Daily Kos

Same-Sex Marriage w/Poll

Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 05:29:27 PM PDT

I've spent some time thinking about what it means to be a Liberal, what it means to be a Democrat. There's a discussion that's gone on here about Gay Marriage and the role of the Democratic Party in ensuring the rights of all Americans.

What follows below the fold is my attempt at a "Point-Counterpoint" on the question of same-sex marriage.

I encourage and welcome everyone with an opinion to weigh in. I think that I know what I believe but I realize that my own naivete may cloud my vision.

So, in no particular order, submitted for your approval below, are some thoughts on same-sex marriage....

"Why should some people get special rights?"

    It's not about "special rights", it's about equal treatment under the law. The government doesn't bestow rights upon us, the rights are ours inherently and can only be limited, with our consent, by the government when it demonstrates a reason to do so. By codifying into law a set of benefits and privileges, as marriage does, that are available to some, but not all, citizens, the government is denying some citizens equal treatment under the law. Perhaps the government can show what reasons it has that justify that unequal treatment but if not, it must stop the discriminatory policies.

"Well, ok, but it's not for activist judges to decide, it's for the people acting through the legislature to decide."

    The genius of our constitution is that it doesn't allow for a tyranny of the majority. While a majority of the people who bother to show up might vote to lock up citizens of Japanese descent during a conflict with Japan, that doesn't make it okay. If the legislative branch enacts a law, and the executive branch enforces it, and yet an affected citizen believes it to be unconstitutional, then that citizen has a right, and some might say an obligation, to challenge it in the judicial branch. It is then up to the state to demonstrate the reasons that warrant its continuation of the offending policy. If it can't, the judiciary must strike down the law. That is what this country was founded on and that is what keeps it strong.

"But banning same-sex marriage isn't discrimination. All men are treated the same when no man can marry another man, no one man has been singled out"

    But that's not how freedom works in America. Suppose that a law bans all white people from marrying any black people; it treats all white people the same. However, the constitution guarantees individual rights, not the rights of classes or groups. So although the law against interracial marriage applies to all white people equally, I, as a white person am still being discriminated against if I cannot marry the INDIVIDUAL of my choice. Even though I'm discriminated against no more or less than any other white person who wants to marry a black person, I am discriminated against nonetheless and that, unless the state can prove otherwise, is unconstitutional.

"Where does it end? Polygamy? Bestiality? Incest?"

    To argue that recognizing the rights of some people necessarily leads to an "anything goes" approach to the law is to employ faulty reasoning. Because we allow gun ownership generally doesn't mean that they're aren't compelling interests that allow the government to limit that freedom in certain cases. You can't walk into the courthouse with a gun. However, just because some seemingly normal person might lose his cool and use his gun to take out half of his coworkers doesn't mean that we get to ban guns altogether either. But I digress......

    Though I suppose it's possible that the equal protection argument for same-sex marriages might apply to polygamy, and perhaps even incest, I think that there is a case that could be made that the state has good reasons to not allow them. Even if there isn't, denying one person their rights by banning same-sex marriage today because you might have to recognize someone else's right to polygamy tomorrow doesn't sound like a very persuading argument to me. If it's polygamy or incest that you're worried about, then find a constitutionally valid way to ban them.

"Marriage is a sacred institution that has always been one man, one woman"

    The government isn't in the business of deciding what is or isn't sacred. That's up to the church, synagogue, mosque or whatever to do. No one is proposing that the government force any church to perform any same-sex weddings, although there are plenty of churches that do so already. This is about civil marriage and the benefits and responsibilities conveyed upon the spouses by the state.
    Besides, is it really so sacred when Britney marries for 54 hours in Las Vegas just "to do something crazy" or when Newt Gingrich marries younger wife number 3 or when two 18 year olds tie the knot because she's pregnant and her father will kill him is he doesn't make her an "honest woman"?
    Moreover, marriage hasn't always been one-man, one woman. There have been, and still are, plenty of polygamist societies in the world, some right here in America, some even told of in the Bible. There have also been many societies on earth that have recognized same-sex couples in various ways throughout the ages, even including, if the scholarship on the subject is to believed, same-sex ceremonies performed in the middle ages by the Catholic church.

"Marriage is for procreating and only heterosexuals couples can do that."

    There is no fertility test for a marriage license. Post menopausal women can marry. People paralyzed from the waist down can marry. No one is claiming that a childless couple, whether by choice or circumstance, is any less married than one with children.

"Yeah, but what about providing the best environment for raising children?"

    Suppose that a woman marries just out of high school. Now, bear with me...a few years later, after two kids and a bad marriage and divorce, she accepts herself as a lesbian and her ex-husband is jailed for life on his third marijuana possession conviction. Still later after six years with a committed same-sex partner who has helped to raise the still underage kids the lesbian is hit and killed by a bus while walking home from a Lavender Menace meeting. The dyke partner, who under the law couldn't adopt even though the pothead ex-husband was okay with it, hasn't any legal rights as to what happens next to those kids. The dead lesbian didn't leave any living relatives and the kids are split up and sent to different foster homes and they never see each other or the partner they call "mom 2" again. How's that for family values? (Of course, this is fictitious, but I bet I could find real world stories that are much more harrowing if I were to try.)
    More to the point, there's no law that says after a man fathers a child that the mother of that child can force the father to help raise it. She can force his financial contribution, but that's about it. If better and more stable home environments for child rearing are desirable, and I think that they are, then let's find ways to encourage them. Discriminating against same-sex couples isn't one those ways.

"But if marriage can mean anything, then it means nothing"

    When more people choose to marry, how is marriage weakened? When couples are allowed to raise their children in households that are recognized by society as legitimate, don't those children grow up to value marriage? When parents, siblings, friends, neighbors and coworkers get to see first hand the loving commitment of two people to each other, doesn't that reaffirm their belief in marriage as a worthwhile institution? When two people make a publicly sanctioned commitment to each other aren't they more likely to work to make that commitment, that marriage, last?
    Furthermore, as much as some would seem to like to believe otherwise, most people are heterosexual today not because they've been secretly in the closet waiting for society to legitimize homosexuality and let them "out", but because they are heterosexual by nature. If 2 or 3% of the population enters into same-sex marriages, the wandering eyes of husbands across America will still be looking at the pages of the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue and not the pages of the Advocate. Traditional marriage remains safe.

"Well, ok, but so many people think that the GOP is right about this issue, shouldn't those of us on the left just soften our stance a little bit and try to get along to win some elections?"

        In a word, no. If liberals, progressives, Democrats, libertarians and others cannot stand up for the basic civil rights of every American, then what in the world can they stand up for?
        The struggle for GLBT rights is the last great struggle for equal treatment under the law. Only when the so-called "gay agenda" is fully embraced and enacted can we all truly be free.

That's what I think anyway.

Poll

What do you think?

1%2 votes
1%2 votes
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6%9 votes
36%48 votes
14%19 votes
31%41 votes

| 130 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 52 comments

  •  a (radical) liberal view of the matter (4.00 / 3)

    One thing I've found interesting is that these views, to me, seem almost quaintly conservative.  Everyone on all sides seems to have this idealized old-fashioned notion of marriage, and the only argument is over whether same-sex marriage should be permitted, while just about everything else is agreed on.

    As a fairly radical social liberal, I tend to wonder: Why not polygamy?  There's a polyamory community that is fairly vibrant—it's not as politically powerful as the gay community, but the gay community wasn't politically powerful 50 years ago either.  Or, to take it a step further, why marriage at all?  If people want to live together with a "life partner", let them, but why should the government care about it?  If someone else wants to live with different people for several years at a time, or wants to live with a platonic partner and have other sexual partners they don't live with, why not let them do that too?  Why should the law care?

    So while I agree that allowing same-sex marriage is preferable to not allowing it, I can't help but think that the argument is over whether to have a bad system or a worse system, with essentially nobody taking the liberal view that government-sactioned marriage makes no sense.

    "See a world of tanks, ruled by a world of banks." —Sol Invictus

    by Delirium on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 05:17:10 PM PDT

    •  Actually (4.00 / 3)

      I think marriage does need to be re-evaluated.  For instance, there are certain social benefits that we privatize through marriage (think health benefits).  In these circumstances, we need to de-link benefits from marital status.  I think we need to take a new look at which benefits we apply to marriage and see if they really make sense (some of the property sharing and distribution does make sense).  In some places domestic violence statutes apply only to marriage--that makes no sense.  

      My own preference is to make multiple arrangements available.  For instance, marriage is still undoubtedly related to sex.  In Massachusetts, we still have an adultery law punishable by up to 3 years in prison, 2 years in jail, or $500.   However, I can see the need for property sharing relationships among non-marital relationships.  I can see marriage-like property relationships for the two old spinster aunts who live together, even if we don't make it marriage.

      So, while I've been an advocate of SSM on these boards, my approach is more complex.  I do believe we should have equal access to absolutely everything heterosexual people have.  I also believe, though, that we need to re-evaluate the way we do things.

      I am a revolting homosexual!

      by MAJeff on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 05:26:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  polygamy (4.00 / 2)

      I think that there is evidence that polygamy as historically practiced is about the power of a dominant male over submissive females; more along the lines of the traditional conservative religious model of marriage with the man being the unquestioned head of the family and all the wives and children answering to and subservient to him.

      I think that there are real concerns about coercion and manipulation, just as there are in incest and in large age discrepancies when one of the parties is very young (i.e. a 16 year old marrying a 25 year old). While there maybe individual cases that don't fall into these traps, I think that it can successfully argued that the community at large has an interest in ensuring that folks aren't objectified or taken advantage of.

      I agree with your broader point about "why marriage at all?" Most of the argument turns on the social acceptance of relationships and as it stands that acceptance is contingent upon the governments recognition and bestowing of (mostly tax) benefits on married couples. And while certainly children are better off raised in stable loving households, that doesn't mean that civil marriage is a prerequisite for those stable relationships.

      Be that as it may, marriage and the benefits attached thereto are a fact of life in our society. While we may wish for a day when we can loose the bounds of matrimony altogether, I see no reason to not now attempt to make the institution more egalitarian and welcoming to all adult citizens.

      There is nothing natural about the abomination of modern factory farming and its attempt to reduce living, feeling beings to machines. -Stephen Walsh, Ph.D.

      by timerigger on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 05:51:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Incest-Male Dominance in Polygamy? (none / 1)

      Most opposite-sex couple marriages we hear about in the news are bad ones, and so are most polygamous marriages--they've made news because there is a major problem, whether it be abuse, violence or incest.  Also, with polygamy, there is the unsupervised and denied nature of Mormon polygamy, which has its own unique problems.  But everything I have read on the subject suggests that polygamous marriages mostly have problems typical of couple marriages:  financial, interpersonal, and sexual difficulties.  

      Outside of Mormon polygamy (yes, I know, Mormonism as long officially banned polygamy, but has not stopped it), such marriages are not usually male-dominated, and there are quite a few male-majority marriages where the female plays the larger role.  Incest problems may or may not be more common that in couple marriages (there is no data), but I do know that anti-gay activists have for decades tried to convince everyone that gays will seduce and abuse our children.

      ...that may not be God talking to you, George

      by daxie on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 09:49:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Marriage (4.00 / 3)

    I don't have a problem with gays marrying.  I actually don't even care about polygamy.  Although interpreting and applying laws regarding distribution of estates and divorce would require some creativity.  However, I would like to limit marriage to same species, i.e., no animales, fish or flowl.  There is a good reason to prohibit incest.  However, in Utah, first cousins may marry afterthey are 65 years old.

    I do not know what weapons World War III will be fought with. World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -- Albert Einstein

    by elveta on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 05:18:42 PM PDT

    •  First cousins (4.00 / 2)

      can marry in several locations.  I believe Minnesota changed their law to allow for first cousin marriage a couple years ago.

      I am a revolting homosexual!

      by MAJeff on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 05:20:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  doesn't make a whole lot of sense not to (none / 0)

        Most recent scientific studies haven't supported the notion that first-cousin marriages are particularly dangerous.  There are a lot of other legal marriages that are a lot more dangerous, such as small and largely genetically homogenous ethnic communities marrying amongst themselves, so unless we're going to ban all those...

        "See a world of tanks, ruled by a world of banks." —Sol Invictus

        by Delirium on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 05:26:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  In Colorado (none / 0)

      first cousins can married; but adoptive siblings can not (and I'm not sure about step-siblings).

      The time for action is past. Now is the time for senseless bickering -- My T-Shirt

      by Frankenoid on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 06:39:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm a radical liberal too... (3.66 / 3)

    For me the fight for civil marriage rights is about equality of the law.
  •  One suggestion... (none / 0)

    Don't use the Japanese internment example, as the Supreme Court upheld the right of the government to intern citizens solely on the basis of their ethnicity in that case.  Perhaps school desegregation or interracial marriage would be better examples.
  •  Okay, Who Voted (4.00 / 2)

    Against Dating and Flaunting?

    Sick of candidate diaries? Kasama!
    "Tell no lies. Claim no easy victories" -- Amilcar Cabral

    by Christopher Day on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 05:42:47 PM PDT

    •  Don't (3.50 / 2)

      make the mistake of thinking everyone at dKos is one of our friends.  There are a number of people on this site who would choose, and believe, the first couple choices on the list.

      I am a revolting homosexual!

      by MAJeff on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 05:46:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  flaunting (none / 1)

      I didn't vote for that option, but on occasion some things the "gay community" does bother me.  For example, gay-pride parades with giant penis floats.  It just seems a little bit odd, and not because they're gay.  I mean, if a bunch of proud heterosexual men had a parade with a giant clitoris float, I'd think it was somewhat odd as well.

      But there's a larger issue of identity.  Since I'm not attracted particularly to people of the same sex, it's hard to say what I would do if I was, but I'd like to think it wouldn't be the biggest part of my identity.  I'd be a person who had a lot of attributes, one of which was being attracted to people of the same sex: "A man who happens to be gay" rather than "a gay man".  But this is a larger issue than the gay community: I also consider myself "a person who happens to be Greek" rather than "a Greek person".

      "See a world of tanks, ruled by a world of banks." —Sol Invictus

      by Delirium on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 05:51:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  In the 70's (none / 0)

        The Rolling Stones toured with a giant inflatible penis in a performance called "Starfucker".

        One of the problems with the "in your face" display of homosexuality is that straights don't realize the "in your face" nature of EVERYTHING in the popular culture.

        There is nothing natural about the abomination of modern factory farming and its attempt to reduce living, feeling beings to machines. -Stephen Walsh, Ph.D.

        by timerigger on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 05:55:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  the conservatives don't like that either (none / 0)

          On this issue I think they're probably consistent: Ralph Reed doesn't strike me as a big Rolling Stones fan.

          But it is a good point, that this is a wider phenomenon.

          "See a world of tanks, ruled by a world of banks." —Sol Invictus

          by Delirium on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 05:57:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Lyrics (none / 0)

          Perhaps I shouldn't, but here are the lyrics to "Starfucker", a decidedly hetero descent into excess....
          Baby, baby, I've been so sad since you've been gone
          Way back to New York City
          Where you do belong
          Honey, I missed your two-tone kisses
          Legs wrapped around me tight
          If I ever get back to Fun City, girl
          I'm gonna make you scream all night

          Honey, honey, call me on the telephone
          I know you're movin' out to Hollywood
          With your can of tasty foam
          All those beat up friends of mine
          Got to get you in their books
          And lead guitars and movie stars
          Get their tongues beneath your hood

          Yeah! You're a star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star
          Yeah, a star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star
          A star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star fucker star

          Yeah, I heard about you Polaroid's
          Now that's what I call obscene
          Your tricks with fruit was kind a cute
          I bet you keep your pussy clean
          Honey, I miss your two tone kisses
          Legs wrapped around me tight
          If I ever get back to New York, girl
          Gonna make you scream all night

          Yeah! You're a star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star
          Yeah, a star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star
          A star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star fucker star

          Yeah, Ali McGraw got mad with you
          For givin' head to Steve McQueen
          Yeah, and me we made a pretty pair
          Fallin' through the Silver Screen
          Honey, I'm open to anything
          I don't know where to draw the line
          Yeah, I'll make bets that you're gonna get
          John Wayne before he dies

          Yeah! You're a star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star
          Yeah, a star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star
          A star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star fucker star
          Yes you are
          A star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star fucker star

          There is nothing natural about the abomination of modern factory farming and its attempt to reduce living, feeling beings to machines. -Stephen Walsh, Ph.D.

          by timerigger on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 07:41:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  On occasion (4.00 / 4)

        the STRAIGHT community does things that bother me. Like participate in or watch shows like "Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire?" or try to rewrite the constitution. Talk about flaunting your sexuality. It make a giant penis float seem positively tame, doncha think? I mean its not like the penis float is  being broadcast live a la the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade.

        Look I'm not gonna defend the tastefulness of giant penis floats, but we live in a PT Barnum culture and  queer folks have no monopoly on loud obnoxious behavior.

        And its not like all the gay people get together and approve the giant penis float -- its the work of individuals or at least a reasonably small group of individuals. And frankly its kind of funny in a South Park sort of way.

        Sick of candidate diaries? Kasama!
        "Tell no lies. Claim no easy victories" -- Amilcar Cabral

        by Christopher Day on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 05:59:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  identity (none / 1)

        Actually I think you'd find a lot of heterosexuals (particularly men, of course) who define themselves first and foremost as "straights",  not just "a man who happens to be straight".  

        Although this seems sad and shallow, there are a lot of people who have a hard time finding anything in particular to hang their identity on.   And I think some of the more outragious gay--culture stuff can be seen as a reaction to societal dissaproval.

        •  definitely, I had overlooked that (none / 1)

          People who are attacked tend to band together, so that certainly is a part of it.  I imagine as being gay steadily becomes more accepted in society, "queer identity" and the "gay community" will become less cohesive and just consist of a whole lot of very different people who happen to be gay.

          "See a world of tanks, ruled by a world of banks." —Sol Invictus

          by Delirium on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 06:05:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I LOVE the freaks and weirdos (none / 0)

        in Gay Pride.  I love the leather floats and the porn stars.  Sex has traditionally been a large part of gay identity.  I'm not saying it's everything, but previous generations of queer intellectuals (now we're too into becoming "normal") have developed very rich and complex theories of sexuality, pleasure, and power.  I like a public culture where sex isn't degraded.  I like a public culture where sexual expression is something to be celebrated.  I love the joy involved in it.  I disapprove of the move among gay people to cleanse our communities and our public face of sex, sexuality, and misfits. I disapprove of trying to "outnormal the normal" people.

        I am a revolting homosexual!

        by MAJeff on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 07:16:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Drag shows (none / 0)

          Most of the straight folks that I know, after they've been to their first drag show, feel liberated. Go figure.

          There is nothing natural about the abomination of modern factory farming and its attempt to reduce living, feeling beings to machines. -Stephen Walsh, Ph.D.

          by timerigger on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 07:35:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Marriage Language (4.00 / 3)

    No one is proposing that the government force any church to perform any same-sex weddings, although there are plenty of churches that do so already. This is about civil marriage and the benefits and responsibilities conveyed upon the spouses by the state.

    Ah, but see, the Republicans are taking advantage of this with another set of code-words. They've educated their base to think that "same-sex marriage" means that Democrats want to legislate to force their churches to perform and recognize same-sex marriages. As to them, a marriage isn't something legal, but something of the church.

    I think we need to push for getting the government out of the marriage business. Make it so the only arrangement with legal effect is a government-issued civil union or other, similar, contract. Let people call the union what they like.

    •  I'm all for it (4.00 / 3)

      So long as the Tax laws and inheritance laws and medical visitation laws and adoption laws and the laws regarding spousal testimony reflect that change.

      The lie about civil unions is that they don't address the crux of the problem when it comes to the federal governments legitimization of relationships.

      There is nothing natural about the abomination of modern factory farming and its attempt to reduce living, feeling beings to machines. -Stephen Walsh, Ph.D.

      by timerigger on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 05:58:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Regarding Marriage Language (none / 0)

      That is precisely what the right wing activists believe. On Focus on the Family's website they talk about how the ACLU will threaten the tax exempt status of churches and force them to perform same-sex marriages if those marriages are made legally vaild.

      They barely understand marriage and they definitely don't understand the ACLU.

      •  Boogeymen (none / 0)

        It's all about the boogeymen. These churches support the Republicans largely because the Republicans have been so effective at exploiting their persecution complex. The ACLU, because of it's regular fights to defend the first amendment, makes a particularly good boogeyman. Especially since it's name sounds (to these people) big and threatening and liberal.

  •  Good post (none / 0)

    with good arguments.    Recommended.

    I think that America, adolescent nation that we are, will eventually tend in the same direction as most European nations.  Gay marriage isn't much of an issue in most of Europe because not that many people of any sexual allignment get married any more.   (And they do have civil-union rights).

    Though I'm happily married, I optimistically view marriage as a future anacronism.   Likewise organized religion as a political force.

    •  Europe (none / 0)

      I think it's a common misperception that Europe is far ahead on this.  European society is very economically liberal, but socially it's mixed.  If you look at the continent as a whole, it's slightly ahead of the US, but not by a lot: a slightly larger proportion allows outright gay marriage (2 countries in Europe vs. just Massachusetts in the US), and they're quite a bit ahead on civil unions, but still mostly don't allow them (about 25% of the EU, versus just 4% of US states).

      Running down the list of EU members,

      Gay marriage legal:

      • The Netherlands (civil unions since 1998, marriage since 2001)
      • Belgium (since 2003)

      Civil unions legal (note that many of these do not permit adoption):
      • Denmark (since 1989)
      • Sweden (since 1994)
      • France (since 2000)
      • Germany (since 2001)
      • Portugal (since 2001)1
      • The United Kingdom (to come into force in 2005)

      1 Portugal does not permit civil unions per se, but since 2001, same-sex couples who have been living together for more than two years are automatically considered to be in a common-law partnership.

      No recognition:

      • Czech Republic
      • Estonia
      • Greece
      • Hungary
      • Ireland
      • Italy
      • Latvia
      • Lithuania
      • Luxembourg
      • Poland
      • Slovakia
      • Slovenia
      • Spain

      "See a world of tanks, ruled by a world of banks." —Sol Invictus

      by Delirium on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 07:01:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Perhaps the larger question... (none / 0)

    ...is "What as Democrats are we to do?"

    There were two diaries today about embracing the "gay agenda" and perhaps getting more radical than the establishment Democratic Party wants to. Should we?

    Should we insist on a candidates that forward the cause of GLBT equality, or should we bide our time and let the GLBT community wait its turn?

    There is nothing natural about the abomination of modern factory farming and its attempt to reduce living, feeling beings to machines. -Stephen Walsh, Ph.D.

    by timerigger on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 06:12:11 PM PDT

    •  I wrote one of those diaries (4.00 / 3)

      I don't know if I was saying anything as radical as you're attributing to me.  It's a complex issue.  What I was saying was that Democrats haven't really earned the "protectors of gay rights" mantle they like to proclaim for themselves.  The party was notably absent in defending gay people this fall.  When same-sex marriage issues came up, we could rely on very few people to actually support our rights.  Instead, we're consistently told that we need to accept and accomodate those who are opposed to our full inclusion in American society.

      Log Cabinites and gay Republicans will often look at the Democrats in D.C., the way that a Democratic Congress and President gave us Don't Ask, Don't Tell, the way Democrats overwhelmingly supported DOMA, the way Democrats failed to even get ENDA through a Democratic Senate...well, we haven't gotten a lot from the national Democratic Party.  They're right.  The Democratic Party is a far better home, but at the federal level we've gotten almost nothing from the party.  And we can't even get people to rhetorically support our full inclusion in the American family because we have to appeal to those who oppose that inclusion.

      Yes, that's a criticism of the party.  But, it's about more than pushing a more "radical" approach.  It's about being honest.  It's about putting the lie to those who would say Democrats have pushed to hard on gay rights, when Democrats, at least at the Federal level, have done very little for gay rights.

      I am a revolting homosexual!

      by MAJeff on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 06:24:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree completely (none / 1)

        Shortly after the election I wrote a diary that talked about the very issue you speak off. In 1992 Bill Clinton promised to include "them the gays" and then caved on gays in the military. He caved again on DOMA.

        The Democratic Party gets to claim the gay rights mantle without doing anywhere near enough to further the cause in the same way that the GOP exploits those folks who are earnestly (although mistakenly) anti-abortion. It's easy to talk about things that you know you'll never really champion.

        But where are we to go? We stay here, we stand and fight.

        There is nothing natural about the abomination of modern factory farming and its attempt to reduce living, feeling beings to machines. -Stephen Walsh, Ph.D.

        by timerigger on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 06:34:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  DOMA in particular was damaging (none / 0)

          DOMA was damaging, less in the long run for the law it made (which can always be overturned) than for the perception it creates.  Now the Republicans can talk about how their position is "bipartisan" and "centrist" rather than "conservative", by pointing out that "even Bill Clinton" sees things their way.  IIRC, Bush actually said something like that in one of the debates.  So now Democrats who oppose it can easily be painted as "more liberal than Bill Clinton", which is problematic.

          "See a world of tanks, ruled by a world of banks." —Sol Invictus

          by Delirium on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 07:06:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  which is why (none / 0)

            Gonzales needs to be opposed by every Democrat. If he is confirmed as AG, it should be without a SINGLE Democrat voting for him. Otherwise, the Republicans get to claim that "bipartisan" consensus exonerated the torture policies of Bushco.

            I know that this isn't on topic vis-a-vis the broader discussion here, but it's part and parcel of the larger problem.

            Democrats must stand for something. I would rather lose on the side of righteousness than acquiesce to mendacity and moral corruption.

            There is nothing natural about the abomination of modern factory farming and its attempt to reduce living, feeling beings to machines. -Stephen Walsh, Ph.D.

            by timerigger on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 07:14:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I wrote the other diary... (none / 1)

      [Mine was DNC petition to Bush: lay off gays, MAJeff's was Democrats discussing gay issues]

      perhaps getting more radical than the establishment Democratic Party wants to

      I don't think my position was for Democrats to get more radical at all. The DNC's own web site lists the following as part of its "GLBT platform":

      The Democratic Party has not wavered in its commitment to securing workplace equality for all gay and lesbian Americans, comprehensive hate crimes laws, and full funding for HIV/AIDS. Our focus continues to be on basic equality for all American families.
      • "We support the full inclusion of gay and lesbian families in the life of the nation. This would include an equitable alignment of benefits."
      • "[Hate crimes] should be punished with extra force. Protections should include hate violence based on gender, disability, or sexual orientation."
      • "All patriotic Americans should be allowed to serve their country."

    The problem here is that no elected Dems of any stature talked about this at all during the election campaign to counter the Right. The only talking heads that discussed gay issues were representatives of gay rights organizations and the Right wing regulars. That's red meat for the Right. They could rightly argue that silence from elected Dems = ashamed of being affiliated with the gay issue.

    What is the point of those platform words on a party web page when Dems couldn't even talk about them? It's BS. The fact that strong language supporting gay rights exists in the platform but "Public Dems" have remained silent about it makes one draw the conclusion that gays can be paid lip service in platform language and on on a lame-ass petition, and that's should be satisfactory. Just be patient; hearts and minds will be won over time is the message. Meanwhile, state after state will Super-DOMA themselves because there is no one from the Dem establishment countering the Right's framing of the issue.

    Dems certainly don't mind dialing for gay dollars when elections roll around. How long are we expected to be doormats with no elected officials willing to be voices defending us in the party we support?

    Pam's House Blend

  •  I have an amazing partner... (none / 0)

    ...and we are just as married as Laura and the chimp.  We just aren't married in the LEGAL sense.  They cannot take THAT Away.

    What they do take is this:
    I have insurance on both my HUSBAND and myself through my company.  I pay $10 (pre tax) a month for me and $90 (post tax) per month for him.  If we were LEGALLY married, the $90 I pay on his behalf would be taken out of my pay before taxes.

    In addition, my company pays over $300 a month for his benefits.  They ADD that amount to my TAXABLE INCOME.  If we were LEGALLY married, the extra deduction would not be taken out of my check.

    Basically, gay men, lesbians and straight couples who live together but aren't LEGALLY married get screwed.

    This is how our government encourages legal marriage.

    Fair?  Not in my opinion.

    -8.88; -8.62 Republicans for Voldemort

    by kaus on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 06:22:05 PM PDT

  •  Sexual behavior (none / 0)

    should not be regulated by government among consenting adult humans.
    This would take care of rape, incest, bestiality and necrophilia. Polygamy should be a church matter, as should gay marriage--in the religious sense.

    "Nothing more completely baffles one who is full of trick and duplicity than straightforward and simple integrity."--C.C. Colton

    by rcvanoz on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 06:26:14 PM PDT

  •  I can't say this too loudly for fear of losing (none / 1)

    my gay card, but, I'm gay, and have no idea how to dress well!!

    One aspect of "allowing gays to marry" argument gets lost in the "religious vrs legal" issue.  Many Churches don't want to have marriage ceremonies for gay couples.  Find.  No problem.  They don't have to do that.  The basic issue of gay marriage are the legal protections that come along the government issued license - rights to property, inheritance, taking care of each other, hospital visitation, etc.

    Another aspect to this issue is that I've never heard a single reason WHY gay marriage is a threat to heterosexual marriage.  I'm counting on this issue to kill the proposed anti gay marriage constitutional amendment in Massachusetts.  By the time it comes up for a vote, gay marriage will have been legal in Massachusetts for several years and it will be more difficult to prove the "harm" done.  

    When discussing this issue, it is interesting that  a lot of the anti gay marriage conversation comes from parts of the country with the highest divorce rates.

    The key to this entire issue is to get away from heated rhetoric and emphasize facts.  Of course, the rethugs hate to deal with facts - it kills most of their arguments.  But, I think our main goal should be to keep this discussion issue based rather than based on emotion.

  •  If gays want to marry, (4.00 / 3)

    then by all means, go ahead. I just have one thing to say: "DON'T DO IT! MARRIAGE IS A PRISON, A HELL, AN INESCAPABLE VORTEX OF TORTURE AND WASTED TIME."

    My wife agrees.

    P.S. -- there is a movement out there among some wingnuts to demonize "deliberate childlessness", and as we all know (or should know) the wingnuts hate anyone who has sex for pleasure...they'd make that a capital crime in a hurry if they could, but they'll probably settle for criminalizing birth control pills.

    --------
    Please don't bite the heads off the chocolate Elvises.

    by PBJ Diddy on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 06:47:35 PM PDT

  •  The polygamy/incest/bestiality arguments (none / 1)

    would be funny if they didn't make it clear how those people really do think about gays-- after all, as far as I know (and I'm basically fine with my current knowledge, thanks) straight couples can do pretty much anything gay or lesbian couples can, although they're of course limited on who can do what to whom <g>.  

    In any case, I'll go along with the notion that there are some long-term public-health reasons for incest to remain taboo, although theoretically genetic testing could mitgate that problem.  The only real problem with polygamy, as far as public concern goes, is the fact that interpreting such legal contracts involving multiple parties would be disastrous for the courts.  But both polygamy & incest have, and always have had, the taint of coercion-- I just don't see them being good policy because there seems to be so little chance of genuinely free choice for all parties.

    Bestiality is the stupidest strawman argument ever, since non-humans can't enter into contracts.  It's not even deserving of a response.

    "Conservative principles" are marketing props used by the Conservative Movement to achieve political power, not actual beliefs. -Glenn Greenwald

    by latts on Sat Jan 15, 2005 at 07:08:27 PM PDT

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