself, "Why am I clicking to this blog first thing in the day?"  There's many other great blogs out there.

              Ok, shouldn't have said that.  Don't mean to make things worse...

              Anyway, thanks for not troll-rating me.  Sleep well.

  •  enough (3.62)
    Stop with the nonsense. It's Kos's site. He's free to do whatever he likes. If you don't like it, go away.  
  •  All this talk about people finding niches (4.00)
    and things that they specialize in and thrive at... well damn if it doesn't sound like evolution.

    Of course that's just a theory of mine.

  •  Oh boy, here we go (3.00)
    Kos posts a rather sensible post that can be summed up as "Get over yourselves."  Which really is the sensible thing.  However, my guess is that its just gonna result is 1,000 dead cats being defiled as they are beaten 1,000 more times.

    Or horses...

    PolisPundit - An Agenda for a New Liberalism

    by goblue72 on Tue Jun 07, 2005 at 11:55:44 PM PDT

    •  Frist Snark Alert (none)
      Don't say "dead cats" too loud or Bill Frist might show up!

      There is a wisdom of the head, and a wisdom of the heart.-Charles Dickens

      by Ranting Roland on Tue Jun 07, 2005 at 11:58:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  might that be a good thing? (none)
        I'd actually have fun if any of the GOP leadership showed up on this site.  It might give them a clearer picture of what the people who don't support them think like.

        Then again, "dead cats" are definitely not a good thing . . .

        •  Dead cats, dead cats, whatcha gonna do... (none)
          Funny - I had written the cat thing and then realized the saying was actually "beat a dead horse", but liked the cat image better.  Partially for the Bill Frist bit, partially because I just had this mental image of 1,000 Bill the Cats from Bloom County being swung around by their tails and used to by kossacks to beat each other with...

          PolisPundit - An Agenda for a New Liberalism

          by goblue72 on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:18:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  yup (4.00)
          I'd actually have fun if any of the GOP leadership showed up on this site.  It might give them a clearer picture of what the people who don't support them think like.

          well, i wouldn't want them to come by right this second, what with the current debate and all...

          alcohol and night swimming. it's a winning combination!-l.leonard

          by chopper on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 04:23:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Let's prank call Frist (4.00)
        Just say "Meow" and hang up. I figured a little humor aimed at Dr. Bill was needed about now.

        We choose hope over despair; possibilities over problems, optimism over cynicism.-John Edwards

        by wishingwell on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:20:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  That cat was already being beaten. (none)
      Have you not looked at the recent diaries list?  Could hardly be taking a worse beating.

      But LOL anyway.

    •  I disagree that this is a get over yourselves post (none)
      but that is what some of the comments would indicate...

      There is most likely more going on here than we are seeing splashed on the front page, and I think this post hints at that some more.  This site is more than just Kos himself..it is all of us int he diaries and comments and many have found their niche here in the active community.

      We need to stopped arguing and worring so much about what Kos says and does...its like some of the DFA meetups I used to go to..there was one person there who was one of hte host that drove me nuts..but I decided that all of hte other people there made it worth while and so I kept coming back.  Now if this one person who drove me nuts dominated the conversation or kick out the others I liked< i would leave, adn that is my call to make.

      Kos has opened this site to all and that is what makes it so successful.  There are plenty of sites that I don;t go to because if you don't like what the hosts posts, you are SOL...this is more like a huge party and I am free to wander from room to room, ignoring a gathering I am not enjoying and continuing on till I find the keg where I can settle in for that night...oh wait, that was college.

      Midwest Center for American Values - Progressive ideas in an easy to swallow pill.

      by ETinKC on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:09:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yup (3.33)
        We need to stopped arguing and worring so much about what Kos says and does...
        No doubt.
        •  Um (4.00)
          to clarify, it was the "worrying about" part that I was agreeing to. Feel free to argue with what I say all you want.
          •  I got that (none)
            and horrible late night spelling aside, I meant arguing with each other about this topic, I reserve my right to tell you or anyone else on this shite when they are full of shit and should fuck off, and expect the same in return.

            But then again, i alsays get in trouble at work for not being PC enough, I assume everyone knows that I value their opinions without having to preface every critisism with "I see you point and validate what you are saying and respect your opinion but....".  For me it just slows the conversation down and keeps us from quickly gettign to the answer.

            Midwest Center for American Values - Progressive ideas in an easy to swallow pill.

            by ETinKC on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:34:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Could be, could be (none)
        OK, maybe its just me that thinks folks on all sides (at least amongst those still beating those cats) needs to get over themselves.  If anything, this whole pie thing has sure brought out a lot of popinjays, including a few who apparently had there eyes spontaenously combust because they happened to alight on half a pie covered breast...

        PolisPundit - An Agenda for a New Liberalism

        by goblue72 on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:16:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And I think it was fine to have the arguement that (none)
          the ad doesn't belong here..I have no problem with it..but I can see others might.  however, i think a diary or two on the topic of non-political ads on a political site, or even freedom of speech vs. soft core porn impact ont he image of woman would have surficed.

          On Kos other point about the issues he is talking about, I have to admit I never bring up homeless issues.  They don't come into my speeches of why republican suck, or when talking about priorities for america.  In fact that is hjust one of many issues I never talk about becasue either A) I don't have the expertise to talk about it with any interest or detail or B) There are too many other things I am pasionate about and interested in that I spend my time discussing.

          Personally i know nothing about the military, don't really have friends or family in the military, nor did I ever consider it a carreer for myself.  However, this does not mean that I am anti-military (and definately not against those who do serve) and it also happens to mean that Kos military posts are the ones I like the most becasue it is obvious he has a passion and knowledge for the topic.

          Midwest Center for American Values - Progressive ideas in an easy to swallow pill.

          by ETinKC on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:29:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Gnashing of teeth (none)
            It was more the hair pulling, hand wringing, gnashing teeth that some many people devolved to that bugged.  Made me sit there thinking "Geez, would you people just listen to yourselves?"

            Or, as Lisa Kudrow said to Lisa Simpson ( when she was a guest star voice on the Simpsons): "DMA - Don't Mess Yourself."

            PolisPundit - An Agenda for a New Liberalism

            by goblue72 on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:34:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  None here either (none)
      I like healthy and interesting debate among Democrats.   Nasty, mean spirited, Right wingers are about the only ones who can ruffle my feathers these days. And on this blog, they are called trolls..so I like it here. And some of the troll comments are  so ridiculous, I just shake my head.

      We choose hope over despair; possibilities over problems, optimism over cynicism.-John Edwards

      by wishingwell on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:25:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I haven't read (3.70)
      the linked diary yet, so I have no comment either way.  But please notice that it, along with every other comment about this everdamned pie fight, is being hosted without censorship by Markos on this blog.  He's reserving the right to be a jerk if he pleases, which works for me, as I reserve the same right for myself.  He's also allowing everyone on here to rip him to shreds on his dime.

      Call me sucking up, I don't care.  The upshot of the whole thing is that Markos ran an ad that many find offensive, he made a stupid comment in return, people ripped him open for it, he apologized in a rather flippant manner, and people are yowling like a herd of burnt cats as a result.  Right or wrong, it's gotten far bigger than it ever warranted.

      •  You are sucking up (1.28)
        I am surprised that you don't see Kos's tonsils...You are a great big ass kisser...running around all over the boards sucking up. What are you trying to get on the front page...

        I won't apologize for that, nor will I censor myself to become "vanilla offend-no-one TrubluDem". Quite frankly, I don't care if I offend you.

        We can agree to disagree, or not. Am I a big asshole? I can be. Am I PC? Hell no. Am I perfect? No. Do I apologize for any of that? No

        •  For someone who signed (3.50)
          up last week you sure do have a high opinion of yourself and your knowlege of this site. Is this maybe one more name in a long list of them?
          •  The difference is the context (none)
            you are using the words to be a smart ass and to take a pot shot at Kos. You know this - so deal with the ratings.

            If you want to act like this - it is your own prerogative but don't expect everyone to treat you with kid gloves.

            •  No it just (none)
              shows that if everyone took the same "I don't give a shit if I offend" attitude... this place would be unbearable.

              A fish rots from the head.

              •  You don't seem to worry if you offend - (4.00)
                As long as your comments are on topic and relevant I don't really care. But when you take one comment and repeat it over and over - I don't think it makes the point you mean it to.

                If all comments were like the gaff Kos has admitted making (he even called it a fuck up above) then yes it would be unbearable.

                There is too much here that is positive to make it unbearable. If I don't like what anyone says - including Kos - I can go to one of hundreds of diaries to find something great.

              •  The difference is (none)
                you were doing exactly what you accused Kos of doing. Deliberately being divisive not just once but in several posts.  If the point you state was what you intended to say, then why didn't you just say that straight up?  Then people would be able to decide if they agree with your assessment of what Kos was saying.  Which, btw, I don't because that is not what he said and by putting it in quotes you imply that it is.  You may have interpreted it that way, I didn't.  

                I haven't posted much but have followed the various threads and have rated those comments that I thought hit the nail on the head and expressed what I was thinking.  

                One of the issues that struck me is that many posters did not say what what they were thinking or feeling but used vast generalizations, sarcasm, and down right mean-spirited comments and expected people to figure out their meaning.  It rarely works well when speaking like that to people in 'real-time', it never works well when typing to mostly anonymous people in an internet forum.

                People feel what they feel and have every right to do so.  What they don't have a right to do is generalize it to anybody else or make broad generalizations of what I or anyone else says really means such and such.  If you think that's what I'm saying, then ask me and give me the courtesy of being able to explain myself.

                And yes, I agree, Kos did make some generalizations but he has apologized to those he offended. The people who were offended are free to accept that apology or not.  The only other person who apologized directly that I saw was MaryScot.  There are many other people, imho, who could also use a dose of humility for some of the comments that were made.  And this doesn't apply just to one 'side' of the argument.

                The other thing I thought about when reading how disappointed people are in this site or in Kos is what someone else has already said, you have invested too much of yourself in the site and in one person.  While that is understandable, it is not a good thing.  We are all imperfect people who say stupid things that hurt other peoples feelings.  Hopefully that is mostly unintended but  not always.  If you invest yourself that deeply you will surely be disappointed.  

                And that brings me back to why I gave you a '1' for your comments.  I thought many of your comments, not just the one I rated, were intentionally divisive and unnecessarily harsh to many of the other posters.

        •  Wish I could (none)
          rate the above stupid comment as "unproductive," but since I'm not a TU, it would have the effect of nudging its rating average up!
        •  Geez, (none)
          I guess to "prove my independence," I have to start throwing my own shitpies at Markos now.  "Hey, Markos, you suck!"  How's that?  Meanwhile I'll continue my backpage discussions with him on how much more I have to flog his schlong in order to Be a Front Pager.  Oh boy!  Just a few more gargles with Listerine and I'm in!  Woo hoo!

          End snark.

          This is a prime example of just how easy it is to turn any blog, net forum, or what have you into just another festering flame pit.  Whether you agree or disagree with what's going on in here, whether you think the sun shines out Markos's ass or you think he's a misogynist assclown, the last thing that we need to see is this place become just another theater for just another flame war.  As I said elsewhere, while we bicker and slap each other around, the rich laughter of Karl Rove echoes throughout the political cosmos.

          This needs to stop.  Now.

  •  3am (none)
    Just for the record.... I hate suck ups.
  •  It isn't about the ad. (3.40)
    It's about miscommunication and poorly worded/directed comments, a prominent one of which Markos is guilty of himself. I think he's being a bit too stubborn here, but then again, I don't have to read his inbox.

    Sometimes the jokes write themselves. Sometimes they run for President.

    by Sixfortyfive on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:01:58 AM PDT

  •  I'm offended... (3.72)
    ...that you didn't include me (see my sig) in the list of sites you're proud of having spawned.

    My pet issue is the media, and I felt motivated to express myself and agitate in that arena. I'm getting about 2000 visits a month, so watch your back Markos (yeah, I know you get 20 times that a day. Still...).

  •  Whatever (2.75)

    absolute freedom for one individual undoubtedly limit's the freedom of another.

    by jbou on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:04:23 AM PDT

  •  interesting (4.00)
    some great writing there.

    it's about netroots, that's everything, dkos has some political impact.  Who is part of the netroot coalition.  

    Right now you decide that.

    Just a fact.

    You made dkos a community... you can't be surprised if people react as they do in their other communities, with emotion, with expectation, with demands even.  I am not, of course, saying you have to give in to every demand, but I people have a right to fight for respect of their ethics in a community.  When you declare what the subject matters of the blog are, that cuts close the community which is also trying to decide that.  That creates a conflict which is not easily resolved.

    People are concerned about their role in the coalition (not me so much), and since it's a community, that is natural and to be expected.  The power this site has enjoyed from the community has these sorts of ramifications.

    An honest question: Do not some actions incur obligation?

    •  Well (4.00)
      He answers your comment in his post.

      I think you don't like the answers.

      Personally, I think it is the only answer he can give, cuz it can only work this way.

      It is his site and he gives us certain privileges.

      I think he just told you how far they go and if that is not enough, you need to find another outlet for what you want.

      The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

      by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:06:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I've always (4.00)
      said what my specific topics are. It's not "closing the community", it's setting the proper expectations. People can still post whatever they want on the diaries, but they shouldn't expect me to tackle certain issues. I won't.
      •  Maybe I'm not (4.00)
        Seeing the e-mails, but I'm not seeing where the issue at hand is whether or not you highlight someone's issue.

        Instead, its the fact that you have issues you don't like, frankly display a startling lack of knowledge in and still make some sort of defensive comment.

        And you dont do it where people can rate your silly idea, you do it on the front page.

        I agree with a ton of what you right, and I try to respect your opinion when we disagree. You would save yourself a ton of pain doing the same. I see painting with a wide brush a failure of the right, even when I agree with their principles.

        Now you can get all defensive about it, or you can use the advice to improve your Blog.

        I can't say I deeply care which way it goes. You might get more props one way.  Just .02

  •  *sigh* (2.47)
    You still don't get it, Kos.

    You're still building strawmen.  It's not about you doing whatever it is you want with your site.

    It's about respect.

    Power corrupts.

    Power corrupts.

    •  Power? (4.00)
      LOL!  How much power does Markos really have?  What little influence he has among the liberal wing of the Dems, he's earned by a hell of a lot of work and a lot of contributions from Kossacks and other affiliates.  He's doing a hell of a job, otherwise I wouldn't waste my time around here, I'd be posting at another blog or working on my own site.  But Richard Mellon Scaife he ain't.

      The power of this blog is found collectively.  Right now we're using it to zap each other.  This blog can have an impact when the membership isn't busy flogging one another, but unites in flogging some dirtbag Republican or works to keep the Dems honest.  Yes, there needs to be some consciousness-raising around here regarding women's rights, but to bring this place to a screeching halt while the "membership" rips one another's skin off isn't the way to deal with it.

      •  Yes Max (none)
        I agree, I would rather flog the right wingers any day. While we flog each other, we can lose sight of Dobson and Frist, Bush and Cheney  trying to take away our freedom  to beat up on each other..
        We cannot get too caught up in tearing up each other or we miss the Republicans tearing up the Constitution.

        We choose hope over despair; possibilities over problems, optimism over cynicism.-John Edwards

        by wishingwell on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:34:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  My first zero rating (4.00)
      It's a good thing that speaking truth to power is its own reward.
    •  If you're all about respect... (none)
      ....how about your sig....(?)

      What "respect" are you demanding?  Was it the ad that was so offensive to you?

      Are you of the camp that you "know sexism when you see it"?  Please parse out some of your statements if you will.

      "You can't awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."-Navajo saying.

      by quartzite on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 10:51:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Great Points Kos (none)
    It's obvious that we have the most serious crisis at hand in our lifetime.

    And every day the incoming reports and new diaries paint the picture ever more starkly.

    It's high time we all made a concerted effort to move beyond all this internal friction.

    We will all make a mistake from time to time.

    However, I do believe that our over all community commitment to affect the necessary changes in our government remains intact.

    With the information available on dailyKos and the application of available strategic thinking I look forward to participating in this great endeavor.

    I would hope we could all direct our energies as much as possible to the serious matters before us.

    Time's a wasting folks... let's have at it.

    If they weren't on to me I'd be worried. To not be part of their dossier is to not leave a record, to not be part of the passion of our time- LewLubka

    by NorthDakotaDemocrat on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:04:50 AM PDT

  •  Seems like a very reasonable position to me. (4.00)
    If you don't like a post, go on to the next, or check the diaries.  

    If you don't like an ad, don't look at it.  Life is too short to waste on stuff that just makes you mad TO NO GOOD PURPOSE.  

    I haven't even seen the pie ad.  I am pretty good at tuning out all ads, audio and visual, and consider it a blessing.  I do still read thing I don't agree with, though, because it is good exercise for the little gray cells.

  •  Well said.. (none)
    Thanks, Markos, for posting this. This is exactly the reason why I came here and stayed in the first place. Blogs and the Netroots are the future, and this blog is exactly what you always said it is and would be.

    You have, imho, always been about the movement and the cause, not your own ego and aggrandisement, and those who don't see that are perhaps missing the point. The internets are the great leveler, so there are many homes for many different points of view -- I can read a dozen blogs in a day, and none of them lose anything from that. We live in a rich, abundant medium, and I have little patience for those that see only scarcity and limitations.

    Keep on blogging: I, for one, support you.

    - Trendar.

    Visit The Blog Roundup - the Best of Politics on the Web.

    by Trendar on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:11:01 AM PDT

  •  applause. (4.00)
    don't agree with your approach to everything, but agree that it's your blog and you've given a lot of people a lot of space and a place to be heard. not required that you flog all our causes as well. btw, i did not click on the ad referred to above. no reason to give them encouragement. heh (to quote armando).

    We get a lot of advice. We tend to listen when somebody's won something. - Joe Lockhart

    by yankeedoodler on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:11:24 AM PDT

  •  Eh, sometime Kos you're very insightful (3.23)
    sometimes you're an immature asshat.

    If I let that bother me, I'd have left when I noticed that you will bend over backwards to defend Dean regardless, and bend over backwards to slam Kerry regarless.

    If you prefer to have your head up your ass and enjoy the view, what's it to me? If people wanna leave, they will. If enough people leave, perhaps you will become an irrelevant immature asshat. Time will tell.

    Don't forget however, that this blog space is what it is not only because of your postings but because of the postings of many thousands of others.

    I would give empathy the old college try if I were you.

    "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

    by Kerrycrat on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:11:31 AM PDT

  •  You go Kos! (4.00)
    This site is great, it lets everyone have their own  "voice" and be heard by like minded folks. There's no need for some to try to use YOUR voice too.

    I can easily see the huge ammount of thought and hard work that it must have been spent to create such a lively, thriving community blog.

    Thanks for taking the time and effort to do it, it is the best blog around!

    We should not use public money to support the further destruction of human life - GW Bush, 5/25/2005, WH East Room

    by lawnorder on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:16:35 AM PDT

  •  What!? No shout out for Unbossed? (4.00)
    I slave away on this site for 2+ years. Workin' my fingers to the bone with a UID lower than the cost of the first car you bought out of high school. And for what?

    Do you think you could try to appreciate me? Buy me flowers? Promote my diaries? Remember my name even?

    </snark>

    Unbought. Unbossed. What democracy should be.

    by em dash on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:16:49 AM PDT

  •  I like this post by KOS... (4.00)
    and feel it provides a nice bookend to this bizarre bickering.  But when I read the comments people have started to post I found a few people who insist on posting more angry comments and, well, more bickering!  Yech. (bad taste in mouth)

    Can you just stop? please?

  •  I wanna say (none)
    go to bed it's late, but I won't.

    What you said works just fine for me.

    "One of the biggest changes in politics in my lifetime is that the delusional is no longer marginal." Bill Moyers

    by Lahdee on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:22:00 AM PDT

  •  I can't help but wonder (none)
    would we be having this conversation if dKos hadn't achieved such success (in terms of number of users)?

    No, of course not, because none of us would be in the same place online talking with one another.  I admit I haven't read Kos' "offensive" comments, but I don't have to.  There are issues we can debate all night, but at the core this is about free speech.

  •  Markos has my vote of confidence (4.00)
    Having been around since the early days of the site (I found it a few months before the 2002 elections), I've seen it go through many evolutions. I haven't always agreed with some of the positions Markos has advocated, but all in all, he's allowed for fair debate about important issues facing the United States.  This site is a great service to the progressive community.

    The best analogy I can think of is this . . . if a newspaper publishes an article you don't like or don't agree with, you can write a letter to the editor advocating your viewpoint. If you're lucky, it gets published. And maybe it influences the newspaper or other readers a little bit. But if it doesn't, you can cancel your subscription and read a different newspaper instead.

    Without wanting to get too involved in the current conflict, I'd like to point out that it is Markos, after all, who created this site. This was (and still is) his soapbox for expressing himself, and he's been kind enough to let us into this community where we can express ourselves. At any point, he easily could have taken steps to curb the growth of this community. And so far, he hasn't. I imagine that he's been countless numbers of hours into building and mainintaining DailyKos, and I cannot bring myself to criticizing someone for their own creation.

    Kos has my vote of support. I only hope that he isn't soured by the negativity that sometimes occurs on this site. On the whole, I think he's done a world of good and brought countless people into the poltiical process who otherwise would have felt disconnected.

  •  Melting Pot (4.00)
    The Daily Kos is America's new type of melting pot. Here is a place where you can find a wide range of opinions and discussions on just about any subject that is not being covered in the MSM.

    That the site has an in built bias is nothing new in the blogosphere. All the blogs are trying to sell you thier version of what's important to them. Pick your reality. Most want to sell you more than what Kos does.

    What makes Kos and the Daily Kos work is the level of tolerance for just about any type of intellgent discussion about the subjects and facts that are being ignored by other outlets.

    Recently Dkos has seen the inclusion of politicians stepping into the world of blogging. This is an amazing step forward for this country. A chance to carry on the great experiment through blogging. Where this going to lead is a great unknown.

    Many people may be upset by all the petty back and forth that occur in the comments but that is how human beings interact. Humanity focuses on the petty since it what seems to get under the skin the best.

    Kos focuses on the larger issues and in this he expands the causes and viewpoints that are important to him. Kos and many other blogs on the Internet are defining this Melting Pot called America in new ways.

    Maybe if anyone who wants to be a part of this new frontier and contibute to the issues Kos feels are most important from day to day then take the time to engage the brain before opening the mouth.

    This is Kos's site. Try to remember that he has invited you to the party he's having before you start trashing his house.

    "We drew the line in the sand, and like the fools they are, they stepped into the abyss." HMSJO

    by hmsjo on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:30:09 AM PDT

  •  I don't get it (4.00)
    I set some time aside tonight to read all the pie diaries, Kos' initial remarks, and the overall concerns, and I just don't see the controversy.

    If Kos had an ad with two gay men throwing pies at each other for some stupid reality show, it wouldn't phase me in the least (as a gay guy myself). They are abviously two consenting adults engaging in whatever they want for whatever company to make a living.

    If I didn't want to view it, I'd click on it and block it via my Firefox browser. End of story for me - onto bigger issues like winning some elections.

    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds - Albert Einstein.

    by GregNYC on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:31:28 AM PDT

    •  That's Exactly My Impression (none)
      n/t

      "Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace." - Albert Schweitzer

      by commandercuckoobananas on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 03:15:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The ad wasn't offensive to me (4.00)
      I have hesitated posting here because I actually am concerned that I will be pelted with insults and condescension. This is how I feel about the whole thing and what I posted on Booman where I felt I at least wouldn't get insulted for my opinion. Since people seem more subdued today I suppose I'll give it whirl.

      The pie fight ad did catch my eye because it was so out of place on the site. I don't normally worry about what other women want to do with their time, whether it's going to church, sewing, dressing up like a little girl and play fighting... Those are things I personally would never do but I believe a woman can make their own choices. However, it belongs in a certain place. I am one of those women who actually enjoys reading Playboy - and yes I read it but I do look at the pictures, too. I bought a subscription for my husband as an anniversary gift, it doesn't bother me in the slightest because we talk about what's in it, together. That doesn't mean that I can't understand why some people would not approve of it, and I can respect that.

      What I can not tolerate, however, was the reaction by some of the commenters and yes kos. I saw things like "Get a life and get laid" and "you have no sense of humor" and "you're just being a prude" and "you're acting just like republican moralists" etc. That is unacceptable. Seeing people rate that up is unacceptable. Laughing at others concerns - unacceptable. Calling people stupid for being offended - unacceptable. I know why this bugs me so much, because it reminds me of the elections.

      These are the same types of dismissals that all progressives were handed by the media and republicans. How are their insults any different than: You're not patriotic because you're against the war, Shut up and support the president because we're at WAR, You're either with or against us...?

      I'm a 27 year old female, I've never taken a women's history or women's study class, but I'm a woman and I think I know what I find offensive.

      I am by no means a substantial part of this community. I don't feel that I get offended easily. When I go to an expensive restaurant I don't expect to be treated the same as if I go to McDonald's and I may be offended at one place while not at the other because I have expectations. I am all for free speech, but that doesn't mean that people can't practice self censorship, decorum and class. They have a right to say it, I have a right to be disappointed by it. Saying that I'm stupid or on the rag or need to get laid is not debate and it's really sad that there are some people who are supporting that sort of attitude by first not condemning it and second rating it up.

  •  Elections? (2.33)
    This is a site about electoral issues, the netroots, and Iraq. Period.
    (emphasis mine)
    Hmmm?  Guess I missed that during Nov. and Dec., when most Dems. thought the past election, like 2000, was stolen.

    I don't mean Karl Rove coordinated a hacking of all voting machines, it could have been much more systematic, or much less systematic for that matter then that.  Still, the point is we all knew something was wrong, and the "Liberal" bloggers, eager to be "Progressives" didn't want to fall into the Repubs. tinfoil hat trap, so the issue was just avoided.

    If Kos truly believes nothing sketchy happened and our elections are perfectly safe, then that is fine.  If he, and any others, were waiting for a smoking gun, I'm afraid we don't have a Deepthroat or a Prez. who tapes evil plots.

    My sense though is that many bloggers followed the same path that killed Kerry, Gore, and every liberal that tries to be, "mainstream," whatever that is: they won't fight a battle that is perceived as losing (elections, Iraq) and try to outsmart the Thugs by not doing what they are expected to do (challenge the Supreme Court-Gore, protest Ohio-Kerry, call Bush a "liar," everyone).

    •  Um hmmm (4.00)
      I am glad you brought that up.

      There is as much fact in your comment as there is in the charges being made that this site is deliberately anti-women.

      The two schools are cut from the same cloth.

      Markos wrote something that was a serious mistake. He apologized for it.

      But there are some that prefer to continue to spread the lie that this site and markos are anti-women.

      It is fair to complain about what was written. It is not fair to falsely smear markos and this site.

      And many are doing so. And I have not one whit of respect for that.

      The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

      by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:42:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  you're pouring it on pretty thick (none)
        maybe I am too, come to think of it.

        that "spreading lies" rhetoric is fucked up.

        maybe you have some examples and I'd reconsider case by case.

        ?

      •  Are you responding to the right post? (none)
        Your post seems to be all about this anti-women pie thing which I really know nothing about and am not talking about.

        My post does contain conjecture and is based on assumptions, the main assumption being that Kos saw something wrong with the election, but didn't use his giant megaphone to say much about it.

        I'd be happy to have some counterpoint to my actual post there are no "facts" in the post, but to just smear and whine as if my little comment has any effect on Kos is ridiculous and counterproductive.  I have not one whit of respect for that.

    •  Finally (4.00)
      The Fraudsters and Pie kerfluffles meet at last.  All is well with the world.
    •  Do a Diary (none)
      on this then as many of us would read it and recommend it. It does not have to be covered front page or by Kos. I have never had a diary recommended and it does not bother me in the least. I am not here to advance my causes but to learn more and participate more in the overall process, looking at whatever issues are being discussed that day.  I am just a tiny part of larger movement. None of us are more important than the cause, the goal, the purpose.  I guess I have thick skin and a very open mind or I have seen too much in my lifetime to get bent of shape, it takes a helluva lot more than a blog to do that. I just have to listen to Bush if I want to get pissed off. Compare what he is doing to destroy this country and them come here, there is no comparison. This place is a blessed haven compared to Bush world of the right wingers.
      Most any liberal or Democratic blog is a haven of peace compared to the Right wingers hateful filled blogs.

      We choose hope over despair; possibilities over problems, optimism over cynicism.-John Edwards

      by wishingwell on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:45:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you, kos (4.00)
    The points that you made are very helpful in judging you favorably. They reflect my view that your snapping was no different than what you usually do, only it came across as being at a broad swath of readers.
    OTOH, electoral politics is bound up with standing for something. The most important thing that Democrats can stand for is human liberty and dignity in these times. This certainly includes the liberty and dignity of women and all minorities. If Democrats took issues that have been ghettoized as identity politics and special interests and framed them as issues of fairness and community, we would get many more of the traditional Democratic women and minority voters. If we ran strong civil liberties candidates, we could say "Whoever is for America, to me!" and appeal to the common interest.

    "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, who am I? And if not now, when?" (Hillel was a liberal)

    by 4jkb4ia on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:38:18 AM PDT

    •  Well (4.00)
      only it came across as being at a broad swath of readers
      It didn't just "come across" that way, it WAS unintentionally directed at a broad swath of readers. That was my fuckup, and I apologized for that. I caught hell for that and I deserved it. I'm cool with that.

      But I won't back down because a vocal segment of the community demands action on any particular issue I disagree with. Whether that means John Kerry, Ohio fraud, or the Pie ad. We've had these fights before, and we will in the future.

      I'm confident we'll survive this just like the previous incidents because this site, quite frankly, is larger than me, any bloc of posters, or that stupid pie ad.

      •  You've offended different groups... (none)
        ...for different reasons. Among them:

        • Those who insisted you take down the pie ad. They're a relatively small group, and you seem willing to let them remain offended.

        • Practically everyone who cares about women's issues. That's most people here, and you apologized to them. Sincerely, I think.

        • Those who think you're a misogynist, or want to jettison women's issues. I don't think these peoples' view of you is accurate; but you've pushed a lot of people into this camp, and done nothing to address their concerns.

        • Those who think you don't realize how pervasive bias against women is in society, and are unconsciously perpetuating that bias in your site. That's where I fall. And I don't hold you culpable for that -- or no more so than any other member of society. But your initial apology in the Pie Fight diary (referring to "a small, extremist set looking for signs of female subjugation under every rock") sounded to me like it was directed at us.

        I think there's a lot of confusion over who you're attacking, who you're apologizing to, and who you see yourself as being attacked by.


        Those who cannot remember the future are condemned to repeat it.

        by Abou Ben Adhem on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 03:23:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Translation: All Your Base Belong to Us! (none)
    Sorry - must sleep now - feeling loopy.

    PolisPundit - An Agenda for a New Liberalism

    by goblue72 on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:41:58 AM PDT

  •  Hey if Edwards and Dean (none)
    do not hold grudges about  what the other says and find common ground, I think we can.
    After all, everyone here wants the same thing ultimately.

    We choose hope over despair; possibilities over problems, optimism over cynicism.-John Edwards

    by wishingwell on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:54:29 AM PDT

  •  Pi R Squared (4.00)
    I hear people talking about respect, but I do wonder what kos could have done - short of taking down the ad - that would have been construed as respecting those who feel disrespected.  I'm new around here, so I don't know the culture as well as I probably need to in order for my opinion to be well-informed, but it seems to me that unless kos took the ad down the reaction would have been more or less the same.  Personally, I'm just as offended by the rampant consumptionism and materialism that is portrayed in most advertising as I am with the sexuality and sexism found in many advertisements.  If I were to get bent out of shape about every ad that offended me then I would spend the sum-total of my existence railing against advertising.

    I see four possible solutions to the pie ad (other than kos killing the ad):


    1. Ignore it - scroll and move on
    2. Quit - leave for greener pastures
    3. Subscribe - help defray the costs of keeping dKos running and eliminate ads from your dKos experience
    4. Switch to Firefox - and get the Ad Block extension to eliminate ads that you find offensive.

    And, of course, there is the option of writing a couple hundred more pie diaries kvetching about Markos until George P. Bush is president.  The bottom line is that this circle is not going to get squared - so what are we going to do now? Patriot Act 2 is coming down the pike - we might want to knuckle up for that fight instead of running around in circles trying to bite off our own tails.

  •  This is a natural process (4.00)
    As others have said, this was just the last straw for people who felt they were slighted. There's a lot of nervous energy going around because so many people worked their asses off last year, peeling away all that cynicism and believing if they really gave their blood and sweat and heart they could defeat the most dangerous politician in American history. It didn't happen. And now we're back in 2003 again, only without any hands to lead us out of the darkness. We're angry, surprised, and hurt. That leads to ugly rows over what others see as "little" things.

    As a gay man (shocker I know) I have sometimes felt very worthless and isolated here (although Kos has never been respsonible for that, it was more from the diaries), and when that feeling gets the best of me I take a hiatus. I leave and sometimes I wonder if I will come back. I have so far. I may not one day.

    That's my choice. And ultimately the women and men who have left DKos over this issue have made their own choice. Diary after diary raging at Kos over this issue will not bring them back. It probably won't change his mind. It's only going to make you feel better. So if you want to feel better, go ahead, but cloaking yourself in a sea of righteousness this late in the game is pointless.

    As for my personal opinion - I'm not a big fan of the ad. I think its crass. But I don't run this site. The site is a privelege, a gift to readers, a gift that we can return at any time. I just ignore the ads. If I could get through months of "lipstick on a pig", this ad doesn't bother me. And if I saw an ad on here which I felt demeaned gays, then I would leave. I would be disappointed, but ultimately that is the only option I have.

    Anyway, I may not agree with Kos on this issue or that issue or on some political candidates and campaigns, but I think this site has held up pretty well considering all the new members and all the pressure. Most sites don't change - they die, and the corpse rots before our eyes before becoming a skeleton shaped like a 404. The only sites that survive are those that change. Daily Kos just changed. And whether it hurts or harms now, in the long run it was probably for the best.

  •  All good fun (4.00)
    and we all need to fight and vent at each other sometimes. Scream at each other over our imperfections. Tell each other how our thoughs are incorrect.

    But can we finish up the navel gazing now and get back to business? We've got evil corrupt lying enemies of everything America, Christ and morality stand for in power. Two concentration camps open and running. Most of the world beginning to see us for what we are.. the biggest threat to mankind in half a century.

    Its time to get back to the business of defeating the darkness.

    The Democratic party needs to adopt its own moral and values principles (clawed)

    by cdreid on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 03:09:06 AM PDT

  •  Kos doesn't get it (4.00)
    It's about a lack of respect for pie.

    This site has been a home for pie-haters for years now, and it's time someone called him on it.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident . . .

    by LeftCoastTimm on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 03:18:31 AM PDT

  •  What Daily Kos is (2.63)
    The fundamental purpose of this site is to make money (to keep the site running; maybe some profit, I do not know), and more importantly, a Washington reputation for Kos, for the purposes of securing him employment in the world of Democratic political consultancy and/or Beltway journalism.  Which is a perfectly valid reason to go through the work of putting up a website like this, and I congratulate him on his success.  You have to be a very capable person to do that. It's been a very efficient operation.  (And anyone who puts up an online shingle of any size or type is doing it for some form of personal gratification, financial or otherwise.)

    Women posters helped produce buzz and traffic here, as have gay posters, a handful of black posters, and everyone else.  Now that the site is burgeoning with thousands of posters, diaries flying by at an impossible clip, and now that there are national and international writing gigs and book deals, Kos needs not be concerned with the consequences of any comments he makes about anyone, really.   If a "certain segment" or sub-segment of his herd escapes, so what.  The website has served its purpose and as long as it maintains the illusion of being a buzzing center of Democratic discussion and activity, it works.  It's all about utilizing the Democratic brand.

    At some point this site will become a hindrance rather than a help to Kos' goals, however, and he will either totally lease out the operation to friends or proteges, or he will just close shop and move on.  Nothing shocking about that.

    I wonder how much of the site's success has depended, however, on individual Democrats like myself not really seeing this primary purpose clearly for what it is.  (I'm sure no one has been totally ignorant of it.)  It's important that people buying into the idea of a Democratic web community don't feel their buzz and presence is being used for someone else's profit; you have to maintain that illusion.  This is business, not trickery.  Kos doesn't seem interested in maintaining that illusion any longer for "a certain segment" of his buzz-generating resources.    Which is his right.  It is, after all, his factory/playground and we have found it worthwhile to work/play here.

    I feel I have gotten a clearer picture, however, of the real values of this Washington Democratic crowd that Kos seems trying so hard to belong to.

    I'm here commenting on this because I do think it's important to engage in political and media critique - without malice.  Really meaningful critique only happens when you are still part of the system you are commenting on.  But then again, it's not "our" system; this is not part of real-world democracy.  It's Kos' operation, and if he wants to downsize his "work force," that's his choice.

    As has been explained before, the ad is not the issue.  Pie fights are not the issue.  No one much cares what red-blooded American men (or women?) get turned on by in the privacy of their own bedrooms, or choose to write on their own blogs, or even their own Kos diaries.

    The issue which has finally broken through is the tone that the webmaster of this site -- a site which has made its reputation and fame and profit by trading on the Democratic Party brand -- sets by his public postings.  The tone that is set affects everyone in various ways.  It has affected a lot of longtime community members in a very negative way.

    Some of us may have misunderstood the fundamental purpose of this site, and our role in that purpose.  Even so, many people may choose to continue to participate (unless the webmaster chooses to prevent that), but perhaps with a new and more clear-eyed, mature understanding of what the Daily Kos web project is all about.

    For Kossack women who want to talk: womenkossacks.blogspot.com.

    by NYCO on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 03:38:00 AM PDT

    •  Nice fantasy (3.76)
      The fundamental purpose of this site is to make money (to keep the site running; maybe some profit, I do not know), and more importantly, a Washington reputation for Kos, for the purposes of securing him employment in the world of Democratic political consultancy and/or Beltway journalism.

      Considering that a) I'm not a consultant, b) I'm not a journalist, and c) I live as far away from the "beltway" as is humanly possible in the contigious 48 states, I think my evil plan is misfiring disastrously.

      Care to give this conspiracy theory another shot?

      •  This is the agenda (4.00)
        that lies behind some of this.

        You were wrong in your expression, you apologized.

        It does not fit the agenda of some to notice it.

        It DOES fit there theory to write things like that.

        The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

        by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 08:05:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  kos is anti-woman (1.00)

        will be what most people who care about these issues will think of you.

        i dont know if you plan on a future in the democratic party, i just hope you dont have one.

        "You will determine whether rage or reason guides the United States in the struggle to come. You will choose whether we are known for revenge or compassion. Yo

        by AmericanHope on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 08:32:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Rediculous hyperbol (none)
          Very sad.
        •  god (4.00)
          kos deserves a little more consideration than that.

          so what if he's the biggest asshole in the world on these issues... it's not like he's not contributed or contributing.

          comments like that make it hard to carry the case really... I mean, I'm trying to say, "sensitivity matters"... "attunement and engagement rule", "when you don't understand, first try to understand".

          But these insult... shit, this guy has let a lot of things be said in a medium where everyone else bans like crazy.  He lets himself be criticized fairly... we expect that, of course... but you know what, usually that expectation is rejected, and this is something kos deserves a lot of credit.

          IOW: Kos HAS THE THICK SKIN that is required to listen to him sometimes.  He is not a hypocrite.  And for that much you shouldn't burn a bridge, even if you do have to leave to feel clear of an atmosphere that follows from his perspectives... there is no reason to insist on making that bad blood.

    •  No. NOT women kossacks. (4.00)
      For Kossack women who want to talk: womenkossacks.blogspot.com.

      Really?  Because I'm a woman, and I don't feel even a tiny bit welcome there.  In fact, I actually resent your using the phrase "women kossacks" very much.  It's not for "women kossacks."  It's for people who found themselves on a particular side of a particular dustup over a particular issue.  Frankly, in context I find the title of that site every bit as disrespectful of women's individual autonomy as I found any of the circumstances that gave rise to this situation.  Every time I see it, it makes me genuinely angry.  I've spent my whole life not being woman enough for one element or another of society.  It seems a shame to find it here, too.  Every time I see it, it makes me genuinely angry.

      •  Drawing the bounds of femininity (4.00)
        Exhibit #384

        One point I would like to make--and it's a bit touchy --is the complicity by which some women at dKos fuel the locker room towel snapping. I think we have a responsibility to straighten out our sisters when they're too busy whoring for 4s, perpetuating undercover troll rating, and maintaining an ill-informed stance.

        This is from womenkossacks.

        Ponder carefully.

      •  How presumptuous they are! (4.00)
        "Women Kossacks" my rear end - I've been fighting for my rights in a man's world my whole life, and what I find so funny about this cat and dog fight is that some of these "woman Kossacks" are guilty of the same "crimes" they have leveled at Kos: They have been rude, dismissive of an opinon because of the poster's gender, and have created an environment that is not "welcoming" to all. Where is their apology to the community. As a woman, I can take whatever any man throws at me here and I will not be scared off. I don't want to participate in anything where ideological purity is demanded.That's not life, and it's in real life where the Dems need to win elections. Finally, I think it is interesting that Kos presented the Atrio's post (a site where I lurk and one which is verbally a hell of lot more aggressive and anti-PC than here, I might ad), and it's apparent Atrios is going through the same thing. Whine, whine, whine. Everyone wants their favorite blog to really be about them and their pet concern. If you want that - start your own blog.
        •  Rebuttal (4.00)
          AnneElizabeth writes: "As a woman, I can take whatever any man throws at me here As a woman, I can take whatever any man throws at me here

          I know you can. So can I, I've had lots  of practice over six decades, and I for one am damned sick of it.

          >>> and I will not be scared off.

          Good for you. Stay, and do your part on the front lines then. Ther are many of us who would really like to retire, and take off this damned armor.

          >>I don't want to participate in anything where ideological purity is demanded.That's not life, and it's in real life where the Dems need to win elections

          I have never expected ideological purity here, or anywhere else. I also did not hear any of the women who have objected here demanding any such thing.

          Nor have I heard any of them asking Kos to be the head cheerleader for womens issues or being mad  at him for refusing.

          What I am hearing is a refusal to accept that even here, on a liberal, progressive political site, we will just have to a) live with the same kind of dismissive, demeaning, sexist  "power over" interactions from males we've put up with forever, and we yes,  have to put up with seeing bare womens asses displayed on the front page, or else.. we can just ...b) leave!

          No, I don't need Kos to write all about womens rights. I don't care what he writes about, says, or believes. What I CARE about, is that clearly, he doesn't care, about a sizable portion of the members of this community, enough to honestly listen to what we ARE saying to him, over what he THINKS we're saying.

          I care that I am seeing little willingness to truly hear our voices on the part of waaay too many here, who are so quick to tell us not to let the door hit us in the ass on the way out.  

          I care that  when we must go,(so as to stop fighting the same freaking battle to be respected over and over) .. we take our considerable dedication to the common causes and the considerable skills and talents were have to offer with us, and the reaction to that is "Who cares?"

          You don't win elections by alienating those within your own camp. Not when it is so damned easy to include us. All it takes is a wllingness to listen, to hear, to validate and acknowledge our  right to have an opinion that may not match yours, rather than attack us for it.  Just modicum of williness to learn from those with different life experiences, rather than to asume your own is the only valid one.

          That takes a degree of maturity that is often missing here, in my opinion.  

          Silence is Complicity

          by scribe on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 07:46:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I understand what you're saying (none)
            And I hope you can hear that not every woman here agrees with your interpretation of what you're hearing.

            No doubt about it, nasty comments made.  But not just from "power over" males.  

            You said, "I have never expected ideological purity here, or anywhere else. I also did not hear any of the women who have objected here demanding any such thing."

            I agree with AnneElizabeth.  Perhaps you didn't hear that because you agree with those comments that lead to our hearing that undertone in them so you didn't take it as such.  That's understandable but as AnneElizabeth points out, that is doing what you are accusing others of doing.  You aren't listening to her, you are defending you.  

            Without a doubt there are some on this liberal, progressive blog who have have posted dismissive and demeaning comments.  But not everyone on this blog posting are liberal, progressive people.  There are trolls, there are posers.  And there are even liberal, progressive people who said some hurtful stuff.  I've seen two direct apologies, Kos and MaryScott.  There could be more, imho.

            I hear your frustration in continually having to deal with the same issue(s) over and over.  Yeah, it's tiring.  Sometimes you just want to find a refuge from it all.  Is there anyone, male or female, that hasn't felt like that sometimes?  An internet blog, even a liberal, progressive one,  won't be that place.  It's too anonymous, it's filled with the trolls and the posers.  You can find common ground here and maybe even meet some people and make some friends as a result.  But this place will require continuing to fight the battle because of its very nature.

      •  I hope no one minds... (none)
        I'm reposting part of my comment from another part of the thread, because I think it fits better here with your comments, HPB and Anne Elizabeth. NYCO does not speak for me either.

        I am a woman and I am staying. Sorry I can't get all riled up and personally offended over a silly ad and an offhanded comment. The reaction here is more disturbing to me than the ad or the comment, frankly. Because a small but vocal group of angry people couldn't intimidate Markos into removing the ad or discussing their particular concerns, they all flee the most interesting and productive democratic website on the internet? It seems self-defeating, extreme and a bit silly to me.

        Hey, I'm all for creating new blogs and spreading the wealth of insightful, productive dailykos minds around the internet. But this angry exodus is like a big GBCW diary. Why must everyone flame Markos and dailykos now that they've decided to leave?

        I'm conflicted about porn, about female athletes posing in Maxim magazine, and about advertising that exploits huge fake boobs and girl-on-girl action. I get angry when one of my male friends say things like "FHM magazine gives my wife something to aspire to..." (his wife is a 5'2", 150 pound, pale and soft-bodied irish girl.)

        But it would be more distasteful to me as a strong, independent woman to jump on the bandwagon of dailykos/Markos bashers and leave the site as part of an angry mob. I'm not a "follow the mob" kind of woman.

        Plus I like men a lot and I'd rather play with the boys than fight with them.

        When Americans think of a scary person in a black robe, they should be thinking of Darth Vader, not Republican choices for judges...Sen. Harry Reid

        by pacific city on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 09:29:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks , PC! (none)
          I'm glad you, too, are staying.

          I'm still hoping the pie fight turns into a "Gilliard" type of discussion about culture, beauty, advertising, and more...

          "You can't awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."-Navajo saying.

          by quartzite on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 10:40:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Hear, hear.. (none)
        The blogosphere is overwhelmingly a boys' club (but they love Wonkette because she's cute, foul mouthed, and doesn't actually cause the slightest spark of actual political controversy).  I fucking hate that, just like I hate the way the music world is the same way.  But is the answer to run off and build our own enclave in the corner somewhere?  I don't know.  I don't think it is.  I'm just a Kossack, if I even want to adopt a name for it, not a Woman Kossack.  Kill Blog Stars.. <sigh>.  I like Amanda's post over at the Pandagon, though.  I'd like to see more feminist blogs and diaries.  Feminism is good for everybody.

        Fight this generation, fight this generation...

        by daria g on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 10:58:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Wow (4.00)
      That's an extraordinarily cynical take on what Kos is about.  So cynical it's almost Roveian. But I think you're probably being sincere, so here goes:

      I've felt increasing discomfort at the way some people here have been claiming to speak for All Women.  It silences me as much as a sexist putdown from a man does, if not more so.

      I've met plenty of men who talk the feminist talk, then acted like an asshole.  Any guy with half a brain can tell you what you want to hear.  Much better to deal with someone honest like Kos, shoots straight from the hip.  

      Your comment is mean-spirited and slanderous. It also puts Women(TM) in the role of victim again. And of course, a shout out for gays and blacks. Now THAT I find offensive.

      We are facing a fascist takeover of the world's biggest, most powerful democracy (just) and you're leaving because you don't like Kos's "tone".  I see. Very interesting.  And thanks for the heads-up re Kos's nefarious plot.

      Good luck with the new blog. Shame you can't see that we're all on the same side.  Or are we?      

  •  electoral issues, the netroots, and Iraq (4.00)
    This is exactly why I come here.

    Which is why I find it odd that the site doesn't see that parading a woman's ass on the left hand column doesn't help much towards a winning electoral strategy.

    Now, when I can convince someone more mainstream and more establishment but intrigued by the new progessivism on the net to check out dailyKos, they see ass first, words on issues second.  Not helpful, and 2006 is right around the corner.

    I'm also a little sad that this post implies that environmental issues are separate from electoral ones.  One big reason I seek out the netroots is that establishment Dems have all but abandoned putting a priority on it.

  •  tulip's $.02 (4.00)
    I love when Kos posts a 'this site is" thing. When I found this place, initially, I was thrilled to find a place that focuses most on the struggle to oust the Busheviks. This-- in all its permutations-- is what I focus on, partly because it is, so far, the only thing I can do something about & partly because I believe nothing important will really change until they are removed from power.  

    I cannot in good conscience ignore Iraq, but truthfully I only read the minimum. It is all too horrific and I hate the helpless grief of wallowing in injustice misery and death.  Mainly I look for ways to help. I look for things I can take action on. Where, how can I be effective?  I'll settle for small change, for incremental change. I'll celebrate every single victory, no matter how trifling, against this regime.  If there's anyway I can help, I'll do it.

    I am also grateful for the opportunity to rant, though that need has greatly diminished lately (since Schiavo, the R's have nothing but blunder, which has wonders for my rant ratio) & for the company of like-minded people.

    Every time anything to do with sexuality or the body comes up -- from abortion to porn-- a brawl breaks out.  I include issues of faith in that. I don't entirely understand why they're so connected-- issues of guilt, perhaps-- but omigod are they ever. Frankly, most of it bores me.

    I love this place and I admire Kos. I like his choices; his radar works gorgeously, I think.  And I especially love it when he tells people where to get off.  

    heh.

    •  typed too soon (4.00)
      sorry to the folks who gave me 4's.  I posted that reaction after only reading a bit of what was there-- having missed the whole big deal-- have heretofore felt extremely loyal to Kos & the site.

      Worst luck, I went back and read the Pie Fight Diaries-- and was frankly shocked at some of the schoolboy hijinx. Even worse, I remember the names of the ranters, the sexists, the crappy jokesters & felt my stomach churn when I ran into their (generally trimphant) posts on this morning's go-round.

      It's not acceptable.  Also, do not think posters like cdReid & Admiral Santa would have been so openly base without the permission that Kos' post tacitly bestowed.

      Don't know whether I'll be able to continue to hang around here or not.  I'll give it a couple of days before deciding.  But this was not like one of the fights during the primaries.  This was actually a series of ferocious insults to an entire gender.  
      Damn.

      •  There were a lot (4.00)
        of assinine comments as well as some attempts at humor where none should have been made.

        I think too many people are missing a very important point though. A lot of this started because people felt attacked and that's true for both sides. The minute someone feels attacked they get defencive and as it goes on they get belligerent. Lines were drawn and whoever was on the other side of the perceived lines were now the enemy. It looks like it kept building like a wildfire.

        Very stupid things were said on both sides of the issue. I think appoligies are in order from a great many posters but they are still too deep inside the rage to begin to see that.

      •  I'm famous (none)
        Sorry you think I'm a crappy jokester. I post crappy jokes all the time, regardless of Kos' tone. Take a look at my post history.
  •  Long Past Time to Move On (none)
    And the only way to move on is to just do it. Not talk about it, but do it.

    I think real wounds have been opened up here. But wounds heal if they're allowed to heal. Maybe there are more interesting things that can be said about all of this, but the core issues here aren't time sensitive. We're all exhausted now. Let's all shut up, talk about other things, and if we really feel like returning to this mess in a week, we can.

    Then again, I'm posting this after having just read over 250 comments on this, so perhaps I should practice what I preach.

  •  Progressive Star Power (2.75)
    There was an awful lot of "I" in your post, Kos. Funny, I always though DailyKos was more of a "We" thing.

    But hey, Kos, you're a star now, so I guess the emphasis on "I" is understandable.

    Back to Booman I slink.

    "I must create a system or be enslaved by another man's." - William Blake

    by Tod Westlake on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 06:08:34 AM PDT

    •  can't win for trying (4.00)
      <1st dip of toes in to Pie controversy>

      There was an awful lot of "I" in your post, Kos. Funny, I always though DailyKos was more of a "We" thing.

      I assume there was so much "I", as you put it, because so much of the criticism was directed at kos personally, not at DailyKos the entity. Regardless of what side of the P.C. they fell on, lots of people have been asking him to explain himself.  He did, IMHO. So speaking for himself, explaining himself, defining what his purpose and interests are here at his sandbox, and that gets him shit too?  I don't understand.

      Silence is the voice of complicity.

      by brillig on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 06:28:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think that was his point (none)
      Go to Booman and have fun. I won't miss you and judging by the elevated number of postings over the past few days and the increased traffic to this blog, I doubt kos will miss you either. For people who want a specific gender issues related blog or a more sanitized blog there are thousands out there, so take your pick.

      If you don't like the ads go to a smaller blog that doesn't need advertising to keep up the cost of running such a blog. In fact, it's ads that keep this blog operating in such a smooth fashion. Apparently very few of you have worked in marketing. It's very hard to garner advertising for a blog in the first place and it's even harder to bring in advertising to a "liberal" blog. So I'm happy with the pie ad and the porn/phone sex ads in the village voice, etc, because they help this community.

      Much of this seems like biting the hand that feeds you, which could lead to a larger discussion about why we are losing elections. We aren't unified. We have democratic "leadership" bickering back and forth about petty stuff like this. If you don't think this is petty go check out sudan. I just got back from sudan last month and compared to world hunger, AIDS, supreme court battles, corporate corruption, the environment, etc, this is absurd.  

      •  You misunderstand me (none)
        You're inferring a whole shit-load of stuff that I neither said nor implied.

        I couldn't give a flying fuck about the ad or the controversy. I know women who would find it offensive and others who wouldn't.

        I just didn't like the ego bleeding through in this particular post. I cite as an example this particularly self-centered sentence:

        "I am not the end-all, be-all of liberal blogging. I cannot be everything to everyone."

        I was only commenting on the fact that DailyKos is not an "I" thing -- it is a "We" thing, hence my snarky remark. I think Kos should tone it down a bit. That's all.

        I actually love the site, by the way, and appreciate all the hard work everyone does here, not just Kos, if you get my drift.

        We're on the same side. Please don't sling around a bunch of accusation which have no reflection on the comment being made.

        Oh and blogging isn't an Olympic sport, last I checked, so why the competitiveness?

        Odd.

        "I must create a system or be enslaved by another man's." - William Blake

        by Tod Westlake on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 07:09:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  agreed (none)
          True. I think that the statement you quoted is pretty "I" centered, which really does nothing to help push a helpful dialogue.

          If blogging were an Olympic sport I'm pretty sure Michael Phelps would beat us all:). No, actually if blooging were a sport, few would watch and those that did would be very polarized. So, you'd see a bunch of advertising about tents and vegetarian substitutes on one end and then evil and SUVs on the other:).

          I also agree that I appreciate what everyone does here. I'm a new member and I joined because there is a genuine upbeat nature to this board.

          Keep on blogging and pushing the progressive message. After seeing the main news lines off of Yahoo News, MSN news and the like with Dean saying GOP is the party for the "Christians", I think we've got a lot of work to do!

    •  then why are you posting here? n/t (none)
      •  Because I Feel Like it. (none)
        And to personally annoy you (he said, tongue planted firmly in cheek). ;)

        Seriously, if the Kos community can't take a little internal criticism, then we are right and truly fucked.

        "I must create a system or be enslaved by another man's." - William Blake

        by Tod Westlake on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 10:50:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Inappropriate (4.00)
    I'm really coming late to the whole controversy; but, the "pie" ad is just so incredibly inappropriate.  

    You, Kos, have done far more than simply create, and maintain, a blog.  You have, possibly inadvertently, created a community and a living space for thousands of likeminded people.  For three years, the community has grown and thrived.  Yet, now, the community is being splintered by something as silly as an advertisement which you, amazingly, did not have the good sense to turn down.

    Given what this blog represents to the community that's grown around it, the inclusion of the "pie" advertisement is about as inappropriate as pinning a french fry to my evening gown before attending the opera.  The advertisement is just so incredibly inappropriate.

    •  Yawn (none)
      If this community is "splintered" by something as silly as a pie advertisement then it's not a community at all. Second, if you find it inappropriate don't buy anything from the seller or view the ad. Third, how much have you donated to this site to keep it up and running? Kos has the right to say what he wants and put up any advertiser who's willing to spend precious advertising cash on the likes of such a fickle audience. Al Franken recently addressed this topic directly regarding Air America Radio and how advertisers often view advertising through "liberal" channels is counterproductive.
       
      •  Excuse Me? (none)
        I stand by my comments.  The "pie" advertisement is incredibly inappropriate.  It's insanely demeaning to women, and it's absolutely amazing that someone like markos would even consider posting such an ad, much less actually display it on the front page.  

        I stand by my comments.  If you don't like them, don't read them.

        •  comments (none)
          I like your comments. They just seem unbalanced and over the top. If he had put up that citibank commercial with the three shirtless, shaved, and lathered guys waiting on women on this site there wouldn't be much said. I'm male and I wouldn't call it "insanely demeaning to women". Have you read Faulkner?
          Also, if he were to allow an advertisement by some show like Everybody Loves Raymond, which has some of the most serious and mindless stereotypes being played out weekly then there probably would be very little fuss. I don't think you've been alive very long if you think an advertisement showing girls pie fighting is "insanely demeaning to women". I work as a professor and I've worked as a group therapist and I have seen first hand things that are "insanely demeaning to women" and this isn't on the radar.
          I just got back from Sudan and they know what is "insanely" demeaning.
          I actually think your comments are very helpful and appreciate them and I wouldn't want you to do anything other than stand by them. It's issues like these that really display the broad spectrum of personalities and views of every person here. I don't think you're being overly sensitive but there is a time when issues like this make a mountain out of a mole hill.
      •  Speaking of donating to this site..... (none)
        You have been registered and donating to this site exactly how many seconds, again?  
        •  point? (none)
          I never said anything about donating to the site. I said things like this shouldn't "splinter" a community. I didn't claim to be here long.

          But, it's nice to know that I'm appreciated here. Thanks

          Treating new kos members and fellow progressives like that shows no taste on your part and further illustrates my point about the lack of a unified party.

          Also, it's not as if I need a history of contribution on this site in order to post. My views are just as worth while as your passing one line jabs at my membership.

          •  You questioned the commenters contribution to the (none)
            site as though you were suggesting  her right to comment about its content should be based on HER contribution.  I was wondering, and still do, why this should be something you would post on your first day of posting.

            Some of your other statements seem a little upfront and forward for a firstday poster, too.  Generally, someone new to something, doesn't take such a strident tone,take a side, but hangs back a little , gets a feel for the place, and then enters the action.

            Especially when this whole thing is about a building up of feelings over a period of time over a number of issues, and isn't about the obvious, necessarily, ad.  Your ID# is 54990, but I wondering if you have been here before, you seem so familiar with things on your first day.

            If this truely is your first day, then WElcome.  Hope you feel at home with the give and take here, because this is a good initiation.  You might have noticed already,  there are days that you might not feel welcome here.  But that doesn't mean the democratic party is divided.  DKos is not the Democratic Party.

            •  first day (none)
              I started checking out the site about a week ago after hearing about it on Huffingtonpost. I don't usually have much time to comment on the board but it seems like fun. I realize that dkos isn't the democratic party but most of the people here are progressives of some sort. I think you can see a trend in places like this that are present in the current democratic party.

              You act like I'm taking on a uber difficult topic or something. I'm a psych phd student at unc, I've read a lot and I know quite a bit about gender studies. I feel like I can contribute to a discussion filled with some who know very little about the subject. I thought I might be able to provide some brief info without throwing a long list of literary journals at them.

              I will have some posts that are friendly and some that are not. I'm not trying to build up "feelings over a period of time". I'm trying to add a little insight into a very uninformed blog topic that was basically, "I'm offended" and then people saying "you shouldn't be offended". If you think that it takes time on a blog to develop knowledge on gender studies then that's incorrect.

              You seem like a pretty decent person or you wouldn't be on this site. I'm a member of another blog and I've never dismissed someones comment because they were a newbie to that blog. If that's the main dig at my post then why even post what you posted?

        •  advertising (none)
          I usually let advertisers pay for things like this. I donate personal funds to PACs I find worthy. I would recommend Moveon.org, Commoncause, etc. Advertisers should absorb the cost of maintaining such an excellent site, which frees up progressives to put money in other places. Why do you think Fox News is thriving right now? Their advertisers pay for the opportunity to connect with a mainly upper middle class white audience. Liberal blogs don't have advertisers drooling over the prospect of using marketing dollars to fund an ad that will run on the "liberal" end of the internet. I am very happy with anyone who wants to run advertisements on this site. At the end of the day, someone has to pay the bills.  
  •  and with this new log on the fire... (4.00)
    ...away we go again!

    Thats what you get for metablogging. heh.

    undercaffeinated

    by odum on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 06:58:42 AM PDT

  •  still wondering why... (none)
    •  What? (none)
      PEMDAS! Do you realize that your equation would exponentially increase the number of Bush jrs? :0. Then if you throw jeb into the equation I'll have to start throwing pies myself.

      But really, to your point. If you are equating the two in any way then you obviously haven't been paying attention. You can't take someone who tramples state rights, civil liberties, and puts the country into 14 digit deficits and then compare them to a cable tv pie ad.

      However, once again this gets to my main point of democrats not being unified. The liberal community often seems like it has ADHD and can't help but get distracted by relatively minor issues.

      The GOP is very effective at staying on message and ignoring things much larger than this in order to fulfill their agenda.

  •  Electoral Issues Are All Encompassing (none)
    That's why I love this site. If man-on-dog sex is what twists your pickle, or you think human life begins between the 4-cell and eight-cell state, or wonder at federal judges that hate federalism -- here we have it all.

    A democracy can die of too many lies. - Bill Moyers

    by easong on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 07:22:56 AM PDT

  •  A little suggestion (none)
    This is a site about electoral issues, the netroots, and Iraq. Period.

    Why not change the purpose phrase - "political analysis and other daily rants on the state of the nation" - to reflect that? Or, in some other sticky way, make that explicit. Putting it in a post might be a good way to make that point today, but the post will scroll off in a day or two.

    ... yet even the dogs eat the crumbs from their master's table.

    by Blue the Wild Dog on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 07:25:54 AM PDT

  •  Censorship is censorship (4.00)
    Personally I find the ad rather amusing, though my wife doesn't. It doesn't "do it for me" in a sexual way, I jsut find it amusing because its.. well rather cliche and THAT I find amusing.

    I also have avoided posting on this till now..

    but..

    I don't care of its a Dobsonite telling me I can't read/see/listen to something cause its unchristian, or if its a liberal woman telling me that I can't see/listen/read something because its demeaning to women. Its the same damn thing to me.. censorship.

    And I don't and won't stand for it, from ANYONE. You don't like? fine.. don't watch it. Don't like seeing it on the site? Either 1) Go download firefox, get the addblocker extension, and block the add from ever coming up.

    or
    2) Go elsewhere.

    Look, I really don't consider myself either a feminist or anything else.

    But for what its worth.

    1. I belive that all men and women have the right to control thier bodies in any way they see fit.
    2. I belive that everyone should get paid based on ability and knowledge only.
    3. I belive that something bothers you, then YOU don't need to see it, but you can't and shouldn't make that decision for others.

    Really.. what sex someone is makes about as much diffrence to me in most things as what color eyes they have. The only things it DOES make a diffrence to me are all related to whom I'm sexually attracted to, and go to bed with. That's about it.

    Women want to fight on the front lines? Sure no problem. Women want to work in the workplace in whatever job they are qualified for? Sure no problem. Women want to control thier own bodies without someone else telling them what to do? Sure no problem.

    Women want to tell me I can't see "X" cause its demeaning to women? Big problem.

    One Southern Blue Dog Democrat from the Sunshine State.

    by 1floridademocrat on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 07:26:22 AM PDT

  •  I would suggest (2.00)
    When you know your stuff and stay your focus, you're  spot on.

    You should shut the hell up about things you don't get, Kos, or else I'll watch you screw up our 06 chances, and then you'll blame the intellectuals again, right?

  •  Hmmm... (4.00)
    I think this is my first post, but I've been a loyal reader since... well, at least since before the Iraq "war".

    Anyhow, for whatever it's worth, I am a woman.  I also happen to be a webmaster of a different-subject site that's been around for about 5 years. This crap happens all the time.  You spend much sweat and many hours trying to make something you're proud of, and then people come, and it gets popular, so you are proud, and then they inevitably start complaining.  I've been through the ringer several times over the years over various insignificant things, and have even had mass-exoduses (exodi?) on occasion.  But the site survives.  

    My point?  This is Kos' site.  You all feel like you're an integral part of it because you post and live here, and that's valid. I even feel like I'm part of it for reading so long.  But you do not "own" the site.  When it comes down to basic decisions of funding, they are Kos' to make, whether or not you agree.  And it is true that if you don't agree or are deeply offended, there are other places to go.  That is not mean spirited or dismissive, just a simple reality.  i.e. Why, in the world of thousands upon thousands of blogs, are you demanding this one change instead of finding one you agree with?

    As a regular but casual reader, I didn't notice this pie fight ad until it was a controversy, because by the time I scroll that far my eyes are on the other side of the page reading the new diary headlines.  So all of you who are so offended by it pulled the typically-wingnut blunder of drawing more attention to it.  I probably wouldn't have chosen that ad for my site, and if I wanted to be offended about something I'd probably pick Paris Hilton is right above it (she just irks me), but whatever, it's Kos' site to run.

    The point is, this site is a community, and everyone who posts here day after day make valuable contributions to the community, but it still doesn't make it your site.  You have figurative ownership, but not literal ownership. Internet communities are fluid, people come and go everyday, and life goes on.  

    I find it interesting that those against the ad say that it doesn't represent what the site is about, when their complaints have made the ad the center of conversation here, and, for the moment, actually what this site is about.  

    I think this site probably has many, many thousands of people who read diligently but never post, and many of the masses are educated and even swayed to the Dem side by the discussion here.  Long-winded, much-commented posts about pie fights and what you don't like about the site isn't doing much to further that cause.  The same people who spend their time telling Kos what he "must" talk about are the same spending their time discussing this nonsense.

    In short, all of the energy spent in this thread could be far better spent on things that will have an actual impact on a country that desperately needs it.  Please get back to doing what you all do best.

  •  I ignored... (4.00)
    I ignored the ad, wasn't even aware of it until the uproar.  I accept the guidelines that Kos has just laid out for his thoughts on the purpose of this site.  

    I am a female and certainly believe in most of the woman's issues.  If I want more discussion of those issues I'll find it somewhere on the net, I'm sure.  

    I love this site.  I come her often during the day.  I choose the diary's that I want to read and ignore the rest.  I read mostly economic diary's, including the comments and often do comment myself.  

    I'm glad that Kos is here.  I will support Markos, even though I may occasionally disagree with him.  

    Progressives have huge issues with the way this country is going and the Bush cartel.  We need to focus our energies in trying to do something about those issues.  

    In order to have any chance of succss we must pick and choose the battles.  

  •  I have to admit that I didn't read (none)
    all of the comments posted to this ad, But, Kos, I really think you are missing the point. It is not a matter of whether you support or don't support any individual issue. But posting things that are offensive (and not even your diary!!) to some and then not caring about it, undermines a lot of trust and goodwill. If you don't care about (or care relatively less about) women's issues that's fine. Others can certainly post their views here...and have...on those issues.  But you are not talking about a diary or comment...where different viewpoints that can be aired.

    We are talking about an advertisement that is offensive to some. This, to many, is a sign of blatant disregard for these issues. Someone on Booman published a quote from Carmichel of the Black Panthers..."the only position for women in this organization is prone."

    The comments that I have seen, and your lack of concern about them, smack to me of the Civil Rights movement in many ways. "Now now girls, you'll have your turn, it's time for us first".  But, remember what happened then? Each movement became a single issue movement to the point where no one organization had any power to change anything.

    I for one will stick around for a while. I was gone for two weeks and missed most of the brou-ha-ha. But I do understand these concerns (and have seen the ad...still prominently displayed) and think you need to consider seriously what people are talking about.  I believe (but I may be wrong) that these are some of the same concerns that led Kid Oakland to migrate. While spreading these things out is ultimately not a bad thing, it does dilute the strength that any one has.

  •  Thanks for the Web log Kos (4.00)
    I've seen it many times on the internet.
    Someone works hard to make a site that people use.
    Eventually people forget that there's someone's' hard work in there and start complaining.
    (i.e. "Why haven't you posted the walkthrough for this Computer game?" "The set list for that concert is wrong!")

    So, thank you.

    Also thanks for providing us all the opportunity to disagree with you. (insert snark here)

    1984: Orwell wrote a cautionary tale. George Bush mistook it for a manifesto.

    by mungley on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 11:29:58 AM PDT

  •  Can we stop with the circular firing squad now? (none)
    And get back to bashing Republicans?

    Seriously.

    Now, this does bring up one thing about pornography (or things like it).  Some people here on the left think like people on right and hate it (although for slightly different reasons-lefties think it demeans women, righties think it's immoral because sex is bad).  Personally, I agree with Kos's take on this-but then again, I am a "Liberaltarian", and do not think that there is a big deal here.  But then again, I am also male, so like in abortion, some people don't think I am allowed to have an opinion on this subject.

    •  agreed (none)
      Pornography - pretty much standard in every european country. Is pie fighting controversial in the US now? This sound pretty unprogressive to me.

      I am strongly Pro-choice but I am also strongly pro-pornography, legalization of pot, etc. Dems and repubs are both hypocrits on pretty much every issue. Given the response on this board I think this is clearly the case with dems.

      Many lefties (and I'm proudly left) want to say "oh, you can have freedom of speech but only if it doesn't offend people". That seems pretty fascist to me. Kos has a view on the ad, he stated it, and placed it on the site. He has every right to do that and you have every right to say whatever you want about that decision but just because something offends you doesn't mean it's wrong or can't be ignored. Freedom doesn't mean, free unless politically incorrect. My favorite liberal is Bill Marr and he hangs out at the playboy mansion. I don't view women as shallow or as objects but I can appreciate something on TV or other means without losing that respect. I don't think Arnold Scwartzenegger is actually a robot because he was in terminator. It also doesn't lead me to some deeper conclusion that austrians are robots (or is he from poland).

  •  STOP IT! (none)
    Jaysus Fucking Christ on a Krispy Kreme.

    What the holy hell is the matter here?

    Do you realize that FBI surveillance is being overtly directed at domestic "liberal" interest groups, as opposed to oh, let's say people who might do harm to the nation, like for example Aryan Nation, KKK, and various and sundry right wing fascist, violent groups?

    This little community at dKos that is disintegrating before our eyes needs to get focused on some really serious shit that is coming down.

    Continuing to hurl invective, to parse statements, to purge and drive people out, to refuse to admit complicity and culpability, and to continue to act like a bunch of jr high schoolers in the face of what is really going on is nothing but useless, puerile diversion and denial.

    For shame.

    --felix

    •  Thanks Everyone! (none)
      I agree this needs to end so I'm not posting anymore on this thread. However, I don't think it needs to end for the reasons you pointed out.

      I actually think this discussion has been pretty productive.

      --there were some interesting discussion on advertising and especially the very interesting alert on the Murdochwatch ad.

      --there were several gender issues discussions, which is always a good thing.

      --there was some important discussion about the role of publisher vs. advertiser and then the context the reader and blog contributer has to that community.

      --most importantly everyone demonstrated that they care about this blog and the community by posting.

      I'm new to this board and joined in part because of the fact that everyone here cares about the discussions.
      So I disagree that this has been unproductive but I agree that we should move some of these interesting side topics onto a more dedicated thread. Espcially the stuff about the murdochwatch ad.

      Thanks everyone!!

  •  Wow. (none)
    One hell of an example of "damned if you do, damned if you don't"...
  •  Kos (none)
    I hear what you're saying, but could I humbly implore you to read this? Or these?
  •  RE: Hubris? (none)
    "I am not the end-all, be-all of liberal blogging. I cannot be everything to everyone."

    That is for sure.  But in the above statement are you projecting what you think people think about your site, or do you really believe thousands of your readers believe that you are the end all be all of liberal blogging?

    ... now watch this drive.

    by jg on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 04:17:28 PM PDT

  •  Dear Kos (none)
    electoral issues: CHECK,
    the netroots: CHECK, and
    Iraq: CHECK

    Thank you, Kos, it all checks out.

    Everything to everyone?  Can't be. Shouldn't want to try.  

    Controversy:  CHECK

    From there should come informed discussion.  Not neccesarily consensus.  Democracy, it seems to me, should allow and encourage differing opinions, points of view, etc.  Say it with a vote, or a letter to the editor.  Say it with a diary, and take the heat.  Or not.

    I wasted diaries on personal stuff.  Humor.  Now I have to agree with those who said, "Save the Bandwidth, Delete the Diary."  

    Bit by bit I'm moving my spacewasters off into the web yonder.  I put the comments on a word file and that's that.

    Who controls the media, controls the fates.

    by Apian on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 06:13:34 PM PDT

  •  don't forget. (none)
    If the advertisers don't like something.  That's too bad!
  •  In Summary (none)
    One and only comment on this mess....let's all open our eyes, take stock, take personal responsibility, and act.  

    But first a quick recap....

    You're offended?  Fine.  You want to leave?  Fine.
    DK isn't living up to your expectations?  Fine.  You're disappointed? Fine. You've stated your case? Fine.

    You offended others? Fine.  You don't care if people leave? Fine.  You don't feel the same  responsibility some think you should?  Fine.  You've stated your case? Fine.

    So now everyone knows exactly where they stand.  

    That stated, can we all make our own appropriate decisions regarding said information and PLEASE JUST GET THE FUCK ON WITH IT?  IS THERE ANYTHING LEFT TO SAY?

    Thank you and good night.

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