Kos diarist
Expat Briton wrote an interesting diary yesterday entitled
Fetuses cannot feel pain. It was about a commentary in the British Medical Journal's "Education and debate" section by psychologist
Stuart Derbyshire expressing his
opinion that unborn fetuses (any stage of gestation) cannot feel pain.
Diaries about abortion are almost as popular as fuck diaries around here, so of course I went on over to see what was what. This one had some lively discussion, but drifted off to diary heaven too quickly. There was a good response to my position from the poster and fellow James McMurtry fan Karma for All that provided a good opportunity for me to expand my thoughts. So I hope Expat and Karma won't mind me doing that in a new diary, because that's just what I'm doing here below the fold.
Karma's response to me in Expat's diary:
I don't think it's a matter of "discounting the fetus" or coping. I think it's a matter of having something proven by scientific method. If you don't believe in this as a way to find conclusive evidence, that's an opinion you're entitled to, but you really ought to try not to rationalize what other people believe while discounting the reasons others believe it. I'm much more in agreement with your earlier contention that "it is every woman's personal decision" than I am with the assumptions you made here.
Dear Karma; you say the opinion of a single psychologist writing a commentary in a journal's discussion section provides scientific "proof" based on "conclusive evidence" that fetuses cannot feel pain. But that's not the case at all. In fact, Derbyshire himself claims his opinion is that subjective experience cannot occur because "mind" doesn't come into being until well after birth. It's all just "reflex," which is what someone told me about my pet goat a long time ago and still makes me laugh out loud.
The actual physical evidence demonstrates that avoidance reactions and neural wiring is present in fetuses as early as 20 weeks - and other authoritative semi-scientists (psychology is sort of borderline) have concluded from the same evidence that fetuses of that gestational stage and greater can indeed feel pain. Derbyshire doesn't even count birth itself as a painful experience, and that's yet another personal opinion that holds no authority with medical practitioners or mothers.
Go ahead and read the Commentary itself, as if you were parsing political a story in the NYT or WaPost looking for the standard spin, deceptions and lies we've come to expect. See if you can spot the agenda, and ask yourself whether this opinion piece merits the status of "scientific proof." Can you spot the qualifiers and parse them to get a sense of the provisionality of Derbyshire's assertions? It's really a fine subject of study, and can prove enlightening if you care to dig into it.
I happen to be a participant in some nifty cognitive/neurological research (on 3 continents!) and have been involved for over a decade with the multidisciplinary scientific quest to quantify consciousness. So I'm not a total rube about these subjects, and I'm not impressed with Derbyshire's self-satisfied subversion of real science to his political agenda. Even though I do support women's reproductive choice.
I see Derbyshire's commentary as a highly questionable misuse of science, and a personal opinion derived from an extrapolation that is completely unwarranted by the evidence that does exist. If we want science to be freed of its bondage to partisan politics (see Global Warming), we're going to have to decry the subversion of science toward our policies too. That's fair.
1. Science doesn't deal in "proof." A non-falsifiable hypothesis doesn't qualify, and neither does one person's personal opinion based on gratuitous and unsupported extrapolations.
2. The evidence supports the conclusion that fetuses can process pain from about the 20th week. It does not support the opinion that the unborn all the way up to and past live birth cannot feel pain.
3. Because the issue is mortal pain inflicted on fetuses clearly human and almost-baked (26-week fetuses survive quite well these days), moral/ethical and compassionate response should be to alleviate possible pain as SOP.
4. I have known more than a handful of people who survived coma states that Derbyshire would no doubt say rendered them insensitive to pain, contact, voices, etc. All of them awoke to say they were very much aware, they just didn't have the ability to respond. Such cases are thick in medical literature, and tell us clearly that those who choose to believe comatose people feel and understand nothing are wrong. True scientific answer to these questions? - We Don't Know.
Science can't "prove" anything about anyone's subjective experience. Neither can psychology. But science can give us a clear indication of whether an idea is more likely to be correct or incorrect. And what I have concluded about Derbyshire's commentary is that it's not science. It's opinion. A 6 - 12 week fetus probably can't feel pain, and this is when the vast majority of convenience abortions are performed. We can recognize and appreciate that late term abortions do present certain moral/ethical dilemmas for a great many citizens. And we can admit that we can't legislate conscience away. Women facing a medically necessary late term abortion often ask their doctors about possible fetal pain. There's no sound reason to lie to them.
There are medical conditions that require late term abortion. This is a sad thing, and entirely a doctor/patient situation. The government's got no business inserting itself into something that personal and should simply back off. We don't need to claim these babies can't feel pain because that claim won't serve our position.
Derbyshire has taken some fairly radical positions in his career. Check out his stance on animal testing for instance. I would not be surprised if he's a follower of the many notable scientists who have advocated infanticide and forced euthanasia as part of their "New Eugenics" dreams. I will certainly advise the Democratic Party to stay as far away from this sort of bullshit as possible, because if they start embracing it they'll never win another election in this country. And they'd deserve it too. My opinion.