Daily Kos

Impeachment in Seven Reasons

Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 03:32:51 PM PDT

Kos has said that impeachment talk is silly. With all due respect, it is deadly serious and completely necessary. The constellation of impeachment is rising.
First let me set the terms of debate. No President has ever been removed through conviction in the Senate. Only one has come close, and he almost had to side with the defeated South after a bloody war. No, no one seriously expects Bush to be removed. For the same reason, talk of "President Cheney" is also irrelevant, because Bush isn't going to resign. He won't even listen to people who contradict him on small matters, let alone large ones. Resignation is not in the cards for King George.

Thus "impeachment" means that, "impeachment" and not "conviction and removal". Since removal is not going to happen, the question of what "President Cheney" would do is irrelevant. More over, governorships are not comparable, because governors can be reached through normal mechanisms of law. McGreevey and Rowland resigned, because the alternative included trial by jury.

Second, there will be no formal moves towards impeachement unless and until there is a Democratic majority in the House of Representatives. This means that impeachment, for the next year at least, will be about pressure for impeachment, and not the question of whether to vote on the Senate floor.

Finally, the Cheney question may well be answered before the election. Cheney, unlike Bush, can be indicted and tried as an ordinary criminal. And that is closing in around him because of the Plame investigation, just as Agnew was targetted at the point in time when Nixon began to seem vulnerable, the powers that be are looking in to cancelling Bush's impeachment insurance. That would mean a Vice-President, though selected by Bush, which would have to be voted on by a majority of both houses of Congress. If before the elections, the Republicans would have to put their seal of approval on whoever Bush selects, and thus tie them even more firmly to Bush electorally. [A commenter has noted, correctly, that impeachment could only occur with a Speaker Pelosi and therefore, taking the hypothetical that impeachment opponents use of a removal of Bush and Cheney, it is not Hastert the Unspeakerable who will be President, but the first woman chief executive in American history. Almost impossible, but once we go through the looking glass, we might as well play the game by the rules.]

Here are the reasons for pushing impeachment:

I. Impeachment as a tool of realignment

Impeachment is a tool by which the country calls to account a head strong executive. There have been four Presidents who had impeachment articles referred to the floor: Tyler, Andrew Johnson, Richard Nixon, William Jefferson Clinton. There have been five other Presidents who had impeachment articles filed against them: Cleveland, Hoover, Truman, Reagan, Bush Sr.

Of these 9:

8 times the opposite party won the next Presidential election - only Reagan was the exception.
7 times the party pushing impeachment retained control of Congress - Tyler, which was a Whig civil war, and Truman were the only exceptions.

If "realignment" is ones goal, then the historical record indicates that a serious attempt to impeach is part of the means by which elected members of congress affirm their complete and utter disgust for the executive. Rightly or wrongly, they are putting political symbolism behind the country's anger.

II. Impeachment as a tool to restrain an executive

The other result of impeachment is that almost all other business comes to a stop. Faced with an executive set on acting against Congress - again, rightly or wrongly - Congress has the ability to stop the national debate, and focus it on the question of the chief executive's fitness for office. For those who fear an invasion of Syria, for those who see Bush as being willing to gamble on desperate connivance to maintain his Presidency and power, impeachment is a means by which Congress levels the power of investigation at an executive.

III. Impeachment as a means of removing legitimacy.

Impeachment has another important function, it is the means by which America tells the rest of the world that we reject George Walker Bush and his actions. This is essential for restoring America's credibility with other nations, particularly our allies in Europe. American actions in Iraq were illegal, impeachment is a mechanism for demonstrating to the world that America can be relied upon not to elect another Bush when the political winds of fortune shift. Merely turning his political heirs out in an election is not sufficient. Mentioning Johnson and Carter fails - because Johnson and Carter were both personally repudiated by the electoral process. Johnson after losing in New Hampshire, and Carter at the short end of an electoral landslide.

IV. Impeachment as means of exposing weakness

Impeachment is something that a large fraction of the country wants. In a recent commissioned poll 53% said that "Congress should hold Bush accountable through impeachment if he lied to take us to Iraq." And in a separate poll, more than 50% said that he did lie to take us into Iraq. This means that impeachment is the plurality position in the country, and it has been growing steadily. It is not the economic fundamentals that are undermining Bush as much as the perception that he cannot be relied upon.

This is the "Carter test", an executive can be re-elected in bad economic times if he personally seems to have a plan and be in charge. FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, Reagan all faced less than ideal reelection economic environments, but all had a plan, and thus were given credit for success. Truman was reelected, in fact, just as a recession was starting. Bush is an economic failure, and impeachment will highlight that he cannot be trusted.

V. Impeachment as a means of setting right the Democratic Party

Most importantly is a point raised by Bush himself: to run impeachment the Democratic Party will have to do what Senator John Edwards did - namely, admit that Iraq was a mistake, take responsibility, and put forward leadership on Iraq. They will have to not only impeach Bush, but they will have to admit their own errors, and set forward an alternate policy.

VI. Impeachment as agenda.

In the wake of Tyler, Johnson, Nixon and Clinton impeachments the impeachment formed the basis for a political consensus as to what the agenda should be. With Tyler it was a move to restrain the executive branch and push outwards rather than inwards. With Johnson it was reconstruction and the post-war amendments, with Nixon it was opening government, including campaign finance reform, reform of Congress, the war powers act and other forms of restraining the Imperial Presidency. With Clinton it was seen as the basis for a rejection of executive managment of the economy. In each case the next chief executive won by running against the impeached executive.

Whether one agrees with those past agendas or not, it is clear that impeachment has been used, over and over again, to set the terms of debate.

VII. Impeachment as the basis for a campaign.

The Democratic Party has been using the language of impeachment. Reid has repeated "abuse of power", which is the very definition of what constitutes "high crimes and misdemeanors". The need to investigate Bush, that is, with sub peonas power, is a basic campaign theme for getting people to vote against their incumbent Republican law maker and instead for a Democratic majority. To investigate requires a majority in one house, particularly the House of Representatives.

If impeachment is the back drop that surrogates take, then it gives the elected party the cover to push for investigation. Impeachment creates the Democrats as a party of principle, rather than a party of careerism and opportunism. Because the country feels that impeachment is right, and those who disagree will at least see it as a principled stand, it takes back that important language of moral fortitude that a governing party must have.

Tags: Impeachment, George W. Bush, 2006 elections (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 254 comments

    •  Farsighted (4.00 / 11)

      Farsighted

      Notice: This Comment © ROGNM

      by ROGNM on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 03:40:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree with you 100%. (4.00 / 11)

      Thank you for the diary.  Impeachment should be the forefront of what Americans are thinking and saying right now.  Bush is such a huge canker on our society and on our world image.  The world is watching us and wondering what the hell has gone wrong in America?

      Good feet giving up good boots. http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/

      by panicbean on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 03:40:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ditto! (4.00 / 6)

        Dems will not hold impeachment hearings while Bill is campaigning with Hillary.

        by annefrank on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 03:43:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Just one thing to add (4.00 / 3)

        Nice diary. I only have one thing to add. Pelosi does not necessarily have to become Speaker "when" we take the House in '06. She could opt for House Majority Leader if she preferred to remain out of the Chain of Succession. Who knows, she may prefer that, and prefer riding herd over the her party.

        House Majority Leader is a powerful position and as it stands now it could be argued that DeLay is more powerful than Hastert.

        If House Majority Leader is what Pelosi opted for then of course we would vote for a new Speaker of the House, someone with Presidential stature and someone who would want to be in the chain of succession - just in case we take the Senate too ;)

        "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

        by talex on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 05:52:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Lets just hope the Repugs don't impeach him first (none / 0)

        In an attempt to save themselves.
        •  Wha? (4.00 / 2)

          I woundn't be crying if the Republican congress impeached anyone in the White House. It would come off as a cheap political ploy. Where have they been getting their agenda? Who's talking points do they parrot? Who says jump and has them asking how high?

          It isn't likely that the Republican controlled congress would move to impeach, but if they did try to save their own skin it would come across as just that.

          •  Admit it. (none / 0)

            The very thought of them snatching victory from our jaws disturbs you.  It may be thier best strategy.
            •  don't give them the satisfaction (none / 1)

              We can't afford to let this become an exercise in indignant posturing. The wingers are always accusing us of being malicious with issue intent for the sake of being mean, and assuming that we pout when are agendas are fulfilled by the other party because we lose credit. In matters of State interest it should not be a partisan score-keeping  venture (with the execption of the few points that Stirling made about party positioning). If the most significant outcome results from the removal of an incompetent, power abusing administration, restitution made in the eyes of the rest of the world, and a political confirmation of the rejection based on principle of the actions taken under the auspice of approval of the American people by this administration, then the end justifies the means. This should be rewarding regardless of who bradishes the sword.

              The very success of this action (should it "through the looking glass" be successful, however unlikely in execution) would have to reflect unified participation by both parties. For this we can't really afford to be smug about who gets to call penalty.

              "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell

              by txdem21 on Sun Nov 13, 2005 at 03:16:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  They wouldn't do that.. (none / 0)

          He would have health or family problems..

          They had fangs...they were drinking blood....They had this look in their eyes, totally animal. I think they were young Republicans. (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)

          by wrights on Sun Nov 13, 2005 at 05:06:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  pretty good except for.... (4.00 / 2)


      "Impeachment creates the Democrats as a party of principle, rather than a party of careerism and opportunism. Because the country feels that impeachment is right, and those who disagree will at least see it as a principled stand, it takes back that important language of moral fortitude that a governing party must have."

      I don't agree.

      In the past, that might have been possible.  The impeachment of Clinton for a below-job was pretty obviously political.  That unleashed the meme that impeachment can be a tool of partisan power politics.  

      Any group of Representatives that suggests impeachment in a serious way will be spun & branded as ideologues out for political revenge against a "great" president in wartime.  

      We need to be amply prepared for that contingency.

  •  We must impeach Bush (none / 1)

    If we impeach Bush, we get Cheney, that is bad, yes but Cheney is a power hungry evil man who would insist on running for President.

    Being the sitting President would give him the nomination.

    We would chrush Cheney with any Democrat in 08!

    That is it, Impeach, Impeach Impeach!!!

    •  I will say this again (4.00 / 53)

      Impeachment is not removal.

      Impeachment requires a straight majority vote of the House of Representatives. Possible.

      Removal requires 2/3 of the Senate. Not possible.

      Nixon resigned rather than face trial in the Senate, since he might well have been convicted, and even if not, he would have been humiliated. Bush will not resign.

      Those who argue against talk of impeachment with the impossible scenario of "President Cheney" are scare mongering. It is important to make clear the difference between "impeachment" and "removal", since they are separate acts and have separate standards.

      •  You really don't think the Senate (4.00 / 2)

        would vote to remove if approvals continue falling?
        Seems like Cheney is in a good position NOW to be impeached.

        Dems will not hold impeachment hearings while Bill is campaigning with Hillary.

        by annefrank on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 03:55:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I think W would resign too... (none / 1)

        ... as soon as the Dems get the house and we start to investigate this administration.

        Rather that air al the dirty laundry I thing Bush resigns.

        Hopefully Cheney isnt in jail by then!

      •  Bush would resign (4.00 / 5)

        There was a time when I would have agreed that Bush would never admit fault or resign.  But I now think differently.  This President is in dire straits politically, and I believe he is on the verge of a breakdown.  There are rumors that he is completely unpredictable, lashing out at staff (all levels, not just the most senior ones, like he used to do) and having tantrums, and at times walking around muttering to himself incoherently.  It's also been said that he is blaming everyone around him and saying everyone is out to get him.  Now I understand these are just rumors, but look at the man - he's really on the edge.

        When Miers withdrew, I realized that Bush would in fact resign if he felt he had no support.  He is not able to function on his own.

        A few key things have to happen though, for it to turn out like the Nixon situation, which would be our best outcome, IMHO.  Cheney has to be investigated or it has to become so clear that he committed indictable offenses that he would be forced to resign.  And Rove has to go.  Those two things, along with threat of impeachment, and his own personal deteriorization, would force Bush to resign.  I don't think this man really wants to be where he is to begin with, right now.  He wants to go back to the ranch.  If no one bails him out, he's going to flee.  This is his natural reaction.

        I fully agree with Stirling though, that the pressure for impeachment has to continue for all this to happen.

        "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." --Samuel Johnson

        by joanneleon on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 04:27:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Bush will never resign (4.00 / 5)

          because there is no one around him that would even admit that he doesn't shit marble. Disagreeing with Bush is termed "walking into the propeller" in this executive branch. Bush doesn't even listen to his father, let alone anyone else.
          •  He may not listen to his lackeys ... (4.00 / 6)

            but Miers proves that he and his closeted homophobic “brain” listen very hard to the political Christianists. So, I could imagine that if they decide that they have had enough of him, they could lean on him and pressure him to resign before he does irreparable harm to the radical right-wing movement.
            •  WHATEVERYONE IS FORGETTING (4.00 / 3)

              Is that although Bush only has 36% approval from all the American people according to polls, he still has over 70% approval from Republicans.

              So no 2/3 of Congress is going to vote for removal.

              Moderate Republican Senators are bolting from Bush World because to be reelected they need the votes of their moderate Republican constituents AND perhaps enough crossover votes from the independents or Democrats in their districts in order to return in 2006.

              When Bush's numbers begin dropping even further (he had over 80% Republicans on his side in the polls last month or so) and dropping substantially among Republicans, too, then we'll really see the fur fly.

            •  Bush Shouldnt Resign (1.00 / 3)

              He should commit suicide.

              The necessary switch from petroleum to alternate fuels is an opportunity for the United States to create a new national industry.

              by arvo on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 08:42:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  True (4.00 / 2)

            Besides what would Bush do?

            What corporation is going to hire him as CEO. None. Being president is his High Water Mark - and now that the levees have broke he would rather drown like a rat than be a man and take his lumps - something he has no idea how to do.

            "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

            by talex on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 05:56:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  He'd rather run away (4.00 / 3)

              I still think he'd rather run away than to go through the trauma of investigations and impeachment.  He ran from his previous failures, or waited for someone to fix everything for him.  He's not known for hanging around to try to fix problems or situations.  He bails, then waits for someone to set him up for his next opportunity.  This time, I think he's done.  No more jobs, just clearing brush and fitness training.  

              "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." --Samuel Johnson

              by joanneleon on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 06:16:36 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Good Points (none / 0)

                Can't argue with what you said. No doubt he has no spine.

                "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

                by talex on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 06:37:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Would Bush want to stay on (none / 1)

                  if Rove and Cheney both had to leave?  Bush has said Rove is his brain, and Cheney seems to be Bush's 'adult' -- he'd be lost without either of them.  

                  We're all pretty strange one way or another; some of us just hide it better. "Normal" is a dryer setting.

                  by david78209 on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 08:41:20 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Daddy complex (none / 1)

                I don't see this turkey ever resigning--too competitive and in particular, too competitive with the old man. And he never admits when he's wrong. No, he'll stick it out. But we might see more boils/carpet burns from pretzel accidents/biking mishaps/Segway mishaps/misbuttoned clothing/mysterious square box silhouettes under suit jackets/broken blood vessels on nose/etc.
      •  Thank you for this post! (4.00 / 4)

        You have laid out the arguement and reasonings for impeachment far more elaborately than I could in Kos' earlier post. This President and his administration are a prime example of why our country's founding fathers devised the terms of impeachment.

        "Its a grave digger's song, Praising God and State. So the Nation can live, So we all can remain as cattle. They demand a sacrifice..." -Flipper

        by Skid on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 05:16:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Such an important point. (4.00 / 3)

        There are many values and virtues of demanding that the President act in the national interest and within the law.

        Feints like "silly" and "President Cheney" are the refuges of cowards.  That attitude doesn't just weaken Democrats - it attacks all true patriots.

        levity defies gravity

        by Levity on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 09:56:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Don't forget, (none / 0)

      Cheney could still be indicted.
      •  or resign, or die. (none / 0)

        If Cheney did vacate the Vice Presidency, walking or feet first, who would/should/could Bush appoint as the new VP and get approved?  The Senate could filibuster, probably, if he appointed Rove or Santorum.  Is there a Republican whom the Democrats respect enough to confirm?  
        In the Nixon era Democrats controlled the House of Representatives but the speaker was Carl Albert, an alcoholic who couldn't stay awake during state of the union addresses.  When Agnew resigned, Democrats were happy enough to make Gerald Ford, who was House Minority Leader, the new Vice President so there'd be a sober hand on the wheel when Nixon was pushed out.  I'm hard put to think of a Republican whom Democrats have any reason to respect.  Any suggestions?  Colin Powell????

        We're all pretty strange one way or another; some of us just hide it better. "Normal" is a dryer setting.

        by david78209 on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 07:16:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Spector (4.00 / 3)

          He's about as mainstream as they come. He's old. He's got cancer.

          He's got friends on both sides, he's not really a threat to any of the presidential hopefuls.

          If he thought that Bush would resign or be impeached (AND convicted), he'd do it, I suspect. Even if he only wound up as pres for a year or two, it would cement his legacy.

    •  Cheney would be impeached too (4.00 / 4)

      I mean, if Bush is guilty, Cheney is double guilty with quadruple the evidence. Impeach Bush and you impeach them both. And this would only happen with a Dem House. Speaker Pelosi would be President Pelosi. We restore our dignity by holding The War Crimes President accountable. And there's no reason we would stop investigating Bush's crimes for the 2 years in between 2006 and 2008.

      I print my own bumper stickers, and my current one says:

      I Supported the War
      Wnen I
      Believed the Lies

      Perhaps next to that I will put:

      Impeach in the House
      Convict in the Senate

      Heh.

      Investigate War Lies --> Evidence for Senate Conviction --> End the War. Got it?

      by bejammin075 on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 07:48:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The likelihood of both being impeached (4.00 / 2)

        doesn't seem very high to me.  I'm not sure if you can even try both at exactly the same time and trigger the Speaker of the House thing.  In any case, I believe it's hardly worth considering because the GOP would never take the risk of losing the White House entirely.  One of them would resign and a VP successor would be appointed, unless they were absolutely certain of success, and I don't see how they could have such certainty.  

        "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." --Samuel Johnson

        by joanneleon on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 08:11:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  yes, impeachment is appropriate! (4.00 / 7)

    See Elizabeth de la Vega's article on this topic. My previous diary has link to her piece.  Anglico also did a diary on her article.  She lays it all out step by step.

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    May all beings be free from fear.

    by shakti on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 03:40:40 PM PDT

  •  Totally excellent! (4.00 / 3)

    I just wanted to add:

    With a Democratic congress, we would definitely have Pelosi, if both POTUS an VP were removed - it would hardly get that far. Also - if the Dems were serious about impeachment - chances are strong that Cheney would be removed first - whoever Bush jr. nominated to replace Mr. Evil, would be vetted or stalled in congress long enough to impeach Bush.

    Most of the reasons that Kos cited not to impeach only make sense if the GOP were still the majority party and they push for impeachment.

    ___
    To achieve the impossible, it is precisely the unthinkable that must be thought.
    ~Tom Robbins

    Conlige suspectos semper habitos

    by Marcus Junius Brutus on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 03:44:43 PM PDT

    •  Not Pelosi (none / 0)

      Pressure on Cheney to resign for health reasons will increase.

      Whomever G WB Cheney replaces Cheney with would invariably pardon G WB (wether G WB is convicted or simply resigns) ala Gerald Ford.

      The replacement VP/Potus would expect to get the 2008 nod from the GOP, but certainly without a bloody fight.

      Notice: This Comment © ROGNM

      by ROGNM on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 03:52:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  missing a word? (none / 0)

        I think you mean "NOT without a bloody fight."  With as many guns as the GOP already has locked and cocked and ready to shock, there's no way to keep this from boiling over.  "Let slip the Dogs of War" and all that.

        One more Justice and John McCain gets his wish.

        by JR on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 04:18:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What if we (4.00 / 2)

        win the House and Senate. Impeach and Convict. Bush and Cheney simultaneously.

        Oh, and get this!

        Then you prosecute and convict all the NeoCons you can, with the investigative power and persuasion of a Democratic Congress.

        With Bush and Cheney out of office, and President Pelosi in charge, no one gets pardoned.

        You herd me.

        No one gets pardoned

        BWAAA HAAAA HAAAA HAAAA HAAAAA !!!! !!
        That's how we get the last laugh. Lasting convictions. We play for keeps, bitches.

        Investigate War Lies --> Evidence for Senate Conviction --> End the War. Got it?

        by bejammin075 on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 07:52:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Oh you're no fun (none / 0)

    I want to let them roast as long as possible before before we finish them off.

    Like a cat playing with the mouse.

    Cut them a thousand times, but never let them quite bleed out.

    Figuratively speaking. . .

    It is no accident that Liberty and Liberal are the same word.

    by Sorceress Sarah on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 03:48:00 PM PDT

    •  The Killer Instinct (4.00 / 5)

      Always finish them off while you can. Impeachment makes it less likely that Bush will resign, since he knows that he has to fight it.
      •  Difference in perspective (none / 1)

        Yours is testosterone-driven

        Estrogen is more fun, I think

        It is no accident that Liberty and Liberal are the same word.

        by Sorceress Sarah on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 04:16:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You can never "finish them off" (none / 0)

        because America isn't a One-Party State. But you can govern well. Impeachment, while it sends the hearts of Bush-haters aflutter, is not good governance. We have already lost 5 years, let's not lose n more because of undiciplined politics.

        CBS, the new "Memory Hole" Ask McCain, "Where's Sattar?"!

        by Paul Goodman on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 04:41:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The choice isn't impeachment or good governance (4.00 / 14)

          the choice is impeachment or worse governance. Bush not under pressure isn't going to act any differently than he did in the first term. And in that term, every time some group said "well, let him sit, we have him" he would procede to cause a crisis.

          Bush is driven by a god complex. You have to do to him what he wanted to do to Saddam - knock him off the pedestal and humiliate him, because then, and only then, does he cease to function. The only way to get in his face, is to get on his case.

          •  Bravo (4.00 / 3)

            Exactly -- he can get MUCH worse if he pushes for black ops into Syria and Iran (probably already underway for the last couple of years) to incite an attack by the same.  Bush could not muster enough power to move "preemptively", but he could manage circuitously to inflame Syria and Iran and broaden US military action.

            He could also find a way to trigger a state of emergency here, thus tripping the dreading terms of the Real ID Act -- the clause which permits the DHS via the AG to suspend all laws WITHOUT JUDICIAL REVIEW in order to defend the borders.

            I can count so many other ways Bush could screw up this country and hard.  But as an impeached -- not removed -- president, every executive order he gave would be subject to thorough vetting and not given the license he had post-9/11.

            Don't know about the rest of you, but I can live in coast mode for 3 years under an impeached POTUS versus having family members re-deployed to the middle east for yet another lie.

  •  Stirling 1 Markos 0 (4.00 / 6)

    While I appreciate you both, and am grateful to Markos for all his effort and insight, on this issue it's no contest. I hope that Markos will see it that way to.

    -8.38, -4.97 "...there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Hamlet, Act II, Scene ii.

    by thingamabob on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 03:53:27 PM PDT

    •  Stirling 2 - Markos 0 (none / 0)

      Dems will not hold impeachment hearings while Bill is campaigning with Hillary.

      by annefrank on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 03:57:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Stirling 3 - Markos 0 (4.00 / 3)

        III. Impeachment as a means of removing legitimacy.

        Notice: This Comment © ROGNM

        by ROGNM on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 03:59:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Stitling-3 Markos-1 (none / 0)

          Moving forward with impeachment in the absence of STRONG eveidience of criminal activity will look to the public like a Ginrich style partisian witchhunt.

          Investigate BushCo aggresively by all means.  If and only if evidence of crimes by Bush and /or Cheney personally come to light should we talk of impeachment.

          In John McCain we have the opportunity to experience Bush's Third Term.

          by Sam I Am on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 04:51:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks Rummy (4.00 / 4)

            An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

            The court of public opinion is heavily ruled by press buzz, not hard facts.  Believe me, I wish it weren't so.  However, we are never going to have Nixon tapes again.  We aren't going to find a memo detailing how to steal an election.  We won't have minutes of a meeting with Bush saying, "Fuck it, let's make up evidence."  We've waited long enough for the smoking gun.  To borrow from Condi, we can't wait until the smoking gun is metaphoric mushroom cloud in Iraq, worldwide hatred, and a dying economy.  Oh wait, we already have.

          •  Probable Cause (4.00 / 7)

            50% of the public already believes he lied. That number isn't going down, but up.

            We have the political cover for this, it is time to stop running scared. It will seem to reactionaries like a witch hunt - but there is a cure for that - use their own rhetoric against them.

            •  Not necessarily (4.00 / 2)

              There's a big jump from "he lied" to actually supporting impeachment. I know--that poll--but don't forget the backlash that the Repubs took from the Clinton epsiode, and even if we're more justified, we also have to deal with a hostile media who will not hesitate to push the "Democrat power grab" meme unmercifully. Markos is right--we can guarantee that Bush can do no more harm by taking back the Congress, and that's enough.

              We can isolate him, and especially if we get both houses of Congress, we can govern, because Bush's cabinet members will bail on him as quick as they can once they realize they have no stroke with Congress.

              Of course, for us to do anything, we have to win Congress, and in my opinion, this kind of talk detracts from that necessity. Eyes on the prize, Stirling--there's time to talk impeachment if we win. I don't see how impeachment talk helps us win.

              I want to die like my grandfather, peacefully in my sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

              by incertus on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 09:55:53 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Have a look Mr President (4.00 / 3)

            Two well thought out but opposing arguments are presented.  They are compared and analyzed for accuracy by informed individuals, the positive and negative aspects of both are discussed, thus allowing a successful strategy to be decided upon and implemented.
            This is how you run an administration.

            Unfortunatly, by surrounding yourself with inept yes men, incompetent cronies and myopic idealogues you have made your removal from office the subject of this lively debate.

            Maybe you should pray on this a bit. How's that working for you anyway?

        •  This addresses the foreign relations (4.00 / 4)

          We, the nation, have a huge foreign relations dilemna.  Bush is so unpopular internationally, personally and politically, that he is dragging the nation down whenever he represents America in diplomatic missions.  I expected Kerry to do two things if he took office.  The first was obvious - discover the truth about where we stood with Iraq.  The second was a huge diplomatic sweep to mend our international relationships.  As long as Bush is in the driver's seat, our international relationships will continue to fray.  And with Iraq, we need all the help we can get and we won't be getting it with Bush as Commander in Chief.

          Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

          by Fabian on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 05:15:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Stirling 99 - Markos 'minus 50' (4.00 / 4)

      minus 50 for suggesting that the impeachment caucus here "think SMALL". Be nice Markos

      "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

      by talex on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 06:11:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  when the Republicans impeached Clinton (4.00 / 5)

    his approval went through the roof, the Republicans suffered unprecedented losses in the midterms, it set their party back for a few years, delaying their rise, and Newt Gingrich lost his job.

    Yeah, a war is dramatically different from a blowjob, but I haven't seen anything to prove things would be different this time around.

    I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

    by AnnArborBlue on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 03:55:45 PM PDT

    •  I still don't know what would be best (none / 0)

      but I doubt people would really vote against democrats if they impeached the president. Bush did knowingly lie us into a war. This is a high crime. Frankly, I think this argument, while an interesting intellectual exercise, is not realistic. The republicans are not going to impeach Bush, and the democrats will likely not regain congress in 2006. They will make gains, they may even come close, but I doubt they will take the house in one fell swoop. It is just too much to hope for. I hope I'm wrong.

      Impossible is nothing

      by DrSpike on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 04:11:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Immaterial (4.00 / 7)

      1. Clinton the President was paralyzed.

      This isn't a game about generic approval ratings, it is about power. Clinton got nothing done after impeachment, and even his own Vice President had to distance himself from Clinton. In fact, so much so that it may have prevented Gore from using Clinton in 2000.

      2. The Republicans held congress and took the Presidency at the next opportunity.

      And have held it, with a brief finagle by Daschle - bought at the cost of 1.2 trillion dollars in tax cuts that Jeffords insisted on voting for as part of the deal - in the Senate.

      3. Bush's numbers aren't going through the roof.

      On the contrary, impeachment talk will shake the last moderates loose. Bush is now down to virtually his base in the polls - 35%.

      •  Clinton was paralyzed (none / 0)

        from continuing to enact a popular agenda.  This is certainly not the case with Bush.

        Do we really want to divert Bush from proposing more lead balloon policies like Social Security Reform?

        In John McCain we have the opportunity to experience Bush's Third Term.

        by Sam I Am on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 04:59:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  No (4.00 / 3)

        Republicans lost seats in the following midterm, something that had happened I believe once since the Civil War.

        And they lost seats the next time around too.

        This "Republicans impeached Clinton and they now own Congress" strikes me as way too much of a post hoc ergo propter hoc argument.

        You say it'll shake the moderates loose? I say it'll make Dems look crazy.

        I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

        by AnnArborBlue on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 05:06:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Losing seats means nothing in the House (none / 0)

          What matters is the majority.
          •  ok (4.00 / 2)

            then they lost 4 seats in the Senate in 2000. Which set the stage for Jeffords to defect and the Dems to briefly take control.

            Impeachment was supposedly this great move for Republicans, but Newt lost his job, and the GOP electoral advantage didn't really take shape until 2002, post 9/11.

            If impeachment was such a great move for Republicans, why didn't it show up in results until years later?

            I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

            by AnnArborBlue on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 05:28:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Because (4.00 / 6)

              the American people didn't think the Clinton impeachment was deserved.  That is not the case today, if the polls are to be trusted.  I believe the last poll I saw said that over 50% of the people think Bush should be impeached, if he lied about the reasons for the Iraq war.

              And also, my God, look at the condition of this country right now, compared to what it was when Clinton was impeached.

              "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." --Samuel Johnson

              by joanneleon on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 06:36:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Right (4.00 / 6)

                this is the difference.

                The people saw the Clinton impeachment as a personal vendetta against him. That's why his approval ratings didn't go down. It had NOTHING to do with his job as president. NOTHING.

                If Bush is impeached, he WILL be convicted. The hurdle is the impeachment, not the conviction. His trangressions reach the level the founders foresaw. Clinton's didn't, and that's why he wasn't convicted. Enough of the Senators realized that. They took their job seriously.

                I suspect they will again. And this time, they WOULD convict.

                •  To add to this: (none / 1)

                  If Bush is impeached, he WILL be convicted. The hurdle is the impeachment, not the conviction. His trangressions reach the level the founders foresaw. Clinton's didn't, and that's why he wasn't convicted.

                  I would also suggest that the GOP didn't want to run against an incumbent President Gore.

                  ~~~~~~~
                  Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain

                  Blogesque

                  by OhioLen on Sun Nov 13, 2005 at 09:49:00 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  He won't be convicted (none / 0)

                  if we don't have the Senate. No Republicans are feeling pressured to say that Bush lied now, on the contrary they're on Sunday shows defending him all the time. Even if we did have the Senate, it would be much harder for Democrats from conservative states (Nelson, for example) to go along with it without a backlash. Even if people in those states are starting to disapprove of Bush, they're still far more likely to buy into the "aid and comfort to the enemy" stuff. Bush just can't be removed from office, at least not with what we have today.
      •  oh, and by the way (4.00 / 4)

        Dems WON the presidency following impeachment. Gore got 3 million more popular votes and probably won the electoral college vote.

        I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

        by AnnArborBlue on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 05:34:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That's Right (none / 0)

        And we could run on "Bringing Honor and Integrity Back to the White House. HAHA

        "You Have The Power!" - Howard Dean

        by talex on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 06:15:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Beyond Nuclear (4.00 / 2)

        Are impeachment hearings just a jazzed up version of the filibuster? Consider the likely Republican talking points. We understand the American people are upset. Showing your displeasure with the President is alright. We live in a democracy. The Democrats will say, this is really a grave and important step, and they will counter, Another impeachment hearing? Americans are tired of this partisan bickering. At that moment some congressional types will try to reach across the aisle. Democrats will say, the President lied, and they will say, He was only repeating information he read in a flawed intelligence report.
        Tim Matthews Russert will pose the question this way, This isn't a referundum on the Republican party, is it? This is about one man, the President, and the Democrats had a chance to replace him, and they couldn't run a guy who could win, so this is just sour grapes, right? The Republicans will run some polls that show support for tax relief, smaller government, less interference in foreign affairs, repeating the Bush campaign platform of 2000, and the polls will look okay. John McCain, the Republican version of the Trojan horse, will try once more to fool the Democrats into thinking he is one of them.
        The Democrats will enter their confessional period. A terrorist will strike a symbolic blow, and the Democrats will look like whining assholes. At that moment a real asshole will step forward, preaching the literal translation of the Patriot Act, and he will be elected out of fear, and (yes) loathing. Democrats who signed off on Iraq must recuse themselves from the impeachment hearings. Making a list of the Republican talking points is a good place to start when deciding whether to turn the impeachement hearings into a partisan donnybrook, or death by a thousand cuts. The later is preferred.

        "Everything is chrome in the future..." Sponge Bob Square Pants

        by agent double o soul on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 07:01:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  people aren't stupid (4.00 / 8)

      clinton was impeached for a blowjob, and people didn't think that was worth doing that over. same with the government shutdown, people agreed with clinton's vision of what the federal government ought to be for more than the right's, and so punished gingrich for his stubbornness. it wasn't some mechanistic thing where the executive is always given the benefit of the doubt, it had to do with the particulars of the case.

      the american people are pissed about this war and everything else, and bush lied a third of them into it (a third of us knew from the get-go, and a third didn't care if there was any evidence as long as we got to kill ay-rabs). if people aren't happy about the war, they would hardly oppose bush's impeachment for said abuse of office.

      surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

      by wu ming on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 04:17:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  right (none / 1)

        but impeachment is never going to happen with this congress. So the entire calculation is purely political. The case that impeachment is a smart move politically is about 75000 times murkier than people here are making it out to be.

        Here's an idea; do a poll asking this question: "Should George W. Bush be impeached?"

        If you still get 50 percent, then I'll shut up.

        I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

        by AnnArborBlue on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 05:03:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I've asked around (none / 1)

          and uh, it's in the high 90s here:)
          •  see but I think that's part of the problem (none / 1)

            We see all sorts of outrage and anger in the blogosphere, see a lot of impeachment talk, and I think trick ourselves into thinking it's a wider sentiment than it actually is.

            I really want to see the actual question asked. "Should George W. Bush be impeached?"

            Cause right now all we have is a push poll.

            I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

            by AnnArborBlue on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 05:36:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You're point (4.00 / 2)

              is very well taken. I was joking - of course impeachment sentiments are going to be in the high 90s around here. and they'd be bellow 10% over on redstate.

              I like the political ramifications of Impeachment trials. I think the time is right. But I agree with you that this is very delicate and could backfire, and must be handled not as a political show but as a grave matter of state.

              I think democrats are ready to pull it off. And even if it's a push now, once the trial starts - again, if done properly - Bush's numbers could drop into the low 20's by late 2007.

              Again, just my opinion, but I think we as a nation are ready.

            •  Not A Push Poll (none / 1)

              The question in the Ipsos Public Affairs poll was:

              "If President Bush did not tell the truth about his reasons for going to war with Iraq, Congress should consider holding him accountable by impeaching him."

              That's not a push poll.  

              There are two forms of push poll. One is a campaign message in drag as a poll. You want to tell people that Joe Bloe is a murderer. So you call up and ask them the question, "Does that fact that Joe Bloe is a murderer make you more likely or less likely to vote for him?"

              The other type is where you are trying to get a certain result, and you push people to give the answer you're looking for.  This sort of push poll on impeachment might read: "Since it's now known that Bush lied about his reaons for going to war with Irag, Congress should consider holding him accountable by impeaching him."

              This poll does not fit either definition of a push poll.

              There is, of course, a separate question--the question of interpretation.  This question is not, of course, the same as asking, "If President Bush did not tell the truth about his reasons for going to war with Iraq, Congress should impeach him and remove him from office."  It most certainly is a mistake or intentionally misleading to equate the two.

              However, it would really be premature to ask this second variant until an inquiry has been done. So it is not a misrepresentation to take this question as it is currently worded, as a fair indication of support for impeachment.

        •  Ipsos poll came in at 50% (4.00 / 3)

          This was a month ago, BEFORE the Libby indictment.

          Our comrades at AfterDowningStreet.org paid for the poll.

          I have NO doubts that poll would now come in higher after the Libby indictments.  We're already there, in actionable zone; an investigation related to impeachment procedings would probably get us a percentage that mirrors Bush's approval rating.

          •  yeah but that was a push poll (none / 0)

            it was asked as a hypothetical. "IF Bush lied...should Congress CONSIDER" etc etc.

            Ask any hypothetical and you're gonna get a high number.

            I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

            by AnnArborBlue on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 06:06:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Note my comment about the investigation (4.00 / 3)

              Think we're already seeing a lot of press about Bush's lies, I genuinely don't believe we're under 50% for that reason.  He really screwed the pooch with his Veteran's Day speech, now losing vets like crazy.
              •  I think people are pissed as hell at him (none / 0)

                but I think there's a big difference between being pissed as hell and wanting a guy impeached.

                I really need to see the question asked in a straightforward manner and get a similar result before I take it seriously. (Not that anyone gives a damn whether or not I take it seriously obviously)

                I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

                by AnnArborBlue on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 06:24:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I think the biggest bar to impeachment (4.00 / 5)

                  is Cheney.

                  People don't like Bush, but they absolutely LOATHE Cheney.

                  Given a choice between them, they'll take Bush.

                  However, if Cheney resigns, dies, or is removed by being indicted/convicted, all bets are off.

      •  stupid (none / 0)

        people there are many. At least half of us voted for those assholes. I'd call that either stupid or brainwashed. You pick.
        •  and yet well over 70% (4.00 / 5)

          thought well of clinton during his impeachment. it's easy to be smug about things, but far more useful to look into why people approach things the way they do.

          oh, and with a 50% turnout, only about a quarter of us voted for these guys. still too much, but less than half.

          surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

          by wu ming on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 08:44:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Point taken (4.00 / 3)

            However, out of those who didn't vote I wonder how many tried and couldn't. That there is one who couldn't is shameful. Let's face it. Our democracy is tainted.
            •  i imagine (4.00 / 2)

              that voter suppression, intimidation, fraud, and demoralization are all intentional factors in our low (recorded) voting rate.it is truly shameful, and worthy of serious reforms on all fronts, including seriously addressing the reasons why people feel that their voice and vote are not heard in their democracy.

              surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

              by wu ming on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 10:20:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  That's because (4.00 / 7)

      people liked Clinton and thought he was doing a good job overall.  Faced with the realization that a president they felt was doing a good job could be booted out of office, they said they approved of him in polls to send a signal about what they wanted.  And then they went to the polls in November and cast votes to signal the GOP once again to shut up about Lewinsky.  When the GOP ignored that and impeached Clinton anyway, people were furious.

      It's very different from today's climate in which the majority of Americans dislike Bush, think he's doing a terrible job, and are in favor of impeachment.  Never at any point did the majority of Americans favor impeaching Clinton - that's one of the truly, perhaps the most, important differences.

      People don't like it when they're the majority and they're being ignored, as it goes against the sense of entitlement that being the majority confers - if there is no impeachment when the majority of Americans favor it, expect the same blowback.  When the majority says they want to see a president remain in office, they want Congress to act accordingly.  When the majority says they want to see a president impeached, they want Congress to act accordingly.  When I comment that a Democratic House after the 2006 elections would make impeachment possible, I see people's eyes just light up.  They don't want to have to wait through three more years of a president they hate; they want a way to hit back now.  It's a galvanizing factor for GOTV and for throwing out your local Repug congresscritter.

  •  you hit the nail on the head (4.00 / 10)

    these are precisely the main points behind impeaching Bush. It is NOT necessarily to remove him from office but to bring to the truth to the forefront.

    Tim Rutten has a great article in LA Times today in which he fears that the gov't will just go ahead and threaten Dana Priest with not revealing sources and even jail her, after publishingnn THE TRUTH in her 11/2 WaPo article revealing the "black site" prisons.

    The surefire way through the Republican firewall is to push for impeachment. At the very least, this will force out the serious issues on the Congress floor.

  •  All the damage to the GOP has been self-inflicted (4.00 / 3)

    Sadly, the Democratic Party has been for the most part impotent in the last five years to effect much change. If anything, we can only blame ourselves for the position we are currently in because too many of our Democratic elected officials compromised themselves by being so intimidated by the Bush/Rove/Cheney strategies that they went along with many of them.

    Fortunately, it is clear to everyone that the Republicans have had control of all three branches of the government. The voters know without a doubt who is responsible for the horrendous predicament our country is in.

    If we win back the Senate and the House next year, we would do little good for our country or our party if we go forward with impeachment proceedings, for several reasons:

       1. We would have been in the political wilderness for six years and the damage in terms of legislation and such will be tremendous. Just as so little got done during Clinton's impeachment hearings, we would be able to get very little of our agenda done if our time is wasted  punishing Bush. The people will already have punished them by taking away the thing they crave most: power.
       2. Impeachment fits so perfectly into the Wingnut philosophy, and not into ours, because Wingnuts hate government. Impeachment allowed them to put the breaks not just on Clinton  and his agenda but on government itself. We as Democrats believe that government plays an important role in people's lives. (Do not mistake me for a big government liberal; I just believe that radically free-markets do not solve all the ills of society. Government must play some role to counter the inequities inherent in the market.)
       3. By using our newly attained power to show the country what we stand for, we will be able to define ourselves against a weakened Bush. He will either go along with what we do, which will infuriate his base by showing him to be a weakling and a fraud. Or he will oppose us and put in relief what a whackjob he truly is.
       4. Our lust for impeachment derives mostly from our deep dislike for this man and his people and our feeling they deserve punishment.  The American people will see through our desire for revenge and the only thing that could come of it would be the martyrdom of George Bush. Remember, Bill Clinton had some of his highest approval ratings during the whole impeachment episode because the American people felt the GOP was acting in the name of political gain rather than out of principle. This gang who can't shoot straight is unraveling all by themselves and few if any polls find the American people believe their troubles are the result of politics. The Republican's trouble are a clear case of corruption and incompetence. Let's not make them sympathetic figures.

    Some have argued that justice for crimes committed requires that we impeach Bush. Justice for our country requires that we start running our country and serving our people in a way that lives up to the moral standards that have made our country great in the past.

    I live in my own little world...but it's okay. They know me here.

    by John Campanelli on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 03:57:55 PM PDT

    •  Can't agree with you (4.00 / 3)

      For one thing, can you see W. signing legislation passed by a Democratic Congress into law? Nothing much productive is going to come of that scenario anyway, so why not use that time to get the truth out and show the world that the American people repudiate what's been done in their names?
      •  His vetoing legislation allow us set up contrast (4.00 / 2)

        ...between our governing philosopy and that of the GOP. Sometimes it takes awhile to make the case for legislation. The other party opposing us and defending their own previous record is part of our making the argument for our values.

        About letting the world know we repudiate W's deeds: look at what is going on in the U.K. right now. Even though Blair got reelected, his own party is rejecting his attempts to further destroy the civil liberties of guaranteed in its Constitution. You can trust that the world will see the election of a Democratic Senate and House as a repudiation of this regime, even if it two years too late.

        I live in my own little world...but it's okay. They know me here.

        by John Campanelli on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 04:49:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No constitution (4.00 / 2)

          I agree with you, but the UK doesn't have a constitution guaranteeing civil liberties. That's why the vote against Blair was so imporant: All it takes is a simple majority in Parliament, and the police could have the power to just lock people up for no reason. (Fortunately, he couldn't get that majority.)
    •  Can't agree with this: (4.00 / 4)

      "Our lust for impeachment derives mostly from our deep dislike for this man and his people and our feeling they deserve punishment.  The American people will see through our desire for revenge..."

      Revenge? No, the "high crime" of preemptive war based on lies and the danger he is to our country and the world! The efforts to destroy the Constitution and our inalienable rights. I trust most Americans to see the seriousness of his crimes which will come to light in a real investigation.

      It's the Supreme Court, Stupid!

      by kathika on Sun Nov 13, 2005 at 02:51:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Make them a 10 ton boat anchor first (4.00 / 8)

    1. Make BushCo the 10 ton boat anchor
    2. Hang that dead cat around their necks until it rots off
    3. Win in 2006, take House and Senate
    4. Start Impeachment process
    AND the realignment process

    In 2009:
    Charter that 757 filled with BushCo with a flight plan to the Hague......

    So you have it all!

  •  Do it (4.00 / 8)

    No more "Republican Lite" Democrats, no more bipartisanship-as-long-as-we-Republicans-call-the-shots, a total shipwreck of the Bush agenda, constant news coverage, charges repeated and repeated again and again, desertions, confusion, confessions, disruptions, the ultimate wedge issue, constant pressure, high-minded Democrats reluctantly taking a stand to defend their oaths, and a White House that cannot manage the political landscape while juggling land mines.

    The most important act of governance in our time is to bring George W. Bush and his Mafioso to a complete, shuddering halt.

    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Who will watch the watchers?)

    by The Crusty Bunker on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 04:05:15 PM PDT

  •  Litmus test for Congressional candidates: (3.80 / 5)

    Based on what you know today, will you vote to impeach George Bush and Dick Cheney?

    •  Every month they will know more (4.00 / 3)

      A nice tracking poll, it is.

      Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Who will watch the watchers?)

      by The Crusty Bunker on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 04:18:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Just forcing them to own up to reality is handy (4.00 / 6)

      Must read boilerplate from Josh Marshall at Talking Points Memo. Nothing Kossacks haven't read before but seeing it laid out without the trimmings and boiled down to its essence is bracing.

      What a sorry, sorry, unfortunate president -- caught in his lies, his half-truths, his reckless disregard ... caught with, well ... caught with time. Time has finally caught up to him. And now he doesn't have the popularity to beat back all the people trying to call him to account. He could; but now he can't. So he's caught. And his best play is to accuse his critics of rewriting history, of playing fast and loose with the truth -- a sad, pathetic man.

      Chronicling the full measure of the Bush administration's mendacity with regards to the war is a difficult task -- not because of a dearth of evidence for it but because of its so many layers, all its multidimensionality. It's almost like one of those Russian egg novelties in which each layer opened reveals another layer beneath it. Hard as it may be, in the interests of getting Mr. Bush past the phases of denial and anger, let's just hit on some of the main themes. [...] (11/12/05 Talking Points Memo / Marshall)

      Eliminating any wiggle room whatsoever for congressional candidates -- esp the GOoPers who circled wagons and allowed the mendacity and congressional thuggery -- is crucial during the campaign season.

  •  Thank you so much Stirling! (4.00 / 3)

    Dems will not hold impeachment hearings while Bill is campaigning with Hillary.

    by annefrank on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 04:13:02 PM PDT

  •  Exceptionally well agrued (4.00 / 4)

    Impeaching Bush does not mean we get Cheney, Hastert or Condi as president. They are all co-joined. Cheney's future (at 19%) is in doubt under the Libby indictment and, his blatantly lobbying for torture, his abuse of power will have an accounting. Hastert looks like he'll be smeared by Abramoff. Next in line, Condi-the-mushroom-cloud, she goes down with Bush.

    Right now McCain is looking good. He's the one to watch. In the meanwhile, Independents, stray dems, centrist republicans are sick of being stuffed BS and are asking what has our country become? In Iraq we pretend we're there for freedom and democracy while, here at home, our VP is chief of Torturer, and the title holder of president a winged duck.

    Can we survive 3 more years of this cancer? Doubtful.

    Stirling, thanks for this counter post to Kos.

    Let's stop feeding greed. In fact, propose we make it a commandment: The greedy shall not be fed.

    by idredit on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 04:14:02 PM PDT

  •  Reason 8 (4.00 / 15)

    How about impeachment as a warning not to try it again?

    Almost the complete current cast of traitorous dumbfucks with their fingerprints on Iraq policy was a principal or an understudy in the Reagan and/or Bush I administrations, involved in the covert operations that built Al Qaeda (by creating the mujahadeen hydra) and/or involved in the outrages of Iran-Contra.

    They covertly coopted American policy through lies, distortion, and extra-legal activity.  That they all got away with it, with effectively no repercussions, surely only inspired the current outrages.

    For the record, we still have more than enough petroleum to trigger runaway greenhouse effects before the stuff runs out for good.

    by Minerva on Sat Nov 12, 2005 at 04:14:53 PM PDT

    •  Yes, as deterrence - this should top the list! (4.00 / 7)

      Especially since The Bush/Republican attack on Saddam was that other nations with territorial/nuclear/WMD ambitions should learn a lesson!
      Well future presidents should learn a lesson too, not to mislead congress, and treat the US army as a system dispensing payback to their personal enemies.
    •  Thank you Stirling! Thank you, Minerva! (4.00 / 5)

      Together, you've saved me hours of work on my first diary. I knew that these eight points needed to be pointed out to our community, but I certainly was not looking forward to challenging both Markos and Chris by pointing out these things. It would have taken me till Monday to finish writing my thoughts on this issue.
      Lo and behold!! The very points I've been thinking, and occasionally pushing in posted comments, have all been laid out better than I could have written them! I love this place! -[reason #4]
      I would like to add one thing, not yet mentioned here, and emphasize one thing undermentioned here: The addition is that we owe it to the dead and maimed, even more than we owe it to our country's future, that the guilty mass murderers in power be brought before the justice of public examination (at the very least).
      That leads directly to the undermentioned thing. We activists often get so caught up in our own righteous thoughts that we fail to pay attention to the people we're supposed to be having those thoughts for. Walk the neighborhoods, talk to ordinary, "non-political" citizens, and you will have no trouble believing the afterdowningstreet.org-financed poll on impeachment.
      I have done so, and everywhere I brin