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Bush cancels...when German event can't be scripted

by Ed Tracey

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Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:59:35 AM PST

(From the diaries -- kos)

From today's Der Spiegel:

The much-touted American-style "town hall" meeting the White House has been planning with "normal Germans" of everyday walks of life will be missing during his visit to the Rhine River hamlet of Mainz this afternoon.

A few weeks ago, the Bush administration had declared that the chat -- which could have brought together tradesmen, butchers, bank employees, students and all other types to discuss trans-Atlantic relations -- would be the cornerstone of President George W. Bush's brief trip to Germany [...]

The Germans, though, insisted that a free forum should be exactly that. Wolfgang Ischinger, Germany's Ambassador to the United States, explained to the New York Times last week: "We told them, don't get upset with us if they ask angry questions."

But on Wednesday, that town hall meeting will be nowhere on the agenda -- it's been cancelled.

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Permalink | 246 comments

  •  How do you spell... (4.00 / 13)

    Loyalty Oath in German?

    by fly on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 09:56:11 AM PST

  •  Dodging the Good Neighbors (4.00 / 7)

    When gangsters try to make themselves out to be friends of the community, the last thing they want is a confrontation with the people they supposedly benefit -- the people who have lost sons and daughters and brothers and sisters and husbands and wives to their product.

    There's no difference between pushing heroin and pushing fear.

    by cskendrick on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 09:58:29 AM PST

    •  Maybe (none / 0)

      there is no difference between pushing fear and pushing heroin but I'll bet that the drug user has a better awareness of his addiction than the fear consumer which is why fear is so powerful.

      BTW, I really liked that line. I hope at least one high-profile Democrat steals and uses it the next time Republicans try to trot out the big bad wolf.

      The right wing hates Pooh because he reminds children to "think, think, think."

      by dicta on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:52:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  If this is any indication (4.00 / 28)

    MAINZ, Germany Some 7,000 protesters, some carrying banners saying "Bush go home," "War Monger" and "No. 1 Terrorist," marched through the German town of Mainz on Wednesday but were kept away from the visiting U.S. president.

    Ignoring snow and freezing temperatures, the demonstrators held banners chastising Bush in English with slogans such as: "You can bomb the world to pieces but not into peace." Many had pre-printed posters reading: "Bush, No. 1 Terrorist."

    Before the march, one speaker told the crowd: "Mr. Bush, please leave our country. You started an illegal war against Iraq."

    German police confiscated one poster that read: "We had our Hitler, now you have yours."

    Several protesters wearing fake U.S. army uniforms pulled a trailer with dummies of blood-covered Iraq prisoners impaled on iron bars under a banner: "We don't want your type of freedom."

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20050223-0705-bush-germany-protest.html

    by debraz on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:00:14 AM PST

    •  Bless the Germans (4.00 / 27)

      Can you believe it? A people who actually learned from their own history.

      Good for them.

      by Shashalnikya on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:06:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  but... (4.00 / 2)

        I'm not crazy on the police choosing to rip away the Hitler poster, while letting the other posters stay.  Repressing references to Hitler is denial of history, not learning from it.

        Neither fire nor wind, birth nor death can erase our good deeds. Buddha

        by zenbowl on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:15:04 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I do agree there (none / 0)

          And I'm not crazy about banning some political parties, symbols, etc... but by and large the German people have largely given up ultranationalism and authoritarianism.

          by Shashalnikya on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:17:04 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  or repeating it n/t (none / 1)

          by draftchrisheinz on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:19:10 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Not exactly. (4.00 / 3)

          In a country where Hitler destroyed several generations of Germans, not to mention their reputation in the world for fifty years or so, their economy, their pride... there are a lot of people who have very real physical and mental reactions to depictions of the man. They have very specific laws in Germany because of that, which means you don't put him on a sign - pro or against.

          Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, I'm a Freeper.

          by HollywoodOz on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:27:16 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  and this is where I have a problem (4.00 / 2)

            When you ban things, you make them more powerful.  Get him out there, let artists make fun of his visage, let them crap on him, and then let them forget him.  Keeping Hitler and the Nazis as taboo is antithetical to the rule of Democracy.

            I understand that everyone has very visceral reactions to Nazism, especially in Germany, but I don't think that's an excuse for preventing freedom of speech.

            Neither fire nor wind, birth nor death can erase our good deeds. Buddha

            by zenbowl on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:33:59 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Germans elected Hitler (none / 0)

              They have a fine appreciation of the limits of democracy and free speech when it comes to paranoid demagogues.  They know they can't afford to be too doctrinaire when it comes to Nazis, a lesson America has yet to learn.

              To announce that we are to stand by the president right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. -TR

              by Dallasdoc on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:49:49 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Historical note (none / 1)

                No, they didn't. Hitler came to power as a result of  a shady backstairs deal following the collapse of the previous conservative coalition (which was ruling by decree by virtue of the president's emergency powers as the Reichstag was deadlocked) in January 1933. At the time the Nazis were the largest party in the Reichstag but they did not have a majority and their vote was actually declining. More Germans voted against Hitler than voted for him. Hitler wasn't elected chancellor and he certainly wasn't elected to his subsequent position - he appointed himself to that.

                by Soph on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 05:11:17 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  When we lived in Germany in the late 80's (none / 0)

              there was a big flap because a German investigative reporter went into the exchange book store on one of the army posts and bought Mein Kampf, which was banned from sale in Germany.  Never mind that it was being sold in an American bookstore in the middle of an American army installation, it was a big story.  I don't remember what happened, but I don't remember seeing it sold anywhere in any PX's when we lived in the Netherlands 2001-2004.

              However, there is still a very real discrimination against Germans, at least in the Limburgh province of the Netherlands where we lived -- Dutch people will yell "where's my bike?" at a German as a joke, a reference to the fact that the Nazis confiscated all the bikes when they occupied the Netherlands, and they use Nazi helmets as ash trays.  

              Proudly providing chaos since 1964 -6.75, -8.31

              by jules too on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:54:13 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  When my daughter's birthfather (none / 0)

                visited me from Germany, he got really upset about the lingering discrimination against Germans.  He said people question Germans when they display nationalism, but for everyone else it's okay.

                I'm not naive enough to think that my daughter will not face some discrimination for her German heritage.  In fact I had an interesting conversation with a friend from work who is half German but never admits it to anyone.

                My side of adoption.

                by Poor Statue on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 12:22:59 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Isn't even (none / 0)

                the video game "Wolfenstein 3d" banned or at least severely restricted in sales in Germany?  I would certainly understand why.

                Anyway, I'll close my post, and the discussion of that poster, by saying:

                /godwin

                LeBron is supporting Obama...will you?

                by BlueEngineerInOhio on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 01:48:03 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Wolfenstein (none / 0)

                  the German edition has an Eagle shape instead of the Swastika.

                  We have no desire to offend you -- unless you are a twit!

                  by ScrewySquirrel on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 02:32:35 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  About Godwin's Law. (none / 1)

                  Up until the last year or so, I too would invoke "Godwin's Law" to chastise people who compared this or that with Nazis (be it Rush's "feminazis" remarks, or comparisons of Bush or Saddam with Hitler). I contended that such comparisons insulted the millions of victims of Nazism by watering down the evil of the Nazis with frivolous comparisons.

                  I still feel that way in most cases (certainly "feminazis" is very over-the-top--I don't even get where the comparison comes from), but I wonder if "Godwin's Law" is ultimately a danger to a world that would like Nazism or fascism to never again make a repeat performance, in whatever guise. Because it makes ANY comparison to what went on in Germany in the 30s and 40s taboo. So what happens when a chain of events and a leader really DO offer a compelling comparison to the rise of the Third Reich (as I've heard some survivors of that period have said concerning the rise of the neoconservatives in America)? How do we warn people?

                  Again, I understand why this "Godwin" (whoever he is) wanted to discourage the frivolous comparisons, as there've been a lot of those bandied about over the years and they were becoming a nuisance to meaningful discourse. However, like anything else, it should never be taken as an ironclad absolute--a "law"--but rather a guideline, with the understanding that should a valid or somewhat valid comparison come along, it can be pointed out as a warning so that history hopefully doesn't repeat. I would think that the best weapon against bad history repeating (or "rhyming") is to be able to see and draw attention to valid parallels.

                  As the saying goes, "the smartest trick the Devil ever pulled is convincing people he didn't exist"--or, I suppose, convincing people he died at some point and must not be spoken of ever again.

                  Powell doctrine, baby!

                  by Alioth on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 06:31:27 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  nope - (3.25 / 4)

              this is fundamentalist libertarian fuzzy double talk. Nazi symbols are not a simple "taboo". They are symbols that had a meaning and the support of that meaning is what German people have democratically decided is not what they want to allow a second time in their country.

              We don't support freedom of speech for the sake of supporting abusive hate speech that is harrassing and insulting foreign visitors who are staying in our country at the invitation of our government.  

              The police didn't prevent freedom of speech, they prevented an abusive hate speechler from insulting a foreign president, who visited Germany on the invitation of our government. If the police had prevented the same person with the same sign referring to a German politician THAT would equate to limiting that protestor's freedom of speech, but not if you refer the sign to a foreign visitor.  

              No need to behave like an asshole to prove that Germans support freedom of speech, you know.

              It's pretty clear that the majority of the German population can't relate to and don't appreciate President Bush's way of talking and acting. There is all the freedom that needs to be there for the Germans to express their disagreements with President Bush.

              One doesn't have to compare to Hitler what is not comparable. We won't allow to abuse the "Hitler Comparison" for any little idiot's political protest.

              There are left jerks and right jerks, and just because you are a left jerks, doesn't mean you ain't a jerk.

              There is no proof in one way or the other that ignoring Neonazis hate speech and allowing them to glorify Nazi Symbolism or make fun of if or allow them to engage in "free Nazi-talk" is the better approach to get rid of Neonazis than the ban on showing support to Nazi-ism in public.

              Mind you that supposedly "educated" youngsters like the son of Princess Diana can't even understand where to draw the line for what is acceptable and what is not when it comes to "Nazi Symbols".

              You know, if someone wants to be a Neonazi, he will be, if you allow him to be one legally under the umbrella of free speech rights or not is pretty obviously not the determining factor for a person to behave and think like a Nazi, KKK or supremacist or whatever other racist human rights abuser.

              I wished I could say you are a troll without getting punished here with zero ratings, but I doubt that you would allow me that much freedom of speech, right?

              by mimi on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:15:38 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  re: (none / 0)

                Mind you that supposedly "educated" youngsters like the son of Princess Diana can't even understand where to draw the line for what is acceptable and what is not when it comes to "Nazi Symbols".

                Prince Harry was wearing a German Afrika Korps uniform and the theme of the party he was attending was 'Colonialists and Natives.'

                So, you could say 'He went to a party dressed as a Nazi, how insensitive!'  But wouldn't that lack context?

                Fly Meets Burt

                by buttermyself on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 02:20:51 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  The Nazi Party (4.00 / 3)

              is illegal in Germany, as it is in some other European countries.  They find our first amendment odd in that respect, because its hard for them to believe that the Nazi party would be legal in the US.

              I think given historical context, there are times when exceptions can be understood.  I have been informed that the Nazi Party is also illegal in Israel, don't know if that is true, but I can certainly understand the reason for such a law if it is.  Don't know that I would take a principled stand on that one either.

              Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

              by a gilas girl on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:29:57 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  While on Israel... (none / 0)

                The name of the man who was the father of Palestinian activism (and long since dead) is something you wouldn't want to say on the streets of Jerusalem. You'll end up in jail without a second thought just for speaking his name.

                It can be argued that it shouldn't be that way, but it can also be argued pretty well by those on the other end of the argument that it should.

                Diff'rent strokes...

                Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, I'm a Freeper.

                by HollywoodOz on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:45:31 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Are you sure you mean the Nazi party? (4.00 / 2)

                I'm not sure there ever has been an actual Nazi party in Israel, but there have been several Jewish fascist groups, at least one of which, 'Kach' is banned:

                Kach, which means "Take", advocates ethnic cleansing in the West Bank and Gaza, and was started by Meir Kahane, American founder of the Jewish Defense League and anti-arab racist.

                They were banned in '88 from running for parliament.  A couple of years later Kahane was assasinated by an Egyptian who was later convicted in the first World Trade Center bombing.  In the late '90s both Israel and the US declared Kach, and an offshoot founded by Kahane's son, to be terrorist organizations.

                The son was assasinated a few years ago by Palestinian militants.

                Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some... farcical aquatic ceremony!

                by imatlas on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 12:04:30 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  My democracy is better than yours? (3.66 / 3)

              We also have banned and suppressed items.  Before you wag your finger at someone else's bans, try to find a DVD store that sells Disney's movie "Song of the South".  (I was able to procure a copy from a website in Alabama a few months back, and the movie was as I remembered it from my childhood, 'entertaining and feel good').

              Legend has it that the NAACP didn't like it because it showed slaves having fun, but it's sold all over Europe.  It's a classic.  But not in the good old USA.

              Song of the South

              Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers

              by groggy on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:51:36 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  re: censorship (4.00 / 2)

                I rated this a 3 because I found it to be an extremely interesting post, and perhaps worth its own thread.

                I don't quite agree that a private company's refusal to market its own product is tantamount to censorship. If the US govt. pressured Disney not to release the film, that would be another matter. I happen to be a big fan of Al Stewart (musician), and none of his current releases (or anything save for Year of the Cat, and a greatest hits selection)are available in the States. Is this censorship? Likely, it's an individual company deciding that it's not profitable to market it here ( I get them on line as imports, or on E-bay).

                Still, it clearly seems as if Disney is ducking a sensitive topic, as just about anything put out by Disney tends to make $$ on the home video circuit. Interestingly, my niece lives in Atlanta and has just about everything Disney has released for her two kids (ages 5 and 3) on home video. She doesn't have this one, and I wonder if she even knows it exists.

                Regarding censorship however, it's more prevalent than one would think. It happens in school districts with "sensitive" books - can't risk offending anyone. I also recall hearing several titles of books about the CIA that were available in Paris when I was there as a student in the early 90's which were supposedly banned in the US. I wish I could give a title here, but don't recall them. Any help here would be appreciated, if anyone knows actual titles.

                One can argue that the refusal of media to cover certain sensitive news stories until they are so big they can't ignore them anymore is tantamount to censorship. Here, I would agree. No coverage at all of the human damage of our bombs in Iraq, or of the caskets coming in to Dover AFB - Definitely censorship.

                Our hands are not clean in this respect.

                Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power - Benjamin Franklin

                by johninPortland on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 12:24:53 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Trying to work and blog (none / 0)

                  makes for disjointed posts.  

                  I was trying unsuccessfully to say what you said very well.  Censorship does not have to be codified to be effective.  Pressure groups work just as well.  This is demonstratd by BushCo almost every day as corporate media cringes in their shadow.

                  Having a monotasking brain would be useful for this type of effort, but work thoughts keep interrupting, pesky and inconvenient, but goes with the territory.

                  Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers

                  by groggy on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 01:21:08 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Song of the South (4.00 / 3)

                A private company's effort to maintain its squeaky-clean image isn't quite the same as government censorship.  You can't find a copy of Song of the South on DVD because the copyright holder refuses to sell you one (and because Disney keeps bribing Congress to extend the length of copyrights), not because the government pulled it off the shelves.

                A better analogy for German censorship of Nazi-related speech would be the Supreme Court's "fighting words" doctrine, which vaguely supports the possibility that some forms of expression — namely, those that are likely to trigger an imminent breach of the peace — are not Constitutionally protected speech.  Germany's statutes, when viewed in that light, could be seen as defining that category of speech more broadly.

                by Forbes on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 12:31:37 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  it's interesting (none / 0)

                that you mention that disney won't sell song of the south anymore, because i was playing disney's version of sceneit (a movie trivia game) with my girlfriend and her siblings over christmas and we saw two questions involving song of the south.  only myself and my girlfriend's grandmother had ever heard of the movie.

                i rather liked br'er rabbit.

                "Anyone out there who doubts that America is a place where anything is possible... tonight is your answer." - Barack Obama

                by lightlytoasted on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:37:28 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  In the same way (none / 0)

              that the "N" word is used today by those very people to whom it was once a term of hatred, enslavement, death, oppression, and so much more.  The more it is used, the less effective the original meaning is.

              by Another Ex Kerry Staffer on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 05:49:02 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  That's right (none / 0)

            The display or Nazi symbols is illegal in Germany. As is Hitler's book. Being German, I don't think this has anything to do with "freedom of speech". Unlike the US, Germany has some experience with the kind of stuff that is now banned, and nobody is interested in repeating it. While bans might be somewhat problematic it also needs to be mentioned that, unlike in most other countries, Germany's far-right is a fringe group with close to no influence. Compare that with France where right-wing hate monger Le Pen gets twenty percent (if not more), or with Austria, where that ultra-right-wing hate monger is governor of a state.

            You're simply believing in a myth is you think that "freedom of speech" is more important than countering extremists who are out to destroy your country - especially if that very freedom of speech is being so massively undermined by corporate censorship as in the US. For example, if in Germany a company decided to fire somebody because he/she supported the wrong political (mainstream) candidate - as happened here last year a few times - that person could easily sue and win. Not that that would ever happen because employers wouldn't even dare to do that kind of stuff.

            PS: As far as that Hitler-Bush poster is concerned, I'm sure they took that down to avoid nasty images on the "news" programmes here.

            PPS: Maybe people here should worry more about freedom of speech here than in Germany. I bet what you'll see on the "news" here about that visit has little - if anything - to do with what really happened.

            by jmc on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 02:50:49 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  don't be so sure about (none / 0)

              Germany's far right being a fringe group. They might still be now, but that doesn't mean anything.

              History doesn't repeat itself, but it mutates the same evil stuff to come out in another outfit every two to three generations or so.
              Most people don't see beneath the new outfit the same old human failures.

              People don't learn from history, because the people who did learn from it die and the new ones never learned, because they never lived through the past.

              by mimi on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 04:30:38 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm baffled... (none / 0)

                .. about your statement about Germany's far-right as the only thing it shows is pure ignorance. Seriously. I suggest you look into the state of affairs of far-right parties in Europe before making such uneducated statements. I'd be the first one to cry foul about far-right parties in Germany - being German myself - but (fortunately) there is almost nothing to cry foul about.

                And your statement about people not learning from history because they die is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read.

                by jmc on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 07:34:46 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  well, you are entitled to your judgement (none / 0)

                  but just because I don't express myself in such a clear manner that you would understand me, doesn't mean that what I thought I was saying is wrong. I admit, if I am tired of a subject, I am talking in shorthand and drop explanations necessary to be understood by others.

                  I repeat though that mankind can not learn from history in a sense that the learned things would enable them to prevent to fail in the future. You have exactly seventy years on average to learn from your life experience, that is three generations at the most can learn from the experience of their fathers or grandfathers. After that it's all new again. And history book learning alone doesn't do the trick.

                  So far, intellectuals and historians, despite all their best efforts and courageous fights for human rights, just laws etc, were not able to prevented "evildoing dictators" from being democratically elected by their own people. Citizens do elect their own abusers almost all of the time.

                  I am German too. So, I guess, the fact that we both are, doesn't make us experts on Neonazis and extreme right-wing movements in our own country, nor should it make us experts in other countries right-wing movements, like the one in France or in the US.

                  Can we call it quits? I don't think it's worth to continue the conversation.

                  by mimi on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 09:24:44 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  I agree on freedom of speech (none / 1)

          But taking the Hitler signs may not be a denial of their own history, it may be Dubya's denial of his own.  Keep in mind that it is the Germans who want to try Rumsfeld and Gonzales for war crimes.

          by debraz on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:44:01 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  They have a longer history (none / 1)

          and a more nuanced and complicated code of "rights."

          The US has pretty sweeping rights of free speech compared to most countries, European ones in particular.

          One should be careful of assuming that our precise political rights are appropriate for everyone else.  The Europeans are grappling with this even now -- what constitutes "human" rights vs. political ones particular to a country's history and culture -- and it's not an easy problem.

          by bleh on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:03:13 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  European Union and rights (none / 0)

            The Europeans are grappling with this even now -- what constitutes "human" rights vs. political ones particular to a country's history and culture -- and it's not an easy problem.

            I'm glad that they're doing this, and bringing -- one hopes -- some fresh thought to the subject. In the US, we have enshrined our rights and now mostly ignore them except for symbolic display.

            (Exceptions being folks like the ACLU and the NRA. (For the record, I find the NRA too rabidly focused on one particular right, and I disagree with them on many particulars, but I'm glad they're there.))

            "All progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw

            by Bearpaw on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:19:00 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  oh, I am proud of that (none / 0)

            a more nuanced and complex (not complicated) "code of rights" ...

            nuanced code is your friend, complex code is your challenge ...

            by mimi on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 06:49:48 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  German censorship? (none / 1)

          I believe it is against the law to possess Nazi paraphenalia or own Mein Kampf or any other literature in Germany, unless for the express use in the classroom.  This is not intended to deny or ignore, rather to ban even the mere germ of the party and to show a zero tolerance policy toward Naziism.  German students learn about what happened in schools and it's permeated in the culture, on the news, in the Holocaust museums, and so on.  

          Since we - considering you an American - don't know what it is like to have that historical load hanging around our necks, we're not really in a place to understand.  I have no problem with this and find that no nation knows more about the Holocaust than the Germans, with the obvious exception of Israel.

          by lennywick on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:19:22 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Actually, I think we do- (4.00 / 2)

            Since we - considering you an American - don't know what it is like to have that historical load hanging around our necks, we're not really in a place to understand.

            I think we do- we just refuse to admit it (with the exception of a small group of activists). Just ask a descendant of the peoples we dispossed and murdered as part of our expansionist policy in the 17th, 18th, 19th, and even into the early 20th century. Will we ever know the real numbers? Nope. And the issue is largely swept under the metaphorical rug of our collective social consciousness. We can ignore it, but it is still there, a lump to trip over in the night.

            And yes, I'm 1/16th Native American. Enough to be twitchy about the issue, not enough to qualify for tribal status, or to really feel like I can speak to the issue from the native view.

            BTW, what is the accepted for for naming in a discussion of this subject? 'Indian' is outre, 'Native American' doesn't feel right (hey, I was born here too). 'Aboriginal American' would be more correct, but confusing to those who can only think of 'Aboriginals' as the people in Australia.  I like the term 'First Peoples', but I've only seen it used in reference to Canadians...

            "It is our choices Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." -Albus Dumbledore ~~~~~~~~~ http://slugcrossings.blogspot.com/

            by Lainie on Thu Feb 24, 2005 at 04:09:52 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  we don't have freedom of speech in germany (none / 1)


          At least not something akin to the 1st Amendment.

          There is something in the code along the lines of "provoking a foreign guest of state", and this is seperate from the banning of Nazi symbols.

          A US citizen had his "Bush Terrorist No 1" poster confiscated.

          Just the same, protestors were arrested years ago when Li Peng visited germany.

          our own correspondent is sorry to tell of an uneasy time that all is not well…

          by Felix Deutsch on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:20:52 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm against state censorship of any kind (none / 0)

            I tend to think that's one area where we are more enlightened than the Europeans.

            by Geotpf on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 02:03:29 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Well, let's see, what do you think would (none / 0)

            happen, if Nelson Mandela were visiting the United States and an American protestor would show up with a sign showing a tree and a noose saying "lynch that bastard - we don't need negroes here".

            You think the US police would allow the protestor to do that? And if they would allow it, would you be proud of your US first amendment freedom of speech?

            Did I make a point?

            by mimi on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 04:25:17 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  mimi we already have negroes and mulattoes here (none / 0)

              we wouldnt want to lynch Mandela...

              so you didnt really make a point....

              we wouldn't lynch him unless he didnt support expansionist wars of foreign agression, spoke french, claimed that Dear Leader is a manchild etc

              The cops would probably remove your anti Mandela protestor for public safety reasons - some hot heads would try to lynch the guy with the sign. I had a "klan" rally in my hometown (not sure if you know what that is you being aleman - they are rightwing skinheads etc) and the state police outnumbered the klan members. The whole point was to prevent the overwhelming crowds of anti-Klan protesters from attacking the dozen or so klans people

              all of the overtime for the state police was what pissed me off besides the fact that white idiots rallied at the the Thurgood Marshall remembrance park - poor taste...

              "Sometimes it's like his record skips or like some coke-dusted and liquor-glazed synapse is unable to fire and he's just stuck" RudePundit

              by christhughes on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 07:25:31 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  you didn't understand my comment (none / 0)

                I guess I can't express myself in a way you would understand what I wanted to get at and I can't find an appropriate analogy. Let's drop it. The comments to this article are below standard anyhow.

                by mimi on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 07:54:17 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  no (none / 0)

              Did I make a point?

              No, I specifically referred to a law that curtails freedom of expression when a visiting head of state is involved.

              This is wrong.

              our own correspondent is sorry to tell of an uneasy time that all is not well…

              by Felix Deutsch on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:46:03 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't get it (none / 0)

                I have an issue with libertarian Americans attacking Germans because they limit some very specific freedom of speech rights with regards to Nazi related hate speech.

                Americans, who come and tell Germans that they behave like Nazis, because they dare to be authoritarian enough to limit freedom of speech when it comes to Nazi related issues, is IMO a phony and dishonest criticism and rather mean spirited.

                On the one hand, even on this thread, people comment about the so-called "good German" who has learned from history. Yes, thank you, for the carrot, dear commentators, your moral pat on the back of Germans who supposedly have turned out their better sides, is quite touching, but rather annoying as well.

                Becausse, on the other hand, dear commentators, you hand out a stick to those Germans, who, having learend the  lessons about mass hysterical incitements of hate by means of "very free Nazi propaganda hate speech" during the Third Reich, dare to limit some aspects of free speech rights. The stick handed from libertarian Americans is the argument that Germans are still so authoritarian that they ban Nazi hate speech, thus remaining rather authoritarian in their mind set.

                I have an issue with that argument. I think it's mean-spirited and insulting. I don't buy it. I don't care if you are right-wing libertarian or a left-wing libertarian, I don't believe in absolute fundamentalist libertarian theories and think they can fire back very badly in the sense that they don't promote equal human rights for all, but can rather endanger then quite badly too.

                There are reasons why one can come to the conclusion that freedom of speech is not an absolute right, and that reasonable limitations can be helpful.

                "Volksverhetzung", incitement of masses to "hate" the "enemy" is something everyone is aware of. Don't we have enough experience with Nazi propaganda, certain styles of islamist fundamentalist Wahabi propaganda, and certain (phony) ways of US right-wing, fundamentalist, libertarian "freedom-rights" propaganda?

                Should the experience with those give us reason to rethink the role absolute freedom of speech rights in these days, where mass propaganda can spread at the speed of light into anybody's home and consciousness?  

                Why is nobody talking about the dangers of absolute freedom of speech in our technological age of mass broadcasts? Why is everybody picking out the smallest and tiniest guestures of limiting of abusive hate speech and representing it as the real danger?

                The phenomenon of an Ann Coulter style of freedom of speech or Fox News style incitement of negative emotions as a clear political strategy is possible partly due to the technological possibilites to broadcast massivley and directly and intimitely such speech to the people. It is much more dangerous IMO than "taking a sign away" from a single protestor that is a. pretty dumb b. pretty impolite without the need and c. meaningless and rather irrelevant.

                Well, I guess I can't make myself clear. But definitely, trusting libertarian fundamentalist's ideologies to be the one and only cure against fascist abuse of the people by their government, is not what I am willing to buy into. I think their arguments are dangerously tricky and designed to confuse people's minds.

                by mimi on Thu Feb 24, 2005 at 05:49:22 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Its illegal though (none / 0)

          Displaying public images of Hitler and/or NAZI symbols is out-lawed in Germany. (It may soon be in all of the EU.)

          So technically, Der Polizei were um..."just following orders" as it were.

          The Book of Revelation is not a foreign policy manual.

          by Dont Just Stand There on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 01:25:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  There was a time (none / 0)

        when we Americans had learned from our history.  I'm currently reading Geoffrey Stone's Perilous Times: Free Speech in Wartime from The Sedition Act of 1798 to The War on Terrorism.  I've only gotten through the section on the Alien and Sedition Acts so far, but I understand from a review that the book states that the reason freedom of speech was not suppressed during the War of 1812 and the Mexican Was is that people had learned from the experience of the Alien and Sedition Acts.

        The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

        by lysias on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:51:25 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  How do you know that? (none / 0)

        I understand it's a nice thing to say, but what gives you the idea that anyone has learned something?

        by mimi on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 04:19:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  is M$M showing this? (none / 0)

      don't watch tv much so i could have missed it. in print i've only seen one mention of a smallish demonstration in brussels(?).
      is international media covering much in the way of dissent?

      Finally, the third woman appointed to the Supreme Court. About fucking time.

      by cosette on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:18:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  NYTimes soft on story (none / 0)

      Times is continues showing its identity crisis:

      Over the weekend at the start of this trip, the Times did a couple of spin jobs that made me think something was up.  The first was they ran a headline saying: Continent Is Divided, Though Views Soften.

      And in the story they talked about how European Politicians were warming to Bush.  Or at least thats how the story started.  

      I commented on that already here:
      http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2005/2/20/95648/4800/131#131

      As part of the same Europe likes us now story, they also said protests would likely be smaller.
      And today we have it otherwise with the largest protest in the history of Mainz! but the Times is still soft on this...

      Here:
      http://nytimes.com/2005/02/23/international/europe/23reax.html?8bl
      Title: Mixed Headlines Greet the Commander

      Europeans watching President Bush's trip are clearly glad to see an American president once thought hostile showing a friendlier, conciliatory side. [They are?!! - my comment] Still, most of the press commentary after Mr. Bush's "new era" speech in Brussels on Monday night was heavily tinged with skepticism about whether the changed tone of American pronouncements would be followed by practical trans-Atlantic cooperation. [this is better]

      Image caption: These demonstrations in Berlin yesterday were harsh, but much of the press comment was softer. [WTF?!]

      What a Bunch of mixed messages.  Whats the story NYTimes?  I think its pretty clear that the Europeans think Bush is a total yahoo!  Jesus.

      onnyturf.com - Political and Community Coverage of NYC

      by atomicBirdsong on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:16:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Corporate media strikes again (none / 0)

        I'm not holding my breath waiting for the American corporate media to break out with any story critical of or embarrassing to BushCo.  If it weren't for the blogs, I wouldn't have any detail on the stories, just the same old watered down crapola.  Then the story just dies, nothing has legs anymore.  Where's the $9 Billion, who's Gannor/Guckert...?

        The Dems in congress can't force committee hearings to give the stories life.  We all agree and celebrate when we prosecute a story, but are we impotent?  What else can we do?

        Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers

        by groggy on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 12:16:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No (none / 0)

          This doesn't have anything to do with corporate media here. The media in Germany and Europe have held a more balanced view of the visit - despite the fact that Germans (and most other Europeans) hate Bush. Most Europeans know they will have to deal with Bush - that's just reality. So they'll see how they can prevent bigger damage, and they'll wait for the next president (hoping this one won't fuck up too bad - at least internationally).

          by jmc on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 02:55:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  San Diego U/T (none / 1)

      Debraz..was surprised any Bush negative coverage got through on the pages of SD U/T print or web site. They really tend to be conservatively biased on almost every issue.

      Isn't it something when the rest of the world can see this Prez for what he truely is and over half of the Americans are walking around like those famous three monkies see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil when it comes to Bushco?

      Has anyone seen any pictures in print of these protestors?

      Frodo failed....Bush has got the ring!

      by Alohaleezy on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:30:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  What else is new? (none / 0)

    If they cannot control it 100% they don't do it. I wonder why is was even set up in the first place.

    Not one dime, not one call, not one knock if Lieberman gets his way.

    by Chamonix on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:00:27 AM PST

  •  Bubble boy (4.00 / 23)

    They'd have to adjust his Ritalin dosage again after another stressful event like MEETING REAL FUCKING PEOPLE.

    by Primordial Ooze on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:00:38 AM PST

  •  Town hall meetings (4.00 / 4)

    I put up a diary today about those "town hall" meetings and the scripts they run under...

    I guess folksy charm doesn't work on Germans.

    Or maybe he just learned that the German word for "town hall" is "Rathaus" (rat=council auf deutsch), and got scared.

    by Shashalnikya on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:01:46 AM PST

    •  Rathausitzungen are avoided (none / 1)

      Germany doesn't really have that much of a tradition. The Rathaussitzungen are reserved for career politicians, something the average Johannes tries to avoid.

      The Mainzer were especially pissed at George for shutting down their city (no customers allowed in the "secure zone" caused a big loss of retail, huge traffic jams), especially since they had good memories of Daddy Bush actually seeking contact with normal Germans.

      This post is best understood if you look at the fnords first.

      by Saint Fnordius on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 02:23:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Another example of Propaganda if you ask me (none / 1)

    This just reeks of the same old line of controling the message.  Most politions control the message by knowing the answers to tough questions not avoiding them.  While Bush like behaviour may be true of alot of politions today he has perfected to an art form.  He takes advantage of his power like no one else has.

    Canadian amazed by and addicted to US politics.

    by Mikecan1978 on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:05:24 AM PST

  •  Germans Know a Nazi (3.68 / 19)

    When they see one. In fact, they ban them from speaking.

    The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

    by easong on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:06:31 AM PST

    •  I don't understand this comment (none / 0)

      and its rating.

      If it's sarcasm, it's pretty bitter one. Meaning, we actually know a Nazi, when we see them, is quite an insult, isn't it? Only Nazis could have this capability. It gets worse, we are Nazis because, we ban them from speaking.

      I think your comment is an insult on Germans.

      May be you explain what you meant to say by that and may be others explain what is so great about the comment?

      Actually I don't know a Nazi when I see one, but I get and idea about one when I read his bullshit.

       

      by mimi on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 04:17:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Are You German? (none / 1)

        Perhaps if you are not, you might ask one about their sensitivity to Nazis. It's pretty pronounced, especially among Germans under 75.

        The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

        by easong on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 04:54:08 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I am German (none / 0)

          and apparently dumb. I don't understand what you wanted to express. I am also slightly below 75, which might mean I simply don't "get" it?

          So, you mean there is a way to be not sensitive to "the Nazi issue"? What would it make me, if I were not? A Neonazi?

          by mimi on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 06:42:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  If Bush Were a Fascist (none / 0)

            Would Americans recognize the fact? With our "news" media? New Europe isn't deluded, and leading New Europ is Germany, a country with a stke in not being duped again.

            The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

            by easong on Thu Feb 24, 2005 at 06:41:22 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  You don't have to be a Nazi to know what one is (none / 0)

        I'm pretty sure the point of the comment was to semi-jokingly say that the Germans recognized Bush as a Nazi. It's a common expression. If someone says, "I know a good football team when I see one," it doesn't mean that person is a good football team, it means they know how to recognize one.

        "I told them on Inauguration Day. I said look into my eyes: no new enhancements." - President Johnny Gentle (Famous Crooner) - Infinite Jest

        by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Thu Feb 24, 2005 at 02:07:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Goebbels (none / 0)

    Is alive and working in the White House Communications Office.

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."- Thomas Jefferson

    by RandyMI on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:11:16 AM PST

  •  An obvious attempt (none / 0)

    to prevent another Rummy type situation where a member of the administration gets ripped a new one and the media replay that endlessly. I got to hand it to Rove, he knows and understands the medias game.

    I just wish Dean understood that game a bit better, he would be president right now if he did.

    by ECH on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:12:42 AM PST

  •  If you can avoid (4.00 / 7)

    negativity you can act as though it doesn't exist.

    Out of sight, out of mind.

    So he can come back talking about the positive experience he had over there and there will be no major media coverage of what the reality is.

    No President has received such universal negative public reaction overseas.  Not that there hasn't been some in the past, but not to this degree.

    On the plus side (I always try to find the silver lining) it appears most of the signs have been directed towards Bush specifically and not American or Americans.

    by JAPA21 on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:23:44 AM PST

    •  Even further... (none / 0)

      I think that his handlers know that Bush must believe all is going well.  He is much more effective when he can be honestly upbeat.  Sort of the "What, me worry?" kinda guy.

      by osf on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:57:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think this is why (none / 0)

        Rove chose Bush, rather than the other way around.

        I am not saying Bush is stupid, because in many ways he is not, but he is directable and very susceptible to Rovian manipulation.

        All Bush cares about is power and Rove promised him that.  Most people would actually want to get different points of view prior to making decisions, but not Bush as he is not inquisitive enough and too black and white.

        Rove uses that, but it does require keeping Bush in an ivory tower of "out of reality" experiences.

        by JAPA21 on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:05:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Agreed. (none / 0)

          I am not sure he is stupid either.  I consider him to be a saleman for the Rovian Republic.  A good salesman has to believe what he is selling, and in order to maintain Bush's belief, Rove et al. keep him insulated.  And they do a damned good job.  

          by osf on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:18:30 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Worry (none / 0)

        You mean this kind of "What, Me Worry?" right?


        [apologies to Art Spiegelman]

        Remember: It's nothing more than the biggest heist in human history.

        by DjW on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 12:10:10 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Bush specifically? (4.00 / 3)

      On the plus side (I always try to find the silver lining) it appears most of the signs have been directed towards Bush specifically and not American or Americans.

      I gather that's true but less true than it used to be. They were willing to write off the first 4 years as a mistake and/or a bad call by the Supreme Court, but the 2004 election makes it harder to overlook. I think most still like us as people, and admire our (supposed) ideals, but they've gone from thinking that Bush was just a mistake to feeling like there's something systemically wrong with the US.

      It's worrisome to share ones world with a 400 kilo gorilla. No doubt it's really worrisome to share it with a 400 kilo gorilla that may be rabid.

      "All progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw

      by Bearpaw on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:03:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agree (none / 0)

        and one of my biggest fears was that all Americans and Bush would be wrapped together.  My comment was more to the point that that hasn't happened quite as much yet, or at least to the degree I thought it would.

        by JAPA21 on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:06:45 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  In polls all over Europe (none / 1)

        the percentage of people who say they try not to "buy American" is going up and up, and it is well over 50%. Of course, Bu$hco doesn't mind this; it only hurts American workers. One more cog in the strategy to tank the economy.

        by S from Van on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 12:44:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Recommended (none / 0)

    I can't believe that there are STILL people in this country who have NO IDEA that Bush's public events are entirely in front of people who have pledged loyalty to the President.

    At least Europe knows the truth about this President, maybe they can send e-mails to all their friends in the U.S. (not likely!)

    Why is this story not on CNN? Damn you, MSM!

    All Californians are victims of H8.

    by lalawguy on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:27:15 AM PST

  •  Town Hall canceled, but meeting Handpicked Youths (4.00 / 6)

    From your link:
    He won't be meeting with the people here, but he will be meeting with a handpicked bunch of Germany's future business and political leaders...handpicked by several US organizations with offices in Germany...young co-workers from blue chip companies like automaker DaimlerChrysler, Deutsche Bank or the consultancy McKinsey. The fact that two American organizations are the ones managing the guest list suggests that the chat won't be overly critical of Bush.

    One participant in the Bush round is 31-year-old Katrin Heuel of Berlin, an employee of the conservative Aspen Institute.

    ...the round has been closed to journalists -- ensuring that any embarrassments will be confined to a small group.

    Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

    by bronte17 on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:28:25 AM PST

    •  Oh boy... (none / 0)

      So, Germans who have our outsourced jobs?  Grreeat. They should just love bush.

      Where are the dems heading? Not left, not right -- but FORWARD! Chaaaaaarrrrrggggge!

      by Zapata28 on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:41:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't understand your comment (none / 1)

        What do you mean Germans with our outsourced jobs. American companies don't outsource to Germany, labor is paid better and has many more rights in Germany than in the US. The US is the cheap labor economy. Bush's plan to stop outsourcing is to lower worker pay and protections to the point it will make no sense to outsource.

        Daimerchrysler and Deutsche Bank are German companies.

        by friendofliberty on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:12:05 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  outsourced dittoheads (none / 0)

          "but he will be meeting with a handpicked bunch of Germany's future business and political leaders"

          He does the same thing here. I think the comment was just a joke.

          "There is only a one in six billion chance that you actually exist"

          by Blacklantern on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:39:40 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It was tongue in cheek... (none / 0)

            But I see the idiocy of my comment, indeed.

            Essentially, he found some people who gain from the US economy.  Or, rather, a FAR CRY from the butcher in the village.

            Where are the dems heading? Not left, not right -- but FORWARD! Chaaaaaarrrrrggggge!

            by Zapata28 on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:44:47 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Germany has her own problems (none / 0)

        And, the German economy is structured around the banks and this tight mechanism of oversight which has good and bad points.

        Plus, we have to remember that Germany has just gone through a reunification of East and West which cost billions.  The rich west and the grey east...

        And the Turks.  

        Germany makes an honest and earnest attempt in dealing with these issues.

        Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

        by bronte17 on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 01:53:58 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  CNN coverage (none / 0)

      They had a little of the question/answer period from this "roundtable" this morning on CNN.  Everyone around the table seemed pretty emotionless, probably dumbstruck by Bush's wondering answers.

      I was surprised that CNN showed some shots of the protestors, including signs that labelled Bush as the number 1 terrorist.

      by tomcat on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:12:00 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Closed to Journalists? (none / 1)

      So that means FOX NEWS will be there to record it for the next round of propaganda about how Bush was accepted by the German People, despite what their government may say about him and in contrast the measly number of radical left wing protesters.  

      Centrist is just another word for not making up your mind!

      by David in Burbank on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 01:04:31 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Old News (none / 0)


    Newsweek was out with this over the weekend:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6999383/site/newsweek/

    I'll only bathe at Petapoluza!

    by Bill in Portland Maine on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:40:21 AM PST

    •  So what (none / 1)


      Most people don't read Newsweek online (and my copy of the magazine won't arrive until today or Thurs. because of the holiday).

       And this shows us the German perspective on it.

       The Bush admin was stupid to schedule it and then cancel it.

       Looks like he can't take criticical questions.  

      Which is true. The best interviews with Bush have been by reporters from other countries.

      He'd rather put on a show in front of safe, friendly audience or be interviewed by Brit Hume or Field & Stream.

      Tigerbeat | photos

      by ari on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:07:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Everything you say is true, except... (none / 0)


        I contend that many Kossacks read Newsweek online or buy it at the newsstand Monday.  My point is only that this shouldn't be treated as a hot-off-the-griddle, they-just-canceled-it-this-morning story.  To make their deadline, Newsweek must have found out about this nearly a week ago.

        And from the article, it sounds like the Germans acted as enablers...they just quietly agreed to stop talking about it.  Very diplomatic.

        I do hope that the Germans are having fun mocking our cowardly president.  He deserves every "Schweinhundt" he gets.

        I'll only bathe at Petapoluza!

        by Bill in Portland Maine on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:36:06 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Large Mouthed Bass (none / 0)

        Rumor is Field & Stream is a really independent  magazine and might ask some really hard questions on large mouthed bass.  So -- let's just leave it at Brit Hume, His Supineness.

        Democrats, Make it Work. You have until November to bring your electorate in.

        by xanthe on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:57:59 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  oooh, the germans! (4.00 / 6)

    "Ooh, the Germans are mad at me. I'm so scared!"

    by thirdparty on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:47:20 AM PST

  •  "W" stands for "Wimp" n/t (none / 1)

    -4.00, -5.79 | Visit Illinois Reason.

    by thesill on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 10:58:49 AM PST

  •  Why am I not surprised? (none / 0)

    Especially when it could have been captured on the internets...

    "Sir, we've already lost the dock." A Zion Lieutenant to Commander Lock, The Matrix Revolutions

    by AuntiePeachy on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:01:58 AM PST

  •  W: Mr. Gannonstein, thanks for the question (none / 0)

    Maybe there aren't enough Jeff Gannons in Germany, or should I say Gannonstein?

    I've seen the future and I've left it behind - Ozzy

    by bejammin075 on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:02:27 AM PST

  •  GWB (none / 0)

    better known as CHICKEN-HAWK,pluck,pluck,pluck!!!
    PEACE!

    by PC on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:05:58 AM PST

  •  sheesh (none / 0)

    remarkably, he has this reputation (in certain circles) as some tough-guy-cowboy-type.  and yet he's afraid of everyone, save his own yes men.  for shame.

    by chester on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:06:27 AM PST

    •  Yes, yes chester (4.00 / 2)

      Your quite right, again sir. As always. Yes, yes, yes. Couldn't agree more.

      "She was very young,he thought,...she did not understand that to push an inconvenient person over a cliff solves nothing." -1984

      by aggressiveprogressive on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:19:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well, he did pull his (none / 0)

      bodyguard from the crowd that time in South America. Of course that wasn't tough-guy, just stupid-guy tactics, but bet the wringers loved it; enhances his codpiece persona. Sorry I digress.

      "conservatives are the worshipers of dead radicals".

      by gandalf on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 05:18:22 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  diaried earlier (none / 0)

    from earlier today

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/2/23/94620/8987

    by sammysdot on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:06:39 AM PST

    •  Sorry, weird, I searched, didn't see your diary.. (4.00 / 2)

      ...and did searches with "Spiegel" and "Mainz" to make sure it hadn't already been done - and it came up empty.

         Oh, well, it's good that we keep up with each other's work. And weird, excellent catch if it was your first posting.

      "We should pay attention to that man behind the curtain."

      by Ed Tracey on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:24:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's time to question reporters on their use of (4.00 / 8)

    the term "town hall".  In what kind of town hall are meetings of hand-picked audience members held?  It would be more accurate to refer to "Soviet-style party loyalist meetings", but I haven't seen anyone use that phrase, because it's not in the talking points that are spoon fed to the reporters.  There's no reason why "town hall" shouldn't be dropped from all reports of these meetings.

    by bdbd on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:07:04 AM PST

    •  Just not the Same (none / 0)

      Today during a Staged Event, President Bush pronounced himeself king. The fawing audience of prescreened supports hailed his wisdom and leadership.  "Bush haters just don't get it, they are all going to hell," said one woman with  a "W" tatooed on her forehead.

      Centrist is just another word for not making up your mind!

      by David in Burbank on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 12:57:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Right, reframe it correctly (none / 1)

      "Town hall" has such wonderful connotatons of old style meetings where anyone in the local community could come to discuss the issues of the day and to make democratic decisions.  The Bush use of the term is a severe misuse and abuse of it's original and wholesome meaning.  

      We should call the meetings what they are: closed, loyalty publicity stunts (although I'd like to come up with a zippier term).

      Anger can be power. You know that you can use it.

      by sciguy on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 02:23:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Do these things work? (none / 0)

    I mean, clearly the objective is to beam back happy images of a happy Bush engaging in relaxed banter with happy, normal Germans in awe of our Dear Leader. But as with his fake town halls here, I wonder how truly effective they are, since the news reports I've seen of them in the past tend to point out how carefully stage-managed they were.

    "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

    by Septic Tank on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:07:41 AM PST

  •  You can't spell coWard... (4.00 / 3)

    ...without "W"

    This message has not been approved by the corporate media.

    by jre2k8 on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:10:44 AM PST

  •  the meeting (none / 0)

    from the spiegel article i understood that the US-side set up the meeting, heavily scripted, as a kind of PR gag.

    according to the article, it was the GERMAN side who cancelled the meeting out of scare somebody would embarass dubya with his/her questions. instead, they set up an alternative meeting with "ideologically pure" young managers from some big corporations doing business in germany.

    from the looks of it there is quite a big deal of need to suck up to the americans on schroeders side. wonder why that would be.

    by pigbert on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:11:45 AM PST

    •  Shaking hands (none / 0)

      In one of the pictures in the article I linked to above is one of a smiling Schroeder and Bush shaking hands.  Scroll down to where there are three small pictures with the text below reading "Klicken Sie auf ein Bild, um die Fotostrecke zu starten (11 Bilder). "  "Click on a picture to start the photo sequence (11 pictures)."

      by NHliberal on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:25:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Clinton . . . (none / 0)


       . . . if he had heard about such a stunt, meaning "German officials" cancelling such an event in order to spare him the possible embarassment of having to answer a difficult question would have told his host to please put it back on the schedule, not said, "Oh! Thank you, thank you, thank you!"

       Don'tcha think?

      BenGoshi
      _________________

       

      "I have to go now. I feel . . . sticky." Anthony Bourdain

      by BenGoshi on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:30:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  A little late (none / 1)

    This was actually in the news on Sunday and covered at Left I on the News

    Eli Stephens
    Left I on the News
    "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor." - Desmond Tutu

    by elishastephens on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:11:54 AM PST

  •  I'm not surprised (4.00 / 4)

    I caught the live CNN coverage of Bush's speech to the troops in Germany this morning. As the cameras panned the crowds during applause moments, not a lot of the troops were applauding. Some looked downright bored and pissed off.

    "I have lived with several Zen masters -- all of them cats." - Eckhart Tolle

    by catnip on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:14:41 AM PST

  •  Perhaps the debate-Pod isn't working again n/t (none / 0)

    Four Legs Good

    by Spud1 on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:14:46 AM PST

  •  Yeah....... (none / 0)

    ahhh, ain't freedom and truth and liberty wonderful???

    by JenD on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:15:02 AM PST

  •  Somebody tipped him that Ted Hitler would be there (3.80 / 5)

    Tug

    Impeach Cheney now.

    by Tug on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:15:55 AM PST

  •  Is Guckart a German name? (none / 0)

    Maybe he has some relatives from the fatherland who can fill his shoes?

    Sí Se Puede Cambiar

    by pontechango on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:15:56 AM PST

  •  In other news.... (4.00 / 4)

    ... scientists have discovered that grass is green when watered , the sky is blue when there are no clouds and holding one's hand in a pot of boiling water hurts.

    One flower is made of the whole cosmos. - Thich Nhat Hahn

    by Espumoso on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:16:55 AM PST

  •  The only surprise here... (none / 0)

    is that they thought they could pull off a Beer Hall -- er, I meant "Town Hall" meeting on this trip in the first place. Did they think they would be allowed to screen the participants for loyalty like they do at home?

    Bumperstickers -- George W. Bush: Moral Midget; Howard Dean Is My Chairman; etc.

    by PatrioticallyIncorrect on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:18:14 AM PST

  •  So he can send kids off to die (none / 0)

    for no good reason, but he doesn't have the courage to even talk to meet with everyday people? We need to start arranging for a costumed chicken to follow Bush everywhere he goes to highlight his cowardice.

    by wdrath on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:21:32 AM PST

  •  Bush could have been SO PRESIDENTIAL (none / 1)

    Here's what I would relish:

    How about Bush stands up and says: "Ich bin ein Hamburger."

    http://presidentsintern.blogspot.com

    by nancy jo on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:22:34 AM PST

  •  Bubble Boy barnstorming (4.00 / 2)

    This entire presidency is all Kabuki... there is nothing of merit or substance in anything public. It is all about getting media coverage to push their Luntz tested message, to Rove crafted planning, to reach its patronage initiated goals.

    They don't want person-to-person politicking in any real sense of the word, they want to get media coverage on their terms so their script gets read aloud in the media.

    They don't give a shit what our own citizens have to say on policy issues at all. They only field test reactions to their message, in order to move public discussion (and hence thought) towards their pre-established end-state.

    cheers,

    Mitch Gore

    January 20, 2009... the end of an error.

    by Lestatdelc on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:24:35 AM PST

    •  So why is it a surprise? (none / 0)

      They don't give a shit what our own citizens have to say on policy issues, so why would they give a fuck about what real citizens in another country have to say or think about U.S. policy...?

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      January 20, 2009... the end of an error.

      by Lestatdelc on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:26:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Couldn't they plant an earpiece (none / 0)

    in W like they did during the debates?!

    "Enough!"

    by Barbara H on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:30:34 AM PST

    •  That's what I was wondering too (none / 1)

      Must be that the ol' wireless-Rove backpack he sported in the debates is in the shop for repairs this week.  What a shame.

      "I love Pat Robertson because he teaches kids morality. He teaches kids, 'If someone doesn't agree with you, ask God to kill them.'" -Jon Stewart

      by MostlyRussky on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:38:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Germans have played the totalitaran game (none / 0)

    before.
    This speaks more than volumes, it speaks vaults about the nature of the Bush regime.

    You cannot present a monster with a flower. Nora Astorga.

    by vivens fons on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:32:30 AM PST

  •  Bush Chickens Out in Mainz (none / 0)

    So ein Feigling!

    by planetsean on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:35:15 AM PST

  •  almost totalitarian freedom (none / 1)

    the BBC's James Webb gets his digs in, too
    see his diary here:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4290241.stm

    regarding the extreme security measures for Bush in Germany, he says:

    "It's almost totalitarian in its reach and efficiency: the motorways are closed, whole towns we pass on the way from Frankfurt airport have been cleared of people. Our German colleagues say everyone on the motorcade route was told to stay indoors.

    The result may be more secure but it is eerie nonetheless - a political meeting without any public involvement. Freedom on the march but no-one free to see it."

    by sammysdot on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:39:08 AM PST

  •  Ooh (none / 0)

    "Ooh, the Germans are mad at me.  I'm so scared!  Ooh, the Germans!"
             - C. Montgomery Burns

    by sba on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:43:13 AM PST

  •  There goes the neighborhood . . . (4.00 / 2)

    This report from Sofia talks about the extreme lock-down measures taken so that Bush can have his little "visit" to the neighborhood:

    Unprecedented security measures . . . bringing Rhine-Main area, one of the most heavily populated regions of Germany, to a virtual state of emergency.

    Four motorways are being completely closed, rail travel restricted, navigation of the rivers Rhine and Main halted, schools and local offices closed down. The historical centre of the city of Mainz will be totally blocked off. Helicopters will fly overhead, while the city is besieged by police units and snipers.

    [Thousands of workers foreced to take a holiday, air space over Frankfurt closed for an hour, private planes grounded.]

    US snipers will be posted on balconies and roofs along the route from the airport to Mainz and its city centre-this in a country that normally forbids foreign security forces, even bodyguards, from carrying weapons in public. Days in advance, US Secret Service agents have been surveying the region, and huge armoured cars, helicopters and hundreds of American "specialists" have been flown in.

    A high security wall has been erected in the Mainz city centre around the historic cathedral, the castle, the regional parliament, the state chancellery and the world famous Gutenberg Museum.

    The city centre has been criss-crossed with barricades and placed under the control of armed policemen. Thousands of residents and those working in the city centre can leave or gain access only on foot, after showing their IDs. . . .

    Some 1,300 gully and manhole covers have been welded shut, while free-standing mail boxes, garbage cans, electrical connection boxes, and even bicycles have been removed. City residents have been expressly forbidden from going onto their balconies or looking out an open window. They have been banned from parking their cars either in the street or in their own garages. Many garages have been sealed. . . .

    I found the whole story over at Soj's excellent blog this morning.

    And we wonder why the Germans are annoyed? Presumably, similar measures were taken in Brussels and other locales. Way to win friends, Dim Son.

    I'd like to calculate the total expense, to Germany and the U.S., of this "visit," but there's not enough time left in the day.

    If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.--A Boston cabbie, to Gloria Steinem, in the 1970s

    by Mnemosyne on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:48:09 AM PST

  •  Maybe a democrat should (4.00 / 4)

    do a town hall meeting. It would show the world that the oposition is alive and well, and can take whatever anyone can dish out. It would also make Bush look weak and pathetic.

    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." Seneca

    by Ralfast on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:59:57 AM PST

  •  Should anyone be surprised? (none / 0)

    He did this on his visit to Canada as well.. he would not put in an appearance at Parliament to speak for fear of being heckled (or at least.. hs officials were afraid of being heckled) and he spoke to a hand-picked audience at Halifax... and even there... his appluase lines were lukewarm at best

    Heck.. even Reagan spoke at Parliament.. and he DID get heckled.. but he made a joke about it and brought the House down.

    Canadian Progressive Bloggers

    by tribe34 on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 11:59:58 AM PST

  •  Potemkin crowds (4.00 / 3)

    I don't get it...why can't they just fly passionate Bush supporters over, and dress them up in Lederhosen or something?  I mean get creative, jeez.

    by Bobo62 on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 12:03:20 PM PST

  •  absolute hipocracy (none / 0)

    This is what this guy is about.

    by JZILLA on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 12:04:08 PM PST

  •  Apparently (none / 1)

    a lot of Germans - unlike some American Dem Reps and Senators, not to mention ALL Rep Reps and Sens and 51% of the electorate - don't secretly believe they are going to suddenly disappear in the Rapture.

    by S from Van on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 12:19:41 PM PST

  •  Coward (none / 0)

    That's the meme.

    Bush is a COWARD!

    "I just had the basic view of the American public -- it can't be that bad out there." Marine Travis Williams after 11 members of his squad were killed.

    by Steven D on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 12:27:21 PM PST

  •  This cowardly act will not stand. n/t (none / 0)

    You can't be on the team, if you're not in the choir. Sorry.

    by peeder on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 12:28:28 PM PST

  •  Heh (none / 0)

    There's a suprise.

    technology. politics. culture. life. dimensionsix dot net.
    "the christian right is neither." -- moby

    by storm2k on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 12:31:04 PM PST

  •  If he'd just listened to me... (none / 0)

    I woulda told The Boy that he'd never find enough people in Germany willing to hold up the three-finger salute and holler "Sieg Howdy!" as he entered the "town hall."  The nerve of those Germans - actually demanding that a public forum NOT be pre-screened and open to invited ringers only. Where's Jeff Gannon when ya need him?

    ...and there was BoyGeorge & The Dick, right there in HellBelly Heaven, holding forth among the PNAC Pissants...

    by UncleBub on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 12:37:21 PM PST

  •  Where is MSM? (none / 0)

    When will the mainstream media pick this up? Never is my guess. They are so in the bag they never report anything that contradicts Bush's "character" narrative.

    They never will report on what a coward he is. We are in deep, deep trouble in this country.

    by mysteve on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 12:49:16 PM PST

    •  Exactly (none / 0)

      It is such a joke to watch the news anymore, especially Cable News. Their main stories today are gushing over Bush's trip to Europe and how well he is being received...(gag) or the Michael Jackson trial or the upcoming Oscars.

      Either it is the Corporate part of the media telling them to soften the news and give Bush a pass, or they are being lazy, or they want to please this administration out of fear of being shut out by this adminstration or ALL of the Above!

      I do wonder if the tone will change if in 2006, Dems pick up several seats as then they will need to be more fair to Democrats to get those stories and interviews they desire. But I doubt it as the MSM roasted Clinton and Democrats for years now.

      Liberals In PA Group

      by wishingwell on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 12:53:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  In the first year of the Third Reich, (none / 0)

        1933-34, German newspapers lost about half their circulation.  I wonder if that's what will happen to the corporate media under Bush.

        The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

        by lysias on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 04:31:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Of course, that is Shrub (none / 1)

    It must be scripted, it must go according to his wishes, and the crowd must be Pro Bush. He cannot handle dissension or debate ( see Debate #1 when Kerry got him irritated and angry). His advisors simply do not prepare him for how to handle criticism and tough questions. They spoil him.
    It is pretty well reported and sadly accepted by many that there is no room for Dissension or Disagreement in the Bush White House.

    Bush does not and never believed  in a Government OF the People, By the People, and For the People.
    He believes it is a government controlled by him and those who support him.

    Liberals In PA Group

    by wishingwell on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 12:49:28 PM PST

    •  Per Howard Fineman, as a kid Bush would just (none / 0)

      change the rules or take his ball home if he didn't get his way in games.  Nothing changes.  By the way, this story is from a Fineman article on MSNBC's website this p.m.  He calls Bush arrogant and more (re: the tapes).  What happened?  Fineman sees the light?

      by maebe on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 04:09:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  How do YOU spell chicken! (none / 0)

    Yet another example of Bush's willingness to take on any fight he knows he can win easily,

    North Korea - no way - they might have teeth.  Iraq - sure - there's a country we can crush easily.

    What a lame-ass chicken he is.

    Apparently I have made the unbelievably naive error of overestimating the intelligence of the American people.

    by Citizen Clark on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 01:05:46 PM PST

  •  Auf Deutsch (none / 1)

    Kuechenscheiss!

    (German for Chicken s---.)

    What a bad day for America.

    Paul
    Retired in Oregon

    Gore Obama in 2008!

    by paulpease on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 01:19:46 PM PST

  •  So much for Bush's "charm offensive" (4.00 / 2)

    Bush's "charm offensive" in Europe only has it half right--he has no charm, but is plenty offensive.

    Note:  I used American spelling so I wouldn't flummox all of you, but I'm in Switzerland and Bush isn't much welcome here, either.

    Bush is not only a "Feigling", he is also a "Schurke" (thug).  And Germany has definitely said "nicht willkommen" to der Führer der Vereinigten Staaten.

    Hm, seems like "just say 'no'" translates quite well into the German (Sagen Sie nein!).

    There are three kinds of people: Those who see; those who see when they are shown; those who do not see.

    by Shadowthief on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 01:22:01 PM PST

    •  I doubt that Germans would use (none / 0)

      both words you mention "Feigling" or "Schurke" to characterize their feelings about Bush. It's something else.

      by mimi on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 04:05:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, we don't want to use THOSE words... (none / 0)

        ...this isn't the Free Republican, after all.  We're the white hats!

        (And the Germans are actually rather polite--but they HATE having people insult their intelligence, as Rumsfeld did on that infamous visit to the 39th Security Conferrence in Munich (February 2003)when old Rummy expected Joschka Fischer, the German Foreign Minister, to believe the childish, transparent lies Rummy was peddling about Iraq.

        Herr Fischer's famous retort was the opening line of his speech at the conference, which followed Rummy's:

        "Excuse me, I am not convinced."

        Notice that he said Entschuldigen sie BEFORE he called Rummy a liar.  I would have opened with "What the f*** are you playing at, mate?"  But that's probably why the diplomatic corps is not for me.

         

        There are three kinds of people: Those who see; those who see when they are shown; those who do not see.

        by Shadowthief on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 08:40:48 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  How dare he... (none / 0)

    not listen to the German people. I mean, he always listens to us Ameri...oh wait.

    Truth, Rants And Rambling

    by TruthNM on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 01:25:39 PM PST

  •  Chris Bowers from MYDD on MSNBC at 5EDT (none / 0)

    So he says on mydd.com top talk about this issue with a blogger from... POWERLINE...

    Damn! I have to work!

    Sing the changes

    by jgkojak on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 01:30:37 PM PST

  •  He didn't want to face this question: (none / 0)

    "Haben Sie kein Takt, Herr President?  Endlich, haben Sie kein Takt?"

    "Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." - Voltaire

    by DrFrankLives on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 01:31:18 PM PST

  •  If I were him, I would have cancelled also (none / 0)

    So maybe he's not as stupid as I thought...

    Let's be honest.

    by diplomatic on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 01:52:05 PM PST

    •  Eisen Mein Scheizer or something (none / 0)

      Even the Germans with their awful cuisine can't stomache a second of Dubya's swill, that says something because the food over there is about as bad as it gets in the Western half of Europe.

      George W. Bush is the Ricky Martin of Presidents. In ten years nobody will ever admit that they supported him.

      by john in seattle on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 01:59:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  yes... (none / 0)

      but than again you probably wouldn't be stupid enough to also say "The World speaks with one voice."

      (-9.13, -8.10)

      by Florida Democrat on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 02:00:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  This is all beginning to come together (none / 0)

      Bush is a puppet to Cheney, Wolfowitz, et al. They know they can't put him on autopilot, they tried during the debates but it didn't work.

      I think I've said it elsewhere on KOS, but Bush himself is not the problem. He's a worker drone. He's the newscaster, the friendly face that the voters responded to. It's the people behind the scenes, the people back in DC that got the faxed version of the day's agenda who immediately picked up the phone to tell Schroder's people to cancel the town hall.

      "Let us not seek the Republican answer or the Democratic answer, but the right answer." -John F. Kennedy

      by Vestal Vespa on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 03:20:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hitler (none / 0)

    (Adolf, not Ted) didn't allow any free press conferences either. Hmmmm.

    "Wide acceptance of an idea is not proof of its validity." Dan Brown

    by Bulldawg on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 02:09:33 PM PST

  •  Just don't say anything about the war! (none / 0)

    The Iraq war, that is.

    What a pissant Bush is.  Sometimes I wonder if he's even aware of these, hrrm, efforts on his behalf to shield him from unnecessary criticism; sometimes I think that his handlers keep their efforts from him as much as they possibly can so that Bush really does go to these painfully orchestrated PR set pieces thinking that he's meeting real people who love him instead of carefully selected automatons who had to sign a loyalty oath first.

    I also just remembered another Republican President who liked globetrotting, especially when things started to get a bit warm for him back home, President Nixon.  Were his visits with foreign dignitaries also heavily scripted?

    Finally is there any word about the security arrangements for his European trip?  I was furious when I learned that, in a visit to Turkey, they practically had to close down the Straits of the Bosphorus.  Any more outrages like that going on?

    by Ernest Tomlinson on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 02:23:11 PM PST

  •  heh (none / 0)

    May I just add, from my peanut gallery seat:

    "GROW A PAIR, BUSHIE... YOU LOSER!!!!"

    A left-of-center blow-harded member of the goose-stepping blog-stapo since 2004.

    by floundericiousMI on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 02:40:19 PM PST

  •  Cockroaches abhor the light. n/t (4.00 / 2)

    "... if you wish to know how libertarians regard the State and any of its acts, simply think of the State as a criminal band..." -- Murray Rothbard

    by bradspangler on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 02:43:35 PM PST

  •  AMERICAN SCLM EMBARESSED (none / 0)

    I suppose that the reason we have not and will not see this reported anywhere in the U.S. media is because the Germans have shamed them.  As has been clear for so long, the American press NEVER calls Bush out on his scripted "town hall" meetings.

    Thank God (and Al Gore) for the internets.

    by minndem04 on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 02:49:21 PM PST

  •  "Good Germans" (none / 1)

    Finally -- the phrase "good German" has a chance to mean something; a chance to confront their past, as someday we will have to confront ours.

    It is possible for humans to learn from history; it's just that it's usually too late for the hundred thousand, 6 million, or 60 million whose lives paid for the lesson...

    If a thousand men were not to pay their tax bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State...

    by HenryDavid on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 02:53:04 PM PST

  •  Bullshit, Bush isn't afraid of the Germans (none / 0)

    the problem was they couldn't find a simultaneous translator who could understand his speech.

    As I posted over on C+J earlier, I heard part of his news conference from this morning. When speaking of Iran he actually called them "Moolars". I ask you what a dumbfuck.

    The problem is not fear of crowds or fear of tough questions. His handlers are afraid that when he opens his mouth he sounds like a complete idiot who can't even speak American, let alone English.

    Going, Going, Going.....(in less than 12 months no more Bliar)

    by NeutralObserver on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 03:45:15 PM PST

  •  I can't decide if (none / 0)

    girly-man or coward is more accurate.

    vachon

    by vachon on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 04:13:38 PM PST

  •  Emperor Bush is naked, pretends he isn't (none / 0)

    Bush prefers not to be in a room with honest thinking, because someone might point out the obvious - the man is naked!

    "This trial is a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham." Fielding Mellish

    by Bailey Savings and Loan on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 04:24:56 PM PST

  •  Is this cancelation (none / 0)

    making news? What's the official excuse for canceling? Security reasons?

    Bush and the neo-cons learned important lessons from Goebbels. So did the Germans. Unfortunately, 50+ years later, not the same lessons.

    by LAS on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 04:39:15 PM PST

  •  Why should Germans differ from Democrats? (none / 0)

    Bush is a sensitive soul.  He can't be confronted--weak ego you know. In our case we are being denied a counstitutional right to seek redress from our leaders.

    "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..."

    by waztec on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 04:44:11 PM PST

  •  Bring...It.....On!!!! (none / 1)

    And this is our Texas tuff-guy that said to the Iraqi insurgents, "Bring it on!"  Hmph. I guess it's easier to say when someone else will actually be in the line of fire.

    In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

    by Paul in Berkeley on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 05:16:36 PM PST

  •  Lehrer ran a few shots of Kennedy, Reagan, and (none / 0)

    Clinton on their tours to Germany. I was so proud to see how they were received there. Clinton's crowd filled the the entire square - an awesome sight. Now all I feel is shame. Almost feel bad for Dubya - not.

    "conservatives are the worshipers of dead radicals".

    by gandalf on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 05:26:52 PM PST

  •  topics Bush might want to avoid in an open forum.. (none / 0)

    Let's make a list! :-)
    Here's my top pick for a topic Bush could be so scared of they would cancel an entire major public appearance to dodge the possibility of it being asked:
    1.  The mysterious wargames on 9/11 that have been almost totally unacknowledged, with the exception of this little gem in the AP.  Definately a question the Bushies would love to avoid (it doesn't take much for the official 9/11 story to fall apart once you take a close enough look, and the existence of those wargames could be be a trigger for a widespread 2nd look at the event of the day).

    Ok, that's my top pick.  Please add to the list!  

    by glooperoo on Wed Feb 23, 2005 at 05:36:29 PM PST

  •  German Town Hall Meeting (none / 0)

    It is unfortunate that it was cancelled, but we'd never have seen much of it anyway.  It would, however, have been fun to listen to the Prez being yelled at in German.

    "You are the rest of the world." J. Krishnamurti

    by TomChicago on Thu Feb 24, 2005 at 03:23:09 AM PST

Permalink | 246 comments