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Reported in the Richmond Times-Dispatch, (today's edition) on a radio call-in show yesterday (WRVA 1140AM), Jerry Kilgore offered up an opinion that would not surprise his supporters; but, of course that does not include any sane, reasonable people.

Jerry W. Kilgore said yesterday that he favors changing the law to allow Virginians with concealed-weapons permits to carry their firearms into restaurants and bars.
(emphasis mine)

Yeah, Jerry, that's what we need, MORE guns around drunk people.  Does he think for one moment that the potential for abuse of this law outweighs any benefit he might dream up?

Nope.

He is so clearly out of touch with even his own supporters he doesn't realize that they might not appreciate someone with a concealed weapon over at Applebee's while the family dines out on Friday night.  In fact, he is so clueless he thinks he is winning this election.  He is campaigning now in Spotsylvania and Stafford counties, where there is slightly more than lukewarm support for his candidacy.

There are guns everywhere, but let's keep them out of bars and restaurant, eh Jerry W.?

My incredulity knows no bounds.

Originally posted to Dems2004 on Wed Nov 02, 2005 at 12:15 PM PST.

Poll

Jerry Kilgore is:

14%7 votes
22%11 votes
10%5 votes
16%8 votes
38%19 votes

| 50 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  I, for one (none)
    will be really glad to see Jerry go to wherever he's going after his defeat.  They don't even like him in the home area of his state.

    Mark

  •  You forgot (none)
    all of the above.

    You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is "Never get involved in a land war in Asia".

    by yellowdog on Wed Nov 02, 2005 at 12:17:50 PM PST

  •  Why shoudn't (none)
    people who have been vetted and clean from carrying anywhere the public is allowed to go?

    I know a few people with the license to carry concealed and they are deathly afraid of committing a crime as they would loose many of there benifits and possibly even parts of their collections of firearms.  They are honest and hard working individuals who are not dumb.

    •  The same reason perfect drivers need (none)
      insurance: other people.

      Who is to say that a drunk guy trying to pick a fight with you won't notice your gun and go for it?

      Barring that, alcohol affects peoples' thought processes.  I'm not saying your friends would become homicidal maniacs if allowed to carry a gun into a bar and get drunk, but I'm sure there are some people for whom that would be a hard line to stay on the right side of.

      Jumping on the politicalcompass.org bandwagon: (-3.63, -3.03) - Does that make me part of the right wing here?

      by someone else on Wed Nov 02, 2005 at 12:22:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Strange... (none)
        I've been to the scary kinds of bars where there are more bikers than anything else. Most of them carried guns of one variety or another. But most times a fight broke out...they used their fists, pool cues, cue balls...anything but the gun in their jacket.

        I asked "Why?" once. And was told that assault with intent to break noses was easier time than any of the degrees of murder.

        Not saying that covers all situations. But right now there are a whole lot of people wandering around bars with knives that never have a permit attached. And it's a hell of a lot easier to stab a person in a bar...and get away with it...than it is to step back and shoot someone.

        Just a thought or two.

        "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

        by kredwyn on Wed Nov 02, 2005 at 12:31:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  As a gun owner (none)
        I would tend not to go to the type of bars where I might need a gun out of normal course of just being there.  However, as was demonstrated on one of my compatriots at work in Chicago, going into a McDonalds at 3pm got him a pistol to the temple while in the bathroom. So go figure where you are or are not safe, or are protected by others.

        I find most people who are against pistols have none or very little experience with them.  As a second generation Marine I've been around pistols and rifles all my life.  With a Grandfather, uncle and in-laws in the Highway Patrol, police depts, and sheriff offices they will point out it's not the mere presence of the gun, it is the presence of mind of the one with it.  Falling on the old cliche, enforce the laws.

        In Virginia you are allowed open carry, even in restaraunts (not sure on bars but will look) unless the owner has a sign barring them at entry.  Several malls allow them also, though most don't.  

        Just a couple of months ago a disturbed woman knifed 3 or 4 shoppers in a mall and was not able to be subdued until armed police arrived.  Might have been nice to have a citizen who could have saved some one from unnecessary pain and suffering

    •  Let them (2.50)
      leave their clean and vetted Glocks at home where they belong.
    •  The question begs to be asked (none)
      What is the reason for carrying in a place that a person would be afraid of committing a crime in?  Or did I read that wrong?

      ...they are deathly afraid of committing a crime as they would loose many of there benifits and possibly even parts of their collections of firearms.

      In what situations would they have to be afraid of committing a crime?

      Also, although you might have thought I was calling gun-owners, of which I am one, stupid; you are wrong. Jerry Kilgore is stupid.

      The General Assembly and the restaurant/bar associations have all said no to this repeatedly.

      Mark

      •  I believe the point is that (4.00)
        CCW permit holders are more law abiding than the average. Some would say that it's because they don't want to lose their permit. In some cases that may be true; I think in most cases it's more complex than that.

        I say that as someone who has carried for 10 years.

        If I worry about the future, will the future change?--Quai Chang Caine

        by Enjoy Every Sandwich on Wed Nov 02, 2005 at 12:30:34 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  crimes (none)
        Any conviction would probably strip them of their licese and possibly their permits for storage of the firearms.
        •  Yes... (none)
          Laws are already set up to strip folks of their guns when crimes are committed and when there are restraining orders.

          Any criminal carrying a gun into a bar without a permit gets hit two ways...more if a crime is committed while carrying said gun.

          "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

          by kredwyn on Wed Nov 02, 2005 at 12:48:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  What possible reason (none)
      would your friend have for wearing a firearm in a bar? Is your friend so insucure that he feels the need for personal protection?
      Is the bar such a dangerous place that he can only enter safely with a weapon?
      •  It has nothing to do with insecurity (none)
        Why do you always have a spare tire in your car? Are you afraid that your next trip to the grocery store will result in a flat? Of course not. You always carry the spare because you don't know when one of your tires will go flat.

        Likewise with a defensive sidearm. Since the criminal is not going to make an appointment to attack you, to be of any use a defensive weapon must be ready to hand. When you're at a restaurant (or in the parking lot--plenty of folks are assaulted in parking lots) a gun locked in a safe at home will not do you a damn bit of good.

        If I worry about the future, will the future change?--Quai Chang Caine

        by Enjoy Every Sandwich on Wed Nov 02, 2005 at 12:34:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Hmmm... (none)
        possibly.

        As a female, I'd like to not have to walk that parking lot between the bar and my car knowing that my gun is locked safely in the trunk safe where I can't get to it when that strange drunk follows me out at O early 30 in the morning...

        "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

        by kredwyn on Wed Nov 02, 2005 at 12:36:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  You can carry in a restaurant/bar in Virginia. (none)
      Simply move the holster to clear view on the outside of your clothing. Only establishment owners/employees may conceal. Lay your long gun in plain view.

      In my view the weapon of choice in the Virginia suburbs is the automobile.  Weapon of choice for surly short guys and pushy women.

  •  Doesn't VA law... (4.00)
    already say that you can open carry your gun into places like restaurants and coffee shops? I seem to recall that there was some discussion about this last year.

    Warner and Kaine have both worked really hard to change the perception of Democrats wanting to take away guns and gun rights.

    Please tread lightly here...

    "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

    by kredwyn on Wed Nov 02, 2005 at 12:22:29 PM PST

    •  my thoughts exactly .. (none)
      you threaten to take away their guns, and they will shoot you down (at the ballot .. probably elsewhere too).  this isn't an issue we can win on in VA .. unfortunately.
    •  Yes, that's correct (none)
      Open carry is permitted in such places.

      Many people may not know this, but the earlier concealed-carry law (up to 1996) did not prohibit permit holders from carrying in bars and restaurants. So why didn't we have a problem then?

      If I worry about the future, will the future change?--Quai Chang Caine

      by Enjoy Every Sandwich on Wed Nov 02, 2005 at 12:28:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I can't tell you about 1996 (none)
        I was living in California at the time, employed by the federal government.

        Mark
        Cumberland Virginia

        •  My point (none)
          is that if you look at places where this prohibition doesn't exist, you don't see "wild west" shootouts and bloodbaths.

          When the VA CCW law was changed in 1996, the gun control folks predicted a bloodbath. Shootouts over every fender-bender; neighbors shooting neighbors 'cause the one's dog shit in the other's yard; cops getting bushwhacked in 7-11s. I'm just kinda wondering where the bodies are because it doesn't look to me like that came true.

          If I worry about the future, will the future change?--Quai Chang Caine

          by Enjoy Every Sandwich on Wed Nov 02, 2005 at 12:40:12 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  That whole Wild Wild West motif... (none)
            gets a wee bit old at times.

            They wanted to unify Colorado's CCW laws...to cover the state with some sort of uniformity. The spin was Wild Wild West time.

            I lived in Boulder...nothing changed there. There was no mass gun fight in any part of the state. If there had been, I'd have heard about it.

            "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

            by kredwyn on Wed Nov 02, 2005 at 12:45:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  This diary is about (none)
      Jerry Kilgore, not Warner/Kaine.

      It has been illegal for years, and was reported as such in the Times-Dispatch yesterday.

      And I can understand that people don't want to bring up guns, but the ownership and safe use of guns is a lot different than concealed weapons in public bars and restaurants.

      Mark

      •  Maybe in Richmond (none)
        But not in other parts of the state.

        In general, my largest problem with gun legislation is when it leaves the locality and to the state and federal level. Richmond does not have a right to tell Pulaski what to do with their guns and vice versa.

      •  Problem is SPIN... (none)
        and perception.

        This diary could be about Jerry. But note yesterday's diary about the number of visits that this site gets from all over. We're talking millions per day. And not all of them are going to be supportive of your message. Indeed, the odds are good that someone out there is going to read it and spin it so that it goes something like "Look. Those Demorats are over there at kos talking about how Kilgore wants permits okayed for CCW in bars and restaurants. (Illogical leap inserted here) Obviously the Kaine Campaign is being disingenuous and they really do want to take your guns away over in Kommieland."

        Or something to that effect.

        "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

        by kredwyn on Wed Nov 02, 2005 at 12:42:55 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I Understand Your Point (none)
          but the day I will self-censor for the sake of what neanderthal Republicans think, is the day I will stop writing.

          Don't look for any self-censorship here.  I am a volunteer for the Kaine campaign, and I have worked for most of this year on it.

          I think Jerry Kilgore is extreme.  That's what was meant to be portrayed in my diary. He has mostly extreme positions.

          The very fact that we have so many visitors every day is even more reason for people to speak their minds. By the way, I do not make a habit of talking about razor's edge issues concerning the election here, I was just so disgusted that a diary followed.

          It will be gone soon enough around here.

          Mark

          •  We self censor all of the time... (none)
            "Hon? Does this dress make me look (insert concern here)?"

            "No, dear not at all" instead of the comment that could wind you up on the couch for a month.

            Kilgore is extreme. And he's a git.

            I'm not saying you should censor. But I am saying that you need to be aware of your audiences. Some are obvious, but some aren't going to be very evident.

            You've gotten quite a bit of chat here with quite a number of gun owners and 2nd amendment supporters who also happen to be democrats (or independents). That in itself can be very useful when it comes to defanging an issue that it looks like Kilgore is interested in highlighting to spook gun owners.

            There are a number of ways to pull his teeth on the issue. One way is to maybe run/remind Virginians of that interview Warner had about VA Democrats and guns. IIRC it was part of Warner's platform/plan to defang this issue. Remind folks of that. What is Kaine's position? How is it similar to Warner's?

            Revise your piece so that it underscores Kilgore's obvious desperation by bringing up the guns as an issue. Obviously he is running skeerd if he's trying to bring up devisive issues...

            "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

            by kredwyn on Wed Nov 02, 2005 at 01:16:14 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Good point (4.00)
              where you said "...Kilgore's obvious desperation by bringing up the guns as an issue. Obviously he is running skeerd if he's trying to bring up devisive issues..."

              I'm a libertarian (a real one, not a Repub masquerading as one) and Republicans often try to lure me into their camp with the gun issue. It doesn't work on me (#1 they're often lying; they won't actually make a real effort on the issue #2 I'm not a single-issue voter; if their overall platform makes the state supreme over the rights of the individual I won't support them).

              But they keep trying, all the same.

              If I worry about the future, will the future change?--Quai Chang Caine

              by Enjoy Every Sandwich on Wed Nov 02, 2005 at 01:27:54 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  What a great idea! (none)
              for tomorrow'a diary, since we are limited to one a day. Do you live in Virginia?

              I will be looking into the issue more fully than a newspaper article can give me. I owe it to everyone here. Thanks to everyone who made constructive comments and ratings.

              Mark
              Cumberland Virginia

              •  Make sure... (none)
                that when you do your diary, you pay attention to the laws that already exist and the history surrounding the 1996 law shift in VA. You admitted that you are relatively new to VA. But I can tell you that this is a very very old story in Jefferson's state.

                Jefferson even has some quotes out there that might be helpful to your framing of the issue.

                No, I live in MD...not VA. Though I have contemplated moving there.

                "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

                by kredwyn on Wed Nov 02, 2005 at 07:04:04 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  How? (none)
        but the ownership and safe use of guns is a lot different than concealed weapons in public bars and restaurants.

        How is it different?

        I'm not a law breaker. I own a gun. I use it safely. If I want to take it into a bar/restaurant but I'm really not interested in having it belted at my hip, since it clashes with my outfit, why can't I put it in a holster under my sweater?

        Just because I want a permit to carry it into the bar doesn't mean that I'm going to do so. Just because I want a permit to carry it into the bar doesn't mean that I'm going to drink enough alcohol to get drunk. Just because I want a permit to carry it into the bar doesn't mean that I'm ever going to touch it. Just because I want a permit to carry it into the bar doesn't mean that I'm suddenly going to break the law by shooting somebody.

        How is it different?

        "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

        by kredwyn on Wed Nov 02, 2005 at 12:54:37 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I, in general, support gun rights (4.00)
    If you can carry a gun around a town square, why can't you take it in for dinner?

    That being said, Kilgore is so irresponsible when it comes to legislating that he's apt to pass some crazy law just to make a political point that he's no gun-stealing Democrat, so I do not trust him to pass responsible, reasonable legislation...period, if it comes down to it.

    •  The Bars and Restaurants Prohibit It (none)
      As I understand it, Virginia law permits the proprietor of any establishment to prohibit people carrying weapons from coming into their establishment.  Many establishments in Northern Virginia have printed posters stating that people may not enter if they have weapons.
      •  Basically correct (none)
        The concealed carry law allows any property owner or tenant to prohibit carry (IOW you can do the same with your home). You are required to post the policy in plain view.

        If I worry about the future, will the future change?--Quai Chang Caine

        by Enjoy Every Sandwich on Wed Nov 02, 2005 at 01:30:57 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  So Does This Mean (none)
          That Jerry Kilgore wants to redefine the rights of property owners so that customers can carry concealed weapons?  If so, this could open up a range of potential legal liabilities for a bar or restaurant that serves a few too many drinks to a patron who is carrying concealed (or even openly carrying weapons).   I'd get nervous shopping at Tyson's Center if I saw some number of people walking around with guns in holsters.
          •  I wouldn't know (none)
            A reform of the concealed carry law that permits CCW holders to carry in establishments where alcohol is served would not do that. The part of the law that prohibits concealed carry in such establishments and the part that covers property rights are two different sections, so changing one does not automatically mean changing the other. IOW we would have to look at the exact text of any proposed change to the law.

            BTW you're around CCW holders all the time. I carry everywhere I can legally. It's nothing to be scared of.

            If I worry about the future, will the future change?--Quai Chang Caine

            by Enjoy Every Sandwich on Wed Nov 02, 2005 at 01:44:48 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  Don't think guns in a bar are a problem? (none)
    Link


    On the night of May 12, Walsh asked a patron to leave the bar. Witnesses would later tell police that Zachary Ourada, of Minneapolis, was acting intoxicated and had been harassing women.

    Police say Ourada shot Walsh four times in the back, then ran toward the Mississippi River and jumped in.

    When police fished Ourada out of the river and arrested him, he yelled, "I didn't do nothin' wrong, man! I got a permit to carry that bitch!"

    Maybe this guy would have been carrying a pistol anyway but we won't ever know and the jail time he is going to get isn't going to bring the guy he murdered back to life.

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