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Last year this woman, whom I don't know, forwarded to me a long rant asserting that Christians were being prevented from saying "Merry Christmas!" That Christians are being discriminated against, although this is a "Christian country."

Now I get THIS email with the same fervent comment added: "Amen!"

Maybe I should've merely deleted--but I replied.

Subject: This one will make you think THIS IS THE TRUTH, ALRIGHT

This is not intended to be a joke, it's intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this happen?" (regarding the attacks on Sept. 11).

More below:

Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.

And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"

In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I  think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.

Then someone said you better not read the Bible in
school. the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou
shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide).

We said an expert should know what he's talking about.

And we said OK.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough,we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

Funny y how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.

Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.

Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles
pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing?

Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they WILL think of you for sending it. Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.

Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in!!

My response:

"This is the truth, alright"? Not to me.

I've asked you before to remove me from your mailing list, when your Christmas screed made it clear you cannot grasp the concept of the separation of church and state in the U.S.A.

The constitution makes it clear our government does not have the right to tell us what religion to practice, where and how. If you want your children to be led in group prayer during school, enroll them in a private church school, not a public government school. Of course, anyone can pray on their own, anytime, anyplace.

Ann Graham's concept of God is laughably childish, if she's being honest. "He" is a gentleman! Prayer and Bible study in school, and more spankings for children would cure all problems.

Ask any social worker or emergency room staffer how many thousands of children are shockingly abused, neglected and sexually molested every year. Yet your concern is for the ones that DON'T get spanked--that they are the ones who end up as criminals. Right.

The Bible says "Do not kill, do not steal"? Depends on which part you choose to read. It also has no problem with slavery, child abuse, stoning to death, genocide, and other such acts most of us would not consider okay today.

Societies like Saudi Arabia that mandate group prayer 5 times a day, public amputations for stealing, and complete submissiveness of women and children must have no disasters, tragedies or crimes. Oh, wait, as Muslims they're going to Hell in spite of all that Godliness.

If you don't want to receive another rant from me, then take me off your mailing list.


Originally posted to dinazina on Tue Sep 20, 2005 at 07:30 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Boy, I'm seeing the theme (4.00)
    of "What's the matter with Kansas?" written all over this.  Keep the uninformed riled up about church vs. state straw men, and they'll ignore their crappy economic predicament.

    Good rant, by the way.  If it turns out there is a hell and I end up going, I will at least be able to rejoice when I meet all these fundies there.

    Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.

    by Cream Puff on Tue Sep 20, 2005 at 07:41:06 AM PDT

  •  Good for you! (4.00)
    Good reply. I would have replied too - there's only so much of this stuff you can ignore. I would have given them a Bible lesson in my reply as that is my bone to pick with these people who wouldn't really know Bible text if it snuck up and bit them on the ass. GAH...morons.

    George Bush is an unnatural disaster.

    by michele2 on Tue Sep 20, 2005 at 07:41:10 AM PDT

  •  Thanks~ (4.00)
    I didn't take the time to research my Bible references, but I doubt if she'd read them anyway.
  •  Unfortunately... (none)
    ...she probably won't listen. My example is my mother, whom I love. However, she's a brainwashed, superstitious (ok, I'll say it) fool. Her Christianity is stuck in some kind of infantile phase, as if you say the magic Jesus words, and all will be well. It's the gays that have brought all this misery upon the United States, in her view. Oh, yeah, and liberals like me.

    I sent her fact-based links and stories about how her idol, George W. Bush, is bringing this country to ruin. She wants no part of it, and asked me to stop sending all those "mean things" about George W. Bush. She is convinced that I (and millions of other people) are out to get him, that the President is a Godly man and that he was indeed anointed by God. All this crap he's getting is persecution because he dares invoke God and Jesus in public forums.

    I'm not kidding.

    I won't go into how she bought all that crap - hook, line and sinker - that Bill Clinton was a murderer and drug dealer, and that Hillary is a lesbian.

    ::shaking my head::

    I still send her anti-Bush links on rare occasions; it may be like hitting my head against a brick wall, but the realities are there. The last thing I sent her was the proposals being made for the Bushtowns that will pop up on the Gulf Coast. That she needed to know about. Other than that, I have tried to respect her wishes. I just can't. I love my mother, but she is truly one of the "brainwashed base." I'm not trying to change her religious beliefs (however wrong I think they are), but I feel a need to show her that her beloved Dear Leader is a hypocrite and a thief, the people she rails against when they sport a "D" after their names.

    Ari Mistral

    "As soon as New Orleans gets back to normal, I plan on volunteering to go down there and help drink their economy back on its feet." - Will Durst

    by Ari Mistral on Tue Sep 20, 2005 at 07:49:57 AM PDT

    •  Thanks for sharing that (none)
      It must be hard to write about it.

      My 79-year-old mother (a retired nurse) isn't very sophisticated politically, and she has some disturbing predjudices, but she HAS listened to me.  

      I convinced her to vote for Dean in the Florida primary last year, she despises Bush, and she does keep herself informed, the best she can with the MSM.

      Thank goodness for my mother!

    •  The only "godly" thing Bush does (4.00)
      is, as you say, invoke God and Jesus in public forums.

      Actions speak louder than words, and if you were to go by Bush's actions alone you would think he was Satan himself. It's amazing how gullible the fundies are: all you have to do is say "God" and "Jesus" in a speech and they will follow you. Meanwhile you can do whatever the hell you want.

      First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mohandas Gandhi

      by trueblue illinois on Tue Sep 20, 2005 at 08:02:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I got some phone winger phone spam last night (4.00)
    trying to horrify the world against liberals by using the ACLU/NAMBLA case. I am no supporter of NAMBLA, but they certainly have the right to a fair trial without scaremongering by the right.
  •  Great response (none)
    Thanks for taking the time. You speak for many of us here.

    First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mohandas Gandhi

    by trueblue illinois on Tue Sep 20, 2005 at 08:03:20 AM PDT

  •  Where in the Bible does it advocate genocide? (none)
    •  It's all over the OT (none)
      The mandate for the Israelites to eliminate the Canaanite tribes daring to live in the Promised Land. God wanted all those pesky Jebusites, Perizzites, etc-isites, eliminated.

      Ari Mistral

      "As soon as New Orleans gets back to normal, I plan on volunteering to go down there and help drink their economy back on its feet." - Will Durst

      by Ari Mistral on Tue Sep 20, 2005 at 08:09:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Here's one reference (none)
      A search on "genocide" and "Bible" brought up over a million pages, but here's one quick reference:

      Genocide was a tool used by God to further the interests of his chosen people.  It is not usually clear what the exterminated peoples had done to deserve annihilation, other than being in the way of the Israelites or worshipping a different god.

      The Israelites slaughter Hamor and his city and plunder it (Gen   34).
      Moses is commanded by God to exterminate the Canaanites, the  Amorites and the people of Bashan "and show no mercy" (Deut 7:1-2, 9:3, Num 21).
      Moses orders "every man" among the Israelites to slay his  brother, companion and neighbor, as a punishment for the idolatry of all, and 3000 die (Ex 32:27-28).
      God commands Moses to slaughter 24,000 people and hang their heads in the sun (Num 25).
      God commands Moses to slay the Midianites because the Israelites  are seduced by them.  All males (including infants) and  adult women are killed; virgins are enslaved (Num 25:17, 31:1-2, 7, 15-18).
      God's annihilation of Sihon's people and others (Deut 2:30-35, 36, 3:1-7).
      God commands Moses, in any city near the promised land which does not agree to become a vassal state of the Israelites, to  kill all the males and take the women and children as slaves  and the animals as booty, but in any city in the promised land the Israelites are to kill every living thing, sparing no one (Deut 20:10-17).
      Joshua, with the help of God, annihilates numerous tribes and  cities, "left none breathing," "destroyed all that breathed, as God commanded" (Josh 6:21, 8:24-27, 10:, 11:11,14,21-22).
      Judah slays 10,000 Canaanites (Judg 1:4) and 10,000 Moabites (Judg 3:29)
      Danites destroy "peaceful" Laish and kill its people for no  reason (Judg 18:27).
      Judah and Simeon utterly destroy Zephath (Judg 1:17).
      Samuel tells Saul that God wants to annihilate the Amalekites, including infants and women, which Saul then does, slaying all the inhabitants except Agag the king (1 Sam 15:1-9).
      David leaves no man or woman alive in the countries he invades: Geshurites, Gezrites and Amalekites (1 Sam 27:9,11).
      David takes Rabbah and puts its people "under saws...and harrows ... and axes of iron and made them pass through the brickkiln" and does the same to all the cities of Ammon (2 Sam 12:31, 1 Chr 20:3).
      David executes 2/3 of Moab by measuring a line (2 Sam 8:2).
      More slaughter by David (2 Sam 8:5, 13, 10:18).
      God helps Judah kill 50,000 Israelites (2 Chr 13:17).
      Esther gets permission for the Jews to slaughter all their enemies, including women and children, which they do, then celebrate it and institute the feast of Purim to remember it (Esther 8:11, 9:1-19).
      "Let none [of Babylon] escape" (Jer 50:29).
      "Slay utterly old and young, both maids and little children," says God (Ezek 9:6).

      •  Thing is... (none)
        Now I'll get to the reason why I asked this question.  Yes, lots of horrible things happened in the Bible (most of them in the Old Testament), but that doesn't mean that modern-day, mainstream Christians (or Jews, or Muslims) believe that any of that stuff should actually happen.  I wish that liberals who want to argue about the Bible with conservatives wouldn't take the make-long-lists-of-awful-things-that-happen-in-the-Bible tack; I'd prefer that they would take the tack of pointing out how different the behavior is of Bush, Robertson, Dobson, et al is from the things that modern Christians say they believe in ("Thou Shalt not kill," "Thou shalt not steal," etc.)  While the person who wrote you the email seems unreachable to me, there are lots of people who will vote for Democrats/liberals, support separation of church and state, and so on, but will be needlessly alienated by this approach.  

        Also, it may interest you to know that while the Bible contains slavery, and was therefore used to rationalize slavery for many centuries, the abolitionists also found inspiration in the Bible, and the abolitionist movement was primarily a religious movement.  (See the Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, which is very worth reading anyway, for some examples.)  

    •  Re: Where in the bible... (none)
      Check Exodus, the part where the Israelites go rampaging through the middle east killing every Furriner they meet, with the blessing and technical assistance of their loving god.

      Not only does it advocate removing entire nations from the face of the Earth, it also explains what you are to do with captive women and children. I won't bore you with the details, but it involves using breeding to complete the job you started with unprovoked warfare.

      Does that narrow it down for you?

      Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people... it is true that most stupid people are conservative - John Stuart Mill

      by Sarkasba on Tue Sep 20, 2005 at 08:49:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I got that same email last year (4.00)
    from my Republican sister-in-law.  All during the Clinton years and during the Kerry campaign, I clenched my teeth and ignored the email jokes and screeds they (I have three of them) would send me.  Just hit the delete key.....

    But this email finally p***d me off and I replied to everyone on her email distribution, whether I knew them or not.  My rant took a little different direction than yours; my main point was that if praying protected us from catastrophe, how to explain what happened to all the deeply religious people in the path of any natural disasters, say, the hurricanes and mudslides in Mexico, where thousands of people are killed even though it is a very religious country.  I also used the example of people we knew who were deeply religious and who had terrible things happen to them.  And I started out by saying, "This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!"

    I think it startled them, and it made me feel good.  Now I write rebuttals to almost all the right wing emails they send me (although they don't send me very many any more!)  I also send them anti-Repub jokes & news items I find on this site, occasionally.  Don't know if I have changed any minds, but I'm chipping away at them!

    •  Terrific~ (none)
      I tried to send my rant to her whole email list ("undisclosed recipients") but unfortunately the settings wouldn't allow me to do so.
    •  The leech syndrome (none)
      Physicians of previous centuries were convinced that bloodsucking leeches were the cure for any malady. If the patient recovered, it was because they used leeches. If the patient died it was because they didn't use ENOUGH leeches.

      Thus are the fundies convinced that faith, prayer and Bible study are THE cure-all. If they are spared a disaster, it's because they prayed. If they are not spared, it's because somebody didn't pray ENOUGH.

    •  Mexico is deeply religious? (none)
      surely you jest?  Don't you know that most Mexicans are Catholic?  Catholics aren't Christians, so of course they would be punished by God.


  •  You might counter (none)
    with this story, from the "Take This Sabbath Day" episode from the first season of The West Wing:

    You know, you remind me of the man that lived by the river. He heard a radio report that the river was going to rush up and flood the town. And that all the residents should evacuate their homes. But the man said, "I'm religious. I pray. God loves me. God will save me."

    The waters rose up. A guy in a rowboat came along and he shouted, "Hey, hey you! You in there. The town is flooding. Let me take you to safety."

    But the man shouted back, "I'm religious. I pray. God loves me. God will save me."

    A helicopter was hovering overhead. And a guy with a megaphone shouted, "Hey you, you down there. The town is flooding. Let me drop this ladder and I'll take you to safety."

    But the man shouted back that he was religious, that he prayed, that God loved him and that God will take him to safety.

    Well... the man drowned. And standing at the gates of St. Peter, he demanded an audience with God. "Lord," he said, "I'm a religious man, I pray. I thought you loved me. Why did this happen?"

    God said, "I sent you a radio report, a helicopter, and a guy in a rowboat. What the hell are you doing here?"

  •  I hope you used "reply all" (none)
    when you sent that back!  

    That's what I always do since all my crazy RWCF ("Right wing Christian Friends" and yes they are still my friends!) can't seem to grasp the 'Bcc" concept......

    "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." -Governor George W Bush (R-TX)

    by espresso on Tue Sep 20, 2005 at 09:11:16 AM PDT

    •  As I remarked above (none)
      I tried to do that, but my wingnut is smarter ("undisclosed recipients").
      •  drat! (none)
        oh well, maybe the next wingnut......

        "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." -Governor George W Bush (R-TX)

        by espresso on Tue Sep 20, 2005 at 04:11:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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