Daily Kos

Everything to everyone

Tue Jun 07, 2005 at 11:37:41 PM PDT

What Atrios said.
1) This blog does not exist to promote you, your blog, your business, your organization, your pet issue or cause. Failure to promote or link to any particular thing should not be taken as disapproval of it.

2. If a story falls on the front page of the New York Times, and I don't say anything about it, some people probably will manage to actually hear about it even without it appearing on this page.

3. If Josh Marshall, Tapped, the Washington Monthly, Daily Kos, Pandagon and numerous other blogs talk about something, and I don't, some people probably will manage to actually hear about it even without it appearing on this page.

4. People who write angry emails chastising me for not writing about issue X or demanding that I do so generally find their way into my spam filter. I imagine many other bloggers react similarly. See also 1) and 2) above.

5. People who write angry emails chastising me for writing about issue X and complaining that there are so many more important things to write about generally find their way into my spam filter. I imagine many other bloggers react similarly. See also 4) and 1) and 2) above.

6. Such occasional reminders are not angry bitter complaints. None of the above should discourage people from emailing me with things they think I might be interested in. There is a big difference between "this is interesting" and "you must write about this." Nor should any of the above be taken to mean that I react badly to any and all criticism of what I write. It's just the type of criticism that comes from people who get angry when this blog isn't their personal megaphone that annoys me. "What you wrote is wrong" is very different from "how dare you do/don't write about issue X."

Adding to the list:

This is a site about electoral issues, the netroots, and Iraq. Period. If you have an issue you want to tackle, whether it's environmental, Darfur, women's rights, tax reform, education, or whatever, you can 1) write a diary about it, or 2) start your own blog on the topic.

I am not the end-all, be-all of liberal blogging. I cannot be everything to everyone.

This site gives everyone the ability to air their pet issues. I don't have to write about them for them to have value. And I won't. Just like I won't write about issues that I AM interested in but stray from my core areas. Do I stray on occassion? Yeah, but I do so sparingly.

And I'm not afraid to tell people to head elsewhere if they can't find what they want here. Regarding the Pie controversy, people act offended I "kicked them off" when dismissing their concerns. It's not so much kicking people out, as saying that this site isn't everything to everyone. I am actually proud when this site spawns new sites like Booman Tribune, Liberal Streetfighter, The Next Hurrah, Steve Gilliard, Bilmon, etc. Even the new Women Kossacks site, although I wish they'd come up with a better name for the site. There are many other sites and communities out there that could use the patronage as well.

So I don't feel particularly motivated to turn Daily Kos into the EVERYTHING site for the progressive netroots. I'm going to keep within the niche I've established for myself. People can use the diaries or find fellow travellers on any number of issues on other blogs. And if they want more, or outgrow the diaries, they can always start their own blog.

It's citizen media, not Kos media. When you find this site lacking, you can do something about it. And that's the best thing about this medium.

  • ::

Tags: pie fight (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 425 comments

  •  This one is much better (3.00 / 3)

    point taken.
    Time to cut the shit out and get down to business.
    •  disagree (3.81 / 22)

      Writing as someone who reads the comments only infrequently:

      What I saw was complaint about an ad that made me uncomfortable, for, among other reasons, being geared almost exclusively towards adolescent males, as if a sizable portion of this community just didn't exist, or didn't have decision-making capabilities. After a while where I just avoided the comment,s something happened on the front page that was just flat out obnoxious.

      There was a right way to say that the ad was staying up, and there was a wrong way, and to my mind, Kos took the wrong way. He was snarky in a way that made it appear that he was dismissive about feminism -- and to the poster below, the comment below about 'this coming as a surprise to Kos's wife' sounds a hell of a lot like 'some of my best friends are Jewish,' you know?  -- and whether or not he is or isn't, you don't air your dirty laundry in public.

      This nastiness could have been avoided in large part if Kos hadn't made that crack, if his apology had, well, tried a little harder, and, failing all that, if he'd made his charges, say, below the flip rather than up front where any casual reader of this blog (i.e., someone who spends less than an hour a day here) isn't go to see them, because, frankly, it was embarrassing, like seeing a couple screaming at each other in a mall.

      Qui faciant leges ubi sola pecunia regnat? -- Petronius

      by Karl the Idiot on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 03:58:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you! (2.00 / 2)

        And well said.

        Personally, I wish he'd lose that ad.  It makes me feel like I'm logged on to some site geared toward spotty 14 year old boys, rather than thoughtful, caring and progressive people.

        Peace

        •  The ads are easily blocked (3.66 / 3)

          Depending on your web browser. Not wanting to get way to techie, Firefox has a fantastic ad blocker and its very easy to use.

          With the adblocker on, Kos could go all Guckert on us, and I wouldn't even notice.

          So, if the ads are getting you down, consider this route.

        •  LOL...don't you know that inside (4.00 / 2)

          every thoughtful, progessive and caring man is a spotty 14 year old who pops up whenever breasts come into view??? If the guys who like the ad come to DKos to post their political views instead of trolling the net for porn, give them credit for that at least, and let them have their "eye candy" if it makes them happy.

          The ad is not in good taste, but then very little on TV these days is..and certainly those "reality" shows plumb the depths of bad taste.  I know this post is probably going to get flamed for being "politically incorrect"..but let me point out that I am a feminist, and have been one since I was a child. My grandmother was a suffragette, and my mother was a founding member of NOW.  I was never taught that women couldn't do anything men could do, hence my career in the horse racing business, galloping race horses like the men, handling tough stallions like the men, etc.

          I have noticed a similarity between men and horses, they both get excited about any in season bit of fluff that comes down the pike, and handling them properly is done in the same way. I tell my friends that you handle men the same way you handle horses, firmly and with a smile. They both respond similarly. Feed them regularly, scratch them when they itch and they will do anything for you. Just think of that ad as a little scratch..LOL

          As long as they stand with us on the things that matter, like taking back this country from the fascisti that have a stranglehold on it, why fracture the front with petty crap?? If they get silly and juvenile, slap them down and go on. Don't keep nagging and complaining..it's only going to make them do it more. Like a spotty 14 year old..get it??

          What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

          by Demfem on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 08:24:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I get it and you make a good point (none / 0)

            However, I don't think this discussion is petty.

            Think of it this way...

            What if that ad were demeaning to a minority or some religious group?  WHY is it all right to put women down but people get all up in arms if an ad includes a big old white guy in black-face?

            This boy's-will-be-boys mentality isn't productive.  If someone told a racist joke here they'd be told off in no uncertain terms by ALL of us here.  Why is it ok to allow this then?

            Can someone please explain this to me?

            •  Remember tho... (none / 1)

              not all women (most even?) agree with you that the ad is offensive...

              I'm a woman, I don't take offense...

              please remember that you don't speak for everyone here... and I don't think it is in any way comparable to racism, and those that are suggesting so are grasping at straws...

              can you not just say you were offended, write a diary, do whatever, but going on and on and on about ONE advertisement on ONE blog is a waste of resources and effort...

              -9.13, -7.79 When you pray, move your feet. -African Proverb

              by L0kI on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:43:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Nicely said.... (none / 0)

            although I probably need a bit more than a good scratch once in a while.;)

            Returning this country to its sane roots is a job that definitely needs a unified front, and a lot more work.  

            Your words are very helpful.

            Really, WWFSMD?

            by sp0t on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 09:30:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Week before's Gender User Poll (none / 0)

            Hmmm..

            A week or so ago, kos posted a poll to determine gender balance of users, and it was 60/40 more or less, male/female.  

            Then, Pie.

            Just wonderin' how the ad placement decision timing relates to the poll. If it does.

            (PC: -5.75, -6.56) Good men through the ages, tryin' to find the sun, still I wonder, still I wonder, who'll stop the rain? -J. Fogerty

            by RichRandal on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 10:59:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Geez (none / 0)

            Sometimes I think I'll never understand straight men.

            Terrance Heath
            Washington, DC
            terrancedc@earthlink.net
            http://www.republicoft.com

            by TerranceDC on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 05:55:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Well said (3.75 / 4)

        Those who complained were taking the appropriate action, and Markos' response was rude. A media outlet (dKos) is showing an advertisement which some people find offensive. They protested to the proprietor, then took their business elsewhere. It is exactly what any of us would do with any media outlet, and Markos should not have taken it so personally (though in all honesty, I didn't read many of the protest comments, so I have no idea how personal people were getting with him).

        I also think this latest response from Markos shows a bit of naïveté. This is not Eschaton. This is no longer a niche blog, regardless of how limited the scope of Markos' front page posts. This is the largest, most visited, most prestigious liberal blog. We have congress-people posting here, for crying out loud.

        It is telling that Markos writes "I am not the end-all, be-all of liberal blogging. I cannot be everything to everyone." This shows an inability to separate himself from the blog. I can totally understand this... this blog is his baby. But it is bigger than him, now: it is the community. It has already become "everything to everyone," whether Markos intended that or not, and whether he likes it or not. Note the difference: HE is not everything to everyone, but his blog is. He should be able to acknowledge this.

        I think the larger concern of those who protested wasn't simply that they found the ad offensive, but what the posting of the ad here says about the left as a whole. This is the #1 liberal blog, and it does have an impact on the left as a whole and how we are perceived. Thus, I think Markos does have a responsibility to represent the left in the best light possible when it comes to choosing advertisers.

        That's just my 2 cents.

      •  Adolescent males? (4.00 / 2)

        LOL! I don't know about you but when I was an adolescent I didn't frequent progressive blogs about america's future.

        If you are going to complain about the misfiring on the target audience of this blog(which I think you're right on), you should take it up with the advertiser and their marketing dept. Apparently they view this as a good place to advertise things that appeal to what you deem as adolescent. It would be like advertising Bob Marley's greatest hits on Fox News or something. It's probably a big mistake on the record labels part but Fox has every right to let the advertisers make that mistake.

        If that ad made you uncomfortable then you live in an extremely isolated and comfortable community. That sounds a lot like my republican coworker here in NC, which is very frightening.

        Everyone's always in favor of saving Hitler's brain. But when you put it in the body of a great white shark, oh! Suddenly you've gone too far!-Futurama

        by McJagger on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 11:56:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I want to tell you what ads you can run (3.62 / 16)

    But I am going to start first with the Village Voice, the progressive weeklies and ethnic papers, get them to cut out the porn.

    Once that is done, then i'll come after you.

    Everybody dies alone.

    by Armando on Tue Jun 07, 2005 at 11:46:33 PM PDT

    •  What's wrong with porn? (3.20 / 5)

      The puritans are killing us!
    •  I tried to alert Markos to a suspiciously... (none / 0)

      ...trollish advertiser, but I don't know if he ever saw it. It was a text ad that linked to a site defending the Nielsen company's survey methodology that undercounts minorities. Its gone now. Here is my diary about it.

      dKos Advertiser: MurdochWatch.org - Who Are They Pimping For?

      If they really are shills for Nielsen or their CorpMedia clients, that's way more serious than the pie fight dust up.

      • • Get Your John McCain - NOPE T-Shirts & Stickers

      by KingOneEye on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:12:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Who cares? (3.00 / 2)

        They're giving Kos money. I'd hope anyone smart enough to find this site wouldn't be swayed by an obvious shill.

        We are the facilitators of our own creative evolution. - Bill Hicks

        by rjo on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:16:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I hope Markos cares. (none / 1)

          I don't think he would want to take money from a sham organization, masquerading as a progressive ally. Its not really obvious at all.

          Just my impression, that's all.

          • • Get Your John McCain - NOPE T-Shirts & Stickers

          by KingOneEye on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:35:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I agree with you (none / 1)

            Markos, take note.

            Everybody dies alone.

            by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:36:40 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If they are shills (none / 0)

              for Nielsen or their CorpMedia clients, it's at least a sign one segment of the right wing noise machine is starting to get us. If they're paying $2,000 a month so DailyKos keeps its servers fired up I welcome them.

              (0+ / 0-), (0+ / 0-), it's off to kos I go...

              by doorguy on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 03:49:21 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So if the Swift Boat Vets... (none / 1)

                ...made up a fake pro-environment group to solicit donations to further their campaign of lies, you think Kos should take their money and run the ad?

                • • Get Your John McCain - NOPE T-Shirts & Stickers

                by KingOneEye on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 10:01:56 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  hmmmmm (none / 1)

                  Apples and oranges my friend. A bit over the top.

                  Additionally, it would be impossible for them to do that without some legal ramifications. If you pose as a pro-environment PAC or fund raiser you are obligated to serve that function. If they purported to be pro-environment then they would have to live up to that billing or face a serious lawsuit. So that's ridiculous.

                  The sad fact of the matter is that money helps keep this place up and running. If you have spare change to throw at this blog that can make it completely community run then I'm sure everyone would like that. However, since that's not going to happen anytime soon advertising will continue. At least there are no popups or weird flash advertisements that you have avoid. Look at it that way.

                  Everyone's always in favor of saving Hitler's brain. But when you put it in the body of a great white shark, oh! Suddenly you've gone too far!-Futurama

                  by McJagger on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 11:16:43 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Its all apples, my friend (none / 0)

                    Swift Boat Vets fronting as environmentalists or CorpMedia fronting as civil rights advocates. Pretty much the same thing. And I wouldn't take money from either of them.

                    • • Get Your John McCain - NOPE T-Shirts & Stickers

                    by KingOneEye on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 11:46:57 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  you cynic you (none / 0)

                      I agree with you on that but I don't see it's relation to the ad in question. the corporate media doesn't care about civil rights (maybe they once did) and are much more interested in the bottom line. Producers run the show now and so pretty much every outro on a newscast sounds something like "check in tomorrow where so and so will tell you about something under your sink that might be toxic and fodder for potential terrorists".

                      I'm happy to see corporate media go, but they will always have their hands in it in some way. That doesn't apply as much in a blog though because helpful people like you can point this stuff out and uncover things yourselves. It's a wonderful thing really. I'm glad we have advertisers for the site, regardless of their affiliation, etc but I'm even more glad that we can slap the advertisers around like so many people are doing and can throw important newsstories into the open that would almost certainly get no coverage by the MSM (aka Rupert Murdoch, Les Moonves, etc).  

                      Everyone's always in favor of saving Hitler's brain. But when you put it in the body of a great white shark, oh! Suddenly you've gone too far!-Futurama

                      by McJagger on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:15:38 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I think we may have crossed wires. (none / 0)

                        Are you talking about the pie ad? My post above is about the MurdochWatch ad. The relationship between that ad and civil rights is that The Alliance For Civil Rights is the org that runs MurdochWatch. But I can't find any evidence that its a legitmate org.

                        • • Get Your John McCain - NOPE T-Shirts & Stickers

                        by KingOneEye on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:39:51 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Indeed (none / 1)

                          Right on man. That's actually the best post I've read on this site thus far about the MurdochWatch ad. Let me know if you find anything solid on it. That's a very interesting tidbit. If true, then this thing could go deeper than just that ad. That's what these blogs are for.
                          I've heard of republicans and the gop pulling some dirty tactics. In Philly they put up fliers in low income housing areas that said "If it rains or you don't have time to vote on the 2nd you can vote up to friday" which is completely untrue and very devious. They made the handout look like believable and there were reports they paid some of the neighborhood kids to distribute them.

                          Everyone's always in favor of saving Hitler's brain. But when you put it in the body of a great white shark, oh! Suddenly you've gone too far!-Futurama

                          by McJagger on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:42:07 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

        •  The ads a publication/media outlet accepts... (none / 1)

          ...says as much about the nature of said outlet as the editorial content. Publications routinely reject ads that they feel are not appropriate for their tone and audience. Or at the very least, ask that the ads be revised.

          My problem with the pie ad(s) have nothing to do with any kind of morality, but with what it does to the representation of this site.

          It's shallow, superficial, and stupid, which is not what I think of DailyKos. I've been more informed about the political workings of the USA in the past 6 months than I ever have. The prominent pie ad does nothing to reinforce the nature of the information provide here. At a casual glance, a new comer or other persons unfamiliar with the site are going to get a mis-impression at first glance because pictures are more quickly processed than words.

      •  Interesting question... (none / 0)

        I do agree you shouldn't let groups who have a nefarious goal use the site for advertising.

        But, honestly, I'm not certain that your diary presented a case for this.  It seems to rely upon several assumptions, which you don't really substantiate.

        The domain is registered to xntec.com, which seems to be a New York City based web company.  Their major client appears to be the Humane Society.  They also have some news about hosting the September 11th fund, and some stuff for Rosie Odonnell and Boy George.

        I don't understand where you get the impression they are shills for Nielsen.

        Even more troublesome, you don't even make the accusation outright... you're doing a... "If they really are shills for Nielsen" plausible deniability wimp ass lame-o argument.

        Come on, do you have proof for your accusation or not?

        (0.00,-3.13) "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it."

        by Steve4Clark on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 08:16:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You might want to -read- the diary. (none / 0)

          Look, if you think the diary didn't make the case, fine, that's your opinion. But to say it didn't present the case makes me wonder if you even read it.

          I don't want to re-publish the whole thing here. People can read it for themselves. I'll just respond to your assertions.

          "It seems to rely upon several assumptions..."
          That's right. And I said in my diary that a lot of it was based on suspicion and speculation... But that's partly because there was so little real data available about the advertiser.

          "The domain is registered to xntec.com..."
          I also said that in my diary. They are a web development firm. Their client list tells us nothing about the client. And the client tells us nothing either.

          "I don't understand where you get the impression they are shills for Nielsen."
          Well, the fact that they are attacking the groups that are critical of Nielsen might have something to do with it. And they don't even respond to the critics salient arguments about minority undercounts. They just attack, like shills are known to do.

          "you don't even make the accusation outright..."
          Huh? Everything I said was said outright. Did I leave the door open? Yes. Because the mysterious nature of the group leaves many questions. I asked those questions and suggested Markos look into it further. Would you rather I make ad hominem attacks like they were gospel without nailed-down proof (like shills are known to do)?

          And speaking of ad hominem attacks, your "wimp ass lame-o argument" comment says more about you than me or my arguments.

          My diary was not about proof. It was a heads-up for Markos. There was plenty to be suspicious about, but if there was nothing to it, than he could ascertain that and move on. If you don't think a generically-named, unidentifiable group that takes Nielsen's side in support of a discrimanatory new survey process is worthy of looking into, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but that doesn't mean they aren't out to get us.

          • • Get Your John McCain - NOPE T-Shirts & Stickers

          by KingOneEye on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 09:54:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sigh (none / 1)

            I did read the diary.

            You just don't make a very compelling argument.

            I'm sorry that you can't see that and think we should all take you at face value.

            (0.00,-3.13) "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it."

            by Steve4Clark on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 10:58:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I call your Sigh and raise you a Phew (none / 0)

              Are you really sorry that I can't see that I don't make a very compelling argument? Because I can use all the sympathy I can get.

              Please note that if I'm making an argument, as you allege, then, by definition, I'm not asking to be taken at face value. But note further that I am not making an argument. I am expressing a suspicion which, I believe, Markos is fully capable of assessing and acting upon (or not) on his own.

              Note, finally, that you didn't address even one of my substantive responses to your criticism.

              But thanks for the sympathy.

              • • Get Your John McCain - NOPE T-Shirts & Stickers

              by KingOneEye on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:05:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  My suspicion... (none / 0)

                Is that you're a freeper troll, trying to discredit an anti-Murdoch website.

                I have no evidence to support this claim, but I make it anyway.

                I'm assuming you will not question my claim, and simply take it at face value, because that is what you expect all of us to do with your theory.

                (0.00,-3.13) "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it."

                by Steve4Clark on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:19:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  My suspicion... (none / 0)

                  ...is that you're off your meds.

                  I gave the reasons behind my suspicions in my diary. You ignored them. I reiterated those reasons above. You ignored them again. No wonder you keep accusing me of wanting you to take something at face value. You ignore all my reasons then claim I haven't given any.

                  Yeah, I'm a pro-Murdoch, freeper troll - RIGHT!

                  Have a nice day.

                  • • Get Your John McCain - NOPE T-Shirts & Stickers

                  by KingOneEye on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 02:23:20 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  seriously (none / 0)

      I don't see at all how asking Kos to take an ad down while not holding mass protests against every progressive weekly in the nation is somehow inconsistent or hypocritical.

      But I do appreciate you reminding us just how crappy some of these progressive weeklies are.

      •  You don't? (none / 0)

        It is hard for me to see how you cannot see how it is hypocritical.

        Everybody dies alone.

        by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:32:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Porn ads ... (none / 0)

          Failure to want to remedy all the flaws of the world may be a vice, but it is not the vice of hypocrisy.
          •  It is indeed (none / 0)

            hypocrisy.

            For if the concern was SINCERE in its entirety, the BIGGER sin would strike outrage.

            I have NEVER EVER heard a word about it.

            Have you?

            Everybody dies alone.

            by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:52:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Nope (none / 0)

              But then I don't make a habit of reading those mags so didn't know about the ads.

              I don't think it is hypocrisy because the failure to do something about a bad thing need not be motivated by the belief that it isn't really bad.  If it were, then it would be a matter of hypocrisy because there would be an inconsistency in judgment.  But not doing something about the mag ads is more plausibly caused by the firm belief that any protest would be utterly ineffective.  Now that may be a problematic belief, but it isn't hypocrisy.

              Nice example though ...

              •  I question the idea (none / 0)

                that folks do not know about those ads.

                I question why they have not protested those ads?

                If I am right on their knowledge, and those ads have run for years and years, how can you escape the conclusion that hypocrisy is afoot?

                Everybody dies alone.

                by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:07:16 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I still want to know (none / 0)

                  if liberals are supposed to be pro-porn or not.  Is it a freedom of speech thing or a subjugation of woman thing.

                  Someone please tell me what to think

                  McCain = "A whine, a swear word, and P.O.W."

                  by ETinKC on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:16:24 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Ads (3.83 / 6)

                  You're in PR right?  I'm in NC.  We should both be in bed.  Seriously.  But here goes:

                  1.  I don't know what other people know about.  Beats me really.  I assume they might know.  But even so ...

                  2.  I think of hypocrisy as an inconsistency in ethical judgment typically motivated by some form of selfishness, e.g. "abortions are murder ... (except when my daughter is knocked up by some lowlife)."

                  3.  I don't think a failure to act against something bad entails you don't think it is bad.  There are lots of reasons why you might not act.  Typically, one might fail to act because one believes it to be a waste of energy.  

                  4.  I don't think ethics requires that one acts or even protests everything that one judges to be bad.  The list is too long.  But that might be me just being a bit jaded.

                  5.  What would be hypocrisy is if someone thought that it was OK for a magazine to have pornographic ads, but not OK for DKos to have the pie fight thing.  Or at least they would need a really good explanation for such a position.  I doubt it could be good.  But I don't see anyone advancing such a position.

                  6.  In any case, the ad hominem must be avoided - hypocrisy is the homage vice pays virtue, and even hypocrites can be right some of the time.
            •  all right... (4.00 / 7)

              I'll engage on the sillier level.

              Weekly newspapers and blogs are not the same thing.  Weekly newspapers are something you pick up once a week.  The community connection is usually at most through the occasionally recognized names in the Letters To Editor section.  The weekly is seen as a tiny subset of the community it seeks to represent.  It is easy to pass off the weekly as an irrelevant expression of the values of said community.

              Daily kos is something that regular participants check mutliple times a day.  The community connection is strong, through shared conversations, comment threads, diaries, stories, and even a branded identification of people meeting people through getting to know each other on kos.  The community is tightly linked to the website.  The community sets its own mores and own standards, separate from the hands-off management style of kos himself.  It is very easy to take the behavior of the site's authors as an expression and representation of the community's values.

              That is not to say the community member is correct.  But if a community member sees values expressed that conflict with their own understandings of community mores, they will very understandably feel moved to protest in a way that they won't against a progressive weekly.

              And I'd also argue that this is a pattern that is built into daily kos, and markos frankly should see it coming - it'll keep happening.  You build an awesome community that can set its own rules and develop its own standards, but then you also occasionally nail down your own interpretation of what the standards really are.  Of course there's going to be tension.

              •  I think this post is his answer (none / 1)

                Frankly, he should never have posted the previous one.

                This is the bottom line.

                Everybody dies alone.

                by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:05:57 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  it'll happen again (none / 0)

                  and again.
                •  Can't Unring a Bell, Unfortunately (4.00 / 9)

                  I totally agree, Armando, that this post by kos is 100% reasonable and that this should have been his reply in the first place.

                  Unfortunately, it wasn't. And his initial reply upset many, many more people than those ridiculous ads did, and it should have upset them. It was demeaning and dismissive of a big chunk of the dKos community. And, as this post nicely illustrates, it really didn't have to be.  

                  But kos can't unsay what he's said.  As I've written before on previous pie-fight threads, all kos can do is change his behavior and slowly win back people's trust (which I assume he'd want, because this blog even by his own account is designed not just to give kos a platform, but to make a political difference).  But for him to change in this way, he needs to admit that there's a problem. And I don't mean publicly admit it...in fact, I'd rather he didn't at this point. I mean admit it to himself.

                  This nicely summarizes what's wrong with American political life today. (Source)

                  by GreenSooner on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 05:31:32 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  nice (none / 1)

            I like that.  I'd have just said, "pick your battles".  :)
            •  So this battle (none / 1)

              is the one?

              Hard for me to believe that serious people who care about the issue would pick THIS battle.

              Perhaps you are agreeing with me.

              Everybody dies alone.

              by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:54:53 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hey Armando, (none / 0)

                after all the criticism you get painting you as some sort of bullying nightmare, I just wanted to say (as quick as I can) that I think you have been unbelievably moderate and fair through this whole debate. You're doing a great job on a very painful and confusing issue.
              •  maybe I should just stay out of this and go on (4.00 / 4)

                but it was nto the ad in and of itself that might have taken me a few days or so to get agitated about,  It grew into somethat that was a womans issue...

                This is of itself what I find funny.  Instead of the men trying to understand where some of us women were coming from and our age and generation, we were dismissed as being nonsensable or stiring the feces.  I beg yoru pardon!?  It is ppl like myself who are the mothers of thsi generation of which you guys belong.  I start to wonder about your bringing up and who might have tought you your ideals.  Surely not your mothers...must have been the father or big brother or someone on the street corner.

                I an not a prude...by a long shot in definition, I just happend to mature and change my thoughts on things...like someof youguys have not.  I used to could take porn or leave it...til I became a mom...that changed most of a lot of what I used to think in the past.  NOw that I am a grandmother and in a world that has become more dangerous to live in, I see the danger before youguys wake up to smell the coffee.

                That is what it is like to be a older and more mature woman.  With that being said, I am not trying to be stronger thanyou or being smarter than you, allI am saying is listen to me and what I might have to say and diget it cuz, it might save you or your daughter or your sister or someone who is a woman that you love.  I have many years behind me that give me creedence. That is all some of us women out here are saying toyou guys. Give us a chance to say what being a woman is all about.  Yes I have been abuse...in many was, cuz I let those men abuse me...I chnage that factor for the betterment.  I am now able to see it coming my way a long time before I get hooked....that comes with experience.  Of which some ofyou do not have.  

                I am just saying, look at my caution sign I out to you for you need to take heed.  Stop, look and listen for once in your life..it might just do you some good.

                One thing I am very sure of and that is we are all human around here.  We all can learn a lot about other by just listening and learning.

                Do not consider you as an authority on everything, especially about women...for bub, you are not...most men do not even begin to touch the real surface as to what women are truly about.  I can say the same thing about me and men...but I do know I am an older woman and you need nto deman me any futher....I came of my own freewill and I can leave of my own free will...that decision is left up to me.  And believe you me, I will nto let the door hit my butt on the way out either...

                Yes I am angry that the men in here that I trusted to be sensitive to womans issues turned out not to be those and those that I thougth werent, are...goes to say about my cyberjudgment of ppl, huH??!!

                I can honestly say I ma the wiser for being here and learning aboutmuch..including this issue.

                I will stay, and I will post if I feel like it.  Until such time as I beCome someone who has nothing to contribute to thIS spot, ANYHOW.  yoU CAN TAKE ME OR LEAVE ME, i DO NOT CARE.

                Now that I have said my peice, try hard to understand us women..what ever we are and who we are like we are asked to understand you guys....I will respect you if you respect me.  otherwise...well, you know what I mean...it is a 2-way street here Hon.

                •  btw, Kos, I ran across your site (3.50 / 2)

                  by accident and likes it when I came here.  I did not expect you to be everything to me or anyone else.  I think you are taking this all wrong.
                  I can see why you are agitated.  You are after all just a young man who has a wife who happens to have a mind of her own.  I just ask you to be open minded to others and their feelings on issues.  I have to be...why not you??  I accepted your apology; however it is you that will not let lying dogs lie.  I want to suggest we all get a grip here...this is being taken way out of context...Just remember the origional diary and what many have had to say.

                  I have even got discusted with it.  

                  BTW, you are not everything to me...I do have a life.  and I will go on in my life, no matter if youare around or not.  This is just a means for me to vent and it saved me from being so damn frustrated in politics that I was becoming nerotic at a point in this whole political thing.

                  If you really want to discuss womens issues, then maybe it is about time we do such.  I mean really open and even handed debate.  That is something I think most of you guys do not want to have...I see it scare you to death let alone to adress.  I have seen it here with my very own eyes.  

                  •  some democrats and most republicans are (none / 0)

                    hypocrits for not really openly discussing womens issues...it is men who want to tell women what to think and do with their lives...It is men who have address the abortion issue..it is men who have addressed the womens health issue...it is men who have just about dominated the womens issues of everything.  some women fall in line with those men and say what ever they say is fine with me...ie, mrs. dole..and ht elike of her.  they do not have an origional thought in their pretty little heads...I was so angry with babs bush when she came out and said her mind was tooooo beautiful to even think of dead in time of war...remember that when she came out and said things like that...I condem her for that statement...who does she think she is...I know none of her loved ones will die in a war..therefore she will nto even begine to think of death in that manner...shame on her an dothers who are of that mind thought...see, I can come oup with things that you guys have dismissed a long time ago. I have remained silent for way tooo long for you to not give me a say on what is in my heart and what is on my mind.  Who give you that right...surely not me...Ihave found my voice and you can not shut me up...If I have to I can take it to my vote for someone who is closed minded, like my congressman.  He is so stupic an dhe is a democrat.  It burns my butt to have him do some of the stupid things he does.  I wil not ever vote for him again...
                    •  ....and Kos, do not tell me about harold ford, (none / 0)

                      Bub, I happen to live int he state he comes from and I think that give me some idea of who the man really is.  I detest someone who thinks they know everything about everything.  

                      I have got to get to work...I just had to rant this am and get this off my heart. Why should women leave here?....I ask you why...cuz they do not agree with you...cuz they are woman...cuz they are a minority....cuz we are to be the weaker sex...I ask you to personally search your hearts and really find legit answers for me by the time I come back...I will stay and fight with you if you want me...but if you do not want me by our side, I know many that would...It is YOUR decision....Think about it and stew about it and get angry if you must...but really ask yourseves what is your true motive here...I really want to know....I will not let you are anyone else abuse me like I hve been inthe past...I do not have to take any more..if you really knew me, I am very sure you would love me to death...I am your grandmother, youdo remember those dont you?????  I pray on a daily basis that you men wake up and give some of my aruguments a thought today...I am a very sincere and loving person...you might even take a liken into me if you learn to hear me and listen to me and see for yourself what you want to see in me...not what others have said about women and me..I am open minded on things...I give othrs the benefit of the doubt....I try to stay on message...I treat othrs as I would want to be treated.  

                •  This might sound ******** (none / 1)

                  but I think you have a very "Americanized" view of the world.

                  Which is fine, because we are in America.

                  However, I like Plutonium Page's points in the Pie Fight because I think that our culture is a little bit underdeveloped and immature.  I liked the contrast of European vs. American sexuality.  Place me firmly in the European camp.  Gay porn, straight porn, guns, loud neighbors, right wing hate djs, rap music, even SUVS to an extent-very little offends me except for creating more terrorists by killing innocent people in hegemonic actions...but I realize, that's just my perspective.

                  It's funny because I'm no dazzling cosmopolitan but you'll see me harsh (and I do mean harsh) on anyone (including fellow Kossites) who wants to step on your reproductive rights...yet I get thrown into the "frat boy" subjugation by a whole slew of people that don't know me?  If only people knew about the savage fights I get into defending abortion.  On many other sites, in many other places....  

                  Hmmm.  I've never been a frat boy, but our 2 presidential candidates were....

                  It is a 2 way street.  The fact that some posters seem to focus on men as the sole cause of this problem is wrong.  For whatever reasons you want to label, a portion of women (and a number of men) feel they have to "buy in" to a culture that demands youth and beauty.  Just look at the bottom lines for the beauty industry.  So I'm saying, blame your co-horts (other women) as much as me, if you need lay blame....  Madison Ave. is as responsible for our "ideas" as our parents, in my opinion, maybe moreso for many, but ultimately, the individual is responsible....

                  Yet, where do we draw the line?  Is a haircut "beautification" and appropriate?

                  "You can't awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."-Navajo saying.

                  by quartzite on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 09:47:26 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  To top it off (4.00 / 2)

        The voice and most of these weeklies are owned by fairly substantial corporations whereas Markos blogs from his house.

        Their revenue is in the millions where as markos makes enough for his own family.

        Again, it astounds me that you do not see the hypocrisy.

        Everybody dies alone.

        by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:35:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  allow me to expand (none / 1)

          First so you don't put the wrong parameters on what I'm saying.

          I don't believe that Kos has a responsibility to take down the ad.  I do think the people asking for the ad to be taken down have a point.  Simply because they feel an emotional attachment to the community, that they might not tend to feel for their local weekly.  And I think there's plenty of room for Kos to respond to that emotional attachment by taking the ad down.  As a favor and gesture.  Not as an expectation.

          Kos can also respond by saying that folks don't have the right to feel that level of ownership over the community standards.  As he did.  But it doesn't mean that it by definition prevents him from taking the ad down.  It'd be voluntary, but I also think it would be classy.

          Now, do I think it is weird for someone to get all high and mighty and indignant about the ad soiling one's screenspace if they don't give a progressive weekly ad a second thought?  Yeah.  Cherry-picked indignance bugs me much the same as it seems to bug you.

          But like I said, I'd prefer the ads be gone from both places, rather than have them be present at both.  

          •  And (none / 0)

            I am for the eradication of world hunger.

            Sorry for the snark, but see, when Summers was an issue here, because I made it one, the women of dailykos were not in force on the frontlines with me.

            So it is hard for me to take this issue too far with them.

            This is the straw that breaks the camel's back?

            There is something way suspicious in that.

            Everybody dies alone.

            by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:51:09 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  curious (none / 1)

              Yeah, I have engaged with you regarding your repeated allusions to the protests being insincere or suspicious.

              I honestly am not sure what you are saying.  What's your theory of what is really going on here?

              Not asking to challenge, I'm honestly curious what you think.

              As for the other matter, I think it's fine - and rational - to invest extra energy in a smaller battle you think you might win when the bigger battle is so big that you know you can't win.

              •  (typo) (none / 0)

                (I meant "haven't" in the first sentence above.)
              •  What motivated the protest? (none / 0)

                I dunno.

                Are some using the brouhaha for their own agenda? I think so.

                Smaller battles? This ad is not even a dustup. The fucking ad is running on TV!

                So is it about dailykos? That is why? Then my question returns, before there was a dailykos, there was a Village Voice, and the Village Voice has basically run ads for porn for years.

                Where is the outrage?

                There is something not right about this whole thing.

                Everybody dies alone.

                by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:10:24 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  yeah (none / 0)

                  interesting.

                  as for the voice, I can't speak for others.  But see my comment about it in mcjoan's thread - I stopped reading most prog-weeklies  ages ago, partly for that reason.  It wasn't simply that I got all puritanical about the ads in the back, it was just that those ads being so pervasive, combined with the general tone of the writing, just contributed to an overall feel that I found really unattractive.  Snark is fine as a spice, but when it's your main narrative voice... ugh.

                  I also don't listen to Air America for the same sorts of reasons.  

                •  Dont think it was about the ad for most (4.00 / 6)

                  I think it was about a Kos comment combined with a lot of comments from posters that were or were seen as "mysogonistic", "anti-women" and "sexist".
                  I think the Ad thing may have started the "debate" but what caused the anger and exodus was what happened later.
                  Just my interpretation from what I have read here and on other sites.  
                •  simple (none / 0)

                  it is about "which issue is getting single issued out?"

                  that's it.

                  I'm getting bored of it, as much as I do obviously care, because maybe it's just a blog and not a political organization.

                •  People feel personally betrayed by Markos (4.00 / 2)

                  That's the difference. Nobody feels personally betrayed by the Villiage Voice. Nobody gives a personal shit about the VV.

                  When a friend tells people I'm a gigantic asshole of a socially-awkward fat man (with a computer), that hurts in a way that the same words, from some random idiot doesn't.

                  Problem is, people give Markos too much credit. They want to think he speaks for them, for us. They feel he's a spokesman, not just a webgeek. So a disagreement like this is quite painful. They're feeling disrepected by someone they respect--that's tough to deal with. But there's no hidden agenda, and no hypocrisy.

                  The real question is, why is this topic so much more fun than all the political issues of the day? Yay, pie!

              •  There were plenty (none / 0)

                of people who were honestly offended by the ad. But there was definately a contingent who only wanted to fan the flames, probably for some other slight. Plus there were a few trolls who decided this was their dream come true. Fuck with the highest trafficed democratinc site on the web.
                •  maybe (none / 1)

                  I saw the earlier version, I guess, but all I knew of this was what markos wrote.

                  So that's the out of the blue part.  The anger at the sanctimonious women's studies set is the revelation.

                  Hey... I'm not taking it as a big thing.  Everyone has faults... that's my philosophy, I can handle it.  But choose a metaphor, the ball is in whose court, who wants whom, what is the purpose of dkos as an organization, as a community.

                  Honestly I'm not enforcing answers.  I'm very cynical about all these issues... like Neil Young looking for the heart of gold.

                •  No, you are not getting it... (4.00 / 19)

                  People, including women Kossacks, weren't half as offended by the ad as they were by Kos' remarks.

                  I could live the ad, within reason, because it wasn't about me.  Do I like it?  Hell, no.  I hate it on TV.  It's jiggle shit.

                  Kos' responses to his wife are not the issue.  (It also doesn't prove he likes women, either.)

                  I also understand that Kos wants to make money for his blog.  To me, that's not the issue either.

                  It's Kos' responses to other women that is the issue.  To many others, it was the feather that broke the camel's back., which why certain women responded so angrily.

                  This is not some forearmed 'contingent.'  These were women who eschewed for months a lot of what they perceived as guff that they wished they hadn't have to deal with in order to interact with other progressive Dems.  That's loyalty in a way.  Loyalty that isn't even talked about here.  Loyalty that gives money, time and word of mouth to other Dems.

                  I think that this dust-up is also generational.  I'm in my early fifties.  I don't mind putting my intellectual hat on and redefining what is sexist or what is desire cum advertising for me. Feminists since the early 1980s (before some of you guys were even BORN or conscious) have been trying to bring this redefinition of feminism's responses to these issues to the mainstream for years.

                  However, lumping all feminists together without a clear understanding of about who believes what and more importantly why is like rolling over someone's feet with a car.  Those who read about the past don't have the same experiences as those who live/d it.  There is a limit.

                  Telling people that they should start their own blog is not necessarily the answer.  Saying that you refuse to understand because it's your blog is not the answer either.  Of course, it sounds like my way or the highway.  Repubs aren't the only ones who preach this line.

                  Just my two cents.

                  An untypical Negro...since 1954.

                  by blksista on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 03:42:12 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I think you are right (none / 1)

                    all down the line. I thought Markos' initial reaction was pretty damn bad and said so in numerous threads yesterday. I'm also not comfortable throwing issues over the side, although I've never seen him say that as much as I've seen him say that there are times that they shouldn't be so forcefully pushed.

                    But my point in this comment was that there were some people who would not allow people to be reasonable on this yesterday. No matter what was said or who was saying it, a small group of people were jumping in to fan the flames.

                    •  Well, just like another poster on another thread (4.00 / 3)

                      tried to rationalize Kos' responses from getting jerked around off-blog by angry e-mails, there are people who are still angry and those who are probably agents provacateurs even from the wingnuts trying to kill DailyKos.

                      As you probably have figured out, I don't buy the rationalization for Kos' popping off either.  It was puerile.  There was a way in which Kos could have dealt with his anger and been able to mollify the real anger and disgust from male and female Kossacks from reaching critical mass.  It's apparent he doesn't have those skillz.

                      Well, it's over now.  He lost his chance, and possibly some really great people.  Maybe he and some of you other cats will learn something over this and other issues. But maybe not.

                      Have I decided to leave DailyKos?  Not at this time, and really, I have a novel to finish. I think going back and forth among DailyKos and some other feminist blogs might do it for me.

                      I am, however, getting pretty tired of not only educating people about racism, but about sexism, too.  Over and over again.  And when you tell people over and over again, it is much more about their not wanting to change or disturb their comfort level.

                      Just my two cents.

                      An untypical Negro...since 1954.

                      by blksista on Thu Jun 09, 2005 at 04:41:00 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  If people don't like the ads, (none / 0)

                  they can subscribe and not look at the ads. I am thinking of subscribing since not having the ads will make the pages load faster..always a plus. And the subscription will diminish the need for the ads we don't care for. If all the posters were subscribers, Kos wouldn't need ads. Or at least, not ones like that. Right??

                  What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

                  by Demfem on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 08:38:13 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  this is? (4.00 / 3)

              Armando... it's not the ad, it's "the sanctimonious woman's studies set"!  strikeout or not.

              as for the Summers thing, I was/am on your side and I saw a lot of the women going "eh", perhaps not as much as you say but sure, whatever... that's how they felt about that issue.

              You are speaking as though they are bound to be reactive on women's issues.

              Assume they didn't mind Summers... that's not the best example, but especially since it's not just this ad, it's the response there.

              The ad is like the spark of this wild fire.

              I'm realizing, much after reacting I have to admit, that I probably didn't read the original debates on this, and certainly nothing sent to markos, so who knows how it escalates... not me, I only know the part I've seen.

          •  There are women of dailykos (3.20 / 5)

            Women kossacks, who say the site and markos are deliberately anti-women.

            That is a vile lie.

            There is a lot of sin in what is being done in the name of protesting this.

             

            Everybody dies alone.

            by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:53:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yeah, I noticed that (none / 0)

              here and at Booman when I perused the site earlier. I'm sure his wife will be surprised.
            •   sin...? (none / 1)

              those Jezebels
            •  anti-women (3.50 / 2)

              I haven't seen the allegations that the site is deliberately anti-women, but I'd think they were ridiculous too if I saw them.  Accidental bias against women would be a good discussion, but deliberate is just kinda silly.  dailykos being deliberate about almost anything is kinda silly.
              •  Indeed (none / 0)

                Take a look.

                Everybody dies alone.

                by Armando on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 01:12:12 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Accidental bias (none / 0)

                It is silly to think the dkos community could totally avoid the sexism, racism and other isms of the larger society.

                I think Kos's new statement is much better. I don't think he needs to apologize profusely in public. As someone said above it would be nice if we all could admit to ourselves that we may unconsciously hold these attitudes too.

                I remember reading letters to the editor in the Village Voice complaining about the porn ads. I haven't seen one recently, but I bet the alternative weeklies receive complaints on a fairly regular basis.

                Accidental (unconscious) bias can be displayed in deliberate actions. Statements that dismiss other people's concerns are generally not well received.

                I'm heating up some apple pie for breakfast

                "I'm President of the United States and I'm not going to eat any more broccoli." George H. W. Bush

                by Son of Broccoli on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 07:50:53 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  a lie? (none / 0)

              you use that word way too easily.

              this is rhetoric you are talking about.

            •  PROVE IT! (none / 1)

              Show me where it said that Markos or the whole goddamn DailyKos as a whole was deliberately anti-women? I have been in those discussions and NO, that is a lie.

              But I can tell you this. Markos' definition of the netroots and his alleged commitment to growing them are not aligned with his actions. It takes more than telling people, go make your own site. It takes more than just saying "I'm committed" when he has more resources --and no I am not talking just about money-- at his disposal.

              There is no tactical vision when you say 3 things are the only "important shit" to write about. Markos did not apologize for that comment because you and I know that he does not consider identity politics important at all.

              But the issue here is not for him to write about that. The issue here is to acknowledge that it is part of a bigger picture, a bigger discourse. That this is the place,  this DailyKos that is not about him anymore, is the place to come and brainstorm, write and discuss and about those issues and because they have a CONTEXT within the larger battles.

              Y'all have no strategic nor tactical vision when it comes to the netroots. You have no battle plan and THAT is the problem. Not this bullshit about hurting some little girls' feelings.

            •  Armando (none / 0)

              I really don't mean to be a diary whore, but I asked kos to have a look at this below, and I'd like to respectfully ask that you take a gander (no pun intended) as well.
    •  I'll just add that (4.00 / 8)

      whoever it was who created the damn pie ad(s) probably just got a promotion and a corner office. Talk about advertising that makes an impression.

      And don't think for a second that Madison Avenue gives a flying fuck whether or not that impression is good or bad. I was blissfully ignorant of a Gilligan's Island reality show remake until people started to complain about boobs. I sure hope those brain cells weren't destined for something great, like ... oh ... defeating the GOP in '06 and '08.

      BUSH: Like a rock...but dumber.
      Stewart/Olberman 2008!

      by mugsimo on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 12:34:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Those publications pay content providers (none / 1)

      They are not, therefore, in danger of losing a substantial fraction of what brings in the readers by running the ads. In that sense, Markos decision to keep the TBS spot fails not as a moral choice, but as a poor business decision, made worse by the disrespectful tone with which he dismissed the complaints.

      This is a test of the Emergency Free Speech System.
      This is only a test.
      If this had been an actual emergency, I'd already be locked up.

      by ben masel on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 02:18:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Remain to be seen (none / 1)

        but you don't know the factors that make this business run.

        Like the big one that "more people" doesn't equal "more money".

        •  Fair. (4.00 / 2)

          Care to elaborate? (Not necessarily here and now, an explanation of the economics of a site on your scale would make an interesting post when you're in the mood.)

          This is a test of the Emergency Free Speech System.
          This is only a test.
          If this had been an actual emergency, I'd already be locked up.

          by ben masel on Wed Jun 08, 2005 at 02:53:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  not kos here (none / 0)

            I worked for an online service in 1992 on and we were sort of experimental and every user actually cost us money.  We used to joke getting rid of all the users would be our best move.

            of course, kos most likely is just refering to the fact that he doesn't automatically get a better ad rate when usage goes up, especially if it spikes...

            come to think of it, he's probably saying this wild fire is deluging the server farm.

            everyone, stop posting!

        •  It's Hard Work (none / 0)

          (I couldn't resist the snark)

          No, we