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There are lies, damn lies and statistics

I never believed LIHOP - the theory that The Bushies knew 9/11was coming and Let It Happen on Purpose... Because of that me and Sherlock Google bump heads here all the time.

But I gotta admit that lately he and others have  amassed an impressive amount of evidence that the SOCOM and the Pro Bush Pentagon big wigs did indeed know about Able Danger and did NOT tell Clinton or investigate it themselves on the 8 months of Clinton-free friendly government they had before 9/11. On the contrary, the links dug out by them show pretty convincingly that evidence was destroyed and the task force disbanded. And that the same behavior continued after 9/11 even DURING the 9/11 task force.

Why go to all this trouble after 9/11 if they could have pinned it on Clinton like Curt Weldom attempted ? And why hide it so much nowadays, that Bush can literally get away with the murder of more than 1,000 in New Orleans ? Can there be an alternative explanation that doesn't include LIHOP ?

Gentleman, I present you Jack Abramoff, the missing link on Able Danger

Abramoff bringing Saudi money to GOP via Atta
I suspect there is another - worse - reason for the cover up: The link of Saudi money, terrorism financial cover ups and GOP fundraising...

How's that again ?
Well, first a disclaimer,  this is just a theory. Not what the scientific community calls a Theory - observable documented and independently verifiable correlation of cause and effect - but the kind of theory behind Intelligent Design, or LIHOP: a mere connecting of dots, some with true correlation and some correlated by mere coincidence, and some crammed in the puzzle by brute force, the thread linking them all provided by a leap of faith. And as such, I ask you to hold on tight for a little bit, while I unravel the thread. Also keep this definition of Theory vs. theory handy, it will be important later on when discussing the pitfalls of Data Mining.

First the data points, apparently not connected:

Able Danger: missing link
In my previous diaries about Able Danger, I have pointed out the reason I believed Able Danger was dismissed: False positives. Any data mining process yields thousands of them and Able danger is no exception. There are reports of a list of thousands of potential terrorists and there are several reports of a final list with only 60 potential terrorists. In data mining this trick can only be done when you have information regarding some of the positives that allows you to drop a lot of them, i.e., when finding a needle in a haystack you know the needle is made of metal, that allows you to fine tune your search just for metal - using a magnet, for instance. That information regarding some of the positives that paired down the list of 20,000 to a list of 60 is the missing link on the Able Danger's story to date.. If you want to delve into the technical details, scroll down to the bottom, where I discuss data mining and it's algorithms in a little more detail and give links to all the gory math that goes behind it.

Able Danger: How did Able Danger zero in on Atta ?
That's the $50 million question. (For that matter, how did it take less than 24 hours for the FBI to zero in on Atta on 9/11 ? See They moved pretty fast for guys in black Florsheims). As I mentioned before, there is no way data mining could have identified just 60, including Mohamed Atta. Not unless the Able Danger people were tipped off about Atta from a piece of information that has yet to be revealed. A piece of info about Atta's terror connections that the FBI, the INS and the CIA obviously didn't have And THAT must be what the Pentagon is hiding so fiercely that it cancelled GOP's own investigation in the matter (4)

Able Danger: How FBI's Data Mining zero in on Atta AFTER 9/11
From several press reports of the time we learn it was using FINANCIAL information, i.e. credit cards, funds transferred, correspondence address for financial accounts...

It was recently reported that a few days after the September 11 attacks, FBI agents visited one of the largest providers of consumer data. They did so to see if the 9/11 terrorists were in the database and quickly found five of them. One of the terrorists had been in the country for less than two years, had 30 credit cards and a quarter million dollars' debt with a payment schedule of $9,800 per month. Mohammed Atta, the ringleader, had also been here less than two years and had 12 addresses under the names Mohammed Atta, Mohammed J. Atta, J. Atta and others..(8)

The article mentioned above (8), by a data mining expert, also confirms that only prior notion of Atta would made that kind of data mining possible:
Surely, their report speculated, with patterns like this, we can use the databases we presently have to ferret out terrorists in our midst. Unfortunately, the answer is, "It depends." .. There are limitations in using these so-called patterns of the agents' observations.. More than likely, the FBI started their search with database queries using the suspected terrorists' names and likely variants. They found the terrorists' records and then noticed the number of credit cards, addresses and the amount of debt. However, they probably would not have known in advance to look for these attributes. Furthermore, the terrorists' records probably didn't show that they had been in the country for only two years; that is knowledge the FBI brought to the search.

We also don't know how easily the observations generalize to other terrorists or how many non-terrorists have these same attributes. Combing the database for people who have a number of credit cards, big debts or multiple addresses would undoubtedly yield both criminals (most of whom aren't terrorists) and perfectly innocent folks. The large number of addresses for Atta may be an even more difficult screening criterion to use, considering that we don't know the names of unknown terrorists, let alone their aliases. It would be nearly impossible to conduct an aggregation across the hundreds of millions of individuals in this database to calculate the number of addresses, especially because all a terrorist would have to do to defeat such a search is use different aliases... we don't have enough known terrorists or a consistent set of behaviors to use data mining to build predictive models. .

Abramoff: Abramoff's ties to Saudi money and possibly terror money (Al Qaeda, Hamas)
A terrorist leader on trial, Sami Al-Arian, visited White House 2 months before 9/11 (5) Guess who got Al-Arian into the WH ? Grover Norquist and Jack Abramoff. More on Al Arian:

Al Arian is a Palestinian-American computer engineer and university professor (USF) who was arrested in 2005 for his involvement in the funding of terrorists. Richard A. Clarke said the following about Al Arian in his 2003 testimony to the Senate Banking: From his home and office in Tampa Florida, Sami al-Arian, the indicted North American leader of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, allegedly coordinated the movement of fund(s) from the government of Iran to suicide bombers in West Bank and Gaza.... (5)

Al-Arian [was] invited to a White House briefing given by Bush aide Karl Rove in June 2001 -- against the advice of the Secret Service -- [and was] honored with a front-row seat (5). But this isn't the only tie to terrorism that Abramoff has. In fact the ties are so numerous it makes you dizzy. I got dizzy just listing a dozen of them in my diary mentioned above (5). But this tie of Abramoff to terror money deserves highlighting, as it will be relevant later on:
THE BRAD BLOG: "Atta's Big Gamble. Plus: Jack Abramoff's Link To A Mysterious Saudi -- And Perhaps To Al Qaeda"
The Mysteries of 9/11 Run Deep

...As Kate Camborat the TPM Cafe notes, Abramoff did PR work for a Saudi billionaire named Saleh Abdullah Kamel, chairman of the General Council for Islamic Banks. [Saleh] Kamel sure needed a good PR person. According to a number of published accounts.. he has another good buddy -- a fellow named Osama Bin Laden... Kamel is also the chairman of Dallah al Baraka Group (DBG), which is suspected of having ties to al Qaeda and other extremist groups, and he was also the co-founder and large shareholder of Al Shamal Bank in Sudan, Osama bin Laden's bank of choice from 1983 onward. He was listed as being one of the seven "main individual sponsors of terrorism" in this report by French researcher Jean-Charles Brisard submitted to the UN Security Council in December 2002. (You might remember that Omar al-Bayoumi, who befriended and provided money to two of the 9/11 hijackers, was once an assistant to the Director of Finance for Dallah Avco, a DBG company that works with the Saudi aviation authority. And the WSJ has reported that the United States believes the Dallah al-Baraka Bank, another DBG company, was also used by al-Qaeda.)

Kamel's name also appeared in the "Golden Chain," a roster seized by Bosnian authorities in Sarajevo in March 2002 listing Saudi donors to bin Laden and his associates; and he was named as a defendant in two Sept. 11th related lawsuits..  One of Kamel's companies, Dallah Avco, made extensive payments (according to a Los Angeles Ties story) to al-Bayoumi, the Saudi who paid rent for the 9/11 hijackers lodging in San Diego

Abramoff: Is he a Republican bag man and chief money launderer of a GOP slush fund ?
This just in from Daily Kos: Josh Marshall Broke the Abramoff Scandal Code..(6):

On paper, Jack Abramoff was a lobbyist. And he made a great deal of money for himself. But if you think of Jack Abramoff as just a crooked lobbyist most of the facts coming out about what he did don't make a great deal of sense. He was a key player in a very big political machine and he was managing a slush fund.

Look at the pattern: Notice how all Abramoff's clients seemed to get 'bilked' out of large sums of money that ended up going to other conservative foundations, consulting firms, Ralph Reed, lobby shops, Grover Norquist, astroturf organizers, politicians, etc.? All of them part of Washington's Republican infrastructure?

Then the theory

Abramoff the GOP bagman siphons money from Saudi elite to GOP
This one is pretty much a safe bet:

  • We suspect he is GOP bag man
  • We know he is a lobbyist  on behalf of Saleh Kamel a very rich billionaire with ties to terror funding...
  • We know he is a promoter of Saudi pets to the GOP high command. Including very questionable ones such as Islamic Jihad's Sami Al-Arian and Kamel's buddy Alamoudi of known Al Qaeda ties and also a guest at prestigious GOP events
  • We know Abramoff is knee deep with casino owners
  • we know casinos in Miami were frequently used to bring in petro-dollars into US(7)

Abramoff knew of Mohamed Atta because he brought Saudi money into US ?
Ok this is the huge leap of faith I'm doing to connect the Abramoff thread to Able Danger: Getting back to Cannonfire's Joseph Cannon post at Bradblog (7)  we see:

  • how Atta allegedly has ties to a casino owner that disappeared on 9/11, named Makram Chams
  • how that casino owner had ties to petro-dollars being laundered
  • we know the FBI doing data mining on Atta AFTER 9/11 found out that Atta and other hijackers had several credit cards and moved huge amounts of money (8),
  • how the Pentagon and the WH have the bad habit of trying to suppress pre 9/11 information on Atta's activities
  • how allegedly law enforcement was told to take it's hands of Atta several times before 9/11
  • how Atta is tied to Al Qaeda money
  • how Saudi money and possibly Al Qaeda money is tied to Saleh Kamel and to Abramoff

Abramoff or his friends at GOP told top brass to stop Able Danger before 9/11
Taking the leap of faith further: IF Atta was part of a money laundering scheme to get petro-dollars in US and IF Saleh Kamel and his dubious friends were part of it, then someone in the GOP side had to know of Atta's role in bringing in the cash. That someone must have been Abramoff or belong to his network. And that someone would have information to tie Atta to Saudi money and huge sums getting into and out of US, allegedly the way Able Danger was able to zero in on Atta (At least we know the FBI doing data mining on Atta AFTER 9/11 found out that he and other hijackers had several credit cards and moved huge amounts of money (8), )

How does Data Mining work: Theory vs. theory
Data mining is nothing more than trying to connect several dots with a common thread that differentiates them from the rest. Precisely what I described as a "theory", a mere connecting of dots, some with true correlation and some correlated by mere coincidence, except that the thread that links data mining dots is based on math rather than a leap of faith and hopefully there are no false results crammed in by an overzealous mathematician.

But just because we use math instead of faith it doesn't mean it is more accurate. False causal relationships between data points happen all the time in math. Remember the saying ? There are lies, damn lies and statistics. For instance, it is possible to find a perfectly mathematically precise inverse correlation between the number of pirates and Global Warming as a snarky physicist Bobby Henderson, bane of the Kansas Board of Education and faithful prophet of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster found out (3)

A scientist trying to build a Theory with capital T would dismiss this kind of spurious statistical correlation by using several mathematical and scientific protocols aimed at eliminating coincidence and researcher bias from the sample of dots to be connected such as randomized double blind trials where not even the researcher knows which patients "fit" his pet theory, independent verification by unbiased colleagues, etc... But data mining algorithms have no such luxury so they come up with a huge number of false positives. (And biased self deluded prophets claiming to be "scientists" also have no such luxury, often by their own choice, but that's another diary!)

False Positives: The scourge of Data mining
Paring down a list of positives is the "art" of Data Mining, only the most advanced algorithms can do it (2),  But this approach has one major drawback: A lot of the positives dropped out of the list are true positives. On the needle in the haystack example, if you concentrated on metal needles you would be missing some matches, i.e. you wouldn't find ALL possible needles in that haystack because this approach would ignore crochet needles made of plastic, but you would definitely find all the metal needles a lot faster. In the case of Able Danger that wouldn't be a problem: instead of finding ALL terrorists in a list of 20,000 you are left with finding SOME terrorists in a list of 60. As 60 is better than nothing this result is acceptable and a lot more workable than being forced to investigate 20,000.

..Suppose we had a collection of algorithms that has a false positive rate of only 0.1 percent - extraordinarily good for a problem of this complexity. That would mean 220,000 false positives! There are not enough investigators to investigate every false positive.. Even if we concentrated only on non-citizens, we would still have more than 20,000 false positives to be vetted (1).

Why I don't believe LIHOP
 Not that it doesn't make sense. It is just to horrific and painful to contemplate the possibility that we have in the White House people capable of letting a man made volcanic eruption shower New Yorkers with the ashes of 2,900 of their comrades. I just can't do it. To do so would fill me with so much worry and despair that I decided, consciously, to look the other way. I tell you this particular tidbit because I believe this is the reason so many Americans refuse to see any wrongs on Bush: It is just too painful and worrisome to face the possibility.
Cross posted at Booman Tribune


Update [2005-10-1 17:45:25 by lawnorder]: And we have confirmation of the hands off on money laundering

Letter to Thomas Kean from Sibel Edmonds

.. To this date the public has not been told of intentional blocking of intelligence, and has not been told that certain information, despite its direct links, impacts and ties to terrorist related activities, is not given to or shared with Counterterrorism units, their investigations, and countering terrorism related activities. This was the case prior to 9/11, and remains in effect after 9/11. If Counterintelligence receives information that contains money laundering, illegal arms sale, and illegal drug activities, directly linked to terrorist activities; and if that information involves certain nations, certain semi-legit organizations, and ties to certain lucrative or political relations in this country, then, that information is not shared with Counterterrorism, regardless of the possible severe consequences. In certain cases, frustrated FBI agents cited `direct pressure by the State Department,' and in other cases `sensitive diplomatic relations' is cited. The Department of Justice Inspector General received detailed and specific information and evidence regarding this issue (Please refer to DOJ-IG report Re: Sibel Edmonds and FBI Translation, provided to you prior to the completion of your report)...

After almost three years the American people still do not know that thousands of lives can be jeopardized under the unspoken policy of `protecting certain foreign business relations.' The victims family members still do not realize that information and answers they have sought relentlessly for over two years has been blocked due to the unspoken decisions made and disguised under `safeguarding certain diplomatic relations.'

Originally posted to lawnorder on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 01:10 AM PDT.

Poll

I think the GOP big wigs ordered the cover up of Atta's face because he was part of Abramoff's scheme to siphon Saudi money into GOP

1%5 votes
1%9 votes
3%14 votes
8%41 votes
78%358 votes
5%23 votes
1%7 votes

| 457 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (3.93)
    < clink >

    Just like Welfare, Modern Medicine must end: 60 years of it and we still have illness in US

    by lawnorder on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 01:11:18 AM PDT

  •  Nice (1.00)
    I'm going to interpret this diary as a brilliant smackdown of the kind of nonsense that Sherlock Google regularly puts out.
    •  Alas no one will see it (none)
      While his diaries are always on the rec list...

      Just like Welfare, Modern Medicine must end: 60 years of it and we still have illness in US

      by lawnorder on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 02:45:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I read it (none)
          Then there's the Abramoff associate who was just arrested, Safavian (isn't that him?)  He had terrorist organization ties as I recall.  He was also in charge of procurement for things like Katrina relief when he got nabbed.  

        Winning without Delay.

        by ljm on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 04:29:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  *both* are charged with working for islamist banks (none)
          Don't forget Oct. 5 is when the Able Danger whistleblowers are supposed to testify per Arlen Specter's press release.  Put it on your calendar -- it's not this Monday but 2 Mondays away.

          Let me cut and paste some stuff to back up the diarist's discussion:

          Conservatives are pretending all-of-a-sudden to express outrage:

          But Safavian's not just tied to a dirty lobbyist. He's also tied to a convicted terrorist and a suspected terrorist supporter. Lobbying disclosure forms revealed last year that he has been in the employ of Abdurahman Alamoudi, an avowed supporter of Hamas and Hezbollah. Prosecutors have discovered evidence that he has links to al-Qaeda. At the time, Safavian waved aside any affiliation to Alamoudi. He insisted that he was really lobbying for a client named Jamal al Barzinji. That revelation did little to clear Safavian's name: A federal affidavit identifies Barzinji as the ringleader of a group suspected of aiding terrorists.

          We also now know that Abramoff has been lobbying for Islamist banks with ties to terrorists.

          Safavian WAS chief of procurement policy in the Office of Management and Budget for the Bush administration at the beginning of this week; now he's out of jail on bail.  He had to quickly resign before they handcuffed him and dragged him to jail.  Yes, mark this as the first but not the last indictment of Bush administration officials who have ties to terrorists.

          Oh and per that DCCC link above, one can extrapolate that the FBI is in on it, God forbid:

          The AMC's [American Muslim Council] success at dissembling its true purposes was underscored when a spokesman for FBI Director Robert Mueller described it in 2002 as the "the most mainstream Muslim group in the United States."

          Bush and 9/11? Oh yes.  He LIHOP for political gain:  Repubs and especially Bushco sold their souls to the devil and now the devil is coming for payment.  

          Jesus: "Destroy this Temple" - Gospel of John

          by The Gnostic on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 06:41:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The depth and scale of the criminality (none)
            of this administration is staggering.

            I wonder, do we have enough legit law enforcement with the power to actually do something about it though? It would appear some are trying.

            "We got the force necessary to deal with the security situation." - George W. Bush, July 2, 2003

            by Pescadero Bill on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 09:09:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  This is Sherlock Google (4.00)
      Both Lawnorder's theory and my LIHOP dot-connecting are not mutually exclusive. Both could be true.

      Lawnorder, however, revealed why he and others so desperately wants to avoid even THINKING about LIHOP.  Because it's just too terrible to contemplate.

      THis deep emotion of DENIAL, and I felt it myself for a few days after 9-11 when I started wondering why no jet fighters showed up over Manhattan FOR TWO FUCKING HOURS.

      See, LIHOP is not just Able Danger, it's all the other clues that happened before, during and after 9-11.  

      Now what does the obvious NORAD stand-down FOR TWO FUCKING HOURS have to do with Abramoff and Atta being a bag man for the GOP.

      Obviously nothing.

      That's what turned me to LIHOP.  No jets.  Able Danger and all the confirmed timelines just confirmed it.

      Now tell me, Lawnorder, why did Abramoff call off the jet fighters on 9-11?  How does your emotional fear of the truth come up with a "theory" to explain that?

      THe truth is there is no good explanation for this--except LIHOP.  Please try to get over your wish that Neo-Cons are not Fascists.  They are and they act exactly as Fascists have acted in the past.

      Know you don't want to believe it.

      If you don't want to believe bad things about President Cheney, I suppose you think he invaded Iraq, killed a 100,000 Iraqis, just so he could "free" them.  

      OK, I'll give you a hint.  He invaded for the OIL.  The 3,000 dead on 9-11 were allowed to die for the same reason as the 100,000 Iraqis and the 2,000 US service people.

      The Neo-Cons believe they are here to save the US from not having any OIL.

      It's spelled O-I-L.

      Don't misunderestimate the way it makes people evil--just like gold in earlier times.

      DENIAL is not just a river in Egypt you know.

      •  If Bushco was capable of lying this country (none)
        into war, why wouldn't it be capable of LIHOP?
      •  The reason I don't believe it... (none)
        ...is that have been so incompetent in everything they've done...that I find it hard to believe that they pulled this off.
        •  The thing about LIHOP (none)
          LIHOP doesn't require them to do anything more than Let It Happen On Purpose.

          All they had to do was "[s]weep it all up. Things related and unrelated." That, they don't seem to have done very well, except in the case of the physical evidence.

          If you look back at what happened, it wasn't very smooth. The official story changed every day, officials contradicted each other on a regular basis, accounts and witnesses appeared and disappeared. Bush was completely poleaxed.

          Had the country not rallied around the Administration in the wake of 9/11, we wouldn't have had to wait so long for people to start asking hard questions.

        •  What is incompetence (none)
          The fact that is it took a devastating hurricane to show most people in America what most us here at kos already knew.  Sadly we all know the Bush and the Repugs have had their way without much consequence.  Add to the recipe complacent Democratic Party Congressional Leaders and you have the ability to get away with stuff - even weird shit like this.

          Some may say that Bush is not clever enough - but then why do you think that he refers to Karl Rove as the architect.  I think his designs go far beyond what we may have imagined before.  The Rove-Abramoff connections are now known.  Do you think that Saudi terrorists get into the Whitehouse with out Rove's approval?  Lawnorder give us a Rove connection in your diary, because we know Bush is too fucking dumb to orchestrate this cover-up, LIHOP, MIHOP or any complex theory of x+y =a/3r(b+c/q).

          •  Rove connection (none)
            He met with Islamic Jihad's bag man in US at the WH before 9/11, at the urge of Grover Norquist and Abramoff

            Daily Kos: Terrorist leader on Trial visited White House 2 months before 9/11

            Sami Al Arian visit to the White House in June 2001
            The article below is confirmed by this WH transcript of Ari Fleischer's comments on Al Arian's son being expelled from a meeting Press Briefing by Ari Fleischer - June 29, 2001

                The Terrorist Who Came To The White House
                Feb 2003 - Sami Al-Arian and seven other people were arrested in Tampa last week on charges of financing, organizing, and materially abetting Palestinian Islamic Jihad.. prosecutors laid out in some detail the role played by Al-Arian, a professor at the University of South Florida, as the terrorists' chief US operative

                A résumé like that should have made Al-Arian radioactive -- the kind of person anyone with political ambitions or decent instincts would shun. So why in the world would he be treated as a friend and ally by -- of all people -- George W. Bush?

                Why, for example, did Bush make a point of posing for pictures with Al-Arian and his family during a 2000 campaign stop in Tampa? Why was Al-Arian not only invited to a White House briefing given by Bush aide Karl Rove in June 2001 -- against the advice of the Secret Service -- but honored with a front-row seat? Why was his son Abdullah invited to yet another White House meeting a few days later? And when the Secret Service properly pronounced Abdullah a security risk and removed him from the building, why did Bush bend over backward to apologize and order his security staff and spokesman to issue apologies as well?

            Sami Al Arian's friends in high places: Grover Norquist
            On 10/23/2003 John Loftus attends Countdown with our favorite MSNBC man Olbermann

            How could these guys operate for more than a decade immune from prosecution? And, the answer is coming out in a very strange place. What Alamoudi and al-Arian have in common is a guy named Grover Norquist. He's the super lobbyist. Newt Gingrich's guy, the one the NRA calls on, head of American taxpayers. He is the guy that was hired by Alamoudi to head up the Islamic institute and he's the registered agent for Alamoudi, personally, and for the Islamic Institute.

                   Grover Norquist's best friend is Karl Rove, the White House chief of staff, and apparently Norquist was able to fix things. He got extreme right wing Muslim people to be the gatekeepers in the White House. That's why moderate Americans couldn't speak out after 9/11. Moderate Muslims couldn't get into the White House because Norquist's friends were blocking their access.

            Just like Welfare, Modern Medicine must end: 60 years of it and we still have illness in US

            by lawnorder on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 10:53:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  asdf (none)
          Incompetent they are, but they didn't have to do much except turn a blind eye, and let the chips fall were they may so to speak...I think they were aware that planes were going to be involved.
      •  Doesn't seem to be a lot of oil coming out of Iraq (none)
        but there does seem to be a hell of a lot of money going to Halliburton and other defense contractors.

        Grok Your World

        grok: to understand something in a deep and empathic way

        by Grok Your World on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 08:27:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I know you are incorrect on one thing (none)
        It didn't take two hours for jet fighters to get to Manhattan.

        As I was walking through the cloud after the first tower came down, I heard them.  I remember, because at first I thought it was more attack planes.

      •  And another dot/parallel is the Katrina (4.00)
        non-response, followed by the call for a military response to a "catastrophic-like event":

        MR. McCLELLAN: Well, again, if you look at existing law, I talked about the purpose of existing law. The purpose of existing law really was aimed at quelling rebellions or to restore law and order...
        ....
        MR. McCLELLAN: The purpose that we're talking about here is a major catastrophic event like a category five hurricane, like a disease outbreak of avian flu, for instance -- that's something the President is very focused on -- or a large-scale terrorist attack....
        ....
        Q But would he do this -- ... put the U.S. military in control of what's going on domestically and the military --

        MR. McCLELLAN: Well, again, as he said today, it's to help stabilize the situation.

        Q Would the President go over their heads if he thought it was absolutely necessary to put this in place --
        ....
        MR. McCLELLAN: Well, the Northern Command was set up after the attacks of September 11th. It was set up for the purpose of defending the homeland. And that includes helping to defend the homeland when it comes to catastrophic events. They have played an important role in Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Rita, and it's Northern Command that was responsible for overseeing the operations of the United States military in those two hurricanes.
        Link

        So, NorthCom is created after 9-11. General Honore is in charge of the Katrina and Rita clean-ups. Where's FEMA? The National Response Plan gathers dust. And the stage is set for dismantling Posse Comitatus. It's all part of the same plot.

        Robert Scheer does a good job of tying it together this morning in the LA Times
        When connected turns into corrupted

        CRONY CAPITALISM is the name of the Republican game. Their slogan is "take care of your friends and leave the risks of the free market for the suckers." That would be John Q. Public.

        From Halliburton's overcharging in Iraq to Enron's manipulation of the California energy crisis and now the emerging hurricane reconstruction boondoggle, we witness what happens when the federal government is turned into a glorified help desk and ATM machine for politically connected corporations.

        But the defining case study on the deep corruption of the Bush administration and the GOP is emerging from the myriad investigations of well-connected Republican fundraiser and lobbyist Jack Abramoff. For starters, Abramoff, a $100,000-plus fundraiser for George W. Bush's presidential campaigns, is under federal indictment on wire fraud and conspiracy charges. He is also under congressional and FBI investigations.

      •  LIHOP is too attractive (none)
        because it makes everything make too much sense. So does Lawnorder's theory. I think you're both wrong and that the truth is rather simpler: 9/11 happened through sheer incompetence and shortsightedness.

        I realize this statement would never make the recommended diaries, but I believe it's true. The inner circle of BushCo is a bunch of sociopaths. Scroll down through the article for details. They truly cannot create and execute long-range or complex plans. They seem intelligent because they have a fantastic PR machine, absolutely no oversight from the worthless Dem leadership and a compliant media machine made up of profit-driven oligarchs who view simplicity and patriotism as a good recipe for high ad revenues.

        But they're not intelligent. Just look at the list of botched and bungled and half-assed plans that they've tried and failed to bring to birth. Look at the utter failure of the Social Security scam, for example. The only way you can reconcile that with LIHOP is that they let themselves fuck SS up on purpose -- and for what? Now you need a new master plan. It just doesn't hold water that they deliberately let 9/11 happen. There are intelligent people in the outer ring of the Inner Party, but they're not at the executive level. The neocons who "planned" the Iraq War aren't stupid in the traditional sense of the word, but they're the high-achieving sort of sociopath: they let their grandiose plan replace notional reality and really believed the troops would be greeted with flowers.

        That's the level of stupid we're dealing with here, folks. Yes, there were people in the Pentagon who knew something like 9/11 was coming -- but they weren't at a high enough level to break the delusions of the people who surround Bush. And yes, Abramoff is near the center of a giant ring of theft, extortion and bribery, and it's only going to get worse -- but 9/11 wasn't "allowed" to happen so as not to upset the applecart.

        Remember, we're the reality-based people:

        Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

        And both of you are flying off into a fantasy land where sociopathic criminals are capable of creating and executing complex plans. And they aren't.

      •  Gotcha (none)
        "DENIAL is not just a river in Egypt you know."

        You left out a comma, which exposes the fallacy in your whole crazy theory. I suspect that you know very well that commas indicate a possible change in subject. Who's in denial now?
        The truth is, Michael Moore is quite fat. There's just no getting around that (or him). To deny Michael Moore's rotundity is to live in fantasy. Ashcroft and Pentagon higher ups were warned off commercial aircraft because Michael Moore was so very fat. The White House refused to investigate months of warnings because they were confounded by Michael Moore's frustratingly persistent obesity. And numbers. More numbers than you can shake a stick at, proving that cheaters never prosper.
        Get a clue!

        The dubya stands for freedom.

        by paraphrase on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 09:21:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  One of the problems with all discussion of LIHOP (none)
        Is that it treats the Bush Administration as one seamless unit. I favor the term BushCo, which means I'm at least as guilty as most.

        But BushCo is not seamless. We're seeing the splintering of the Administration now, under the stress of possible (and conflicting) Plame indictments, in the absence of Powell who at least unified the criminals against him, and in desperation at falling poll numbers.

        Treating BushCO as seamless makes LIHOP harder to prove. As some have pointed out, Bush is just too stupid to pull it off. Subsequent incompetence suggests they couldn't have pulled if off competently. There are some (like Wolfie) who at least seem to have higher goals for the NeoCon project.

        But when we treat the Bush Adminsitration as a series of factions (originally, Bush/Rove/Condi, Dick and Rummy and those who worked for Rummy plus Bolton, Powell, and I'm forgetting some), then we see how LIHOP could be possible for, say, Cheney (who, after all, was in charge for all of 9/11). But something else was true of Bush. Perhaps that his lifetime handlers (including Osama's brother) knew what an easy mark he'd make--and they made it.

        So perhaps this entire discussion of LIHOP would be more fruitful if participants in it were more careful about who they believed LIHOP, and who were just willing enablers.

        This is the way democracy ends Not with a bomb But with a gavel -Max Baucus

        by emptywheel on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 09:33:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Cheney was running the thing from the top (none)
          I wouldn't be surprised if Bush was kept out of the loop.  He's too stupid to be in the loop.

          Yes, that's right.  Sherlock Google himself is saying BUSH DID NOT KNOW, so he did not LIHOP.

          But President Cheney did.

          Now if you are a right wing neo-con and Scooter Libby or some other hack calls you and says, Cheney needs you to do this or that, they don't ask "Why?", they just ask "When?"

          Remember Paul O'Neil's description of the meeting when Cheney put the second tax bill in front of Bush, and O'Neil said the President pushed the paper away and went "another tax cut for the rich?  Isn't it the middle class' turn?"

          Cheney pushed the paper back and said "No. Sign it."

          THe Vice President giving orders to the President.

          Just a theory, but the clueless Bush did not know, so that the moron could go on TV later and say we were attacked with conviction.

          That's why Cheney and Bush testified together at the 9-11 COmmission, it explains a lot.

          So LawnOrder, you can feel better now.  The faux President did not LIHOP, but the real President did.  

  •  dont know .. (4.00)
    i'd like to know the truth, but i dont expect it to be revealed the next century ..

    how many people in the states believe that Oswald killed Kennedy ?! One can sell everything to people

    Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. -- Albert Einstein

    by TheGerman on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 02:35:32 AM PDT

  •  Someone Atta check this one out (none)
    On the days leading up to 9/11.  The passenger lists of the same four flights.  How many Arab names on those flights?  19 or so?  If you averaged the number of Saudis on those flights from ten days previous?  How many Saudis were on those flights on 9/11 that weren't involved in the hijacking?  0 or so?
    The thing that blows me away is the theory that the FBI wouldn't have gone into Massoui's laptop without a warrant.  The "law" in this country acts first and asks questions later based on the theory that a very small percent of illegally obtained evidence will be successfully challenged.  With that little lie, with the knowledge from that laptop and a month in Crawford, they could have maneuvered 9/11 perfectly. Add that to the ENRON collapse timeline and whamo.
      You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to believe this administration was involved in 9/11, you have to be an idiot not to.
     

    "The trouble with the rat race is that even if you win, you're still a rat." Lily Tomlin

    by tRueffert on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 03:46:16 AM PDT

    •  Moussoui plus Phoenix memo (none)
      Two separate FBI investigations linking terrorists to flight schools. 52 FAA warnings between April 1 and Sept. 10, 2001;

      WaPo reported: "The Federal Aviation Administration received repeated warnings in the months before Sept. 11, 2001, that al Qaeda hoped to attack airlines, according to a previously undisclosed report by the commission that investigated the terrorist attacks."

      The infamous August 6 PDB titled "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US" said,;

      "Nevertheless, FBI information since that time [1988] indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks including recent surveillance of Federal buildings in New York.

      The FBI is conducting approximately 70 investigations throughout the U.S. that it considers Bin Laden-related."

      Mohammed Atta and Marwan al-Shehhi had their Visa's filed by the Florida flight school they were attending, the address listed is the flight school. But it doesn't stop there.

      Washington Post - 9/16/01
      "Two of 19 suspects named by the FBI, Saeed Alghamdi and Ahmed Alghamdi, have the same names as men listed at a housing facility for foreign military trainees at Pensacola. Two others, Hamza Alghamdi and Ahmed Alnami, have names similar to individuals listed in public records as using the same address inside the base. In addition, a man named Saeed Alghamdi graduated from the Defense Language Institute at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, while men with the same names as two other hijackers, Mohamed Atta and Abdulaziz Alomari, appear as graduates of the U.S. International Officers School at Maxwell Air Force Base, Ala., and the Aerospace Medical School at Brooks Air Force Base in San Antonio, respectively."

      Three of the hijackers listed their address on drivers licenses and car registrations as the Naval Air Station in Pensacola, Fla.

      And yet somehow, we were "still outwardly postured" [Myers] and "No one expected planes to be used as weapons" [Rice]. Well General Myers, Dr. Rice, NORAD did:

      USA Today: "In the two years before the Sept. 11 attacks, the North American Aerospace Defense Command conducted exercises simulating what the White House says was unimaginable at the time: hijacked airliners used as weapons to crash into targets and cause mass casualties.

      One of the imagined targets was the World Trade Center. In another exercise, jets performed a mock shootdown over the Atlantic Ocean of a jet supposedly laden with chemical poisons headed toward a target in the United States. In a third scenario, the target was the Pentagon -- but that drill was not run after Defense officials said it was unrealistic, NORAD and Defense officials say.

      NORAD, in a written statement, confirmed that such hijacking exercises occurred. It said the scenarios outlined were regional drills, not regularly scheduled continent-wide exercises."

      •  Republican = Terrorists (none)
        Conservatives are attempting to express outrage:

        But Safavian's not just tied to a dirty lobbyist. He's also tied to a convicted terrorist and a suspected terrorist supporter. Lobbying disclosure forms revealed last year that he has been in the employ of Abdurahman Alamoudi, an avowed supporter of Hamas and Hezbollah. Prosecutors have discovered evidence that he has links to al-Qaeda. At the time, Safavian waved aside any affiliation to Alamoudi. He insisted that he was really lobbying for a client named Jamal al Barzinji. That revelation did little to clear Safavian's name: A federal affidavit identifies Barzinji as the ringleader of a group suspected of aiding terrorists.

        We also now know that Abramoff has been lobbying for Islamist banks with ties to terrorists.

        Jesus: "Destroy this Temple" - Gospel of John

        by The Gnostic on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 07:46:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  My LTE to the NYT (4.00)
    Here's what I wrote this morning in response to their Cronies at the Till editorial. I think Abramoff is the linch pin to a lot'o'shite, all interconnected. If we can get some part of the media to get on this as the penultimate investigative opportunity, we'll make great strides: To the Editor, Thank you for stating this pressing concern, but now a suggestion for the NY Times. Review the headline font size you used during the Clinton Whitewater "scandal", which netted the Clinton's a minus $55,000, and apply that to a very interconnected story about cronyism and corruption in this Administration. Tie together the $8 billion lost in Iraq under crony Paul Bremer, the crony appointment of Mike Brown and a host of others, in fact any and all appointments associated to Abramoff and Albaugh, and any and all no-bid contracts to Haliburton and other major Bush contributors, tie it all together using your best investigative journalists, and pound it as relentlessly on page one as you did Whitewater, which cost the American taxpayers nothing, and Monica, which hurt no one but the people involved. America will read you with baited breath, for nothing in my 55 years comes close to the level of corruption we are seeing now. We need a press to tie it all together. Are you game?

    The battle for Helms Deep is over. The battle for Middle Earth has just begun.

    by Mithrandir on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 03:58:03 AM PDT

    •  "Bated" breath (none)
      But other than that, good letter!

      I carried water for the elephant; Back and forth to the well I went; My arms got sore and my back got bent; But I couldn't fill up that elephant

      by Sylvester McMonkey Mcbean on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 05:59:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  arrghh (none)
        i hate when i mispell. did i just mispell mispell? i'm so confused...hey, thanks for all the 4's. it was a 6AM popped-into-my-head kind of thing, after reading a bunch of abramoff related studd on kos and buzz. I hope NYT prints it. someone let me know if I miss it.

        The battle for Helms Deep is over. The battle for Middle Earth has just begun.

        by Mithrandir on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 08:37:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  linchpin to a lot o'shite, indeed! (4.00)
      Wish I could give you more "4"'s - at least one just for that phrase.

      What worried me when I first read about the K Street Project - was it back in the '90's I first read that phrase? - is that it seemed so unamerican, so, well,  (sorry about this) - Sicilian.  I didn't believe that it could be gotten away with, but then, I thought Republicans were wrong, but did love America.  Now it is clear that the only thing they really do love, is money.  Religion and ideology don't mean shit to them unless it can get them money.  If laying aside religion and/or ideology gets them money, they will lay them aside. If laying aside the lives of our military, urban poor, or even a major US city, they will lay them aside for the money.  It's all, every fucking bit of it, about the fucking money, isn't it?  Why else would Abramoff, the devout Jew, devout "republican", real 'Murrican, do business with Arab Muslims?  Why else would baby face Mr. Christian Ralph Reed do business with gambling Indians, as well as Mr. Jewish Bag Man Shakedown Clown Abramoff himself?  What they all really love, is the fucking money.  They don't even love their kids and grandkids, who will be stuck in a stinking hot hellhole of Earth after they ruin it, with no fuel for their obscenely expensive cars, and no power for their laptops, and only tainted meat and poisoned water to eat, who won't even be able to find batteries for their sex toys.  These criminals just want their money, now - fuck everything and anybody that gets in their way, including their own posterity.

  •  My lIttle Bunny (none)
    The poet in me says that this theory would explain Bush's facial expression during the my little bunny moments and his flight to nowhere on 9/11.  Says a lot about why we won't capture bin Laden too.
  •  A lot of good research here... (4.00)
    ...but are you taking into account the fact that Abramoff is a devout Jew?

    "Devout" being a somewhat malleable term here - in Abramoff's world, I guess you're Okay with God if you lie cheat steal badmouth slander and not Okay with God if you eat pork and shellfish...

    He is also very pro-Israel.

    Ironic then, wouldn't it be, that Abramoff has made a killing off the fundies and off abetting Arab terrorists?

    I guess when you get down to it, only two things matter for these guys - money and power.  They trump everything.

    "The responsibility of government for the public safety is absolute and requires no mandate." -Winston Churchill

    by hopesprings on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 04:59:09 AM PDT

  •  More on Abramoff ties to terrorism. (4.00)
    I will not weigh in on LIHOP, other than to say that I do not think Bush and all are that smart.

    It is more likely that the little compromises and addiction to off-the-book financing that have fueled the GOP rise to power have and will cause breakdowns. 9-11 was one, so was Enron, So was Katrina. There will be more.

    Abramoff is involved in the money end of all of this effort to establish one-party rule in the US. He is (obviously) not the brains. If I had to guess I would give that role to Norquist, Rove and (especially) Ed Gillespie.

    There are a couple of other Abramoff/Al Qaeda connections you might was to add to your dots.

    First the recent one. Soon after 9-11, the AP in Florida reported that Atta and other 9-11 terrorist were frequent guest on SunCruz gambling ships. I have never been able to find the source AP story or the name of the reporter who wrote it, but it has been the source of comment in many blogs, such as Cannonfire

    Until verified one should take this for what it is worth, but I wouldn't be surprise to see other international groups taking advantage of a large money laundering network created for use of the GOP (and SunCruz was just a small link in this network). Especially if these groups had a twenty-plus-year relationship with off-the-books GOP fundraising.

    And that is the second link.

    Back in 1984 Abramoff work closely with Ollie North to covertly move funds and support to any anti-communist movements across the globe. In the mid eighties Jack (and Grover) travel the globe meeting with these groups.

    A June 16, 1985 LA Times piece by Doyle McManus reported:

    And Lewis Lehrman -- a millionaire conservative activist who airlifted Nicaraguan, Afghan and Laotian opposition figures into the Angolan bush two weeks ago for a first-ever convention of "freedom fighters" -- has undertaken a new project: a professionally staffed Washington lobbying office for the rebels.

    "These guys haven't really been able to articulate to Congress how they should be helped," said Jack Abramoff, a former Republican National Committee staff member and Lehrman aide. "We hope to give them some help on that. We see this as a contribution to the overall Reagan Doctrine. Every time we've worked with anybody in the Administration, we've gotten nothing but help. . . . It's a trend, and we're on the move.

    The meeting took place in Jamba, Angola in June of 85. There are many more articles from the eighties about Jack's early days as the secret GOP bag man. A lexis search on Abramoff or Lerhman will reveal more.

    And then there is Jack's work as the lobbyist for the South African police during Apartheid, but this comment is already way too long

    •  I've heard almost nothing about Gillespie (none)
      so I'd like to know why you ascribe such a big role to him. Rove and Norquist, who are supposedly shadowy figures, get a lot more attention. Anything you can tell us about Gillespie, either in a comment or a diary, would be helpful.

      "There's more than one answer to these questions, pointing me in a crooked line" - Indigo Girls

      by AlanF on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 05:55:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This ties in well (none)
      with a diary that was posted a few days ago about Abramoff's and Norquist's many ties to Islamist groups.  (If I could find it I would link.)

      For a while now I have been aware of these links, but didn't really know what to do with that knowledge--how it fit in to place with everything else.  

      Lawnorder's diary makes an interesting argument that these ties may be very significant after all.

      I carried water for the elephant; Back and forth to the well I went; My arms got sore and my back got bent; But I couldn't fill up that elephant

      by Sylvester McMonkey Mcbean on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 06:04:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Question (none)
      I searched the dKosopedia and cannot find what LIHOP means???

      Thanks in advance!

      •  Let It Happen On Purpose (none)
        The government LIHOP to have an excuse to go to war in Iraq.

        Liberal, Christian, Feminazi, Mom.

        by TeresaInPa on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 06:14:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  as opposed to MIHOP (none)
        Made it Happen on Purpose...

        My beliefs waver somewhere in between those two options.

        You are a catastrophe that walks like a man. -- Bill Maher on Shrubya.

        by missreporter on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 08:25:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm afraid I have to agree (none)
          with you on that. I know I'll get pegged as one of the tinfoilhatters, but nothing this administration does shocks me anymore. And LIHOP/MIHOP makes a sick, logical sense when you think about their big picture game plan.
          •  i can't keep it quiet anymore (none)
            in fear of being castigated by people on this site who are apparently living in denial, at least the denial of the possibility of pure evil. I'm with you. Nothing from these tyrants shocks me anymore.

            To me, just the nonexistence of an investigation by the SEC into the dumping of put options in the days before 9/11 speaks volumes of evil to me. It's a disgrace.

            The talk of invading Iraq just days (hours?) after 9/11 reeks of pure evil. Who could speak such words after such a stunning attack on America? Pure evil...Rumsfeld.

            Why were all the bin Ladens shuttled out of the country?

            Why were Saudis all of a sudden able to get visas so easily?

            Why do they act like they didn't know who bin Laden is? They've known for decades. In fact - they are family friends!!

            Why do they act like they never shook hands with Saddam and never gave him the weapons that they then claimed he had again?

            My favorite joke: How did Cheney know that Saddam had WMDs? Cause he has the receipt!

            But seriously...I'm not one to put all these complicated dots together, but my faith and my gut tells me that these folks are so, so, so guilty. They are so easy with a lie that it has to be more than incompetence. Incompetent people can still be good people at heart. These people are evil, lying bastards. Call me names, I don't care. I only hope that I hear the official truth in my lifetime. I'm only 27.

            You are a catastrophe that walks like a man. -- Bill Maher on Shrubya.

            by missreporter on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 12:12:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm right there with you (none)
              And wasn't it Rummy who stopped flying commercial airlines early in the summer of '01?

              There's just too much evidence that points right at these guys.

              I have so much hope pinned on Fitzgerald next month. I do believe that the truth will finally come out, but like you, I really want it to be in my lifetime (I'm 40).

    •  Here is the guy you mention (none)
      Excellent comment BTW
      I linked to Cannonfire "upstairs". Here is the episode you mention, from the same link above:

      THE BRAD BLOG: "Atta's Big Gamble. Plus: Jack Abramoff's Link To A Mysterious Saudi -- And Perhaps To Al Qaeda"

      Guest blogged by Joseph Cannon

      You have probably never heard of Makram Chams. It's time you met him.

      Actually, you can't physically meet him -- he disappeared on September 11, 2001. I bring him to your attention for two reasons:

      1. He knew, and apparently aided, Mohammed Atta and the other 9/11 terrorists.

      2. He owned a casino ship in Florida.

      Yes, a casino ship -- just like the SunCruz ships owned by Jack Abramoff, the recently-indicted Republican money-man and wheeler-dealer. According to Associated Press, the terrorists took a mysterious trip on a SunCruz ship on September 5, 2001. And that trip is of great interest for three reasons:

      1. SunCruz ships were under investigation for involvement in money laundering and other unsavory activities.
      2. Al Qaeda operatives made a number of mysterious casino jaunts in that era; few believe that they were hard-core gamblers.
      3. Al Qaeda was funded by drug money. Drug money must needs be laundered. Casinos have been known to be used for that purpose. Casino ships are unregulated.

      So with that background in mind, let's learn more about the mysterious Makram Chams (whose first name is sometimes transliterated as Meekram).

      My information was kindly provided by the estimable Daniel Hopsicker, of Mad Cow Morning News. I'm trying to double check the Makram Chams story (which is mentioned on one of his documentary videos, but is not on his website) to the limited extent that I can.

      Hopsicker learned from eyewitnesses -- including a cab driver who drove Atta on a number of occasions, and who told this story to the FBI -- that Atta frequently visited Makram Chams, a Lebanese who lived above a convenience store that he owned.

      At one point, Chams asked the cab driver to take him to the Orlando Executive Airport. There, Chams picked up an Armani-suited Saudi businessman and his wife, who wore traditional Arab attire. The driver then took this party back to Chams' apartment. (After 9/11, the FBI reviewed surveillance tapes of this pick-up, which is how they learned of the driver.)

      Weeks later, the same driver was asked to take the Saudi's wife back the airport. But now they were carrying extra luggage -- extremely heavy luggage. It was a chest so heavy that two men had to transport it. An intelligence source contacted by Hopsicker felt certain that this chest contained gold.

      Chams was no mere convenience store operator. He co-owned (along with one other investor) a casino ship called Vegas-in-Venice. This ship attracted a fair amount of attention because it had been left illegally in the harbor for over a year. We have no word as to what happened to this ship, or how Chams paid for it. Was he a front man? Was the ship purchased by SunCruz?

      After 9/11, Makram Chams disappeared, and his store remains shuttered.

      Just like Welfare, Modern Medicine must end: 60 years of it and we still have illness in US

      by lawnorder on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 07:40:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Follow/click links between SunCruz (none)
        and 911 guys.

        Here's more info, see especially the second one (cached AP).  Note, though everyone mentions Atta specifically, the original source AP story mentions only "some of the men suspected in the terrorist attacks", "two or three men linked to the Sept. 11 hijackings" and "manager recognized one of the suspected terrorists."  -  Video of that man given to FBI.   Note that Atta's name is not mentioned.  Still, it's amazing enough.

        Some info here  and especially  -->> here   (full text of original followup story by AP, Sep. 27, 2001).

        AP Sep. 27 - On the Port Canaveral ship, the casino manager recognized one of the suspected terrorists as someone who may have frequented the vessel. Video of that man is being turned over to the FBI either later Wednesday or early Thursday.


         ALSO --  o/t --   will someone goddamn look at my diary about the vote TRAP senators are walking into this week ! !

    •  Digging into Abramoff's history is very important (none)
      Please share more.
  •  Conspiracy theories do damage (none)
    I was skimming this diary and I was thinking, "  Hmmm...not again," but then I noticed the FSM pirates/global warming graph and I understood the purpose.  
    •  well can you (none)
      explain it to me

      I wish I had a penis on the back of my head.

      by anna in philly on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 07:22:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Correlation is not Causation (none)
        As someone with scientific training, I have to admit that correlation is not causation.

        Or just because pirates declined at the same time Global Warming increased - a valid, verifiable, correlation - doesn't mean they are the cause of Global Warming

        Which means that my "theory" that the demise of Able Danger was caused by Atta's ties to Abramoff, deduced from several ways that they are related, or by correlation may be full of holes...

        Just like Welfare, Modern Medicine must end: 60 years of it and we still have illness in US

        by lawnorder on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 07:58:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  ahhhhhhhhhhhhh (none)
          thanks:)

          I wish I had a penis on the back of my head.

          by anna in philly on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 08:09:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  i think i asked you this once before (none)
            Why is it you wished you had a penis on the back of your head? Forgive my innocence, please.

            "You know everybody was wondering, but he had the balls to ask." – Jon Stewart, after... you had to be there

            by subtropolis on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 01:26:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Love of Money is the Root of all Evil (none)
          It is possible that most or all your links are more or less correct but that most of the people who thought they were users were, in fact, being used by others.  They had a certain commonality of motive that allowed them to "cooperate" without realizing that was what was happening.  

          The only ones who could have planned 9/11 IMHO were bin Laden and al Qaeda, in cooperation with Pakistani intelligence.  Their financiers may have been trying to influence the Bush family and the GOP, but may themselves not have known how far Osama would take things.  Similarly, Abramoff and Norquist and Gillespie may have seen the Saudis as a source of ready cash, but not realized how deep their hatred of the US was and what they were capable of.  After all, they just met those suave business guys, except possibly Atta, who probably also looked perfectly npormal to soemone who was as greedy and single-minded as they.  

          Similarly, most if not all of the money launderers may have only understood they were part of a plot to get and hold power in the US and influence US policy to be able to make more money. Had no idea it would lead to 9/11.

          Bush isn't smart enough or reliable enough to have known most of this.  Only Cheney and maybe Rumsfeld would be capable of knowing about 9/11 and letting it happen, but even there I have to believe they would not have known how bad the attack would be.  Apparently bin Laden himslef didn't believe the towers would fall.

          However, anyone who knew any part of this and realized enough of the rest would be VERY scared about things coming out and certainly would try hard to suppress any investigation, particularly into the Saudis (redacted pages are just the surface here) and Abramoff and the GOP connection.  And any Senator or House member who was a part of the operation has to be very scared too.  That they just kept the thing going for the last 4 years really says something about the kind of sociopaths we are dealing with.

          It is unthinkable that something like this could remain hidden forever.  Even with Iran-Contra we found out a lot, though not nearly enough about Daddy Bush.  Things are unraveling.  There may not be enough reliable fingers to plug this dam.  As to parts of this that are true, we will begin to see parts of the edifice crumbling, as we have seen with FEMA and Safavian and the rest.  And maybe bodies and/or people disappearing.  That will be the time to get really worried.

          "False language, evil in itself, infects the soul with evil." ----Socrates

          by Mimikatz on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 08:38:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Brilliant! (none)
            That is what I believe as well.

            The Saudi money flowing into GOP 'pipeline" guys blocked the revealing of Atta's name to the FBI and dissolved the AD (Able Danger) task force early on the Bush reign, but they had no idea that that would result in 9/11.

            And after 9/11 they went "Oh shit!" and demanded that all evidence of AD was erased (isn't it strange tha something that Rummy now says is a matter of National Security was ordered to be ERASED ? Since when do we erase sensitive security information ?)

            But the people who knew a little about AD and Atta and nothing about the Saudi money pipeline could not sit quiet and blabbed to the 9/11 comission and to Chuk Weldom...

            And the rest is history.

            Just like Welfare, Modern Medicine must end: 60 years of it and we still have illness in US

            by lawnorder on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 09:03:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  causation and conclusions drawn (none)
        I see Lawnorder said it above, but the first thing I would tell my students in freshman statistics was "Association is not causation".  The importance of keeping this in mind at all times is crucial in statistical matters and data mining.

        For example, African Americans perform much more poorly on the Armed Services Aptitude Test.  This test is widely regarded to be one of the most race and gender neutral tests out there by researchers.  So is the poor performance of Blacks on this test caused by blackness?  No.  Factors such as level of education, quality of education, employment and others must be accounted for.  Once these are included in a regression model, the racial difference disappears.

        "I have no clue" - Bill O'Reilly quoted completely out of context. Hey fair's fair right?

        by chicagochamp on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 08:22:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I think Lawnorder did a good job (none)
        I mean, it belongs the Lawnorder.  

        But, could you explain why you'd like a penis on the back of your head?

  •  Well the link that should (4.00)
    be made between Abramoff and all terrorist groups - the one thing the should have in common is Federal Prosecutors and other law enforcement using their full compliment of Patriot Act powers to investigate him and everyone he has ever done business with.

    His embezzlement schemes - presumably on behalf of the GOP machine - should be widely investigated and should not stop when the get too close to a person in power.

    That is what should happen and yet they continue to urge us to pay not attention to the man behind the curtain...

    •  wouldn't it be lovely (none)
      if their beloved Patriot Act backfired on them in just that manner? Then I'd say it was worth it. After they are all in jail, we repeal it.

      You are a catastrophe that walks like a man. -- Bill Maher on Shrubya.

      by missreporter on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 08:27:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes (none)
        I have an angle on the Jose Padilla case that I'll have to hang on to until we get some Dems back in the White House.  But let's just say having the Bush, Cheney and other "special" families spend the rest of their lives at a lovely beach front propterty in Cuba might just be the best way to prevent this kind of coup from ever taking place again.
        •  I'll volunteer for guard duty at Club MedFedMax (none)
          But, first, we set up an open-air stockade -- like the Colonials -- on the site of the Twin Towers and at the Pentagon, and let members of the community do what our ancestors were free to do with their criminals for as long as it takes for everyone who wants to have a word with them to file past.  One visit per customer.

          For the duration, may I suggest a sentence of one day for every dead American: 3,000 (9/11) plus 1900 (Iraq War) plus ???? thousand (Katrina).

  •  Even a paranoid is correct some of the time (none)
    And a sure sign of a consprircy is the lack of evidence.

    That said, cooincidence sure is building isn't it?

  •  Right after 9-11 I was in class (none)
    It was a communications class and I brought up the LIHOP theory. Now understand, the class was full of people who did not pay attention to politics the way I do. Half the class said "of course they let it happen on purpose". I have no idea what to make of that except that half of us feel helpless and the other half don't care, they think we are going to get cheep oil.

    Liberal, Christian, Feminazi, Mom.

    by TeresaInPa on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 06:12:34 AM PDT

  •  TINFOIL HAT! TINFOIL HAT! (none)
    TINFOIL HAT!  TINF --

    Oh wait.  You made some intriguing points.  

    Good diary.

    <holds back kneejerking knee>

  •  GSSBWWMISH(BPDENE) (4.00)
    Somewhere between LIHOP and pure incompetence is where I tend to come down on this:

    Greedy, short-sighted bastards who wouldn't mind if something happened (but probably didn't expect nine eleven).  

    I have no doubt that the neo-cons would take money from just about anyone (Jack Abramoff's specialty, isn't it?) and were willing to turn a blind eye to some of the activity going on (i.e., Atta).  They were getting their cash and a little fear on the part of the American people couldn't hurt the Neo-Con cause.  But I'm not sure they expected 9/11 (though, as the PDB demonstrates, the warning signs were there).  

    One benefit of this theory is that it helps to explain how Barbara Olson was not warned.  One drawback of this theory is that the acronmym isn't so catchy.  

    A fanatic is one who redoubles his effort when he has forgotten his aim.

    by sharkbite on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 06:27:17 AM PDT

    •  they expected 9/11 (none)
      they wanted a new Pearl Harbor...said as much in a PNAC document.

      You are a catastrophe that walks like a man. -- Bill Maher on Shrubya.

      by missreporter on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 08:28:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The actual quote (none)
        Further, the process of transformation,
        even if it brings revolutionary change, is
        likely to be a long one, absent some
        catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a
        new Pearl Harbor.

        Link (actual quote is from p.63)

        While I don't doubt that the PNAC crew would have liked to move the process along as quickly as possible, I don't see them (in this document) calling for a new Pearl Harbor.  And even if they wanted one, it's a leap to say they expected the one they got.

        A fanatic is one who redoubles his effort when he has forgotten his aim.

        by sharkbite on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 08:53:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Uncanny description (4.00)
    This bit:

    Why I don't believe LIHOP
     Not that it doesn't make sense. It is just to horrific and painful to contemplate the possibility that we have in the White House people capable of letting a man made volcanic eruption shower New Yorkers with the ashes of 2,900 of their comrades. I just can't do it. To do so would fill me with so much worry and despair that I decided, consciously, to look the other way. I tell you this particular tidbit because I believe this is the reason so many Americans refuse to see any wrongs on Bush: It is just too painful and worrisome to face the possibility.

    Uncanny description of cognitive dissonance sidling up to full cognition.

    Pick a good day, when you're feeling strong, sun's shining, paycheck in your pocket; have a couple of drinks out on the veranda, settle into that comfortably numb zone.

    Then read this: 9/11 Timeline by Cooperative Research

    And ask yourself: Why did every single department or entity leading up to, through and during, immediately following the attacks of 9/11 fail?

    Doesn't it seem like an enormous crapshoot that every single opportunity and response -- out of the thousands of datapoints recorded -- was a gross failure?

    Begins to look like a system.  Kind of like the systematic "duping" Abramoff pulls off...

    •  A similar case can be made about Pearl Harbor. (none)
      A Pearl Harbor timeline would also show many agencies failing to react to evidence.

      Myself, I am inclined towards conspiracy theories in both cases (and, if a conspiracy theory is true for the one, that makes it much more likely to be true for the other as well.)  Of course, it's also possible to argue that, because a conspiracy theory for Pearl Harbor is absurd, therefore it's not plausible for 9/11 either.

      •  Complacency? (none)
        I tend to think that Pearl Harbor was due to complacency.  Hawaii was valued as a staging resource, but never seen as American soil.  Technically speaking, it wasn't at that time; it was only a happy-go-lucky playland for the rich and a remote source for sugar in December 1941.  It was also populated by a lot of non-whites, yes?

        But Madeleine Albright's instructions on hand-off were that al Qaeda and terrorism would be the biggest concerns for the Bush Administrtion.  Richard Clarke is hair-on-fire about it.  FAA issued not one, not two, but FOUR warnings in the summer of 2001 regarding hijacking threats.

        Read all the rest of the massive collection of material at 9/11 Timeline.

        This wasn't complacency.  It's like the difference between DHS/FEMA handling of Hurricanes Charley and Frances in 2004 versus Katrina in 2005.

        Something smells horribly rotten and it's not the garbage in New Orleans.

  •  I, too, am skeptical of LIHOP (4.00)
    But you raise some really good points here.

    Some other things you might want to consider: Bob Baer's Sleeping with the Devil, documenting the US unwillingness to crack down on Saudis.

    Also, how does Bandar's recall and replacement by someone with known Al Qaeda ties fit into the Abramoff scandals? I'd bet there's a real connection; I'm just not sure what it is yet.

    I'm also just beginning Charlie Wilson's War. And it seems the bit that has always been missed in Iran-Contra investigations (beyond the possibility that ReaganCoW/Bush dealt with Iranians before the 1980 election, and that therefore the hostage trading tied to Iran-Contra was already established) is a tie at least between the people who funded the muj and those who funded the Contras. Keep in mind that, for a lot of these people (including probably Abramoff), helping the mujahadeen was part and parcel with helping the Israelis (freedom fighters, empathetic to the American way of life) and the Contras (freedom fighters). I imagine for these guys, they were never able to make the cognitive switch to considering the muj their sworn enemies. Many on the right still consider Ollie North a hero; I suspect they still consider the muj heros in the same way.

    Couple that with the fact that this Administration is basically Iran-Contra II, and you've got some serious problems. I mean, think about this. Let's pretend that Michael Ledeen, former Iran-Contra broker, and his buddy Ahmad Chalabi forged the Niger documents. If so, they likely did it to prompt the kind of ill-planned war that, like our funding of the muj doesn't adequately account for consequences.

    While I don't think Bush LIHOP 9/11, I think it very possible that some very bad judges of character (like perhaps NOrquist) were able to capitalize on Bush's weakness to further goals they THOUGHT were wise. Do you think the Iran-Contra thugs regretted their involvement with the Iranians? Some of them, maybe. Not Ollie, though. Does Norquist regret his involvement with some shady Saudis? I don't know.

    This is the way democracy ends Not with a bomb But with a gavel -Max Baucus

    by emptywheel on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 06:36:41 AM PDT

    •  Lots of arrogance here (none)
      Enough that many people who thought they were users were in fact being used but didn't know it.  I set out my theory above.  Similar to yours.  The love of maney is the root of all evil.

      "False language, evil in itself, infects the soul with evil." ----Socrates

      by Mimikatz on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 08:42:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Following from your comment above Mimi (none)
        It seems likely that the GOP climbed into bed with the devil for the money. They may have had their own cognitive dissonance, unwilling to believe that their Saudi sponsors could possibly be planning an attack of the magnitude of 9-11. They may have been prepared to accept the casualties of a lesser attack as an acceptable cost of doing business. 9-11, as we know it, may never have occured to them. They were probably willing to ignore what they believed to be a lesser plot, to call the Able Danger dogs off the trail in order to prevent exposure of their gravy train. It is probably all motivated by the lust for Saudi petro-dollars.

        Now that the connections are unravelling and being revealed, it will be interesting to see how far they go with the 'P*triot Act', and 'enemy combatant' designations of those who pose a threat to their cat-bird seat. The discipline among the ranks has been quite total so far. Will anyone blink, or turn?

        Perhaps it is the guilty knowledge of the high stakes game they have been playing, in the wake of their passive complicity in 9-11 that tempers their loyalty and omerta.

      •  Power, not money (none)
        Thing is, Cheney's getting rich off of this. But Bush isn't--not that much, anyway.

        I think they did it instead because they were working under a very narrow paradigm for how we could retain power in the world, based on a set of allegiances in the ME. And they were so intent on retaining power, that they didn't look too closely at the implications of the alliances they were forming.

        This is the way democracy ends Not with a bomb But with a gavel -Max Baucus

        by emptywheel on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 10:25:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Another point (none)
      Maybe we can't expect that these folks will rot in jail, but we certainly can make them sufficiently radioactive that elected officials are nervous about taking their money and the majority of corporations are afraid to give them more money.  Dry up that particular well at least through the 2006 and 2008 elections.

      "False language, evil in itself, infects the soul with evil." ----Socrates

      by Mimikatz on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 08:52:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  LIHOP (none)
      This is where I first saw the LIHOP laid out -- still the best, IMHO Lucy Apologies if this has been discussed to death. Abramoff might have been being used to smooth the whole process under the guise of everyday corruption.
  •  Atta was linked through the Kuala Lumpur meeting (4.00)
    in January 2000, that was attended by the flight 77 (Pentagon) hijackers -- Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Midhar -- and Atta's roommate, Ramzi bin al Shehhi.  The 9/11 and Cole attacks were planned there, afterwards the Flt. 77 hijackers entered the US and Atta's roommate went back to Hamburg.

    Oh, by the way, the NSA tracked al-Hazmi and al-Midhar to the Kuala Lumpur planning summit (US and British intelligence had known about the al-Hazmi family's operation of an al Qaeda communications center in Yemen since 1995).  Once they got there, the CIA and half a dozen American and allied intel agencies monitored the meeting, and followed everyone as they left.

    All the information above came out during the September 2002 Congressional Joint Intelligence hearings into 9/11.  That's no secret.  For more info, see, http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0302/S00079.htm

    Now, can you how did Able Danger linked Atta with the others?  If you want the details, see,  http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/8/11/131635/786and http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/8/10/145513/501and
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/8/12/164139/748and
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/8/15/123554/807and
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/8/29/103524/358and
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/21/11831/3427

    Finally, as for Atta's role in the UBL-Golden Chain-GOP financial network, he was strictly a manager within a loss center.  

    However, you're quite right about some of this. The reason that Bush didn't roll up the al-Qaeda cells during the summer of 2001, as the Agency was urging and Tenet was begging, was to protect the Republican recipients of all that illegal Saudi payola and their Gulf patrons, and their New York bankers.

    •  They lost track of them after Kuala Lumpur (none)
      A small point, but still relevant...

      I'm reading "A Pretext to War" by James Bamford and it chronicles 9/11 and the faulty intelligence through the NSA's perspective.  In it, he notes that following this meeting these individuals basically disappeared until about three months later when their names were requestsed to be searched in a database for a different agency(I can't recall at the moment, I'm at work.)   This request was never followed through on, and by the time a followup was performed, they had been in the US for over a year.   I'd highly recommend reading this book, or at least the final third of it, as it deals with the mistakes made, the fixing of intelligence by the special groups set up in the white house to bypass normal routes of intel and the various department officials who layed out the original plan for US disengagement in the Israel/Palestinian conflict in the mid 90's -- only at that time it was created for Israel and Netanyahu.    

      Thanks for your links, I just wanted to clarify your point.  

      "It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man". --Jack Handey

      by Robola on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 07:34:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Read the FBI IG report. It says that the CIA (none)
        ordered the FBI liason at the CIA Counter-Terrorism Center (CTC)(that was Cofer Black) to withhold a cable alerting the Bureau's NY national security HQ about the entry of al-Hazmi and al-Midhar at LAX on 1/15/00.  

        The pair immediately met their contact (an official of the Saudi civil aviation bureau who the Joint Committee staff identified as a likely intelligence officer) in a restaurant near the airport.  After that meeting, the contact had a long closed-door meeting inside the Saudi Consulate in LA, before driving them to San Diego where he paid their rent at an apartment across the street from where a second Saudi intel officer, and FBI informant, watched over them for several months.

        No, neither US nor Saudi intelligence lost track of the Flt. 77 hijackers in the months following their entry into the US.  Please read Part 4 of the Crimes of 9/11 for details.  http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0310/S00257.htm

        •  Correction to above (none)
          Cofer Black was the Director of the CTC.  Along with Tenet, he comes in for the harshest critique in the CIA IG report, which has been given to a few selected Congressmen.

          Cofer, who was CIA Chief of Station in Sudan when UBL had his base there in the mid-1990s, let al-Hazmi and al-Midhar into the US on 1/15/00, and then ordered that the FBI's national security office (then commanded ny John O'Neil) be kept in the dark about the fact.

          Want a leap of faith?  Cofer Black was UBL's control officer, and they had some sort of falling out.  Or, did they?

          •  Addendum (none)
            By the way, I've read most of Bamford's writings.  His work is fairly conventional, but extremely valuable in its details.
          •  Cofer Black: Bin Laden's Head. (none)
            Remember Gary Schroen, the head of the CIA people who went into Afghanistan in September 2001, claims Cofer Black told him to bring back bin Laden's head packed in a box in dry ice, so that he could show it to Bush.  I suspect this order came from Bush, and was only relayed by Black, and that it is connected to the "Memorandum of Notification" from Bush to the CIA of Sept. 17, 2001 that set out the rules for treatment of captives, initially for the CIA in Afghanistan, and that seems to have been the source of the torture policies.
  •  Doh! (none)
    Thanks, I should've figured that out! :-)
  •  Talk about leaps of faith! (none)
    This is a reasoned-out and sourced diary, and thank you for putting in the necessary disclaimers/warnings but, for me, you lose me with your two biggest acknowldged "leaps of faith":

    • Abramoff knew of Mohamed Atta because he brought Saudi money into US

    • Abramoff or his friends at GOP told top brass to stop Able Danger before 9/11

    As to the first one, it seems to me there is only supposition, not evidence - the link is tenuous.  As to the second, this doesn't "work".  First, Abramoff himself would not even know about Able Danger - it was highly compartmentalized.  I doubt, too, that any of his GOoPer friends knew about it and, if they did, it was little to nothing.  And, even if Abramoff did learn about (a) the existence of Able Danger and (b)  what they had found, he could not call up the Pentagon and get it shut down.  They would say "who the hell are you?"  Abramoff was a player, but he did not have that kind of power.

    Next, even if (a) someone within the GOP knew about Able Danger, (b) knew what they had concluded, and (c) was in a position powerful enough that the Pentagon would listen to what they have to say, you are talking about a very limited number of people.  Probably Cheney, Bush, and the top of the top are the only people on the civilian side who could shut down a secret, compartmentalized program from outside the Pentagon.  Otherwise, you have to conclude that AD was shut down from the inside.

    Then, think of this: who in the inside would really give enough of a rats ass about a lobbyist named Abramoff to leak the fact that AD had identified Atta and his connection to Abramoff/money laundering to Republicans outside of the Pentagon?  Who is to even say that the people involved in AD that were even aware of Abramoff was (assuming they even identified him using data mining)?  And, even if they knew who Abramoff was, would they be willing to shut down AD just to protect him?  Not everyone in the Pentagon is a political hack - if they had found evidence of a U.S. lobbyist working with terrorists, they may have been just as likely to report this information to the FBI.  The stated reason why the AD data regarding Atta was not reported, the whole green card excuse, would not even apply to Abramoff.

    It's an interesting theory, but, just thinking off the top of my head, I can come up with too many questions to give it much validity unless there is  evidence.

    But, hey, I'd rather read about this than LIHOP!!!  :)

    •  Abramoff is just the "help" (none)
      The Bush family has old deep ties to Saudi money. As does Cheney and Bush's Oil buddies. Read "House of Saad, House of Bush" for more details.

      As for your objections such as
      even if they knew who Abramoff was, would they be willing to shut down AD just to protect him?
      No but they would to protect some powerful families

      Not everyone in the Pentagon is a political hack - if they had found evidence of a U.S. lobbyist working with terrorists, they may have been just as likely to report this information to the FBI.
      Precisely! That is the reason, IMHO that a few dedicated people got Able Danger as high as it got (SOCOM Command?) and the reason we know about it today. Some people remeber and want to get action on this outrage.

      IMHO the bumbling Curt Weldom thought he could pin this on Clinton's "bad" interpretation of Posse Commitatus and got everyone to look at AD, including Arlen Specter. But pretty soon a lot of conservatives started running away from the AD story, even before Katrina killed the "bad" Posse Commitatus interpretation smear.

      And now, since they can't smear Clinton for PC worries after letting 1,000 die due to the same worries, there is no gain in promoting this story, hence Rumsfeld's shut down on AD talk at the Pentagon...

      Just like Welfare, Modern Medicine must end: 60 years of it and we still have illness in US

      by lawnorder on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 08:37:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Bush/Saudis/Bin Laden Group (none)
        All of these connections could have caused the Bush family (especially H.W.) to be swept up in a data mining operation.

        So, here's an alternative theory:  Dubya got into office, found out about AD, saw that his daddy was on the initial list of terrorist suspects, and shut the whole thing down because he was pissed off, and because he didn't want the public seeing that.

        This would also explain why the terabytes of data were destroyed.

  •  If Abramoff is involved...................... (none)
    why does it APPEAR that Bushco is letting him twist in the wind.  Someone has something on Abramoff that will keep him/prevent him from squealing.  Could his family be threatened?  I wish someone would pursue this angle.  Is what we appear to see, window dressing? A big roose?
  •  I'm a weak LIHOP believer (4.00)
     - Means, motive, opportunity
     - Who benefitted from 9/11?  
     - 9/11 outcome fits PERFECTLY with the PNAC agenda per published manifesto(s).  
     - All the warning signals either ignored or deliberately buried
     - Active opposition to creation of 9/11 commission (afraid of any truths getting out?)
     - Now in hindsight, much irrefutable damning evidence of corruption, mendacity and depravity at the very heart of this administration.

    Add it all up and I sure believe in LIHOP, albeit on a circumstantial basis. Because we dont have irrefutable PROOF of a LIHOP conspiracy / inside job, I can yield on matters of degree.  More specifically, I think they perhaps knew something was going down but with exact details uncertain. It is possible for LIHOP, without them actively conspiring to directly cause the deaths of thousands.  

    But, given the outrages regarding TORTURE and a fucking WAR of choise founded on deceit, I wouldn't put ANYTHING past these evil bastards.  

    Just my $0.02...

    •  Agreed, you can't 'look the other way' anymore... (none)
      ...not after Iran-Contra demonstrated that the GOP and their lackeys in the Pentagon and the CIA are willing to secretly sell arms to a hostile regime to fund a clandestine war that Congress had decided to end by cutting off funding, and then they tried to cover it up by lying to Congress about it.

      Now we're supposed to believe 9/11 was just a lucky coincidence for them that allowed them to advance their agenda. But these guys have shown they make their own luck.

      If the Republicans stay in power much longer, An Army of One isn't going to be just a slogan.

      Edwards/Clark 2008

      by MeanBoneII on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 07:43:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly (none)
        right on point
        •  Coincidence Theory: (none)
          5 NORAD Drills on the day of 9-11 at the same time.

          Atta's passport found unsinged at the WTC.

          John O'Neil not told about hijacker surveillance or Able Danger.

          General Lambert at SOCOM stopping Able Danger from informing the FBI about Atta because Atta is mistakenly seen as a "US Person".

          Moussouia's computer is not looked because of FISA hangups

          FBI told to back off Bin Ladens by White House

          Richard Clarke demoted in Feb. 2001

          Predator Drone, which pinpointed Bin Laden, not allowed to fly after Feb. 2001

          Cheney put in charge of Counter-terror Report and NORAD response structure in May 2001

          Clinton and Clarke never told of Atta by neo-con generals appointed by Cheney

          There are about a hundred more "co-incidences" just as unlikely.

          Boy, that guy Atta really was one lucky Terrorist.

          I mean, what are the odds of so many coincidences, most of which by themselves would have prevented 9-11, never mind if the dots had been connected.

          I propose that Cheney, former Defense Secretary in charge of lots of right-wing generals who would follow his orders even under Clinton, was really running a secret government in the Pentagon and at the FBI and knew during the 2000 election all about Atta and the Gang.

          Look at Iran Contra's secret government!  These bastards know how to run one, only this time it was even more secret!

          No wonder Cheney looked at all the other Republican candidates for Vice President and then--surprise--PICKED HIMSELF!

    •  I'm a variant of LIHOP truthseeker... (none)
      That THEY (whoever specifically that might actually be  - and not including Dubya himself...) - MIGHt ahve gone as far as allowing "it" to unfold, in the expectation that the worst would have been a single airplane impact on WTC.

      Not 4 planes.... as happened.

      I concur with the means motive bullet poits.

      I then think The owner of WTC got wind of the scheme and prepped the buildings to collapse so as to collect the insurance - attempting to get double the amount! - knowing that he was bullet proof come any investigation... how would I have known! huh?

      THEY might have calculated that a couple of hundred blood sacrificed on the altar was worth the price.. along the PNAC lines.

      Bush's expression when told seems to support this - along the lines of  - OMG... they really did it. I thought it was just macho talk...

      Something like that.

      And shame on me for being a nasty anti-semite for even thinking that the intelligence agency with the closest ties to the Arab world might have been involved in facilitating the operation. NOTHING could be further from my mind....

      When dealing with the insane, the best method is to pretend to be sane. - Herman Hesse

      by jpwillis on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 02:04:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm impressed (none)
    This is the first conspiracy theory I've seen that actually makes sense.  That doesn't mean it's true, but if we can find evidence to back it up, this would really be damning.
  •  Saudi Money? (none)
    Abramoff is a right-wing orthodox Jew who paid for paramilitary equipment and sniper workshops for the Israeli Defense Force, and started and maintained  a private Orthodox jewish boys school in Maryland. He had enough umphf and influence in the American Jewish  community that he could e-mail  a prominent rabbi and get him to fabricate a bogus backdated award: "perhaps something like Scholar of Talmudic Studies?" for the purpose of padding his resume for nomination to the Cosmos Club: Mr. Latham (ph), is, "Yes. I just need to know what needs to be produced. Letters? Plaques? Neither?" were the  words the rabbi was reported to have written in response to Abramoff's email request, from Senate testimony before McCain's investigative committee earlier this year.

    Abramoff may be a fixer/bagman, but I doubt it is for any real Saudis concerned with advancement of Islamic people, or for any honest Islamic interests. It is antithetical to Abramoff's background and past associations and passionate causes.

    If anything, he may have been involved with Atta in some kind of false-flag or set-up.  Abramoff has been most likely acting in the capacity of a US rightwing/neocon or Israeli covert agent, not a Saudi agent. He was working for the Apartheid era South African Secret Service  during the time when Israel and the repressive Aparteid S Africa pariah government had a close security and trade relationship, and the two countries were doing joint nuclear weapons development & testing See Vela incident.

    •  Read David Horowitz on Abramoff / Norquist (none)
      http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/readarticle.asp?ID=11209&p=1

      And Michelle Malkin has more
      http://michellemalkin.com/archives/000318.htm

      The Jewish hard liners do not agree on this one.

      Methinks Abramoff's last straw in Horowitz' eyes was to lobby for Saleh Kamel and to get someone from indicted terrorist Alamoudi's AMC council in Homeland Security and in Gitmo
      lawnorder: Islamist Jihad penetration of Homeland Security?

      Just like Welfare, Modern Medicine must end: 60 years of it and we still have illness in US

      by lawnorder on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 08:46:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I pointed this out upthread (4.00)
      But one of the missed connections of Iran-Contra is that the people who were thrilled to be funding the Contras because they were freedom fighters fighting Communism were also the people who were thrilled to be funding the mujahadeen because they were freedom fighters fighting communism. The only difference was that they could fund the muj somewhat legally, whereas with the Contras they had to launder money.

      These people never adequately rethought their understanding of the Contras nor, I would imagine, have they really left their understanding of the muj completely behind.

      And, by association the people funding the Contras and the muj have had, at the least, close ties to the Israelis.

      When you forget all the history, the thought that an orthodox Jew would fund things Islamic. But when you remember the history, it's not a stretch in the least.

      This is the way democracy ends Not with a bomb But with a gavel -Max Baucus

      by emptywheel on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 09:21:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Let's not forget the key part of Iran Contra (none)
        involved Israel, acting as a proxy/conduit, selling Iran arms and spare parts in the mid 1980's to re-supply and maintain Iran's largely US sourced planes, guns and military equipment in working order while the Iranians were fighting against the US supported Saddam's Iraq.

        It is very doubtful that Israel would have participated in this transaction with Iran if they did not perceive a net benefit to Israel's own regional interests, such as keeping two strong neighbors fighting each other,  and weakening each other in the process.

        •  Precisely my point (none)
          All this that seems impossible now was eminently possible in the 1980s.

          And one part of Israeli support for Iran, back in the days, was a notion of periphery support. If they could keep the non-Arab states on the periphery of the ME strong, than it would keep the Arab states right next to Israel from attacking Israel.

          This is the way democracy ends Not with a bomb But with a gavel -Max Baucus

          by emptywheel on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 11:10:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  You're trying to replace a good theory (none)
    with a bad one. Speculate. It's good to think out of the box. And as Sherlock mentioned, the two are not mutually exclusive. But LIHOP is on far solider ground than your thoery with it's enormous leap of faith.

    Darkness washed over the Dude...darker than a black steer's tookus on a moonlight prairie night...there was no bottom

    by moon in the house of moe on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 07:26:12 AM PDT

  •  LIHOP doesn't mean they knew how big it would be. (4.00)
    I'm sure what Condi meant in her testimony was that nobody thought a bunch of towel heads could actually hit a building with a plane, not that they wouldn't try. I think the scope and success of Atta's plan caught them by surprise. I do think that many of our "decision makers" made the decision to downgrade and frustrate anti-terrorism efforts knowing that somewhere, sometime, an event they could use to manipulate support for their real agenda would happen.
    •  No one knew that the towers would fall (none)
      Which dramatically increased the ammount of casualties.

      That was due to a structural defect more than anything. The people who build the tower said it was built to withstand the impact of a jet plane - but no one thought to calculate the effect of a jet fuel fire on the metal structure: It made it weak enough to buckle which then caused the towers to fall on their own weight...

      Kinda like getting a cardboard box wet. When dry it may withstand another full box on top of it, but when wet it buckles at the same situation.

      Still, LIHOP an attack that could kill hundreds... Nah, just too evil, even for Bushies.

      Just like Welfare, Modern Medicine must end: 60 years of it and we still have illness in US

      by lawnorder on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 08:19:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What I meant was there are many flavors of LIHOP (none)
        I favor the look the other way version. Hear no evil, see no evil. Downgrade and frustrate anti-terrorism efforts. Hence,  somewhere, sometime something bad will happen. But they have deniability with regard to the specific event.
  •  I think the BushCo mindset (4.00)
    prior to 9/11 was very similar to their mindset prior to Katrina.  There were critical choke points high in the administration leading to avoidable disasters in both instances.  

    Wiping out Clinton's legitimacy was foremost for 9/11; wiping out FEMA's legitimacy was foremost for Katrina.

    The choke points are there, some already discovered, others awaiting discovery.

    I think it's as simple as that.  No need for LIHOP.

    The rhetoric of the right wing is being fixed around the policy of disinformation.

    by MoronMike on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 07:37:11 AM PDT

  •  Hamburg Al-Qaeda Cell - Watchlist (4.00)
     
    Atta was on a watchlist of German Intelligence since 1998, Darkanzali as well.

    Update (11/03/2004): Darkanzali refuses to testify at German 9/11 trial

    This article also doesn't reveal, that Darkanzali visited with the alleged Sep11th hijackers Mohamed Atta, Marwan Al-Shehhi and Ziad Jarrah, the same Hamburg mosque. According to Chicago Tribune and german DER STERN, in 1999 CIA officer Thomas Volz was seeking to turn Darkazanli into a spy. Atta was on a watchlist of German Intelligence since 1998, Darkanzali as well. However, both FBI and CIA ignored Darkanzali after Sep11th.

    Witness to testify at Germany's retrial of 9/11 suspect

    XinhuaNet -November 1, 2004

    BERLIN, Nov. 1 (Xinhuanet) -- A newly arrested German businessman with suspected al-Qaeda links, will testify this week at the retrial of accused Sept. 11 conspirator Mounir El Motassadeq.

    Source INN Report

    9/11 Hijackers Seen In Wedding Video


    Marwan al-Sheehi, far right, is believed to have been the hijacker who flew United Flight 175 into the south tower of the World Trade Center. He is seen in video of 1999 wedding in Hamburg, Germany.

    BERLIN May 7, 2003 (CBS News/AP) -- A wedding video shot in a Hamburg mosque has been broadcast for the first time and shows grainy scenes of Sept. 11 al Qaeda suicide pilots celebrating with other alleged plotters, possibly including suspects still not formally identified.

    The video of the October 1999 wedding of Said Bahaji being celebrated in a large room at the al Quds mosque -- suspected as a recruiting center for al Qaeda operatives -- has been in the hands of investigators since shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks on New York and Washington.

    In the immediate aftermath of the terror attacks, the Bahaji wedding video provided investigators critical links between the suicide hijackers and other suspected members of the Hamburg cell.

    Attorney General John Ashcroft cited the video at a news conference with German Interior Minister Otto Schily on Oct. 31, 2001. Ashcroft noted that Zakariya Essabar, a Moroccan who left Germany on Sept. 6, 2001, and remains at large, appeared along with Ziad Jarrah, suspected pilot of the hijacked plane that crashed in Pennsylvania, and Marwan al-Shehhi, suspected of piloting a jet into the south tower of the World Trade Center.

    Atta Under Surveillance by CIA and Mossad
    .

    Why were the terrorists shielded?
    .
    WSWS August 10, 2005 -- There have been repeated accounts, particularly in the German media, about Atta being under surveillance by the CIA while he was living in Hamburg, and about this surveillance continuing after he shifted his activities to the United States in the summer of 2000, apparently by the Israeli secret service Mossad (the CIA not being permitted to conduct its own surveillance operations on US soil).

    Reports were carried by the television network ARD, the magazine Der Spiegel, and major daily newspapers like the Berliner Zeitung and Die Zeit. Their accounts, have the CIA beginning surveillance of Atta in Hamburg in January 2000, following him during a trip to Frankfurt, where he purchased chemicals that could be used in making explosives. Right up to the point where he visited the US embassy in Berlin, on May 18, 2000 and obtained an US entry visa. Atta flew to the United States from Prague, capital of the neighboring Czech Republic, on June 3, 2000.

    Both Der Spiegel and Die Zeit reported that Mossad kept Atta under surveillance while he was attending flight school in south Florida in 2000 and early 2001. At one point, after a trip to Europe, Atta was stopped by a customs officer when re-entering the US at Miami International Airport, because his visa was invalid. Nonetheless, he was allowed in.

    Finally, on August 23, 2001, Mossad presented to the CIA a list of 19 named Islamic fundamentalist terrorists living in the United States and said to be planning an imminent attack. Aside from the chilling coincidence in the number--19 Islamic fundamentalists participated in the September 11 attacks--the Israeli list actually named four of the future hijackers, including Mohammed Atta.

    The Hamburg Connection
    BERLIN BBC News August 19, 2005 -- German prosecutors said the Hamburg cell consisted of eight members: three suicide pilots, three logistical planners and two others whose role remains vague, but who might also have become suicide pilots. The cell was active and embarking on the plot to attack US targets by the summer of 1999, the prosecutors said.

    Shared apartment
    Mohammed Atta, a wealthy Egyptian, is believed to have been a key figure in the Hamburg cell, but also the ringleader of all 19 of the 9/11 hijackers.

    In 1996, Motassadek signed Atta's will along with Abdelghani Mzoudi, a fellow Moroccan who was acquitted by the same Hamburg court in February.

    Mr Mzoudi shared a Marien Street apartment in Hamburg with Atta and suspected top al-Qaeda operative Ramzi Binalshibh, who is in US custody. Mr Binalshibh claimed in a television interview to have been a mastermind behind the 9/11 plot. Along with Atta, the Hamburg-based suicide pilots were identified as Marwan al-Shehhi and Ziad Jarrah.

    Motassadek operated a bank account under Shehhi's name - allegedly used to fund flight lessons in America and provide the expenses for American visa applications for the group. Shehhi, from the United Arab Emirates, and Jarrah, from Lebanon, also lived in the Marien Street flat at various times.

    Atta in final month before 9/11 attacks, used a local cab many times during nighttime hours.
    Daniel Hopsicker has a new piece that goes beyond the Able Danger tale:

    "Was the Pentagon Tracking Mohamed Atta Just Days Before 9.11 Attack?"

    Warrick's RentaCar in Pompano Beach, FL, and picking up Siad Al-Jarrah at the airport in Miami, the MadCowMorningNews has learned that a self-described former NAVY SEAL named Joe Gesell applied for and was hired as the night driver (they only need one) at Venice Yellow Cab.

    Gesell squired Atta around Venice and Sarasota in his cab on a number of occasions. What raises suspicions that he may have been working for more than just tips is this: after starting his new job on the day of Atta's return, Gesell quit a month later, just one day after Atta left town for the last time.

    European court cases of 9/11 suspects and support groups in Germany and Spain should offer new evidence in complot leading up to U.S. attacks.

  •  From my highly developed (4.00)
    ability to interpret statistical data, it is apparent from your graph that if I become a pirate, then I will be significantly assisting in stopping global warming.
     I have always wanted to be a pirate, heck I had planned to be one some day anyway. This whole global warming thing is just a huge bonus! Thanks dude..er..Matey!
  •  What makes me convinced (4.00)
    LIHOP (whoever that is) is correct is this.

    Let's start with what we know.  We know this admin was committed to war in Iraq immediately after they took office.  It's crystal clear from any number of sources.

    We know this admin is full of neo-cons, starting with Cheney and Rummy and Feith.  The list is endless.  A basic tenet of neoconservatism is that if you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.  

    We know this admin downplayed or ignored anything to do with anti-terrorism.  From demoting Richard Clarke on down, it's clear they were covering their eyes and ears.  Why would they do that, unless they didn't want to know.  If you read Richard Clarke's book, you'd know he was frantic to be heard all through the spring and summer.  He knew something was going to happen.  He'd even gone to Tenet, and Tenet more or less shrugged.  What about the coincidence that Condi finally let him be heard right before the attack?  Too late to do anything, but not to late to CYA.  

    I don't necessarily believe they knew planes were going to hit the towers, but they knew something was going to happen, and wanted it to so they could implement their program.

    The clincher in facing that reality is the anthrax attacks that happened immediately after 9/11.  It's a certainty that the anthrax came from Fort Detrick in Maryland, a government facility.  The letters were designed to implicate and throw suspicion on Arabs.  And the targets were, for the most part, the liberal media, not to mention US Senators, and was meant as a warning.

    The first anthrax attack occurred on September 18, a week after 9/11.  Putting that highly weaponized anthrax into envelopes and getting them mailed out had to be a complicated process.  I wonder if it could even be done in a matter of a few days, which it would have had to, if you include the time in the mail transit.

    We're not talking about the Boy Scouts here.  We're talking about people who paid money to people to get the 'lie' to become truth.  Chalabi, anyone?  Or how about the phoney documents about the Niger sale to Saddam?  Where did they origniate?  At least Vincent Cannistaro, the former CIA head of counterterrorism operations and intelligence director at the National Security Council under Ronald Reagan, thinks it it came from within the US.

    http://www.alternet.org/story/21704

    I have no doubt some people think I'm wearing a tin foil hat.  I don't think so.

    •  Cannistraro has all but named AIPAC Director, (none)
      Michael Ledeen, as the source of the forged Niger Yellowcake documents.

      By the way, everything that happened leading up to 9/11 is consistent with the way that intelligence agencies run networks of informants and double-agents.  They are allowed to travel freely, routinely shielded from law enforcement, and handled through cut-outs (such as "friendly" intel agencies) in case something goes wrong, so that plausible deniability can be maintained.

      That's what seems to have happened on 9/11.  Think about the facts and how they fit this standard operating model for intelligence operations.  Now, compare it with LIHOP.  Tell us how you think LIHOP fits better.  By the way, there may have been elements of both at work here at some levels, but LIHOP did not operate throughout the process.

  •  Minor point on the graph (none)
    Horizontal axis looks like its first entry is a typo - it needs to be greater than 45000, not less.  Maybe they meant '55000'?
  •  My biggest problem with LIHOP (none)
    Let assume for a moment that the Bush admin knew about 9/11 in advance. (A very big assumption, not warranted in the evidence, imho). If they wanted to let something go ahead, (another big assumption), wouldn't the more logical course be to let it be seen that Admin reacted immediately, saving thousands of lives? It's the attack that's key not the outcome. The Bush admin would have gotten even more political capital out of letting the first plane hit, and shooting the others down.

    I've always felt the same way about the theories that FDR knew Pearl harbor would be attacked. Why sacrifice the fleet? The air raid would have been cause for war enough, even if we'd had all our fighters in the air waiting.

  •  So how does... (none)
    ...Sibel Edmonds fit into all this?  She's clearly been dropping hints about foreign government influence reaching into the highest echelons of Congress and the WH, with her information regarding Denny Hastert and Turkish lobbying interests.  My guess is that's just the tip of the iceberg, and she knows a hell of a lot more damning evidence that might implicate conspirators in 9/11 (possibly Abramoff, or people close to him) with top government officials.

    Does anyone know of Turkish-Saudi links?  Or maybe even Azerbajani-Saudi links?  She says in her interview that she's gagged from saying exactly what language she has proficiency in which she was the ONLY FBI translator for.  My guess is Azerbajani, as we know the FBI had other Turkish translators, and I'd guess they also had Farsi translators as well.

    So if I had to start digging, I'd start with Azerbaijan, she hasn't said ANYTHING about this connection at all (prob. because she's gagged).  My guess is that, while interesting, the Turkish scandals are merely a side-show to demonstrate an example of what's really going on, and I'd bet that she's not explicitly gagged on the Turkish matters.  But that's all just a guess.

    People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

    by viget on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 08:59:36 AM PDT

    •  Yes, it's Azarbaijani (none)
      She says so in her recent interview:  http://www.antiwar.com/orig/horton.php?articleid=7032

      What do you think is the significance of that?  Strategically, Azarbaijan is the center of the Caspian Sea oil and natural gas basin.  It is also ground-zero of the bloodless energy grab the Clinton Administration pulled off during the 1990s in conjunction with the Chinese.

      Look at the map of South Central Asia.  See where Chechnya is, right there next to Azarbaijan.  Recall how the CIA and the Saudis confounded the Soviets in nearby Afghanistan, and how UBL's career as an operator got started under their mutual tutelage.  Recall also how a few years later al-Qaeda was operating in Chechnya and other southern former breakaway Soviet republics.  History cetainly repeats itself, if you let it.

      I would think the Russians are still mightily pissed off about all that.  

      It's the Great Game, and it goes on.  9/11 is just another chapter.

    •  Siebel and Abramoff money laundering (none)
      CANNONFIRE: Was Abramoff linked to terrorists?

      Of course, we have Sibel Edmond's open letter to Thomas Kean, Chairman of the National Committee on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States:

          To this date the public has not been told of intentional blocking of intelligence, and has not been told that certain information, despite its direct links, impacts and ties to terrorist related activities, is not given to or shared with Counterterrorism units, their investigations, and countering terrorism related activities. This was the case prior to 9/11, and remains in effect after 9/11. If Counterintelligence receives information that contains money laundering, illegal arms sale, and illegal drug activities, directly linked to terrorist activities; and if that information involves certain nations, certain semi-legit organizations, and ties to certain lucrative or political relations in this country, then, that information is not shared with Counterterrorism, regardless of the possible severe consequences. In certain cases, frustrated FBI agents cited 'direct pressure by the State Department,' and in other cases 'sensitive diplomatic relations' is cited.

      (Emphasis added.)

      All of which brings us to the question: Was Mohammed Atta involved in drugs or money laundering? Al Qaida did make its home in a country whose only real exportable crop was the poppy flower.

      Was SunCruz involved in drugs or money laundering? Federal investigators have looked into that very possibility. Gus Boulis cannot testify -- but we an be certain that Abramoff and Kidon wanted his ships very badly. For some reason.

      Just like Welfare, Modern Medicine must end: 60 years of it and we still have illness in US

      by lawnorder on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 05:11:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Foreign contributions to U.S. political campaigns (none)
    are illegal, are they not?  (I remember reading that when there were accusations that Clinton got Chinese money.)  So to what extent would these Saudi money transfers have been illegal?
  •  Leaps and connections (none)
    This is perhaps too big a leap for what we now know

    However, you could probably assert that

    • Repub operatives like Abramahoff and others have been cozy with, done business for a variety of wealthy Saudis
    • Some of those Saudis have been involved in funding organizations and individuals with direct or indirect links to terror
    • People in the know knew this back then
    • There were govt policies in place to divert investigations away from well-connected Saudis
    • Prior to 911, the fact of an individual being a potential terrorist or subscribing to extremist Islamic views was not always considered sufficient reason to deport them, imprison them, etc.  Some of these folks were monitored or in some cases info was just kept on file, but that's about all.

    • 911 resulted in a sea change in govt attitudes towards this whole murky world of money, oil, mid-east politics, islamic extremist movements and violent extremist individuals

    • Prior to 911 for a variety of reasons such a sea change was not pushed.  Some of the reasons had to do with finance/business interests; ties of friendship, family and intelligence connections to mid-east power brokers; some with diplomacy, non-interference in sovereignty; some with a history of govt hands off internal dynamics of religions; some with civil rights on American soil; and some with nefarious geo-political strategies and domestic political calculations

    • In some cases these networks were thought to serve strategic purposes (helping disassemble Soviet and Yugoslav mega-states)
    • These networks got out of control, too widespread, too savvy, too rich, too well-armed, no new war to divert them to fighting and they turned their sights increasingly directly on the US and so a shift in strategy became inevitable.  911 was the tipping point.  If 911 had not happened, a tipping point would necessarily have occurred in any case, because of these factors.
    • The US public was historically largely unaware of all these factors.  911 led to a massive information infusion into the American psyche about all these dynamics.

    • Prior to 911, business was done in a particular way, that was amoral and unwise in many cases, but it was a particular approach to world-management.  After 911 new approaches have been evolving, that in some cases seem more legitimate (arrest terrorists) and in other cases are just involved with new, different, murky, amoral equations.

    The good part about investigating this is Americans become aware of what makes this world go round now and in the past, and can get involved in deciding if that's the sort of behavior they want to support.
    •  A new legitimacy in foreign policy will not be (4.00)
      realized until we have prosecuted the worst miscreants responsible for the Crimes of 9/11.

      It's an original sin in the genesis of this Administration and is the greatest injustice that devides Americans.  Successful prosecution is essential to this country's national security and survival as a constitutional republic.

      The officers of the nation's military and intelligence services have sworn an oath to protect the Constitution, not to insure the political survival of any particular President or Administration or elected official or political Party.  

      It is the duty of all sworn federal officers to publicly reveal what they know of the details that led up to the attack and the subsequent cover-up by the White House, at the Central Intelligence Agency, and by civilian appointees in the Department of Defense.

  •  Don't forget the casinos! (none)
    Reportedly, Atta frequented Abramoff's floating casinos. And abramoff and Ralph Reed have been involved in the Indian casinos as well. Sounds to me like it was a way of laundering money. Would also be a way to meet with Atta and provide him the financial support withhout raising red flags.
    And while it may be too painful for some to believe, belive it. I cannot help but think that the 9-11 attack was planned. Do you really think, after killing more prisoners in Texas than anyone in history, after slaughtering so many innocent Iraqi civlians, after almost 2000 US soldiers KIA and so many more maimed for life, that Bush gives a good God damn about human life? The neo-cons look at New Yorkers as just a bunch of damned liberals. They don't care. To them, the people who died there were "collaterqal damage" nothing more.
    And as for the WTC, there are too many unanswered questions about why the buildings fell. It wasn't the jet fuel. That burns off quickly. There are suggestions that there were explosives in the base of the buildings.
    Heck, call us crazy if you want, but those of us who believe in the conspiracy will not be stopped until we have the answers. And ask yourself, those who disbelieve, if it's so crazy, why aren't the questions being answered? Why the continued cover-up(s) into anything having to do with 9-11?
    The devil works in mysterious ways. he is not some guy in a red suit with horns. he is incarnate on earth as much as the force of God. It is those in the neo-con movement who are doing his work. And those of us who believe in right, justice and goodness must fight the good fight to vanquish them.
    Never forget:
    Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized. In the first it is ridiculed, in the second it is opposed, in the third it is regarded as self-evident
  •  You don't believe that global warming (none)
    is tied to the decline of pirates?

    Come on, the ties are simple: Pirates hurt the shipping industry. The shipping industry burns fuel for their boats. Carbon fuels create a greenhouse effect when burned. Greenhouse effect causes a rise in global temperatures. In conclusion, the more pirates there are, the more the shipping industry is hurt, the fewer gallons of fuel are burned, the less greenhouse effect, the lower temperatures are in the world.

    Very simple.

    •  Ironic: Global warming might end up being tied... (none)
      ...to an increase in pirates. Ever seen "Waterworld"? A $200 million box office flop, but the ice caps ARE melting.

      If the Republicans stay in power much longer, An Army of One isn't going to be just a slogan.

      Edwards/Clark 2008

      by MeanBoneII on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 09:58:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Decline of Pirates is a second-order effect (4.00)
      Global Warming increases hurricanes, which then disrupt piracy operations. Don't take my word, listen to the expert:


      Pirate Spokesman Jack Abramoff discusses the
      impact of recent hurricanes on the pirate industry.

      •  Please don't insult Pirates! (4.00)
        Pitrates were the first democrats, as a friend of mine liks to say. They shared their booty with all thr crew and dispensed justice when necessary. They stole from teh rich.
        What the neo-cons (including Abramoff, the money man)have done and are doing is nothing more than rampant stealing from the poor to make themselves rich. They follow no laws, have no code. They are despicable.
        Pirates would be the ones attacking them, making them walk the plank and sharing their booty with the rest of us!
  •  There's lihop, then there's LIHOP (4.00)
    I'm no conspiracy freak, and I don't think even the craven Bushies would let the 9/11 plot happen without intervention. But, then, we know with hindsight what the 9/11 plot's intention was -- to crash planes into large public buildings. That's "LIHOP." (Until today, I had never heard that acronism)

    I do think that Bushies ARE craven enough for "lihop". In lihop, the "i" isn't the destruction of the two largest office buildings in NY, and the attempt to destroy the largest office building in the world (the Pentagon).

    In "lihop," "i" is a simple, old-school hijacking by islamic terrorists. The kind of thing that may kill a couple dozen passengers. Remember, before 9/11, even a simple hijacking would have fired up the crowd: "Let's get them motherfuckers!"

    As we know, Bush was looking for a way to get into Iraq, and I could see how "lihop" would serve up just the opportunity.

    On the morning on 9/11, when Bush had that blank stare after being told of the twin Trade Center attacks, mabe what he was really thinking was "They weren"t supposed to do THAT!"

    •  I've thought the same thing. (none)
      You can believe they "let it happen" -- without knowing exactly what IT would be -- to advance their agenda. They certainly had their agenda ready to roll:

      "This is an act of WAR." -- President Bush, Sept. 12, 2001.

      "The entire conversation (on Sept. 12, 2001) left me in absolutely no doubt that George Bush wanted me to come back with a report that said, 'Iraq did this.'" -- Richard Clarke

      If the Republicans stay in power much longer, An Army of One isn't going to be just a slogan.

      Edwards/Clark 2008

      by MeanBoneII on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 09:52:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Your thinking makes a great deal of sense to me. (none)
    BTW, someone should scratch a little deeper around the Riggs Bank/Unka Jonathan Bush tie.

    Money laundering the old-fashioned way -- thru a family insider.

    A political Web site written by a Democratic operative drew attention yesterday to the fact that President Bush's uncle, Jonathan J. Bush, is a top executive at Riggs Bank, which this week agreed to pay a record $25 million in civil fines for violations of law intended to thwart money laundering.

    Jonathan Bush, who is a major fundraiser for his nephew, was appointed in 2000 to run Riggs Investment Management Co. His association with Riggs began when he headed J. Bush & Co., a New Haven, Conn., company he created in 1970 and built to offer advice on money management.

    Be interested to know if Unka Jonathan did any trading in airline puts for his "private" clients around Sept. 11, 2001.

  •  And we have confirmation of the hands off (none)
    on money laundering

    Letter to Thomas Kean from Sibel Edmonds

    .. To this date the public has not been told of intentional blocking of intelligence, and has not been told that certain information, despite its direct links, impacts and ties to terrorist related activities, is not given to or shared with Counterterrorism units, their investigations, and countering terrorism related activities. This was the case prior to 9/11, and remains in effect after 9/11. If Counterintelligence receives information that contains money laundering, illegal arms sale, and illegal drug activities, directly linked to terrorist activities; and if that information involves certain nations, certain semi-legit organizations, and ties to certain lucrative or political relations in this country, then, that information is not shared with Counterterrorism, regardless of the possible severe consequences. In certain cases, frustrated FBI agents cited `direct pressure by the State Department,' and in other cases `sensitive diplomatic relations' is cited. The Department of Justice Inspector General received detailed and specific information and evidence regarding this issue (Please refer to DOJ-IG report Re: Sibel Edmonds and FBI Translation, provided to you prior to the completion of your report)...

    After almost three years the American people still do not know that thousands of lives can be jeopardized under the unspoken policy of `protecting certain foreign business relations.' The victims family members still do not realize that information and answers they have sought relentlessly for over two years has been blocked due to the unspoken decisions made and disguised under `safeguarding certain diplomatic relations.'

    Just like Welfare, Modern Medicine must end: 60 years of it and we still have illness in US

    by lawnorder on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 06:59:25 PM PDT

  •  Michael Chertoff / Al Qaeda (none)
    a tale of money laundering, bin Laden, the Taliban, arms sales, terrorism and two Egyptian brothers: Dr. Magdy el-Amir, a New Jersey neurologist who funded Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman (convicted in the 1993 World Trade Center Bombing) and Mohamed el Amir, an engineer who happens to share the same name and occupation as another infamous Egyptian, Mohammad Atta.

    Guess who represented Dr. el-Amir? None other than Michael Chertoff.

    And who was the U.S. Attorney for the District of New Jersey when the first attack on the World Trade Center took place?  Why, again, Michael Chertoff.

    And that brings us up to Operation Diamondback's informant, Randy Glass.

    At one meeting at New York's Tribeca Grill caught on tape, Abbas pointed to the World Trade Center and said, "Those towers are coming down," Glass said."

    "In August 2001, just before Glass started to serve a seven-month sentence for a $6 million jewelry scam, he said he reached out to Sen. Bob Graham and U.S. Rep. Robert Wexler. He said he told staffers for both lawmakers that a Pakistani operative working for the Taliban known as R.G. Abbas made three references to imminent plans to attack the World Trade Center during the probe, which ended in June 2001.

    And just who was in in charge of the Criminal Division when Operation Diamondback was shut down?  Michael Chertoff, who was appointed Assistant Attorney General, under John Ashcroft in early 2001 and was placed.

    http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2005/9/27/4132/34596#12

    Just like Welfare, Modern Medicine must end: 60 years of it and we still have illness in US

    by lawnorder on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 07:27:47 PM PDT

    •  Who is Chertoff (none)
      Daily Kos: Michael Chertoff Named to Head Homeland Security

      Chertoff is a Harvard Law grad, clerked for Justice William Brennan (of all people), and served as Republican counsel on the Senate Whitewater Committee in the early 1990's (at the behest of Sen D'Amato).

      He was Associate Attorney General for the Criminal Division under John Ashcroft, where he was responsible for prosecution of terror suspects.  Elaine Cassel makes the case that Chertoff was instrumental in trying to establish the principle that Ashcroft's Justice Department could put aside legal protections for defendants whenever it chose.  He was later named to the Third Circuit Court of Appeals by Pres. Bush in early 2003.

      Just like Welfare, Modern Medicine must end: 60 years of it and we still have illness in US

      by lawnorder on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 07:30:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Remember that comment from Kerry ? (none)

    Just like Welfare, Modern Medicine must end: 60 years of it and we still have illness in US

    by lawnorder on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 07:28:48 PM PDT

  •  Chertoff again (none)
    Ok, 2 questions:

    1. Bob Graham seems to be "forgetting" he was warned about the plot to destroy the towers. Yet the man was well known for being an obssessive note taker that recorded in his diary EVERYTHING he did, including the bathroom breaks and meals he had. The notebooks were preserved for historic purposes. Where is the notebook for that period ?

    2. Chertoff lets the blind Sheik Omar's mosque remain active recruiting terrorists. He gets promoted while the lawyer for Sheik Omar is arrested for trying to avoid that some of her interviews w/him were recorded... Huh ?

    The plot thickens -- law

    New Jersey and Terrorism...Perfect Together; terrorism is operating in NJ unchecked, and Bush's Justice Dept knows about it. a four part series

    Just like Welfare, Modern Medicine must end: 60 years of it and we still have illness in US

    by lawnorder on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 07:52:46 PM PDT

  •  Leap? (none)
    Late on the scene, I know, just read this on the train home... But I just wanted to say that I respect and appreciate your due diligence in disclaiming the leap-of-faith aspects of your data-mining results. And your breakdown of the methodology is quite nice. Personally, the extent of my skepticism in these discussions can generally be summed up with, "How can this theory possibly be accurate when the truth is probably so much worse?"

    Seriously, though, in respect to the specific leap of faith you point to ("Abramoff knew of Mohamed Atta because he brought Saudi money into US"): The allegations surrounding Atta may or may not be true as stated. However, how far from the truth do they need to be to make this line of reasoning basically sound? And assuming they point in the right direction -- say, an as-yet unidentified associate of Atta's or Chams' actually moved the funds, or anything along those lines not stated exactly -- what's the likelihood that the rest doesn't actually fall into place?

    I guess I'm saying that if I'm going to wear tinfoil, this is the street I'll do my shopping on.

    Violent means will give violent freedom.
    -Gandhi

    by DjW on Tue Sep 27, 2005 at 10:43:32 PM PDT

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