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It seems clear to me now that the GOP is out of practice playing defense. Attack is like riding a bike for them. But defense? Not so much.

I watched Hardball's segment with Republican Tucker Eskew and Dee Dee Myers. Both sucked big time. Dee Dee, nice person that she no doubt is, just is not good at this sort of thing. Tucker Eskew is great on the attack. But was not good on defense. He really was making no sense, trying to turn it into an attack on Wilson, but it fell flat because it had little to do with the issue.

Chris Matthews tried to help out Eskew with some ridiculous softball questions - "Doesn't this sort of thing happen all the time?"  Uh no Chris, it is not often that people out covert CIA operatives. It is against the law you know.

Luckily, David Gregory was on the show and stepped in, correcting misstatements by Eskew and getting to the point - the White House lied to the American People about the fact that Rove leaked that Valerie Plame was a CIA operative.

That's the story now. The law will take care of itself. The Plame prosecutor will tell us about that if and when he hands down indictments.

But the White House has been lying to the American People about the fact that Rove leaked Plame's identity and about the fact that the President would fire whoever leaked this information.

Dee Dee, for the next time, that's all you need to know.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:33 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Attack is like riding a bike for them? (4.00)
    Geez, if they ride the way Bush does...
    •  Heh (none)

      The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

      by Armando on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:36:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Do you think that they're out of practice, (4.00)
        or is it just that this particular scandal is so indefensible as to be, well... make you look like an ass while trying to defend it?

        A poster in one of the other stories remarked that Mehlman et al are using the Scooby Doo defense: "... and we would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling MoveOn members!"

        Not really on their "A" game, true, but maybe defining the right talking points for treason requires more than a 24-hour brainstorming session, even for them.

        •  Mebbe (none)
          Dunno. No one thought it was such a problem last year.

          The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

          by Armando on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:49:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  In a sense I think (none)
          they are winning. There is a simple answer that no one is using. Wilson was right. There was no active nuke project so there was no reason to get the yellow cake.

          Instead there is this cacophony of noise that is obscuring that fact.

          •  If this is what they consider winning (none)
            then we have a major mine shaft gap to deal with.

            The name is not the thing named, the map is not the territory. -- Gregory Bateson

            by semiot on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 05:27:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Muddy the waters enough (none)
              and you can get away with just about any spin. Just ask the swiftliars.
              •  Here's the GOP problem (4.00)
                In the best case scenario, yes, this is the best case scenario:

                Karl Rove, the President's top political advisor, mistakenly outed the identify of a covert CIA agent.

                Got that, you wingnut scumbags. That is what your BEST CASE SCENARIO is...

                Karl Rove, the President's top political advisor, mistakenly outed the identify of a covert CIA agent.


                That should be our talking point or the base of our talking points...

                That is why the wheels have come off at Camp Chimp. It's excuse at this point is: we are defending the indefensible...

                I did not receive $ from Ketchum, U.S. Department of Ed or HHS to write this---though I wish I had.

                by Volvo Liberal on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 06:12:32 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Case in point (none)
                  GOP Hack Charles Black:

                  Still, Charles Black, a longtime GOP strategist, predicts Rove will survive.

                  "It's good fodder for a feeding frenzy. And Democrats are pouncing on Karl because they fear and hate him. But, based on what we know that Karl did, there's nothing wrong with that," Black said.

                  "The question at the time that was put to McClellan in 2003 was did Karl or these other guys intentionally leak the woman's name, which is a criminal offense. He didn't do that," said Black.


                  So everything is just peachy, right, Mr Black? Outing a CIA agent during wartime? And everything is just peachy since he didn't break a law. Sure thing...

                  I did not receive $ from Ketchum, U.S. Department of Ed or HHS to write this---though I wish I had.

                  by Volvo Liberal on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 06:15:17 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Scooby-Doo says (4.00)
        •  For bringing up the Scooby Doo Defense. (none)
          Yes I know you're just the messenger but it doesn't make it any less funny.

          I gave you a 4 which can go to the original poster when I find the unknown comic.

          All of the Scoob villains are running together into some blurred impression of Bill Frist, Karl Rove, and Donald Rumsfeld pulling some wacked stunt to scare the locals out of doing the right thing and to protect their theiving somebody else's treasure.

          God it works on so many levels.

        •  Old Man Cheney wearing a rubber leaker mask? (none)
          Damn, it's so obvious in retrospect.

          My reality-oriented brain just knew the White House wasn't really haunted.

        •  I just watched Mehlman with Wolf Blitzer (none)
          ...on the video at Crooks And Liars.

          Wolfie actually makes him squirm quite a bit; even if the questions are softballs, Mehlman probably knows he's on thin ice.  

          The problem is really this:

          * Mehlman's new plan of attack is to treat the single leaked Time e-mail like it's the whole story - an exact transcript of the conversation Rove and Cooper had - rather than a short summary e-mail Cooper sent out.  While it's possible Rove spoke a short, single sentence offhandedly referring to Valerie Plame as "Wilson's wife," it's also likely the conversation went a bit more into detail than that - as did potentially other conversations with other reporters - Novak, Miller, etc.  

          As a result, Mehlman and all the GOP cronies may very well end up playing the "Black Knight" defense:  "That's just a fleshwound!"  as each successive limb gets hacked off.

          * The new (emergency and wishful thinking damage control) plan also has so many holes, it's leaking like a sieve right off the bat.  Mehlman and others can't claim Rove and others have been cooperating for a year and want to get to the bottom of this, and also all profess surprise about the Time memo leaking into Newsweek.  If they were cooperating, this would have all been resolved a year ago because Rove and any others in the administration would have all piped up and explained that they spoke with reporters rather than let Bush and McClellan deny they ever did.  Sorry, but McClellan's and the others' "as we all just discovered with the Newsweek article" faux show of surprise isn't quite as charming or sincere (or well-intentioned) as a child's sleepy parents seeing what Santa brought.

          I think I'll do a little wishful thinking, quoting from one of my favorite OldManMurray "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out" moments:

          "What a week we've had!  Many of you have written to ask us how we feel about the DSM, internal strife in Iraq, the closing of FoxNews, and the rather matter-of-fact shitcanning of Karl Rove.  Where to start?

          We derive no pleasure from Karl Rove's loss of a job.   Yes, he was my arch-nemesis.  He was the Salieri to my Falco, the great Satan to my every major world religion, and the alleged Jon Benet Ramsey's parents to my Jon Benet Ramsey.  But unlike millionaire slash billionaire Lord British, Rove was also a working man just trying to get by on this mixed up planet I'm forced to call Chetland.  Like chubby John Goodman, he was made entirely of ham.  He was attuned to the everyday desires of the common people, also like chubby John Goodman.  It could be said that he was the chubby John Goodman of the gaming industry - a fat, foul-mouthed everyman who posed no real threat to anyone or anything other than the world's supply of pies.   Godspeed, Karl Rove.  You were a worthy adversary and a truly ginormous tub-o-lard."

          •  Anderson Cooper carved Mehlman... (4.00)
            ... right afterward.  It was classic.

            He was making the point of how they stick to their talking points.  He first showed at least 4 clips of McClellan answering questions a few years ago and using the word "ridiculous" in reference to Rove being involved with the leaks.

            He then showed about 5 clips from yesterday and 5 from today showing Scotty babbling about honoring the "ongoing investigation".

            Finally, he cuts over to at least 3 clips of Mehlman today with Wolfie using the word "smear."

            "I intend to live forever. So far, so good." Steven Wright

            by gsbadj on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 08:08:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Antidote to talking points? (none)
              Maybe tight video editing like you describe, where producers cut together dozens of shots of GOP mouthpieces saying essentially the same exact phrase (and then ideally juxtaposing that against some previous, but contradictory, talking points montage), is best weapon against the talking points. It makes them look as ridiculous as they are.

              They use this technique to great effect on the Daily Show quite frequently.

              I guess the problem is that on the supposedly serious news programs watched by most Americans, it's nearly impossible to get this kind of material in there without causing the right to sound the klaxons of liberal bias.

              From what I've seen, only Kieth Olberman seems willing to apply this treatment to the spin machine.

  •  "Silly Season" (none)
    This is one new talking point.  That the only reason this is amounting to anything that's getting attention is because - and I am not making this up - that it is summer.  And summer, in Tucker "The Tool" Eskew's insistent, repeated spin, is "the silly season."

    Has it really come to this?

    "Over time your quickness with a cocky rejoinder must have gotten you many punches in the face." --Al Swearengen

    by RepublicanTaliban on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:33:03 PM PDT

  •  Apparently, hell hath no fury ... (4.00)
    like a pissed off White House beat reporter. David Gregory's been storming around the last couple of days as if Scott McClellan himself peed in the guy's Froot Loops.

    It's about goddamn time.

    Spare the poor people of Crawford, Texas. Send Bush a one-way ticket to the moon instead.

    by JacksonBlogs on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:34:15 PM PDT

  •  Mehlman (4.00)
    Mehlman stopped by Wolf Blitzer this afternoon as well, and pulled a mini-McClellan.  He even came out to defend Rove and what was going on, what he was trying to do with the memo, etc., and then had the audacity to pull out the "Don't want to comment on an ongoing investigation..." line that McClellan should spray point over the Seal in front of him.  

    You're right - these guys don't defend well, especially when what they've done is indefensible.

  •  Donald Trump For President (4.00)
    At least he can say "you're fired."

    "The use of federal dollars to destroy life is something I simply do not support" -- George W. Bush

    by Irfo on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:35:53 PM PDT

  •  "That's Ridiculous" (4.00)
    David Gregory is turning out to be one of the best TV reporters. Please give him his own show.
    He really tried harder than most to hammer Scottie both yesterday and again today.

    "I'm not going to be your monkey"

    by gabie on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:36:35 PM PDT

  •  Anderson Cooper (4.00)
    had a GREAT leading segment on Rovegate that made the featured GOP look like asses (not that difficult but rare to see on CNN. Ken Mehlman in particular was pathetically weak with his tired 'crazy liberal' speak.

    Cooper actually showed clips of all the GOP talking points cut and spliced together for maximum effect, including the 2003 'its ridiculous' defense that McClellan gave regarding Rove.

    Did anyone see it? I was pleasantly surprised.

    Reigning Welterweight Female Piefighter since 1998

    by ablington on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:36:37 PM PDT

    •  I saw it (none)
      and had to double-check to make sure it was CNN. Have they suddenly become fair and balanced? It wasn't nice at all, if you're a Repiglican.
      •  I would say it ECLIPSED fair and balanced... (none)
        it was like CNN pushed the GOP to the ground and taunted them like schoolyard bullies. Good stuff!

        Reigning Welterweight Female Piefighter since 1998

        by ablington on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:43:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It was a great show today (none)
          Showing the bites of Mehlman saying over and over this is a smear campaign, really showed that there isn't any way to defend this.  He looked foolish.  

          Watched Connected too and it was really quite good, Monica Crowley pretty much was left out of the conversation and couldn't get in the talking points.  Ron Reagan was having some fun with Pat Robertson and Leon Panneta.  

          I know this can't last forever, but it's nice while it lasts.  

          •  Someone commented yesterday (none)
            in a diary that right now Rove can not call up the execs of the papers or networks as he would normally do, so maybe that has given them the green light to be reporters again.

            Fix the Problems, Don't create new ones

            by BarnBabe on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 06:39:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I saw it. Was shocked. (none)
      Saw a promo for it, and AC looked Giddy describing his new bit. He should have. I thought it was great. Every news show should do this: spend a segment a night deconstructing talking points. Then, if they really want to do their job, they could say "these are the facts that the talking points refer to. You decide."

      Those against politics are in favor of the politics inflicted upon them. Bertolt Brecht

      by akapensensei on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 05:29:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Saw Anderson Cooper... (none)
      then emailed comments...but they didn't read mine on air...wonder why? email:

      The despicable Dough Boy should cook in prison with the timer set for life!  

      By the way, is anyone connecting the dots in this culture of corruption? Bush/Cheney/treason? Fixed Intelligence/treason? Downing Street Memo/treason? Plame Outing/ROVE/treason? Wilson/Niger Report/ Illegal War/treason?  

      There are slimy rocks aplenty to probe under within the putrid atmosphere of the Bush/Cheney

      Are you investigating any of these questionable activities? Where are the minutes from the meeting that the British officials attended in the U.S.? My bet is that you will find them along with Rove under the slimiest rock!

      by thefos on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 05:35:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Delicious (none)
      Criminal Investigation
      Scooby Doo Defense

      Somebody didn't add the right amount of sugar to the Cherry Kool-Aid.

  •  Dee Dee Myers.... (none) totally unsuited to TV debate shows, just like a lot of the "liberals" they have on Harball.
    •  Debate is the ..... (none)
      .... antithesis of what a press secretary does. Dee Dee might be a wonderful and possibly even bright person, but parroting talking points for a couple of years is bound to kill a few brain cells.

      The person I would've liked Matthews to have on for this is Lawrence O'Donnell. If there's one guy who eats Republicans for breakfast, its him!  

      •  Hmmmm....... (none)
        ..... I'd hate to lose this fight with the administration. I remember reading a diary about some article in the SF Chronicle and how conservatives are always on the ball when it comes to getting their talking head access to the media.

        I'd hate to lose this fight and seems like we're not bringing our 'A' game. I didn't see the interview Aramando is referring to, but I gather it didn't go so great.

        I'm sure Chris "everyone outs CIA agents" Matthews' show isn't going to shape public opinion. That said, I hate that we're fumbling the ball now that we've got it back. I don't know who the best Democratic talking heads are, but it sounds like Dee Dee isn't one of them. Who is responsible for amateur crap like this?

    •  so true. (none)
      Don't we have any sharks to put on the TeeVee? For christ's sake, can we have an audition or something?

      I was so grossed out last night (as usual) watching *ucker Carlson trying to move the debate over to Wilson. Fortunately Rachel Naddow (sp?) was there to remind everyone watching that

      A) the CIA called for this investigation


      B) Joe Wilson is NOT the subject of it.

  •  I'm glad you also saw that (4.00)
    Dee Dee is far too soft, and talks far too slow. Someone needs to step up for the dems now, and be able to hammer out the sins, quickly. So glad that David Gregory was there. He's really good.

    "Bush is a liar and a loser." Harry Reid.

    by steelman on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:38:01 PM PDT

  •  which is it (none)
    i am confused
    is Valerie Plame a CIA who was well known and not even that important

    or the CIA agent who requested and organized a trip for her husband to look for whether Iraq was trying to obtain nuclear materials from Africa.

  •  Yikes! (none)
    Did anyone just hear the break in the Matthews show say they're preempting Olbermann for a special report on the shuttle?


    It is better to die standing than to live on your knees. - Emiliano Zapata

    by cotterperson on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:39:18 PM PDT

  •  Gregory & Moran (4.00)
    have both taken off the tin foil hats lately.  Gregory has been on fire over this.  I have a theory as to why they have been so flat footed on this issue.  I think there were no more stunned people in 'murica when SCOTUS declined to hear this case than the people in the WH.  I think they believed it would get picked up and then basically put on hold for another year and when it did come out they could scream election year politics at the top of their lungs.
    •  Hate to be a pedant (none)
      ...but people wear the tin foil hats to protect themselves from the Evil Orbiting Mind-Control Rays (tm)... to enable them to avoid acting like goose-stepping puppets of Those In Power (tm)... if Gregory and Moran are suddenly not regurgitating the White House talking points (which I neither dispute nor confirm, having not seen the segments in question), they have probably put on their tin-foil hats.

      See, see, it's the ones who know enough to wear their tin-foil hats that we need to trust. See? See?

      At least, that's my take.

  •  Gregory has suddenly (none)
    found his calls. He was good substituting for Matthews on HB. I wish he was the permanent host. Tweety is AWFUL.

    So apparently Mr. Tomlinson thinks Big Bird is a Democrat -Sen. Byron Dorgan(D-ND)

    by jj32 on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:42:33 PM PDT

  •  Talking Points by RNC (none)
    Wow, RNC talking points at its best/worst. I'd read the memo from RAW and rolled by eyes, but man oh man, Tucker Eskew spit out word for word the RNC talking points on this issue.  Niger, connection to Kerry/Democrats, Joe Wilson etc..

    The character assasination on Joe Wilson is disgusting really. He could be the Hillary Clinton's secret lover and it wouldn't matter because it does not  excuse the lies that Rove, McClellan and the Bush administration have done.  Nor does it excuse the fact that Rove compromised the security of a CIA agent just to score political points.  

    Nothing can hide the fact that Rove is toast.

    •  The GOP's best case scenario.... (none)
      As I mentioned above, given the repug talking points, their best case scenario in all this is the following:

      Karl Rove, the President's top political advisor, isn't guilty of treason at a time of war because he only mistakenly outed the name of a covert CIA agent.


      Again, that is their best case scenario when we take them at their word.

      And that folks should be OUR talking point: Their best talking point makes Karl Rove a threat to the nation at a time of war.

      Period. End. Of. Story.

      I did not receive $ from Ketchum, U.S. Department of Ed or HHS to write this---though I wish I had.

      by Volvo Liberal on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 06:20:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Armando, one comment (none)
    You said something about "people don't out covert agents".

    I love you Armando, I really do, but Karl Rove ain't people. He's the deputy chief of staff to the idiot POTUS.

    Rove is a traitor.

  •  I am waiting for this story (none)
    To morph into more then an inside the beltway story. If Rove is charged criminally it will, otherwise I fear it will stay a complex political fight that will drag on where the average TV viewer doesn't have any idea what they are talking about and doesn't care.
    •  Check out Raybin's diary (none)
      It's getting out there, but I do see what you are saying.

      So apparently Mr. Tomlinson thinks Big Bird is a Democrat -Sen. Byron Dorgan(D-ND)

      by jj32 on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:51:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Pretty sad (none)
      that the average TV viewer is that stupid huh?  I weep for the nation....
    •  My Mom and Dad (none)
      are average viewers, and the complexity of this story is already over their heads. It takes a pretty astute political mind to follow a lot of this shit, and that is one reason why the Repugs are going all out to deflect the attention away from the actual event that stated the whole thing. They are now really trying to confuse the average American, and if history teaches one thing, the Dem message has to continue to stay simple. One or two talking points, don't be pulled into an argument over bullshit obfuscatory facts, keep it simple like Gregory did tonight. And Dee Dee Myers wasn't killer, but she didn't do any damage. She did manage to say that this whole thing now is not about Joe Wilson's credibility. I don't think she makes my All-Star media team. But if Bob Strum is the best that can be trotted out, we could be in trouble.
  •  Not quite fair to Dee Dee... (none)
    In response to Eskew's lame attack on J. Wilson, she asked, not once but twice, what any of that had to do with Rove leaking Plame's identity as a CIA operative.

    It IS true that she seems a little...meek for this kind of infighting.

    Okay, maybe Bush is killing innocent people around the world but at least the economy sucks.

    by Pyewacket on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:44:58 PM PDT

    •  We need someone ... (4.00)
      We need someone who can go on these shows and be really strong without coming off as just batshit crazy. Carville used to seem like that guy, but I half expect him to start eating live baby birds halfway through each segment. What a creepy dude.

      Too bad Robert Reich is relegated only to issues involving the economy. He has a great voice, makes sound arguments, has a terrific sense of humor, and has a way of making those opposing him sound like blithering idiots. He'd be perfect.

      Spare the poor people of Crawford, Texas. Send Bush a one-way ticket to the moon instead.

      by JacksonBlogs on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:50:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's hard work being stupid (4.00)
        Reich, et al, aren't normally on the blathering idiots shows because they are, well, NOT blathering idiots... it's kinda wearing and certainly dispiriting for people of real intelligence to continually go up against robotic morons. Reich is a professor of economics and gets his kicks from spirited debate based on actual arguments.
        Mehlman is an pre-programmed idiot who reflexively protects someone like Rove. Think about it, he doesn't just visit dumb on occasion, sweet mother of Abraham Lincoln, but he lives there!!!
        When the debate and the issues are dumbed down the Liberals and the Democrats will always be at a disadvantage. I think it speaks well of them that this continues to be the case.
    •  You nailed it (none)
      "Meek" is the perfect word for any dem talking head. WTF are they afraid of? They let the likes of Bay Buchannan, Tucker Askew, and other repuks talk over them, no guts. I want a screamer, I want someone who doesn't let the other side get a second or third chance to put their point out without a peep.
      Where the hell is HOWARD?

      "I'm not going to be your monkey"

      by gabie on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:54:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  He's the only one (none)
        I mean, even the Dem leadership has drunk the kool-aid, in some respects. And by doing so, they are just pimps for the Bushies.

        Dean seems to be the only one out there who's saying, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore!!"

        "Bush is a liar and a loser." Harry Reid.

        by steelman on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 05:03:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Who decides who gets to be our talking heads? (none)
        There are some really smart and quick democrats available to be our talking heads -- people from the blogs (like our fearless leaders at TDK) or even talk left radio (like the Young Turks). Why don't they get on these shows?

        My point is I don't think that people aren't available -- they just don't get asked.

  •  Sauce for the Goose (none)
    From your description of Dee Dee (and from everything else that isn't going on), it seems the Democrats are out of practice too, only their lack of practice is at attacking. Here's to hoping they learn to swim fast.

    This aggression will not stand, man.

    by kaleidescope on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:45:42 PM PDT

  •  Is it about telling the truth or keeping your word (none)
    Bush made a vow, a commitment to the American people, that he would fire whoever leaked Plame to the press. Why is Bush not keeping his word to us Muricans? What is the worth of the word of the POTUS? Pound these questions into the press, people, get Bush to say (a) he was lying about firing a traitor or (b) his words are worth less than a slug.
    •  it depends on what the meaning of 'is' is. (none)
      bush will get out of this trap by claiming that while rove 'discussed' the agent's identitiy, he did not 'reveal' or 'leak' her name.  worst of all he may really believe his lie.

      i'm worried that the only definitive proof against rove is going to jail in the person of judith miller.  miller is taking one for the team, but she gets to play the role of the selfless professional journalist standing for a free press.  the trush is she is a hack and has done more than anyone else at the new york times to promote this damned war.  she deserves to be in jail, but not for keeping rove's secret.

      "Rick Santorum is Latin for Asshole."

      by tmendoza on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 07:59:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  You got it exactly right.... (none)
    Attacking is the name of the game for this crowd.  It is all they know.  That's why we will soon see the diversionary tactics popping up... accusations against Time Magazine or Cooper; Valerie Plame will certainly turn out to have a past as will her husband the ambassador; the prosecutor will have a partisan agenda... etc.  They will turn it into Offense since they don't do Defense.  Wait and see.

    A Silent Cacophony

  •  slightly OT (none)
    I was just watching Dickhead Myers on Jim Lehrer and he commented that he was going to be retiring soon. I want to know why he gets to retire and all our guys are subjected to stop-loss orders when they reach their retirement dates and they have to stay in Iraq, or worse yet, get redeployed endlessly.
  •  Dee Dee (4.00)
    Always reminds me of the 9th grade substitute teacher who comes prepared with her lesson plan, but is also always three steps behind all the smart alecks in the class. Half of her time on screen she's staring at the camera, trying to think of something to say. Meanwhile the Republican attack dog jumps into the silence with the wingnut talking points of the day. I'm sure she's a terrific person, but she's way too slow to make an effective, pointed comment in the 20 seconds of screen shots she's allowed.

    "Everything that rises must converge"

    by jpgod on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:51:13 PM PDT

  •  Mounting a coherent defense (none)
    requires logic--and the Bush crowd is no good at that.  Not sure they ever have been.

    ...the White House will be adorned by a downright moron...H.L. Mencken

    by bibble on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:54:16 PM PDT

  •  Not just Rove (4.00)
    The White House intentionally disclosed the name of a CIA undercover agent.

    The White House has been lying about the fact that they disclosed the name of a CIA undercover agent.

    Now the White House is trying to cover up their lie.

    The reason the White House disclosed the name of a CIA undercover agent was because her husband had verified that certain White House statements about Hussein's WMD capability were false.

    In order to get elected, President Bush assured Americans that he considered the outing of a CIA agent so serious that he would fire anyone involved. Now that he is elected he is flip-flopping on his statement.

    "Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed." General Buck Turgidson

    by muledriver on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:56:17 PM PDT

  •  Of course thay can't play defense. (none)
    They don't have to. They are never held accountable for anything.  If someone tries, they shift the blame on to someone else.

    Iraq war - liberals are undermining war effort   and encouraging insurgents

    Prison torture - just a few out of control personell

    Even now they are trying to blame Rove's leaks on Plame.

  •  smash-and-grab politics (none)
    Great article (and the poor author got ganged on by wingnuts, so drop by and leave a comment if you will)

    Hurl brick, snatch high court?
    Jac Versteeg
    Jac Versteeg
    Read his bio
    Will the Bush administration ever give up smash-and-grab politics? It's doubtful, since that's the way President Bush came to power. His election machine threw a rock through the window of states' rights and pulled out a one-time-only U.S. Supreme Court decision. Now the Supreme Court could be the focus of another smash-and-grab case.

    What is smash-and-grab politics? Get what you can while the getting's good, and the consequences for everyone else be damned. It's the attitude that says tax cuts for the wealthy are justifiable even in the face of war and record deficits.

    Smash-and-grab extends to environmental policy.. Does it matter if expanded drilling in Alaska is harmful, won't produce much oil and is a poor policy compared with conservation? No. Get what you can while you can.

    it turns out that war also is a good vehicle for smash-and-grab politics. Bush-administration friend Halliburton seems to be stuffing its pockets with as much gusto as any Iraqi who went on a looting binge after Baghdad fell..

    In addition to war contracts, war is full of emotion to grab and exploit for political gain.. In 2004, President Bush hid behind the Swift Boat Gang while it smashed John Kerry's medals to grab headlines.

    Might the situation change now that President Bush's popularity is dented by the dismal events in Iraq? Not likely. If you're not for President Bush, you're against the troops. Karl Rove will tell you so, as he heaves another brick. In fact, the possibility that an un-Bush might succeed this president is all the more reason to accelerate the pace of smash-and-grab. There will be a more feverish push to make tax cuts permanent and to open Social Security accounts so brokerage firms can take a slice out of private accounts. As perhaps the most glittering prize in the governmental window, there should be no hesitation in smashing whatever is necessary to grab the Supreme Court. ick_snat.html

    GOP knows it can get away with murder. Heaven help us all!

    by lawnorder on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:56:46 PM PDT

  •  Of course they're out of practice (none)
    No one, particularly the press, has been forcing them to defend themselves. They've been able to get away with the most mind-boggling shit because up until now, their lies didn't directly effect the press itself. Now you've got a member of the press in jail and another being smeared as having "tricked" or "burned" Rove into revealing this deep secret, and it's got their hackles up. If that wasn't worth Judy Miller going to jail for, I don't know what is.

    lib·er·al: Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.

    by Joan McCarter on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:57:10 PM PDT

    Check out "Whatever Already"......
  •  Don't underestimate these guys (none)
    The Republicans might be out of practice temporarily.  But they have their talking points ready to go, and you can bet that they'll get better at reciting them.  Also, they don't have to convince people that they're right.  They just have to present a defense that's plausible enough to make the average American get confused about who's right on the issue.  Once people are confused, it's a lot easier to convince them that this is just another political squabble that they need not worry about.  The headlines screaming "White House Won't Comment on Rove" were bad for the Republicans, because they made it look like they had no defense.  Republicans aren't going to let that state of affairs last.
    •  I think the 4th estate may go meta (none)
      on the talking points thing now though. The story is now, the Republican machine is a talking points machine. They don't do substance, only spin. Let's help!

      The name is not the thing named, the map is not the territory. -- Gregory Bateson

      by semiot on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 06:00:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Willis on Fox (none)
    just claimed that Rove deserves a medal, arguing that the Niger yellowcake lead was never clarified (erm, I thought it was COMPLETELY discredited, but I am open to correction!) and that whoever sent a "peacenik" off on a mission at a time when we needed to go to war should be outed.

    Watch it here

    Do not burn down your own house to inconvenience even your chief wife's mother. (proverb)

    by eco on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 04:59:02 PM PDT

    •  correction (none)
      sorry, GIBSON on Fox, listed on Oliver Willis' site

      Do not burn down your own house to inconvenience even your chief wife's mother. (proverb)

      by eco on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 05:04:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  He sure does! (none)
      Medal of Freedom!

      Seems since Bush ascended the throne, the best way to deserve one of those is to be an A-number-1 screwup!

      "You're either with us or against us in the war on terror." - George W. Bush
      "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." - Obi Wan Kenobi

      by Stymnus on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 05:08:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe (none)
        Judy should get something too...maybe a knighthood...arise, Sir Judy, defender of extremist journalism!

        Do not burn down your own house to inconvenience even your chief wife's mother. (proverb)

        by eco on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 05:44:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  If you DIDN't Know the status of a CIA...WHY (none)
    would one (KR) (potentially)treat this kind of disclosure so lightly?  For the sake of National Security, the LAW and most of all, INTEGRITY, KR should NOT be engaging in CONVERSATIONS with repporters or anyone below the Prez on CIA personnel or related events-SPECIALLY IF THEY DON'T KNOW THE STATUS of a person or event!
  •  Does Matthews put people liek Biden on... (none)
    just to piss off Democrats. Matthews obviously doesn't like getting critisized from the left because Biden is the fucking worst. His answers are the way how not to frame the Rove situation. Matthews asked him do the Democrats wish they had someone like Rove on their side. Biden was trying to answer the question then someone started tugging on his sleeve and answered Yes with a smile. What the fuck was that?
    •  that's not what happened (none)
      No one tugged on him, his reply was "Yes, but..."
      and the thought better than completing the sentence. The sentence would have said, "Yes, but someone who's not a crook and a liar." But at the last second he decided not to do that. His big grin at the end, was his obvious recognition that he couldn't complete the thought. He thought it was very funny and simply ended it by saying, "Yes," with a big, big grin.

      He was being diplomatic. I saw it that way.

      "Bush is a liar and a loser." Harry Reid.

      by steelman on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 05:09:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The reason (none)
    that Republicans aren't used to playing defense is 100% the media.

    The cowed, corporate media has been so subservient in this administration that there is never any followup.  When they get the courage to ask about something, it comes up one time, the administration responds with the talking points, the reporter nods and writes it down.

    Yesterday, for the first time, you saw a degree of tenacity from the WH press corps.  They've finally reached the boiling point.  Having one of their colleagues in jail over this has to raise their interest level as well.

    Finally, you have a Republican prosecutor who gives the whole thing legitimacy.  The story continues for as long as his investigation progresses.  This isn't John Conyers, no offense, holding a hearing in the basement.

  •  Of course the GOP is out of practice! (none)
    The MSM sycophants have been giving the Repubs a free ride since election day 2000. They haven't had to play defense since, like, Iran-contra. Until this week.

    This is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.

    by socal on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 05:01:07 PM PDT

  •  Quick question... (none)
    Can the DOJ shut this down?

    Haven't seen it asked or answered, and sorry if it's already been debated.

  •  Our only talking point (4.00)
    Mr. President
    If Karl Rove told you that he had no part in disclosing Mrs. Wilson's identity, he now has LIED TO YOU. Did he lie to you and if he did, why are you tolerating his continued presence in your Administration?

    Folks, let's not play by the Republican rules. This is not about the legality of what Rove did, its about ethics, honesty, patriotism. It's not about what Rove was intending to do (get the media off the uranium story), whether he named names, or if he knew he was breaking the law. They are trying to have it both ways. POUND them with their own stick of patriotism and WOT.

    •  True this is how framing works... (none)
      very good post. CNN just framed the debate perfectly. Is Karl Rove a goner? They also said that they heard all the rnc talking points trying to discredit wilson.
  •  What happens if Fitzgerald is shot ? (1.00)
    Or Miller ?

    Just asking... GW's team doesn't seem the kind who would do it, as they prefer character assassination.

    But I can't help but be afraid for the key witness and prosecution team. I never thougth I'd be praying for Judy Miller's health!

    GOP knows it can get away with murder. Heaven help us all!

    by lawnorder on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 05:05:15 PM PDT

  •  Gregory (none)
    Gregory also said that they've kind of realized that the WH is not going to answer questions about Rove , so  I don't think they'll be asking as many questions anymore.
  •  Gingrich on Fox , Oreilly right now.... (none)
    Even Oreilly started laughing at Gingrich as he repeated everything from the right wing talking points that were at Raw Story. Oreilly asked him if he was willing to stake his reputation on this.
  •  Tell Dee Dee to say this... (4.00)
    Basically Karl Rove said this


    I wish some one would do a little graphic with Rove pointing his finger in the air!

  •  Offense: Or Why I Supported and Support Dean (4.00)
    The only way to beat the Republicans is to play offense every minute of everyday.  Not just 24/7 but also 60/60.  Dean understands this and this is why so many of us have a place in our heart for him.  We are tired of being kicked around by the Rethugs, the media, and the public.  They don't respect us because we are weak.  Playing offense is one way to get respect.  Playing offense also puts the Rethugs on the defensive.  As this diary notes, it is not something they are good at and not something they are used to.  Challenge every word, every policy that comes out of Bush's mouth and the Rethugs will slowly crumble.

    Once in awhile you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right

    by Direwolf on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 05:11:20 PM PDT

  •  Tom Liddy, helping Karl Rove write his speech (none)
    Tom Liddy, helping Karl Rove write his speech

    n the summer of 2003, Ambassador Wilson wrote an op-ed in The New York Times providing false information to the American people. I called several reporters, including TIME magazine's Matt Cooper and warned him not to go too far out on a limb on Wilson's version of events. Wilson had not been sent on a fact-finding mission by the director of Central Intelligence or the vice president, but by his wife.

    I did not know Plame's name at the time I spoke to Cooper, nor did I know that she had ever worked covertly for the CIA. If her cover is blown, it was not by me, but, in fact, her own hand. Plame's usefulness as a covert asset for the United States was over the moment she decided to play politics by sending her husband over to Africa, only to have him return and write a false story critical of an incumbent president standing for reelection. My job was to get the facts out. I did. The American people had a right to know the truth.

    I will continue to serve this president proudly, and my country, for as long as it is his pleasure.

  •  Plame Blame Game (none)
    Bu$HCo will blame the "liberal" media and they'll even try and to blame Bill Clinton if they somehow tie Billy into this? Give the Rethug twisterama some time and I'm sure in a few days Rush, Sean, Bill and the rest of the right wing nosie machine will have found some minor mistake in the "partisan" sttack or if necessary Karl will get some stooge to write up some phony docs. to try and get a MSM plant to bite at like they took Rather down with last fall. In the end Rove will in all likeilhood get the "Medal of Freedom" and a promotion for his valiant and patriotic work outing a known traitor (Amb. Wilson) and his ("Bitch V. Plame")  

    "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees"

    by Blutodog on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 05:20:38 PM PDT

  •  Nothing will happen to Rove (none)
    or anyone else in the Bushco admin.   They are like Teflon and will find a way to slide out.

    The rethugs twist and turn the facts until no one can understand what is going on, and the American public doesn't care.  Nothing will happen to these assholes.  

    The fuckers started a war and nothing is going to happen to them.  A "little outing" of a CIA agent is no big deal in this scheme.

    Biden too was on Hardball and was an ass as usual.  We can't even get coherent opposition.  I'm disgusted with all of them!

  •  David "Stretch" Gregory grows a spine (none)
    Bush's pet nickname for David Gregory is "Stretch." I guess being welcomed into Bush's arms with a cool nickname wasn't enough to keep him in line. He is finally growing the appearance of a spine. Of course there is still plenty of room in the back row, along with Helen Thomas, but not everyone can sit in the back row. Who knows, the back row might even be the new cool place to be, just like High School.

    To quote Seagent Elias from Platoon. "The worm has turned. Feeling good is good enough."

    The Bush administration is a Travesty of a Mockery of a Sham!

    by Bailey Savings and Loan on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 05:32:24 PM PDT

  •  Rove (3.50)
    Take the time to write to NBC, CBS, ABC news and any other reporters you think did a great job. I especially was impressed with the questioning of John Roberts, Terry Moran, and of course my fave, David Gregory. Helen Thomas was not mum either! You got to keep up the positives to their stations so that they will keep up the good work in pressing this issue! I cannot believe, well then I can believe, how their twisted talking points are out...its now on O'Reilly and I am sure it will be on Hannity tonight on 'Wilson being the bad guy. Its such a distortion..these people are totally warped in their thinking..Here those shows were mum yesterday, but, the RNC comes out with their talking points and all of a sudden they are out and aiming back. Lets encourage our press to keep pressing...knaw for the truth! Did anyone count how many times PUFFY MCMOON FACE said ongoing investigation?
  •  Chris Matthews (4.00)
    has set journalism and quality tv back 100 years, on the other hand when you have nothing to offer you must kiss the con ass in America just to stay afloat, the only thing hard about his program are the GOP balls he has in his mouth every night.
  • Domain Name (none)
    FYI -- for anyone so inclined, I just checked and the domain name isn't taken yet.  So if any of you with creativity and some web skillz want it, register away!
  •  I happened upon Lars Larson last night: (none)
    The topic was WalMart, and whether these stores are good for towns.

    An older gent called, and said that back in the 50's GM was the nation's largest employer, and now WalMart is, and how can that be good for the American worker? Mr. Larson actually said something like:

    It's about competition, and WalMart is going to raise the level of quality in America. Americans would rather buy quality products rahter than cheaper ones.

    I really couldn't believe what I was hearing, as everyone but Mr. Larson seems to know is that WalMart doesn't manufacture anything.

    But he didn't stop there. He then blasted those small businesses that are complaining about having to compete against the BIG BOX. According to Mr. Larson, if these folks want a guaranteed job, then they should move to a socialist country where manufacturing is controlled by the government.

    This sounded like a description of China, the largest supplier of shitty products to...WalMart.

    It was amazaing, so despite my stutter, I had to call. For all of you who have never called these shows before, when the screener asks, "What do you wanna talk about?", just say, "Your host is either an idiot or a liar." This is guaranteed to put you right to the head of the line.

  •  David Gregory has balls (none)
    I honestly believe that MSNBC's David Gregory is one of a few journalists who have actually kept their integrity in tact since this administration came to office.  He has consistently asked the tough questions
  •  I want them to keep attacking Wilson (none)
    They are playing right into our hands. They are saying what Wilson did was political. Keep saying that.

    What Wilson did is find out that the Niger Uranium evidence that played a part in sending American kids off to war in the search for WMD was a fraud. That's what Wilson uncovered. Keep attacking him. Frankly, it just doesn't matter who the hell Joe Wilson is. His reserach was right. The document was a fraud.

    Joe Watkins got his butt kicked by Katrina Vanden Heuvel on CNN. Really, it was Paula Zahn who kicked his ass, and Vanden Heuvel just piled on with some pieties.

    "If cows and horses had hands, they would depict their gods as cows and horses." Xenophanes

    by upstate NY on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 05:59:40 PM PDT

  •  Lovin' Bill Press (none)
    He's jumpin' in Hannity, aka the Vanilla Gorilla's, as*
  •  Maybe this is a Don Bolles moment (none)
    Don Bolles was an investigative reporter for the Arizona Republic who was assassinated with a car bomb in 1976.  Investigative reporters from many newspapers then converged on Phoenix to both investigate his death and to continue the investigation of the Mafia family that murdered Don, resulting in prize-winning (and ultimately thug convicting) journalism.

    Now, I don't think Miller and Cooper can hold a candle to Bolles, nor do I think that being locked up in Club Fed is remotely comparable to assassination.  But for all the press wailing and gnashing of teeth over the contempt citations, maybe its time the press buckled down and investigated and exposed the thugs, cheats, and murderers of the Bush Administration.

  •  This is why I wish our leadership (none)
    ... would make a point bigger than "Fire Rove!"

    This is not sex in the White House (that had the Republicans calling for impeachment).  This is blowing the cover of a secret agent working on the most sensitive subject involving the saftey of our nation and our citizenry... nuclear, chemical and biological weapons proliferation.

    Add to that the point that the President and his press secretary have repeatedly said over the last two years that Rove was not involved, and we have something the average Joe can understand.

    Many Americans are looking at London and wondering, "When does the other shoe drop here?"  And we should be connecting those fears directly to the outing of Plame.

    This administration compromised the most critical element of our national security out of cynical political vindictiveness.

    I'm not sure that the average American understands the issue enough to view the continued calls for Rove's firing as anything more than just another, typical Washington partisan battle.

  •  FDR speaks to us today... (none)
    "The best way of dealing with the few slackers or troublemakers in our midst is, first, to shame them by patriotic example, and, if that fails, to use the sovereignty of Government to save Government.
    As men do not live by bread alone, they do not fight by armaments alone. Those who man our defenses, and those behind who build our defenses, must have the stamina and the courage which come from unshakeable belief in the manner of life which they are defending. The might action that we are calling for cannot be based on a disregard of all things worth fighting for.

    FDR's Annual Message to Congress, 1941. (known as the "Four Freedoms" speech.)

    Oh, yeah, in that same speech, there's this gem, which should be the liberal rallying cry, methinks:
    "We must especially beware of that small group of selfish men who would clip the wings of the American Eagle in order to feather their own nests."
  •  asdf (none)
    i sawit too. Tucker was pathetic.the reporter had to keep refocusing on what the real issue was, I thought that was Chris Matthew's job (but he's just as weak to say hte least)

    May the Schwartz be with you!

    by FLS on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 06:17:36 PM PDT

  •  Watching Larry King (none)
    20 minutes for Rove, now back to Aruba.
    Jeez, priorities anyone?
  •  "Be able to resign" (none)
    Be able to resign. It will improve your value to the president and do wonders for your performance.
    -- One of Rumsfeld's Rules For keeping your bearings in the White House

    Maybe he should add, "Have the courage to fire people who don't have the decency to resign." But the rules aren't for presidents.

  •  Bush/Rove/Whitehouse not above the law! (none)
  •  Thank you, and can you please (none)
    some how get this to other Democrats appearing on TV. I saw the same scenario play out on CNN where the Democrat- that guy Beinart got off topic during his segment defending Wilson, and the yellowcake issue, when the only fucking point he needed to repeat is that outting a CIA operative is illegal, and that the white house, if nothing else, has been lying to us. That's all he needed to say- yet there he was confusing even me- and I've been following this. Why are our national talking points people so dumb- or is it that they are using the worse spokes people
  •  Cheers to those that give us a say! (none)
    As I said before, write to those press guys in the front lines tell them keep it up. Don't let the story die..Give them some ammo, have them mention DSM again..lets get it started people..and the only people we have is our press right now....Write to your Congress and Senators also, I, however, live in Republicanville Va! and have not gotten any responses on my email to my Sens and Congress to fire Rove. So, I suggest we get the press to bring this story to front pages and keep it there....until the truth comes out!!!
    Give praises to our press that are out there asking the questions..hey they are making waves now at the press conferences...THose press conferences are becoming exciting!!! Keep up the good work...Puffy MCMOONFACE.(Scotty).YOU NEED TO TELL THE TRUTH!
  •  You're not being completely fair to Dee Dee! (none)
    I just heard the Hardball rerun and Dee Dee clearly called "Tucker" to task on one great thing. On of the talking points he used was that Wilson voted for Kerry. She said something like:

    What does it matter that Wilson voted for Kerry?

    Even if Rove isn't "guilty" why was Rove be trying to discredit Wilson?  

    Tucker made some weak response about Wilson's information being bad.

    But Dee Dee hung in there with the fact that Wilson was proven right!

    I was proud of the girl for that...

    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke

    by CyberDem on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 08:20:49 PM PDT

  •  whats next for the Republican white house (none)
    This is what I think will happen...the White House is going to announce the judicial nominee real soon..this will keep our press from this other issue..they seem to do that alot when things come up that are not to their liking..or they will have terrorist threat all of a sudden..We need to tell our press to keep this news fresh...If a white woman missing in Aruba can last 2 months so can this...right?
  •  Cheney's involvment (none)
    I watched the segment also and I thought DeeDee started to make the point about Wilson is not the issue but she was run over by Eskew.  What caught my attention was Matthews saying that he had the transcript of a Cheney interview, with Russert I think, where Cheney stated that "I asked the CIA to check out the Niger connection".  That would mean that the VP did request the investigation and the CIA sent Wilson.  How and why the CIA sent Wilson is really not the issue.  Also, I heard on another show that the attempt to buy yellowcake has now been proven true....does anyone know if this is so???
  •  Rove/Plame: No White House lies (none)
    The evidence has been out there the entire time to prove it and our crack investigative team here at `I'm here so I blog!' has uncovered the photographic evidence to prove it.

    Yes!  I have photographic evidence that should dispel this rumor once and for all!

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