Daily Kos

Zephyr's miscalculation

Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:20:14 PM PDT

I once had the words "Zephyr can go to hell" attributed to me in a NY Times Magazine article, even though I said them jokingly to the reporter. Now, I repeat them not so jokingly.

Here's the "controversy", courtesy of the Wall Street Journal:

Howard Dean's presidential campaign hired two Internet political "bloggers" as consultants so that they would say positive things about the former governor's campaign in their online journals, according to a former high-profile Dean aide.

Zephyr Teachout, the former head of Internet outreach for Mr. Dean's campaign, made the disclosure earlier this week in her own Web log, Zonkette. She said "to be very clear, they never committed to supporting Dean for the payment -- but it was very clearly, internally, our goal." The hiring of the consultants was noted in several publications at the time.

From the same article:
The two men, who jointly operated a small political consulting firm, said they didn't believe the Dean campaign had been trying to buy their influence. Both men noted that they had promoted Mr. Dean's campaign long before they were hired and continued to do so after their contract with the campaign ended.

Mr. Zuniga said they were paid $3,000 a month for four months and he noted that he had posted a disclosure near the top of his daily blog that he worked for the Dean campaign doing "technical consulting." Mr. Armstrong said he shut down his site when he went to work for the campaign, then resumed posting after his contract ended.

(Psst, WSJ -- my last name is "Moulitsas". And I know you're a right-wing media outlet and all, but how about noting that two pro-Thune bloggers in South Dakota were paid over $30K by the Thune campaign without disclosing the fact?)

Jerome responds:

Zephyr says she bought us, but the facts are that I never blogged, and Markos had a prominent disclaimer. Oh, but we didn't know?  Right. I worked and worked on the net for 2 years to get the netroots behind Dean, and was asked by Joe Trippi to come to Burlington in December of 2002, and finally got there when I could, in August of 2003, signing an explicit consulting contract of our duties between Armstrong Zuniga and Dean for America. While there, I coordinated and directed the expenditures of all internet advertising for the campaign.

What Zephyr (who wanted our firm to hire her) just did was hand a return (unfactual though it is) to the Republican bloggers that are moving up against Democratic activists gaining traction against Armstrong Williams being a shill for the Republicans with taxpayer dollars.

Fact is, my consulting work for Dean was noted in over a dozen articles written at the time. And it was disclosed in this post, and in a front-page disclaimer, right under the site logo. (See the site on the Way Back Machine, and also notice how the Meetup graphic was for the Democratic Party, not the Dean campaign.)

So what's going on? Zephyr is obsessed with imposing journalistic standards on the blogosphere. We can debate the merits of this issue, and good points can be made on both sides (I think it's a dumb idea). But what Zephyr did, and which I find unconscionable, is that she took the Armstrong Williams issue, and made up shit about our involvement with the Dean campaign to score points.

And "made up shit" is the right way to word it. Jerome created the first Dean website in early 2002. He created the first Dean-centric blog. He signed up the Dean campaign for MeetUps and convinced Trippi to promote the service. In other words, Jerome was the father of the Dean netroots. That's why the Joe Trippi (not Zephyr!) eventually hired "us" (and by "us", I mean Jerome). As that WSJ article notes:

The Dean campaign's adroit use of the Internet helped make its long-shot effort credible.
And the person responsible for many of those successes was Jerome.

Jerome quit MyDD (which was bigger than Daily Kos at the time, traffic wise) and moved to Burlington to work the campaign, and eventually took over the campaign's online advertising. I did next to nothing (the campaign viewed me as an outsider and shot down just about every one of my suggestions), but I still slapped up that disclaimer since my firm was under contract.

Zephyr's efforts to score points for her pet cause has given Kos-obsessed wingnut bloggers an excuse to blur the Armstrong Williams issue. (And to those Kos-obsessed wingnuts I say -- "Hi!")

WilliamsGate is fucked up because 1) he took taxpayer money (it's your money, as Republicans like to say), and 2) he didn't disclose the payments. So how that can relate to the fact that 1) we didn't take taxpayer money, and 2) it was all disclosed, is beyond me. (I sort of "debate" this with Instapundit here.)

Bloggers will get hired by more and more campaigns, on both sides of the ideological divide, and I think that's a great thing. I'm generally out of the consulting biz (though I'll get back in if I feel inspired to do so), but others will get a shot, and they will deserve it. And as long as they disclose when their writing conflicts with their paid gigs, who gives a shit? Well, Zephyr, policewoman of the blogosphere does.

Update: Jeralyn over at TalkLeft goes disclosure crazy.

Update II: I toned down the title of this post. Zephyr has taken quite the beating and it's time for all of us to lay off. The message has been sent. Whether she understands the root of the problem is irrelevent. As far as I'm concerned, she's over. We should all move on.

As one poster noted, it's a target-rich environment out there. Let's train our guns on the real enemy.

Update III: Intrepid SF Chronicle columnist breaks story: "Dean consultant in Berkeley builds 'blog' into influential tool". One year ago!!

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  •  Yep (none / 1)

    thanks for clearing it up.  I've  been saying Zephyr sucks all day.

    Everybody dies alone.

    by Armando on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:08:30 PM PDT

    •  Markos, if you got paid (3.52 / 19)

      you sure did a lousy job supporting Dean.  I wasted more breath here during the primaries trying to get you on board than I care to mention.

      This is silly.  But it's repeated IN BOLD at The Raw Story, where our friend "trust me" Larisa claims to work.

      Angie and Bill: Colorado's bright future!

      by ubikkibu on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:13:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wow, my first trollrating! (3.66 / 3)

        Perhaps I deserved it for flaming Larisa?  (Do go visit The Raw Story to see their breathless repetition of the WSJ stuff, please.)

        But my other point was that Daily Kos did not seem to me much of a Dean cheerleading blog when I first visited nearly a year and a half ago.

        Peace and love, see you lot tomorrow.

        Angie and Bill: Colorado's bright future!

        by ubikkibu on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:34:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Why the troll ratings? (4.00 / 4)

        Can someone please explain to me the troll ratings here?

        Am I the only one reading this as a compliment to Kos?  As in, the poster is making the point that Kos' writings were obviously not purchased?

        •  Standing By All Exploding Pants! (none / 1)

          Let us reason, not rate.  

          Now and then -- and quite possibly always -- simplistic numerical supremacy is the death of thought and progress.

          Translation:  Stop with the games and chase the REAL rabbit.  The White House has been caught buying the fifth estate.  Accept no tangents, my beloved chill'un !!!

          Never mind rating things -- GET TO WORK.

          "Injustice wears ever the same harsh face wherever it shows itself." - Ralph Ellison

          by KateCrashes on Fri Jan 14, 2005 at 03:03:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Standing By All Exploding Pants! (none / 1)

          Let us reason, not rate.  

          Now and then -- and quite possibly always -- simplistic numerical supremacy is the death of thought and progress.

          Translation:  Stop with the games and chase the REAL rabbit.  The White House has been caught buying the fifth estate.  Accept no tangents, my beloved chill'un !!!

          Never mind rating things -- GET TO WORK.

          "Injustice wears ever the same harsh face wherever it shows itself." - Ralph Ellison

          by KateCrashes on Fri Jan 14, 2005 at 03:07:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  the troll-raters mind (none / 0)

          They read "Hey markos, you did a lousy job supporting the Dean campaign..." and stopped, quite obviously COMPLETELY missing the entire point of the post.

          But that's understandable.. it's like my 3rd-grade teacher told me: you should be able to infer the meaning from the topic sentence.  The grandparent had a bad topic sentence.. my third-grade teacher would be disappointed, just like our third-grade troll-rater!

          Internet != Truck

          by ragnark on Fri Jan 14, 2005 at 05:25:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Because I suck, and because I'm tired (none / 0)

        I didn't realize who you were flaming.

        Duh.

        Hence, I rated you up.


        You looked better on Facebook...

        by Plutonium Page on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:42:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Did Kos ever endorse Dean? (none / 0)

        I started reading dKos daily in July '03.  He had the disclosure at the top of the page that he did some technical consulting for the Dean campaign.  About six months later he wrote a posting that mentioned that he actually hadn't consulted for Dean in a long time, but still had that up there just to offer full disclosure.

        Meanwhile, he also wrote in a few postings about how he had been one of the original architects of the Draft Clark effort, then became frustrated that Clark didn't enter (he wrote this mid-summer '03).

        I noticed that he sometimes wrote postings that praised something the Dean campaign was doing.  He also wrote some critical ones.  Same was true for many of the other Dem presidential candidates.  

        It seemed like his disclosure suggested that he was supporting Dean, and that led a lot of Dean supporters to join dKos, but it was never clear to me that Kos himself was 100% for Dean.

        In February when Kos formally endorsed John Edwards, I remember thinking that this was Kos' first formal endorsement of any presidential candidate.  

        I think Kos did a great job of disclosing his consulting gig with the Dean campaign, creating a space where supporters of various candidates could feel comfortable, and pioneering all of this with no model to emulate.

        Matt Stoller replied to Zephyr's piece on Zonkette with a comment about how any journalist or blogger will have some biases, whether they are paid or not.  It seems to me a regular reader of a blog will figure out those biases and read with that filter and skeptism.  When I'm not familiar with an author or a speaker, I always wonder about what their hidden biases might be.  Maybe everyone doesn't do that, but it seems like an important skill in the Information Era (or the too-much-information era).

        •  Well, (none / 1)

          if you are going to work for a candidate for pay, it is pretty implicit that you support that candidate.

          Otherwise, the alternative explanation looks much, much worse.

          All I read on this blog during those months was Dean, Dean, Dean, with a little bit of Clark thrown in for good measure.

          Kos wanted to hitch himself to a rising star, and for a time he did.

          It's pretty clear this site cannot be taken seriously as any kind of political force, and it was demonstrated quite clearly in the primaries that just because somebody gets a ton of publicity and raises a lot of money online, that doesn't translate into victory in the real voting world.

          In any case, none of this has to do with the Armstrong Williams scandal, as much as the right would like to muddy the waters.

      •  Zephyr never struck (none / 0)

        me as the brightest bulb when it came to political smarts, either (for what it's worth.)

        I used to read her posts regularly on BFA and I even met her once in person when she came to our city to meet with  us.

        She seemed like a very nice person, but when it came  to political savvy and shrewdness, after awhile I got the impression that she lacked these qualities.

        Perhaps this also explains her fuck up in being involved in this latest fiasco.

        And for what it's worth, I can testify to the fact that Markos posted full disclosure on his website.  He said quite clearly on the front that he did paid consulting work for the Dean campaign.

        The reason this is significant is because on atrios' site some wingnut troll posted the "news" about Markos as if he had never disclosed the fact of his involvement in the Dean campaign, as if somehow Markos had been hiding something and had been busted.

        This just goes to show how FUCKIN' STUPID and UNINFORMED  wingnuts are, and  how much they unquestioningly buy into right wing/GOP talking points fed to them by the right wing shills.

    •  Yes, Yes (none / 0)

      Thank you so much for making it all crystal clear.  I've been saying Zephyr sucks for two days!

      This aggression will not stand, man.

      by kaleidescope on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:27:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  She must be popular (2.50 / 2)

      Sorry, I couldn't resist...back to the serious discussion now.  :-P

      Arrogant lips are unsuited to a fool-- how much worse lying lips to a ruler - Proverbs 17:7

      by BarbinMD on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:34:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Blogarchy (3.50 / 2)

      I think what we are seeing here is the beginning of the end of objective journalism.  Kos rightful can do whatever he wants with his site--property is property.  The gentility of the old newspaper era has ended, along with their elitism and highbrow ethics.  What we see now is true democratization of the media.  There are no journalistic standards for bloggers, nor should there be.  Bloggers blog, because they're seeking both to escape the elites and to make them their own.  Its biased, its rough and tumble, and its completely lacking in any aspiration to objectivity--other than what the individual blogger's personal philosophy allows for.  

      That, in a certain sense, is beautiful.  Objective journalism is a relic of the enlightenment--a long since discredited idea, in this new age of emergance theory and relativity.  We've ended the rain of the gatekeepers, and they are at a loss to know what to do, and what really scares them is that they can't control what happens next.  

      Out of the night that covers me, Black as the Pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever gods may be For my unconquerable soul.

      by Descrates on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:42:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Bite me (3.75 / 4)

        That's not it. Not it at all. Bloggers do have ethical obligations, to transparency, for example, and Kos met that standard. When he took the gig, he announced it on the front page, and left a brief disclosure statement linking to that post throughout primary season.

        What has my dander up is Teachout's attempt to troll for hits by equating Kos and Jerome's deal with Dean to Armstrong Williams's shameful, illegal shilling. And this utter horseshit about how the campaign was attempting to buy their loyalty.

      •  be careful what you wish for (4.00 / 2)

        This sort of "relativism" gives us stickers on science textbooks proclaiming that evolution is "just a theory" because a pitchfork wielding mob wants them there. Bashing objectivity is too easy--yes already, there isn't always already some organic narrative that sprouts from the bowels of the world-as-object to spread its hegemony. But for Christ's sake, what purpose does it serve to pretend that we are simply a lump of wax or whatever. There are observable phenomena and we have a duty to report what we observe--makes the gestalt processing apparatus to be self-calibrating don't you know.

        The object is not to obliterate the responsibility of the gatekeepers but to spread it around. The keymaster should not also be the gatekeeper--as with Brit Hume say or Armstrong Williams-- or too many shuvs and zools will know what it's like to be roasted in the depths of the Slor, I can tell you.

      •  Screw the media (4.00 / 2)

        I am sick of those hypocrites.  They moan about the blogs being partisan, and turn around and fund their own blogs that are equally partisan and equally biased.

        Lets see how unbiased the WSJ is...this looks an awful lot like a blog entry, it isn't an editorial, it isn't a news story, it isn't journalism.  It is a blog by James Taranto of the WSJ on a Kristof NY Times editorial.

        How is that journalism?  It uses an investigative methodology of the kind used by both bloggers and journalists, but does not restrict itself to advocating facts which is a pre-requisite to good journalism.  He quotes blogger Edward Morrisey as a source to support his position and gives him equal weight to CNN and the CDC here.

        Here is his bio.
          He is a long time Republican activist, actively working to advance right wing causes, including a stint at the Heritage Foundation, which is a Republican institution.

        I don't know what the Progress and Freedom Foundation is, but they hosted a meeting called the Aspen Summit, he gave the closing speach, I wonder if he was paid for that?  That would be a conflict of interest according to the WSJ position if he was.  I am sure there are more engagements like this that he has done, engagements for which he was paid.  According to the WSJ, that should invalidate him as a blogger, even if he supports and is philosophically aligned with those organizations.  

        Hypocrites.  

        Journalists should stick to journalism, bloggers to loose opinion and conjecture where the only standard is an individuals opinion.  That is what they do.

        Pride goeth before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall. Proverbs 16:8

        by PJ 7 on Fri Jan 14, 2005 at 12:52:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The GOP bloggers in South Dakota (none / 1)

      did not disclose their connection to the Thune campaign . It became public only after Thune's campaign reports were filed .  Their deception and the large amount of money they received suggest they were set up solely to serve the Thune campaign and the GOP . Their independence was probably a legal fiction .

      The GOP money machine corrupts everything , including the editorial writers at the Wall Street Journal .  What we get are the best ideas money can buy .

      As for Zephyr , she seems like a zealot but most likely she just longs to get a payout .

    •  Payolagate (none / 1)

      is really deep in the beltway.
      There's a reason CNN dropped Crossfire justr before this story broke.

      Plamegate=payola trail, Novak took money to out an operative in the field. This is money trail to treason that is being overlooked, thank the GOP God of Mammon that Porter Goss is busy covering the trail to this(just like the 9-11 money trail).

      Memogate was easily a plant of embedded bloggers.

      The kerning of Kos's font was genuine, such can't be said elsewhere. Instahack has goons like the LGF trolls show up. :(  Hey Instacracker those guys and the freeps went on a letter writing campaign to get a rapist freed (check my diary-The Hunting of Clinton...)

      Go ahead link the nazis up all ya want. "Green footballs" is a slang term for Hillbilly Heroin as well, how fuckin' ironic.

      You're in great company Glenny!

      Back to the thread topic of payola, there were other 'journalists' who blogged for the right (AWOL's cousin John Ellis the guy who called the 2000 election in FLA for Bush his cousin while working Fox news as election coverage man).

      Certainly his payback was quite generous. Not like anyone would investigate Jeb funneling him money from the Ashcroft Justice Dept.

      Hey let's float a few more trial balloons out there. Where there's stink there's shit. Flush Bush is not just a bumper sticker, it goes for his idealogical sluggish slime trail of libertarian wannabe followers/supporters/worshippers.

  •  Man, (2.32 / 25)

    you hate getting called out, don't you, Kos?  I honestly don't see what the big deal about it though.  You were paid by the campaign, you advertised that you were working with the campaig.  Woo-hoo.

    The GOP'ers will do with it what the GOP'ers will do with it.  Whatever.  Move on.  

    •  I don't see it as "getting called out" (3.33 / 3)

      When someone distorts what you did to the point where it's a borderline lie, I think it takes on a very different status than "getting called out".

      So I really don't understand your post. At all.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:14:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I rated marginal (none / 1)

      for the reasons Eugene states AND more importantly because the story just hit the WSJ and you act like it's nothing.

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:20:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  How this comment is being rated demonstrates (3.33 / 3)

      how sore some people get with honest dialogue. You don't have to agree when someone raises an issue, but if you're mature and have a sense of humor you may avoid getting pissy with the #2s and instead say something intelligent. These 2s are the perfect example of -- where did I hear it the other day--those who can't argue can only quarrel.

      "I haven't failed, I just found 100,000 ways that don't work." Albert Einstein

      by wilderchild on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:41:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  As you ignore the reasons (3.14 / 7)

        explained for the 2s, you don't have a leg to stand on, Mr. Intelligent Discussion.

        Everybody dies alone.

        by Armando on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 10:10:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Arguing about issues, thoughts, philosophy (none / 1)

          that's at the basis of democracy: Can't argue in a dictatorship. Give me a good argument or give me death!  That's all I'm saying. Too many ratings on this blog are because someone's feeling offended, or because a comment might be sarcastic, where someone's put up a legitimate idea that should be argued for or against, not given a 2.

          "I haven't failed, I just found 100,000 ways that don't work." Albert Einstein

          by wilderchild on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 11:17:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Still don't address the arguments (none / 0)

            You talk alot about discussion but you still don't address the facts that some raters explained their ratings.  Nor do you address the arguments presented for the ratings

            Everybody dies alone.

            by Armando on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 11:29:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Hey (none / 0)

        somebody 2 rated me (not you.) They must not like intelligent discussion.  Dunno cuz they didn't say why.

        Everybody dies alone.

        by Armando on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 11:10:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I gave you a 1 (3.33 / 9)

      For a post devoid of meaningful contribution to the topic at hand, which appeared to have as its sole purpose antagonism towards Kos and dismissal of the issues he raised.

      -AG

      "Watching George Bush trying to govern is like
      watching a monkey trying to f**k a football."
      I'm a libertarian, pro-2A capitalist Democrat.

      by AlphaGeek on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 10:06:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well said. (4.00 / 11)

    Republicans like to create stories where they don't exist, or take common knowledge and suddenly assume it's a scandal.

    It's the Capt. Renault approach to political discourse.

    "I am shocked, shocked to find that there is gambling going on in this establishment."

    "Your winnings, sir."

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
    Neither is California High Speed Rail

    by eugene on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:13:06 PM PDT

    •  They're diverting the attack away from where it (4.00 / 5)

      belongs; on right wing journalists getting paid with tax payer money to support a political agenda.

      The only thing we have to fear is fear itself - FDR. Obama Nation. -6.13 -6.15

      by ecostar on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:27:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yep (none / 0)

        and Zephyr gave them the tools to do it.

        Everybody dies alone.

        by Armando on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 11:37:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ah me... (none / 1)

          The Dean campaign wasn't ever much of one for message discipline.
        •  Zephyr wrote the post for a journalism conference (4.00 / 2)

           I think a lot of people don't realize she wrote the post for a conference at Harvard on Blogging, Journalism, and Credibility she's participating in on January 21st and 22nd (there also will be ways to be part of it online).

           So the timing of the post had nothing to do with Armstrong Williams, the timing was because of a conference.  And she's said this before in the NYT Magazine article.  

          And she said the same thing (among other things) when I met her for the first time and had dinner with her and some other people after Stephen Elliot and Josh Bearman read at City Lights in San Francisco the night of the third presidential debate.

           I do think it is important to raise these issues.

           And different people and institutions will reach different conclusions.   At most mainstream papers, a reporter is not supposed to work on a campaign or express a point of view in print or by marching in a demonstration.  At most alternative weeklies, reporters can express a point of view and march in a protest they're not covering, but couldn't work on a campaign.   On an indymedia site, people can post whatever they want.

          I don't think a blogger should not blog about someone they are working for or what they are working on as long as they disclose it.   Some people won't blog about their work, but many people will and hopefully they will think about these questions when they do.  And some may even write critical things about their work (which unfortunately may get them fired).

    •  Pretty much (4.00 / 3)

      We should really get on top of this trend the next time out.  OK?  Next time a big story breaks involving the Bush administration/right-wingers doing something really, really corrupt and/or criminal, let's start a countdown.  

      T-minus five days until somebody finds some liberal somewhere and makes up a batch of lies and half-truths in order to insinuate kinda sorta that some say, "look, the other side is doing the same thing!"  T-minus four days 'til they find a liberal, three days, two days..

      Except, well, Kos wasn't doing the same thing, at all.  Instapundit couldn't even find anything to gripe about beyond musing that the plain, clear disclosure statement somehow didn't go far enough.  ?????  I guess we all like to talk about ourselves though.  

  •  Payola inkscreen (4.00 / 14)

    Squid do this too, to muddy the waters.

    No good : the Williams scandal involves US taxpayer money.

    Like : a Payola version of Pravda.

    Derail attempt thwarted.

    Back to the real  scandal.

    •  Even worse (none / 0)

      Armstrong took taxpayer money specifically to push a Bush administration policy! And he pushed said policy without disclosure on the public airwaves, which means the "payola" laws may apply.

      'Kos took a private campaign's money, and he disclosed, even though he didn't need to - the payola laws don't apply to the Internet. It's a pretty far stretch to see any equivalency between the two cases.

      "Did I say 500 tons of sarin and 25,000 liters of anthrax? I meant 'weapons of mass destruction-related program activities.'" (-5.25, -5.64)

      by Mathwiz on Fri Jan 14, 2005 at 07:24:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Nothing to see here (none / 0)

    Thanks for batting that down so quickly with the facts.  I'm afraid that won't stop people from trying to use this to smear Dean and/or defend Williams, however.

    Barack Obama personifies the American dream

    by Jim in Chicago on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:13:30 PM PDT

  •  Now my memory may be foggy (none / 0)

    He [Jerome] created the first Dean-centric blog.

    Now my memory may be foggy but I'm pretty sure Aziz's Dean 2004 (aka the U-blog and now Dean Nation) was the first Dean centric blog.

    •  thanks man :) (none / 0)

      we are still alive over there - we are focusing more on "Purple state" politics rather than blue, and Kos's recent post about how DK is a Democratic partisan site was useful to me in distinguishing ourselves further.

      What I want to do at Dean Nation is move away from gotcha-politics, often focused as much on the politics of personal destruction rather than the larger issues. The Armstrong Williams issue is one example - its not about Williams, or Kos, or the Thune guys, or Zephyr - it's about the role that opinion writers play in defining policy. Thats a discussion I'd like to have an am posting to Dean Nation about as soon as I finish this comment.

      I don't plug Dean Nation much, but I'd like to do so now and invite anyone interested in discussing issues in a non-partisan way to come by. We are much smaller than we were, but we still have a voice...

  •  Glenn Reynolds: Hack (4.00 / 14)

    The man is a law professor. He goddamn well knows the difference between a pundit taking cash from the government without disclosure and a blogger - with a day job - getting money for that day job from a political campaign, and DISCLOSING IT.

    As someone who's criticized Kos in the past, let me say: Reynolds is a hack and the WSJ has done its reporters a huge disservice by lowering their standards.

  •  Many are trying to cash in (3.81 / 11)

    on the Dean ride to the heavens -- and down again.  And they are cashing in by trashing Dean people who were in any way related to the Dean campaign.  Trippi during the final election days couldn't have been on more programs saying not so very nice things at times.  And they were only asked on those programs, or asked for their opinion at all, if they were going to be negative comments.  

    The cash only came with the negative comments.  That is how to get noticed.  I am disgusted with Trippi and Zepher for their jumping on to trash dems and give the republicans some talking points.

    I cannot imagine Dean thinking this was a good idea at all.  

    •  I don't think this is accurate (none / 1)

      Zephyr supports Dean for DNC chair.

      She has a personal perspective about "blogger ethics" and she (IMHO) stupidly tried to draw parallels between Kos and Williams to make her point.

      It was a dumb thing for her to do. It muddied the waters about something important. It also cost her (and, no doubt, Markos and Jerome because of the right wing spin) some credibility.

      God bless America. God bless our troops.
      God damn George Bush to the fires of eternal damnation.

      by Bill Rehm on Fri Jan 14, 2005 at 07:13:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The point that (4.00 / 3)

    stuck out at me in this post is the fact that Armstrong Williams took taxpayer money not Bush campaign money.

    In fact most of us have been calling for the Bush campaign to pay the American people back the 250,000 dollars from their own leftover campaign money.

    The Poorest of All Men is not the man without a cent but the man without a dream.

    by EMKennedyLucio on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:17:47 PM PDT

    •  right (none / 0)

      We have to hammer this. He took TAXPAYER MONEY. This is AGAINST THE LAW.

      He can take all the money he wants from private individuals and companies. He can disclose it or not.

      But the federal govt CANNOT pay him money to support them, to print things they want, to say things they want. That's PROPAGANDA, and it's AGAINST THE LAW.

  •  WSJ targeting (4.00 / 9)

    Hey, I'm certainly not in those ranks yet, but my understanding is that all the best people and only the very best people get smeared by the Journal. Kudos on that much, at least.
  •  Heck, (none / 1)

    Even I remember the note about you working for the Dean campaign, and I'm just a fly-by reader.  Sounds remarkably like sour grapes to me.  While you mustn't let it get to you, I do agree it's important to keep the focus where it belongs:  on the bribing of Williams by the government.

    BTW,wherever does the name Zepher Teachout come from, anyway?

    Boy, I Take Charge Here!

    by clio on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:18:00 PM PDT

  •  Bloggers aren't journalists (4.00 / 2)

    Although journalists can only think of bloggers that way. I have no idea what Zephyr's problem is. Here's more.
    •  Bloggers and Journalists (4.00 / 3)

      I find it interesting that journalists are always pointing out that bloggers around journalists.  And then they criticize bloggers for not being journalists.  (Look, you're not in the game.  But why don't you play by our damn rules?)

      The blogger success of getting HB1677 withdrawn in Virginia is resulting in more coverage for bloggers now, and much of it is still coming back to that "bloggers aren't journalists but why don't they act like journalists" theme.

      •  yeah (none / 1)

        It's like the crossfire guy attacking Jon "I mention every night this is fake news and comedy" Stewart.  

        These "journalists" are so bad at what they do they don't even notice when they are talking to someone who isn't and doesn't want to be thought of as a journalist.  

        --

        •  this is a really interesting point (4.00 / 3)

          I could get windy on this but in essence it's all symptom of discourse being replaced with product. People don't trust the media yet lap up every word they hear from them. They don't differentiate between Drudge and the NYT because they ultimately use the same techniques. It's just soap being sold.

          Journos hate blogs for the same reasons Budweiser and Miller want to shut down or co-opt all the microbreweries--that 4% of market share the good stuff captures really rankles them.

          Hence the pecking on Crossfire or Howard Kurtz's foolish defensiveness or a zillion other things in our knowledge culture.

    •  The hell they aren't (none / 0)

      Of course they are journalists.  Much of the stuff I read here is well beyond what traditional journalists produce.

      Markos DISCLOSED that he was working for Dean.  And he took campaign money - not government money.  

      There is a fundemental difference between his case and Armstrong's.  The comparison is absurd.

      •  Blog Mercenaries (2.50 / 4)

        I'm not sure the disclaimer "I do some technical work for Howard Dean" is really equivalent to "I'm being paid three thousand dollars a month to make sure Dean looks good on the blogosphere." Maybe that's a different argument.

        The main discrepency I find here is that Markos had a rather venemous post (but aren't they all) the other day saying that we should "assume all republicans are on the Bush payroll until informed otherwise", or something to that effect.

        I've read the "disclaimer" and it would be interesting to see the thread under it, in hindsight.

        I give Markos credit for claiming that he's not necessarily objective, at the same time, I'm not sure how anyone can take his accusations of others being biased or on someone's payroll seriously.

        Furthermore, his disclaimer claims that he "can't help it" because he needs the money. Does this make him a Mercenary?

        •  Markos (3.00 / 3)

          The main discrepency I find here is that Markos had a rather venemous post (but aren't they all)

          No, they're not.

          the other day saying that we should "assume all republicans are on the Bush payroll until informed otherwise", or something to that effect.

          Yes we should assume the conservative commentators are on Bush's payroll. Why else would they spew such idiotic views unless they were paid off?

          I give Markos credit for claiming that he's not necessarily objective, at the same time, I'm not sure how anyone can take his accusations of others being biased or on someone's payroll seriously.

          You don't understand the difference between being paid as a consultant and someone paid to spew propaganda? You don't understand what is wrong about government tax dollars being improperly spent to promote official propaganda? Judging from this post and your other's, you should go back to swimming in the Freeperville scum pond.

          "There is nothing more stimulating than a case where everything goes against you." S.H.

          by Carnacki on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 07:25:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  SO in the midst of all the smoke and heat (4.00 / 2)

      A rational discussion about what kind of standards for disclosure and accountability would be a good thing for all of us will get lost.

      Just as the WSJ is using this as an excuse to deflect attention from the real Armstrong scandal, so Kos and others are using this as an excuse to discredit the "accountibility" idea, by discrediting one of its messengers.

      I thought attacking an idea by destroying the messenger was a GOP tactic?

      Zephyr was wrong, but the nuclear attack here falls under the "protesteth too much" category, and the assault on the idea that anyone who has influence in our society might possibly wish to think about voluntary standards for the benefit of all is anathema - but only when it applies to those anathemizing it.

      For a group of "reformers", I find this kind of behavior shameless, cynical and hypocritical.

      It should be possible to discuss the merits of accountability and full disclosure without all this defensive self-serving fury.

      Drive-by commenting is such fun!

      by galiel on Fri Jan 14, 2005 at 01:00:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I started visiting here a few months ago (none / 1)

    I don't remember if I read it here, or just in the articles that led me here, but I knew you were with Dean.  And I didn't come to this blog expecting to see commentary from Bill O'Reilly.

    I think Kos is in the middle of the storm because the MSM see what happens when ordinary citizens do their work for them.  And they're not too pleased about it.

    If you can't support the veterans you have, don't make any new ones.

    by slackjawedlackey on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:19:17 PM PDT

  •  don't you just love to see (4.00 / 7)

    the left and their on-cue circular firing squad? let's keep our eyes on the real enemies and fight to save Social Security at the hands of the Bushies instead of wasting energy debating the merits and ethics of sundry bloggers. i'm sure the WSJ does this just precisely so bloggers will rant and rail at each more instead of at Bush and the right wing.
  •  well (none / 1)

    i described this as kicking up a shitstorm earlier today, but that really wasnt accurate until now.

    one of the best things about blogging is that it leaves a record.  and from what everyone has written it does not appear that any wrong was done.  the harm is to our community, not so much giving the winger bloggers fodder, but the fracturing of our blogger community (dkos being a part of that community).

    i do not believe that this will have much of an effect on the outcome of the the Williams issue.  it has already gone much further than the blogosphere, the Dept of Ed is investigating, Congresscritters are speaking up and the FCC will have to do their own digging.  speaking of which, go write an email to the FCC lodging an official complaint fccinfo@fcc.gov.  at least something productive will be done tonight.

    kos, if i could rate your diary based on our community standards i would give it a 2.  i understand you are upset, as well you should be.  but this argument is lowered even more by your name calling.  this argument, or the substance of her post can go to hell, but i seriously doubt you wish she burn in eternity.

  •  What I simply cannot WAIT FOR (4.00 / 8)

    are the 15 million diaries over the next two days about EXACTLY THIS.

    "OMG OMG OMG OMG KOS OMG KOS KOS WSJ OMG!!!11!!"

    </sarcasm>


    You looked better on Facebook...

    by Plutonium Page on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:21:51 PM PDT

  •  Her name is really... (4.00 / 10)

    Zephyr Teachout?  Well, you see, the problem is that she is obviously a Bond villain.
    •  I swear, (none / 0)

      At first I thought her name read "Zephyr Treacle."

      Say No to Spineless Democrats!

      by roboton on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:26:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  late night sleepy imagination time. (3.88 / 9)

      High in the moon-based fortress, a forlorn Zephyr Teachout agonizes over silly payments to a failed presidential candidate.  Kos, lashed to a table in the center of the aquarium-ringed room, pleads for help:

      "What should I do?  I made a disclaimer, everybody knew I supported Dean, and it's not like it was the GOVERNMENT's money!  Do you expect me to give the money back, vile Zeph?"

      "Give the money back?  BWAHAHA!", Zephyr cackled, "No, Mr. Zuniga (sic), I expect you..to die."

      (At this point some kick ass ninjas storm the moon fortress and save Kos by kicking and throwing ninja stars and other awesome stuff)

      --Fin

      "'Shit' is the tofu of cursing" --David Sedaris

      by LiberalVirginian on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:29:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Funniest comment I read during the campaign... (none / 1)

      Dick Cheney is one persian cat away from being a Bond villian.

      Still makes me chuckle.

      If you can't support the veterans you have, don't make any new ones.

      by slackjawedlackey on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:34:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Like the wind, baby (none / 1)

    Zephyr blows.
  •  You've come a long way, baby! (4.00 / 20)

    Congrats, Markos!  You've got The Wall Street Journal on your ass!

    Man, I remember when I first found your old joint... you know, back in the days when you were were being paid by Dean and you told everyone all about it on the blog.

    These fucking idiots.  This "news" is like announcing they just discovered that there are no WMD in Iraq.  (We all knew that a long, long time ago, assholes.)

    I'd stick that feather in your cap, Markos.  The fact that these clowns feel the need to go after you signals your arrival to the VERY BIG TIME.

    Hey, I just want to bask in the afterglow...

    •  yes! congrats! (none / 0)

      and officially this means you are equal in rank to Armstrong Williams...!!!!

      sorry.

      •  Nah. (none / 0)

        Easily debunked.

        Not only that, but kos has no control over what The Wall Street Journal writes or what Zephyr Teachout says about him.

        kos can make his case here and in the press and that's it.

        The fact that he is seen as important enough to get attacked by the Journal is a signal that he is a force to be reckoned with.  Comes with the territory.

        And as the old saying goes, there is no such thing as bad publicity*...

        *Most of the time

        •  I respectfully disagree.... (none / 0)

          I think there is such a thing as bad press because it effects what the talking heads will say when they review the Williams case.

          Without actually acknowledging the facts, this could become, on the networks, "well, the left is doing this too.  Look at Kos."

          The actual details of disclosure will be lost on both the talking head asking the question and and the viewers who will never know them.

          It could easily deflate the appropriate anger over what Williams did.

          As we know from Iraq, the media never lets the facts get in the way of a good argument.

           

  •  What This Says To Me (4.00 / 16)

    The smear-machine is in a full court press.  This says to me that there is a lot more to Williamsgate than Williams.  

    This issue should never be addressed without the words, taxpayer money, propaganda, and investigation being pounded in, over and over by our side.  

    Arrogant lips are unsuited to a fool-- how much worse lying lips to a ruler - Proverbs 17:7

    by BarbinMD on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:23:39 PM PDT

    •  My thinking exactly... (none / 1)

      ...so, back to the subject; Who is receiving payola from the White House to push their propoganda?

      The sleep of reason produces monsters.

      by Alumbrados on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:32:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Lots to hide, definitely (none / 0)

      and lots to fear. They are obviously scared to death of Dean, as well as the liberal bloggers with a large readership and growing clout.

      You can hear the Machine humming...

    •  Absolutely, there's more to this story (none / 1)

      Absolutely, this proves there is more to the Williams story than Williams alone. This is just classic, classic "fog" stuff -- and the WSJ story is written as though its some sort of big "expose", as though ONLY NOW are INTREPID WSJ REPORTERS finding out about all this AWFUL STUFF, when all the Kos and MyDD readers knew all about it all along. The deliberate, but pathetic, attempt at "equivalence" here demonstrates there is much more to find out about journalists and, likely, bloggers accepting secret payments from the Bush administration to flog its policies. And Kos, now that Michael Moore has lost his lustre as the republican whipping boy, its your turn. They'll crush you any way they can. It just proves how influential you really are.

      Do not go gentle into that good night. Blog, blog against the dying of the light. CathiefromCanada

      by CathiefromCanada on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 10:36:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think this is going to get really interesting... (none / 1)

      I liken it to the off-hand comment about taping during the Watergate hearings.

      Somebody, somewhere, is going to start looking at contracts. Some peon is going to say something they shouldn't. Some journalist/paper/station who didn't get paid and feels slighted (especially if they supported Bush) is going to start printing/broadcasting stuff that the Bushies would rather not be told.

      And then the snowball will start rolling downhill...

  •  Yo Kos, (2.63 / 11)

    Things are getting kinda tight around here, you are at a point where making these kinds of comments on the front page is going to diminish you in the future. It's not so much something I can say "say this" or "don't say that". It's just a gut reaction I have that is telling me that soon your site will be too important for you to be keying into these "blogosphere pissing matches" in such a personal way.

    I think it is fascinating, but on the other hand you might want to keep some of this shit on the DL.

    I am most likely completely wrong.

    Say No to Spineless Democrats!

    by roboton on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:25:04 PM PDT

    •  um hello (4.00 / 4)

       it is not a blogosphere pissing match when it's in the WSJ. letting the accusations stand is a horrible horrible idea. you counter hard and your counter immediately. I don't see any Wingers posting criticisms out of view, do you? So why should the response be?

      There is a heaven, but ill never get there... i keep respawning...

      by Sandals on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 09:30:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  right. (none / 1)

        i hate the back & forth of it--but if kos didn't defend himself, and with swearin', i wouldn't be interested in sticking around here. his response is spot on: reality-based and pissed off. consequently, i believe him.
      •  It needs to be called on. (none / 0)

        and isn't one of the main rants around here about how John Kerry rolled over and attempted to take the high road by not responding to attacks?  

        Ok, cue the Twisted Sister record..."We're not gonna take it"

        If you can't support the veterans you have, don't make any new ones.

        by slackjawedlackey on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 10:03:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe KOS should have aimed his fire... (none / 0)

        ...at the WSJ and their blatant distortion? Then it wouldn't be a "blogosphere pissing match."
      •  Isn't Glenn Reynolds (none / 0)

        the same as Instapundit? And doesn't Instapundit rank up there in the top 10 rancorous blogs? Isn't WSJ providing a medium for a blogosphere pissing match?

        That's a heck of a lot of Old Media attention and, frankly, Kos deserves big attention (and bigger praise) for doing the right thing at every turn on this one. Couldn't ask for a better example of truth, justice and the American Way

        In this case, the blogosphere just pissed all over old media and the WSJ was the perfect urinal.

        (0+ / 0-), (0+ / 0-), it's off to kos I go...

        by doorguy on Fri Jan 14, 2005 at 02:22:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Completely wrong of course (none / 0)

      It's pretty obvious why.

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Thu Jan 13, 2005 at 10:17:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  legally (none / 0)

        don't you have to counter charges like this to make any claims...  really whether the claims are protected as opinion or not... if for example more accusations were made eventually leading to something bad enough to be actionable, you would want to have a history of public objection.
      •  exactly. (none / 0)

        It was just this general feeling that I had about the whole thing that felt icky.

        Say No to Spineless Democrats!

        by roboton on Fri Jan 14, 2005 at 07:40:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  i agree with roboton in a way (none / 0)

          i think dailykos.com wants to be a place where people can come to discuss political issues and get a broad range of views regarding those issues.  

          it's unfortunate that this Zephyr person wrote this nonsense (i mean, what a shit way to debate ethics or whatever), but still, i hope this thing passes quickly because it sort of does a disservice to what i think most people would agree this site is about.

  •  Babies, Bathwater (3.75 / 4)

    I think Zephyr has a larger point that is a valid concern worth discussion.

    but...

    I also think she's 100% wrong about the particular issues she had to pick with Jerome and Markos, and 100% responsible for a very carelessly written and poorly timed blog piece on this issue.

    I'd hate for the baby (the larger issue) to be thrown out with