Daily Kos

Exit Poll Special: Febble's Fancy Function

Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 01:19:38 PM PDT

[editor's note, by DemFromCT] The data reports by Freeman, Brady, USCV, etc. can be found at the National Research Commission on Elections and Voting website. Update [2005-4-30 12:29:14 by DemFromCT]:: Febble's paper can also be found here and here.

The Mystery Pollster has a new post up today highlighting the work of a dedicated Daily Kos poster named Febble. As the MP puts it:

Regular readers of this blog may know her as "Febble," the diarist from DailyKos.  Her real name is Elizabeth Liddle, a 50-something mother and native of Scotland who originally trained as a classical musician and spent most of her life performing, composing and recording renaissance and baroque music.  She also studied architecture and urban design before enrolling in a PhD program in Cognitive Psychology at the University of Nottingham where she is currently at work on a dissertation on the neural correlates of dyslexia.  In her spare time, she wrote a children's book and developed in interest in American politics while posting on the British Labor party on DailyKos.  A self proclaimed "fraudster" she came to believe our election "may well have been rigged," that "real and massive vote suppression" occurred in Ohio where the recount was "a sham" and the Secretary of State "should be jailed."

She is, in short, perhaps the least imaginable person to have developed a computational model that both suggests a way to resolve the debate about whether the exit polls present evidence of fraud and undermines the central thesis of a paper by a team of PhD fraud theorists.

But that's exactly what she's done.

Assignment editors, if you are out there (and I know you are), while it is a bit complex and geeky, this is an amazing story.  Read on...

Here's a story that takes us back to the afternoon of November 2, 2004 and the leaked afternoon exit polls that showed Kerry ahead, Bush trailing. A nice summary of that, and the U.S. Count Votes report that followed was put up Monday on washingtonpost.com by Terry Neal, their senior political reporter:

  • ::
The methodology and math of the study are far too complicated to get into in detail here. But here is a link to the entire study for your reading pleasure.

Among other things, the study reports that some of the largest discrepancies between exit polls and final vote tallies occurred inexplicably in battleground states.

"This discrepancy between exit polls and the official election results has triggered a controversy which has yet to be resolved," according the report.

Last year's exit poll was conducted by Edison Media Research and Mitofsky International for ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, Fox News and the Associated Press, and many reports, including one from Edison and Mitofsky, have found flaws in the poll.

The U.S. Count Votes analysis noted that Edison-Mitofsky's "national poll results projected a Kerry victory by 3.0 percent, whereas the official count had Bush winning by 2.5 percent. Several methods have been used to estimate the probability that the national exit poll results would be as different as they were from the national popular vote by random chance. These estimates range from 1 in 16.5 million to 1 in 1,240. No matter how one calculates it, the discrepancy cannot be attributed to chance."

Even Edison and Mitofsky have acknowledged that the problem between exit polls and the vote count could not be explained simply by statistical error. One of their primary explanations: Kerry voters were more likely than Bush voters to participate in the exit poll.

Meanwhile, on Daily Kos , some very interesting things were happening. Following the election, the exit poll discrepancy was discussed at length and in detail both on the front page and in multiple diaries, with varying points of view. Many posters showed up with regularity in the exit poll diaries out of interest and curiosity. Some, like myself, began researching past exit poll performance for clues as to what had happened. Some of the more statistically-minded were drawn to the issue. One of them, a British poster named Febble, began analyzing the available data in hopes of clarifying the exit poll section in georgia10's well-researched effort (Eye On Ohio: The Informed Citizen's Guide To The 2004 Election) from early January. One of her main objections was based on relying on Steve Freeman's probability estimates of the exit polls being wrong (way too high, in Febble's opinion, referenced in this diary).

From there, Febble began thinking about the exit poll discrepancy in some new and original ways. Aided by multiple comments and the discussion of an interested audience, Febble reviewed the previous history of exit poll probabilities (BREAKING: One in Nine Billion probability that Exit polls could have happened by chance!) showing a distinct and clear pattern of Dem bias in the past, and that `probability' is a poor function to judge exit polls by.

By this time, others including Mark Blumenthal (aka the Mystery Pollster), and Rick Brady (a grad student in city planning and a frequent poster at the Mystery Pollster site) had weighed in with their own critiques.

Febble herself had been an early participant in USCV and remained in contact with many of the math and stats people involved in the effort. Meanwhile, she began running computer simulations trying to model various changes in partisanship to see how that might affect the assumptions underlying the USCV paper. That diary in early April, New: Snark-free Exit Poll analysis, presented a novel and original way of looking at the available exit poll data and came up with what Daily Kos poster RonK dubbed "Febble's Fancy Function". Mystery Pollster today details what the math is all about; with that diary, Brady and the other posters in these parts weighed in and the subsequent peer review led to revisions which are now put together in a formal academic paper, which can be found here.

What Febble has done is shown that the oft-used variable known as Within Precinct Error (WPE) is not a very good measure of sample bias. Sample bias can be introduced by such things as Bush voters refusing to talk to pollsters. In the parlance of the trade, this is known as `differential non-response' (i.e., the non-response to pollsters is different between Bush voters and Kerry voters), but it's also been widely described as reluctant (or `shy') Bush responders, or rBr (all those terms are used in various reports and critiques). It's what Edison-Mitofsky (the exit poll company) says is the likely reason for why the exit polls were wrong, and it's primarily what USCV says is `implausible', thereby supporting their conclusion that fraud is a leading possibility to explain the exit poll discrepancy. They heavily relied on WPEs to reach that conclusion, and so did many of the subsequent Daily Kos diaries.

However, Febble's Fancy Function shows that WPE obscures diagnosis of exit poll error by introducing a lot of noise into the analysis; the Fancy Function strips the noise and leaves only sampling bias.  Her computer modeling of the Fancy Function demonstrates that the E-M hypothesis (that there were shy Bush voters) remains very plausible, indeed.

In addition, assuming that Febble's work stands up to peer review, it may become an equally valid way of looking at exit polls in future, in order to detect suspicious variation in sampling bias that would deserve to be looked into further.

Febble's work does not prove there was no fraud, any more than USCV's work proves there was. The exit polls are too blunt an instrument for that, and we don't have the precinct-level data that would be required for detailed analysis (what we have is state-wide averages). Nonetheless, this is a genuine contribution to the understanding of what's happened, and as such deserves recognition. If Febble's Fancy Function is applied to precinct-level data, it is quite possible (likely, even) that lingering questions about whether it is possible for 'differential non-response' to be a plausable explanation for the exit poll discrepancy would be resolved. Only E-M has that data, so further inquiries will have to wait until after mid-May, when the American Association for Public Opinion Research will have its annual meeting. Mitofsky will be there and 2004 exit polls are on the agenda.

In addition, Febble's idea happened because of this community, the forbearance and patience of the critics, the skeptics (and the skeptics of the skeptics) that allowed the free-flowing peer review over the internet that marks Daily Kos as a special place.  Febble's Fancy Function was created here, and whether or not it goes on to be published and used, you've participated in the birth of an idea. That's a very neat thing to have witnessed.

[Full disclosure and adapted from the Mystery Pollster, who has a similar disclaimer:  For the last two weeks, I have had the unique opportunity to watch the development of Elizabeth Liddle's work through a running email conversation between herself, Rick Brady of StonesCryOut and Mark Blumenthal from Mystery Pollster. This post benefits greatly from their input, although as always, the views expressed here are my own - DemFromCT].

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Permalink | 374 comments

  •  nothing like a little friday afternoon (4.00 / 4)

    light reading ;]
  •  Wow (4.00 / 5)

    What great work, from everyone all around. I'm going to have to re-read this post a couple times to let everything sink in!

    Oh, btw, the link to the Election Guide link does not function. For some reason, my tripod account was inexplicably cancelled (???)

    The document can be downloaded here though.

  •  Dailykos (4.00 / 10)

    proving Lawrence Summmers does not know what he is talking about.

    Febble and Page, two women teaching us all, men and women, a lot about math and science.

    Everybody dies alone.

    by Armando on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 01:17:54 PM PDT

  •  one thing that's bothered me a bit in the (4.00 / 5)

    back and forth is the comment placed on the web by USCV:
    USCountVotes would love to issue a challenge for any PhD level credentialled statistician who is affiliated with any university in America to find any statements in our "Response to Edison/Mitofsky Report" that they believe are incorrect and publicly refute it. We will be happy to respond when and if such a person can be found. Some in our group are planning to provide an addendum to our study that points up two additional substantial evidence that are provided by the E/M report that refutes their theory that "Kerry voters more likely to answer exit polls". If there is a statistician in America who will risk his academic reputation by publicly speaking out against our factual findings on the E/M report then we are very pleased to begin a public academic debate with that person.

    Kathy Dopp Lays Down The Gauntlet

    Clearly the issue is the quality of the work, not the degrees of the people putting the work forth. I hope I'm not missing something here, but part of the issue all along for some of the critics of USCV was the lack of real-life polling experience amongst the superb math being done by that group. Febble does not have a PhD. Neither does Brady. Neither do others who have contributed mightily to the discussion.

    I'm an egalitarian when it comes to this stuff.

    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

    by DemFromCT on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 01:18:04 PM PDT

    •  Ph. D Snobs (4.00 / 8)

      The last refuge of a debunked academic.

      Einstein was patent clerk when he devised his special theory of relativity.

      Everybody dies alone.

      by Armando on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 01:20:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  yes, but (none / 1)

        a patent clerk with a Ph.D. =)
      •  He was a patent clerk with a Ph. D., though. (none / 1)

        Not that it matters...but there's a lot of Einstein mythology out there (like he was a "poor student" and such) that goes unanswered often.

        Hand me down my walking cane, hand me down my hat...

        by Cheez Whiz on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 02:05:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Einstein was essentially a grad student (none / 0)

        working on finishing his greatly-delayed doctoral dissertation in theoretical physics while holding down a day job as a patent clerk to pay the bills. He submitted his dissertation to the University of Zurich in early 1905, then went on to publish his mind-boggling trio of papers in the following months on the Brownian motion, special relativity, and the photoelectric effect.

        One might guess that his relatively pedestrian dissertation topic was rather boring (determination of molecular dimensions based on the viscosity and diffusion of sugar solutions in water) compared to his nobel-winning work and that may have contributed to the delay in its submission. This work was, however, very important in the proof of the existence of molecules and was his most-cited paper of 1905, weirdly enough.

        Come see TV from the reality-based community at RealityBasedTV.com

        by MarkInSanFran on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 02:11:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I liked the Galbraith reference (none / 0)

        about academia in yesterday's altercation (4/28/05) (link):

        Perhaps the most important obstacle in Galbraith's way, though, has been academia, and not only blue-blooded Harvard, whose Corporation always fretted over the pink politics of its alumnus Roosevelt and his allies, but the whole profession. As Parker notes, Galbraith never wanted to play the academic game, never wanted to reproduce himself in a hundred acolyte doctoral students, never wanted to keep up with new techniques and publish in journals. And that--not liberalism--is what professional academia demands.

        Academia's goal is not to find out the right answers often, which was why Galbraith was uninterested in academia.  All too often academia is all about finding clever ways to talk about something that has no practical application and that those outside the field couldn't care less about.  Not always.  But often enough.

        That said, I am proud of what Febble and others here have done.

        The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

        by mikepridmore on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 04:28:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I'm not so troubled... (4.00 / 2)

      I don't interpret a challenge to PhD statisticians as an insult to everyone else.

      I am virtually acquainted with both Kathy Dopp and Febble, and I respect them both a lot. I've also participated in USCV discussions, although I haven't signed their reports. There has been plenty of debate about Febble's work and what it means, but I don't remember any ad hominem (ad feminam?) arguments based on whether she had a PhD.

      USCV issues statements on a consensus basis, which makes it hard to air substantive disagreements. Probably some USCV folks feel that Febble has wandered off the reservation. Personally, I think it's great that Febble has opened up the arguments: the very fact that we can be seriously arguing about who (should have) won the 2004 election strikes me as more telling than whether we agree on the answer. Actually, to their credit, USCV and Febble haven't taken fixed positions: all are trying their damnedest to follow the evidence where it leads.

    •  DemFromCT, why didn't you mention... (none / 0)

      ...that US Vote Counts is the only organization trying to get the precinct level data that would answer all questions?

      Febble's work does not prove there was no fraud, any more than USCV's work proves there was. The exit polls are too blunt an instrument for that, and we don't have the precinct-level data that would be required for detailed analysis (what we have is state-wide averages). Nonetheless, this is a genuine contribution to the understanding of what's happened, and as such deserves recognition.

      This seems extremely disingenuous to me, in just the way that people who contribute to dKos generally scream bloody murder about when the Corporate American Media do the same thing.

      Eh?

      ...

      Nevermind.  I'm a "fraudster".

      "...And bunnies would dance in the streets, and we would find life on Mars." -Peter Singer, Brookings Institution

      by zentiger on Sun May 01, 2005 at 11:21:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Eh? (none / 0)

        You're looking for something that's not there. And everyone is trying to get precinct level dat, including me, who has been in contact with E-M since the get-go.

        Look, as noted elsewhere, USCV are good people, Febble is in contact with them, they acknowledge each others's work in their papers, and the relationship between Febble and USCV is a good one even when they disagree.

        You are way off base.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by DemFromCT on Mon May 02, 2005 at 06:38:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I apologize: (none / 0)

          Upon re-reading I realized that you were not, indeed, saying what I thought you were.

          I thought that you were implying that USCV was saying that the Exit Polls were not only necessary, but sufficient, a supposition that Febble's work clearly refutes.  

          Of course the Exit Polls themselves are not sufficient.  The current state of the argument is over whether or not they are telling.  Clearly USCV thinks so.

          It's now clear to me that you were saying that neither's work can be decisive until more complete data is available, which I certainly agree with.

          Sorry for wasting your time and energy.

          (Perhaps I overreacted because I still have a bad taste in my mouth from the unconstructive "fraudster" debates back when it mattered.)

          "...And bunnies would dance in the streets, and we would find life on Mars." -Peter Singer, Brookings Institution

          by zentiger on Tue May 03, 2005 at 06:01:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Kudos to Febble (4.00 / 5)

    I'll confess that I'm not too swift on the math of all this, but I recognized from the get go that her comments and posts on the exit poll controversy were a cut above.

    And thanks to DemFromCT, who rendered this accessible to a not-too-swift-in-the-math-dept type like me.

  •  by the way (4.00 / 5)

    where IS the precinct-level data? It's been six months!
  •  I'm I quantitative junkie (none / 0)

    So this makes for some very fascinating reading.
  •  Link! (none / 0)

    You forgot a link to Mystery Pollster.
  •  Important Note (4.00 / 14)

    We have to raise $2000 to send Febble to the conference where her work will be discussed.

    We need to figure out how to do this.

    Everybody dies alone.

    by Armando on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 01:26:55 PM PDT

  •  I think this is the future for progressives... (4.00 / 7)

    This use of open debate and sharing of ideas is very scientific and reality-based. It is an advantage we have over conservatives who squelch dissent and only use the web to push disinformation and rally the troops. We use it to bounce around ideas, challenge each other and mold a more powerful, effective message and methodology. Dailkos is sort of a breeding ground for meme evolution.

    How could the conservatives compete with this?

    •  my main question is (4.00 / 3)

      if (and I do say if) clear, convincing, tangible, irrefutable proof surfaces that the election was tampered with, and that without tampering Bush would have lost the election ... where, exactly, does that leave us?  

      Obviously we can't replace Bush, but what fallout (if any) would be generated and who, exactly, would it land on?

      I know a lot of that depends on what any proof would consist of, and I don't expect there to be hard and fast answers, but would like to have an idea of how pursuing this to its conclusion would benefit us beyond the obvious satisfaction of just plain knowing, and helping make sure it doesn't happen again.

      My two main personal priorities are election reform and transparency in government.  Without these two things, we will always be putting out fires as the forest burns around us.

      "Heck of a job, Bushie!" - Dem Congress ( -6.25, -5.85 )

      by grrtigger on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 01:38:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree (none / 1)

        this will help a bit with the transparency, at least after-the-fact, if it pans out. But election reform is still a job undone... locally as well as nationally.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by DemFromCT on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 01:46:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  i'm going to start writing about that (none / 1)

          right here.  Once a month, a diary post to keep discussion going on these two issues that I think sit on top of everything else.

          When the database stuff was reloaded I rediscovered my diary from the day after the election: Day One.  It really kinda brought back to the forefront that sense that some very wrong things are going on and it's going to take all of us pushing in our own, individual ways to get back on the right track.

          "Heck of a job, Bushie!" - Dem Congress ( -6.25, -5.85 )

          by grrtigger on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 02:00:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  The scary thing is... (4.00 / 2)

        ...the GOP is already laying the groundwork for a he said/she said response by spreading false claims of Democratic tampering in the areas where it probably occurred by GOP hands. That means the media will have to report both sides when this does break, and again it will fall across party lines on who you believe, and the centrists will once again throw up their hands and assume we're both "just as bad".

        The only response to that is to push for reform that requires paper trails and trasnparency. Only the guilty party will oppose it. Our point will be made.

        •  exactly (4.00 / 2)

          I was dumbfounded last year to read and hear about cases where election officials were buying and even supporting these suspect voting machines, even as allegations of Diebold's incompetence/complicity swirled all around the internets.

          I guess fighting for Democracy really is hard work.

          "Heck of a job, Bushie!" - Dem Congress ( -6.25, -5.85 )

          by grrtigger on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 02:43:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  thank you thank you thank you (4.00 / 3)

      the very point I'm terying to get across. More important than the math or the result of the math is the process.

      Open source politics and critical thinking at its best.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 01:41:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'll admit my eyes crossed when reading Febble (none / 0)

    However, just because I lack math skills does not mean I don't recognize excellent work done for the sheer love of it.

    Congratulations - you deserve this recognition!

  •  Without taking a stand, what bothers me is... (4.00 / 6)

    Without taking a stand one way or the other, what bothers me about this whole issue is:  what can be done about it?  Republicans own all the voting machine companies (probably always will, too, by the nature of Republicanism).  Local election boards are sincere but do not have the technical knowledge to know what is going on.  Most 80-year-old election volunteers cannot handle the new technology (seen it with my own eyes).  The mainstream media refuses to cover the issue (I don't think it is just because they are conservative; it is one of those things they just don't cover).

    What, if anything, could be done?  10s of thousands of left-wing pollworker volunteers wouldn't hurt, I guess, but if we didn't get them in 2004 when will we get them?  And that wouldn't address diddling the machinery.

    sPh

    •  We can terrify them (none / 1)

      By doing the math and demonstrating their pants are down.

      You can't be on the team, if you're not in the choir. Sorry.

      by peeder on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 01:42:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That would be great (none / 0)

        My fear is that we will only expose that their pants are down after they have already screwed the American people over so badly that there is little hope of recovery.  We are going to get this country handed back to us when it is past the tipping point economically and on the brink of ruin, I fear.  When we are unable to provide any substantial fix in a four year term, which will undoubtedly require tax increase, belt tightening and extensive responsible fiscal work, it's going to be handed back to them again to administer the fatal blow.  Man, I really sound like a pessimist.  I used to be such a glass half full kind of person.  

        "When people show you who they really are, believe them." - Maya Angelou

        by Pennsylvanian on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 02:05:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  We could also terrify them (none / 0)

        by saying that we have 60,000 people who work in Redmond, Washington and are willing to join a national pool of volunteer poll technical observers, advisors and certifiers.

        That's just wishful thinking but it sure would mess up some Republican drawers, wouldn't it?

        "Why can't we all... just get along?" -Rodney King

        by Skylor on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 06:03:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  What can be done about what? (none / 1)

      Are you looking to fix the fact that Republicans refuse to be polled?

      Because, if I am reading this correctly, there is no "it" to be done about.  The math (while not disproving fraud), does show that the results could very well have been legitimate.

      Which would mean, in my mind, that if (like me)you assume that the election was run legitimately until proven otherwise, that I should continue to assume that Bush did win Ohio.

      Right?  Or am I reading this wrong?

      If there is anything I have learned from Scooby Doo, it is that the only thing to fear is crooked real estate developers.

      by JakeC on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 01:53:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Legitimate? We can't have that, can we? (none / 0)

        The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

        by RonK Seattle on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 02:15:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The math does not take a position... (none / 0)

        on whether the results were legitimate or not.  This simply provides a possible explanation for the exit poll discrepancies.  It does not address the paperless voting issue, or the lack of adequate polling machines at democratic stations, or the republican "challengers", on the Sinclair "documentary", or the democratic registrations that were thrown away, or even the reality that all major manufacturers of voting machines are big republican supporters.  

        You can assume whatever you want to assume, but neither this study nor any previous polling analysis have provided any real evidence about either the validity of the election or the lack thereof.

        •  that's very true (none / 0)

          but, unlike other studies, it doesn't claim to (see USCV) suggest whether the results were legitimate or not. However, this study does suggest a way to resolve the issue... apply the math at the precinct level and see if the results stay the same. That's new and different.

          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

          by DemFromCT on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 02:58:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I wrote over broadly (none / 0)

          I was not claiming to believe her study address the issues of long lines at polling stations, or to people who weren't permitted from voting (and who presumably didn't turn around and fill out an exit poll).

          I don't believe the Sinclair movie goes to the question of legitimacy.  And the reality that manufacturers are Republican is nothing other than an interesting factoid absent more.

          But, my point remains- I approach the election results  as valid until substantially proven otherwise.  The discrepancy in the exit polls was the most disturbing evidence of illegitimacy, and this study seems to be addressing that.

          If there is anything I have learned from Scooby Doo, it is that the only thing to fear is crooked real estate developers.

          by JakeC on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 03:13:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The legitimacy of the election... (none / 1)

            does not rest on the polling results.  Every time I think about the election, I think about all of the minority voters in Florida and Ohio who were not allowed to vote, either by being wrongly cut from the polls using the overloaded "felon list", or by being sent to the wrong polling place, or by being told they couldn't vote by poll watchers, or having to go to work because they couldn't wait in line for 6 hours to vote at a polling place with too few booths.  

            I don't care how many votes bush won by.  No election can be considered legitimate when one side is able to disenfranchise a significant number of voters who might have voted against it.  The republicans cheated.  They stopped people from voting who had a legal right to vote.  Maybe they would have won even if they hadn't done this, but we'll never know.  This election was not legitimate.

    •  Well... (none / 0)

      If we opted for a technological solution, there is one floating around:

      Most people aren't familiar with the idea of public and private key encryption, so I'll explain to the best of my abilities. Bear with me.

      Every person, every individual, would have a very long number called a public key, and a very long number called a private key. These two numbers are related in that if you encrypt (or digitally sign) something with one key, you must have the other to decrypt it. All of these keys are exclusive, and they are very, very, very hard to break - like, it would take you decades to break a single pair.

      These are very useful. You can sign something with the public key, such that ONLY the person with the private key can decrypt it. You can sign something with the private key, such that anyone with the public key can decrypt it, and be sure the ONLY person it could be from would be the one with the private key. This has been used in e-mail encryption for years (possibly decades, I'm not sure). You never, ever, ever give out your private key, and you give out your public key to anyone.

      How does this relate to voting, you ask? During an election cycle, you create a database that's totally publicly viewable - to anyone with a computer, and terminals at any public library. When any given person submits their votes, that vote is placed into this single database. This database would, at any given time, be available to anyone with enough storage space and computing horsepower who wants to count the votes themselves. Additionally, anyone, at any time, can anonymously grab a particular record and check with their private key to ensure it is correct.

      Since the results are based on the same database as individual verification, and can be counted by many agencies with many different agendas, the vote would have to be correct - you couldn't change someone's vote, because they would have the power to simply check it. Any university, business, or individual with a badass computer could recount at any time - and if there were any discrepancy, you could immediately know who was lying from who had the discrepancy.

      As far as electronic voting goes, the idea is to assume that any given voting company wants to change the vote. You just have to implement a system that doesn't give them, or anyone, that power - like this one.

      Seattle Transit Blog http://seattletransitblog.com

      by Bensch on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 02:10:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Vote buying (none / 1)

        If you can in any way prove how you voted long after the fact, then there will be those inclined to offer favors to those who can prove they voted "correctly".
        •  That's the case now. (none / 0)

          With my ballot stub, I can go to King County and verify my vote today. This would not be a change.

          Anyway, absentee or any vote-by-mail system is the same way, as well.

          Seattle Transit Blog http://seattletransitblog.com

          by Bensch on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 02:39:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Is that any different... (none / 0)

          from buying access with dollars? Right now, donors are allowed to give money in exchange for access to politicians and the ability to influence legislation.  With those dollars, policicians buy air time and marketing specialists who influence votes.  I can live with the idea that some people's votes would be directly bought, but accurate. They are indirectly bought already.  
      •  can't do that (none / 1)

        This would let a voter prove how he voted. We can't do that because it opens the door to intimidation or bribery. Once a ballot has been cast, it must be completely anonymized.
        •  I'm sorry, I missed part. (none / 0)

          Because an individual voter, with their private key, can identify their vote, the answer to that is very simple. Allow a voter, at any time, to change their vote up to a cutoff time. Because the transactions wouldn't have to be done at a particular polling place, you could promise someone to vote a certain way, even allow them to force you to, and then simply go back and change it. The coercing party couldn't keep the coerced from simply going back and changing it.

          Seattle Transit Blog http://seattletransitblog.com

          by Bensch on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 02:37:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I don't doubt (none / 0)

        I don't doubt that Peter von Neumann, Bruce Schneier, Linux Torvalds, and some engineers from the companies that make Las Vegas gambling machines could develop a voting system that is as uncrackable as theoretically possible, easy to use, and meets all the various tests for voting fairness.

        But how is such an event going to come to pass?  Our political and social constructs all work against it.

        sPh

        •  This solution has existed for years. (none / 0)

          And you're absolutely right. I've been in Democratic strategy meetings where voting systems were farther down on the list than immigration. Nobody gives a shit.

          Seattle Transit Blog http://seattletransitblog.com

          by Bensch on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 03:04:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Open source entrepreneurship (none / 0)

      Well, there's a steady supply of /. types around here.   How about putting all that smarts together and forming our own voting machine company?  Sounds like a perfect way to move the expertise available here into real-world action.  
      Hey, MarKos has a background in proj mgmt, right?  
      Any entrepreneurial types out there interested in the next challenge??

      Kos branded verifiable voting machines

      Hmmmm?????  

      It's as if we had gone to war with starfish, and decided the way to win was slice off their arms and toss them back into the ocean. - Devilstower

      by Austin in PA on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 02:11:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I've voluteered (none / 0)

      But they haven't called me yet.
      And there isn't an election soon.
      And I live in California.
    •  I share your sentiments (none / 0)

      ...the truth is, none of this information is exactly new - the information DOES keep getting more and more precise, though.

      The GOP, though, has managed to avoid any real scrutiny of this issue.  Is it the media's fault for not reporting it? or for not reporting it in any substantial way that permitting some actual information to be taken from it?  or is it the public's fault?  or is it a GOP conspiracy?

      Probably all of the above.  Geez, talk about the Teflon President...George Jr. is even worse.  What is the stuff they put in hair products? - Dimethecone? - very slippery, but unlike Teflon, you can't see it..maybe chimp man is the Dimethecone President.

      I mentioned it before...maybe we all need to march on Washington...something like a Million dKos March.

      Or maybe we should all march on Ohio..where they don't have their own secret service to quash free speech (or push it out to outlying area of 'free speech' zones.

      Hell- I'm even liking that...marching on Ohio - marching on the state capital - burning blackwell in effigy - could be lots of fun!

      Really, I think if anyone is every seriously going to pay attention to this, it has got to start with something REALLY REALLY big, that gets lots of attention (with 'flash', because obviously things like evidence, statistical analysis, and lies like "a national security issue required us to close the courthouse down" don't seem to be enough to make people pay attention) will be the only thing that could possibly get people to pay attention.

      I wonder if Bruce Springsteen would make an appearance? ..and on that note, while Kerry probably wouldn't make an appearance (to avoid looking like a sore loser), certainly several high profile Dems might be willing to make an appearance.  Boxer?  Slaughter? Rangel?  Voinovich?  (there's another older senator I can picture in my mind, but his name escapes me now - he's an older black gentleman who was very much outspoken on this issue - apologies ;-(

      And then there's always Nader or Banerick or Cobb, who all challenged the results.  Did they ever get that challenge resolved?

      I'm up for a week-long camp-out sit-in shut-the-city-down protest/march.  Anyone else?  Before August, though...it can get real muggy and uncomfortable in Ohio in August...

      Think about this folks...(and some of you were probably part of this):  this nation underwent a revolution in the late 60's early 70's.  Vietnam was brought to an end - desegregation - women's right's - and there were lots of public displays of civil disobedience that were instrumental in facilitating those changes.  University students everywhere were staging sit-in's and shut-downs's....We are due for another revolution folks.  Question is:  Do you have the time to spare?

      Blogging locally, acting globally 4&20 blackbirds

      by jhwygirl on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 06:38:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Time warp (none / 1)

    Dem on the front page (always a treat!), exit polls, fraud, it's like we're back in November. Cool stuff, and phenomenal work by febble, which goes completely over my head (not because I'm a woman, mind you).

    Here's something I've been curious about--have attitudes toward political polling changed significantly over the past few decades, and might those attitudes affect polls? Are people more likely now than 30 years ago to lie to a pollster or refuse to answer? Have we been polled to death?

    "There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty." - John Adams.

    by mcjoan on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 01:33:25 PM PDT

    •  yes! (none / 1)

      the increasing tendency to not answer polls is a huge issue in the industry.

      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

      by DemFromCT on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 01:43:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  A pollster asks you to fill out (none / 0)

        an anonymous questionnaire:

        Did you vote for Bush or for Kerry

        You voted for Bush, but you lie and say you voted for Kerry?

        And thousands of people all across the country do this too?

        I find that really hard to believe.

        •  Response rate (none / 0)

          is the issue as well as sample selection in the first place.

          Everybody dies alone.

          by Armando on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 01:58:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Pollsters make adjustments (none / 0)

            for the voters who are missed or who refuse to be interviewed.  (They approach every fifth voter leaving the polling place, or every eighth, etc.)

            They use basic criteria to make the adjustments.  Age, Race Sex.  

            They make these corrections as they are taking the poll.

            So response rate and sample selection are monitored as the polling is being done.

            •  Uh huh (none / 0)

              And you don't think that the very fact they NEED to make adjustments is telling you something?

              It is an artificial device to square up the numbers.

              Look, you seem to have a lot of faith in this process. Much more  so than merited in my opinion.

              And just to show you that my distrust of polling, PARTICULARLY political polling, is a reaction to this controversy, please remember that I have been bashing the pollsters for a fair amount of time, many months before the election.

              Also realize that I deal with polling, and frankly, much better polling, in my profession.

              An example, in an ideal world, you would do a sort of trial run polling, to see what problems might arise from your questionnaire, or sample selection or whatever. To find noise that you want to eliminate.

              How can you do that for an exit poll? You can't.

              Something else, lack of a control, to measure basic flaws in the results. Again, an exit poll does not work that way.

              It justis fraught with difficulties andI wishMitofsky would have acknowledged this long before. But he needs his money.

              Everybody dies alone.

              by Armando on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 02:19:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I refer you to three texts... (none / 0)

              on exit polling that explains how the samples are drawn and reported to headquarters on election day:

              1. Mitofsky and Edelman. 1995. "A Review of the 1992 VRS Exit Polls" in Presidential Polls and the News Media (see pages 82-86 for sampling, interviewing, tabulating, and distribution of results).  Edited by Lavrakas, Traugott, and Miller; and

              2. Merkle and Edelman. 2000.  "A Review of the 1996 Voter News Service Exit Polls from a Total Survey Error Perspective" in Election Polls, the News Media and Democracy (only have electronic version from my school's database without page numbers, sorry I can't be more specific).  Edited by Lavrakas and Traugott.  

              3. Merkle and Edelman. 2002.  "Nonresponse in Exit Polls: A Comprehensive Anaylsis" in Survey Nonresponse (pg. 244-245 for how interviews are conducted and how response rates and survey error variables are operationalized).  Edited by Groves et al.  

              I don't know what "criteria" you would think would be used for applying weights.  But, if the those who refused to participate in the polls exhibited differential voting behavior than those who participated, weighting to these factors would seem only to make the "bias" worse.  
        •  Not so hard, I'm afraid ... (none / 0)

          "You voted for Bush, but you lie and say you voted for Kerry? And thousands of people all across the country do this too? I find that really hard to believe."

          Say, you're feeling cranky, irritated, bothered about something, anything. Along comes this meddlesome guy, sticking his clipboard (or whatever) at you, slowing your passage to home or work, asking you about something that is really none of his business. Maybe, after the FL 2000 exit-polling fiasco, you have no trust in nor affection for the whole idea of exit polling. So how do you respond?

          Ignore him?

          Suppress your annoyance and answer truthfully?

          Or lie about how you've just voted? Just because you can. And, because you can with impunity. That'll teach him, slowing you down!

          Perhaps it's my Irish genes that cause me to think this way, but if as few as 1 in 15 so-polled feel mischievous, and if enough of those who lie do so in one direction, it could explain the exit poll/actual count difference.

          Bonus question: which set of voters (Bush or Kerry) would be more likely to lie about their votes to exit pollers? Bonus question 2: You love Kerry for all his positions, but pull the lever for Bush because you believe him to be stronger on defense. Are you embarrassed by this choice, and so choose to lie about it? I have no clue as to the answer to these questions, or if they are relevant.

          We live in a sophisticated and very cynical age. I would be very surprised if he truthful-response rate to any poll, including exit-polls, would approach 100%.

           

          •  I covered several polls (none / 0)

            in Houston during the 2004 election and, just based on what I saw, there was a LOT of hostility towards the pollsters, mostly from probable GOP voters.

            Time and again I saw people come out of the polling place, snarl an obscenity at the pollsters, and climb into a car or (because I was in nicer areas) a luxury SUV half covered in Shrub campaign stickers, and drive off.  Then there were the GOP pollwatchers, at least two of whom were at all times watching the pollsters to make sure they didn't approach the polling place doors... while at the same time directing similar "W'd" vehicles to closer parking spaces such that the pollsters couldn't  be seen or heard.

            Several times I also saw people come out, swear up and down they voted for Kerry or a straight dem ticket, and then crawl into the Bushco Admobile and tool off.

            The upshot of this is that I believe there was a deliberate effort, possibly by the Bush campaign or possibly simply by elements of the GOP election crew, to game the exit polls and render them useless.  We already know they don't like oversight and HATE having to deal with an informed public; I think this is just one more piece of that.
            •  It makes no sense (none / 0)

              Re: The upshot of this is that I believe there was a deliberate effort, possibly by the Bush campaign or possibly simply by elements of the GOP election crew, to game the exit polls and render them useless.

              Why do that when the net effect is to cast doubt on thair own legitimacy?

              •  Because (none / 1)

                It only casts doubt to people who consider the polls meaningful... which excludes most of the wingnuts...  

                Plus they know the main people using the polls are the press and the media, whom they regard, at least here, as one of their main enemies, and anything at all they can do to destroy the crediblity of the media they will do.

                Don't forget, these people are not playing just to win within the system, they're at war with the entire idea of truly representative government as a whole, and they see the treasonous liberal media as one of the chief obstacles.  

                These are the people who own the government, the media, and 90% of the business world and are still a beseiged and embattled minority who could be wiped out in a heartbeat if they let down their guard for even a second.

                Many Texas Republicans are funny like that.  Don't try to make sense  of them by any standard other than their own, because it cannot be done.  They hold the "destroy the village to save it" mindset down here, and if they can't run the government then by GOD nobody else will either, and if the only way to stop that is to bring the entire country down, well, hell, they've got guns and oil and they'll be okay in the aftermath, and if not, well...better dead than liberal.

                Tom Delay is in trouble here because he's become a distraction from the goal, NOT because they have problems with his ideology, approach, methods, or goal.  

            •  So... let me get this straight... (none / 1)

              You are suggesting that a lot of Republican voters were upset about the exit polls of 2000. You are suggesting that their response to this is to do the one thing that would make them worse.

              In other words: they're not shy, per se, but rather stupid--and stupid on a multi-state level, but their stupidity only extends to battleground states.

              You are suggesting that the Bush campaign deliberately threw off the exit polls, as someone said below, to de-legitimize their own election.

              That seems, to me, insane. Not impossible, but just so ridiculous i can't understand what would possibly create that situation.

              The Shapeshifter's Blog -- Politics, Philosophy, and Madness!

              by Shapeshifter on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 07:16:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, I don't think you get it. (none / 1)

                YOU regard the exit polls as meaningful; thus anything which affects the accuracy of those polls affects the legitimacy of the election.  I'm pretty sure they don't see it that way; they see the entire process of exit polling as inherently illegitimate and don't regard them as having anything at all to do with the legitimacy of the election.

                They know the polls are primarily used, for predictive purposes, by the media, and they do not like the media.  The media (except of course for Fox) is, as a matter of faith and without discussion, inhabited primarily by commie pinko anti-American liberals.

                Anything which makes the exit polls inaccurate makes the media look like fools, and that's a good thing.  The more so because if the exit polls report that Kerry was doing well and the final results show that Bush did better than expected, (a) Bush looks good, and (b) it's support for their argument that the media has an ingrained liberal bias and is trying to play games with the election results.

                Does it make sense?  Only if you regard yourself as AT WAR and the press as the enemy's propaganda arm, in which case screwing with them is, far from ridiculous, an eminently patriotic and justifiable thing.  Many of these people, like most of the wingnuts elsewhere, DO so regard themselves and DO consider it, therefore, appropriate to play games with the enemy's heads.

                Houston has one major daily, the Chronicle.  It's a Hearst paper, and officers of the Hearst Publishing have referred to it on the record as their flagship paper.  It's so corporate it's painful to read.  Advertising rules, controversy hurts sales, God forbid they should hurt sales or advertisign revenue... they REALLY don't like to do that kind of reporting.

                There are members, more than a few, of the local Republican party who refuse to speak to Chronicle reporters because it's a damn liberal socialist rag.  (Admittedly these are not, to my knowledge, members of the hierarchy... those worthies, by their own admission, don't like the Chron, but they're too politically savvy to ditch it in so many words...) I've been present for this, I've seen it myself from a distance measurable in feet and inches.

                Go back to my first post:  I speak of what I saw.  I was standing there, I was listening, I was watching.  I was personally present.  Feet and inches.

                As to why -- as I said, I'm speculating... but what I saw showed a fairly consistent pattern.  I don't know who was behind it, whether it was the Bush campaign or some level of the GOP or someone else entirely, or possibly it's just the result of the mindset.  Can't say for certain.

                And I'm explicitly not speaking of polls in other states.  I wasn't there, I have no direct contacts with whom I have discussed this issue, I have no slightest idea what happened elswhere.  I saw it here.  

                Generalize past that at your own risk...  

                •  Problem: (none / 0)

                  Exit polling is a fairly refined science. We're not talking just a bunch of people going out there and throwing some numbers together.

                  Exit polls have been historically very highly accurate, though not so much in the last four years. (Curious how that works, but anyway...) The most recent example was how President Bush went around holding up exit polls as evidence of electoral fraud in Ukraine, mentioning specifically how accurate the US's exit polls are and how exit poll/counted vote discrepency ought to be treated seriously.

                  You may have been "there", but you are guessing certain actions were taken with no way of knowing whether or not those actions were actually taken.

                  Unless you were there in the voting booth with them there's simply no way of knowing which direction they voted--this, in fact, is a serious problem with the theory as the theory is completely untestable. It does not go beyond speculation. As you well admit. But since it does not go beyond speculation it fails as a reasonable counter-scenario to other proposed explanations. To a certain degree all such explanations are speculation, but some are more testable than others.

                  If electoral fraud did take place there ought to be some sort of evidence to find--to propose that, as certain pollsters have, speculation is enough to end debate on whether or not electoral fraud took place seems rather unfortunate.

                  And i'm not saying this scenario presented is totally out of the question. It just involves so much self-destructive stupidity it seems a bit eggregious even for the the Bush administration.

                  The Shapeshifter's Blog -- Politics, Philosophy, and Madness!

                  by Shapeshifter on Fri Apr 29, 2005 at 11:33:13 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Hmm... (none / 0)

                    Where do you get your information that exit polls have been historically accurate?  Also, all exit polls are not created equal.

                    I address both of these errors that were first committed by Dr. Freeman in his December paper with my critique of his earlier work that can be found here.