Daily Kos

San Diego Bishop Says NO to Funeral for Gay Man, my friend.

by SanDiegoSteve

Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 07:28:15 AM PDT

This is an outrage!  John McCusker, a friend and leader in San Diego's gay community, died this weekend of a heart condition.  The funeral was originally planned at University of San Diego, a Catholic university, but the Bishop thought it "inconsistent" with Catholic teachings.  

I hope people bombard the church expressing their outrage.  The contact info is below with a link to the extended story...

Update: Thank you to everyone for your incredible comments and support. Keep the letters, faxes and calls coming. John's service at St. Paul's Episcopal Church was amazing. More than 900 people attended with about a dozen TV cameras and reporters surrounding the church. Police were visible outside the church. At one point in the service. the incredible Very Reverend Scott Richardson welcome everyone and said "all are welcome to eat at our table". More below the fold...

Update cont: He asked John's parents to stand and turn to see the more than 900 people packed into the church, hundreds standing. It was an amazing moment and while I am not a member of any organized church, felt incredibly connected to a greater power. I can't tell you how wonderful it has been to read everyone's comments. I hope to share many with John's family and friends.http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20050318-9999-1n18funeral.html

CALL  Bishop Robert Brom and tell him what you think: 1-858-490-8200 but I request that you show them the respect in your call that they have failed to show John in his death.

WRITE:  3888 Paducah Drive, PO Box 85728, San Diego, CA  92186-5728.

FAX:  858-490-8272

Please recommend this diary!

Tags: (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 195 comments

  •  The RC church wouldn't do this to the mob (4.00 / 14)

    so why do it to a gay person?

    Realitybased.Info Editor's Blog at New Reality-cheX.BlogSpot.com

    by RealityBasedInfo on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 07:34:09 AM PDT

    •  homophobia and bigotry... (4.00 / 10)

      There is no other reason.  His family are wealthy Catholics and the suggestion that this is not because he is gay is bullshit.

      San Diego Steve "Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion."

      by SanDiegoSteve on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 07:36:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  They did it to my grandfather too... (4.00 / 3)

      ...because he was a Freemason.

      Pathetic.

      Fool me once, I'll punch you in the fucking head.

      by HollywoodOz on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 09:14:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I have always wondered... (none / 0)

        What exactly IS a freemason?  The cemetary where my grandfather is buried is littered with tombstones with the freemason symbol on it but I've never really been able to find someone to tell me what they are?

        There is no Dawn but Dawn.

        by DawnG on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:10:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  DawnG, there is so much history on (none / 0)

          Free Masons you might want to go to your local library or bookstore. My Dad is a Mason. The Mason's do not support any particuliar church. An individual Mason may choose to be a member of a Church but the organization is not faith based.

          "Liberals feel unworthy of their possessions. Conservatives feel they deserve everything they've stolen." Mort Sahl

          by maggiemae on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 12:05:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Close, but not exactly right. (none / 0)

            I am not a mason, nor do I play one on TV, but I had a friend in college who was very taken by them.  His story was that one had to both believe in some kind of God, and also that one had to be a member of a religion which had a book.  The temples have the books of the religions of their members on the altar.  In some lodges in the Far East there are four or five books on the altar.

            You cannot be an atheist mason, or so I am told.

            Codex Gratia Codici

            by guleblanc on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 01:59:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Not according to my Pops- (none / 0)

              A Mason has to believe in God. That's it. Nothing to do with books.

              He's been a Mason for over 30 years, so I'm gonna go with him on this.

              "Liberals feel unworthy of their possessions. Conservatives feel they deserve everything they've stolen." Mort Sahl

              by maggiemae on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 03:18:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Masons are (none / 0)

          a fraternal order.  Typically people who dislike them argue it's because they have secret rituals and such.  

          by MissLaura on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 12:27:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  google "freemason" (none / 0)

          you'll find out a lot about this fraternal order.

          Impeach the whole bunch!!!

          by regis on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 01:32:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Roman Catholic animosity to Freemasonry, (none / 0)

          according to some sources, goes back to the Crusades, when the Knights Templar and Hospitalers were eventually perceived to be threats to Rome's power base. History has it that the last surviving knights of the Crusades went to Scotland with the Holy Grail, no less, after the Holy Roman Empire decided their bases in Rhodes and Malta jeopardized Mediterranean commerce.
          Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose, non?

          Everyone will start to cheer when you put on your sailin' shoes.

          by hndrcks on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 02:03:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Freemasons (none / 1)

          Opened up a can of worms with that question:
          The masons are a fraternal order that, according to many credible accounts, represent a divergent history of the Christian Church dating from the time of Jesus that has always been at odds with the Catholic Church. In many ways this fight is like the Shia and the Sunni where one group believed the Church was inherited to one person and the other group believed they inherited the "true church." Needless to say the Roman Catholic Church believes it is the direct ancestor of the Christian Church from Jesus to Paul to Peter and then to the papacy. The best book I've read on the Freemasons is "The Second Messiah" as well as "The Hiram Key." One of the more interesting theories in the book is that America itself was founded as a refuge for Freemasons trying to escape persecution and that is why America was so profoundly secular- a tradition that is being threatened. Freemason rituals are said to contain the secret history of this church, the full story is only available to those who reach the highest levels, and supposedly includes the truth about the Holy Grail which is believed to be Mary Magdalene (a theory that "The DaVinci Code" picks up on and spins into a very good read).

          by Joe Willy on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 02:28:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Leopold Bloom was a Mason (none / 0)

          Nosey Flynn made swift passes in the air with juggling fingers. He winked.

          -- He's in the craft, he said.

          -- Do you tell me so? Davy Byrne said.

          -- Very much so, Nosey Flynn said. Ancient free and accepted order. He's an excellent brother. Light, life and love, by God. They give him a leg up. I was told that by a-- well, I won't say who.

          -- Is that a fact?

          -- O, it's a fine order, Nosey Flynn said. They stick to you when you're down. I know a fellow was trying to get into it, but they're as close as damn it. By God they did right to keep the women out of it.

          [ from James Joyce's Ulysses, 1922 ]

          When I was growing up and going to Catholic School, we were warned never to join the Masons.

          by baked potato on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 03:01:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I was brought up in the Presbyterian church (none / 0)

            And my mom wouldn't allow me to join Rainbow Girls, the young ladies' Masonic organization.

            I don't know why, though.  I wasn't interested, anyway.

            War is not an adventure. It is a disease. It is like typhus. - Antoine De Saint-Exupery

            by Margot on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 04:17:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  You said it (none / 0)

      before I had a chance.  So true!

      "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." - William Pitt

      by blueinnc on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 09:38:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Nazis were not excommunicated (4.00 / 7)

      Did everyone know that? I am reading Sam Harris's THe End of Faith. He says that NO Nazi was ever excommunicated. Hitler was baptised a Catholic and never excommunicated.

      Neither was Mussolini.

      But God fobid they respect a GAY man!

      by karenc13 on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:03:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  hell, (none / 0)

      they certainly wouldn't do this to hitler either.

      by essexblue on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:35:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •   San Diego bishop, not "the Church" (none / 1)

      This would not have been a problem in Los Angeles.

      My godson, a gay man who died of AIDS years ago, had a Catholic funeral in our parish. No issue. Everybody knew he was gay, everybody knew he had AIDS.

      I have known MANY gay men who had Catholic funerals, business folk of various types.

      I think it's very unfair to characterize the whole church based on the lunacy of a few.

      That having been said, it's pretty unusual to have a funeral out of USD. Why didn't they just go to his parish ?

      Let's get some Democracy for America

      by murphy on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 12:18:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Somebody made the lunatic a bishop (none / 1)

        "I think it's very unfair to characterize the whole church based on the lunacy of a few."

        It's not like this is some wacko off the street - this is a freakin' Bishop who presumably was duly consecrated after being approved at the highest level, i.e., the Vatican.

        And from what I understand, the fundamentalist winger bishops, while certainly not the only kind in the American Catholic Church, are now the majority.  

        by baked potato on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 02:39:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  My Fax to the Bishop (4.00 / 5)

      The fax # is good, everybody.  I just got a confirmation that the following message went through:

          FACSIMILE TRANSMISSION
      TO:    Bishop Robert Brom
      FAX:     858-490-8272
      FROM:    [My Name]
      DATE:    March 18, 2005
      RE:    John McCusker

      Dear Bishop Brom:

      As a Catholic and a human being, I was dismayed to hear that you are not going to allow the funeral of John McCusker to be performed at the University of San Diego, citing that his lifestyle was "inconsistent with Catholic moral teaching."  I would like to urge you to consider reversing your decision, as the truly moral thing to do would be for you to allow Mr. McCusker to rest in peace and to let his family say their final farewell to him in the church of their own choosing.  

      Judging Mr. McCusker's life after it has ended is certainly inappropriate, either for you or anyone else.  Mr. McCusker is facing his own kind of judgment now, as all of us will.  Rebuffing his family and hindering their wishes for Mr. McCusker's funeral is not merely cruel.  It is un-Christian.

      Please reconsider.

      Sincerely-
      [My Name]
      Oak Park, Illinois
      [My Cell Number]

      P.S.  Is it true you fuck kids? [Okay, okay- I didn't include the P.S.  But I was tempted to.]

      by Cyberactor on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 12:58:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  But that's business. n/t (none / 0)

      You can't be on the team, if you're not in the choir. Sorry.

      by peeder on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 02:31:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Saw this on Americablog (4.00 / 3)

    Let me link to those comments because they are so clear

    Church hates gays

    and

    a good Catholic's outrage

    Steve! Tell us more about your friend, you can edit the diary to do so.  I, personally, want to hear more about him.  The more we know, the more human the tragedy and the more effective the response.

    Glad to be here

    by exhausted by the spin on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 07:36:53 AM PDT

    •  About John... (4.00 / 28)

      Thanks.  John was such a gem, always smiling and full of life.  He was skiing at Mammoth with his partner Dave.  I started a crystal meth harm reduction campaign in San Diego three years ago.  John was the second person to donate to the campaign which evenually raised $80 thousand and included billboards, bus kiosks, etc.  When we were looking for donations to help with our annual Christmas "Toys for Tots" bash where 400 gay men and women attend, John delivered ice, mixer, etc. free to ensure we raised $10,000 and had 2 giant truckloads of toys, the largest single private event for Toys for Tots in San Diego.  So how is all of this "inconsistent" with Catholic teaching...I am so angry I am shaking....

      Here is a link to his obit in the local gay news:

      http://www.gaylesbiantimes.com/?id=4628

      San Diego Steve "Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion."

      by SanDiegoSteve on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 07:42:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  your grief (none / 1)

        I extend myself to you in your hour of grief. Your outrage is justifed. Peace to you. And I'm speechless, but I'm sure I'll come up with something to write to the "good" people in San Diego who made this decision.

        See what's cooking at Culture Kitchen

        by lorraine on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 07:47:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  John deserves our thanks and prayers (4.00 / 2)

        As do you.  

        Thank you for bring this out.

        Glad to be here

        by exhausted by the spin on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 07:56:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Of course it's not inconsistent (4.00 / 6)

        with Catholic teaching.

        What the bishop did is.

        It is outrageous, and I know that many Catholics, including priests and bishops, will share my outrage.

        My mother was once excommunicated by her parish priest because she wrote a book expressing her liberal views on abortion, homosexuality, and euthanasia. He would have denied her a Catholic requiem too.  Luckily, shortly before she died, he was "retired" by the bishop (he was an alcoholic with a personality disorder - ironically my mother was his physician).

        At her requiem, a prominent Jesuit professor of ethics paid tribute to her courage to say "what too many of us dare not". It is time all Catholics (including me) had the courage to express our outrage at actions like this bishop's.

        by Febble on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:19:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  aoeu (none / 1)

    And the pedo-priests will of course get a burial.

    turtles consider
    every single vote deeply
    yet always vote dem

    by TealVeal on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 08:01:07 AM PDT

  •  Sermon on the Mount (none / 0)

    This bishop dude seriously needs to read the Sermon on the Mount and figure out why the Catholic Church exists in the first place.

    Wahoo!

    by bink on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 08:09:25 AM PDT

  •  My heart weeps...again (4.00 / 5)

    This story needs more publicity and it is why I am recommending it.

    My heart weeps once again,and sadly the church's hypocrisy lives on. This certainly isn't a part of the moral teachings that I was born and raised with as a Catholic. No the teachings and Jesus I learned about talked about how Jesus loved, cherished, and forgave all his children... especially the least among us in our society including lepers, poor, prostitutes, & adulterers. He also said, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Once again this says more about the Catholic church and need to be reminded of their moral teachings such as "to err is human to FORGIVE is devine"...so much for the practice of forgiveness and divinity.
    However, personally I don't believe that this is something that needs to be forgiven because I  don't believe any of this is a "sin" or is morally unacceptable, but since the Catholic church does perhaps it needs a reminder to practice a little forgiveness and tolerance that it preaches. But... I guess "forgiveness" must be a selective aspect of their teachings, and is only reserved for those who perpetrated and/or covered up sex abuse/pedophilia scandals among its ranks.

    by emal on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 08:12:59 AM PDT

    •  McCusker appears to have been a fine man... (4.00 / 6)

      Homosexuality has been with us from the beginning. It is genetic.  Even the plains Indians, as one example, clearly saw that the "Great Father" had a hand in it.

      Until mankind moves past the 'ignorance' of a literal interpretation of the bible, aruguing with an idiot is just something else to avoid.

      From the bio I read on John McCusker it is quite clear this guy was a wonderful contributor to his community - probably much more active than anyone condeming him.

      To condemn homosexuality is to embrace ignorance, and hate, and prejudice.  But some people just can't see the light, even when it is staring them in the face.

      "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." - Asimov

      by louislemire on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 08:52:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My Sympathies (4.00 / 5)

    This is an outrage, and my sympathies go out to this man's family and friends. And take a look at this quote from the Pope recently concerning gay marriage:
    ~~~~
    Pope Calls Gay Marriage Part of 'Ideology of Evil'
    Tue Feb 22,11:55 PM ET Top Stories -
    Reuters By Philip Pullella
    ROME (Reuters) - "Homosexual marriages are part of "a new ideology of evil" that is insidiously threatening society," Pope John Paul (news - web sites) says in a new book published on Tuesday. In "Memory and Identity," the Pope also calls abortion a "legal extermination" comparable to attempts to wipe out Jews and other groups in the 20th century.
    ~~~
    His statements here are not only totally hypocritical, they are hateful. This is Christian? He condemns two people loving each other and calls it evil(?).I suggest the Pope and all in the Catholic Church take a deeper look at what has transpired in their own backyard as well regarding "holocausts." He obviously doesn't know about all the blood his church has spilled over the years in the name of God.

    And also, if the Pope and all of these priests extol the virtues of heterosexual marriage so greatly, why do they not allow their priests to marry and have children? Perhaps they wouldn't molest little boys if they weren't so repressed. To me, organized religion is nothing but a great big "tax free" sham.( And please note, you do not have to step into a building every Sunday and hand them 10% of your income to believe in and pray to God.) I also have no doubt that my God would accept ALL who enter his kingdom.

    Is it because they think they are perfect, that  others'imperfections are looked down on? Or do they see their own inperfections in others and simply can't deal with it? Or is it because the Church is really a hatemongering organization? Would Jesus look down on anyone? According to the Bible, did he not defend a prostitute and eat with tax collectors? He did not judge anyone. Religion is supposed to be inclusive and uplift all people, not condemn and guilt them. It isn't supposed to be opulant and boastful either. People in this world starve while the hierarchies of these pyramid scheme churches live in the lap of luxury on other peoples' money. The very people they condemn are those actually doing the good deeds.

    I'm really tired of self-righteous, hypocritcal religious leaders pontificating to us as if they are anything more than human themselves. Does the Church then believe that the homosexuals Hitler also killed in concentration camps deserved that fate because they were "evil?" Does he and the Catholic Church also not realize that these words can cause hate crimes to be committed against the Gay community? How are they allowed to get away with such inconsiderate thoughts?

    I simply can't believe how so many Christians today preach love, but really hate. Actually, it is those of any religion, race, or politics who show tolerance as a cover to true hatred that are the evil ones. Any church that teaches hate and intolerance of any group, is then not a church I wish to belong to.

    Again, my sympathies, and I will take a look at the sources provided here and send a comment.
    ~~~~~~

    "I miss the ability to influence events, but I don't miss politics."
    Al Gore In LIFE
    Bergen Record, June 23, 2006

    by Patriot for Al Gore on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 08:41:30 AM PDT

  •  Just When You Think It Can't Get Any Worse... (none / 1)

    ...this is another horrible story in a week chock-full of them.

    I am so sorry about the death of your friend, Steve. John sounds like he was a wonderful person. And I am sickened by the Bishop's decision, which is so very, very wrong.

    The Diocese of San Diego (or whatever its official name is) should be deeply ashamed of itself. This decision, and too damn many other decisions made by Christians, are against Christ's teachings.

    by librarydiane on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 09:14:51 AM PDT

  •  Gotta love thos whacky Catholics (4.00 / 2)

    After all, they gotta draw the line some where - IRA Terror bombers and Mafia Dons are one thing - but really, someone that owns a gay bar !!

    Follow this link for pretty pictures from the funeral of Al Capone, St. Patrick's  Roman Catholic Church, Miami

    We are powerless to act in cases of oral-genital intimacy unless it obstructs interstate commerce. - J. Edgar Hoover

    by tiponeill on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 09:29:50 AM PDT

  •  My condolences to you on the loss of your friend (4.00 / 3)

    I am so sorry for your loss.  From what you write, he sounds like a really great person.
    It seems to me that these days the Catholic Church is shooting itself in the foot.  What good does it do to deny his family a church service? None at all.  What harm does it do to the deceased? It seems an utterly misplaced attempt to punish him after the fact.
    The church ends up looking cruel.  They neglect their duty to be examples of mercy and forgiveness, and soon the only people who show up for services are those horrible people who believe that their only sin is that their own perfection makes it difficult to be humble.

    Doing it right is what fascism is all about.

    by pedant on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 09:35:38 AM PDT

  •  I shake my head... (4.00 / 3)

    ...that anyone would willingly make a decision so evocative of Fred Phelps.  Politicizing something as tragic as a funeral is horrendous, and thoroughly underscores how out of touch the Roman Catholic Church has become.

    by osterizer on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 09:36:31 AM PDT

  •  I'm not sure I understand (none / 1)

    Is anyone surprised?  This is the CATHOLIC CHURCH!  They're a bunch of hypocrites.  Why he and his family would want to be buried by the Catholic Church is beyond me.  He had his whole life to convert.  I'm sure another denomination would be willing to bury the dude.  

    Signed:  Former Catholic.

    by Terp on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 09:36:45 AM PDT

    •  I'm surprised. (4.00 / 8)

      I'm a former Catholic, and I have more than a few arguments with the church.  But I'd thought this refusing funerals business was a thing of the past.  When my dad died a couple of years ago, I thought maybe the priest--who'd never met him, he'd never been to mass at that church--would refuse a funeral.  My dad had been married twice, his first wife was still living, he hadn't gone to mass since my grandparents died, and before then only went out of courtesy because they were visiting.  But the priest told my mom that basically it wasn't his place to decide who deserved a funeral mass, and they didn't generally do that anymore, even (especially!) in, say, cases of suicide, which back in the day would have been refused a funeral.

      So frankly, yes, I'm surprised at this Bishop.  He must be a Grade A asshole, or have some personal bone to pick with this gentleman.

      I'm disgusted.  This man was, by all accounts, someone who made the world a better place for his presence, and his loss is a very sad one.

      I don't think, though, that registering a popular protest will have much effect, sadly.  The Roman Catholic Church isn't a democracy, and popular opinion isn't even remotely relevant in this bishop's decisions.  I can only hope that some of his brother bishops, and even the priests of his diocese, will speak up and let him know just how un-Christian he's being.  I won't hold my breath, though.

      Hige sceal že heardra, heorte že cenre, mod sceal že mare že ure maegen lytlaš

      by hautdesert on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 10:18:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  San Diego diocese is right next to Orange County. (none / 1)

        There are a lot of very political repugnut catholic leaders, laity, priests and RC hierarchy in both dioceses.

        Both counties are very conservative, although San Diego County has more liberal areas. I think this is an archbishop with his face way up the Pope's butt. I think he's trying to make some points on this one.

        But I question whether this will play out that way. A LOT of people, including Catholics, will smell the stink on this one. Does he mean that all bar owners should be denied the sacraments? Or only gay ones. This is the problem with bishops denying the sacraments to politicians (like Kerry) who are pro-choice, while ignoring any other issue.

        Well fuck it all, I'm still not leaving. I'm too goddamn mean and stubborn to be run off by a swarm of annoying insects.

        by homogenius on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 03:57:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Get Out of This So-Called Church (none / 0)

      I'm not surprised, either.

      Signed: Former Catholic

      Hillary '08.

      by Athena on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:08:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  re: Former Catholic (none / 1)

      I am also Roman Catholic.  However, after all of the b.s. that has been going on, I'm almost back to having a Screw-it! attitude re:  Catholicism.  I can't believe this one!  Seriously, this flies in the face of everything that I believe/value.
      WTF is next?

      "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." George Santayana

      by Street Kid on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 01:02:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Maybe he should have (4.00 / 2)

    molested boys as a Catholic priest.
    Then he'd get his proper burial.

    Investigate War Lies --> Evidence for Senate Conviction --> End the War. Got it?

    by bejammin075 on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 09:38:51 AM PDT

    •  Let's just be clear on this... (4.00 / 9)

      Pederasty is a crime of power over the weak, as is rape, and one need not be gay to commit theis heinous crime, regardless of the genders of each party.  

      As we discuss the passing of a gay man, I do not feel it is appropriate to malign priests who commit crimes and associate them, in any way, with any gay man, living or dead.

      It's the SUPREME COURT, Stupid!

      by ultrageek on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 09:49:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hear, Hear! (4.00 / 5)

        Molesting and raping children is beyond the pale.  It is a crime against innocence so heinous that no excuse or extenuating circumstance can excuse it.
        And it has NOTHING at all to do with homosexuality.
        Should we really be playing the game of "Pedophile priest"<=>"homosexual man"?  One  is the servant of evil (so to speak) and the other is a child of God.

        It's still upsetting for some people to know that the hippies were the ones telling the truth about Vietnam and trying to help America. - Anonymous

        by eunichorn on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 10:25:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  look, (4.00 / 2)

        as much as your post seems unassailable, the distinct hypocrisy here (sex with children versus sex with adults) is probably worth commenting upon.

        by essexblue on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:38:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think the first post could have been clearer (none / 1)

          Maybe say it this way.

          "If only this guy had raped children, instead of had consensual sex with an adult of the same gender, he would get a proper burial"

          As was mentioned up thread, this is a distinct angle of attack against the Church on this shameful debacle, and I really don't see why it should be off limits.

          I Am Hussein and So Can You

          by Goldfish on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 12:14:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Posts like this assume... (4.00 / 2)

            That all pedophiles are gay men, which implies the collorary: that all gay men are pedophiles.  This is not only factually false, as referenced in my post, but, more importantly misses the point.  And while it may feel good to say "your gay men are ok but our gay men are not", this is not either correct, nor is it the point.

            In case you are curious...

            Men engage in the vast majority of all crime.
            Men engage in the vast majority of sexual crimes.
            While, under normal circumstances, men perpetrate more crime (sexual and otherwise) against women than against men, the sheer inavailaibility of women and girls and the easy access to young men and boys among the priest class necessarily reverse that trend such that the majority of crimes (sexual and otherwise) are committed against males than females.  Once again, this has nothing to do with sexual orientation, but with differentials in power, and, are as often done in revulsion of homosexuality as done for the thrill of it.

            But that is not the point.

            The point is that the criminal activities of one group of people (priests who have pedophillic tendencies) should not impact the burial rights of people who do not engage in those criminal activities, even if they engage in (in the Church's eyes) morally equivalent acts.  As referenced above, Mafia dons also commit Mortal sins, but are given absolution and burial.

            It's the SUPREME COURT, Stupid!

            by ultrageek on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 12:26:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  i don't think so (none / 1)

              and i "checked my head" respectfully before arriving at this.

              the roman catholic priests, including perhaps this one in SD, are, to the best of my knowledge, accused of molesting young boys exclusively.

              i'm not extending this to society as a whole. and that's not the topic of the thread.

              by essexblue on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 12:52:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Just because the news stories are about boys... (4.00 / 2)

                that doesn't mean that girls aren't molested.
                I was a girl in catholic school for 10 years.  Teachers having sex with teenage girls happens pretty regularly.  But unlike with boys, there is a misperception out there that it is somehow natural that an older man would want to have sex with an adolescent girl, so it gets swept under the rug.
                I know of two teachers in my highschool who slept with girls.  One was eventually fired, quietly, at the end of the school year.  Another is still teaching there, as far as I know.
                However, another teacher was later caught with a boy, and was fired to great and noisy scandal.
                The misogyny of mother church teaches us that the sexual self respect of boys is very very important, but that girls, as usual, should just get used to it.

                Doing it right is what fascism is all about.

                by pedant on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 02:14:18 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  I would quibble (none / 1)

              with what you wrote:

              While, under normal circumstances, men perpetrate more crime (sexual and otherwise) against women than against men, the sheer inavailaibility of women and girls and the easy access to young men and boys among the priest class necessarily reverse that trend such that the majority of crimes (sexual and otherwise) are committed against males than females.

              This may apply to 'priests/, but certainly does not apply to male pedophiles in general. They have ready access to both genders, typically their own children, or young nieces and nephews.

              This is what I find most horrible about the arguments against gay men teaching or being scout leaders - while most pedophiles are men, and some of those are gay, there are considerably more straight predators.

              Four Legs Good

              by Spud1 on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 12:54:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  How does saying (none / 0)

              "If only this guy had raped children" imply that the homosexuals are pedophiles? If you haven't noticed, pedohphiles target children of both genders; some exclusively target children of one gender, and some target both.

              My statement in no way implies that homosexuals are necessarily pedohphiles -this is pure inference on your part. In point of fact, anyone who's studied sex crimes in detail will tell you that pedophile a is a separate sexual orientation -this is why it is next to impossible to treat pedophiles psychologically, or stop them from recidivivating.

              Further, you're claim that my statement implies the man in question was a pedophile is logically invalid. I categorically stated he wasn't such, and that if he had been, he would then be entitled to same treatment as all the other pedophiles in the priesthood who are not denied proper burial. The point of the comment is to point out how ridiculous the moral priorities of the Church are, not to suggest pedophila and homosexuality are analogous. Saying my comment makes such an assertion is as ridiculous as saying the person how mentioned the mob was implying homosexuals are also mobsters.

              I Am Hussein and So Can You

              by Goldfish on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 12:47:34 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Well, theoretically... (none / 0)

          they don't condone sex with children, regardless of the gender, by their priests.  Nor do they condone sex with adults, regardless of gender, by the priests.  Their position is completely consistent, as is mine.  

          It's the SUPREME COURT, Stupid!

          by ultrageek on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 12:16:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Child Abuse, Homosexuality (none / 0)

            I have stayed away from Church for several years, chiefly because I have children, and if not fearing, exactly, that my parish priest might molest them, I am horrified that the little-boy fuckers were just moved, protected, and allowed to repeat their crimes.

            I'm pretty liberal about sex, but adults doing kids?  No.  That's an infamia.

            Parenthetically, the abuse, sexual and physical, of children is by no means an exclusively male offense.  Child abuse is more often than not done by women, and recently there have been several well-publicized cases of adult women having sex with young teenagers, and boys as young as nine or ten.  Such abuse, especially when committed by a parent, relative, or other trusted adult (e.g., a priest) is an evil thing, by whomever it is committed.

            I'm sorry for the loss of the diarist's friend.  If he was sufficiently "Catholic" that he would have wanted a Catholic funeral, he should have gotten one.  Even were the bishop not, possibly, a sex predator, he'd be a jerk for refusing it.

            If members of Congress can get Church funerals, it beats the shit out of me why a gay person wouldn't get one.

            "A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people."

            by proudtinfoilhat on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 02:17:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Yikes everybody (none / 1)

      I surely didn't read that as "if he had been a gay man who raped children..."

      I read it as "Catholics don't mind funeral masses for child raping priests but they've got a problem with the HomoGays laypersons."

      Pretty sure I read it right, too.  Get down off the cross, y'all.  We could use the wood for tinder under this Fred Phelps effigy I've got here.

      by Disenfranshit on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 12:46:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm not a religious man... (4.00 / 6)

    ...but I would be willing to bet God shares your anger, as well as your sorrow.

    My sincere condolences on the passing of your friend.  

    "The Romans brought on their own demise, but it took them centuries. Bush has finished America in a mere 7 years." -- Paul Craig Roberts

    by Roddy McCorley on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 09:41:22 AM PDT

  •  I just sent a fax (4.00 / 11)

    Dear Bishop Brom,

    My father - a Roman Catholic - once told me that we should never malign the dead, because they cannot defend themselves.  It was his position that any ills or quarrels you had with a person became moot upon their death, and you should simply forgive them, treat their bodies and memories with respect, and move on.

    When he died in 2002, I did exactly that with him after 10 years of estrangement, because it was the right thing to do.

    After years of witnessing hypocrisy among Cathlics and Christians, I have rejected those religious teachings.  I am a Heretic, and proud to be so, because it is crystal clear to me now that I have a better understanding of right and wrong than you do, and am a more compassionate human being.

    I dare you to prove me wrong.

    Regards,

    by bionicKitty on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 09:44:41 AM PDT

  •  Love the sinner hate the sin (4.00 / 3)

    Since the corpse isn't committing any sins, the body of the deceased is, in no way, inconsistent with religious dogma.  The Good Samaritan didn't stop to ask questions of who slept with whom when there was someone in need.  Church teachings should come down pretty cleanly on helping those who cannot help themselves, and corpses certainly fall into that category.

    It's the SUPREME COURT, Stupid!

    by ultrageek on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 09:46:16 AM PDT

    •  That's what I thought as well! (none / 0)

      What, does the good bishop think that he'll catch gay heebee jeebees from a corpse?  I mean, this is ridiculous.

      Folks wouldn't treat a DOG this way.  

      For shame!  This is just wrong. My God, this is just wrong.

      "Sir, we've already lost the dock." A Zion Lieutenant to Commander Lock, The Matrix Revolutions

      by AuntiePeachy on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 03:06:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Catholic Church will lose people like John (4.00 / 6)

    to a growing number of Christian churches who dream of congregations comprised of people as loving and giving as he seems to have been. When I felt that the RC church no longer wanted me, I became active, spiritually and otherwise, in the Episcopal church (there are some conservative congregations, but more than half are all-encompassing), and I've read wonderful things here on dKos about the UCC church. It's just plain sad, though, that he could not be laid to rest peacefully in the spiritual home he and his family thought he had.

    Liberal parenting funnies at The Hausfrau Blog

    by jamfan on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 10:00:54 AM PDT

    •  Me too (none / 0)

      After the behavior of 3 bishops during the 2004 election, I too have had enough.  I only wish that more Catholics would abandon this hateful organization.  It sounds like the episcapal church has its hateful division as well.  I think the problem really is organized religion is usually evil in some ways.

      by dylanfan on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 10:38:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I hear ya (none / 1)

        what I like, I guess, is the uncompromising willingness of the left to struggle to transform the Episcopal church from within. We're not giving up till they throw us out! That whole idea, of seeing this place, this idea, that you have loved your whole life but that could be better, and working to make it better -- that's what I tried to do by staying Catholic so long. Now that effort did NOT work!

        Liberal parenting funnies at The Hausfrau Blog

        by jamfan on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:00:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  asdf (none / 0)

        I'm beginning to think that maybe I should.  (post upthread)  I'm really starting to wonder now!

        "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." George Santayana

        by Street Kid on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 01:08:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Bishops keeping mum (none / 0)

        What infuriated me was the fact that these bishops said NOTHING when Pope John Paul II sent Papal Nunzio Pio Laghi to speak with Bush to deliver the message that to start a preventative war in Iraq is a mortal sin.

        by venice ca on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 03:18:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Unitarians got my commitment (none / 0)

      I gave up on the Catholic Church after being told I couldn't be an altar server because I was a girl, and girls couldn't go behind the altar because they were "unclean". (I'm serious!)

      The misogyny and homophobia of the Catholic Church is bringing about its long, convoluted, tortured death.

      The Unitarian Universalists are another great religious community for seekers who can't accept this !^$!!($@ punitive Father God model. Most of the congregations go through the "Welcoming Congregation" program, which educates the community on GLBT issues. And the ministers gladly perform wedding ceremonies for loving couples, regardless of gender.

      by Molly Pitcher on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:40:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  But those churches aren't Catholic (none / 0)

      and a lot of ex-Catholics just wouldn't feel comfortable there, either. They  don't want to go to Church on November 1 for Reformation Sunday; they want the Feast of All Saints. They don't want a minister presiding over a Communion Service, they want a priest saying Mass. They want to dump the bathwater and keep the baby.

      It is high time for a Catholic bishop to break away and start a Church that's true to its core teachings without submitting to idiotic, non-doctrinal regulations from some bureaucrat in Rome.

      by Smallbottle on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 12:47:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  American Catholic Church (none / 0)

        I don't know how many churches they have or where they are, but I've seen accounts (on the Advocate website) for an American Catholic church, apparently affiliated withthe Old Catholics, who are much more welcoming.   One of their hierarchs writes a religion column for the Advocate.  Being Protestant (UCC in fact) I don't know all the particulars, but there it is.  Also the Episcopalian communion, at least in theory, has some degree of communion with Rome, though I'd imagine it's somewhat impaired these days.

        by Conshieguy on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 02:16:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Episcopalian... (none / 0)

          I too left the Catholic Church over the same issues that are being discussed here.  Fortunately for me, I found a small, very open Episcopalian church here in my town.  The priest (a great lady) is wonderful.  And I still get my "bells and smells"...a mass every day if I wish, and the liturgy is very similar.  Plus the idea of social justice runs very strong in this church.

          My condolences to the author of this diary on the loss of your friend.  

          by capelza on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 05:01:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Episcopalianism (none / 0)

        Geez, at my church, we have daily mass, devotions to the blessed sacrament, the angelus rung three times a day, sanctus bells and incense, and a very active Society of Mary that gathers to say the rosary regularly.  Heck, the priest, deacon, and subdeacon even face east at the mass (i.e., towards the tabernacle).

        How Catholic do you want?

        "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

        by fishhead on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 05:51:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  If only he would have had sex with little boys (4.00 / 4)

    instead of grown men, the Catholic hierarchy would be fiercely trying to defend his honor

    The only place where Republicans are anywhere close to responsible is in the dictionary.

    by DemDachshund on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 10:04:07 AM PDT

  •  even if you think homosexuality is a sin... (4.00 / 6)

    ...which I don't think it is... is there some kind of rule that sinners can't have funerals in catholic churches? 'cause if so they'd lose a LOT of business... why are they picking and choosing which sins are OK and which are not?

    conscietious objector in the battle of the sexes

    by plymouth on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 10:05:10 AM PDT

  •  Forgetting Their Own Teachings (4.00 / 7)

    When I was in Catholic school, one of the lessons drummed into our heads was the "Corporal Works of Mercy." These lessons were actually one of the few things I remember being positive about the entire Catholic "education" system. ("Education" in quotes because after 8 years as a straight-A student in a Catholic school, I spent the next 4 years nearly failing out of public high school.)

    Anyway, one of these Corporal Works of Mercy is "Bury the dead." It doesn't say anything in the Works that the dead must be STRAIGHT. Here's a link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10198d.htm

    I hate the catholic church and the hypocritical criminals that run it. This is a sad and terrible story, but sadly, at least to me, not shocking in the least.

    by NoSurrender on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 10:08:14 AM PDT

  •  You wanna be Catholic? (4.00 / 3)

    Join the Episcopal Chruch.  Anglicanism is a reformed Catholic tradition  

    The Anglican Communion may have some divisions on the issue, but the Church in the US and in Canada has been taking a courageous lead in full inclusion of GLBT persons.

    Under the worst leadership since pre-Reformation days, the Roman Catholic Communion continues to march towards being a church of hate and exclusion.  Progressive minded people of Catholic consicence should know that they have an alternative.  Vote with your feet.

    "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

    by fishhead on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 10:38:07 AM PDT

    •  Yay to God's Frozen Chosen! (none / 1)

      A great big shout out to my ex-Roman Catholic E-churchers.

      Another pisser about RCs - look what they are putting the Schiavo's through.  Suffering=good.  Pointless suffering=fantastic.  

      RE: this post - I believe that the RC church has much less to do with Jesus and his teachings than it has to do with crotch patrol.

      by mayandjay on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 12:24:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  If it's any condolence, (none / 1)

    you're not the only one outraged enough about this to also post basically the same diary, picked up from Americablog.

    My phone call with the Catholic Diocese of San Diego.

    Looks like ya beat me to the punch by an hour and a half. I searched and did not see your diary.

    My signature beat up your signature.

    by Stand Strong on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 10:41:16 AM PDT

    •  I saw your diary (none / 0)

      After recommending this one -- I too saw it on Americablog.  

      Good to see that so many people have become aware of this issue.

      And thanks for calling -- I'm at work so I cannot.

      Glad to be here

      by exhausted by the spin on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:53:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Stand Strong (none / 1)

      Read your diary and noticed you have an email address for the diocese:

      Email: bcarr@diocese-sdiego.org
      Conference@cacatholic.org
      ckellett@diocese-sdiego.org

      It might help to bombard them with email, as well.

      We do not rent rooms to Republicans.

      by Mary Julia on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:55:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I called a few times (none / 1)

        and tried to tell the woman on the phone what I thought before she put me through to the media answering machine.

        Then a lil later I called again and asked if the Bishop was avialable. She said Hold on and i was on hold for a short period of time. Then she got back on and said one sec and put me through to the Bishop's voice mail.

        The odd thing about that was the voice on the machine was that of a woman, saying "I'm not in right now", etc....

        Male Bishop has a woman leave a personal "I'm not here, leave a message" message for him?

        So I left one saying I'm a devout Catholic (which I'm not) and that while I understand the Church's view towards gays, I felt that the man should either be honored through burial, or the Church needs to come out and make a statement.

        I also went on to say that we need to do one or the other as this is quickly picking up on the internet and "you know how those leftist, liberal bloggers" take things and turn them around on us. Oh you know, they'd exploit the angle that he was gay or that this is all about his gay bars and that we'd already had enough publicity what with all the pedophilia and to keep our image clean in light of thoses possible attacks, we need to stand firm, as a religion, as a community, in our faith and explain why we're doing this.

        </snark>

        My signature beat up your signature.

        by Stand Strong on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 01:06:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Well apparently (none / 0)

    since I've called twice now, they're not talking about it and are instead referring people to their media answering service part. Keep calling. They obviously don't want to talk about it.

    My signature beat up your signature.

    by Stand Strong on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 10:55:38 AM PDT

  •  Money (none / 1)

    (I posted this on another thread earlier on the same issue)

    I ABHOR the Catholic Church these days.  Not Catholics, the Catholic Church.  And I just can't shake the sense that all their pandering is political, not religious.  Why would they do such a thing?  Easy.  The Catholic Church will be the single biggest recipient of "vouchers."  It also stand to reap huge rewards from "Faith Based Initiatives."  Given the financial incentives, their surrender of real morality for profitable dogma makes so much sense it's scary.

    If you refuse to vote for OUR PARTY'S nominee in November, the blood of a thousand back-alley abortions will be on your hands.

    by dhonig on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 10:56:28 AM PDT

    •  You got that right! (none / 1)

      Catholic Social Services!  What a joke!  All that organization gives a damn about is making $, while masquerading as a human service organization!  Talk about pathetic!  And people buy into that crap!

      "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." George Santayana

      by Street Kid on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 01:12:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Truly astounding (4.00 / 6)

    A few things appear obvious.

    The first is that this was one man's decision: Brom's.  No Diocese would have reached this decision by consensus, because someone would taken a stand for the deceased, or at least have anticipated the outcry.  Brom's stupidity in not anticipating the consequences of this decision is absolutely monumental.  I mean, this is one dumb fucking Catholic.

    The second is that the "avoiding scandal" motive is clearly smoke.  I'm sure a little checking would reveal that USD has buried many, many gay people, whether it knew that fact or not.  This clearly supports the hypothesis that Brom is engaged in some kind of projection behavior, or attempting to get right with God after diddling some kids.  That's the most sickening part of this.  I don't believe in Hell, but if I'm wrong, I'm sure he's got an E-ticket coming his way.

    The third is that the Diocese can't possibly stand up under the pressure to reverse this decision.  It's only coming from the community now, but as this story grows, it will begin to come from the church as well.

    So, so sorry to see your friend so unfairly maligned.  He's lucky to have good friends and a strong community at his back, even in death.

    "A person is as free as they believe themselves to be off." - Fortune cookie

    by The Termite on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:03:53 AM PDT

  •  Leave Now (none / 1)

    The Catholic church will collapse when right-thinking people no longer stay in it.  Too many disagree with its policies and stay in.  That only maintains its power.

    Stop complaining and get out.

    Hillary '08.

    by Athena on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:11:04 AM PDT

    •  asdf (none / 0)

      have been considering it for awhile!  Suggestions?

      "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." George Santayana

      by Street Kid on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 01:13:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hop down the street (none / 1)

        to the Episcopal Church, aka "Catholic Lite -- all the tradition, half the guilt." Hell, we're not perfect (it's been said that Christ created the perfect Church, but then humans had to get involved and screw everything up), but we mean well.

        Or if you're unlucky enough to be in one of the Neanderthal dioceses (there are a few that still resist ordaining women, for crying out loud!), check out the UCC churches in your vicinity -- PastorDan can give you a better recommendation than I can (though the spouse and I plan to do some parish visiting this summer).

        "Old soldiers never die -- they get young soldiers killed." -- Bill Maher

        by Cali Scribe on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 01:45:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks! (none / 0)

          This community is so full of the religious right, it's unbelieveable K/E carried this county!  Talk about hypocrites!  They make me nuts!

          "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." George Santayana

          by Street Kid on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 01:53:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  other congregations (none / 1)

          Lutherans seem to be fairly similar to the Catholic church.  (Please correct me if this is pure ignorance.)

          I have an aunt who is a Unitarian, and she is one of the loveliest people I know, who has a HUGE heart.

          I've also heard good things about the United Congregation of Christ.  I get emails from them sometimes protesting many things the Bush administration is doing that they feel are against what Jesus would want to be done.

          "If life has no purpose, if it's been given us for its own sake, we have no reason for living." -Tolstoy

          by tryptamine on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 07:42:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Why the catholic church is moving to the right (none / 1)

    This whole thing was obviously a political move, it is pretty clear that banning this funeral will achieve a much higher level of public scandal than allowing it.

    Personally, I see this as another ham-handed PR move on the part of the Catholic Church leadership.  The look out and see ever more empty space in pews, and growing conservative churches, and scandals that have serverly tarnished their moral leadership.  So, they move to the right, take a hard line on 'moral' issues, try and bury the scandals as much as possible.  It's a lot easier than admitting past errors and actually trying to fix things.

    "Agitate . . . Agitate . . . Agitate" - Frederick Douglass

    by Fides on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:14:21 AM PDT

    •  Mid-level leadership (none / 1)

      I don't know that the Catholic Church is moving to the right as a whole, but it seems that with the Pope's declining health, there are people in the mid-level of the Catholic Church who are trying to push things rightward.

      The sicker the Pope gets, the less leadership comes from the top.  It should be an interesting battle when the next Pope is selected.  There are still Catholics who are angry at the Vatican II reforms from decades ago.

      It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.

      by A Citizen on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:45:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  See Opus Dei n/t (none / 1)

        Four Legs Good

        by Spud1 on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 12:36:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And Santorum's Legionaires of Christ (none / 1)

          The reactionaries are gaining power in the Church now that the pope is ill and dying. Not to say that the pope isn't conservative, but he was quite a different sort.  Remember that pope when in better health spoke out against the cruelty of capitalism as well as the evils of communism.  

          But most importantly and the pope was savy enough to keep the church out of politics in the US.  Before 2000 you mostly had priests talking about issues, not candidates.  In fact Bishops that crossed the line were repremanded -- I do remember my Bishop in Northern VA getting removed and transfered to Scranton for being to much of a grandstanding conservative blowhard back in the early 80s.

          Something changed during the 2000 campaign.  I do know priests in the NYC got dragged to a Bush campaign event at St. Patricks that was patently political in a sacred place.  It only got worse by 2004 what with the Catholic John Kerry plainly being a seen as a threat to the Opus Dei and Legionaires types.

          We just might be at the beginnings of a schism in the church.

          Annie

          by akeitz on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 05:08:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  You make it sound like the pope (none / 0)

        has been putting the brakes on the rightward drift of the Church.  To the contrary, he has been its main instigator.

        Pope John 23rd with the Vatican II Council wanted to "throw open" the windows of the Church.  John Paul II has been busy nailing them shut.

        by baked potato on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 03:11:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Perhaps... (none / 0)

          But a lot of the contreverseys have come about by policy decisions from the mid-level, with the Vatican remaining silent on the issues.

          It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.

          by A Citizen on Sat Mar 19, 2005 at 04:28:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  An idea. (4.00 / 3)

    Aren't the pew areas of Catholic churches always open?  (They are in the movies.  I have little experience with them myself.)

    If they still refuse to let you have his funeral there, I suggest you and everyone who attends his funeral take over the church in his memory anyway.  

    I'm so sorry that you have to deal with this right after losing your friend.  And I hope God shakes some sense into that Bishop someday soon.

    "If life has no purpose, if it's been given us for its own sake, we have no reason for living." -Tolstoy

    by tryptamine on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:24:16 AM PDT

    •  Fill every seat... (4.00 / 4)

      And then turn your back on the bishop, like he has turned his back on a family in need, and a man who served his community.  Let those without sin cast the first stone, so since the bishop appears without sin, he better be prepared for a sharp riposte from the blog community.

      Dr. Dean...Paging Dr. Dean...he's not on-call you say...then get me DR. MATT!! STAT!!!

      by doctormatt06 on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 12:28:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  in perpetuity (none / 1)

        Turn your backs and have someone conduct a service from the back of the church.  Someone with a mobile sound system.  Record it on video so it can live on the web in perpetuity.

        "I cherished my hate like a badge of moral superiority." - Mark Rudd

        by Bob Love on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 02:51:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  My letter to the SD Union Editor (4.00 / 5)

    Dear Editor:

    I am writing in regards to the story in your March 18, 2005 issue of how Bishop Robert H. Brom denied the request of a family of a deceased
    gay man to have his funeral in the church of his Alma Mater, at USD. Today, I can honestly say I am ashamed to be Catholic.

    The Catholic News Service reported that about 4 percent of U.S. priests ministering from 1950 to 2002 were accused of sex abuse with a minor. Will these priests be precluded from having funerals in Bishop Brom's churches? Is it better to molest a child in private than to love a consenting man in public? I would suggest Bishop Brom re-read The Sermon On The Mount:  "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

    It's amazing how Jesus specifically sought out those who had been precluded from entering Jewish temples in his day. He embraced leppers, whores etc... teaching that we are all God's children.

    WWJD? Defintely not what this Bishop did.

    Sincerely,

    by Bidabunch on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:26:13 AM PDT

  •  Steve, condolences (none / 0)

    This is a tragedy for the decease and an outrage to all decent people. I have to suggest, tho, that your injunction to "show them the respect in your call that they have failed to show John in his death" makes you a small part of the problem.

    The persons involved are irredemable assholes. As long as you believe they deserve respect rather than unalloyed contempt, you're accepting that they're something better than a pile of dirt. Time to get over those illusions.

    Everybody talkin' 'bout Heaven ain't goin' there -- Mahalia Jackson

    by DaveW on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:40:21 AM PDT

  •  Steve, our condolences on the loss of (none / 0)

    your dear friend, John. Our support to you and John's family for having to suffer these additional sorrows and crisis of faith during this time.  

    We're in San Diego also. When we heard the news last night my S.O. made the comment "Do the priest's who abuse children get to be buried in the church"? and my comment was "Evidently the family didn't give enough money to the church".

    I will call and voice my outrage, but let me add this:

    Here is why I'm not a member of the Catholic Church- It's the hypocracy, stupid!

    Shame on Bishop Brom and the Catholic Church for their unconscionable double standard.  

    "Liberals feel unworthy of their possessions. Conservatives feel they deserve everything they've stolen." Mort Sahl

    by maggiemae on Fri Mar 18, 2005 at 11:45:48 AM PDT

    •  Well said, MM. (4.00 / 2)

      I wish I could have been as thoughtful, but I'm just so damn pissed off right now.

      And thanks for saying "It's the hypocrisy, stupid!" I wanted to use that in response t