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Are you a man?  Are you tired of coming in second place - or worse?  Does your wife spank you (without consent, that is)?  Does your boss walk all over you?  Worse, do your co-workers?  Were you beat up, stuffed in lockers and forced to wear someone else's jock strap on your head?

Don't laugh because we may have just found out why some people support the war, drive SUVs and hate gays.

From Cornell's website:

Threaten a man's masculinity and he will assume more macho attitudes, according to a study by a Cornell University researcher.

"I found that if you made men more insecure about their masculinity, they displayed more homophobic attitudes, tended to support the Iraq War more and would be more willing to purchase an SUV over another type of vehicle," said Robb Willer, a sociology doctoral candidate at Cornell. Willer is presenting his findings Aug. 15 at the American Sociological Association's 100th annual meeting in Philadelphia.


Willer administered a gender identity survey to a sample of male and female Cornell undergraduates in the fall of 2004. Participants were randomly assigned to receive feedback that their responses indicated either a masculine or a feminine identity. While women's responses were unchanged regardless of the feedback they received, men's reactions "were strongly affected by this feedback," Willer said.

"Masculinity-threatened men also reported feeling more ashamed, guilty, upset and hostile than did masculinity-confirmed men," states Willer's report, "Overdoing Gender: Testing the Masculine Overcompensation Thesis."


He questioned subjects about their political attitudes, including how they felt about a same-sex marriage ban and their support for President Bush's handling of the Iraq War.

"I created composites from subjects' answers to these and other questions," he said. "I also gave subjects a car-buying vignette, presented as part of a study of purchasing a new car."

Masculinity-threatened participants also showed more interest in buying an SUV. "There were no increases for other types of cars," Willer said.

Hmmm...  Hannity, O'Reilly, Rush, Savage...  and lest we forget, haven't we seen pictures of Chimpy in a cheerleading outfit?

Originally posted to Mike Stark on Mon Aug 08, 2005 at 10:53 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Point of confirmation... (4.00)
    A friend was telling me -- a few months ago -- about a study by some auto company, profiling the typical SUV buyer.  They have cause to want to know who is likely to buy what.

    The description of the normal SUV buyer was utterly in accordance with this.  Summed up it said over-compensating, big-time. It was a description of who you wouldn't care to be.

    "Too many policemen, no liberty; Too many soldiers, no peace; Too many lawyers, no justice." Lin Yutang (1895-1976)

    by ogre on Mon Aug 08, 2005 at 11:07:41 PM PDT

    •  I guess I'm not typical (none)
      But then again, I bought a VUE and gave it to my dad.  He has a bad back and needed something higher off the ground to ease in and out so as not to hurt him further.

      When I went shopping for one of these vehicles, all the SUV sellers did ask me about my "husband" of which there is none.  They were much less helpful once they discovered I was actually the buyer and that I was more interested in a manual transmission and gasmileage.  I mean, come on, who's not concerned by this stuff?  I don't care what color the car is as long as it has the transmission I want and the mileage I need.

      And yes, my dad is thrilled with the VUE which gets 29 to the gallon.  He stopped calculating the mileage he gets in the old Expedition he has.  Now, the VUE goes everywhere.

      Oh, and don't buy a car in Ohio.  No, seriously, I did.  THe car had fallen off a truck during transport and I didn't find this out until I brought it in to have a fender tightened (it's a Saturn after all, they can do this sort of thing).  $1235 worth of work, but it was technically $10 under the required minimum % of costs.  So, by Ohio law, they didn't have to inform me of the flaw.  I'm more upset with Ohio's consumer protection laws than the dealership not disclosing.  Oh, and yes, they can discount their labor costs and don't have to include fenders or glass in the repair costs.  My Saturn dealership in Maryland told me the real costs for the repairs were in excess of $3000 minimum.  And they also noted, that in Maryland, this info would have been disclosed.  Guess we know where I'm buying next time.

      •  No, you're not typical (none)
        because most of the people I know out here in Red-land don't even know how many MPG their bloated vehicle gets. They want the biggest possible car to compensate for their itty-bitty penises and they don't care about anything else at all. It's that rugged individualism the Republicans care so much about -- you know, the kind that requires thousands of barrels of oil from halfway round the world to sustain.
        •  It's funny though (none)
          The times may be 'a changin. I'm in San Antonio and there are a f***load of giant SUVs and pickups on the roads here. But, in the last 6 months I've had several people -- mostly at gas stations -- ask what kind of mileage my 2001 Jetta gets. I smile and say about 35. They just nod and say "that must be nice."

          $100 oil? I say bring it on!

          •  THIS guy is a man with confidence!! (4.00)
            Image hosted by

            Secure in his masculinity!

            Reigning Welterweight Female Piefighter since 1998

            by ablington on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 07:27:09 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Don't say that! (none)
            "Bring it on" just makes me nervous. (I wonder why?)

            I did just buy a diesel Jetta, though.

          •  vdubbin' (none)
            Big up to a fellow vw owner - love the dub! In the good ole south (GA) I see on average more SUV vehicles than economy-sized cars  on the road and I laugh bc my lil turbo jetta may cost me more to fill at the current prices I still am not feeling the pain like some of these gas-guzzlers do & still get decent mileage even though I like to utilize the turbo -- yay...whoosh! And also, most of the SUVs I do see have Bush stickers on them.. ack.. I really really want to get bright neon yellow or red FASCIST stickers to put over the Bush/Cheney04 or the great "W".

            the horror of it all

            by AntiHero on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 09:25:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  SUV (none)
      I wonder which is more important, overcompensating or the federal tax laws that PAY small businessmen to buy SUVs instead of cars for their primary use. I know which one weighed more heavily on my father, and which resulted in my driving a gently used (but depreciated) SUV today.
    •  That's hillarious (none)
      but don't forget that it could indicate at least a couple of things. The first is not surprising, the second is bigger.

      The first, that insecure guys overcompensate and try to act tough, is old news. Right? This is the standard trope of the bully who's actually a whimp. The guy who doesn't know who is who drinks too much. The locker-room guys who talk about all the girls they've fooled around with, but haven't.
      The findings here of "guys try to act tough if people say they aren't" is old news.

      The second point is very important. That conservative responses--supporting war, bashing gays, driving a big car for no reason--are equated with acting tough, is a big problem for liberals. This is the gender gap staring us in the face, and it shows why we need to get back some of that Kennedy confidence we used to have.

      If we learn here that conservative political positions are associated with "toughness" or "maleness"--while that's laughable--it's also a real problem.

      Politics, Music, Media, DC, Film, Life, Art, Boston, and Iggy Pop all at The Passenger

      by graham2005 on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 07:29:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Now we know how to counter it (none)
        We show that conservative positions are "Fake Tough", not "True Tough".

        We show that conservatives are like the bulldog in the Kashi ad:  He looks big and tough, but it's all hot air.  "All show, no go."

        That's what we do.  

        That's why Paul Hackett did so well in OH-02.  He wasn't afraid to be a genuine tough guy.  And genuine tough guys say what they mean and mean what they say, with no apologies.

    •  Hmmmmmmmm (none)
      Shouldn't it be BIG TRUCKS and HUMMERS? I certainly see a lot of soccer mom's in SUVs....including my wife....All I get is the tiny 1990 Toyota much for my masculinity.

      Howard Dean for President of the United States of America

      by pseudomass on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 07:44:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hot moms (none)
        I love seeing the super-hot West End of Richmond, VA poolmoms prance out of their huge SUVs down around Libbie and Grove like little birds landing.

        They're just so hot.  Totally am willing to buy my wife a big Tahoe.  Obviously, only as long as she's hot and slender.

        1.6 soldiers a day so that this guy can be the new Diem.

        by LongIsland4Clark on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:43:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Is the cure (4.00)
    reverse psychology?

    If vulnerable men could be given some masculine enhancing positive feedback, might they stop following the Pied-Pipers of the Crazy so-Called Conservative Wing?

    Quick! Let's put together the "How to" manual and get this show on the road!!

    •  "Masculinity for Dummies"? (none)

      *Springsteen for President*

      by hrh on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 05:07:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  As a straight white male, (4.00)
      who, perhaps because he was raised almost exclusively by strong women, lacks this masculinity-threatening over-compensation impulse, I can state unequivocally from the anecdotal evidence of my 30+ years with interaction with other men:


      And you can throw in the male obsession with watching sports as well as a nother component in dealing with not-feeling-manly-enough-itis.

      The solution?  Wish I knew.  

      Impeachment is not an option. It is our moral obligation.

      by Republic Not Empire on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 05:29:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My friend is a typical Republican (none)
        He's 28, drives a dodge truck, which has never towed anything and the only thing it has hauled is my stuff when I borrowed it to move.  He paid someone else to move him.  He works in IT, constantly whines about taxes, has never volunteered for anything in his life and can't stand losing at anything.  All of my friends think that he's locked up tight in the closet because of a strict catholic upbringing.  I agree.
        This study fits him to a tee.

        "The superstitious imaginings of Bronze-age, nomadic goat herders is no way to run a 21st Century society" - Random Fark Poster

        by jdp mn on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 06:43:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Now we just need... (none)
        ...for Dave Barry to pick up on the study. ;)
    •  No it isn't (none)
      if the condition has reached metastasis.
    •  Laugh if you want to (4.00)
      but I think there is something to this.  Some additional questions:  what are what are the childhood experiences and cultural influences that cause some men to feel that their masculinity is under attack? Authoritarian father? No father? Over-controlling mother? the way our schools are organized? Childhood bullying? Over-emphasis on winning and success? Not enough ways for boys in their teens to feel like they are making a contribution? Whatever it is, I'm willing to bet it happens a long time before a man is old enough to buy his first SUV. And it would be good to know what it is, since what hurt these men is hurting us all.
      •  not laughing here!! (none)
        I am mom and step-mom to a total of 4 boys, now aged between 5 and 14 (15 in 2 months!) One of my primary goals in parenting is to help them grow into strong, confident men without the weird gender hang-ups that lead to SUV buying and Bush-suppporting.  

        One thing I've noticed is that the kids my 2 boys meet through homeschooling activities tend to be less rigid in gender-roles.  In fact, you can always tell which kids have just left school to be homeschooled, because they want to play girls vs boys games, while the kids who have been home longer (or like my kids, have never been to school) are happy to all play together.

      •  My guess? (none)
        Emphasis on the guess, here:

        Peer pressure and competitive sports. Go watch a youth football game - half the time you'll see both language and attitudes that point straight at testosterone overload, or at least a wish for it. Tell kids they need to be a man's man, and they'll believe it. Indoctrinate it enough, and they'll always be trying to live up to that steriotype, whether they conform to it inside or not.

        Me? I got out of that young, and went into music instead. Best choice I, and my supportive parents,  ever made.

  •  Surprised that were were no other increases (none)
    So besides SUVs, no other cars had this correlation... hmm, not even pickup trucks?

    I voted for John Kerry and all I got was this lousy sticker...

    by diplomatic on Mon Aug 08, 2005 at 11:11:21 PM PDT

    •  What about pickup trucks? (none)
      What about motorcycles?

      Also let's be careful and not assume that JUST BECAUSE you drive an SUV it means you fit the profile of the study.  Surely there are exceptions.  My first car was a Jeep.  I needed something big enough to carry canvases.

      But I sold it and now I don't even need a car because I'm moving out of L.A.  Woohoo, I don't have to worry about those crazy gas prices.

      p.s. yes, 2nd post since I messed up the other one. deal with it ;)

      I voted for John Kerry and all I got was this lousy sticker...

      by diplomatic on Mon Aug 08, 2005 at 11:14:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Now I'm talking to myself (4.00)
        This is my cue to take a break.

        I voted for John Kerry and all I got was this lousy sticker...

        by diplomatic on Mon Aug 08, 2005 at 11:15:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Motorcycles are different (none)
        Speaking as a Motorcyclist, I can assure you that this doesn't fit within the mold.

        Motorcycle Consumer News (a non-sponsored publication) does the "why do you ride" reader poll every so often and the answers are unbelievably diverse.

        Feeling "free" was a dominant theme, though, not feeling "powerful," as is the case with SUV drivers.

        IMHO, motorcycles fuel the "rebel" "outsider" craving, not the "power" craving.

        It's a *partial repeal of the First Amendment,* not a "flag burning" amendment.

        by MRL on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 07:47:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I find all these stereotypes rather unproductive (none)
          when it comes down to it.  I know many Democrats who drive SUVs...

          I voted for John Kerry and all I got was this lousy sticker...

          by diplomatic on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 08:05:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  there are exceptions to everything (none)
            I'm the first to admit that an SUV can come in handy in a number of ways. Sometime in the not-too-distant future, if I'm ready for a new car and there's a really good, affordable hybrid engine SUV out there (I think the jury's still out on the Escape hybrid), I may well get it.

            I drive a MINI Cooper S, get very good mileage (as long as I watch my lead foot), and it can hold a surprising amount of cargo. But I also have an `87 Toyota pickup for the trips to Lowe's or Home Depot for lumber and drywall and such...

            ...Freedom is on the march. Straight to the gas chamber. this is infidelica...

            by snookybeh on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 08:19:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  True (none)
            Like Howard Dean, e.g.

            There are also many different reasons for driving SUV's.

            Its easy to fall into the stereotyping, though, sitting in 90 degree heat in the city of Chicago.

            Tough to think of any good reason -- democrat or republican -- to drive an SUV here.

            P.S.  Some Democrats have machismo complexes too and express this in their choice of automobile/truck.

            It's a *partial repeal of the First Amendment,* not a "flag burning" amendment.

            by MRL on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:33:20 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Agree.. (none)
          With a motorcycle you have to have a...  certain minimal degree of competence that's not required to drive an SUV.  Anyone who's knows how to drive can more or less operate an SUV(we wont discuss parallel parking, though).  But take someone who's never rode a motorcycle and put them on even a midsize bike and there's at least a 90% chance they'll drop it the first time out.  Can't drive manual?  Don't know how to operate a clutch?  Then you've got some learning to do.  

          Although, doctors/lawyers who have never rode a bike prior to age 45 then buy a Harley(the only brand they'd even consider) and tow it everywhere on a trailer behind their SUV...  these guys fit the mold to a T.  

          I'm so metal I have the unlisted Number of the Beast.

          by MjrMjr on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 10:42:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Guys with Motorcycles.. (none)
        despite the obvious freudian stuff, maybe motorcycles are more 'romantic/rebellious' and seem to be about attracting certain girls whereas SUVs and pickups are about proving how tough a guy is to other men ....(?)
        I don't drive at all-I take the city bus/taxi or walk-so I don't relate at all to the whole American Car Obsession. When I was growing up in the 70s my parents had lots of expensive car problems so I always had an entirely negative view of them-still do!
    •  I wonder if they included Monster Bigwheel trucks (none)
      in their list of car choices. (Probably not.)

      Hell, I probably would have chosen that one.

  •  Iraq the Result of Little Penis Syndrome? (4.00)
    I guess I'm not surprised.  It had to have been something after all...  I just didn't realize there were so many of them - should have known from all the TV commercials the enlargement industry can afford...
    •  Another theory: War = testosterone rush in leaders (4.00)
      This theory about war was proposed by quantum philosopher Robart Anton Wilson, I believe. He suggested that war was often fomented by middle-aged men, to subconsciously soothe a lack of testosterone, so they could feel they were reversing the fading of their masculinity.

      Interesting how war always kills the young soldier first, isn't it?

      "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

      by jbeach on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:12:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Another interesting Wilson theory... (none)
        Is his theory of progressive disorientation, whereby in any hierarchy (government, business, families) the longer the person at the top stays at the top the less he/she knows what the fuck is really going on because everyone they come into contact with is looking for one of two things:

        To curry favor or advantage in some way... or... to avoid or escape punishment.

        So the ones at the top have a small group they come into contact with and they presumably trust, and they are fed a constant diet of bullshit by this group to achieve one or both of the goals indicated above.

        You think Saddam Hussein really had a clue as to what was going on ground level in Iraq? Over 30 years...

        How about Jack Welch of GE? Over 30 years...

        And with his pathetically limited intelligence to begin with, how 'bout ol' Dub-Ya? 'Nuff said IMHO.

        There is something wonderful in seeing a wrong-headed majority assailed by truth. -John Kenneth Galbraith

        by general tso on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 08:30:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And did I forget to mention... (none)
          Many of our very long-in-the-tooth tenured members of Congress?

          There is something wonderful in seeing a wrong-headed majority assailed by truth. -John Kenneth Galbraith

          by general tso on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 08:33:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  That's actually not from RAW (none)
          Not to say that RAW isn't a philosopher in his own whacked-out way, but the first person I read write rigorously about hierarchy distorting information channels was the liberal philosopher Karl Popper. The book I linked there should be required reading, IMO (and I've annoyed the bejeezus out of half my friends trying to get them to read it). Karl Popper was a liberal, in the strict sense of the word, and spent the darkest days of World War II holed up in his flat in London writing the two volumes of Open Society and Its Enemies. In it he undertakes a defense of liberalism and delivers denunciations of those he viewed as the major anti-liberal philosophers throughout history, from Plato to Hegel to Marx. It is so good reading, especially when you consider the historical context; it's clear that Popper wasn't sure if Liberalism could survive tide of Totalitarianism, and at points you get the impression that he didn't know if he was writing for his contemporaries or for readers on the other end of what looked like a new Dark Age.

          Nobody lends money to a man with a sense of humor -- Peter Tork, "Head"

          by Field Marshall Stack on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:16:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I firmly believe that Bush's entire life... (none)
      is about trying to prove that his dick is bigger than his dads.

      "The Klingon's words are unimportant and we do not hear them." - Dr. Leonard 'Bones' McCoy

      by mlharges on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 06:32:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  this is no big surprise (4.00)
      even george carlin put it well back in 1990 when he talked about bush 41.

      "what is war? it's nothing more than a biiiiiiiig prick-waving dick fight. in this case, saddam hussein questioned the size of george bush's dick."

      Do it GREEN, know what I mean?

      by SonofFunk on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 06:46:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hitler, as an extreme example (4.00)
      apparently had some very weird psycho-sexual problems (which historians can't really prove, of course) but could go a long way in 'explaining' him.
      He was definitely abused as a middle-class small-town child. (Overbearing totalitarian father, extremely religious mother who abbetted and enabled the father, neither showed any warmth, physical and psych abuse, etc.). Back in 1900 Bavaria this wasn't considered "abuse" but only "strict". When you add Adolph's almost 100%certain monorchidism (one testicle), you have the classic inferior-penis-guy-who-wants-to-prove-how-powerful-he-is syndrome. BTW, The Nazi party originated in Bavaria (Germany's equivalent to our Deep South) recruited the largest percentage by far of supporters/votes from areas of Germany which are culturally and demographically similar to US red states (no surprise).
      I know this has all been said before, but it's good to keep this stuff in mind.
  •  The Masses and Fascism by Ted Glick (none)
     "It is not the task of science to concoct systems and to chase after fantastic dreams of a 'better future', but solely to comprehend development as it really takes place, to recognize its contradictions, and to help those forces that are progressive and revolutionary to achieve victory, to solve difficulties, and to make it possible for human society to become master of the conditions of its existence."

    -- Wilhelm Reich, The Mass Psychology of Fascism

  •  Hate to be a kill-joy (none)
    but, unfortnately, this topic has been diarized a couple times over the past few days.  It's a great subject to explore though!

    "War is the greatest of all crimes; and yet there is no aggressor who does not color his crime with the pretext of justice." Voltaire

    by lostian1 on Mon Aug 08, 2005 at 11:19:21 PM PDT

  •  The Parking Lot study (none)
    Some time back, I remember hearing about a study of people's behavior in parking lots.  When a man was pulling out of a space, if another car waiting for the space was driven by another man, the driver typically took something like 27 seconds to get out of the spot; if the waiting car was driven by a woman, the average time was 7 seconds.  

    If a woman was pulling out of the spot, she pulled out faster for other women than for men, but the difference was marginal, like 9 and 10 seconds respectively.  

    I made the numbers up, but I think I've got the behaviors right.  Funny thing, people and their cars.

    •  I'll cop (none)
      to yelling at other drivers. Stuff like "They're called turn signals, sir! Look into them!"
      How do you take 27 seconds to get out of a parking space?
      •  In Albuquerque (4.00)
        that'll get you shot.

        I give the finger to other drivers, but under the dashboard.

        How lame is that?

        •  Welll... (none)
          I'll yell it with my windows rolled up and cheesy 80's music blaring, so nobody hears me.
          Since there's so many SUVs on the road, it's probably prudent to keep middle fingers where other drivers can't see them.
        •  Circuit City parking lot (4.00)
          Columbia, South Carolina, 2004.  I was pulling into a parking spot and I was going to "pull through" to meander into the next lane to get a slightly closer spot.  This gigantic musclebound ape of a man in a ~1980 Honda Civic pulled in and barricaded me from pulling through.  So I stayed in my spot.


          I was at that moment listening to some Eminem and rapping right along (which, if you knew me, would cause you to collapse into a heap of bone shattering laughter), and I was right in the middle of a particularly, um, visceral bit just as these events were transpiring.

          We got out of our respective cars.

          The ape-man smiled at me and said, "I don't blame you."

          "What?" I asked.

          "For calling me a motherfucker."

          "Wh.. what?" I stammered.

          Then it dawned on me that I had been cursing right along with Em' and the ape-man had read.. my... lips... He was about my height (short) but about three times bigger than me in every other direction, all muscle.  So I mumbled something about listening to Eminem and not meaning to be a dick.  He clapped me on the shoulder, said "That's ok, I'm a motherfucker" and we walked in to Circuit City chuckling about it.

        •  In CA you'd be well advised (none)
          to use that approach!

          Non-confrontational is good.  I should try it sometime.

          Speaking of which, someone claimed I rode your coattails the other day and if you think I did I apologize, but I wasn't really trying to be contentious (with you), I just trying to get people to think a little.  I hope you weren't offended.



          by Bob on Mon Aug 08, 2005 at 11:54:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I see this behavior (4.00)
    all the time. Actually, there were days when my boyfriend was unemployed and I was supporting us, that he would start acting really uber-macho. It got really old. Finally I pointed it out. He seemed surprised, but realized that he was actually trying to compensate and act more manly to make himself feel better (he was raised in a pretty traditional family, so he was under the impression that it was his "job" to support the little lady...I told him it was our job to support each other).

    It took some time, but he finally stopped acting like a macho shit.

    •  boyfriend's party ID (none)
      Is your boyfriend a Republican?

      You tell me that it's gospel, but I know that it's only church--Tom Waits

      by Flagstaff Ian on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:14:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh god no (none)
        I wouldn't date a Republican. EVER!

        He's actually pretty progressive...his brothers are both in the military and therefore vote Repug, but they are about to come to college where we live, so hopefully I'll be able to influence them a bit. They are reasonable, they've just been temporarily brainwashed. One of his brothers was really anti stem cell research until a 15 min. conversation with me last X-mas, and now he's supportive of it. So, they are putty...

        They were just brought up by a really traditional (what I call old-fashioned) family...Dad works, Mom doesn't...Mom cooks, cleans, etc. Dad fixes stuff and mows the lawn. So he'd like to be able to support me and he's one of those guys that gets a bit uncomfortable that he can't because he feels like that's expected of him. He'll get over that though. We've been together almost 4 years and each year he lets go a bit more. It helps that he has a job now...I think it was more that he was feeling inadequate as a person...and that he spent 60 grand getting a degree and then couldn't find a job that put it to use for 2.5 yrs after he graduated.

        •  Although one time (none)
          when we got in a big 2 years ago, he told me he was so pissed at me he felt like voting Republican just to get back at me.

          That fight lasted a while. LOL

          I didn't talk to him for like a week! He came back begging for forgiveness...I made him swear he'd never even think of that as an option again. How could anyone be so mad at their girlfriend that they would actually vote for people who want to destroy everything that this country stands for? I mean, that's just ridiculous!

        •  Are you sure about that? (none)
          A little bird told me you said something like this recently:

          "for a republican his body isn't too bad...put a bag over his head and I may watch"

          And that was in reference to Jeff Gannon!!

          Tsk, tsk Elise...
          Caught RED handed (sort of speak)

          ok that doesn't qualify as a date... but still...oh the shame.

          I voted for John Kerry and all I got was this lousy sticker...

          by diplomatic on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:06:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  LMAO (none)
            I did say that...I said I'd watch, not date. Although I suppose that would be a little like one of the guys here saying they'd watch Ann Coulter...wouldn't it.

            EW! Now that I read it that way...I must have been in a really pervy mood earlier! I am ashamed...<hangs head>.

            Okay, I'm still laughing...that Ann Coulter thought really grossed me out.

  •  Great Diary (none)
    Mike...if the Cornell study has been mentioned before, I've not seen it - though there have been some interesting posts on the psychology of the uber right...

    I wonder what a follow up study on sexual preference would show...perhaps these guys protest too much because secretly they' know, like Karl Rove?

    "Every violation of truth is not only a sort of suicide in the liar, but is a stab at the health of human society." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

    by hopesprings on Mon Aug 08, 2005 at 11:53:26 PM PDT

  •  a great detail about this study (4.00)
    Instead of asking subject about their masculinity and relying on their unreliable, they prodded the masculinity itself and watched the effect. Beautiful.

    Answer to diplomatic's question above: no, motorcycles do not necessarily arise from the same syndrome. They lead to exhilaration that no four-wheel vehicle ever could. They roar and turn like felines. GRRRRR. :O) (I used to ride until I got engaged, and not because I had anything to prove to anybody; I just plain loved it, and miss it a great deal.)

    Big SUV? Little wee-wee.

    they displayed more homophobic attitudes, tended to support the Iraq War more and would be more willing to purchase an SUV over another type of vehicle

    These are all much more associated with Republicans, including the ownership of an SUV. Therefore... Republican? Little wee-wee. :O)

    AHAHAHA, I love it!!!

    P.S. Despite spending too much time here, I didn't see this subject diaried by anyone else. Thanks for bringing it up.

    •  Motorcycles (4.00)
      are dangerous for real. We don't like the real danger - we like the fake danger! Plus, unlike a bike or teenty hybrid, in a really giant SUV nobody else can see you whacking off on the freeway. So it's functional as well. Which is nice.
      •  I thought I was the only one (none)
        who did that.
      •  To clarify . . . (none)
        When you say "motorcycles are dangerous for real" I assume that you are not making any value judgment, right?

        You aren' saying (are you?) that motorcycles are inherently dangerous or that motorcyclists are dangerous drivers or anything, right?

        What you are really saying is that inconsiderate "cagers" frequently don't know where they are going and drive so negligently so as to cause the majority of all motorcycle accidents, right?

        If that's what you are saying, then, yes, I agree -- people who can't drive cars well make riding a motorcycle comparatively more dangerous then if ya'll drove properly (apologies for the y'all -- kinda odd coming from a Michigander / Chicagoan).

        It's a *partial repeal of the First Amendment,* not a "flag burning" amendment.

        by MRL on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 07:55:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  asdf (none)
          I mean accidents involving motorcycles tend to be far more damaging to the bike rider than passengers in automobiles, regardless of the cause or severity of the accident.
          •  Don't look now . . . (none)
            Don't look now, but you are making an argument for SUVs.

            It's a *partial repeal of the First Amendment,* not a "flag burning" amendment.

            by MRL on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 08:25:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Nonono! (none)
              Those fucking things roll! W/no head protection. Lame!!
              & not the only vehicular alternative to road rash either. Tiny sports cars can be quite fun too, maybe leave something more suitable for an open coffin affair.

              Plus, I drive a Ranger (not tiny, but not jacked up either) & when I'm behind an SUV at a red light, I do sit there wondering if I'll get decapitated if I get rear ended. I worry about decapitation a lot, & that's one of the few times it's kind of justified. I really don't ever need the nasty paranoid imaginings to be justified.


    •  I like danger (4.00)
      I put a sticker on my bike that has a "W" with a red cross-out circle.
    •  LOL! (4.00)
      They lead to exhilaration that no four-wheel vehicle ever could. They roar and turn like felines. GRRRRR. :O)

      DrReason, meet the BMW M3...  


      Now if only we had an Authbahn here.

      •  Nice, but . . . (none)
        Meet the 1200GS Adventure:

        And the R1200 ST:

        It's a *partial repeal of the First Amendment,* not a "flag burning" amendment.

        by MRL on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 08:01:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  still, not quite... (4.00)
        that's a bitchin' car, all right, but it's still not the same as a motorcycle. Four wheels on the ground and all that. Driving 40 mph on a bike is still more exhilirating than driving 100 mph in a car.

        I drive a MINI Cooper S, and most people are surprised at its speed and strength (and I haven't even gotten the expensive engine mods - yet, anyway). And that's part of the reason I got it - I love to drive fast, love how I can take curves without touching my brake.

        And I could care less that some SUV- or truck-drivin' dudes think it's a "girl car." (Besides, chix diggit ;-P...)

        I agree about the Autobahn. Don't the highways in Montana have no speed limit?

        ...Freedom is on the march. Straight to the gas chamber. this is infidelica...

        by snookybeh on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 08:06:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No way! (none)
          There's nothing like the purr of an inline 6.


          How's the reliability been on the Mini?  They got the quirks worked out?

          •  I'm very happy with it... (none)
            the problems they've had have been pretty minor, and seem to have been eliminated since the first one rolled out in `02. Mine's an `04, and the only issue my model had was some kind of exhaust system monitor thingamajig with the computer system, which they notified me about by mail, and which I had taken care of during my first oil change. It wasn't a noticeable "problem" anyway.

            I don't think of them as "quirks," I think of them as "charisma." ;-)

            ...Freedom is on the march. Straight to the gas chamber. this is infidelica...

            by snookybeh on Wed Aug 10, 2005 at 10:37:07 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I always thought..... (4.00)
    ... SUV owners were compensating for something. Is isn't is uncanny that you only 'Support the Trrops' decals on SUVs?

    It takes a real man to drive a hybrid!

    "When the Nationals took over the NL East lead in early June, Frank Robinson should have declared: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED"

    by crazymoloch on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:09:55 AM PDT

  •  This is hilarious (none)
    I wonder what is it that is threatening the masculinity of these men.

    What is threatening their masculinity? Events on a daily basis? From early childhood? I mean this may be a loaded study, but assuming that the conclusions are correct.

    Perhaps there are internal threats as well.

    President Bush...A man of extraordinary vision and brilliance approaching to genius, he can't get anyone to notice.

    by The Zipper on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:14:52 AM PDT

    •  Before we decide that (4.00)
      I wonder what is it that is threatening the masculinity of these men.

      it would be interesting to discuss just what is meant by 'masculinity' in this context. My sense is that it's dominance and the entitlement to dominate. Others might have a different notion. I know for a fact that people have extremely different notions of what is meant by masculinity.
      That said, this is what the career of Rush Limbaugh and his cottage industy of clones has been about. Decades of stoking and enflaming a sense of lost entitlement and the fear that comes with loss of control and blaming that loss on everyone not white and male and conservative.

      "...the definition of a gaffe in Washington is somebody who tells the truth but shouldn't have." Howard Dean

      by colleen on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 07:19:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What is threatening (none)
      is the awful economy. Guys are still defined primarily by what they do, and Wal-mart doesn't do it for anyone. As males are increasingly stripped of opportunity to do meaningful work the macho culture has taken flight. Just look at the African American and Hispanic cultures - Macho is a very big thing.
      •  Does this mean the imminent return... (none)
        of Beau Brummel styles and dandy foppish wear?

        Maybe Seinfeld was wrong about the poet "puffy" shirt, after all?

        KRAMER: Yeah, see, I think people want to look like pirates. You know, it's the right time for it.. to be all puffy, and devil-may-care..

        People in Eurasia on the brink of oppression: I hope it's gonna be alright... Pet Shop Boys: Introspective

        by rgilly on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 08:53:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  two things (none)
      Women's liberation, coupled with stagnant wages.  While I generally support women's rights, an unfortunate downside of women in the workplace is that men have lost their male identity as provider of the household.  Futher contributing to this loss is that wages for working class Americans aren't growing, making working men feel as if they are worthless to their family.

      There's a conservative book that came out this year about how to be a better husband.  The author's advice was to become a warrior, an obviously masculine identity.  It's become a hit in the conservative world.

      Ultimately we need a new sense of male identity and masculine affirmation.  It's rare to see any kind of tv show, for example, that celebrates men.  Our culture instead often does the opposite, mocking or villifying men with shows like Desperate Housewives or Sex in the City.

      A gaffe in Washington is when you tell the truth and people act surprised.

      by hotshotxi on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 08:16:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  They've been stiffed (none)
      Susan Faludi's Stiffed is actually all about that. Great thesis. Unfortunately, as a book it's kind of rambling and dull -- not as readable as Backlash and therefore (I think) didn't really take off in pop culture.
  •  Add Chris Hitchens to the War Pimps list (none)
    still waiting for his apology for all those scary pre-March 19, 2003 lies.

    To thine own self be true - W.S.

    by Agathena on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 12:41:27 AM PDT

  •  He should test their I.Q.'s as well (none)
    Now, if we can equate low I.Q.'s to these same dickheads, that would confirm what I have  believed for some time.  The dumber you are, the more likely you are to support Bush, Republicans, SUV's, bans on same-sex marriage, etc....
    •  You bet. (none)
      This would be a terrific study.  I've been encouraging young college students to run studies such as this, correlating political affiliation and IQ, for years.  This would be killer.  I have no doubt what they'll find!  If this data has already been collected separately, I suppose it may be a question of getting access to it, which may be tricky.  Otherwise, it's a pretty simple analysis.

      "Force always attracts those of low morality." -- Albert Einstein

      by eyeswideopen on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:12:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  In my high school (none)
      the people with the highest IQ's were the MOST likely to get shoved in lockers.

      So, I don't see this connection.

      Although, I bet Rush has a very high IQ.

  •  Hold the phone, Bessie. (4.00)
    I'm not buying this study.  For a couple of reasons.

    First, this is a conference presentation.  Granted, presenting at the American Sociological Association's national conference is a great honor, but the simple fact of the matter is that as of right now, this finding has not been subjected to the extensive peer-review process.

    Had he gone through this process, someone surely would have noted this: the undergraduate population of an Ivy League college is not a fucking representative sample.  Wellington Mayflower Thoroughbred IV and the other Sigs in Ithaca have little in common with Joe Sikzpak over at the Prairie Schooner in Bloomington.  Replicate this finding with a truly representative sample, then I'll raise an eyebrow.

    Also, the conclusion of this study does not suggest that a small penis leads to cro-magnon political behavior (or at least it had better not - it is a sociology paper).  Rather, it suggests a threat to a man's masculinity.  My guess would be that this threat can be traced to the very real economic conditions and changing gender relations that have occurred with the maturation of monopoly capitalism combined with a hyper-masculinized public relations machine that throws these tensions into stark relief.

    This is a nice piece of headline grabbing academic work.  It is not, however, necessarily a good piece of just plain ol' academic work.  Methinks Mr. Willer will have a rough go of it with his colleagues come the Q&A for his panel.

    "Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral." -Paulo Freire

    by wobblie on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 01:20:40 AM PDT

    •  ahhh (none)
      but wouldn't the ivy league population be representative of those Repubs in Congress? I mean, Bush did go to Yale...

      I kid, of course.

      •  Didn't we already know all this??? (4.00)
        Though I don't think the study purports to show any correlation between these behaviours and penis size, it's conclusions are fairly predictable.  The behaviours cited are atavistic, after all, like the apes that shriek and pound their chests to show their dominance.  

        While I cannot but agree with Wobblie that changing power relations between both genders and races have created palpable anxiety for a certain class I think it is also true that excessive machismo is done more for other men in one's peer group than anyone else.

        I must however take exception, however, to Wobblie's outmoded and somewhat resentful characterization of the ivy league population as being comprised of "Wellington Mayflower Thoroughbred IV" types as opposed to "Joe Sikspak" type.  The very game is to out Sixpack each other, to prove that they are not effete or elite.

        Speaking as someone from a working class neighbourhood in Brooklyn, neither of whose parents finished high school, and who went to an Ivy League school (On full scholarship - we could never have afforded it otherwise) I suspect your average Ivy League class is far more diverse than you allow.  But then I went to University thirty years ago - and maybe it's got worse rather than better in those intervening decades.

        "the fools, the fools, they've left us our Fenian Dead" (Padraig Pearse - Gay Revolutionary)

        by padraig pearse on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 02:46:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  well i went to cornell (none)
      and i saw as cro-magnon behavior and idiocy as i've seen at many other colleges. it may be an ivy, but it's very big, half publically funded, and much less selective than other elite ivy's.

      Do it GREEN, know what I mean?

      by SonofFunk on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 07:02:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Gotta object to you there... (none)
      As an Ivy Leaguer myself, just have to correct some MAJOR misperceptions with some cold hard facts...

      1.  The majority of Ivy League students graduated from public high schools
      2.  The VAST majority of Ivy League students (over 80 percent at most schools) receive some form of financial aid
      3.  The Ivy Leagues, out of noblesse oblige, or liberal guilt, who knows, bend over backwards more than any schools I can think of to diversify their student bodies beyond Prince Beef Wellington the Third
      4.  Cornell, in particular, is the common man's Ivy, largely b/c it is half-State school.  Yes, that's right -- half of the programs at Cornell are actually State-funded, and in-State students get the usual advantages when applying or attending CU.  (That's why, whenever we played them in Football, we'd always chant "SUNY-Ithaca"!)
      •  Beyond that (none)
        Cornell is the state agricultural school.  Plenty of kids from my Upstate farming community went there.
      •  correction (none)
        It's not half a state school.  Undergrad enrollment in the state-assisted colleges is only around a third of total undergrad enrollment.  Those colleges are not state schools in the tradition sense either.  They receive a good deal state funding, but they're damn expensive and they're not controlled by Albany.

        The proportions aren't important anyways.  Arts & Sciences and Engineering (which are private) total 7000 undergrads, more than most other Ivies have, and you'd find the profiles of their students to be very similar to their "elite Ivy" counterparts.  Same goes for the faculty, although admittedly, in the arts and humanities they're not as good as Harvard or Princeton.

        A gaffe in Washington is when you tell the truth and people act surprised.

        by hotshotxi on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 08:34:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Ummm (none)
        Most of the university is private, and those kids going there tend to be be fairly rich.
        •  begging to differ with ya.... (none)
          besides me, you also have an actual Cornell alum ("SonofFunk") telling you how it is up there.  I'd like to see what your definition of "fairly rich" is, or where your statistics are to prove that.  Look, I'm not going to sit here and suggest that Ivy Leaguers are some oppressed minority, but it gets really tiresome to hear the same old "Buffy and Muffy in the Newport house" generalizations about Ivy League schools and their students.  

          Most kids I knew at Penn were on large amounts of financial aid, or their parents put themselves in hock to pay for the tuition.  We all had summer jobs to sock money away, or did work-study during the year to make ends meet.  Maybe I hung out in the wrong crowds, but very few of the kids I knew there were truly "rich".  Most were just middle class, public school kids, who happened to be smart and were willing to work hard.  

          And my original argument still stands:  to discredit this study because it sampled from a population that someone thinks is too hoity-toity to be taken seriously is unfair stereotyping.  Besides, male insecurity clearly knows no socio-economic bounds.  

      •  Points are well taken (none)
        But I still stand by my contention that the undergraduate population of an Ivy League University is not a representative sample that can be generalized from.  Hell, considering that only 25% of the population actually graduates from college, I don't think the undergraduate population of any college or university is a valid sample.

        My apologies for the gross over-generalization of Cornell students.  Although admit it, you liked the Wellington Mayflower Thoroughbred IV reference, didn't you?

        "Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral." -Paulo Freire

        by wobblie on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:15:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Wow, how I wish (none)
    i had posted this...awesome!
  •  it's funny (none)
    how we need studies to point out the obvious.
  •  I understand (4.00)
    I am like those guys in the study, except I express my "macho" image a bit differently.

    Here are some of the ways I act macho when I am threatened:

    1. I attempt to solve harder mathematics problems.

    2. I master yet another mathematical software package

    3. I learn another javascript or html trick

    4. I learn yet another yoga pose; preferably one that requires some upper body strength

    5. I wear a sleeveless shirt and add some pull-ups to my workout.

    6. When I talk about how good of a senator Barbara Boxer is, I also point out that she is attractive too.  :-)
  •  I would like to note that I drive (4.00)
    a '94 Toyota Corolla.

    Now, that's a man's car.

    •  Not nearly as manly as a Honda Insight (4.00)
      One of the smallest cars on the road...could be flattened by a huge SUV as if it was only a speedbump.  Who's more manly, the chump who drives around in a huge SUV thinking "haha, I can just roll over the traffic", or the person who throws caution to the wind and drives a small car with nothing but his own driving prowess to keep him safe?  ;-)

      In Britain they admit to having royalty. In the United States we pretend we don't have any, and then we elect them president.

      by Asak on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 04:47:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Real temerity (4.00)
        is riding a bicycle during rush hour on the streets of Boston.
      •  i saw a very common billboard earlier this year (none)
        showing, i think a jeep, climbing up onto the roof of the car in front of him while the car driver looked back in horror.

        the caption, in big manly capital letters was something like "a revolution is born", and i thought to myself "yeah, enough of these billboards go up, maybe something will finally snap in the public consciousness and we'll have a revolution. probably a little different than the big corporations intended.

        Do it GREEN, know what I mean?

        by SonofFunk on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 07:07:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Just like in Somalia... (none)
          all the trucks and SUVs will be turned into "technicals"...the internal security forces will be hard-pressed to put down the heartland rebellions.

          Greetings from The Humungus! The Lord Humungus! The Warrior of the Wasteland! The Ayatollah of Rock and Rolla!

          Monster Garage is their video bible and people in Pennsyltucky are wanting to put their stashed away Korean War surplus recoiless rifle anti-tank weapons on their Ford Super Dutys...just biding their time...

          People in Eurasia on the brink of oppression: I hope it's gonna be alright... Pet Shop Boys: Introspective

          by rgilly on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 10:04:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Drove a Datsun 510 hand-me-down back in the day (none)
        And it was a very good day. :)

        Wilbur from Charlotte's Web turned out okay, and he was just some pig. :)

        by cskendrick on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 07:24:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Nah (none)
        For style, you gotta go old school. My first car was a 1971 dusty rusted WV Beetle. Paid $300 for it in 1997, and they only wanted that much because it had a $250 stereo. I basically bought a stereo, and the scrap metal around it.

        The best part was finding parking at LAX airport and other such crowded lots. When there's a huge line of cars backed up because one guy is waiting for a spot, I could go around them all and take the spot 4 cars down.

        My next car after that was a 1987 Honda Prelude. Very small, and a decent kick under the hood, too.

      •  Well, asak, now I have to buy (none)
        a Mini Cooper to prove I'm manlier.

        That'll show ya!

  •  The size of things (4.00)

    On our first date, my future husband looked me over just before we went out the door and asked, "Aren't you forgettting your purse?"

    "Uh, um, no. I've got my DL, my Visa card, a twenty and a handful of change in my pockets." (I could never go anywhere without "dimes for the phone" thanks to my mom).

    "Oh, wow! That's great!" he beamed at me.

    I thought it was an odd question for a first date, so I asked him about his response to my answer a few weeks later.

    "I"ve found out one thing about women," he said shyly (all of 24 years old), "And that is that the bigger the purse, the less confident the woman. I mean, they carry EVERYthing in there. And they check on it constantly. And they freak out if they can't find something they KNOW they put in there. And they're always digging frantically and dumping everything out to find ID or a comb or lipstick. Women who can't go anywhere without big purses full of whoknowswhat are always worried about everything."

    "Ummm. So not even having a purse...?"

    "My kind of woman. You only carry what you need."

    "And guys? Got any bits of wisdom about guys?"

    "Look at the tires. Bigger the tires..." he shook his head and laughed. (He drove an old VW van with "steal your face" stickers in the back window.)

    I had to agree. We still laugh about the truth of this simple observation. (And NO--this does not apply to women going anywhere with children).

    We've been together for 23 years and celebrated our 9th wedding annniversary (which we both forgot) yesterday.

    •  Congrats on you anniversary! (none)
      It was our anniversary yesterday too. (13th)  When we were datting my husband had a Citation and then moved up to a Nissan Sentra. Not the cars of an over-compensator. :) We now have a Tan Honda Minivan. Very sensible.

      If I have to carry a puurse, I like them small.  Just enough room for a small wallet, celll phone, keys, and chap stick. If I can, I like to just hand my husband my ID and take nothing.

      Does the devil wear a suit and tie, Or does he work at the Dairy Queen- Martin Sexton

      by strengthof10kmen on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:07:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Buuuuuuuuut (none)
    how does this explain WOMEN who support the war?

    If a man is standing in the middle of the forest speaking and there is no woman around to hear him ... is he still wrong? - George Carlin

    by AlyoshaKaramazov on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 05:12:55 AM PDT

  •  I can't reference a study (none)
    but I suspect it's due to women being conditioned to expect men to defend them from threat. A president who acts out the macho attitude they expect makes those women feel safe. Never mind that these are the kind of cowboys who pick fights in bars, wouldn't dream of changing a diaper, and think a loud-mouthed bully with no communication skills makes a great ambassador to the U.N. These women can see no farther past their primitive hormonal responses than the men in the study.
  •  Bush in his college cheerleading days (none)
    Hmmm...  Hannity, O'Reilly, Rush, Savage...  and lest we forget, haven't we seen pictures of Chimpy in a cheerleading outfit?

    Thoughts from Connecticut - Recommended Reading - Growing Up Red

    by ctsteve on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 05:46:25 AM PDT

  •  Makes sense to me (none)
    My off-the-wall wingnut work colleague is a 5'5", 39-year-old, unmarried, white male, who wears too-tight pants on his strangely paunchy, skinny body.  He also has a weird stammmer or stuttering problem.  Issue with masculinity?  I think so.

    "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." - my dad

    by blueinnc on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 05:49:02 AM PDT

  •  So Republican men are very simple people with (none)
    very small penis'?  

    (paraphrasing a line from the Chimpokemon episode of South Park)

    Sometimes that show South Park has all of the answers...

    Reality is just... a point of view - Philip K. Dick; Beautiful thing, the destruction of words. (from Orwell's 1984)

    by LionelEHutz on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 06:06:27 AM PDT

  •  modernity and masculinity? (none)
    This imples that the global rise in religious fundamentalism is driven by a global attack on masculinity.

    (The one thing all fundamentalist religious movements seem to have in common is attacking rights of women as a proxy for empowering men.)

    So what is it about modernity that makes men feel like they are under attack.

    My hypothesis is that it's economic globalization and technology.

    Rrrrrringgg... Time to change the government.

    by Carl Nyberg on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 06:20:01 AM PDT

    •  Civil rights (none)
      Growing up a Gen-Xer in the era of affirmative action, with no real visceral understanding of the struggle for civil rights, there was a pervasive sense among many of my white male peers that they were being blamed and punished for the sins of their fathers.  I think this sentiment persists, and is the source of a lot of simmering rage and masculine insecurity.  
      •  zero-sum competition bad (none)
        I agree that we should advocate for things that uplift all instead of defending systems that create zero sum competition.

        Dems should be advocating for universal health care and vastly improved education.

        But the interest groups don't want to go this route.

        Rrrrrringgg... Time to change the government.

        by Carl Nyberg on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 07:21:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe the Finnish... (none)
          men could explain to the American male what it takes to undergo this transformation.

          Finland has compulsory military service. But their social services can't be beat...

          People in Eurasia on the brink of oppression: I hope it's gonna be alright... Pet Shop Boys: Introspective

          by rgilly on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 09:21:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Excellent point! (none)
        In fact, you are spot on. Interviews w/ conservatives have shown this. I don't remember the source/citation, but RW reasoning goes something like, "The liberuls are trying to say that everything us white guys have ever done for this great country is bad. We killed off the Indians, we lynched blacks, we destroy the environment, we oppress our women, we didn't get enough education, we didn't learn any languages but American, we tried to stop the nazis and the the commies and the A-rabs from taking over, we don't stand up enough to our bosses even though they give us paychecks, and the gawd we pray to is responsible for most of the world's misery. All we were trying to do is support our families and make it in this world."
  •  I feel threated, I must act out (none)

    1. I drive an SUV
    2. I voted for Kerry
    3. I think this war is for oil
    4. I think our leaders lie to us all the time
    5. I played hockey last night and elbowed a guy in the mouth
    6. I have no snappy qoute after my post

    How big is my pennis? whats my IQ?

    do not underestiamte these people or marginalize them, they are winning. while our troops and Iraqis are dying.

    •  It's not about (none)
      the fact that you drive an SUV but... WHY you  drive an SUV.  Do you drive it because you think it makes you look tough?  Because in your SUV no one would dare call you a nancy-boy? Because all the cool kids are?  If not...than I wouldn't worry about the SUV/penis size correlation.

      Why did you elbow the guy during hockey?  Did you do it because someone said you skated like a girl or that you can't grow a beard or something like that or did you do it because hockey is a contact sport and the players have elbows and mouths and sometimes the guys with the mouths just got away with a cheap hooking that sent your team mate to the ice. Because hey, that's just hockey.  Wouldn't worry about the IQ/aggression link. (I have met some dumb hockey players though)

      2-4 you were just being smart, and nothing hotter than smart.

      #6, hey cut yourself some slack, no shame in not being snappy. :)

      I don't think there is anything wrong with men doing traditionally masculine things or if a women does traditionally feminine things. It's just the 'why' part that gets telling.

      Just this girl's opinion.

      Does the devil wear a suit and tie, Or does he work at the Dairy Queen- Martin Sexton

      by strengthof10kmen on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 11:57:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My mom is the sage on the mount.... (4.00)
    She's been saying since the Newt Gingrich days that the Repugs are lashing out b/c they were pissed that Bill Clinton was gettin' it on with a 24-yr old intern and they couldn't get any.  She always tells me that this has been about their "manhood", and apparently she was right.  

    She also says that it's a larger backlash against the growing independence of women in society...(and it's true....whenever this cheezy Philly radio station does their "Is your man cheating on you?" phone call schtick, invariably the guy ends up yelling at the girlfriend "You need to stop watching 'Sex & the City' and start watching 'Desperate Housewives'"  Whenever I hear an insecure man go off on women, they always play the "Sex and the City"'s like it epitomizes strong, independent women who are career-driven, enjoy sex, and feel no hurry to get married by 25.  And they resent it SO much...

    Why else the sudden urge to restrict abortion, birth control, and sex ed?  Why else would Man-on-dog feel the need to write a whole book documenting how women going to work are responsible for the downfall of western society?  Why else do they hate Hillary so much?  

    It's all so what do we do about it?

    •  It is... (none)
      This is all about change, and fear of it.

      Just listen to them talk about things...

      The way to fight this is not to confront, but rather to address the fear of change.  That doesn't mean rolling over... it means highlighting the issue from other directions.

  •  Really nasty ways (none)
    Ways to Assert Machismo

    I was this were 100% satire. It's just not so.

    1. Burn a cross.
    2. Burn a church.
    3. Shoot up a school.
    4. Lynch somebody.
    5. Rape somebody.
    6. Blow up a government building.
    7. Blow up a clinic.
    8. Beat up the wife or girlfriend (or both).
    9. Beat up children (not necessarily one's own).
    10. Prey on children (not necessarily those of other people).

    Serious message

    Secure men don't go rogue and take out their frustrations on the innocent and weak.

    Macho bluster isn't just laughable -- it's dangerous as hell.

    Variation on list above

    Could just as easily include "hijack airplanes and destroy skyscrapers".

    Wilbur from Charlotte's Web turned out okay, and he was just some pig. :)

    by cskendrick on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 07:29:52 AM PDT

  •  I was a male cheerleader in high school... (none)
    I did it with some buddies mainly as a goof and as an excuse to be with the female cheerleaders.  95% of my fellow classmates knew it was a goof and had no problems with it or me.  

    However, there were a couple of guys on the football team (the so-called badasses) who would make a "fag" remark from time to time.  The funny thing is that many years later, three of these so-called badasses are now out-of-the-closet gay.  

    I've since come to the conclusion that much of the gay bashing and testicle swinging out there is really just a way for some people to channel their self-hatred over their own latent homosexualty.

    So, what's the solution?  We obviously need to encourage more wingnuts to come out of the closet.

  •  My husband drove a Festiva (4.00)
    when we first met.  No wonder I was so attracted to him.

    Still am.

    "Forget the myths the media's created about the White House. The truth is these aren't very bright guys."

    by Ret on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 08:03:20 AM PDT

  •  Well that explains Bush... (none)
    Makes you wonder what they did to him in Skull and Bones to make him so over the top GI Joe...
  •  I do think this is a big problem (none)
    Powerlessness is a terrible emotion, and because of the gender roles our society assigns men I think it hits us particularly hard.  Especially working class men who are constantly faced with the threat of losing their job, etc... and are often insecure about their ability to provide for their family anyway.  

    Don't discount the power of rage brought about by feelings of loss of autonomy-- it's one of the emotions that has led to virtually every revolution in the history of the planet.  And it's something that Americans are slowly expressing.  Think about the profusion of movies in the last 10 years like Falling Down, Fight Club, Office Space, and games like Grand Theft Auto III.  We can definitely use this to our advantage, however, because it seems to me that much of this rage is ultimately anger over the declining economic opportunity in the country, although it's being manifested at much more traditional targets (women, gays, minorities, etc...).

    You know what the Midwest is? Young and restless... - Kanye West

    by ChicagoDem on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 08:31:39 AM PDT

    •  Add this just-released movie... (none)
      to the mix:

      Blowing Smoke

      A hypermasculine romp (think David Mamet: cigars, poker, power players) with a twist...

      It did not get major release/studio backing and is now being promoted grassroots-style, via a blog/website and sold via catalog...eventually to be available via download.

      Screenplay is by the writer of "Father of the Bride" and "Father of the Bride II"

      People in Eurasia on the brink of oppression: I hope it's gonna be alright... Pet Shop Boys: Introspective

      by rgilly on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 09:28:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Study confirms the SPITE Vote (4.00)
    Freezerbox: Spite the Vote

    .. average Americans respect viciousness. They are attracted to viciousness for a lot of reasons. In part, it reminds them of their bosses, whom they secretly adore. Americans hate themselves for the way they behave in public, always smiling and nodding their heads with accompanying really?s and uh-huhs to show that they're listening to the other person, never having the guts to say what they really feel. So they vicariously scream and bully others into submission through right-wing surrogate-brutes. Spending time watching Sean Hannity is enough for your average American white male to feel less cowardly than he really is..

    ...This is why [the left] will forever struggle to understand the one overriding mystery of why so many working- and middle-class white males vote against their own best interests.

    I can tell you why. They do so out of spite..
    The wretched truth is that America is an erogenous no man's land. Most white males here (at least the straight ones) have either dismal sex lives or no sex lives at all As bad as this hurts, the pain is compounded every time you expose yourself to the cultural lies that await you at every turn--that is, every waking hour and during deep REM sleep, when the subliminal messages kick in. This wretchedness leads to a desire for vengeance, to externalize the inner famine--it leads directly to the Republican camp.

    Spite-voters also lack the sense that they have any stake in the future of the country... the so-called "Reagan Democrats," know that the country is not theirs. They are mere wage-slave fodder, so their only hope is to vote for someone who makes the very happiest people's lives a little less happy. If I'm an obese 40-something white male living in Ohio or Nevada, locked into a permanent struggle with foreclosure, child support payments and outsourcing threats, then I'm going to vote for the guy who delivers a big greasy portion of misery to the Sarandon-Robbins dining room table, then brags about it on FoxNews. Even if it means hurting myself in the process.

    ..Close to half of this country will support Bush simply to spite that part of America that it sees as most threatened by the Iraq debacle.. It's simple mathematics: Bring down the coastal elite and the single 40-something Ohio salesman might actually matter. And if they're not brought down, but instead remain in a constant state of indigestion over policies that could ruin them at any time? Well, that's still better than nothing..

    If you're miserable, you don't want to be told what's best for you by someone who's correct--it's sort of like being occupied by a foreign army with good intentions. You'd rather fuck things up on your own, something you're quite good at, and bring others down with you.

    Spite voting is mostly a white male phenomenon, which is why a majority of white males vote Republican. It comes from a toxic mix of thwarted expectations, cowardice and anomie that is unique to the white American male experience.

    •  Deadwood... (none)
      Yankton is the equivalent of the "controlling East Coast" elements. Swearingen and his ilk in Deadwood are wanting to maintain their little paradise just the way they have it.

      This battle has been going on since the beginning of the Republic, from the instance those poor Scots-Irish bastards crossed into the Shenandoah and Ohio Valleys, through the Cumberland Gap, into the early West.

      People in Eurasia on the brink of oppression: I hope it's gonna be alright... Pet Shop Boys: Introspective

      by rgilly on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 09:42:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  women in the workforce (none)
    I believe that traditional notions of masculinity (not the only notions, but the pervasive ones in our culture over the last century) are based on dominance and control over woman and children.

    I think the main thing that threatens traditional notions of masculinity is the working woman.  When woman has her own income the man is no longer the master in the same way and can't exert the same kind of control. Woman sometimes supervise men in the workplace, which might also make men feel a bit impotent.  The depressing of middle class incomes, and the subsequent drive of woman into the workforce, is probably what drives a lot of this substitute penis stuff.  It also drives a lot of religious fundamentalism, IMO.  

    An aside: I grew up in Hawaii, where women have been in the workforce for at least a generation longer, maybe because a lot of families are immigrants or came up in the plantation worker culture where you always needed two incomes to get by.  You don't see that overcompensating male thing so much there.  I am not sure whether it's the asian influence, or the fact that Hawaii is a generation further down the line, or what.

    •  It is an irony... (none)
      that modern warfare actually had a part in leading to sufferage for women and their ultimate and permanent integration into the workplace in a meaningful way.

      Men could view this whole thing as liberation, if the society would just let them.

      But it just won't happen.

      People in Eurasia on the brink of oppression: I hope it's gonna be alright... Pet Shop Boys: Introspective

      by rgilly on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 09:45:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Women have always worked- (none)
      Especially in the northeast.  My grandmother had a state pension, my great grand mother owned a boarding house, and my mom was actually the first not to have worked throughout raising her kids.  All of my friends mothers and grandmothers worked or owned property, such as small farms, apartments to rent out, and the industrial North's industry was crammed with female machine operators.  Even in the 1800's industrialization benefitted greatly from female operators (ever heard of the Lowell Mill Girls?)

      Women have always been large producers of consumer goods, from foodstuffs to textiles, garments, and home goods.  Women have alway been a large part of the service industry, teaching, and nursing, and the last twenty years expansion in tradionally male jobs has created a larger pool of innovators in experimental, or new sectors that did not exist prior to the advent of many technologies.

       Would we have a huge tech sector if men were not forced to be more innovative in engineering, or branch out in new frontiers of science?  The increased labor pool sets new demands that creates new sectors.  The balancing act is in allowing innovation to thrive, and providing opportunity for research, creativity, and investment for new ideas.

      The economy sets the demand for labor, and women have always played parts in formal and informal economies.  The big question is whether we are willing to sacrifice a significant portion of our producers and consumers to this idea that women should stay at home.

      Women would just make up a larger part of the untaxable, informal cash economy, however, many would become non-participants in the economy.

      •  educated producers (none)
        the other piece of this is that woman are among the most educated and skilled workers being produced today, if statistics from colleges and grad schools are any indication.  The thought that these most skilled workers would simply abandon the labor marker would be a bad bad thing.

        I think the changes to the composition of the labor market are positive and natural in many ways and I don't expect a return to the dad goes to work mom stays home model.  But I think the authoritarian promise keeper mentality has appeal because some people are finding it hard to let that old (and, as you point out, largely fictional) model go.  And why not?  It is much easier where one's right to dominance is based on gender (or race) alone.  Easier for the dominant any way.    

  •  What does it mean (none)
    When you're wife buys an SUV?  
  •  What does it mean (none)
    When your wife buys an SUV?  
    •  As a female SUV driver... (none)
      albeit, a Jeep Wrangler, which has its own cache far beyond a typical SUV, I bought mine b/c it's a freakin' cool car and it's great for the beach (which I go to a lot) and for off-roading (which I plan to do a lot)

      Clearly, this is not why most women buy SUV's.  Just from my experience in my neighborhood, when I see some hausfrau in a Navigator, it's b/c:

      a.  Her husband thinks it will keep her safer when he's not around to drive her
      b.  She needs something to shuttle the kids around, but her independence and femininity make her shudder at the thought of driving something so "domestic" and frumpy as a minivan.  
      c.  SUV's allow her to drive a luxury brand (Mercedes, Lexus, Lincoln) without sacrificing grocery-shopping and kid-shuttling function.
      d.  She thinks it is safer to drive.

  •  My my my (4.00)
    Dispossession once again. This does not just apply to American men. It also applies to Germans, the Japanese, the Hutus, the Tutsis, etc etc. When people feel dispossessed they become much more territorial. They actually produce more testorone which affects their neurochemistry.

    We can't back down, we aren't programmed this way.

    I would say that in the most extreme cases this could be a thesis that explains how suicide bombers rationalize their acts. They are felt to be utterly demoralized (unmanly) and the only way they can react is to attack and end their life.

    So what do you do about it?

  •  shout out to the ladies (none)
    Shoutin' out to the ladies, I drive a civic.

    You know what I'm talking about. ;)

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