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Yeah, you, the new guy. Or girl.  And you, the lurker, with the low user ID number who just started posting.  And you too, old timer.  Gather round, I have something to say.

OK, this will hurt.  But I do it cause I love you.  Well, in an internet-stranger-message-board sort of way.  Think of this as an intervention if you will.


Phew.  That needed to be said.  Now let me explain.

I've tackled the "recommending" problem before. But now, geez, time for more meta.

I come here to read brilliant diaries by brilliant people.  And yeah, newbies, lurkers, and old timers, that includes all of you. Just because you new doesn't mean you can't blow us away with an amazing diary.  

What I DON'T come here to read is someone's personal blog, or a diary consisting of just a link or excerpted article.

So, let's run through some community standards.  A lesson for the new folks, a refresher for all others.

This is quite possibly the rudest thing in diary writing.  When a Kossack clicks on your diary, and all you give them is a LINK, that's just wrong.  And taking TEN seconds to post a link and a blurb pushes a diary someone worked on for HOURS further down the recent diary list into oblivion.  

So, unless it's breaking news (REAL breaking news), a diary should NEVER EVER EVER consist of just a link and a blurb.  Seriously, that is one of the laziest things I've ever seen.  Take your mouse, shift it to the left, click on "OPEN THREAD" and post the link there.  

OK. I was wrong.  THIS is the rudest thing. You know why? Because not only do you offer absolutely NOTHING of your own to the community (see above), but you're also violating copyright law if you post too much to make your diary seem longer!

Here's a secret.  We're a savvy bunch here.  We all read the same sites: CNN, MSNBC, Washington Post, NYTimes, etc.  DKOS IS NOT A NEWS AGGREGATOR.  There are far too many diaries filled with breathtaking analysis that are getting flooded out by a dozen "breaking!" diaries.  

It's in the rules, folks.  So if you sign on to dkos, and in your excitement you want to post a "breaking" diary link or an article or whatever, CHECK THE RECENT DIARY LIST.  Hell, check the Recommended diary list.  It's pathetic that there is a diary at the top of the recommended list and someone (multiple someones) post new diaries on it, with just the link to the story or something.    

Proper ettiquite here is if you realize your diary is a repeat, and your diary doesn't add jack to the discussion, you immediately delete it.  

So, in conclusion, PLEASE everyone, start being a little more consientious about what you post here.  This isn't DU, where you can post three sentences and turn it into a thread.  This isn't your personal blog, where you can just throw a link up like you're bookmarking it for later use.  This isn't freeperville, where post after post lacks any content or real thought.

We have standards here (though you couldn't tell it from the last months or so).  Let's start adhering to them, before DailyKos really jumps the shark.

Originally posted to Georgia Logothetis on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 05:21 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Ironically (4.00)
    your diary was just pushed down the list by one that was - yes, wait for it - a linka and a blurb.
  •  Hmmm, and may I add (4.00)
    If you repeat, please delete.

    This is something that bugs me no end, to have the community tell the diarist that theirs is a repeat, it's on the recommended list, or it's on the front page, but some sort of neurotic point of pride that I cannot fathom prevents them from obliges us by deleting their repeat diary.

    "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine

    by Cathy on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 05:56:07 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  And what about the repeats (4.00)
      that seem to make their way onto the RD list when dozens of people post comments saying they're repeats? Chiz.

      Praise be to Georgia for saying this, I've had the urge to do just such a diary for about a month. We're just being blanketed with junk diaries here.

      A diary is about analysis or commentary, communicating something useful to other people that they would not otherwise know.

      DSM Watch - Day 62: When will Bush and Cheney finally read the documents?

      by smintheus on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 06:43:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What about when the repeat (4.00)
        is by one of the "popular" bloggers?

        I have seen several times where a diary, just as good, swooshed down the list, only to find one of the more common bloggers show up with the same diary later and make the recommend list.

        It should work both ways.

        If Gore is elected in 2008, will that count as his second term?

        by chuckles1 on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 12:11:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes of course (none)
          all repeats should be deleted, unless they add considerably to what was already said.

          DSM Watch - Day 62: When will Bush and Cheney finally read the documents?

          by smintheus on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 01:53:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It probably has to do with subscribing . . . (none)
          . . . to the "popular" diarists.

          If someone only has a limited amount of time to scan and read diaries (and that's probably most of us) then they might scan the front page and then the diarists to which they've subscribed, completely bypassing the list of new diaries. Then they might see something they like and recommend it.

          It kind of sucks if you're not one of them, but that's the way it is.

          That said, if they didn't do their homework and diaried without checking for other diaries on the same topic, well, shame on them.

          "We must love one another or die." - W. H. Auden

          by marathon on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 08:27:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks, G10 - a suggestion on ads: (4.00)
    If they're really bugging you (I have widescreen formatand they were actually obliterating my righthand diary column), it might be time to throw in the towel and pay $4 a month to get rid of them. I finally did it and breathed a huge sigh of relief.

    I'm glad I'm not George W. Bush, because George W. Bush is going to hell

    by Alna Dem on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 06:30:49 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Send KOS some love anyway (4.00)
      Keep online communities healthy and functioning -- it's the equivalent of maintaining the roads and waterworks in your community offline.

      I rechanneled $$$ from cancelled TV & media subscriptions that were pissing me off to blogs and media watchdogs who were doing the job that functioning government and media SHOULD have been doing but weren't (and in many cases still aren't).

      Don't get guilted out if you're strapped for cash, but otherwise, give up a couple of movies or forgo takeout a couple of times to keep your favorite blogs alive.

    •  just did that -- (none)
      by way of paypal and the difference is outstanding -- a very well spent $4.
  •  Thanks Georgia! (4.00)
    I kinda felt like there was a whole lot of noise here lately.  I thought maybe it was just me.  On the plus side, it's nice to see this site becomming so active!

    Politics: It's all fun and games until somone dies.

    by advisorjim on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 07:37:46 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Not just you. (3.75)
      I was thinking same thing.  Lost my acquired TU status because, even though I was checking the site daily (or several times a day) I was finding little that I felt compelled to add my 2 cents to.  There seems to be an awful lot of noise but not as much spark to a lot of diaries.  Or is it the other way around?
    •  Problems with current diary system? (4.00)
      My comments here may be derrived from a lack of knowledge on my part as I'm quite new here.  But if I'm wrong, perhaps the interface isn't as intuitive as it could be.  Anyhow...

      The way the diary system currently works encourages a lot of noise and drowns out more quality diaries.  Here's the thing, if I post a new diary, it's off the "latest" list pretty quickly.  So most of the time, a diary, no matter how well thought out, is going to get flushed into obscurity pretty quickly.  

      What I'd like is a way for diaries to more gradually bubble up.  That is, if a new diary gets posted and it gets a couple recommendations, it gets pushed to the top of the latest diaries list again.  Thus more people will tend to see already recommended diaries.  

      The other possibility might be a way to easily see recently recommended diaries.  That is, diaries that were posted within the last few hours, that have a few recommendations.  This would make it easier to find middle of the road content, and would facilitate the promotion of the diamonds showing up in the rough.  

      Just some thoughts.  I don't have to write code for it, so easy enough for me to say, but it would be useful I think

      •  A 4 for a suggestion that can be codified! (none)
        For an off-the-cuff suggestion, might a list of diaries sorted by (number-of-recommendations / age-of-diary) give results more like what you want to see?

        Bubble-up along the lines you suggest -- when a diary is recommended move it to the top of the recent diaries (or maybe half-way to the top) -- seems good, too, and this rule wouldn't add another diary-list. If so, however, a diary should be removed from "Recent" when promoted to "Recommended" (and maybe vice-versa).

        Stem-cell graphical snark for your use:

        by technopolitical on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 02:01:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  And one more thing (none)
    If a diary gets "front paged," maybe it can be taken out of the recommended section to make room for the "11th" most recommended diary?

    "Every job is a self portrait of the person who did it. Autograph your work with excellence." - Unknown

    by marchmoon on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 04:40:03 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  sterno (none)
    Are you familiar with the summaries of diaries that I publish daily and weekly?  If not, please click on my name and take a look at some of the recent ones.

    Because I'm making the sites without benefit of the Daily Kos database, I can only make a list once a day at most, but if something like this were moved on site, it could perhaps be made available either on demand, or else updated on a more frequent basis, say hourly.

    Would that work for you?

  •  No apology necessary for this newbie! (4.00)
    I totally understand your point, G10, as well as most of those commenting.  There have to be groundrules...especially when there is so much info to consume.  

    Personally, the thought of writing a diary scares the shit out of me -- hell, I preview my comments 3x before posting and then sometimes just scrap em altogether.  :)  

    I'm still learning the whole blogging deal and anyone that says, you just get on the computer and write, is sadly mistaken.  I'm amazed at the content and thought that I see on this site everyday and wish I had gotten here a year ago because this site rocks!

    Your insight/thoughts are always appreciated by this newbie.  Thank you.  

  •  Why don't you turn the ads off? (none)
    Just wondering?
  •  crap... (1.83)
    is what this diary is...2 of your last 4 or 5 diaries are links or excerpts from WTF!!! who are you to judge?

    ..we are here to influence public opinion for the most part and nobody will be able to police that, not you, not any of the other regular recommended folks...

    ...this is fucking ridiculous, like a protective measure for those who make the rec list, i apologize for all those not in your exclusive club for not being as concise and well-learned as you.. the meantime, you are no longer allowed to comment on articles or have any links to news sites ok?  practice what you preach...

    (all that said, i have really appreciated some of your diaries, but please, go back to bed and try starting your day again)

    "Destroy this temple" - Jesus per The Gospel of John

    by The Gnostic on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 08:34:31 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  A Hotlist is Forever (4.00)
    .. if you want it to be.

    Georgia10, I am subscribed to your diaries and so do not miss a beat.  As are many, I'm sure.

    But I cannot be here 24/7 (or even 8/5).  When I log in:

    1. I look at the recent 50 in search of topics of interest (and writers that are new to me).  One or two I will bookmark for a quiet read later.

    2. I check the recommended list.

    3. I view my Hotlist to keep up with my subscribed authors and bookmarks.

    I agree with all of your criticism, except I welcome a good repeat twice a day or so in order to have a better chance of catching a topic during my hour or so onlist.

    After a current diary has gone over 70 comments or so, I am hesitant to read deeper than the first 12 or so, and reluctant to add anything, but will still read the diary in any case.

    No one need be upset by the fact that their diary slips off the recent 50.  If you continue to produce good writing, we will find you eventually, with all your saved diaries.

    But doesn't everyone have a couple dozen diarists on subscription?  Never fear, then.

    On the other hand, how many highly visible diaries consist of gigantic comment threads full of troll-feeds, and single-issue hotbutton exchanges, and general open thread garbage?  Too many.

    Be all that you can be: Work for peace - - Jesus (Mt.5:9)

    by Upstream Review on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 10:08:03 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  I have to jump in on this (4.00)
    Please stop bitching about the folks who get recommended regularly.  This is a diary that we see every few months, when Kos gets out of hand.  G10's right, this place has been borderline useless lately because of all the shit diaries.  We have a few folks who post this diary from time to time to remind us we have some standards.  

    Just grow up.  We have an entire community here, not just a few special creatures who must be coddled and protected.  Armando is about the most exclusive person here, and he takes beatings for being a dipshit every day - but his writing and analysis are better than most people's, so he stays up top and grows a thick skin.  That's what self-policing is all about - that and occasional reminders of the standards that we can all pretty easily follow.  

  •  tips? (2.92)
    The tone of this diary is borderline for me. While I can sympathize with the intent, I think its almost out of line... but not quite.

    FYI, calling people "newbies" isn't a good way of ingratiating yourself with the people you're hoping to reach. You also haven't given any evidence that they're the problem, or even that the problem is indeed real. (Though presumably they are...)

    However, posting the first reply to this diary in hopes of getting some tips is, in my humble opinion, unabashadly lame.

  •  damn (none)
    it's not worth being rated down over.

    (shakes head) Some people.

    have a 4 for articulation.

    If hating Republicans is wrong, I don't want to be right

    by bionicKitty on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 09:04:04 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  Your burning eyes? (none)
    I don't know whats up with this but when I open Dkos in Ie It has the adds in the middle. But if then I double click the DKos image at the top it reopens with no adds???? Wouldn't work in firefox so I've been using the ie. I'm not sure what's has done it, maybe it's a secret and I hope I didn't just ruin it.

    It's out "There" just OPEN your eyes.

    by Clzwld on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 09:34:49 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  Solution for the ads (none)
    Use Firefox as your browser, install the NoScript extension, don't allow javascripts on DailyKos, and bye bye stupid-assed ads.  Have a nice day.

    Check out the Coingate Money-Laundering Scandal timeline - updated daily.

    by The Ticked Off Ohioan on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 12:59:39 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

  •  I got criticized (none)
    for not linking to my source doc in my diary. My diary was a hastily written extended response to a front page thread on an angle not being covered on that particular thread.

    I considered it a rant on something that was already prominantly featured elsewhere on the site.  But folks like stand-alone diaries.

    I've done the link-blurb thing, but usually it is to elicit responses and comments.  I try to provide multiple links and tie them together with some analysis.

    But some folks do the link-blurb thing just to get a dialogue started.  I can't fault folks for doing that on a hot story.  Sometimes I want to post on a topic and I hunt down for an open diary to post to.

  •  On the Bright Side (4.00)
    It's really much easier to comment on these one-link diaries than on one that took an hour or two to write. :)

    "Hillary Clinton fathered a half-black child with a prostitute in Mississippi. I'll stake my reputation on it." -- Ken Mehlman, RNC Chairman

    by bink on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 05:31:45 AM PDT

  •  who is this georgia10? (4.00)
    Actually, one of the most respected contributors at the site. Did a tremendous job organizing the Ohio irregularity claims into a readable white paper, sent along to John Conyers and others.

    YOu may not know her (or me), but what she says is so.

    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

    by Greg Dworkin on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 05:32:35 AM PDT

  •  Georgia10, in the diaries with the cluestick (4.00)
    Georgia10, thanks for the timely reminder.

    DKos: Adding Jack to the discussion.

  •  From a 3 digit User ID (4.00)
    I think this comes in waves.  

    When dKos switched to scoop this was an issue (but it was such a novel twist on a poliblog that hadn't been done before).  There were so many Deaniac posts that said similar things (don't get me wrong, I think he's a fantastic man).

    When dKos really started taking off during/after primaries it was similar.  Primaries sounded like a high school popularity contest and similar diaries and postings got put up.

    On Black Wednesday - it was the same - the number of "fuck this country" diaries seemed quite repetitive

    So we are seeing another run of newbies.  But like panning for gold, there's going to be a bit of shaking around, and settling of dreck.  But with patience we'll uncover some absolute beautful gems (to mix metaphors)

    So for those who have been around a while, it's the figurative "spring cleaning" again.  No sense getting full of dispair, but we'll get through this inconvenience.

    "now this is not the end, it is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." W. Churchill

    by Thor Heyerdahl on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 05:47:11 AM PDT

  •  Amen (4.00)
    I'm recommending because this needs to be heard.  I've tried to break through a few times myself (mostly writing about what I term the "signal-noise ratio" problem) but don't have the name recognition nor gripping writing style to find myself on the recommended list.

    I would add that, aside from having more quality in the diaries, people need to put more thought into what they recommend (as was pointed out in the controversial discussions awhile ago about the sensationalistic and non-factchecked manner of many recommended diaries - as I joked to a friend, it seems a convincingly written "Octopus sponsored by Republicans eats 5 Democrats!" diary could get recommended around here), and even into the comments.  This whole community is becoming harder and harder to distill, and we all need to act if we want to fix it.

    At least, that's my apparently elitist (as I've been told when I've posed such arguments before) stance.

  •  a clarification might be needed (4.00)
    George rightly warn against both of the following
    • just posting a link
    • posting a complete article

    What should be made clear is that it is absolutely appropriate to identify something worth reading, if
    • you provide the link
    • you provide extracts of relevant material
    • you provide some commentary of your own

    some of the most rewarding diaries here have been of such a format, that people are willing to scour the electronic universe for relevant items that the rest of us might not see

    This can include items from major papers -- after all, not everyone has the time to read the Washington Post and NY Times, and there may be something there worth bringing to people's attention

    I would note, as one who does provide this kind of information, that to decide what to extract and to provide commentary (and sometimes crosslinks as well) can be quite time-consuming.   The diary I did yesterday on the op ed by James Carroll was less time-consuming than normal  -- it only took about 30 minutes to put together.

    Those newly posting should be welcomed -- they may be, as Georgia rightly notges, absolutely brilliant in what they post.  But they also should attempt to abide by community standards.

    I would add one additional note -   the use of the work "BREAKING" is rarely justified

    Those who can, do. Those who can do more, TEACH!

    by teacherken on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 05:56:05 AM PDT

  •  I'd like to add... (4.00)
    ... satirical diaries are not diaries, nor are satirical posts. Nobody comes here for satire and snark. We come here to be informed and to admire Armando's intellect. That's all.

    Good day.


  •  speak for yourself (1.90)
    speak for yourself, Who the hell are you to speak for the whole Kos community?  Sometimes just a quick blurb and a link is quite enough IMHO. If the link is relevant its relevant, why do we always need people to through in their two cents?

     This community to me, and I am sure to many others is a clearinghouse of information.  

     So personally, I say get over yourself and lay off the caffeine.  The world doesn't revolve around you and your little rules.

  •  conscientious (n/t) (4.00)
  •  some of the newbies (4.00)
    are rpug trolls who are screwing with the site on purpose.

    I had hoped that the redesign would allow something like a "hide this diary" button for TUs, allowing the equivalent of zero rating for an entire diary of the type described here.

    Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

    by TrueBlueMajority on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 06:43:34 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for the reminders (4.00)
    And there is nothing wrong with your tone.  Imagine if it had been MaryScott writing this.

    I don't do a lot of diaries, but I do try to read most of them.

    However, it is a case of catch as catch can whiel at work, so it is unfortuante when a good diary may be missed because it was pushed down the thread by several that fall into the categories you mention.

    And I don't think you were attacking just the newbies, because I have seen several old names fall into this realm.

    On the day O'Connor resigned, I made a comment in MaryScott's diary that if an event is super big, most posters should realize that there will be a front page column on it in a little while, and wait for that.

    OTOH, there may be some news flashes that come under the radar, so to speak, and can merit a quick diary, as long as there is some commentary involved.

    This is a site where we have to police ourselves to keep it informative, up to date and overall a place where we can come and share ideas, as well as vent when necessary.

    There is no perfect solution.

    Bush, so incompetent, he can't even do the wrong things right.

    by JAPA21 on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 07:06:57 AM PDT

  •  this is a organic site, that is its beauty (none)
    this is democracy at its best. sometimes the "key " comes from the "mouth of babes". all are welcome the sand & the gems, just have restraint. peace.
  •  Question from a noob (3.90)
    Okay, so say I come across an incredible blog entry somewhere out there on the internets... Something that has not been diaried, and that I feel others here at Dkos would like to see. Theres not much for me to add except a paragraph or two of an introduction, and a big screaming I hate Bush at the end.. Is that an acceptable diary by your standards? Or does that fall under your "An article is not a diary" catagory?

    Not trying to be a brat here, just an honest question.

  •  Remedy for Exploding Diarrhya: HOT TOPICS (4.00)
    If the software permits, KOS should have a hot topics area to corral the numerous stories that are bound to spawn a lot of short diaries and 'breaking' stuff. This also makes it easier to research certain topics, track back to a story and add to commentary there.

    People should also use open threads more.

  •  Hmmmm- Thumb under chin, index finger on chin. (4.00)
    I have read so many of these "diaries" recently.  If I recall correctly, all of this information is in the FAQ.  That information is easily accessed at the top of the page on the right hand side.  

    If I were a snotty bastard, I would point out that it would probably be easier for someone to click on that link.  Currently, this diary is pushing relevant political diaries off the recommend list.  

    Repeat diaries.  How many times does it take for a point to hit home?  How many times does a brain need to engage new information before the information sinks in?  

    Georgia10 points out the number of hours he/she has dedicated to this site.  That's great.  However, not everyone has that sort of time to invest in looking at a computer screen.  So, when a diary is repeated, I'd venture a guess that for most posters, as long as it's not on the day of some breaking news, that diary topic is new.  I won't even mention that some diaries don't stand up on their own, and a different diary on the same topic might address the issue in a better way.  

    We all read the same sites.

    I don't think we can assume anything.  I don't read any of those sites, I don't watch television news.  I read the local daily, I read Dkos, and I have a couple other sources.  

    Links and Blurbs.

    The truth is still this- news isn't real until it's covered in the media.  So, I read in every damn diary where someone has posted too much of an article- "You know you should watch out how much you post..." Now, it's apparently not okay to post too little of an article with a link to the article.  
    Frankly, this reminds me of the switch to CD format for music.  Just because a band has more space on a CD, it doesn't mean they have to write 5 more songs. But, they do!  And they almost all suck.  

    I'm a very respectful poster here.  I'm sorry if this post bothers anybody, but it sounds like my boss when she calls me at home.

  •  No, this site is set up wrong (4.00)
    I've used other scoop sites where things work differently, and I think adopting one of those models would be more beneficial to dailykos.

    First, we need to let every user have the ability to write stories that can be posted on the front page.  The whole "only Kos and his buddies" thing detracts from the site, even if it is his site.  You can't have a community site when you have a few dictators that don't let anyone else have much of a voice.

    It should work by reccomended stories being posted to the front page, albeit with a higher threshold than the normal amount of reccomendations to make it to the reccomended diaries list.  In addition to this, it may be a good idea to let people provide a means to vote against the diary up to the point where it makes it to the front page.  That way if someone writes crap and has his friends vote it up, the rest of the site can vote it down before it's too late.  At that point the diary can truly be what it is meant to be, instead of forcing everyone other than Kos and his friends to fight over leftover scraps of this site.

  •  The trouble with quibbles... (3.83)
    I think you are partially wrong.  This is a news site in a way and I like when people share news they have found.  I think that even a diary that is barebones can be useful if it brings up a previously unseen item and opens it up to community discussion.  And if I had much money I'd be willing to bet a big chunk of it that a huge portion of us don't go wading through those open threads unless we're wanting to have an intelligent conversation with someone.  I agree that the official community practice is to post news items in an open thread.  I'm just not sure that works quite the way it was intended.

    And just so I don't quibble and run, I want to offer a suggestion that would give another alternative to the open-thread/new-diary choice.  We need a separate link where people post just news.  Have that link open to a whole 'nother page where news links can be shared and/or discussed.  That way all those diaries that took hours to write wouldn't get pushed down the page by 12 diaries about one news item and 17 about another.  I cry as much as anyone when one of my "wonderful labor intensive" diaries slides quickly into oblivion, but I think the news items have a place and I don't usually have the energy to go wading through a long open thread ferreting them out.

    I also would encourage others to do what I do, which is set the diary display at some number higher than 10.  Some people say they don't have time to sort through a lot of diaries, but it doesn't really take that long for me to scan the 50 most recent diary titles that I have automatically displayed.  

    Scoop is an ingenius design that makes for unprecedented online community interaction.  With the community interaction that software has made possible there is a godawful amount of input and I think there need to be more tweaks of the site design here to organize all the info into a few categories.  Otherwise it's like pitching all your bills and statements into a shoebox or a drawer and then sorting them out again when you're looking for something.  This is Markos's baby and he can do whatever he wants whenever he wants.  And there are rules that need to be in place.  And, I should have said this back when he was asking for suggestions.  Maybe I did.  If not, better late than never I hope.

    And here is a link to a poll diary trying to figure out how different people use the site.  Participation wasn't very good, but maybe it gives food for thought anyway.

    The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

    by mikepridmore on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 07:37:29 AM PDT

  •  Newbie with a (somewhat hesitant) suggestion (4.00)
    First, I appreciate the guidance. I'm new here and still haven't had a chance to read all (I have read most of it) the background FAQs, dkosopedia, etc., so your pointers probably saved me from some future faux pas.

    But a thought occured to me. Pehaps another category for the front page would help. I realize the front page is already fairly cluttered, but maybe a section for recommended newslinks would ease the problem of bumping down well researched diaries.

    My guess is that the open thread is probably supposed to fill this function but that doesn't seem to be the case. So perhaps a one click link off the front page to something like "dkos news" where posters can post news links with just a one liner headline with a link would give people a concise way to share news info. And instead of a comment thread, just have a recommmend (or rate) system to float or bump down the news links.

    I know you say dkos is not a news aggregator, but I myself do come here partly for the pool of news the whole community has gathered. And since dkos is a growing community (with the accompanying growing pains) perhaps a new "department" would reduce diary clutter and provide a better way to share news info without a lot of repetition.

    Anyway, thanks again for trying to keep dkos functioning well, free thinking minds tend to be rather unruly things to keep organized.

  •  Excellent diary! (none)
    I hope it has an impact.  You see, I read DU just for the late breaking news (links and sometimes a little blurb comment). I read that first when I get home to get an overview of what the evil doers have been up to while I have been slaving away at a dead end job.

    THEN, I come to kos to get really educated on what's  happening.

    But lately, there has been little analysis going on around here. Or if there has been analysis, it wasn't easy to find.

    I think the standard should be... if someone at DU would post a link to your kos diary with a little blurb, then you have hit paydust.  I have seen that more and more...where kos is being consulted as a primary editorial resource.  But of late, it's the oddest thing... people will see a link and a blurb on DU, and then post the same darn thing here!  With big letters... MUST READ.. GUESS WHAT?... BREAKING.

    And that' taking the cart and the horse in the wrong direction.  It's essentially pollution. Noise pollution that doesn't foster an ounce of original or productive thought.

    LetsFight. re handle: Fight the radical right is the sentiment!

    by letsfight on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 07:48:00 AM PDT

  •  note to dKos techies (4.00)
    I agree with everything georgia10 writes, except for the part about repeated diaries.  Why?  Because the search function of dKos, quite honestly, blows.  I mean, really blows.  If the standards of conduct say "don't post repeated diaries" and somebody goes to the trouble of searching for a diary by the same topic of the one they've just labored over for an hour or so, and fails to find one (did I mention that the search function blows?) one can hardly fault them for posting it.  If you follow the other rules, and really put some work into a diary, a diary on the same topic may be posted while you are working, and still be invisible by means of the search function.

    How many diaries did we have about dKos 3.0? Orange, schmorange.  A search function that works is worth a thousand fancy CSS skins.

  •  It really isn't even about the rules (4.00)
    Gah, some people just hate rules.  I do, too. Stupid ones.  But, rules that make things better for everyone else by forcing us to be thoughtful and considerate of readers and writers here are good ones!  All right, admittedly that's just one person's opinion.

    But, what are the one link diaries about? Are they from people who get some kind of weird buzz by "breaking news" or participating in some way? Are they from people who haven't the slightest interest in being part of a community, but treats the diary list like their personal blog?  

    These are the things that make it "right" for a community to have rules and for the community to speak up when the rules are ignored by egomaniacs, pitiable attention seekers, or something less horrific but just as thoughtless, from people who don't even care about generating comments or advocating a view or even being interesting, all that matters is posting, posting, posting, out of need to fulfill their onesided ache or twitch to participate.

    Diaries get passed over because of this kind of thoughtlessness.  And call us Mommies or Cops, or whatever, but when people spend time linking, and constructing diaries that advocate a view or spend a lot to time informing about issues that get little attention, or a new take on issues that are already getting attention, it seems that all the complaints of "who died and made you boss! or rules schmules" could be seen as just more thoughtlessness, a refusal to be considerate.

    "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine

    by Cathy on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 07:58:21 AM PDT

  •  Gee whiz (1.15)
    I wish I had the time to be a wannabe journalist and post a lengthy diary containing myriad links, quotes and analysis in lovely looking HTML grey-boxes.

    Likewise I wish I had the time to trawl this site just to make sure I'm not annoying you by repeating something somebody else said.

    But I'm too busy working and you're too busy being the sort of elitist, professional web-bore that puts people off contributing to sites like this.

    If you want breathtaking and informative diaries on Kos why don't you get your head out of your arse, stop whining about other people and do one yourself?

    You're coming across like a net-nanny so fly right and make sure you eat your greens.

  •  from kos' keyboard (4.00)
    to your eyeballs:

    from the site FAQ:

    If you want to post a diary, first think about whether your thoughts are a good fit for a diary topic. Diaries are coming in at nearly 200 a day these days, many of them widely judged to not be worth the effort.

    200 diaries a day...and i have no idea how long ago this FAQ was composed.

    Somebody recently opined that you shouldn't put up a diary unless you'd put about an hour's time into writing it. That may be excessive. But you should be prepared to put in a little more time than a few minutes to make a quality diary entry.

    If what you want to post isn't worth that kind of time, consider a comment on an open thread or somebody else's diary on the same or similar topic.

    Second, due to the volume of diaries on the same topic, please look at the list of recently posted diaries, at the Diary Search page, to see if there's one on your topic. Please do not post a diary if your topic was covered within the last twenty diaries.

    while those are more or less guidelines - but still to be respected - Kos has laid out a few rules for diaries:

    3. when you get to the diary page, read the rules! They were all put there for a reason. from the FAQ

    1. No single-line diaries. If you want to bring attention to a single link, or make a one-line pithy comment, head on over to the Open Threads or an appropriate post or diary entry.

    2. No repetitive diaries. If it's been blogged or diaried, there's no need to repeat it. Take a moment to ensure your topic hasn't been blogged. And if you post your same diary entry twice, consider it grounds for banning.  from the post new diary page

  •  kos swears (none)
    and he sets the tone that way.

    He also breaks all of these rules daily, and he sets the tone that way too.

    So good for the goose, good for the gander, is a reasonable response from the hoi polloi.

    Just sayin' is all.

    The dark at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming age.

    by peeder on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 08:29:51 AM PDT

  •  Agree in part -- (4.00)
    I don't feel quite so strongly about the "An article is not a diary" sentiment -- if the article itself is genuinely interested, I appreciate the pointer.  After all, I check DailyKos first in the day before I check other sites.  

    In particular, I post a once-weekly Virginia Election roundup, that consists exclusively of excerpts from and links to news articles from the past week dealing with the upcoming governor's race.  I do this because the race hasn't quite hit the national radar yet, but it's the only competitive statewide elections in 2005 (New Jersey has races as well, but polls show that the races in that state are much more lopsided) -- and I think how the Democrats do in this race will be, to some extent, a belwether of how we're looking going into the 2006 congressional races.

    I'd like to think that the effort I put into those diaries -- even though they're citation with little analysis -- is still valuable.

    He's Mister Truth Twister; He's Mister Hate. He's Mister Coke Sniffer; He's Mister Torture-Is-Great. They call me Shit Miser, whatever I touch...

    by osterizer on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 08:36:07 AM PDT

  •  Diaries (none)
    Do people really come here to read the diaries?  I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being serious.  I definitely do not.  I read the front page and, occasionally, a recommended diary or two.  I've been around a long time.  I thought that was what most people did.  It didn't occur to me until very recently that the diaries, reading or writing, were such a prominent aspect of how other users wanted to use Kos.

    (I'm a little embarrassed to say that until about a month ago I thought the "Diaries" link was to your own diaries, not the total list, and since I never wanted to write one I never clicked on it.  The "scrolling off the list" thing that would flare up once in a while on comments to front-page stories never made much sense to me, because I thought people were talking about the Recommended Diaries!  I didn't know so many people wrote them.)

    Why isn't the effective solution to the "I spent hours on a diary and it got pushed off the list" complaint to start your own blog, where nothing gets scrolled off into oblivion except by virtue of your own ongoing brilliance?

  •  Actually I appreciate (none)
    people pointing me towards interesting articles.  This world is full of publications that I'm either unfamilar with, or simply don't have the time to check out every day.
    If someone spots something interesting, excerpts a few lines of it, and provides a link to it, I'm appreciative.

    News is what powerful people don't want you to hear. Everything else is publicity.-Bill Moyers

    by jazzmaniac on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 08:42:03 AM PDT

  •  Remember Rumsfeld (4.00)
    He said, "Democracy is messy." OK, so he was talking about Iraq and his own failed policies, but he could have been talking about The Daily Kos.

    Two suggestions:
    The "Newbie" post should be thrown into the recommends every month or should have it's own place in the far right column. I know when I joined, I wish I had such a primer, but when you join the site, you get so excited, you just start posting. I know the rules are in the FAQs, but I think something like this post should be put somewhere with more visibility.

    You can't speak to everybody all the time, so it is the job of Trusted Users is to tell people who are violating the rules in the comment sections of their posts. I often do this when people run a complete article instead of excerpts. Then I would encourage them to comment on them if they hadn't already.

    That's why I like this blog. Anybody can post, but anybody can enforce the rules. Remember, we are herding cats here. And also from Rumsfeld. "You fight your political battles with diarists you have and not the diarists you wish you had."

    Having said all that, I love the star diarists here. They always give me something to think about. And I love the activists who build sites around issues such as the Downing Street Minutes.


    Ask Republicans to turn in their yellow ribbons and join the Army. That would really be supporting the troops.

    by makemefree on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 08:43:38 AM PDT

  •  A Tip On No Repetitive Diaries (& More) (4.00)
    As a relative newbie, I set my "Recent Diaries" at 30 (not just 10 or 20) so that I can avoid posting any "breaking" story yet again (or, worse still, another slice of pie diary - though that ultimately generated some good discussion, over and over and over . . .).

    I find that I rarely have time to compose a diary, between real life (husband, father, lawyer), news sources and reading all the excellent posts here, there just isn't time unless some particular issue or news item really gets me going.

    Sometimes I think people here get too ego involved and seem to seek adulation (get to the recommended list!) or kudos from other members.  It's like they expect something in return for sharing and that is sad . . . especially when what is being offered is repetitive, sloppy or lifted entirely from another source.  But really people, none of you needs validation that much and all of you should respect the rest of us to heed the guidelines and Georgia's commentary on them.  Thanks, Ga10, for bringing up the topic.

    When a whole nation is roaring Patriotism at the top of its voice, I am fain to explore the cleanness of its hands and the purity of its heart. - Emerson

    by foolrex on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 08:53:52 AM PDT

  •  Two diaries a week limit (none)
    I'll say it for the jillionth time: the limit should be two diaries a week not two diaries a day. I know that "punishes" the really good diarists, but it's also a necessary limit to keep many of the lesser-known good diarists' work visible long enough for them to get well known.

    Two diaries a week. Everyone can live with it.

  •  As a "newbie" (3.88)
    myself, I'm rather put-off by G10s comments.

    Though I have not committed the sins that she speaks of, and tho she no doubt makes important points, the idea that "newbies" are "SCREWING UP DAILYKOS" is outrageous and insulting.

    Were it not for the "newbies" dkos would be completely irrelevant.  New subscribers join dkos because we find information highlighted here that is either absent from, or obscured in, the MSM.  The sense of political community that dkos has created inspires many of us to make the phone calls and write the letters that, for example, pushed the DSM story into the MSM.  

    Were it not for us "newbies," in fact, the DSM story might never have broken out at all.

    Dkos succeeds because it has caught the attention of thousands of people who are not part of the dkos community. (Isn't that obvious.)  

    If you prefer, however, we can certainly go elsewhere.

  •  Newbies (4.00)
    Before you throw around the mighty force of your 1s against people with low ID number, consider the possibility that you may not understand the dynamic that is occurring in a certain situation.  There are a huge number of deep personal relationships on this sight that have a context.  There are people who are able to recognize a troll when you might think there is some misunderstandings.  

    And ditto on this diary of Georgia10.  I have seen some insipid stuff coming down the pike.  If you aren't up to the quality that we expect, wait till you are before you start writing diaries.

    First things first, but not necessarily in that order.--Doctor Who

    by DCDemocrat on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 09:34:12 AM PDT

  •  I humbly apologize... (1.77)
    If any of my entries have violated the `community' standards as imposed and monitored by Georgia10.  It would break my heart if he/she had one of her exceptionally well crafted and poignant masterpieces pushed off a list of 50 diaries by something I've written which is totally devoid of any merit since it was not pre approved by the `community' monitors headed by georgia10.   However I guess that is the price you have to pay for not being a front-page poster.

    Maybe you could ask KoS to create a diary list that is ranked by what the community thinks is important.  O right we have one of those.  Maybe we need a list of diaries ranked by what Georgia10 thinks of them.

  •  No repetitive diaries ... (4.00)
    This is good in theory. But much harder in practice. You can use the search facility, find nothing, spend 15-30 minutes writing the damned thing, hit "Post" and voila! ... in the time it took you to write it, 4 diaries on the topic have popped up, often with just blurbs and links.

    And you just killed a half hour!

    Frankly the 1st diary or two on a topic is often lamer than a subsequent diary that the diarist actually put some thought into. And you get to this later, but far superior diary and what's the first comment? "Duplicate diary. Please delete." (I'm not even gonna hint at who I'm referring to here!)

    And does tha "no repetitive diaries" rule apply to Armando, or is he exempt?   ;-)

    "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

    by Glinda on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 10:01:19 AM PDT

  •  I love these types of diaries -- (none)
    --as it allows the commentary to rather swiftly devolve into Usenet-circa-1998-style discourse.

    Want to watch the left eat itself? Bring up a procedural issue. Sigh.

    The riddle does not exist. If a question can be put at all, then it can also be answered. -Wittgenstein

    by Stanton on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 10:21:14 AM PDT

  •  Something to say (4.00)
    This is going to be late to the party, but I thought I would add a couple of cents worth...

    On popularity contests:  Folks, without a single exception that I can think of, the most popular diarists here have earned it.  They have become popular because of consistent quality of thought and expression, not just because of knowing 1,001 different ways to say `fuck'.  Our diarist here is a perfect example of building a following through great work and persistence.  Sure, some may now benefit from the Steven King effect (he once agreed he could publish his grocery list and it would become a best seller), but this would only work for a while before we all moved on.  If you're jealous of their success, think about the endless hours they have spent earning their reputations and ask `Could I do this?'.  I've written three diaries, this stuff is hard work.  Even this small blurb is on its third revision.

    On courteous behavior:  People who suggest this site is `changing regardless of the official rules and we all better accept it' are rude.  Think of it this way.  Markos has opened up his huge house and invited us all over to visit.  He says do what you want, stay as long as you want, no charge unless you feel like pitching in for some food.  Please just follow a couple of basic rules like don't pee in the pool.  So tons of people show up, it's `the hot spot', and some folks feel entitled to say `I'm gonna pee where I want, I don't give a crap what anyone else says'.  Not cool, not cool at all.

    That is all.  Have a great day!

  •  Fairly new, too (none)
    But I've seen a lot of diaries from seasoned users complaining that some people don't use the diary function correctly.  Maybe the free-posting diary function should be removed so not just any old body can post--but that sucks, it's one reason I read dkos.

    Maybe, instead, diaries can be posted under topic headings:  "Iraq", "Inside the Beltway", "State/local politics", "Free-form", etc.

    Or is that too much?  

    I don't know, but what I do know is that all these bitch-fest diaries are becoming a real turn-off.

    All murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets. ~Voltaire

    by TexH on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 10:39:49 AM PDT

  •  Not really a newbie but ... (none)
    Thank you georgia10, your words were very helpful. I have to admit that most of what you explained as being "rude" I had to learn the hard way when my intend was never to be rude.

    Yeah I know, there are nice links provided that explain the manners we should follow BUT, your diary is both a great basic primer of what not to do and a good explanation/reminder about the rational for these rules.  

  •  halleluia sister (none)
    I've stopped coming here as often because the quality is not what it used to be.  I hope this helps.  Thanks for your thoughtfulness and courage.
  •  btw, good diaries are never repetitive... (none)
    ...even when their topic is.

    "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity" -Yeats

    by jethropalerobber on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 11:22:21 AM PDT

  •  Completely Honest.... (2.50)
    Your number is about 28,000.  In my mind this means you showed up and started posting right before or right after the election when thousands of new people were signing up.  To me that makes you a relative newbie.  You stuck around!  Good for you.  I joined in April 2004.  I am a relative newbie too.  This means I don't write meta-diaries telling people how to run the site.

    Furthermore, you staked your claim on a particular side of a very heated issue on DKos after the election and made it the RD list regularly.  After that you had a regular cult following and your diaries usually gained that status whether they deserved it or not IMO.  They are often just a portion of another article with a couple of sentences telling us how we should interpret it.  This is not always the case, as many have been very in depth and informative and were well justified in being on the RD list.

    Furthermore, you immediately began pimping your own blog as well as your own diaries in almost every front page article shortly after you arrived.  This is fine I guess.  The best sales people often survive in a culture like America.  I am not sure how popular your blog has become, and I wish you luck, but IMO you have the ability to herd the cats at your blog.  DKos is doing fine and if you don't like it contact Markos.  

    Finally, tt seems to me that many of your diaries in the last few weeks have not made the RD list.  Perhaps this is merely a case of sour grapes on your part.  Perhaps not, but we all seek recognition in some form or another.  

    The reasons that make DKos fantastic are also the reasons it sucks:  the fact that Markos pretty much gives free reign to the community members.  Even to call him a totally asshole if we feel like it without being banned.  This is not the case at most other blogs and forums.

    I am so far to the left I can almost see the right again.

    by beagleandtabby on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 11:33:13 AM PDT

  •  Why do I come here? (none)
    For chewy conversation on issues that matter to me.  I do not come here to read diaries or posts that aren't chewy - posts that are essentially taking turns (or not) talking to oneself.  Tell me something new or shudup.

    To those who spend hours crafting diaries that aren't appreciated - too bad.  I don't come here to applaud hard work.  To those whose diaries start and stay at the top and tell me nothing new - go away.  I don't come here to applaud popularity.  To those who have something to say and say it - keep on keepin' on.  We'll find you and appreciate you.

    Here's a question - when, and why, is compromise appropriate in a democratic government?  Is compromise always and only issue specific?  Does not the refusal to compromise compromise a democratic government?

    Everyone once in a while I'm startled by the mob mentality here - and in other lists I'm on.  The thoughtful silence themselves in direct proportion to the volume of the mob.  Scary stuff....

    So I post pictures of poodles.
    Image hosted by

  •  isn't this wasting a recommended spot? (4.00)
    Doesn't a rant break the very rules you just posted on dairies? Just wondering?
  •  the signal to noise ratio (4.00)
    has become almost unbearable. Like others have mentioned, there are very few diaries these days that I have the desire to comment, including a "thanks, for a great diary."

    The front page has never been the major draw for me and it has become even less so although I've appreciated the increased presence of DavidNYC and Hunter recently. They are, examples, of what I would like to see more of at dKos. Why? Because I learn something almost everytime I read something they've written.

    Recently, I took the time to add the diarists whose writing I most admire to my hotlist. (Jotter's recent 6 month summary was very helpful). This way, I've filtered out a lot of the "noise" and made sure that I don't miss something that may have gotten scrolled off the front.

    "I still think politics is about who's getting screwed and who's doing the screwing." -Molly Ivins

    by hono lulu on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 11:57:42 AM PDT

  •  What about this? (none)
    In my diary today about govt harassment of climate scientists, I introduced an article from "The Chronicle of Higher Education" and discussed it. My diary was mostly the article, but I also did some summary. Isn't it fair to say that most Kossacks haven't read this source?

    Something clever this way comes (or, maybe just something silly).

    by coigue on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 12:08:17 PM PDT

  •  I have an idea (4.00)
    over at they have users submit stories and then all the other folks vote if they want the story published.  They have something called a quicklink for breaking news and other interesting stuff.

    When diaries were first introduced here I thought they were my own op ed page where I could spout my opinions and others could comment.

    Not every diary has to be an essay, or research paper, I like the funny stuff, i like reading people's opinons, and I like reading the well researched diaries too.  

    As a long time user of dailykos(my UID is 142), I say please refrain from using breaking in the title unless the story has actually just broken, and please check to see if it has been posted already.  Keep up the funny stuff, unless you aren't funny, and you will know you aren't funny when people don't respond to your attempt at humor.  Keep up the well researched diaries, and keep up the spouting of your opinions, I like reading about what people think, and remember people aren't trolls just because they disagree with you.  

    absolute freedom for one individual undoubtedly limit's the freedom of another.

    by jbou on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 12:28:12 PM PDT

  •  Agree w/ content, not tone (none)
    While I have never written a diary myself I have lurked & commented for a while.

    an analogy
    I race sailboats - lots of very competative events - invitational etc.  I also race a "Duck Dodge" the racing is always a mess - the rules are broken regularly, but it's mid week, it summer on a small lake in the middle of Seattle.  It is also a very popular event.

    Duck Dodge is messy because IT's WHERE PEOPLE LEARN about sailing & racing.  Many of the elite racers learned to sail & race at Duck Dodge.  The old pros know that, they guide people.   Yelling at them might be satisfying, but all it really does is scare them away.  

    We want to grow the user base & lurkers not scare them away.

    That said - the repetative diaries & advertisements posing as diaries drive me crazy too.

    We need to figure out how to move people quicker up the learning curve.  I'm sure a community as creative & resourceful as this can figure out something.  One suggestion is a link for new diary posters with rules of the road.  I Know there is the FAQ's link, but how many new users know to look there.  I think you are getting a lot of people not familiar w/ blogs as you are (linking in from other sites).  

    That said, I enjoy your diaries & am amazed at the amount of research involved in some of them.

    Thank you for your time & effort.

  •  Why don't we have a (none)
    two-tier diary?  The first one can be a subscription diary only by and for those who are judged as falling within your comments.  An editor can be paid to only put a certain kind of diary up -- even posts.  The purist level.

    The second level can be thrown into the arena.  The Democratic arena.

    So we know what we are getting when we log on.  Perhaps some kind of test can be devised for new posters?    

    The beneficiaries are likely to be...large corporations and development firms. (O'Connor, J. dissenting in Kelo). God bless you, J. O'Connor.

    by xanthe on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 01:11:58 PM PDT

  •  Since there are almost 4,000 diaries a week (none)
    wouldn't it be a good idea to make the limit
    one a day for each poster?

    To thine own self be true - W.S.

    by Agathena on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 01:52:40 PM PDT

  •  Don't know how helpful this is, but... (none)
    ...I've found a well-phrased (I hope) comment on one of the recommended diaries tends to get more feedback than most of the diaries I've posted.  So if you're concern is exposure, here's a way to serve your objective without adding to the staggering number of diairies added on a daily basis.

    But that's just me...

    "Unk, the big trouble with dumb bastards is that they are too dumb to believe there is such a thing as being smart." -- Kurt Vonnegut, The Sirens of Titan

    by Roddy McCorley on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 02:22:45 PM PDT

  •  Stop screwing up kos... (4.00)
    ...for you, you mean. And those who agree with you. Your contributions to kos, G10, most certainly earn you the right to complain, suggest, cajole, guide, and even badger.


    -I come here to read brilliant diaries...
    -I DON'T come here to read...
    -I've tackled the "recommending" problem before...
    -that is one of the laziest things I've ever seen.

    Kos is a remarkable thing, almost a living thing. It will become what the majority of users want it to be, within the confines established by those paying the bills.

    The only "rules" are the ones that are enforced. And "etiquette" and "standards" are motile features of a community.

    I don't disagree with your goal -- I'm assuming your "tone" is a pasionate defense of a community you love.

    But portraying yourself as the arbiter of standards, and others as "lazy," "rude," "pathetic," "unconscientious," and "thoughtless" sounds anything but "loving."

    Kos is a difficult place for most newcomers. After several months, I understand perhaps 10% of what goes on. But the only "lesson for the new folks" here is keep the popular kos users happy or get called names.

    Lastly, I'm struck by the irony of a post that seeks to enforce the integrity and quality of a political blog by occupying a coveted "recommended diary" spot all day and generating nearly 400 comments that amount to little more than "I agree" or "I disagree."

    I can't help but wonder what brilliant diaries were lost in the rush to see what Georgia10 wrote.

    Only you can prevent dictatorships. ePluribus Media is accepting donations. Thanks.

    by Todd Johnston on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 02:42:18 PM PDT

  •  personal diaries (none)
    Please excuse my laziness, I didn't read all the posts so some similar thoughts may have come up.

    I'm personally not much of a scoop diarist. I have done a few of them, but get slightly agrivated when I find something and then write an analysis only to find out that by the time I'm done the story has already been covered. I'll do it if I think its necessary but I'm more of a subject/pseudo-philisophical poster. I post diaries usually about issues I find important to investigate or points I think are important to make. Often times this borders on a "personal diary". I won't write a diary about my favorite color or what I had for lunch, but if I have a personal moment I think is relevant to progressive politics it may make its way into a diary. Not sure if this qualifies as a "personal diary".

  •  As a newbie, I guess, (none)
    though I read Kos for a long while before I figgered out that I should sign up, I completely agree with what you've said. I wanted to say it myself, but I didn't have the status to give the message the appropriate resonance.

    "My own mind is my own church." Tom Paine

    by Snoutboy on Wed Jul 06, 2005 at 03:40:31 PM PDT

  •  so apparently the no duplicate diaries rule (none)
    just doesn't apply to front pagers? I mean, when some average joe posts a well thought out documented diary supporting a breaking story and twenty minutes later a frontpager walks on it with two lines and a couple of links....what is that about? is that just the way it is? I mean, fine, I don't own the site, but let's not have any illusions.
  •  Oh (4.00)
    Geez G10 you should know that no good deed goes unpunished.

    Look folks it ain't that hard to get a decent diery together, the rules are braod and rarely even enforced, and the demands of the readers are not diffcult to meet. Nor do you have to be ancient on this site or have connections. I'm new, I have zero connections, most of my stuff is not about breaking news or in depth political analysis; I'm not even a democrat.

    I have no problem getting stuff reco'd from time to time, probably more than my share of times. All you have to do is write; write halfway well about something 5% of the com  finds interesting and you're on the reco list. I just don't find it that difficult or the rules that restrictive or the comm that cliqueish, at all.

  •  Would a word count help? (none)
    I notice my few diaries are around 600 words and I think people tend to favour longer diaries at around 1,000 words. So instead of 'a link is not a diary' there could be a 1,000 word min.- just like in school. :-)

    To thine own self be true - W.S.

    by Agathena on Thu Jul 07, 2005 at 11:56:46 AM PDT

  • Close


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