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I've answered the last troll post on a Cindy Sheehan thread.  I've had it with you, and the Republican spin machine trying to tear Cindy down.

It must feel nice to be on the side that attacks grieving mothers as hard as it attacks quadraplegic veterans who hold key senate seats.  Real brave and honorable of you.

But enough of the cheap shots.  I need to address your arguments on their merits.

1. Cindy is disrespecting her son

The premise here is that Casey went to war in full support of the mission.  We don't know that, actually.  Casey is dead and cannot speak for himself.  His mom knew, however.  From what she has said, he supported the war when we attacked Afghanistan, but began to seriously question our efforts when we invaded Iraq and certainly as the occupation dragged out.

But let's say he died believing 100% in what he was doing.  Should we respect that?  Certainly.  Should we continue in Iraq just to "honor" Casey's service?  Well, don't we have to use some other, more objective criteria for determining whether to spend more lives and treasure on this enterprise?  To do less than that is to engage in superstition.  Now, I know many of you right-wing nut cases are into "intelligent design" and other superstitous ruses.  But it's been my experience that superstition makes for lousy policies.  Staying in Iraq doesn't bring Casey back.  And then, there's my mom's admonishment that "two wrongs don't make a right."  Listen to mom.

2. Cindy is "politically motivated."

OK.  What the hell does that mean?  She's not running for office.  She's not profiting from this.  If you think she is, the onus is on you to prove it.  She's politically savvy.  Good for her.  It's her right as an American citizen to speak up for what she believes.  Now why should we be any more critical of Cindy than we are of our own elected and 100% accountable President?  Was the invasion of Iraq and subsequent massive loss of life politically motivated?  I think it is and I don't need to re-state the incredible amount of evidence that backs that up.  You can read the other diaries yourselves.  There's a Downing Street Memo you can start with.

3. Cindy's relatives are against her.

This is my favorite one of all.  Please show me the extended family of in-laws, outlaws, aunts, uncles, teens and tots that are all in complete agreement and harmony with each other and I'm sure it's because they're all dead.  Living relatives are often a source of embarrassment, disagreement, but rarely, accurate information about you or me.  I could give a rip about Cindy's relatives.

4. Cindy is being disrespectful to the President."

Ok all you Bill O'Reilly and John Gibson wannabes. (I mistakenly caught a piece of Gibson's radio show subbing for O'Reilly today.  He attacked a veteran who thought the war in Iraq was wrong.  "What about Saddam Hussein?" Gibson asked.  

The vet replied "We managed to control the Soviet Union for 40 years without invading them and they had nuclear weapons."

How did Gibson respond?  By saying the guy was an idiot and questioning his military credentials.  Gibson, ye of no military credentials whatsover:


Sorry for digressing.  Why should we respect the President?  Millions of you felt no qualms about disrespecting Bill Clinton after he had some sort of sex in the Oval Office with an intern.  Where was the respect for the office five, six years ago?

Well I've got news for all of you.  I have lost all of my respect for a President who would ignore the real threats and enemies to this nation in favor of going after a nation that posed no threat to us whatsoever.

He either did this because he is stupid or because he has other designs and motives in the Middle East that he's just not sharing with the rest of us.  

I was scared shitless on 9/11/01.  I was depressed for weeks about the future of our country.  Now I'm angry because my President told me he'd keep us safe and bring the perpetrators to justice.  No justice has been served.  He started a discretionary war and plenty of young American men and women are dying because of it.  And an entire nation of innocent people is decimated.

I am to respect that?

Hell no.

Originally posted to suzq on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 01:23 PM PDT.


How do you address anti-Cindy trolls

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Comment Preferences

  •  Nice work ... thank you. (none)
    You said it all for me.

    Bring them home. Now.

    by Bexley Lane on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 01:28:19 PM PDT

    •  I know people aren't going to like this (3.89)
      But I just went to a couple conservative blog sites, got banned in five minutes from one, changed proxies, got banned again, changed proxies, got banned again and made a whole mess of things for them.  

      They're on a banning mission right now over there as they grapple with some of the crass and despicable talk of Cindy Shaheen biting them in the ass.  

      I left them with, I am stryker, striker2, chickenhawkdown, gopclosetcase and something else.  You banned me 5 times in one day and I still can break through your walls.  Quit your censorship and I will quit assaulting your site.  I have 150 gmail accounts and can't be in Crawford so you're now my prey.

      One of the posters on actually questioned her "breeding."  I asked him if that were true, then was he also questioning her son's breeding?  His response was that he wasn't going to argue and accused me of being a liberal chest-thumper.  I can't believe I actually out chest-thumped a chest thumper.  It's a strange day indeed.

      "Moral Values Absent Economic Justice Is Poverty of the Soul." - anon.

      by PaulVA on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 01:52:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not meaning to hijack (4.00)
         I don't know if it's been posted somewhere else, but Cindy will be interviewed this hour on CNN.
      •  Yeah, I don't like it... (none)
        Does going onto their sites and inciting them, then, once banned, continuing to create new accounts and harassing them more help?  I'm sure it fills your heart with glee to annoy them, but in the grand scheme, you are no better than those trolls who come over here.  

        It is quite clear from their response to you that they did not care to hear what you were saying or they object to how you said it.  So why the hell did you keep going back?  Do you think that by being abusive you are going to crack through their thick skulls?  Do you think that maybe after that 20th time back the wingnuts will come to their senses and realize you have a point?

        No, what they will do is say how awful us liberals are and they will point to your abuse as the evidence.  They will come over onto our blogs and do the exact same shit.  Good times.  

        This is EXACTLY what's wrong with our whole political system.  Two parties becomes two sides becomes polarity.  Politcal beliefs get turned into fundamental truth inside people's heads and the room for discussion and negotiation is slowly widdled away.  Both sides feeling like they cannot give any ground for fear they'll lose the power they have (and rightly so).

        So please, continue with your ill concieved trolling.  Let's burn the whole thing down and I'll go get my fiddle.

        •  I've had the same thoughts too (4.00)
          But the vacuum the operate in where the wingnuttery feeds onto itself with nobody challenging it is extremely creepy.  

          That is why, under extreme restraint, I approached them with calm logic and appeals to their right-wing emotions and instead of attacking what they said I sought to undermine the foundations of their beliefs.

          "Moral Values Absent Economic Justice Is Poverty of the Soul." - anon.

          by PaulVA on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 04:19:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I haven't been banned (4.00)
        I've been working a few threads over at RedState.  I've been there for a long time without being banned.  The key is to remember we are guests there, so you have to maintain a certain level of respectful language.  They won't listen to someone they think is obnoxious any more than we do.  It is possible to deflate their more obvious fantasies, however, and point out the evasions in their arguments.  It won't change alot of minds, but conservative bubble bursting sure is a fun sport!
        •  What's amazing (4.00)
          Is i got banned when I challenged a wingnut who called Cindy Sheheen the product of inbreeding.  I calmly asked if that was true, then whay does that make her son.  No swearing.  No screaming.  No ALL CAPITAL ATTACKS.  Just that.  And I got banned.

          "Moral Values Absent Economic Justice Is Poverty of the Soul." - anon.

          by PaulVA on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 04:21:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I got banned (none)
            on a Terry Schiavo discussion for suggesting if God's Will was law, America itself is the spawn of Satan for daring to break with the God-sanctioned Divine Right of Kings in the 18th Century.  That post lasted all of five minutes.  They can't handle any kind of dissent from their narrow-minded and intolerant world view so ultimately winding them up won't work.
        •  Ha Ha (none)
          Isn't it funny how conservatives give us shit about being politically-correct, yet they want liberal guests on their blogs to be politically-correct in regards to them? Fucking idiots!

          On a side note, catch "I'm Swiss" by Bill Maher on HBO, funny shit!

          One defeats the fanatic precisely by not becoming a fanatic oneself, but on the contrary by using one's intelligence. -George Orwell

          by dime rip cfh on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 08:40:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I like it (none)
        Keep up the good work.
      •  it's your IP address - it's flagged (4.00)
        You need to change your ip address, otherwise it's flagged and you won't ever be able to get on there.

        click on your start button at the bottom of the screen.  Then click on "run"

        type "CMD" in the window.

        When you get the black box, type:


        hit enter and then after it goes through it's thing, type:


        and hit enter, after a new address is assigned, you can sign up to your heart's content.

      •  Challenge (4.00)
        Can you get them to block AOL IP's? Then most of their participants would be blocked. ;-)

        Beware the everyday brutality of the averted gaze.

        by mataliandy on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 05:46:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I vote asshat (4.00)
    I can't even think of that word without having to restrain a giggle.  But then again, it's been well documented that I have the maturity of a 12 year old.
    •  Correction on Gibson: (4.00)

      ahhh...that feels better.

      He who gives up liberty in exchange for security is deserving of neither

      by joby on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 02:39:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  There's an additional option (4.00)
      Inform each troll that they've just inspired you to make a donation to a progressive cause in their name.

      Remember the BFA troll bats? They were fun.

      Every time you were baited into replying, you had to hit the bat again.

      Of science and the human heart, there is no limit. -- Bono

      by saucy monkey on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 04:47:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Welcoming post...thank you. (none)
  •  Awesome rant (4.00)
    I hope that these idiots look back on their behavior and are ashamed.  If I ever had any doubt that people could justify extremely ugly behavior given enough self-delusion, I don't anymore.  
    •  Nice, but... (none)
      "lost all my respect (for Bush).."???
       Excuse me but,  Bush is the fucking anti-christ. I thought he was just a  Korrupt, Korporatist, sociopathic dumbshit in 2000 but I was wrong. His followers btw, are the forces of darkness and ignorance. Their country is called "Amerika" and that's the country we find ourselves groping through today.
    •  True (none)
      If I ever had any doubt that people could justify extremely ugly behavior given enough self-delusion, I don't anymore.

      ...and they do justify their extremely ugly behavior, but WITHOUT PROFANITY! They're so virtuous and moral, aren't they? What good is it to ban profanity at redstate if those mongrels spew inappropriate libel anyway?

      One defeats the fanatic precisely by not becoming a fanatic oneself, but on the contrary by using one's intelligence. -George Orwell

      by dime rip cfh on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 08:51:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  SuzQ - a shining star (4.00)
    Thank you Thank you and Thank you!!! You said it all.

    My relatives do not agree with me ... hell about ANYFUCKINGTHING. In their eyes, I can't even make Clam Chowder correctly because I'm from "the left coast". Now... I'm a radical because I actually give a shit about the troops and guess what... These Bush Supporters have never moved a finger to see their grandchildren AND they have never SERVED.

    Nice huh?

    The Yellow Ribbon that means you are actually supporting the troops:

    Yellow Police Ribbon used to hold protestors at bay while King George drives past.

    (((((((((((SuzQ)))))))))) great diary.

    They're ASSHATS!

    All men are created equal - some just stick out more.

    by Damnit Janet on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 01:41:50 PM PDT

  •  Great job! (none)
    I think you speak for all of us here in the reality-based community.  Heartily recommended!

    Loyalty to the country always. Loyalty to the government when it deserves it. -- Mark Twain

    by GTPinNJ on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 01:42:29 PM PDT

  •  Look At It This Way (4.00)
    They're scared to death of her.  She stands there bearing witness against them and their lies with 1,846 spectral companions (as of this AM).  Slander artists are always at their most desperate when most afraid, and they are very, very desperate right now, to the point of hysteria.

    Look at how this is being covered.

    "He feels her anguish but insists war must go on."

    As Nixon would say, "How does that play in Peoria?"

    "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

    by JJB on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 01:44:30 PM PDT

    •  Which face is sincere?? n/t (none)
      ...we must stay the course? Why? We haven't transfered enough money to Bush supports yet?
      •  Bush looks like he smelled something (none)

        Cow pie, anyone?

      •  Which face is sincere? (4.00)
        Rhetorical question I hope since;

        George the Holder of the Wands of Alice and Orwell, Protector of the Western Oil Corporation, Prince of Crawdad Turkey farm;

        either just sucked on a lemon,
        was asked to do some "hard work",


        is pissed cause people didn't clap and say how well he just did something (thinking of the F911 scene where he says "Well isn't someone going to say what a good shot that was".  Reminded me of a spoiled petulant 6 year old who demands to be praised for every action (no matter how small or inane).  What was sad was that several voices immeadeately piped up with "Great shot, Wonderful, etc.".....what a bunch of sycophantic asshats he must surround himself with.

        I seem to have lost my nation, I appear to have stepped through the Looking Glass into a "Homeland"

        by mdgluon on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 04:00:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Bush could not handle any feedback... (none)
          he is the most insulated president in history, he is proud of the fact that he does not read newspapers!

          "I am out of touch and proud of it!"
          >>snark quote.

    •  Interesting note on Nixon -- OT kinda (4.00)
      I heard (Ron Reagan, I think said it) that even Nixon went out and spoke with the anti-war protesters early one morning.  This administration is making Nixon look pretty tame.  

      Go Cindy!  

      Watergate wasn't about a break-in, it was about a mentality. Carl Bernstein

      by MarCat on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 04:21:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, He Did (4.00)
        It was during one of the mass demonstrations in DC, and he went out to the Lincoln Memorial at about 2 or 3 AM to talk to the protestors who were there.  It was a snap decision, and the staffers who had to arrange it and accompany him were pretty scared of what might happen - understandably, I think.  He tried making small talk, mostly asking the protestors about their schools' football teams.  The reception he received was respectful, but chilly.  He got very depressed when they didn't respond in a friendly way to what in retrospective was a  rather poignant attempt to relate to them.  Then again, I don't know what the hell he expected.

        "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

        by JJB on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 04:49:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It was rather poignant... (none)
          I really was surprised to hear that he did.  It just shows what a clueless jerk we now have in office.  Even if he can't do it (because he's an idiot), why doesn't Laura?  This makes no sense to me at all.  

          Just one more 'why' on the list of many, I guess.  

          Watergate wasn't about a break-in, it was about a mentality. Carl Bernstein

          by MarCat on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 06:56:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  A Gold Star Mom Was Arrested At a 'Laura' Gig (none)
            'Laura' is not interested in what the Gold Star Moms have to say any more than her asshat dinkie-winkie husband, the Bushiter, does.


            Lefty Limblog - It is time to WIN instead of "Appease and Cringe". Fight the Rethugs!

            by LeftyLimblog on Sat Aug 13, 2005 at 07:21:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  asdf (4.00)
        I can't remember another president who wouldn't have been able to defuse this. Invite her in for a glass of lemonade, let her say her piece (away from the cameras if you want), and send her on her way. P.R. crisis over. I think even GHWB could have managed this. They're just afraid he'll say something dumb-ass and offensive when he's not scripted.

        Bill Clinton was able to have a dialogue with people who disagreed with him. My God, how far we've traveled down a dark path since then.

        Remember the church in N.C. that booted out its Democratic members? I couldn't believe that any U.S. president would stay silent while his supporters did something so un-American. Bill would have gone down there and held a town-hall meeting about how we all have to get along.

        I didn't even LIKE Bill, but some days I really miss him. He was at least a grown-up.

        Of science and the human heart, there is no limit. -- Bono

        by saucy monkey on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 04:52:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm sure you're mistaken (none)
          GWB is a uniter not a divider. </snark>
        •  I am a Bill fan -- actually more now than before (none)
          And I think the reason I am, is that he has an incredible knack for relating to people and bringing them together.  He's not afraid to get involved and that's what I miss.  

          I do agree with you, I don't know any other president that wouldn't have done the right thing and met with her.  I'm even putting some of the blame on Laura, as well -- why hasn't she done something?  I just doesn't make sense.

          He's definitely showing his true colors and I guess that is something to be thankful for, even if he dissing all of those who have lost loved ones in this occupation.  

          Watergate wasn't about a break-in, it was about a mentality. Carl Bernstein

          by MarCat on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 07:03:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Eleanor Clift gets last comment and parting shot (none)
          on the president's cowardness on McLaughlin Group:
          "...but Iraq is the culprit here [in response to Newsweek poll on direction of country]; really draining confindence in the president. And his refusal to me with this Gold Star mother just reveals how rigid he is and how he operates by belief and conviction and is isolated from reality."
  •  Adopt (4.00)
    a winger blog and take them on. Especially those that claim she's 'using her son's name' and then turn around and say what "Casey would want' thus not only using her son's name, but using his name when they don't know jack shit about Cindy or Casey. They're killing themselves, I see no reason why we shouldn't quicken the suicide.

    Read UTI, your free thought forum

    by DarkSyde on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 01:44:40 PM PDT

  •  where is the option "ignore them" (3.66)
    because really it's just not worthwhile to reply to them.  it's not want Cindy is about, it's just a distraction.

    let them write what they want, it won't stop us.

  •  My answer to wingers: (4.00)
    STFU, enlist, and encourage others who share your views to do the same!

    "Free speech is not to be regulated like diseased cattle and impure butter." William O. Douglas.

    by Street Kid on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 01:57:08 PM PDT

  •  Yeah I had my own (4.00)
    run in with a troll. He said that...

    "Being in the military I can tell you a very small minority of relatives (parents, spouses, etc.) hold her views, and even fewer would vocalize them the way she has for fear of destroying the very principles and goals our soldiers are fighting for"

    I responded like so:

    What exactly are the principles and goals you reference in your statement? Sounds really, really important, but you never bother to mention them. You don't lay those out, and that's exactly the problem. Cindy's question is exactly that: what is the  noble cause for her son's death?

    Since you don't seem able to articulate anything thoughtful on this, let me help you out with some guesses as to what you might be thinking...

    Guess number 1 ....Democracy?
    Hmmm. So we invade a sovereign nation to bring it Democracy? Geez, we've only got China and most of the rest of the non-Western world left. Oh, and word has it we did our best to throw that last Iraqi election. Maybe we should start Democracy improvement at home, first? Start working on those diebold machines and the like.

    Guess number 2.... Freedom?
    Oh that word just fills me with joy. I hear Rocky's theme whenever a rightwinger ennunciates it with all the adoration and piety of a true believer. FREEDOM! Tra lalala! Only, rightwingers apparently mean something like freedom to make money by snookering poor folk. That other stuff, freedom of press, freedom of speech, privacy, that's just terroristic ammo, that is, we've got to limit that. Keep those prisoners in Gitmo without trial! Why? To protect our 'Freedom'! Drop cluster bombs on Baghdad. Why? To protect our Freedom! Torture and murder innocents in Bagram and Abu Ghraib. Why? Protect our Freedom!

    What utter horseshit.

    As to 'freedom' in Iraq...

    Let's ask how many Iraqis feel free enough to walk their own streets? Are you in Iraq? Do you feel free enough to walk anywhere outside the Green zone? Furthermore, freedom to do what? Have your newspapers confiscated? Have your homes broken into and your brothers and husbands dragged away? Have the honor of sucking down some of our DU powder? Maybe have the honor of electing a slimy US handpicked crony? Have the honor to be unemployed? Be hungry, thirsty and ill educated? Oh please, spare me your dimwitted cross-eyed freedom speech. Your the kind of low life hierarchial honoring suck up who will lick Bush's ass, throw innocents in jail all over the world, shut down presses in Iraq, and talk about 'freedom' because we imprisoned Saddam Hussien--whom, by the way, we actually helped to create. Maybe we should focus a bit more on not fucking so much up, first, eh, before we provide all this high minded 'freedom' that tends to kill a disproportionate number of brown Iraqis. Liberating souls from bodies is what McKinley did in the Philipines. Let's not try to match his stupidity and cruelty in Iraq.

    Guess number 3... Free Market Capitalism?
    Sure, as long as the fat contracts go to the Americans and our 'coalition of the willing(ly duped)'. This feature, however, is otherwise known as crony capitalism, in which, I must say, this administration is amazingly successful.

    Guess number 4....WMD?
    Um, no. Can we lay that to rest now?

    Guess number 5....Stop Terrorism?
    Chuckle. I know, you didn't dare to bring that one up... Because, of course, far from stopping terrorism, it's increased it dramatically and Iraq is on its way to becoming a failed state in the middle of a vicious civil war precisely because -- precisely because -- we invaded it. In short, even if these were our noble goals (and they weren't) they've made matters significantly worse, not better.

    Now, here's what I think the nobel cause was--strategic positioning of military bases in the Middle East to ensure control of Middle Eastern Oil. We got kicked out of Saudi Arabia, so we needed to hang our hat somewhere else. Plus, of course, jr had a hard on for Saddam since before 9/11. In fact, the plans for Gulf War II had been drawn up and -- from Bush and the neocon's perspective -- 9/11 was just a 'happy accident' that allowed the neocon's dirty little war to go forward. If you bothered to read the Downing Street Memo, you'd realize the Brits knew this and tried to talk Bush and company out of rushing illegally into the Iraqi war. But thanks to boneheaded cheerleaders like yourself, the US went anyhow. People who think the way you do really ought to put your lives where your mouths are and sign up for Iraq and leave it at that. You can serve quietly and valiantly and when you die,we'll miss you and say what a nice if gullible guy you were, but don't come crying to me about your boneheaded ideas and how a mother's protest is going to "destroy the very principles and goals our soldiers are fighting for" You apparently don't have a clue what we're fighting for. You're just doing talking points stenography, that's all. If you actually thought through what we're supposedly fighting for, I suspect you wouldn't like it anymore than Cindy Sheehan does.

    But let's move along. You mention this:

    "It is curious that you bring up Rosa Parks, because her act, while individual in nature, was the result of a greater movement of which she was a part."

    I read a little while ago a brief remark on Powerline and Paul was going on about how 'one protestor' is insignificant. What the right, and in particular the Republican right don't understand--and I think the Democrats don't understand either sometimes, nor you either,apparently --is that at bottom, our lives matter more than the politician's lives. The politicians are OUR servants. They work for US. Cindy is dead right because she understands that the correct relationship between constituent and politician is employer to employee. BUSH and this utterly dysfunctional congress are supposed to be in our employ. Yikes. What a bunch of thugs we've hired, eh? I certainly wouldn't have an employee who starts a war, sends my kid to die, than decides to vacation for a month.

    Yet, Cindy is the first one to really call him on it. To crystalize what everyone on this site is feeling. And in addition to the majority of the people in this country who now oppose the war, we have the support of the rest of the world. Bush and his cronies cannot indefinitely ignore the 10 million people who protested around the world on February 15 2003.

    Just the act of a single protestor? Not hardly. The expression of 10 million people who opposed this war and continue to oppose this war, more like it. Cindy makes that protest human.

    Howard Zinn in the Guardian said:

    "There is no act too small, no act too bold. The history of social change is the history of millions of actions, small and large, coming together at points in history and creating a power that governments cannot suppress."

    Cindy Sheehan is not acting alone. She's acting for all of us--you included, like it or not.

    •  Righteous (none)
      but I'm pretty sure we're still in Saudi Arabia.

      Keep an open mind, but don't let your brains fall out.

      by Unstable Isotope on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 02:10:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks... (4.00)
        I should probably modify the Saudi Arabia verbiage so it's say reduced forces rather than entirely 'kicked out', but it's in a comment so I can't. Nevertheless, here's the notes on the Saudi Arabia draw down--it's not complete, but nearly.

        The source is almost unimpeachable, by the way. :-)

        From an April 29, 2003 FoxNews report:

        PRINCE SULTAN AIR BASE, Saudi Arabia  -- In a major shift in American focus in the Persian Gulf, the United States is all but ending its military presence in Saudi Arabia (search), abandoning this remote desert air base that was built in the 1990s and made the site of a high-tech air operations center in 2001.

        Only about 400 U.S. troops will remain in the Muslim kingdom, most of them based near Riyadh to train Saudi forces, American officials said Tuesday.

        Most of the 5,000 U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia will leave by the end of the summer.

        Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld (search) and Saudi Defense Minister Prince Sultan said the pullout is because, with the war won, forces are no longer needed for their previous mission: patrolling the no-fly zone over southern Iraq.

        But the presence of American forces here has long been an irritant for Saudi rulers facing strong anti-American sentiment among a growing and increasingly restive population. Fifteen of the 19 alleged Sept. 11 hijackers were Saudis, and Saudi-born Osama bin Laden cites the U.S. military presence in his homeland as a reason for his hatred of America.


    •  Red State (4.00)
      right?  I saw your post earlier today. Are you banned yet?  What do they have now, about 12 members?  I got banned about a month ago after two days.  
    •  I was originally going to say the following (4.00)
      but I thought the comparison was strange and unfair.  But I'll give it a shot.

      Say that your son is engaging in a beloved hobby-- motorcycling.  He refuses to wear a helmet.  He has a horrible crash and loses his life.

      Some parents would campaign for mandatory helmet laws.  Some would campaign for better motorcycle driver education.

      But by the rightwing-nut logic they are using, these parents should just shut up and honor their child's choice.

      And using that philosophy of "my child, right or wrong" we've gotten into a whole heap of trouble in a whole mess of places...I won't even go into that.

      But taken to its extreme, one mollycoddled little Prince of New England, former denizen of Connecticut, silver spoon sucker, Yale graduate is counting on the fact that non-thinking Americans will say "my country, right or wrong" just like his momma did when he was a little screw-up.

      I'm so sick of this, I could spit.

    •  rock on (none)
      utterly complete. they're left in shambles, a bunch of stuttering dumbo dittoheads, repeating meaningless talking point propaganda cliche sentences in automatic fashion ad nauseum.

      Do it GREEN, know what I mean?

      by SonofFunk on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 04:58:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Nice summary (none)
      Delicate, I'm saving this for future use!


  •  Why would anyone disrespect the president? (4.00)

    He does that all by himself just fine.

    (He looks high as a kite! Is he overmedicated?)

  •  Good diary, but ignoring is better (4.00)
    You think the points you responded to are bad?  I was just over at where the writer was saying OSAMA WOULD BE PROUD OF CINDY.  Can you believe it???  

    These people have no soul, no conscience.  They've pounced on her to give meaning to their meaningless existence, and it won't work. Because they're all cowards, every last yellowhearted, draftdodging, morally bankrupt lot of them. They WISH they had a mother like Cindy, a mother that actually gives a fuck about them instead of dropping them on their heads like their mamas did.

    So ignore them.  Tell them to take their commie-pinko-traitor-Moorelovin'-Osamahuggin' rhetoric and shove it.  These people aren't Americans.  These people don't understand--and will never understand--concepts like "sacrifice", "truth" and "facts."  So fuck them. Let them continue their cacophony of lies that even THEY don't believe.  Let them think they're all big men for tearing a grieving mother down.  Let them call all us liberals traitors.  Let them think they're winning, and then enjoy the look on their face when we kick their warmongering asses in 2006.

    Yeah, I'm pissed. Can you tell?

    •  OBL? (none)
      You mean the guy that Bush said that he wasn't worried about? The one that we know where he is, but aren't bothering to catch? The one that the Liar said he would capture?

      A True US Patriot realizes if the rights of one are violated, the rights of all are at risk...

      by SisTwo on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 02:17:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Bush is Osama's Best Recruiter (4.00)
      You say Osama would be proud of Cindy? The best thing that ever happened to al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden was having George Bush in the White House on 9/11. If you don't believe it look at the difficulty that the American Military is having meeting it's recruiting goals. al Qaeda is having no such difficulty.

      Anyone with two brain cells firing at the same time would have known that you cannot bomb people into submission. Ask yourself how you would react if someone, anyone, dropped a bomb on your house that killed your child.

      Bush's policies have created a recruiting nightmare for the US Military and a recruiting dream for the terrorists. Do you feel safer?

      The only thing that matters is what you give away.

      by AngryBeardedMan on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 02:52:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why do they (4.00)
    presume to speak for Casey?  Why do they think more sacrifices will make up for her loss?  Do they think they're being helpful or do they lack all empathy?  

    Keep an open mind, but don't let your brains fall out.

    by Unstable Isotope on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 02:06:59 PM PDT

    •  Why? (4.00)
      People like Michelle Malkin & Co. can presume to speak for Casey because of they value George Bush over anything else.

      Getting to the truth -- about Iraq, about torture, about outing a CIA agent -- is secondary to making sure Bush is right.

      I'm sure they have empathy. If Cindy Sheehan had never spoken up, they'd have all the sympathy in the world for her son.

      They are helping their side "win." That's all these people are interested in.


      Dissent Protects Democracy

      by cscs on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 02:17:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Drunk with power (none)
        And not about to let it get out of their hands, Ever.
        Not ever.
        Not over a war we got lied into, not over anything.

        This is a belief, I think, among Republicans that they are the ONLY ones decent, moral, religious and responsible enough to have power, so have power they must. AT ALL COSTS. Trashing someone is just no big deal, whoever it is. Outing a CIA operative? Cool.
        Anything goes. This is amazing to me, that fellow Americans feel they are so exceptional that they and only they are equipped to lead.

        I wonder what the hell they'll do when they lose, and lose big.  

        War is not an adventure. It is a disease. It is like typhus. - Antoine De Saint-Exupery

        by Margot on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 04:57:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You're right, Margot... (none)
          ...that fits in perfectly with Lakoff's framing of the GOP as paternalistic, rugged individualists with a Darwinian approach to life. The trouble is, they NEVER will "believe" they lost---they will blame others for stealing it from them...This is turning out to be Orwell's never-ending war...

          "When the winds of change blow hard enough, the most trivial of things can become deadly projectiles." --

          by Newton Snookers on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 11:39:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  let's face it (4.00)
    The president is a chickenhawk, Cheney is a chickenhawk, and many of the Cindy bashers are themselves chickenhawks.

    Look at the articles that describe the experience that military recruiters had in Pittsburgh when they went to the houses of the "well to do"; they are told "we support you, but people like us don't belong in the military."

    The chickenhawk administration gets mainstream GOP support because many of their supporters are themselves chickenhawks.

    So, as far as the trolls:  if they are making vaild points that contribute to the discussion, fine.  If they are just venting, troll-rate 'em and be done with 'em.

  •  Cindy's Question: (4.00)
    Is Iraq A Noble Cause?

    That's really the only question that needs an answer.

    That's the question the President, the "stay the course" Dems, the freepers, the pundits and the trolls need to answer.

    We're waiting...

    Dissent Protects Democracy

    by cscs on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 02:08:06 PM PDT

  •  very nice, indeed (4.00)
    a couple of suggestions to pack that extra punch:

    howzabout making "downing street memo" a hyperlink to the website?  

    there are probably a lot of other fun things that could be sprinkled throughout as well, like kos' lovely front page piece wherein a conservative blogger rips into the sheehan critics.


    •  So sorry... (none)
      You're right.  I should have done some hyperlinking.  But I was too hyper to hyperlink.  I just got in from errands with the hubby and logged into Kos for a bit and got into a tangle with yet another person questioning Cindy's motives and I just lost it.

      So, yes, you've just read one of my lazy-ass rants.  They're the only things that ever get highly recommended.  The ones I actually think about and construct with any great care get plenty of zzzzzzs.

      The people have spoken.  They love my heart and not my head.  I can accept that.

  •  Drop it like it's hot (4.00)
    That's my philosophy - an anti-Cindy troll spouting any of the bullshit you mention deserves to get a big fat 0 dropped on them. Coming to this site with those ideas is dictionary definition trolldom and should be treated as such.

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

    by eugene on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 02:21:24 PM PDT

    •  amen brotherman (4.00)
      Yesterday many very well-meaning people here, God bless 'em, engaged for a long time with some prick who was here just to slime Cindy Sheehan.  I think that because he didn't come out of the gate with the usual insults, word-for-word, people were inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.  But eventually he outed himself, when he was no longer able to hide his sick motives.

      Personally, I thought it was pretty obvious from the get-go.  So I say, don't bother arguing sense to these people.  Just zero the bastards off the site.  Tell them why, sure, but do it, goddamnit.

      This is a defining moment for our country.  For our REAL values.  Anyone who comes here talking shit about Cindy Sheehan is un-American, and shows that he has put the fortunes of the Republican party ahead of the country and the soldiers who defend us.  

      So give them hell, then drop 'em.  ZERO.

  •  Their chief tactic... (4.00)
    is to group Cindy with "the fringe".

    The best way to counter the wingnuts is to expose this lie.

    They wilt like vampires when they see this poll.

  •  Who wants their kid to die for a lie? (4.00)
    The fact is that Bush and the NeoCon war machine in the White House fabricated a ruse to take this country to war. Cindy's son believed had a duty to his country to follow their orders, based on lies or not. Cindy has a right as a grieving mother to insist that Bush be held accountable for her sons sacrifice.

    The only thing that matters is what you give away.

    by AngryBeardedMan on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 02:36:10 PM PDT

  •  Excellent diary (none)
    Very nicely worded, especially the part about the in-laws.  To think that Drudge actually tried to make it an issue that her distant relatives aren't agreeing with Xindy shows the level at which these jerks will sink to.
  •  X not C for Cindy (none)
    Train of thought typing speed, the occasional error gets by
  •  These freepers (4.00)
    are out of their little minds right now, they hate that the media is paying attention to Cindy, and they are going to hate even more the way the media will cover them, especially if their "pro bush" rally turns out like I think it will.

    These idiots will show up with signs that will denounce Cindy, which will show them for what they are, nothing but filled with hate and all of them cowards.

    I want the picture of them gathering to support Bush on the front pages of all newspapers, and I want this under the picture:

    Bush supporters gather in Texas while more soldiers are killed in Iraq.

    ENOUGH! If anyone has a "right" to speak out, Cindy Sheehan has that right, her SON lost his life in a war that this administration lied about, a war that each day is fought for "new" reasons, a war that continues to rage with no end in site.

    I hope Crawford ends up crawling with freepers of enlistment age, and reporters then need to ask them all why they aren't enlisted.

    "September 11, 2001, already a day of immeasurable tragedy, cannot be the day liberty perished in this country." Judge Gerald Tjoflat

    by SanJoseLady on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 02:41:09 PM PDT

  •  The President (4.00)
    As to respecting "The President," I wish all these twerps would remember He works for us, or he's supposed to. He's our employee. He's our servant.

    Yes, we should respect our employee, when he deserves it, i.e., when he's doing a good job. When he's doing a bad job -- which for Bush is always -- we need to hold him accountable.

    All this kowtowing to Bush like he's in there as God's own anointed is total foolishness, of course.

    Someone was on the news one day -- oh, yeah, Monica Crowley -- complaining how some young people wore tennis shoes while near Bush. Disrespectful!! Uh, try to put this in the right context: Bush is actually nothing compared to We The People.

  •  Best response: (4.00)
    "Will you enlist?"  Every damn talking head and commentator/host that is pro-war should be asked... on the air!  If they are too old (anyone over 42, since it appears the max age for service will extended.)  And get the name and phone # of the recruiter nearest them.

    "Monica Crowley, since you are so supportive, will you enlist?"

    "Here is the name and number of your nearest recruiter (xxxx, at (xxx) xxx-xxxx).  I called, he or she knows you may be interested and is waiting for you to call."

    Or if they are too old, perhaps they have children who can serve the "noble cause".  I'm sure the recruiter will be happy to take them as well.

  •  One thing (none)
    you have to realize is that these trolls are afraid. They are cowards that are afraid to stand up to the Bush Monster. And a Monster he has become.

    The GOP is the party of Somebody Else

    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 02:47:47 PM PDT

  •  Smacks of desperation (4.00)
    It has been wierd--I've been checking in here for a while, and I've never seen such a troll infestation like the one going on around Cindy Sheehan. They must know they are fucked.

    I say just ignore. It pains me to see people trying to offer arguments or responses; these trolls aren't interested in what you have to say, they're just pushing buttons, and they likely giggle when people offer serious responses.

  •  Ignoring the comments (4.00)
    is how we got this hellish administration. The drip ... drip ... drip of government programs are bad; taxes are stealing; death tax; welfare queens; the market always knows best; privatize; public schools are crap and all the other deceptive beliefs that many people now accept without question or examination. And of course, now, the Cindy is a traitor opinion.

    We need to counter and question every nutty, evil assumption or opinion that comes out of the right-wing, IMO.

    "Help us to save free conscience from the paw -- Of hireling wolves whose gospel is their maw." --John Milton

    by ohiolibrarian on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 02:51:38 PM PDT

    •  Bingo... (none)

      Sorry for the caps....I wanted to be loud, like a nasty boss, which is what Bush needs. :-)

  •  Cindy is so savvy that she has them all (4.00)
    aligning with HER, NOT the other way around!  She has brilliantly rolled with the punches and is sharp enough to use them to her advantage.

    Why would anyone think that is worthy of ridicule?  

    She is still focused on the same message, only now she has a lot more anti-war organizations jumping on her bandwagon. Why shouldn't she use them for publicity?  She knows the state of the media today and is bright enough to use every bit of media attention to help carry her message. Cindy is nobody's victim, God Bless her!

    I am so glad we have a smart, passionate woman showing them all what it means to stand up as an American and demand answers to serious questions!  She is totally justified in wanting to know what is honorable about sending more American's sons and daughters to their premature deaths in Iraq. Particularly in the face of recent threats from the man and terrorists who were actually responsible for 9/11, Osama bin Ladin!  George Bush needs to answer why he has done diddly about going after the 9/11 terrorists, instead of the tired old blurry GOP line about fighting the 'war on terrror' and 'the enemy'.  We need him to define the mission and who the enemy is, now that we all know it isn't Saddam or Iraq.  Otherwise, these soldiers are dying for his blunders, and every American who keeps silent and let's him get away with it, is just as responsible.

    When Bush and Powell and the rest made their case for the war, they deliberately lied to scare the shit out of Americans so they would not question going into Iraq instead of after Osama bin Ladin. Young people who signed up for duty actually believed this President!  Then of course the mission changed and changed again, and is still changing at their whim.  We all know the media should have been asking the answers to these questions, and if they had been doing their jobs properly, we might not be in quite the mess we find ourselves today!

    I am so happy for, proud of, and totally behind Cindy for her bravery in speaking the truth!  I'm also actually glad these assholes on the right are finally showing their true colors.  By smearing a grieving American mother, they are demonstrating to the world what cold hearted bastards they are, not to mention how lacking in Christian morals and values they truly are!

    Anyone who was raised with even a shred of decency or etiquette or Christian values - REGARDLESS of their political persuasion - knows that there are some boundaries you simply don't cross. Only low class, self-serving scum WITH AN AGENDA would stoop to such lows.  There is no valid excuse for it, no matter how they TRY TO SPIN IT.  

    I trust that most Americans know that, too.

  •  Disrespect? Well, yeah, by using the 1st amendment (4.00)
    Amendment I
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

    If Congress can't do it, troll-fools, you sure as hell can't.  That wasn't just lip service from the Founders- dissent with government policies is a fundamental right for citizens of our democratic republic. Yeah, even that form of government sounds a lil red-blue, doesn't it? Anybody who hates the Bill of Rights enough to mock a citizen exercising their constitutional rights needs to STFP.

  •  How do you address anti-Cindy trolls? (4.00)
    I don't.


    Mitch Gore

    Nobody will change America for you, you have to work to make it happen

    by Lestatdelc on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 03:00:15 PM PDT

  •  All this response from the Freepers (4.00)
    makes me wonder if Cindy has struck a chord.

    • Maybe the little imaginary fairyland that George Bush has created for them is starting to crumble.
    • Maybe some truth is creeping into their fantasy worldview.

    I'm sure it must be kind of painful and blinding for them to getting a sight of reality.

    I voted troll rate them, but:

    Maybe we should be pity them and help them back to reality after their heads are finished exploding.

    The worst thing of all is that I was away for a while and haven't posted too much, so I lost my TU and I am sure I am missing a good part of the fun.

    Great diary Suzq

  •  Just Ask A Simple Question........... (none)
    If they are under 42, Why Aren't They At Their Recruiters Office?????

    Simple and Shuts Them up Quick, except for the Ones Who are suffering from a Wide Veriaty of Ailments, [seems Alot of Freeper/Sheeple are extremely Ill folks] on that I Tell Them To Lie to the Recruiters!!!!!!


    James Starowicz

    VFP 'Declaration Of Impeachment'

    Sign On and Pass Link To Others

    VFP Impeachment Petition

    USN '67-'71 GMG3 Vietnam In-Country'70-'71 COMNAVFORV

  •  i read in another diary (none)
    that the barbeque got cancelled?
    •  and in another 'nother diary... (4.00)
      we learn that mike gallagher is staging a bus-in anti-protest protest.  or some such nonsense...

      anyhoo, i'm as mischevious as they get, so i vote we invite the Crawford area Army recruitment centers to mike's lil soiree.

      oh, and to spare you the ignominy of clicking on this asshat's website, it says:

      Join Mike Today for his Pro-America Bus Trip to Crawford, TX!

      Email Mike - - or call (972) 831-1920 to find out how you can be a part of it.

      * whistles innocently *

  •  Sheep and Cult (4.00)
    These are NOT their own thoughts. They are thoughts designed and spun by Drudge, Hannity, Rush etc. You will NEVER see these trolls have an original statement  or thought.

    That is why I call them a cult.

    1. They blindly follow their leader
    2. They speak the spin without looking at facts
    3. You can't reason with them at all
    4. They NEVER have a thought of their own
    5. They accuse others of the very things they are
    6. Even when you prove the facts beyond a shadow of a doubt they will NOT see it.

     That is a cult my friends. They are totally brainwashed and can't function without being told what to think.

    Please check out my last two blogs for some ideas to take action

  •  with all due respect, how can you reason with (none)
    idiots that are posting show dumb shit about her? I really don't think there is any hope for them.
  •  Great Satirical Version on Hurffington Post (4.00)
    Cenk Uyugr posted this op-ed on the Huffington Post today. It shows how the right wing scream machine would have gone after Rosa Parks the same way as they are going after Cindy. I normally don't quote articles in full, but this one is too delicious to pass up (besides, I've used up my diary posting quota for the day).

    What Fox News Channel Would Have Done to Rosa Parks

    Cindy Sheehan - in case you've been living in a box or you only watch the mainstream media - is the mom of slain Iraq War veteran Casey Sheehan. She is protesting in front of George Bush's Crawford ranch this month. This grieving mom has been characterized as a flip-flopper, accused of putting on a public circus, lambasted as a publicity seeking grandstander and criticized for not truly speaking for her family since an aunt and a godmother Matt Drudge found somewhere in the Sheehan family disagrees with her. The conservative attack machine is in high gear in the efforts to tear this woman down.

    That made me think of how it would have been in the Civil Rights era if Fox News Channel, Rush Limbaugh, Matt Drudge and the rest of the gang were around back then.

    O'Reilly: "Rosa Parks claims she speaks for all of the African-Americans in the South, but in fact, we have found two African-Americans who say they disagree with her. They say she's just trying to gain publicity and doesn't speak for anyone in her race. They would know, they're black."

    Hannity: "Could Rosa Parks be angling for a Senate run? What does she have to gain from her public stand? Coming up next, the incredible story of how this woman might be deceiving the whole country!"

    Drudge: "We have found three members of the Parks family who say that Rosa doesn't speak for them. That, in fact, they are very happy with the government of the state of Alabama. The uncle, step-brother-in-law and niece three-times removed all agree that the better route is a dignified, respectful silent deference to authority. Developing ..."

    Limbaugh: "We have just found information that before Rosa Parks sat in the front of the bus, there were numerous times, she sat in the back of the bus! Ah ha! A flip-flopper!"

    Drudge: "More stories on Rosa Parks scandalous history of consistently sitting in the back of the bus before she changed her position and insisted she would only sit in the front of the bus. Developing ..."

    Malkin: "I think I speak for the entire Parks family, and especially her children, when I say that they are so embarrassed by their mother who is making a public spectacle of herself."

    Hannity: "Rosa Parks has turned this whole so-called civil rights issue into a public circus. We have information that Ted Kennedy might have put her up to this. That amazing story when we come back!"

    Colmes: "You're right, Sean. I'm sorry."

    O'Reilly: "To question the government of Alabama and implicitly the entire United States government by defying the political order like this has to be considered treasonous. Civil disobedience is a code word for I hate America. These people are criminals, simple criminals. It's ridiculous that they think they don't have to live by the same rules as the rest of us."

    Scarborough: "Yeah, whatever they just said on Fox News Channel! Well ... I mostly agree with it."

    Kaplan: "Can we hire Shep Smith to cover this? Maybe give him his own show?"

    Limbaugh: "What did I tell you folks? These libs like Parks would rather live in France where they can sit anywhere they want on the bus. They hate America. They want special privileges to be able to sit anywhere they want. They hide behind the color of their skin to try to undermine this country."

    Coulter: "Rosa Parks is a dyke!"

    Blitzer: "Dr. King, is it true that you support the liberal agitator Rosa Parks in her defiance of America? Can you confirm whether she has in fact sat in the back of the bus before? Do you think this makes her a flip-flopper? If she has been so inconsistent on this, how can we trust her on anything?"

    Drudge: "MY SOURCES TELL ME THAT THIS MIGHT BE THE FIRST TIME ROSA PARKS HAS EVER SAT IN THE FRONT OF THE BUS. A whole life of sitting in the back of the bus and now this woman claims all of a sudden she wants to sit in the front of the bus. Developing ..."

    O'Reilly: "Unbelievable, just unbelievable. Ridiculous!"

    Hannity: "Incredible!"

    Scarborough: "What did they just say?"

    In Unison: "Flip-flopper! Flip-flopper! Flip-flopper!"

    Blitzer: "Ms. Parks left the bus in disgrace today after it was confirmed that some members of her family did not agree with her, she had ruined her credibility by working for the NAACP before the bus incident, and she had in fact sat in the back of the bus on previous occasions. Now back to the emotionally wrenching story of the girl missing in ..."

    It is not the responsibility of the state to help its citizens get into heaven nor to save them from hell.

    by Dan K on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 03:27:33 PM PDT

  •  Republicans (4.00)
    I use to have respect for Republicans.  We may not see eye to eye on any issues, but I at least respected their beliefs.  Over the past four years that respect has crumbled and decayed.  It's almost as if the Republican party is channeling its vilest and most despicable attributes these days.  This is the dark side of the Republican party.  The one that beats its wife, and doesn't think segregation was such a bad idea.  And the Republican party we see today is without a doubt a direct result of the current administration.  One more reason that George W. Bush is the worst president in the history of this country.

    Bush's Iraq-gate will be the best made-for-TV movie ever.

    by starkness on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 03:29:07 PM PDT

  •  The only thing I have to say to the shits (none)
    including the ones in her own family:

    You didn't give birth to Casey, so shut. the. fuck. up.

  •  Disrespectful? (4.00)
    I would love for a Republican to reconcile for us the respect they held for the office of the president during Clinton'e tenure, along with the respect they supposedly hold for our troops. They support a president who cuts taxes for the mega-rich during a time of war, a president who cuts VA benefits and combat pay during a time of war, and is wrecklessly abusing the use of our National Guard and it's intended purposes... A president who went into an unnecessary conflict with a poor plan and too few troops, not to mention failing to provide adequate armor and protection for the troops he did send.

    And for any Republican doucheface who might be reading this and still attempting to claim that the Iraq war is keeping the world safe from terrorism, please explain to us why terrorist attacks around the world have doubled since Bush's illegal war began, and the insurgents who Dick Cheney says are in their "last throes", have doubled their attacks in the past year. Combine that with zero improvements to the security of America's infrastructure and targets and it sure sounds like we are living in a world that is less safe under Bush.

    Take a second and contemplate how the money and resources wasted in Iraq could have been used to make this country safer, while cooperating with other countries to hunt terrorism with special forces and people who work in the shadows... Now ask yourself how that compares to the results from Iraq... We have absolutely nothing to show for this war in Iraq except for the rising profits of military contractors. Nothing.

  •  re (none)
    I think the thing that sets the right off is her media-savvyness (is that a word?).

    Her ability to use the soapbox she's created (and been given) makes her quest come off--in THEIR perception--as not genuine.

    I don't know if there's anything she could or should do that would inspire more broad-based empathy.

  •  The fact that... (none)
    they feel compelled to troll and scream at her in the rightwing media demonstrates that Cindy has hit a nerve and that her persistence and message are registering with the American people.

    Subvert the dominant paradigm: play accordion - Boaz.

    by millennialpaine on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 03:51:23 PM PDT

  •  i reiterate my prayer (4.00)
    for a button that lets us unrecommend a diary without having to recommend it first, i.e. knock it the hell off the recent list.
  •  Maybe we can have a massive liberal seance (none)
    and through the power of our collective consciousness will all the asswipe winger trolls into one fleeting second of honest introspection. That would surely be enough to knock them to their knees and beg forgiveness for being such fucking hypocrites.

    And for those of you who prefer more traditional approach, praying for them to see the hideous nature of their evil ways.

    (Years ago, I would have prayed too. Guess I've lost my confidence in a god that would allow the shitstorm Bush has created.)

  •  Re: #4 John Gibson (none)
    John Gibson was the "cat up a tree" reporter for local TV station KCRA in Sacramento for years.

    He was a doofus then. But as a right-wing commentator, well, he's just embarrasing and way over his head.

    He should go back to a beat he is comfortable with.

  •  Some Eric Hoffer quotes (none)
    I haven't really chimed in on the Sheehan thing.  My gut told me it was probably a waste of time on her part.  In general I feel protests are usually a waste of time, except when it's regular people and you can tell they actually care.

    Well now it seems she is a regular person, and she does care and her protest is having a bit of an impact.  Good, I hope people notice.

    Republicans only attack that which they fear.  That they have mobilized their massive smear machine towards this woman is proof positive that she's making an impact.  God I feel sorry for her and her family for the pain they are causing her, but she has my support.

  •  I gave fours (4.00)
    to all who claimed to have been banned at redstate, and to the poster who went to their websites and gave them shit. The fight is on. I been reading here for sometime and this is the largest influx of trolls I have ever seen. Somebody has gotten under their skin, and I like it. Fuck em'
  •  I say ignore the kool-aid drinkers (none)
    Anyone who would attack a grieving mother is beyond redemption. Cindy is getting through to the millions of Americans who are changing their minds about this war and are just now realizing that the president lied to us.

    Our challenge is to welcome those who were at first for the invasion of Iraq and now are joining our side without insulting them or otherwise turning them off to our point of view.

    "Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservative." -- John Stuart Mill

    by Auntie Mame on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 04:28:59 PM PDT

  •  Cindy IS politically motivated! (4.00)
    How stupid!  Of course Cindy is politically motivated.  Anyone who has an opinion on the war one way or the other is politicallly motivated.  The real smear they are trying to get at is that she is trying to gain politically from her position and protest.  To that  I cry BULLSHIT!

    They are such hypocritical bastards.  She's politically motivated, but O'Reilly is not.  The Dixie Chicks are just stupid celebrities who need to shut up, but Toby Keith is a true American hero.  Billy boy should not be respected for getting a BJ (who is against BJ's anyway?), but no any speech even remotely criticizing W is treasonous.  A judge who rules in favor of a woman's choice is activist, but one who would ban abortion is following the rule of law.......  I hate the assholes!

  •  Poor, poor Cindy (none)
    * 5. Cindy Doesn't Know She's Being Used.

    Yup.  All those groups are using Cindy as their point man, and she's too naive to realize it.  Poor Cindy...  Clearly she needs help seeing the BIG PICTURE.

    Soldiers need Armor, not Ribbons

    by winstnsmth on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 05:30:41 PM PDT

    •  Ah HAH!!` (none)
      I KNEW the far right would come up with something new!
      My only thought is, Hmn... seems like a mom with a brain.
      Think she knows who is trying to use her and what all...
      She also knows who slamming her and is ignoring it for most part.
  •  I don't think they should be banned (none)
    Maybe trolls can learn something here.   Just a few minutes ago, a disbelieving Mangomango asked for documentation that veterans benefits are being cut, and that terrorism has increased since the Iraq War began.  Someone posted links to the documentation, and then some trigger-happy, mojoed-up character apparently deleted the whole conversation, and Mangomango gets to remain uninformed.

    I wouldn't engage the stinky ones, either . . . but some of them may not beyond hope.  Let's do our best to reason with those.  It's the right thing to do.

    I'm not moving to Canada. I'm gonna stay here and be a MAJOR pain in his ass.

    by politichic on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 06:22:52 PM PDT

    •  Trolls rarely get banned (4.00)
      Their comments do get 0'd out when they don't behave.

      Mangomango had no desire to learn.  It just kept asking whiney questions and when someone tried to answer honestly, it continued to whine why why...

      It's one thing to argue constructively with someone.  It's another thing when someone has no desire to listen and to simply disrupt.

      •  It proved it while I was responding to your (4.00)
        •  Except that some overzealous Kos-critter . . . . (none)
          . . . has wiped old Mangomango from the memory banks.  I find that kind of censorship troubling.  What, for whining?  Why not leave the comments up to speak for themselves?  We are fairly intelligent here, and can judge for ourselves the value of posted comments.  We can ignore or engage or even post recipes . . . let us decide, oh, mighty Mojo Persons.  

          I'm not moving to Canada. I'm gonna stay here and be a MAJOR pain in his ass.

          by politichic on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 08:37:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  a hidden comment (none)
    A poster (whose comment is now hidden) asked if Cindy was somehow in collusion with the Democratic party or with liberal groups.

    I wish his comment hadn't been taken off the board because I'd like to address it directly:

    the answer is:  "not necessairly".  Why?  Go to the American Conservative website (forget the exact URL; use google) and read some of their anti-war articles.  Some are very sharp and hard-hitting; they make many of the points that she raises.

    Not all anti-war types are liberal.

  •  Put this in Your Troll Pipe (none)
    and smoke it, trolls!

    Because sticks and stones may break our bones, but names will never stop us.

    Many other women around the world haven't fretted over being hip, raising consciousness, or leading a movement, however well-intentioned. They've been too busy working for change on behalf of others. The activism of ordinary women laid the groundwork for the Environmental Protection Agency, the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty of 1963, the dismantling of the House Un-American Activities Committee and the 9/11 commission. Rebecca Solnit writes of these women in Orion (May/June 2005), "History is changed again and again by people who are supposedly powerless, including the women veiled by the dismissive moniker housewife."

    Ode Magazine
    September 2005 Issue
    Venus Rising
    by Kim Ridly

  •  I say Bring it (none)
    I never troll rate freepers... I love when trolls come looking for information. Don't forget that we have the truth and fact on our side... they have the lunatic ravings of a draft dodging chickenhawk.
  •  my answer to the "how i deal" poll (4.00)
  •  Tell them to enlist or stop typing! (none)
    No "Fighting 101st Keyboarders" will be given attention.  
    Respect your president.  Go fight his war.
    Good luck.
  •  My neighbor's son... (4.00) a maniac wingnut, about 25 years old.

    i asked him why he didn;t just join if he believed in the war.

    he said he could much more good here in the states.

    he manages a gas station

    what's the need for troops in iraq add up to when you consider how much good can be done here checking someone's oil?

    the fact is, every single republican war hawk of fighting age who doesn't volunteerto join the army is a coward

    just like bush

    a coward

    a fake

    afraid of a mom

  •  re: honor their sacrifice (4.00)
    Should we continue in Iraq just to "honor" Casey's service?  

    there's also an empirical answer to this question, and it's still no.  because this is exactly the reasoning that had us stay in vietnam when we were only at a small fraction of the final body count.  58,000 young american lives lost later, we left with none of our objectives met and our honor in tatters.

    oh and on the poll, close but no cigar.  i'd like to tell them what to do with their leftover zucchini, but cooking doesn't enter into it.

    we'd better decide now if we are going to be fearless men or scared boys.
    — e.d. nixon, montgomery improvement association

    by zeke L on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 08:29:22 PM PDT

  •  So wait, (none)
    Not getting into the whole is she right is she wrong thing, but aren't the 'trolls' as you put it allowed to speak?
  •  You're better than me (4.00)
    in that you have assembled a clear, well-written response to the anti-Camp Casey trolls.

    My feeling: when it's all said and done, these Camp Casey demonstrators will never get their children back.  They will have to live with the fact that their children were killed in this war for the rest of their lives.  That's enough for me to not feel any need to substantively respond to trolls who would disparage the Camp Casey effort.

    If there were a right-winger who had just lost a child and was staging a demonstration in favor of the war, I would not advocate smearing such a person.  For no other reason but respect for their loss.

    Anti-Sheehan trolls lack even this most basic empathy.  They don't deserve real responses.

    I don't think our troops should be used for what's called nation building. - George W. Bush, 2000

    by GN1927 on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 09:15:17 PM PDT

  •  PapayaPapaya (4.00)
    I have never seen such an 'invasion' of trolls.

    Cindy is hitting a nerve BIG TIME.

    From Mr. Mangomagoo here to the guy in the phony army with the bull horn in Crawford ...

    You can see and feel the desperation ... to quote Bush:

     "I think we're turning the corner" ...

  •  yesterday on Media Matters... (none)
    ...I was going toe to toe with a wingnut on one of the threads after he offered the theory that Cindy Sheehan was not acting on her own free will; that she, not being of sound mind, was being manipulated by Michael Moore and MoveOn. Much like the Intelligent Design crowd, the defense of his baseless theory was that I had no proof that it was baseless, and that it was only a "possibility", though he had stated it as a "fact". They also clumsily contended that she is doing my "bidding", going on to explain that he allows George Bush, Rush Limbaugh, and John Cornyn do his bidding [I asked if justifying courtroom violence was doing his bidding, and he brushed it off as a "leftist talking point"].

    So, add it to your list of right-wing arguments: Cindy Sheehan is an easily manipulated grieving mother not acting on her own free will.

  •  And damn that Martin Luther King (none)
    What a brazen political move.  A black man speaking out for racial equality.  What about Ghandi- an Indian protesting and leading a Indian Independence movement.  How dare they be so politically motivated!  Imagine a woman who lost her son in a stupid, unnecessary war becoming a peace activist.  What will you Liberals stoop to next- maybe a teacher speaking out against NCLB?  The nerve!
  •  After all is said... (none)
    ...Cindy bought the right to speak up with her son's life.  That is a horrible price to pay for a voice.  Just, ask the 101st flying keyboardists (or chicken hawks) if they would like to pay those dues.

    America is suffering from Roverian cancer. I am really afraid Bush will prescribe radiation for it...

    by waztec on Sat Aug 13, 2005 at 08:12:30 AM PDT

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