Daily Kos

Dawn of the Dummies: Brains! Brraaaiinnns!

Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 04:31:35 AM PDT

In C. M. Kornbluth's 1951 sci fi short, The Marching Morons, a modern day huckster takes a one way trip to the future and discovers that progress didn't quite go as expected.  The breeding rate of smart, educated people versus that of the not-so-bright underclass has left the world with an average IQ less than the temperature of Milwaukee in January, and only said conman can save the few smarties left from moronic domination.  The story is racist, classist, elitist, terribly dated, and really quite funny.

But of course, Kornbluth got everything wrong -- well, everything but the results   Because if some researchers are right, America is facing a huge shortage of a resource that can't be fixed no matter how many national parks we're willing to drill, or how many old growth trees we chop down.  We're running out of smart people.

Day of the Living Boomers

Okay, we're not running out of all smart people.  The people reading this, for instance, are wonderfully quick, blessed with access to more information and opinion than the brightest lights of the past could have ever wished, and equipped with tools that allow them to gobble down data like a skinny Japanese kid at a hot dog eating contest.  So relax, you're wicked smart.  It's just that you're probably not the right kind of smart.

According to Edward Gordon, author of The 2010 Meltdown, America is facing a resource shortage that's going to impact us much more quickly than peak oil.  Within just three years, Gordon says we're going to start suffering from a critical shortage of engineers and scientists.  By the titular date of his book, that crisis is going to be critical enough that it will wreck the economy.

Today, America's work force is divided into three parts: about 25 percent are the 'smart people' who are educated and also have special career skills; another 25 percent are the 'walking dead,' victims of mergers or technological change and need to acquire new skills in order to change jobs or even careers; and up to 50 percent are the 'techno-peasants,' poorly educated adults with few if any special career skills.

Yeah, you've heard some of this "we don't train enough scientists/engineers" moaning before.  Trust me, you haven't heard it quite like this.

According to Gordon, part of the fault lies with the Baby Boomers (but hey, don't all disasters start with the Boomers?).  First off, there's a lot of them, and they produced a truckload of scientific types.  Following on the technological gains that came from World War II -- and spurred on by both the fear and excitement generated by Sputnik -- there was a national push toward science education.  Boomers caught this wave, and the whole nation surfed into the high tech world of personal computers and the net.

But in the generations that have followed that big bulge through the population python, science and engineering... eh, not so much.  Watching corporate CEO's slurp down more and more of the money, has given youngsters the sneaky suspicion that business and investment is where the cash lies.  Gordon, whose background and previous books concerned education, claims that the result is a huge surplus of graduates in fields like business, marketing, and communications.  We have the MBAs needed to run a million Microsofts.  We just don't have the engineers it takes to design new products.

As the Boomers start to retire, they don't just represent an increasing burden on Social Security and Medicare, they also represent an immense brain drain.  The phenomenon of older engineers working for younger managers is not an exception, it's the reality.  Not only do these folks have a lot of technical training, they also have intimate knowledge of products and processes specific to the corporations they work for -- information that's hard to reproduce.  As those engineers start to go out the door, the managers may find productivity can't keep up -- no matter which historical tyrant they adopt as an organizational role model.

Being an education guy, Gordon sees the prevention of America's zombification as an education problem.

The solution to this tech labor market meltdown must begin in the K-12 grades. All states must mandate for every student the math and science foundation skills that are essential to every academic discipline and the future of a New America.
 Note that Gordon is not embracing the No Child Left Behind Act.  He's down on the whole concept of standardized tests, and points to studies that show a very poor correlation between scores on achievement tests and everything from high school graduation rates to lifetime earnings.  Gordon maintains that it's not more testing that schools require, it's more teaching, specifically more science and math.

The title of the book may make you think that Gordon is as doom-and-gloomy as say... me, but the truth is this book is really rather optimistic.  The overall idea is that corporations are already jonesing for more science types, and those retiring Boomers are going to create high demand, along with high prices.  If we just start feeding the pipeline through more science education, we'll come out of this even better than we are now.

Not surprisingly, I think Gordon's an optimist.

Night of the Living Outsource

While Gordon focuses on education, and maintains that American corporations are soon to be starving for the tech savvy, he misses another part of the picture.  Those kids who are heading off to business school are not as dumb as he makes them out to be.  

While a newly minted chemical or electrical engineer can look forward to a decent starting salary, they also face more limited opportunities, both in the areas where they can find employment, and at the top end of their scale.  And if the $54,000 an engineer might haul down looks good, it looks a lot worse compared to the $140,000 plus perks available to an MBA from a good school.  Most engineering programs are hard, require at least five years, and are often accompanied by apprenticeship programs.  Why should anyone subject themselves to that if they're not going to be rewarded?

When a smart kid sees news like the insane bonuses being handed out by Wall Street firms, where a full partner can pull in $40 million and even the lowliest first year is getting another $100,000 dropped on top of her six figure salary, where are they going to head?  99% of students who can make it through a top-notch electrical engineering program are equally capable of knocking off a respected MBA.  Businesses can whine all they want about a lack of good engineers and scientists, but as long as they continue to reward the money men above all else, the brightest minds are going to go toward the light.

Other forces are at work on the science and engineering fields.  As Gordon predicted, we are hearing some gnashing of teeth over the retirement of those experienced engineers, but at the same time, anyone who used to program computers for a living can tell you that computer jobs are going bye-bye -- 600,000 of them in the last year alone.  Starting salaries in information science and computer engineering are actually dropping, not rising.  How does this mesh with our supposed tech hunger?

The truth is, the US demand for scientists and engineers comes down to a need for specialists.  If you're doing a GIS project that requires a lot of knowledge of Oracle application servers and ESRI back end products, then you're willing to shell out big bucks for experts in these areas.  But computer programmers just out of school?  Eh, they're just cogs in the system.  You might as well buy those cogs from India, where they're nominally cheaper and often better trained.

American corporations are not only outsourcing the "line work" of coding or hardware assembly, they're also sending the mental heavy lifting overseas.  Intel recently announced a billion dollar plus investment in India.  This doesn't sound too unusual.  Intel has billion dollar factories all over the world.  Only this new site is not a chip facility -- it's where Intel plans to do their next generation of R&D.  Want to know who really has an engineering shortage?  India.  China.  They're cranking out herds of scientists and engineers, and they still can't make them fast enough.  

In the words of Kevin Barnes, a software engineer who has spent significant time working in tech-heavy Bangalore:

The practical reality is that anyone in India who can spell Java already has a job. More experienced engineers do exist, especially a fairly sizable group that lived in the US and has returned to India, but the demand curve for the best of these is such that they may get paid as much as ten times what a fresh graduate gets paid.  The problem is purely economic. The demand has outstripped the supply for good engineers and as a result people who have no love for code (or even any like for it) have rushed in to fill the gap.

Hmm, that sounds like Gordon's prediction, all right.  Only it's the wrong country.  Engineers who have lived in the United States for decades are heading for India, because that's where the jobs are.

According to Tom Friedman's The World is Flat India, China, and Mexico are all cranking out new engineers and scientists at a higher rate than the United States.  India alone producing 360,000 engineers a year, four times what the US produces.  Of all Bachelor degrees awarded in the United States, just 11% are in science or engineering, compared to a worldwide average of 23%.  In China and India, that number is 50%

Why are schools in those other nations cranking out so many scientists and engineers?  Because companies in those countries are hiring them and paying them more than they can get in other fields.  The smartest, most ambitious kids in those countries go into science, because companies in those countries -- unlike the US -- demonstrate how they value science by putting that value on a pay check.  Meanwhile, US companies pay lip service to their desire for more graduates in these areas, but continue to reward the members of management.

All of this contributes to the hugely imbalanced pay scale in the United States in which executives recieve outsized compensation for gutting their own companies.  Listen to the words of Jack "The Knife" Welch:

Some people say CEO pay should be limited to some multiple of what other employees make, 200 or 300 times other employees.  I'm telling you, don't let them put a limit on what you can make!
 Actually, Jack, worldwide that number is more like 15-30x the lowest employee, but US executives are unwilling to be bound to a number even ten times what's being seen elsewhere in the world.

Quick review:

  1. Other countries (in particular India and China) are rewarding engineers and scientists, offering many positions and pay that's very high relative to other jobs in their country.
  2. As a result, these countries are attracting many more of their brightest students to these areas, turning out a much greater number of scientific graduates than the United States.
  3. The United States instead rewards executives at a much higher rate than in other nations.

The result of this is a major factor in what we've all experienced: all the economic growth in the United States is being absorbed by a very small number of people.  Meanwhile, the "science friendly" nations are not only growing more quickly, the results of that growth are visible at all levels of the economy.

When I see companies in the US basing their engineers here and outsourcing their frickin' management overseas, then I'll believe that the US has some respect for these fields.  For right now, I see no evidence that American corporations place any real value on scientific knowledge.

Return of the Living Doom

If a scientific brain drain doesn't sound bad enough to you, allow me to pile on the darkness by dragging in a few of my older bits.  

In a diary called The End of Everything, I talked about the idea that ideas themselves are getting harder to come by.  We've already mined the shallow end of the information ore reserve, and now we're having to go deep.  It now takes much more time, money, and brainpower to make headway on new discoveries and new practical applications than it did a few decades ago.

In another diary called Playing Chicken with the Apocalypse, I argued that the window in which we could develop technological solutions to free us from the oncoming failure of cheap oil was closing.

Combine those two with this piece and what have you got?


  • We're facing a crisis that needs immense scientific brainpower to solve.

  • Each problem requires more brainpower than the last.

  • We're producing fewer and fewer people to meet these needs.


If we're going to find some "out" from the cheap energy trap before resource shortages close in and push us all way back down the ladder of progress, it looks like we may be depending on Indian and Chinese scientists to discover that escape hatch.  

But buck up, things aren't all bad.  In twenty years or so, those Indian and Chinese companies are going to need people to work the assembly lines building their next generation gadgets.  American workers may need training, but I'm sure we can compete on prices against Bangladesh.

originally posted at

Tags: education, science, engineering, outsourcing, zombies (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

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  •  My own company (4.00 / 100)

    Twenty years ago, I attended a meeting in which all the executives talked about where they had started with the company.  More than half of the top executives had started at low-level jobs in the company and worked their way up.  Of those, a large number had been in some branch of engineering -- including the CEO.  

    Oh, and the salary of the CEO was about 15 times what I was making as a first year geologist.

    Now, not one member of the executive ranks has an engineering background.  It's MBA, MBA, MBA, former politician, with all but one of them having come in as management from other companies.  

    The CEO makes about 400x what I make as an employee who has been there all that time.

    This is the story of the whole country, writ small.

    •  Highly recommended (4.00 / 26)

      I almost always recommend your diaries, but this one seems especially important to flag.

      France actually has an advantage in this respect, in that the most prestigious universities in the country are ALL engineering schools, so we're still cranking lots of (good) engineers, as the best students go there - and even in banking you thus have people with science backgrounds.

      The trends you mention are at work as well here in France (people like me go to work in banking) but they are less strong, for a simple reason - pay is determined more by your diploma than by the job you do. It has its disadvantages, but at least it doesn't skew work choices towards finance so much.

      •  Thanks (4.00 / 11)

        When I get ambitious, I'm going to dig up graduation rates in science and engineering over the last few decades and for as many countries as I can find data.  I'm willing to bet that economic growth as expressed by improvement in median income is closely related to the number of engineers and scientists going into the work force.
        •  I can tell you right now that it's down in the US (4.00 / 13)

          And that's of grave concern to the scientific community. We're most certainly NOT raisng the next crops of scientists very well.  And to make matters worse, the federal government is chasing away many of those valuable boomer scientists by the inhospitable climate for real science they've created.  Finally it would appear that the Bushies don't care that they've done that -- they only care that the science conforms to their beliefs.

          I care deeply about this issue having worked for an org that cares very deeply about this. Alas Bush's caring indifference led to a dumping of my program after a 50 year relationship with a particular fed agency.  Oh well.  Am madly scanning internal job postings, there might be two I can interview for and all my friends are giving my good advice.

          •  nature scientists (4.00 / 5)

            Good luck on your job search.

            Great Diary. Science in natural resources is also getting dumbed down, or the jobs are being filled by business managers, not scientists. A lot of the field work / data gathering is outsourced anyway, so there is less need to hire actual biologists, archaeologists, hydrologists in agencies like the Forest Service or BLM.

            •  Thanks! Yep it's not just engineers.... (4.00 / 5)

              SIGH.  My office works with a lot of government agencies.  Right now the only ones flush with money are the ones doing research in bioweapons.  Just about everything else has faced budget cuts in the last few years.  Even traditional "guns" (versus "butter") programs have been hurting for money as the money is going to you-know-where.

              This issue is not as glamorous or easily understood but it's the seed corn for the next generations. It's really, really vital!

        •  It might be interesting to include (4.00 / 4)

          data on the sexes entering engineering as well.  Living in a university town, the number of women wearing engineering jackets has grown considerably.

          How will this affect the future engineering workforce?  I do not know what the percentage of women who leave the workforce to raise children is, but this too would likely have an impact on the numbers.  The numbers of students may not necessarily be the same number as future workers available.

          "If you tolerate this, then your children will be next." - Manic Street Preachers -7.38, -7.59

          by Dave Brown on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 06:04:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Women engineers (4.00 / 5)

            I mentioned before that the (warning: coal mining) company I work for offers a full ride scholarship for women interested in mining engineering.  Often -- even very recently -- there are slots in this scholarship that go unclaimed.

            If anyone has interest, email me and I'll forward the information.

          •  Much hard work has been done to attract women (none / 0)

            There are many organizations working hard to attact women and minorities to engineering.  Alas most only go so far as a B.S. because (at least in the salad days) the money in industry was far too good to pass up.  So there's a dearth of women and minorities in research and teaching.
          •  um...careful... (none / 1)

            you may not have "meant it that way," but this comment appears to come from the same mindset that kept women out of professional schools and jobs in this country well into the last century -- i can't waste this slot on you, you're not serious about this career, you're just going to leave to have babies, we need a man 'cuz they never make family a priority...etc.
            if people are entering the field and leaving, that is a problem for the field's numbers.  [significantly mitigated if the people come back in a few years, which the last time i checked was still the most popular option among professional American women who take leave to have a baby]. but if the pool of people for whom the field is an option has grown to include an add'l 51% of the population over  the last couple generations, isn't that good for the field's numbers?
            again, i don't mean this as a personal attack, i just want to note potential implications and misuses of the comment.

            www.beyondmarriage.org

            by decafdyke on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 06:56:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I totally didn't mean it that way (none / 0)

              and I was worried that it might be misconstrued.  It's just that a higher percentage of women drop out of the workforce than men, and I was wondering how a higher number of women in scientific fields would affect the numbers of future scientists.

              I don't think that because people have a choice in staying home, it should disqualify them from whatever they want to study.  Everyone should get the best education in whatever field they want, regardless of sex or future professional plans.

              Thanks for giving me the opportunity to explain myself.

              "If you tolerate this, then your children will be next." - Manic Street Preachers -7.38, -7.59

              by Dave Brown on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 08:36:53 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Important issues you've raised- (4.00 / 2)

              and worthy of a diary all it's own.  
              i can't waste this slot on you, you're not serious about this career, you're just going to leave to have babies, we need a man 'cuz they never make family a priority...

              That's the workplace Catch-22 for us all - if you have babies or make family a priority then you're not serious about your career.  And women (sorry, but biology is destiny until men become able to gestate and lactate) are automatically in the line of fire.

              In highly technical fields (and probably academia as well - I'm in tech and can't speak to it), just a 2 year break can be crippling to your career. If you're not there to keep on top of rapidly changing technologies or if you're not publishing, you will be at a significant disadvantage.  This plays out in myriad negative ways downstream in your life. Count on fewer opportunities for advancement or tenure because you're now 'behind' in your field compared to those who didn't leave(or perceived that way - especially by the MBA management-types who never really understood what it was you do). And, further into the future, you will have fewer dollars and years of credit going towards your pension and retirement funds(eg, 401k).  Don't get me started on the compromises more and more of us face to keep affordable health care coverage for our families, either...

              I lived all of this when I had my son in 1981.   While maternity leave,etc, is certainly better accepted and available now, as long as family/child issues are primarily perceived as women's issues, we're sunk.  Until men take breaks in their careers to take care of their children to the extent that women do, and until the workplace becomes less hostile to families(yet another diary topic!), we will keep fighting this battle over and over and over again.

              Comfort the afflicted. Afflict the comfortable.

              by FindingMyVoice on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 08:47:08 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  In the long run (4.00 / 5)

          it will be science, basic fundamental research, that will determine the quality of life for the great majority of people in a country.  America is bound by its free market mythology and thinks that all you need are tax cuts and the scientific knowledge to keep the economy growing will just materialize.  

          Combine that with a long history of popular anti-intellectualism and the slavish personality cult of the "big man" of business (Carnegie, Rockefeller, Gates, etc...) and you've got a recipe for disproportionately rewarding the executive class and pissing on everybody else.  You've also got a recipe for long term stagnation and decline as more reality-friendly nations get on with the only "business" that ultimately matters, the business of dealing with physical universe.

          Then did he raise on high the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, saying, "Bless this, O Lord, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy."

          by Event Horizon on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 06:57:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Gates? (4.00 / 3)

            Although very few in software would consider Gates to be much of an engineer, isn't that what he is in the popular imagination? A lot more kids went into the CS track in hopes of being another Gates than into an MBA.

            Had a relative who was educated as an engineer but became an executive. I can remember him back in the 70s, when MBAs were becoming the thing, mentioning how he'd go out of his way to avoid hiring anyone with an MBA - considered it worse than worthless, since they'd come in thinking they knew business better than anybody, when in fact they had but the scantist clue.

            Yet it seems now corporations actually like that degree. Why??

            Then again, I have a liberal arts degree and work in computer science - I'm really against "trade school" tracks for anyone but lawyers, physicians, and auto mechanics. Real minds know how to learn, and do better by looking fresh at the world than being trained in some narrow outlook. (Unreal minds like myself, even moreso.)

            •  Gates (4.00 / 2)

              Is Gates worshipped for his l33t 5k1llz or his business acumen though?  As I see it, Gates is the only kind of engineer or scientist that current mythology in this country values.  He starts out as a rich boy to begin with and learns enough tech stuff to be dangerous.  He quickly manages to wriggle as far away from actual technical work as possible and becomes a wheeler dealer.  A modern day Horatio Alger with a CRT.  I think a lot of what people like about Gates is actually that he managed to get into a position where he could exploit all those smart kids with nerd glasses who had to work for him.  It's still a land-grab mentality.  Get into position where you can monopolize something and dominate others.  The "land" is more abstract now and consists of "intellectual property".  The problem is that you see little respect for the people who actually create this new land.  Everybody wants to be a landlord.  No one wants to work the land.  We had a system like this back in the middle ages, I think ;)

              Then did he raise on high the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, saying, "Bless this, O Lord, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy."

              by Event Horizon on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 07:55:40 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Gates was elected to the NAE back in the 90s (none / 1)

              Not as high profile as some other NAE (National Academy of Engineering) CEOs but he gets the issues at hand IMO and for all his robber baron ways, apparently does have a conscience <g>.
              •  m a skeptic (none / 0)

                [Gates] apparently does have a conscience

                That remains to be seen.  If I was worth $50 billion, I'd surely have spent at least $49 billion of it to reduce the suffering of the most miserable on our planet.  (And I'm certainly no saint.)  Gates has given away what, less than a billion so far?  We'll see what he does with the rest...

          •  Them As Have the Gold Make the Rules (4.00 / 2)

            Why do CEOs make 300x or more than those doing the work?  Here's two more reasons:
            (1) Lack of any reward for long term planning;
            (2) Groupthink

            There's an old joke about "long term planning on Wall Street means next quarterly report."  Outsourcing everything to India/China means they'll make their gazillion dollar bonuses and can exercise their "golden parachutes" in a few years.  Earning large salaries while running a company into the ground has gotten quite popular lately.  Anyone seen any reports of salary cuts for upper management at General Motors - or any of their executives fired ior demoted for poor long-term planning?  

            Groupthink in executive board compensation committees remains the rule rather than the exception.  Many directors and top executives in large companies live in their respective company's version of George W Bush's Bubble World. The larger the company, the less its top management tends to remain connected to reality. Dissenters are purged, sycophants are promoted.  

            In the long term, of course, US mega-companies will either move their management overseas, or fail as new overseas competitors with lower executive salaries.  The overseas companies will, of course, eventually fall into the same "bloated executive compensation" trap and the cycle will repeat somewhere else.

            As for the US?  There was once a center of learning and scientific achievement known worldwide for its weapons technology.  Unfortunately, a bunch of religious fanatics took over the various Universities and replaces science with religion.  Nothing could be taught except the "Good Book."  Today, Syria's Damascus is just another city and Damascus Steel is just a historical curiosity.

          •  Pancakes (none / 0)

            Give Bill Gates some credit.

            He is an author of one technical paper with Christos Papadimitriou (one of the GREATEST CS theory researchers ever).

            Of course, the topic of the paper is pancake flipping... not exactly the stuff that billion dollar companies and operating systems are built from.

            Here's a reference for those of you who want to read the paper:

            [GP] Gates W.H.; Papadimitriou, C.H. Bounds for sorting by prefix reversal. Discrete Math. 27 (1979), 47--57.

        •  Look for this fact (4.00 / 3)

          A few years ago, a prominent engineering academic made a statement that I haven't been able to track down...

          He said that of high school gradutes, only 15% had taken the right courses to even be eligible to apply to a university engineering school. Forget about grades, most high school graduates are locked out before they begin.

          Somewhere, somehow, we need to get a blog or thread going on ways to remedy the problem. I have some practical ideas (I am actually working on some programs at my university). I'm sure many of the respondents to this thread have equally good or better ones - but there is no focal point for discussion of the problem.

          -2.38 -4.87: Maturity - Doing what you know is right even though you were told to do it.

          by grapes on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 07:26:53 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  another demographic angle on this - one tale (4.00 / 2)

          I'm a boomer woman engineer and benefitted both from the push for science education in K-12 after Sputnik as well as all the new opportunities opening up for women in higher education.  My mom was a nurse and my dad was a chemist.  From my point of view, going into a male dominated profession was definitely the way to go.  I had a strong "social good" ethic and decided I could both be an engineer (good pay) and contribute to society (work on air pollution).  That's what I've done and I'm very happy with how things have turned out.  However, both my daughters took a look at the office enviros of their parents (both engineers) and were repulsed (I'm being honest here).  One studied micro-biology and has decided to teach kids (and will probably move into education policy later on) the other studied politics and is headed in the NGO direction.  Money isn't that important to them.  They see the coorporate-sector world of their father and the government-sector world of their mom and want something more connected on a personal level.  Perhaps being raised in Berkeley is a factor.

          try habitat restoration - good for you, good for all

          by jps on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 09:01:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  This is a no-brainer (4.00 / 2)

          Questions, from one of those pesky guys out there without a brain:  

          1.  India is turning out 4x as many engineers.  Don't they have about 4x as many people as the United States?  And doesn't China as well?  Aren't some of these numbers driven by demographics, not raw brain power?  And don't they have 4x as much need (or more, given their historical underdevelopment)for infrastructure given their burgeoning population?

          2.  We graduate 11% engineers in the U.S., the rest of the world 23%.  But what percentage of the population goes to college abroad compared to the U.S.?  If they have a much lower rate of college graduates, they would naturally produce a higher percentage of technically skilled graduates.  I mean, who has the means to study ethno-musicology in India?

          3. Hasn't this wonderful abundance of engineers and scientists that America produced since the end of WW II helped to contribute to the ecological imbalance which now threatens the entire planet and life as we know it--from nuclear weapons to fossil fuel extraction to pollution and global warming?  And tell me, just how do you think these well-meanining engineers and scientists will be able to guide their inspired thinking into productive, useful technologies that benefit a majority of people and are used for beneficent ends?  Especially given the corporate hegemony that makes all things in service of the bottom line and politics?

          4.  Doesn't the internet, and especially web-sites in particular, but also journalism have a bias toward "the sky if falling kind of reportage".  I mean, if I wrote that it's a nice cold morning here in Minneapolis and a beautiful light snow is falling and I had a great night last night with my friends exchanging pot-latch gifts, and our kids are getting older and another year is about to dawn and I'm sure looking forward to how things will turn out--if anyone wrote that--what attention would it attract on Dailykos or anywhere on the web?

          Not to be too critical, Devilstower, but we are drawn toward the huge, catclysmic, muckracking biggest scandal of all time, look how bad the world is now kind of story and this fits the bill.  

          Life goes on.  Hold your children.  Love them. Make a pot of soup.  Sit together and laugh.  Remember that life may, in fact, be more about the spiritual than the material.  

          And, if none of that sounds very comforting to you, just remember: that's what they are doing all over in India and China today.  

          Help new teachers to grow and love their work at www.newteachernetwork.net

          by Mi Corazon on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 10:50:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I would hope that French bankers (none / 0)

        along with their science backgrounds have solid backgrounds in mathematics.

        Just sayin'.  ;-)

        White woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (Endorsed 10/07)

        by Glinda on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 08:27:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It's too late for us, save yourselves (none / 0)

        Seriously, there's no chance that the present setup is ever going to give scientists or engineers higher salaries or even more prestige.  In most large corporations, the employee evaluation criteria have been gradually changed to favor MBA type skills. It's more important to do meetings well than have any technical skills.

        The lack of engineers may or may not be a problem (I think it will be a catastrophe) but it's obvious that the U.S. is going to try to get by on managers and marketing.

    •  Dumbing of America (4.00 / 21)

      This is an important message, DT.  It's one that the Dems ought to run with.  You're a writer--how about doing a book on the subject that would be published in early 2008?

      I understand that in India the education system is well-subsidized and to get into the best tech and science schools you face very stiff competition.  The cost of grad school in the US today is beyond the reach of most people, no matter how bright.  Just as the US should fund a Manhattan Project for energy to keep us from plunging into a third-world has-been, so should we also, as you suggest, consider intelligence a resource that needs serious attention.

      Unfortunately this society has embraced entertainment instead of substance. Jobs in the computer game, TV, and film industries pay tremendously better than science and engineering or education.

      It's really scary to think that the whole nation, starting at the top, is being run by MBAs instead of people with hands-on knowledge in a concrete subject.  But our national CEO managed to ignore immense amounts of data --including from national laboratories--indicating that Iraq lacked nuclear capability.

      Shirley Ann Jackson, whose personal story of achievement is extraordinary, is President of the American Association for the Advancement of Science:

      Another profound but subtle threat to national security is the aging of the science and engineering workforce and the challenge of replacing retiring professionals at a time when young people are less interested in these fields. In part because of restrictive immigration policies imposed after the terror attacks of 11 September 2001, the number of foreign science and engineering students and workers is down sharply; at the same time, countries such as China, Taiwan and South Korea are dramatically increasing their investment and opportunities for aspiring scientists.

      Individually, each of these factors would be "problematic," Jackson said. "In combination, they could be devastating."

      As one key to the solution, she urged that the United States nurture and recruit young scientists and engineers from every cultural group and class. She cited two examples from Princeton, N.J.: The Institute for Advanced Study recruited Jewish scientists, including Albert Einstein, who were fleeing Nazi Germany in the 1930s and '40s; and Princeton University's employment of John Nash, the Nobel laureate in economics who pioneered game theory.

      Nash had suffered debilitating schizophrenia early in his career, but after many years, made a remarkable recovery. His story has been documented in the book "A Beautiful Mind" and in a subsequent movie by the same name.

      "Nash's story," Jackson said, "is filled with individuals and institutions which accepted his unique diversity, and made every effort to enable him to continue to work.

      "Talent resides in many places-sometimes unappreciated or under-appreciated," she continued. "The very group or individual a society may ignore or neglect may be the very group or individual which makes the greatest discoveries or achieves the greatest innovations. We have made such mistakes in the past. We should not make them again."

      She also has some strong words about the dumbing down of information--a major project of the Bush administration.  But the internet has turned out to be a great platform for hysteria generated by partial facts or outright misinformation.  When people indiscriminately select "facts" from activist and lobbyist websites to support a faith-based ideology on the left or right, it's clear that those folks have not been subjected to the principles of the scientific method.  They don't know to question whether the source is a reliable one and embrace long-ago discredited studies, etc.

      The rise of round-the-clock news media and talk shows, the growth of think tanks, the increasing sophistication of marketing and the dawn of the Internet have combined to turn the marketplace of ideas into a storm of conflicting and confusing voices.

      "What happens when the market place is populated with self-proclaimed experts?" Jackson asked. "When we have instantly available authorities to support every view? The result is the devaluing of information, and even the devaluing of science. This trend threatens the concept of the scientist as the dispassionate, objective voice of reason-and, also, the authoritative role of science in helping to shape sound public policy."

      I'm quite sure that her thoughts on self-appointed experts do not apply to anyone on this blog...except people who disagree with me. ;)

      The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

      by Plan9 on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 06:59:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Democrats (4.00 / 6)

        We Democrats have a schizoid approach here, because we in a largely-unspoken way identify as the party of the stupid. From the perspective of those on the outside — of Republicans and independents — Democrats are the party that want to make it possible for everyone to succeed just about equally regardless of effort, education, merit, or attainment. So on the one hand they hear Democrats saying, "Education is so important. We must improve it. We must spend more money on it." On the other hand they see Democrats seemingly wanting to construct a world in which educational (and other) achievement won't be rewarded, because even those who don't achieve will receive equivalent rewards.

        This diary is important and true. The constant stream of distribution-of-wealth diaries are important and true. But between them the Democratic image is in a bind. Meanwhile most of the actual increase in primary and secondary education funding goes towards special ed (thanks to the Democrats) and improving average test scores (thanks to the Republicans), neither of which has a thing to do with improving the education of the kids with the real potential to do important engineering or science, which leaves us at a distinct loss for scientists and engineers — so companies go abroad to hire them where they can find them. And both these policies make the truly bright kids even scarcer, so the children of the current management class, via their private schools and enrichment programs, become more worth the "absurd" compensation some of their parents are getting, when their turn comes.

        •  Sorry (4.00 / 2)

          There is no shortage of scientists and engineers.
          There is a shortage of U.S. enterprises to employ them in activities commensurate with their skill and experience at pay levels that justify the investment for preparation and the risk of the career. Why spend a decade in school, go into debt, forgo income, and sit for state board and licensing exams when at the end you are treated as an at-will employee and "managed" by sales types? And there is always a technical type from a foreign country who is ecstatic to have your job at less than half your salaray in exchange for the opportunity to bring 7 of his extended family into the country.

          Of all my friends and colleagues in science and engineering, from the very top schools, in the past 15 years since graduation...well, the vast majority left their technical fields in disgust, or never entered them after graduation. More than a few went to Wall Street or Chicago and retired before 35 with literally millions.

          My last position? A workgroup of 11 PhD's with 10 - 20 years experience each. The manager was a liberal arts major B.A., with an Internet MBA. This manager insisted on participating in work group meetings on arcane technical topics. It was embarassing.

          •  Mediocrity (none / 0)

            Your comments ring so true that it hurts.

            Some of my closest colleagues and I realized about ten years ago that we were faced with the problem of a workplace that valued mediocrity and actually attacked groups of highly intelligent, tough engineer-types.  You can guess the reasons why.

            One situation that influenced me most in my career, unfortunately, was when I finally worked with a group of people that "got it."  The group was formed by a few core members, one visionary who could do both the science and the sale of ideas, and other members that we brought in as we grew.  At the top level was a "team of peers" and we created a meritocracy atmosphere that nurtured technical types of workers.  We accomplished a lot - more than other rival groups and in the end they  became so intimidated that they destroyed it.  They weren't even smart enough to usurp it, they destroyed it.

            The leader of the group was targeted and eventually brought down by his immediate superiors, in a smear campaign, aided by peers who were simply threatened and envious.  They were successful.  They cut off the head (outright fired him, and paid him a lot of severance $ and stock) and got rid of him.  Many left in disgust, including me, and the rest of the group was dismantled, piece by piece, and then they set about working toward their goal of erasing any trace of it.  They got funding to completely redo some of the systems we put in place too, and spent millions.  The last I heard, the most key systems were never really completed, and a lot of outsourcing was going on.  

            It was disillusioning, to say the least.  At that point I stopped climbing the ladder.  I had climbed to a level high enough to realize that when I looked around, I was certain I didn't like what I saw.  I started doing more independent work.  Then the dot com boom hit with force and first things got better, then they got worse as the marketing and MBA type folks moved in and started spending huge amounts of money on I don't know what.  Everyone who could spell HTML got a job from all sorts of other non-technical fields.  My last corporate-America job ended up in layoff, after the higher levels of management wasted untold $ and about a year of precious time fighting over who would "own" the new internet line of business.  By the the time they fought it out it was too late.  All the while they had talent sitting there largely being wasted.  But oh, they threw some really cool off-site meetings.  A big percentage of us lost our jobs and a big opportunity was lost because of it.

            "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." --Samuel Johnson

            by joanneleon on Sun Dec 11, 2005 at 06:56:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Smartest guy I ever met (none / 1)

              Good friend of mine, double major EE and CS, PhD top school in the freaking world. Helicopter picked him up to fly him to Company X for an interview. He gave a presentation on the new chip he did for this dissertation. When he was done, they asked him, who was on his team? He did not understand. He designed the chip himself, from the semiconductor physics, new architecture, software, fabricated it...he did it all himself. Very personable guy. Eventually he made head of a large project, $250 million budget. He realized several months in it was a no-go, the market was not there and there was trouble with the technology. He told this to #1 and #2 at Company X. They ignored him and increased the budget. He kept telling them, mistake, mistake. For two more years. It died, the company stock hovered in the single digits, they laid him off. He is no longer in the field. This is what MBA-City and Lawyer-World do with the smartest people in the world. Not making this up.
      •  Wow (none / 1)

        That comment was better than the diary.

        Though I've done a lot of fiction novels, and even more articles, I've never done a nonfiction book.  My first experience with such is what's going on right now with the Science Friday book project over at Yearly Kos.  

        Maybe we can imitate that process and drag in more of the interested science and education kossacks to craft another volume.

        •  Count me in (4.00 / 7)

          .. if anyone will have me.

          My credentials:

          1. I am currently working to introduce a new minor at our university that is designed to provide hardcore technical exposure to non-engineers. We propose to take university undergraduates (4yr land grant U) over to our local community college and give them a 3 semester course hands-on grounding in basic electronics (DC, AC, solid state, digital), followed by a summer workshop with local companies. We plan to play down the math, exploit the CC's wonderful lab and drill home ideas like systems theory, systematic troubleshooting, non-linear effects, etc.

          Amazingly, we just got the idea past our engineering college and its now going to the university curriculum committee - with good prospects.

          2. I own a company next to the university that exclusively hires students. We supply high-tech training materials to Fortune 500 companies. We have been throwing non-engineers in the technical deep end of the pool for about 7 years now - and guess what - most of them can swim. We have 'graduated about 25 students and every one got a great job.

          The largest pool of high quality, low cost labor on the continent is sitting in our undergraduate 4yr programs. Wendy's and the GAP know that, why don't our corporations.

          Bottom line:

          You don't raise people up by lowering the bar. You help them raise themselves up by constructing a ladder with the rungs real close together and encourage, cajole or whip their ass up the ladder.

          For better or worse, that's the kind of Democrat that I am.

          -2.38 -4.87: Maturity - Doing what you know is right even though you were told to do it.

          by grapes on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 07:40:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Far more qualified than I (none / 0)

            We need to think of the right way to approach this.  Does it need an "Energize America" style effort to work through a community-based message and plan, or as Plan 9 suggests, would a more traditional book be a better way to get the issue in front of eyeballs at election time.

            Either way, I think you'd be a great addition to the effort.

            •  my email is now in my profile (4.00 / 5)

              Unfortunately, it is a lot easier to analyze the problem and talk about the dire consequences than to find a solution - or even partial solutions.

              But the comment that started this thread is dead on. Democrats have let themselves be seen as enablers of this problem. I don't think that is right - but the perception persists and I can understand why.

              IMHO, what Democrats should stand for is the proposition that we don't give up on people. We won't water down expectations, but we'll keep offering help and second and third chances as long as someone has the guts to keep trying.

              One positive note. The adult education ethic in North America is stronger than anywhere else in the world. If you don't get into a great college out of high school in Europe or Asia - you're damaged goods for the rest of your life. Here, we admire the waistrel that reforms at age 30, dries out, goes back to school and busts their butt.

              That is something we can build on.

              A lot of Republicans I meet (and I am in the reddest of red states) want to put high demands (brutal pass or fail) on everyone else's kids - but never their own. Their Johnny and Suzie just need a little bit more nurturing and understanding. Can they do a makeup? Can you give them an extension? How dare you give them a D?

              At least they're unhypocritical about being hypocrites.

              -2.38 -4.87: Maturity - Doing what you know is right even though you were told to do it.

              by grapes on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 08:34:53 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Strategies for training (none / 1)

                I read an interesting column a few years back about different strategies for training.  In most businesses, when a new computer/phone/whatever system is introduced, training is necessary to get the existing workforce up to speed.  And there is no "failed" option - everyone has to be brought to a minimum level of competence.  Sure, some people know how to work the new system before the walk in the door of the training seminar.  Some people need remedial work.  Maybe the CEO will need private tutoring.  But everyone is trained.

                Compare that to how we educate our young.  Follow the aforementioned "brutal pass or fail" system which is so often touted by repubs, and you wind up with lost opportunities in the shape of people who are pretty much condemned to a life of mindless work and diminishing opportunity.  Yeah, some people may not have the skills to be engineers, or doctors, or scientists, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't get the training necessary to lead a productive and rewarding life in our economy.

                Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

                by Shadan7 on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 09:43:26 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Strange ... (none / 1)

                  Wingnuts don't believe in Darwinian selection - except that they adore applying it to everyone else's kids.

                  It doesn't get any uglier than that!

                  -2.38 -4.87: Maturity - Doing what you know is right even though you were told to do it.

                  by grapes on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 10:41:41 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  "Social Darwinism"... (none / 0)

                    is the only kind of Darwinism these clowns understand.  Which makes sense, given that it is a 100 year-old, discredited, perverted form of the idea of 'survival of the fittest'.  Fits right up there with the Calvinist creedo that your worldly wealth is a reflection of your spiritual health.

                    Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

                    by Shadan7 on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 12:05:26 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Most of the 'condemned' ... (4.00 / 2)

                  are not stupid. And most are not lazy. They just took a wrong turn early in the race.

                  Once you get behind, its a bitch to catch up.

                  I'll say it again. Democrats should be the party that never gives up on people. We won't help them cheat or do a Rosie Ruiz (old marathon race reference), but we can be counted on to help them when they are ready to be helped.

                  -2.38 -4.87: Maturity - Doing what you know is right even though you were told to do it.

                  by grapes on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 01:23:55 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Do both! (none / 1)

              Why can't there be a book--it doesn't have to be a thick one--that can be distributed virally? Not everybody blogs--particularly older people, who are still book-oriented and who vote. The project could be collaborative--but it might go faster if there was a head writer/editor.  Your background in fiction will assure an interesting narrative rather than a dull policy manual.  

              Why can't such a book interface with the Energize project? In case no one has noticed, Blogmaster of the Universe Kos HAS WRITTEN A BOOK.

              You can't energize America if you do not have the scientific brain power working on an array of solutions to energy problems and social and public health issues associated with energy production.  

              It makes good business sense as well--although I am not an MBA, so how would I know?

              Companies like Toyota and Honda locate in the US and then find out that the locals--high school grads--can't read or write or ad.  So the companies have to set up education programs in order to have competent staff.  So Canada, which evidently still believes in investing in the next generation, becomes a better choice the next time.  (And there is also that tiny matter of the Canadian govt. underwriting health care instead of employers.)

              The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

              by Plan9 on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 08:58:33 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I hate to be negative (none / 0)

              but you said it yourself.  If there were well-paid jobs the problem would solve itself.  Convincing people to do technical studies when there is no future in it seems somewhat cruel.
          •  My sour grapes... (none / 0)

            You don't raise people up by lowering the bar.

            True, but then again, by raising people up you're also raising the level of mediocrity. :)

          •  seconded (none / 0)


            You don't raise people up by lowering the bar. You help them raise themselves up by constructing a ladder with the rungs real close together and encourage, cajole or whip their ass up the ladder.

            Agreed. Agreed. Agreed.

            I work as a Teaching Assistant in an engineering discipline, and this is exactly how to do it. My basic approach:

            1. Clear and concise lectures
            2. No sympathy/BS
            3. Grade like a tyrant!

            Then I get... "Oh Mr. TA you grade so hard. I think I deserve more partial credit."

            And my response:

            "My best friend from undergrad. went directly to Raytheon after graduation. He write software that will go into an airplane. If the airplane flies for 45 minutes and then crashes, killing all aboard, does he get partial credit for those first 45 minutes?"

            or

            "In 1993, Intel released the Pentium, which had a major flaw--one row of a ROM table used for long division was missing. Intel recalled the entire line and fixed the bug. This was a MAJOR financial disaster for the company. So, do then engineers who designed a complete chip minus one line in a ROM table get partial credit?"

            ---

            I don't owe anyone an "A"; they better earn it!

            •  unscientific, out of my ass observation (none / 1)

              Its been my entirely subjective, annectdotal and unscientific observation that liberal and progressive friends are a lot more demanding of their OWN kids than they are of other people's kids. A lot of Wingnuts I know are the opposite.

              Must be those vaunted family values.

              -2.38 -4.87: Maturity - Doing what you know is right even though you were told to do it.

              by grapes on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 04:23:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  FYI: statistics (none / 0)

          http://www.dailykos.com/...

          About the decline in the number of scientists and engineers in the workplace from
          a post I made to DarkSyde's most recent Science Friday diary.  The numbers are pretty sobering.

          The IPCC predicts average global temperatures to rise enough by 2050 to put 20-30% of all species at risk for extinction.

          by Plan9 on Sun Dec 11, 2005 at 04:50:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  And how is your... (4.00 / 3)

      ...company doing with those changes?

      My experience with the change from technically-grounded management to "professional managers" is that what the company gains in financial skills (access to investment money, etc.) and slick marketing, they more than lose in lowered product quality, huge consulting expenses, and a customer base that drifts away over time.

      My favorite experience was working at a company that did highly specialized typesetting for major newspapers. My boss, who knew more about this than just about anyone, was replaced by a middle manager from International Harvester. What were his qualifications? An MBA, plus he'd "managed groups of similar size."

      Fortunately, I left before the lawsuits started. Something about not delivering a working product after being paid tens of millions of dollars, forcing the newspaper to sell itself to a chain. (This was being done on DEC minicomputers, so it was a while ago.)

      "That which I am writing about so tediously may be obvious to someone whose mind is less decrepit." - Ludwig Wittgenstein

      by Mad Dog Rackham on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 08:20:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  you get what you pay for (none / 1)

      I bypassed several years of making 50K to go to grad school to make 10K to 18K at the end teaching and consulting. I found offers when I got a PhD that paid 60K. Silly me. After putting myself through school on loans, work, and scholarships for good grades, and now after 10 years experience in science and engineering development, I am now paid approximately twice in gross figures what a technician with a 2-year technical degree can earn. I have no more job security and no less. I like what I do much better, but if you want to live and die by the market, it cuts both ways, oh great Corporation. Smart people need to get paid commensurate with their investment in getting trained and ready. In the US, it costs say 100 on an index scale. If you then want to pay 25, which is what it cost a foreign student to get the same training in another country, but then they come to the US, the people in the US are at an economic disadvantage. The alleged shortage of technical people is the shortage who are willing to accept lower pay. I bet there is a tremendous shortage of cardiologists who will work for $15 an hour.
    •  Timely article on NYTimes: (none / 0)

      One good thing is that the richest man in the world was, at least once, a programmer.

      Prize in Indian Talent Search Is a Year on Bill Gates's Team

      BANGALORE, India, Dec. 9 - Bill Gates, the chairman of Microsoft, announced a contest Friday to identify promising software students in India, offering as top prize an internship with his technical team for a year.

      The contest comes amid another in India: the race between low-cost, open-source software and proprietary software, like Microsoft's Windows. The open-source movement, which promotes the Linux operating system, is finding increasing favor over proprietary systems among users and software developers in India.

      Addressing 5,000 developers gathered at the Palace Grounds here Friday, Mr. Gates said the nationwide talent hunt, called "Code4Bill," would offer the winner an opportunity to study Microsoft's product development and innovations.

      Mr. Gates said the contest would show the high quality of work being done in India. "Some of the best commercial work is happening right here," he said to cheers from the gathered crowd.

      Mr. Gates is something of a celebrity in India, where technology outsourcing has provided well-paid jobs and changed the fortunes of thousands of middle-class Indians. But companies like Microsoft worry that many developers are joining the open-source movement.

      Since Mr. Gates last visited India in 2002, Linux has found increasing favor not just among local governments like those in neighboring Maharashtra state, but also at the National Stock Exchange in Mumbai and at Hindustan Lever, the country's biggest consumer products company, also based in Mumbai. India, with its one billion people, is a potentially huge market, but it needs inexpensive computers and software.

      Supporters of open-source software say Microsoft has made large donations of its software to Indian government offices to "hook" them on its products. But at the Palace Grounds, most of the young developers gathered to see Mr. Gates were clearly in awe of him.

      "I want to be like him. I am a huge admirer," said 24-year old Naveen Rao, a development engineer with the outsourcing company Aditi Technologies.

      On his current visit, Mr. Gates has left no doubt of India's importance in Microsoft's business plans. He announced a $1.7 billion investment in India over the next four years. About half of that would go to Microsoft's research and development center in Hyderabad in southern India, its biggest outside its headquarters in Redmond, Wash.

      The investment will also help intensify Microsoft's research to create low-cost computing systems.

      The Code4Bill contest will begin in January and last eight months. Twenty finalists will receive internships with Microsoft India before a final winner is selected to join Mr. Gates's own team.

      Also interesting is the threat they see of Open Source. Open Source mainly affects information-based industries, but the gist of it is that success and happiness may not always be measured in fractions of CEO pay.

      You can't be on the team, if you're not in the choir. Sorry.

      by peeder on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 02:08:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Very Highly Recommended!! (4.00 / 4)

    Bravo...This is top notch!  

    explain how letting gays marry will directly affect your own heterosexual relationship?

    by bluestatesam on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 05:12:18 AM PDT

  •  Good stuff. (4.00 / 3)

    "Would you buy this for a quarter?"
    <inside joke>

    -6.88/-5.64 * We won! We won!.... Now back on your heads.

    by John West on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 05:32:28 AM PDT

  •  Excellent Diary (4.00 / 19)

    You left out one key point though.  We make teaching so unattractive as a career, with low salaries, constant teacher bashing, and by tying the hands of good teachers behind their backs with constant "testing",  that those who train in science and math go into industry.  They have other options, so why should they put up with the crap they get in the public school systems.  Many wonderful, talented people choose teaching, but unfortunately at the elementary level too many of them are science and math phobic.  This attitude is passed subtly and not so subtly to our children, and, by the time they reach Jr. High the damage is done.

    Add to that phenomenon, the "smart kids need AP science problem", and you create a brain drain in our own school systems.  What is my problem with AP science you ask? I know many AP science teachers, they are smart, dedicated, well-trained and well-meaning.  Unfortunately, I have come to believe that what many of them do is educationally unsound.  They march their high school students through first year college text books (Campbell in Biology), focus on preparation for the AP test- memorize, memorize, memorize, and leave out the beauty of science as a process.  Most (NOT ALL) of these kids are still concrete thinkers, they memorize facts that they are incapable of truly understanding, so they determine that science is dull and incomprehensible.  They get good scores on their AP exams and go to college to major in Business.

    Sorry for the long post.

    •  I hear you (4.00 / 10)

      My wife teaches middle school science.  Besides the fact that she's faced 16 years of 6th, 7th, and 8th graders -- which puts her on the fast track for sainthood -- she's also had to deal with ridiculous changes mandated by science illiterate school boards and state agencies.  

      To get to this job, she gave up a spot as an executive VP at a computer firm, went back to school, and took a huge cut in salary.  She's just one of those people -- like the kids who go into science no matter what kind of money is waved at them -- who decided this is what she was going to do.  Her mother, grandmother, and sister are all teachers.  It must be genetic.

      I don't know what to think about the AP classes.  I know I took them myself, as did my son -- mixed results.  At my wife's level, I wish there were remedial and advanced science classes as there are in English and math.  The fact that science is all one class means that she faces from pre-K to college level kids six times a day.  Very difficult to keep the top performing kids interested while holding onto the kids who literally can't read a word.  All too often, because there is no "special" class, science is where her school sends kids for "socilization."  For older kids, this might work, but it's difficult to get 12 year olds to "peer tutor," especially when their class is only 40 minutes long.

      •  Proud to be a science major. (none / 0)

          I'm certain that I would not be a biology major today, if it weren't for the AP biology and chemistry classes I had taken in high school.  I got credit for them in college, and now it will take less time for me to get a bachelor's in biology.  Though you are mostly right, almost everyone from my graduating class has gone into business or language/liberal arts, even the ones who successfully completed those AP classes with me.
      •  Your wife is a saint (4.00 / 7)

        I have friends that teach HS biology and I don't know how they do it, middle school must be impossible.
        My problem is not with AP science per se, it is with a Lake Wobegon society that says all kids are ready and able to complete AP courses at 16 and 17.  Perfectly bright kids may be intellectually unprepared for AP courses at that age.  These kids are concrete thinkers and we are asking them to memorize cellular and molecular processes that they just can't understand.  These courses often focus at the cellular and molecular level and neglect the ecology and natural history that the kids would understand (and find really exciting).  We should use the hooks that we have, then as they develop abstract thinking abilities, present them with cellular processes using the framework that we have already built.  At the college level, I start with the carbon cycle- photosynthesis and respiration seem more relevant to the students if they see where they fit into a global framework.  HS kids can memorize the steps of cellular respiration and never realize it is related to their need to breath.

        My other concern with HS education is the lack of time and resources for meaningful laboratory experiences.  Block scheduling allows for periodic double periods for labs, but unfortunately administrators think two hour blocks are excellent times for school assemblies.  I have a friend whose AP course will meet for only one 2 hour block from Sept. to Dec. because of scheduling conflicts with 1/2 days and assemblies.

    •  'No Engineer Left Behind' - standardized testing (4.00 / 3)

      must be killing the math and science fields in school.  i know here in rural OH the vast majority of educational effort is focused on teaching the test material - not creative thinking, exploratory analysis, and certainly not core math and science education.  I'm fighting to get a Math & Science Club started in the Middle & High Schools to show kids that these can actually be FUN subjects (and i am so NOT a math or science expert).  but, you know, it just doesn't seem to be as important here as the high school football program.

      in fact, a very large percentage of high school graduates are content to settle for community college, which has never been a paragon of scientific knowledge as far as I've seen (note: I received an AA from a CC, but also got a BA and an MBA, so I'm not knocking community colleges in the least).  i'm just pointing out that as a nation we seem to have no real interest in math & science, and  our educational system seems to have little leeway to impact that (especially when fundie idiots are fighting tooth and nail to include ID in SCIENCE class!!.

      to me, this problem starts at the top.  i remember bushie, a few years back at a stop in OH, launching some major community college investment program, and i thought -- is that the best we can do???  i guess too many really smart people just might start questioning authority and the status quo.  can't have all them libural elitists running around threatening the GOP/fundie domination of all things important.

      Energize America: Demand Energy Security by 2020!

      by Doolittle Sothere on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 06:47:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Respect (4.00 / 3)

        There was a piece on NPR the other night about Hwang Woo-suk, the Korean scientist who cloned human embryos, despite his current problems, he is a national hero.  His picture is on the front page of newspapers and magazines.  It made me wonder how many Americans could name a single current prominant scientist.  They can name movie stars and sports stars, but science just isn't intersting.
        •  After a bit of thought ... (none / 1)

          people would say "Oh, yeah, Stephen Hawking" - but that would be more from his media image as the "handicapped genius" that did a guest appearance on Star Trek.

          - What happens on DailyKos, stays on Google.

          by Jon Meltzer on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 07:41:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  This brought back memories... (none / 1)

          In the fifth grade (about 1980), we had a class project where everyone made a paper doll of some famous figure in history, wrote a little bio (just enough to fit on a 3x5 note card), and then went around and tried to figure out who was who.

          I chose Marie Curie.  I think one other person in the class figured it out.  On the other hand, I struggled with the football players some of the students put up...

          "The torturer has become like the pirate and slave trader before him, hostis humani generis, an enemy of all mankind." Filartiga v. Pena-Irala, 1980

          by ColoRambler on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 08:33:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Here's where we disagree (none / 1)

        This may sound counterintuitive BUT when a child learns math and science, it is really important that they do so in a certain order and that what they learn be reinforced with practice.  It is a bit like learning a musical instrument.  You can not play a sonata until you have mastered learning to read music, fingering, and all of the other techniques that makes a musician.  Many people would like to believe that this takes the "fun" out of learning math and science but the truth is, order and practice makes learning new concepts easier.  It is essential that a good foundation is laid upon which the truly creative mind blowing stuff can be built.  A mind that has been disciplined can be free to create.  So, I would argue that standardizing math and science, especially math, is exactly what we want to encourage.  
        If you are not a scientist, this may not seem like fun or clear why it has to be so.  That doesn't mean math and science classes have to be dull affairs but there are no shortcuts to making a masterpiece.  As long as the curriculum teaches what must be taught in the right order, the teacher can improvise a bit.  
        I fear that people who were not naturally attracted to these subjects will assume that all children will find the academic rigor required to master them to be dull, difficult and uncreative and so assume that introducing "creative" curriculum is going to help.  Nothing could be further from the truth. The outcome depends heavily on the community committment, the standards of the curriculum and the skill of the teacher.  
        That is why it is SOOOO important that the geeks go to school board meetings and represent their side.  Otherwise, it will be the businessmen and soccer moms on the board that rubber stamp any damn trendy fuzzy curriculum that comes down the pike.  Their hearts are in the right place but they are not experienced in the sciences to really know what they are doing.  

        -3.63, -4.46 "Choose something like a star to stay your mind on- and be staid"

        by goldberry on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 10:34:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I guess we do disagree here to a point (none / 0)

          and I am trained in science.  I agree that some facts must be drilled (arithmetic for instance), however, asking a kid to memorize intermediates in cellular respiration has no real educational value (except that they will score well on ETS exams).  My basic diagreement with most biological education is the order in which we introduce things.  If students are not given a framework for understanding, all of the memorization in the world teaches them nothing.  By overemphasizing memorization of facts we turn many very capable kids off to the wonders of science.  I am not trying to be "fuzzy", and I certainly don't want to make science education less rigorous, I just don't believe that rigorous scientific education has to come in the traditional packaging.  Many of us did just fine with that packaging, but there are many other students who can be reached with a bit of creativity.
          •  No, no, no (none / 0)

            Everyone must learn the equations, energy exchanges, and the molecular diagrams for both the Kreb's Cycle and the Citric Acid Cycle.  Why?  Because I had to do it, darn it, and getting all that memorized was likely the most difficult single task I ever tackled.

            More seriously: I agree.  I never regreted learning how to do something, even if it turned out to be something esoteric that I never put to use in later life.  But there were a number of oddball facts that I was forced to memorize that seem to have little application outside very specialized fields.  

            Did all that bloody calculus come in handy?  Yes, yes it did.  But the PChem... <shudder>.

          •  Some memorization is necessary but (none / 0)

            how you reached the conclusion that I am advocating a memorization only pedagogy is beyond me.  With the biological and chemical sciences, learning the mechanisms involved is a very good substitute for the memorization of every reaction and intermediate.  Still, you have to learn the mechanism and do a bit of memorization.  Humans are not born with this knowledge.  It isn't natural to them.  It must be taught, learned and practiced until it becomes natural.  This takes some activation energy but once the energy is expended, the rest will follow more easily.  
            What some educational experts are advocating (and I know this because I served on the curriculum committee of my local school board) is that we replace rigor with creativity.  It sounds great, initially.  They always end up suplementing these very expensive curriculums with drill sheets.  Why?  Because the creative way wasn't sufficient.  There are very good methods of teaching math out there but for some reason, educators tend to avoid them.  (and parent like me end up having to buy Saxon math and Kumon sessions so their kids can compete with the rest of the world.) What is absolutely necessary is that we hold the curriculum advisor's feet to the fire.  He/she should produce data that proves that one curriculum proposal is better than another.  My experience shows that the evaluation of data and different pedagogical methods is not something that educators are particularly good at doing.  That is why it is so important that the geeks show up at board meetings and challenge the material.  If the program is as good as the advisor says it is, the data will show it.  Otherwise, it needs to be thrown out and a better one found.  What program is the best?  It should be easy to find out, provided there are national standards and test results.  
            Personally, I don't understand this "teaching to the test" meme.  If you have a standard, that is what should be taught.  The test measures whether the student mastered the standard.  Many, many countries do this.  It is not evil.  Whether the teacher finds it dull and boring is another question.  I don't really care how the teacher gets it done.  They may have to take different approaches with different students, though some methods stand out as being better than others.   But there is no way I am going to let them off the hook for not teaching the standard.  I support the teachers and their unions but as a parent and a taxpayer, I expect them to do what we contracted with them to do and that is NOT to decide what standards we expect them to teach.  It is no exaggeration to say the future of our nation depends on them getting serious about rigor in choosing the right material and teaching using the best methods known.  

            -3.63, -4.46 "Choose something like a star to stay your mind on- and be staid"

            by goldberry on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 12:07:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  teaching to the test does not work (none / 0)

              Part of the problem is that tests should be a random coverage of the material that reflect how you have learned the whole material. With teaching to the test, students memorize either the exact problems on the test or problems that differ only in the quantities involved. If it isn't on the test, it isn't taught. When the course should be teaching general methods that enable one to solve most of the problems within the scope of the curriculum.

              --
              -6.25, -6.36 Worst. President. Dictator. Ever.

              by whitis on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 03:23:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Sorry (none / 0)

              Did not mean to suggest that you were advocating memorization only, but unfortunately that is what many AP courses become.  I fully agree with you when it comes to math- there is a necessity to learn the foundation in order to master higher math.  What I disagree with is the concept that you have to learn the reactions of respiration and photosynthesis in order to understand biology.  That is obviously a simplification of my concerns, but a good way to encapsulate them.  Memorizing some reactions doesn't really get a kid anything, they don't understand what they have memorized nor do they understand how these reactions fit into a living system.  

              My problems with teaching to the test are almost too numerous to list.  First, many do not test anything meaningful- they are designed to test memorization-  What does an isomerase do?  HOw many years did Darwin spend on the Beagle? rather than ability to interpret data and make reasonable predictions based on known iformation.  Second, I have seen fourth grade science test questions where none of the provided answers are correct.  Third, I don't think we should be exposing young children to "high stakes" testing- they get stressed over tests in 3rd and 4th grade even if you explain that it is a test of the success of the schools not the children.   Fourth, we squash the creativity of childhood by training them to answer open ended questions the way an adult would in order to get maximum points. And last (at least for now) In Massachusetts the greatest predictor of a districts success on the MCAS is the socioeconomic status of the Town. I am sure that trend holds nationally, there are proposals to base teacher salaries on the success of the students-  ultimately this would punish teachers for working in districts with poor children, creating yet another disincentive for quality teachers to move into poor school districts.

              •  Recognizing a meme (none / 0)

                We have to be very careful to recognize memes even when they are coming from our side.  "Teaching to the test" is one of those phrases that sounds really, really bad but we have to ask teachers to define this phrase in detail to see what they are trying to say,  
                Is teaching a standard "teaching to the test"?  I would say yes.  Is this a desirable thing.  Again, I would say yes.  If we are teaching things randomly then we have to examine the curriculum to see if the random nature of the method covers the required standards.  If it doesn't, it needs to be changed.  If the teacher is actually saying that they are teaching how to answer a particular kind of test question, that may or not be teaching a standard.  If the teacher is teaching the standard, there should be no reason for the teacher to teach using sample test questions.  If the teacher waits until the week before the test to bring out sample questions and make sure that everybody is on board with them, that is called "cramming" and should be discouraged.  So, the next time some argues against "teaching to the test", ask them whether they mean teaching a standard or cramming.  One is desirable, one is not.  

                -3.63, -4.46 "Choose something like a star to stay your mind on- and be staid"

                by goldberry on Sun Dec 11, 2005 at 05:47:42 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Coming at it from a different angle... (4.00 / 11)

    The distortions that you see in executive/finance pay here is probably a result of the US's emphasis on short-term thinking (quarterly bottom-line stuff).  From economic theory, we know that resources will be allocated where they have the best marginal return.  If a company which formerly made gadgets can now make more money in the credit markets (GE, anyone?) over the short term, they will change their emphasis...and their need for MBAs over engineers will rise.  Of course, in India/China they are at a different point on the economic development cycle, and manufacturing is much more important than short-term manipulation of stock, so they have a greater need for engineers & scientists...

    Anyway, excellent diary, DT.  With all the other factors at play (the Bush economic policies, particularly), I shre your pessimism over the next 10 -12 years, and the adjustment is going to be damed painful.

    Read or *listen to* my SF novel for free. (-7.13/-7.33)

    by Shadan7 on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 05:42:30 AM PDT

  •  Nice, really nice. (4.00 / 2)

    Recommended.

    This is a really serious issue; I teach in higher ed, and year by year I see more and more students complain of math and science requirements.  Those areas get no respect, and certainly no compensation.

    It'll be interesting to see how all this washes out, especially in the sense of "interesting" involved in the Chinese curse.

    Thanks again; a sobering and important read.

    Je suis inondé de déesses

    by Marc in KS on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 05:47:40 AM PDT

    •  Same Here (4.00 / 4)

      I also teach in higher ed (for past 15 years) and I'm seeing exactly the same thing.

      I also own a high tech company and finding employees (even in a university town with a first rank engineering school) is depressingly hard.

      All it takes to stand out is reasonable brains and a willingness to buckle down and sweat the details in a given technical area. Most of the students have the brains - its the technical work ethic that we have lost.

      -2.38 -4.87: Maturity - Doing what you know is right even though you were told to do it.

      by grapes on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 06:45:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The thing that really bugs me the most (none / 0)

        about the math- and science-o-phobes is that they've never really given it a chance.  Most are not stupid (afraid, yes, but not stupid), and if they'd just give it a chance in the hands of a good teacher, they'd really be surprised.

        99% of success in math and science is just butt-work: you just need to sit and practice it.  It's not rocket science (well, it could be, depending on which math and science...).

        Je suis inondé de déesses

        by Marc in KS on Sat Dec 10, 2005 at 11:54:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  My wife (none / 0)

          is an English student at Berkeley, and abhors math.  She got better grades than I did all the way through both high school and college, but failed a math class 3 times in high school.  It just doesn't click with her.

          However, her last year of communit college (before the transfer to the UC) forced a semester of basic Chemistry on her (and she WAS afraid).  She showed up the first day, and came home to tell me how much sh loved the class.  Apparently the teacher realized he was teaching basic chem (high enough of a level for the non math/science majors, focused instead on the undecideds and liberal arts students), and hoped to instill a love of science, not methodology, so focused on exploring how chemical reactions effect the world these kids lived in.  The class was "non-math based chemisty of the human body" I believe.

          She came home every day she had that class, explaining properties of molecules, electron interaction and molecule naming in such excitement.  I'm a environmental scientist, and I love my work, but she just seemed in WONDER every day.  The thing about this clas was it didn't require any math equations more difficult than simple division, and no "signifigant figures".  What is DID do was remove her fear of science.  It also got a large number of students in the class who were unsure of where to head directed towards science-based degrees, which was the professor's whole point.  

          I agree that a good teacher makes all the difference, but I can't see the point in doing the vast amounts of "butt-work" if it's not a field you're interested in.  It's worth the investment if you are (I did more Ochem classes than I care to remember), but it just doesn't work for some kids.  

          She passed her math class (with a 70.2%) only with weekly work from a tutor, constant studying and lots of tears.  Like you said, she isn't stupid, far from it, but her mind just doesn't work in a way conducive to deep mathematical theory.

  •  WELL I guess I've got some even more bad news... (none / 1)

    I just recently saw a study that found that for men, you either have a big brain (for high i.q.) or big sperm production (for high reproduction) or somewhere in between, but not both! Therefore, all the dumbasses are theoretically reporducing faster all the smart asses because of this.

       This is due to the fact that sperm production and brain development are two very demanding organ growths and maintenance so the human body can't do both...

       I've got a final exam in an hour so I don't have time right now to find the study, but after I'll have a look for it.