How the GOP Works in Florida Affects Us All

Update [2005-8-30 9:40:24 by Armando]: From the diaries by Armando.

Just in case the Democratic Orthodoxy hasn't figured it out yet, Florida is a key political battleground and one they're losing. And, as if I didn't have to live under enough shame and misery already as a resident in the state that twice put the Bothers Shrub in the Oval Office and the Governor's Mansion:

[Link]: August 29, 2005--Education Commissioner John L. Winn today appointed Cheri Yecke, Ph.D., as the new Florida K- 12 Chancellor. Yecke replaces former Chancellor James Warford, who stepped down last month. She will assume the role of Chancellor the first week in October.

Dr. Yecke is the recently dismissed Minnesotan Education Commissioner who stirred up a hornets nest of controversy with her policies and statements on science and social studies standards for K-12 curricula in that state. Prior to being named Minnesota's Education Commissioner, she was instrumental in crafting and implementing the No Child Left Behind Act. They also forgot to mention in that glowing press release that last year Cheri Yecke professionally opined:

1. Local school boards should have the latitude to introduce alternative theories, such as "Intelligent Design", and
   
2. the Santorum amendment provides legal justification for that action.

Join me below the jump ...

Why in the world would this failure of an Education Czar from Minnesota be promoted and allowed to repeat her miserable performance in Florida?

[Link]: August 29, 2005--Cheri Pierson Yecke today announced that Florida Governor Jeb Bush has invited her to play a lead role on his education team. Yecke will end her Sixth Congressional District bid to help implement Governor Bush's reform agenda.

"I am honored to have been asked by Governor Jeb Bush to be such a significant part of his education team," said Yecke. "It is therefore with deep regret that I announce that I will no longer be a candidate for Minnesota's sixth district Congressional seat."

Let's run that through the Reality Community Translator: Yecke was unpopular with Minnesotans. She succeeded in dividing and pissing off the educational/science communities in particular with her loony take on everything from religion in the classroom, to sex Ed, to science & evolutionary biology. Her fringe ideas finally elicited statewide disgust and votes to send her packing. So she decided to run for the Sixth Congressional District Seat in 2006. The prospect of winning began to look worse and worse as support for the GOP in Minnesota went south along with Bush's numbers.

Behind the scenes, devious designs were drawn up resulting in Brother Jeb handing this Neo-con minion control over one of the largest educational budgets of any state in the Union. Coincidentally, just before the '06 elections, Florida undergoes a massive review of text book standards and contracts with publishers. New education policies are rumored to be in the works from the Governor's Office; which I have to guess will gut the hell out of everything from school lunches to the K-12 tax revenue base.

And since this decision to appoint Yecke was so laudable, and she has such a solid rep among the educational and scientific communities, it was announced with no fanfare the same day Hurricane Katrina dominated national and regional news.

Here's my take on what will follow: In a few months the evolution Vs Intelligent Design/Creationism issue is going to become a big media item in a state where it has received little attention from either educators or lawmakers. Ghost written 'local' editorials will start popping up about it in Florida newspapers. Discovery Institute PR hacks will trotted out and presented as reputable scientists questioning "Darwinism".

Under that cover, textbook content covering sex education, social studies, and global warming, will be attacked and mangled by the ultra-conservative wing of the GOP into a state of unrecognizable mush. All to enlist blind support for the real agenda: Protecting corporate interests and awarding big fat state contracts to publishers (And campaign contributions checked). And the Republicans now have a sworn soldier in the highest K-12 office in the state: Tricksy Republicans!

We're going to need credentialed biologists and science educators to address the upcoming Intelligent Design Creationism threat and the reproductive/education issues threat. More importantly, we will need political strategists to keep an eye out for opportunities to capitalize on the underlying agenda of meddling in the finances and business of K-12 education in Florida. If I'm right, the end result of the GOP plan will be to to boost support for both themselves and any policy they can cook up, all on the backs of the working-class in the Sunshine State from first-grade to retired homeowner.

I can't contribute much to the broad strategic angle other than to warn those in that line of work. But if you know folks who are Biology/Science Professors in Florida and you think they might be sympathetic to the idea of preventing their field of study from being torpedoed and transformed into a political football by political shills hiding under religion and 'fairness', I'm a good contact for them. I have the personal relationships with folks across the nation who have successfully thwarted this nonsense before and a wealth of insight into creationist tactics. And remember, what the GOP does in Florida, their success or failure, affects us all.

Update: Wesley Elsberry from the National Center for Science Education is forming a Florida Citizens for Science group to organize efforts to take this on. DR Elsberry has been instrumental in defeating Intelligent Design/Creationists all over the country.

•  Are there really so many

  Conservative Christians in the Country that we have to pander to them this way?  Let them take their kids to private schools that teach this garbage posing as science.  That's the GOP way in most cases: the PRIVATE sector.  

  Meanwhile, I'd like my kids in PUBLIC schools to be taught "just the facts ma'am" if you please.

  by Steven D on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 06:21:48 AM PDT

  •  That is why they want vouchers...

    They want you to pay for teaching their zany ideas one way or another.

    by inclusiveheart on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 06:23:00 AM PDT

    •  The grand GOP plan

      They don't just want vouchers.  They want to gut and destroy the whole idea of public education.  They, of course, can't come out and say it, but they can kill the system with lot's of small injuries.  Intelligent Design here, extra unfunded mandates there, a hyped scandal over there, and pretty soon lots of "normal" people are against the school system.  

      Here in Texas, the laboratory of bad government, the GOP is working overtime to destroy the school system, all the while claiming to support it.  The papers just report the talking points.  It is all really quite surreal.......rather soviet-esqe.

      by Geonomist on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:28:05 AM PDT

      •  Yes!

        I give your comment a 4...the Republicans are out to kill public education for a couple of very specific reasons:

        • Public educators are pretty much constrained to teaching reality and facts.

        • it's fundamentally socialist or egalitarian - every kid gets a shot at the same thing - what you're really seeing here is the anti-integration backlash to Brown vs. Board of Education.  

        • objective history is not conducive to Republican election strategy or xian fundamentalism.

        • Children of the rich aren't really necessarily any brighter because Social Darwinism is really BS...they need an uneven playing field in life.

        • Republicans want to redirect all revenue streams thorugh the 'private sector' where they can skim.  

        NCLB is a poison pill designed to place unrealistic and unattainable standards on public education so that funding can ultimately be redirected to 'private' schools (corporate and fundamentalist xian welfare) that aren't held to the same standards (basically, they don't have to take students they don't want) via vouchers.  There is nothing more to it than attempting to generate 'evidence' that schools can't take the place of parents in society and fix everything.  They want to undermine, in the long term, political support for public schools in the broader society (anyone who can't afford to get out of them).

        Think of the issue of health insurance: public education is like universal coverage - doctors, insurers and corporate providers (eg, HCA) all make off with a much larger slice of the pie we pay through health taxes - let's be honest about what FICA and employer-provided health care really mean: a wage tax!  Under our system, insurers can just refuse to cover the hard cases; believe me, public education is chock full of those kinds of students.  School Boards generally get in the way of CEOs (superintendants) lining their own pockets. Sure there is corruption - Washington DC Public Schools are in a perpetual state of absolute chaos - but the scale doesn't even compare with the corporate world.  

        Look at KBR and the army: it's already painfully clear that army did a more efficient job of feeding and clothing itself than private contractors do, in addition to fighting.  But, conservatives were successful at redirecting that revenue stream into their own pockets.  An all volunteer army (ie, self-selecting and 'private') makes it easier to do that.  Why do you think we now have all the problems with fundamentalist evangelicals taking over the leadership, esp. at the military academies?  Of course, failure doesn't really mean anything to KBR, because as we've seen quite clearly, the army has no choice but to keep rewarding them contracts even if their business model is bad and fails.  

        When everyone participates, the whole system benefits because we are all involved.  Public education is no different - it's much better for a child, even (or especially) children of privilege,  to spend some time up close and personal with everyone else in our society.  Children raised in a sheltered (private school) environment have a very limited and skewed view of the world.  Republicans know this too.  

        by montpellier on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 10:33:40 AM PDT

        •  The right wing truly hates

          anything "public."  Schools, parks, space, air, water, you name it.  It stems from their neo-conservative economics, which ideologically demands that all resources be in some private hands.  A miracle is supposed to occur causing efficient production.

          One has to wonder what they dream about as an end state of their ideology.  Do they have dreams about the future?  If allowed to proceed it will be a nightmare world of isolation, poverty, and absolute domination by the few.  Eventually it will lead to mass death of humanity.  

          by Geonomist on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 02:13:53 PM PDT

      •  Don't knock the Soviet school system

        they put out lots of decent mathematicians and scientists.

        by bitterguy on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 10:51:15 AM PDT

        •  the American ones aren't

          producing competent scientists, mathematicians or engineers, that is.

          I can't figure out this angle of the Bushists.  Sure, they want uncritical masses who don't know real history and will accept that America is the Chosen Nation that will lead the World to Democracy if only we send enough of our kids off as machine gun fodder. I understand that it's in their short-term interest to gut scientific studies to keep big pharma, big energy, and big agri-business happy.  I understand that the anti-evolution and anti-birth control agendas keeps their rightwing base mollified and deluded.  I understand that scrapping the public school system feeds the Norquist ideology and besides provides more of that machine gun fodder.  But blowing off science and technology will eventually kill their nice little empire.  The Europeans, the Chinese, and the Indians aren't blowing off science and technology.  Are these guys so deluded that they really think they can control reality by the things they say?  Are they really that far out in Cloud Cuckoo Land?

          by Delia on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:20:28 PM PDT

          •  they either think

            they can loot the country before it goes under, and then buy into the game elsewhere, or they think they can just buy science.

            It goes to show that they didn't learn from Hitler's mistake -- if you lose the science, you can't win the war for very long.  They also underestimate how much this economy relies on the importation of intellect from the rest of the world; stop that brain gain, and we'll be at a major disadvantage in the long term.  They've already damn near stopped it; we're such an international pariah that no one wants to come here anymore.

            This will be impossible to fix without a clean break from the recent past.  I hope Feingold can win the 2008 elections and clean house.

            by texas dem on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 03:29:04 PM PDT

        •  I wasn't knocking the

          old Soviet schools.  I was comparing our press with the old Soviet press.  The US press pretty much shamelessly repeats any nonsense passed to them by Republican Party bosses.  

          by Geonomist on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 02:07:48 PM PDT

          •  No argument here

            I was being snarky about the schools anyway.

            by bitterguy on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 02:21:37 PM PDT

          •  They do deserve some knocking

            Remember the Lysenko Affair, in which genetics was forced to conform to dialectical materialism.

            http://www.comms.dcu.ie/sheehanh/lysenko.htm

            Nature just refuses to give command performances, be they ordered by Stalinist communists or Bushist capitalists.

            by Delia on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 04:57:24 PM PDT

    •  I think the religious adherents want

      the vouchers for obvious reasons: to have more money supporting the teaching of their beliefs.

      On the other hand, I think the voucher idea, as envisioned by the Bush junta, is another way for the government to handle large sums of our tax dollars without being scrutinized closely. The money is essentially paying off leaders to express support publicly for Bush policies and deliver votes in the future to ensure the permanent Republican majority. This is just institutionalized machine politics that is national instead of local.

      Since much of the nation is in awe of authoritarian institutions, there will be no accountability for the voucher money. If some group demands accountability they will be called "anti-Christian."

      by lecsmith on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:31:35 AM PDT

  •  You don't get it!

    They don't want to just teach faith to their children. They want to indoctrinate all of us.  There is no tolerance in these people for any differences!

    by bjedward on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 06:33:27 AM PDT

    •  Well I am not so sure - we aren't pure enough for

      them.  I think they have other plans for the likes of us.  I've heard too many of them like Pat Robertson for instance suggest that people they disagree with would be better off dead or in jail.

      by inclusiveheart on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:35:27 AM PDT

      •  Safety nets (gone)

        I think you're right. People who fall down, in their "society", deserve to be trampled to death.
        Some of the poor, who give themselves over to the church, may survive but whoever decides to remain outside the church will get no help.

        by mike101 on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 08:27:37 AM PDT

    •  You're right

      They are not satisfied with just winning the argument- they insist that everyone to agree with them.

      Dissent is not allowed in their world-view.

      by zzyzx on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:38:21 AM PDT

      •  They know they cannot win the argument

        And when you can't win the argument, the only way to win is to control the criteria by which winning is decided.  We will be seeing a lot of last-ditch efforts to implement long-term policies as Bush's numbers continue their journey toward the bottom of the septic tank.  They will keep lashing out in desperation.  Unfortunately, they have the trifecta and can do serious permanent damage to everything I love about this country.

        We must fight them on every front --<snark> unless they actually come up with a sensible policy for something </snark>.

        by ThomasAllen on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 08:49:12 AM PDT

    •  It's depressing, but...

      As much as being single sucks, Right now I'm glad of it, and especially glad I have no children.  I think I would be going insane right now if I had to face a spouse, let alone a child, knowing what gauntlet we'd be running.

      I'd do it... but I can't say I wouldn't be tempted to do it in Canada.

      All of you families out there that haven't given in to this madness... you have my undying admiration and support in this fight.

      StealthBadger.net

      by Stealthbadger on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 09:21:44 AM PDT

  •  Not so many

    Not so many at all. But the tiny minority have dedicated themselves to seizing the reigns of local control, which are disregarded by many as too small potatoes to care about.

    Quick, who's your local ombudsman? See what I mean.

    Essentially what they are doing is stocking the hen house with foxes. Or to put it more bluntly, they are robbing taxpayers by handing the proceeds out to their friends, without any fear of being held accountable. When people complain, they are assailed as "unpatriotic" and "dangerous," when people come forward calmly and solemnly as experts, they are branded as "elitist" or worse.

    By the time parents who are affected by such policies figure out what the fuck just happened to their kid's education, the perpetrators will be long gone, presumably starting up some off-shore entity in order to shield their ill-gotten monies from federal taxation. Real cute.

    by mrblifil on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:37:23 AM PDT

•  The National Science Foundation

  and others need to create a media war rooms soon.  These attacks are only going to multiply.  Philanthropists with traditional allegiances to science like Bill Gates Sr. should be contacted also.  

  The scientific community to this point has declined to debate - like in KS - I know that seemed to make sense, but they assume that Americans understand science and it value well enough to walk away from these nut cases - I think that is too great an assumption.

  by inclusiveheart on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 06:22:06 AM PDT

  •  One problem with that...

    The NSF is an arm of the U.S. government.  So when it comes right down to it, these people are in charge of the NSF, too.  (Not that there aren't still many good career scientists at the NSF that would fight this sort of thing tooth and nail).  But depending on a government entity to take the lead opposing this stuff, given the current administration, is probably not the best idea.

    by elakazal on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:24:18 AM PDT

    •  They have been fighting a lot of this stuff

      I agree and paused before I wrote it, but there are as you say a lot of very responsible careerists at the agency.  

      I also failed to mention that the Dems themselves should be spending some money and time on response to this nonsense.

      What the GOP does is incorporate their various foundations' talking heads into these debates and gets them bookings.  It doesn't seem like we do that much.  I dunno.  There seems to be a lack of will to fight the good fight.  Maybe it is a lack of understanding that it must be fought.  I dunno.

      by inclusiveheart on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:32:07 AM PDT

  •  FYI

    Update: Wesley Elsberry from the National Center for Science Education is forming a Florida Citizens for Science group to organize efforts to take this on. DR Elsberry has been instrumental in defeating Intelligent Design/Creationists all over the country.

    by DarkSyde on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:29:57 AM PDT

  •  Don't hold your breath

    How do you think the situation has become so bad. National Science Foundation is so busy congratulating themselves for dedicating their lives to science, they have no time to actually find ways to promote science to the hoi polloi, for whom, I imagine, they secretly feel disdain.

    by mrblifil on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:39:46 AM PDT

    •  Got it

      I forget that Bush has destroyed everything good in our government.  Well almost everything. He is working on the rest... like the National Parks and others.  And it is "hard work"...

      by inclusiveheart on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:43:19 AM PDT

    •  disdain for hoi polloi?

      I think the scorn for the NSF is misplaced.  The NSF promotes a wide variety of programs aimed at bringing science to average Americans, especially our kids.  Could the agency do more?  Sure.  If it had the money, which under this administration, it does not.  (Do you know that in many divisions of the NSF, only about 20 percent of basic research grant requests are funded?  Many proposals judged highly qualified by peer reviewers still don't make the cut, simply due to scarce funding.) Speaking as the wife of an NSF employee, I know that the scientists who work for the NSF are dedicated to the pursuit of scientific knowledge and are excited for any and all opportunities to bring it to greater light.  There is no disdain -- except maybe for anti-science Republicans and their creationist/ID compatriots.  Please don't paint with a broad brush.

      by worldwideellen on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 09:09:24 AM PDT

      •  They are fiddling while Rome burns

        They have very few chances left to become relevant to the national debate, funding or no funding. Everybody likes to operate in their own self-anointed comfort zone, it's human nature. But now scientists in this country need to become ACTIVE and prevent us from having a silent version of the Cultural Revolution visited upon us.

        I don't have scorn, merely impatience.

        by mrblifil on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 09:27:05 AM PDT

  •  They

    have. See my comment above on the NSCE and Wesley Elsberry.

    by DarkSyde on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:44:22 AM PDT

•  Sue Jeb Bush

  In Connecticut there was a landmark case Sheff vs. O'Neill where a student sued the state for violating it's own constitutional language on education.

  The second any ID nonsense is enacted (and it's coming based on this appointment) students from Florida could enter into a class action suit against the State of Florida for violating it's own consitutional guarantees for education. What if a child wants to grow up to be a virulogist specializing in evolutionary medicine? Florida is offering an "education" that will leave him/her completely ill prepared for any future involving medicine or science.

  Florida schools SUCK as a whole. We should get the educators Minnesota embraces, not rejects.

  by joejoejoe on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 06:39:02 AM PDT

  •  Love that signature line

    Hadn't heard it before but it's awesome!

    by jasimon on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 06:44:08 AM PDT

  •  I love this idea

    I am in the science education field, and it has been pretty well established that deeply-held misconceptions are the hardest to eradicate. Thus, this type of "education" would severely limit Florida students' educational and career options.

    If they want to sue, I have a good bibliography of scientific studies (ha!) on this issue (misconceptions).

    by Mozh on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:35:32 AM PDT

•  Florida - Red and Blue

  As a college instructor here in Florida, I can tell you that Florida students do not come to college with even the basics of science knowledge. This is caused by a veriety of issues including: - anti-intellectualism - short school day/year - underfunded schools - equipment, books - underqualified science teachers That said, the Repubs might run into trouble with this one. Florida, while red, can have a blue underbelly. Examples include the rise in minimum wage ammendment that passed last year. Too, Florida has some top universities, including UF, FSU, UMiami, New College of Florida (I'm an alumn!), and Rollins College (also am alumn!). This has the potential to turn ugly.

  by floridaprof on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 06:44:06 AM PDT

  •  Son in First Grade

    As a grad student in 1995 I was appalled that my third year undergrads had never been exposed to semilog graph paper.

    As the mother of a first grader, I now understand why.  They haven't learned any science at all yet.  So far, they spend all morning (7:50-~12 not including lunch) doing "language arts" and afternoon (1-1:40) doing math.  They get one special area a day (art twice, music twice, PE once every week) and go to the library on Fridays.  My son is becoming proficient at "coding" words.  This means he marks the short and long vowels, draws a line through any voiced "s", and puts a box around s's that are unvoiced and make the word plural.

    A coworker mentioned that while her third grade daughter had written out all the numbers from 1 to something ridiculous (100?  1000?  10000?) by ones, twos, threes, fives, tens, twenty-fives (as required to move on to fourth grade), she didn't know the order of the planets in the solar system.

    We're going to start saving to send our son to a private boarding school in the northeast for high school.  At least that way he'll have a chance...

    by RobotsRUs on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 10:06:48 AM PDT

    •  Should have mentioned...

      I was a grad student at the University of Florida in Electrical Engineering in 1995...

      by RobotsRUs on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 10:07:39 AM PDT

•  California

  Some nutcase in california is sueing the U-CAL system because U-CAL requires basic knowledge of biology as a condition for entry. Basic biology knowledge, of course, includes human origins. They try to have it both ways: They call "intelligent design" science; then they sue based on reigious discrimination when they are expected to have learned about Darwin in high school --something every high school on the planet SHOULD have prominently in the cuuriculum.

  by TBarta on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 06:48:50 AM PDT

•  Minnesotan here

  And I'm here to tell you, it's AMAZING Cheri Pierson Yecke is still getting a job in education anywhere.  

  Even in this state's most wingnut-y moment in time, a few years ago -- when the GOP elected both Norm Coleman and the very right-wing governor, Tim Pawlenty -- Pierson Yecke didn't get much traction.  She's a complete extremist, and eventually the common sense of Minnesotans saw this and basically ran her out of town on a rail.

  By the way, that GOP hold on Minnesota is OVER.  Democrats gained significantly in the statehouse last November, and Bush's ratings are in the toilet here (I mean, even more than elsewhere!).  And Norm "George Galloway's Punching Bag" Coleman is seeing his numbers go ever lower, lower, lower...

  by chumley on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 06:50:34 AM PDT

  •  unbefrigginlievable

    We've got some pretty juicy wingnuts here in MN (Phil Krinkie  and Katherine Kersten come to mind) but Yecke is right up there with 'em. I just remember a couple of her Star Tribune columns. One was just traditional idiotic wingnuttery about how the Founders wanted religion in public schools. The other was perhaps the worst op/ed piece I have ever read; she claimed that Linda Tripp was ridiculed for her looks because Tripp was smart and conservative.

    Ick.

    by cubicalization on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:06:54 AM PDT

    •  just to pile on...

      I forgot that Pierson Yecke briefly had an op-ed bully pulpit, too.   Thanks for reminding me.

      Yes, as I recall her writing was even WORSE than the usual wingnut fare, which is saying something.  Sub-literate, paranoid, and absolutely without merit in terms of argument or intelligence.  

      Yet this was Pawlenty's choice for EDUCATION commissioner.  It had all the integrity of choosing John Bolton as U.N. ambassador.

      by chumley on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:14:06 AM PDT

    •  Parts of MN is Wingnut Central

      But you're right that too is dying a slow death. In fact a moderate republican asked State Rep. Krinkie (who's running for Congress in MN-6th) if he was going to screw up Congress the way he screwed up the Minnesota legislature.

      Spotty (no relation to me) does a great job tracking the Minnesota Wing Nuttery on a pretty regular basis see

      The Cucking Stool

      and pointing out their utter disconnection from reality.

      Spot's been on a tear lately calling out Katherine Kersten's Op-ed pieces for the illogical pabulum they are.

      by northcountry on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:39:30 AM PDT

      •  Try this link here, instead

        The Cucking Stool

        by northcountry on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:41:48 AM PDT

        •  Let me pile on Yecke.....

          MN has always been at or near the top in terms of High School Graduation rates. So Yecke comes in with an extreme right wing agenda....even calling the U of MN Education department's reknowned work on small group learning theory a "socialist" agenda.

          She was kind to the charter schools in our state....this fit into the overall plan of systematically dismantaling public education. Florida....fight this woman.

          by rust belt refugee on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:55:12 AM PDT

          •  yup, she was a GOP neo-Stalinst

            She ignored the actual successes of public school system, and declared it a disaster despite not being able to back it up with any relevant stats.  

            Her ideas were PURE wingnut politics, PURE partisan filth, supported by nothing by Limbaugh-like assertions.  

            Note to Floridians:  don't let this shameless hack anywhere near your school system.  You'll be VERY sorry.

            by chumley on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 08:11:21 AM PDT

          •  Isn't it interesting that the comparisons

            the MN Wing Nuts always use are to states like Alabama, Mississippi, and Georgia, states that have always scored and ranked low on things like literacy rates, % graduating high school, college test scores and other general measures of educational competence.

            Hmmm........

            by northcountry on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 09:31:38 AM PDT

        •  The Cucking Stool

          Thanks for the link!   I was sadly ignorant about this cool site, even though it's a local blog.   Good writing, especially for one of our canine friends.

          by chumley on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 09:18:37 AM PDT

      •  Millstone

        'Member that guy who sent the letter to the science standards committee members referring to the biblical verse about hanging a millstone around the necks of people who would diminish someone's faith and throwing them into a river?  It's a pretty famous verse.  How evolution diminishes faith ... a dodgy proposition, but the guy was a YEC.

        Anyway, when some of the committee members sent the letter to the press he was like, "I really don't understand why anyone would find that letter to be threatening".  

        by sberel on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 09:24:40 AM PDT

    •  Yecke and Middle Schools

      Yecke was run out of town in Minnesota and was STILL able to land a lead job in Florida--they get what they deserve. I can't wait to see the test questions for Intelligent Design. Will students be able to use their Bible as a study guide for the open book test?

      Recall that Yecke was no big fan of middle schools and wrote: " Traditional American values are given little emphasis in many of today's middle schools, a trend that has accelerated over time. . . . American values such as rewarding individual effort, honoring individual achievement, and promoting healthy competition have given way to a capricious smorgasbord of liberal ideas that undermine these traditional values in many schools."

      This, as you may imagine, angered a large portion of middle school teachers.

      by Above the Clouds on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 10:29:49 AM PDT

  •  here as well

    I remember it well.  And don't forget Pawlenty.  His notion of the state shutdown didn't get quite the traction he hoped.

    Maybe some people aren't as stupid as these characters hope.

    Let's hope the universities stand fast and don't relax their education requirements, or America will truly sink to the level of a third world country.

    Then again, I've worked with people from all over, and most of those from overseas I've known were already far more educated - and far more well-informed - than most Americans in similar settings.

    Oh well, maybe we are truly done for...
    

    by MN camera on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:17:22 AM PDT

  •  Wisconsinite

    and former Minnesotan. My wife's an education Ph.D. and we watched with absolute horror from this side of the border as Pawlenty and Yecke tried to roll back years of research driven educational reform in favor of baseless ideological drivel. Yecke's a flaming loon, and anyone who has to live with her screwing over their educational system has my deepest sympathies.

    by KMc on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:20:09 AM PDT

•  The Florida Democratic Party

  is limp and rotting, and in serious need of a kick in the ass.

  Certain counties do fairly well, but state-wide it is not a good situation.

  by Sam Loomis on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 06:51:41 AM PDT

  •  Huh?

    Florida has a Democratic Party?

    by Dragonchild on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:10:56 AM PDT

    •  "Florida has a Democratic Party?"

      Yes, it's one guy living in a shack in the Everglades, getting wasted on tequila all day.

      by chumley on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:15:20 AM PDT

      •  My

        experience with the Dems in Florida is a mix between coaxing them to come out of their shells like a frightened turtle and having a boil lanced off my ass.

        by DarkSyde on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:21:23 AM PDT

•  you're forgetting one thing

  No biology teacher can be compelled to teach this ID nonsense.  The teachers in Dover refuse to teach it.  This is why unions are important.  Nothing will happen to the teachers.  You can't hire nobodies off the street to teach BIo.  It doesn't work like that.

  by kennyc on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:02:26 AM PDT

  •  Um, yes you can

    And they do.

    My ex got a stint as a teacher before she even enrolled in college to get her certification.  She was the only one they interviewed with prior teaching experience.

    And this was a well-to-do part of Michigan.

    by Dragonchild on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:12:35 AM PDT

    •  what did he teach?

      and what state hires people with out a college degree?

      I suspect you are making up stuff to try to discredit my argument but you have failed miserably

      by kennyc on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:32:35 AM PDT

      •  O ye of little faith

        SHE was teaching Japanese, and went back to school for a SECOND degree in education -- arguably the fastest way to get certification.

        by Dragonchild on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 03:16:48 PM PDT

  •  My ex sister-in-law had a degree in nursing

    and is a fruitcake fundi. Yet, she easily obtained a job as a teacher with no certification.  So, it isn't an exaggeration. But, it wasn't in a large city either, she was located in a rural area.

    Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

    by bronte17 on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 09:58:39 AM PDT

•  Spot on Mr. Frank, err, Darkside

  Taken straight out of a page from T. Frank's book.

  And you couldn't be more correct, sir.  This was precisely what had taken place my state of Kansas first in 1999, and now in 2005.  Discovery Institute are slippery little devils, but I think what pisses me off more than this group are the inane scientists who refuse to take on this controversy, believing that it is a complete waste of their time.

  At first I was in 100% agreement with scientists believing that ignoring these ID twits was valid.  The problem is the politics behind this all - the GOP-funded party of Dobson, has grown in exponential strength and now control so much of the domestic agenda.  Politics may be a strange hat for many scientists to put on their heads, but I firmly believe they are going to have to have a coordinated effort to publicly educate the masses on their life's work.  

  They are already seeing the effects in regards to funding.  For example, Illinois is luring scientists in the Missouri Stowers Institute on Biological Research as a consequence of the stem cell debate:

  http://kansascity.bizjournals.com/kansascity/stories/2005/08/29/daily7.html

  Or how about in California, where Christian schools have suid the the state because of their standards not being critical of evolution?:

  http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2005/08/29/ucsuit

  I don't know what could be more of a wake-up call to researchers.  Hopefully this may be enough for them to get off their asses and throw their hat in the political ring.

  by MisterOpus1 on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:06:48 AM PDT

•  the inquistion

  this just gives me a such a dark ages vibe, it's like they "want" everyone to be dumb. I wonder if I would make a good pesant?

  "witty liberal comment"

  by celt on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:06:51 AM PDT

  •  Remember your three truths:

    War is Peace.
    Freedom is Slavery.
    Ignorance is Strength.

    The scary part is, this ISN'T some fiction novel. They actually (if subconsiously) support these ideals! It's enough to make a 17 year old cry...

    For those who don't know what I'm talking about (and really, you should), please read 1984 by George Orwell. You'll see him cited here and there in taglines.

    by DelusionalLiberal on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 11:03:01 PM PDT

•  DarkSyde, you are on fire

  First, the best hurricane coverage I found anywhere, and now this. Great job.

  by who threw da cat on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:07:38 AM PDT

•  my friend's husband

  is a high school science teacher in the Florida Panhandle, and they're both liberals (rare here). I'll e-mail her this diary.

  by chantedor on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:07:44 AM PDT

•  Florida newspapers ...

  I have an endless supply of bad ideas, and this may be merely the most recent. Let me know. But if we're convinced we're gonna see a storm of letters to the editor, and similar, why not strike first?

  I'm sure there are better lists, but this one caught my eye. I think the biology/science professors can provide the facts, and it's up to wild-eyed activists to provide the politics.

  What say you to letters like the follow:

  Dear Editor:

  So-called 'Intelligent Design' is just the most recent attempt to impose a New Age agenda on our public schools. Citing phony science, these 'Intelligent Design'ers teach our children that there is -some- Supreme Being ... but not the God of the Holy Bible.
       They exploit people of faith, pushing a fringe New Age belief in a 'universal designer', even claiming that aliens or some divine--or even demonic--being other than God created all the wonders of life.
       I urge all citizens of Florida who don't want their children to learn New Ageism and demonism in public schools to oppose these pushers of so-called 'Intelligent Design.'

  by GussieFN on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:08:41 AM PDT

  •  hey, that's good

    Though, I worship at the concave altar of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.  I don't want to see Pastafarianism undermined by this uber-all-powerful supreme being thing from the stadium of worship.  All religious people must band together and fight the exploitation of our children by these indecisive zealots (the most dangerous kind).  

    by beancrush on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:52:58 AM PDT

    •  A fellow Believer!

      This makes little sense unless you're a fan of the strip.

      by DelusionalLiberal on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 11:06:41 PM PDT

  •  yankees are wusses

    unless you're a snake handler and speak in tongues, you're considered 'new age' down here. pass me those coral snakes, and throw in a pygmy rattler while you're at it.

    by campskunk on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 08:22:04 AM PDT

•  Wake UP Democrats!

    This is how they operate. Great analysis from the DarkSyde!

  Go on the internet and see how many conservative activist sites there are that are anti-gay, pro-hate and vote Republican. They see sponge bob square pants and scream about it, until you feel deaf.

  I say attach these groups to Pat Robertson in a big way. Turn Pat Robertson into the poster boy for the Republican party.

    No they are not a magority, but they want to be. They are working with black, churches, schools, and of course they get money from the Faith Based Initiatives.

  These people scare me.

  I want to see dems say, these are intolerant groups that promote hate.

  by missliberties on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:09:59 AM PDT

  •  They are like the KKK without sheets!

    by missliberties on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:11:00 AM PDT

•  Outrageous

  The woman does not belong in education, anywhere.  She's a shill for the Eagle Forum.

  Oh yeah, remember when her dept. put out two sets of science standards, one (from the committee) and the second (from thin air, that no one knew anything about) that soft-pedaled the age of the earth?

  Floridians, this is an opportunity.  Remember when the ed commissioner in Georgia tried omit evolution from the science standards?  The fact is that most Republicans don't like to be associated with these anti-evolutionists.  I say hang her around their collective necks.

  Eh, yeah.  And as a Texan, I am a bit happy to have missed this particular bullet.  We have enough problems with the Eagle Forum people already in place.

  by sberel on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:15:10 AM PDT

•  I get

  so angry about this crap.  I have  7 and 4 yo kids.  If my SD brought this crap in I'd scream.  I don't send my kids to school to learn somebody else's religion.  20 no, 10 wait 5 years from now when these kids hit college and can't compete what will be the excuse then?  This isn't about who's right and who's wrong in the origin theory.  This gives parents and kids an excuse not to think critically about anything.  ID is nothing more than the "because God said so" excuse.  Next it will be attacks on Math and Literature until these schools resemble christian madras.  I said it after the election, I'll say it again if we don't wake up soon we are in real danger of becoming  a third world country with rabid dog leadership and a huge nuclear arsenal.

  by demkat620 on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:20:02 AM PDT

•  OMG!!! You guys are soooooo

  funny, quit! My sides are hurting!

  Oh well, a question.

  Why all the outrage over Cheri Yecke?

  The No Child Left Behind Act received scant mention in the diary.

  What about Jeb and George's other brother? The one making millions off the No Child Left Behind Act in Florida?

  What's his name? Billy? And now you have one of the people instrumental in crafting and implementing the No Child Left Behind Act PLUS the Bush making all the money!!!

  You lucky guys.......

  by 0hio on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:32:10 AM PDT

•  ID in public school science classes

  I hate the thought of ID being taught in public school science classes.  I do not accept that it is science, and I fully believe its inclusion will serve to muddle students regarding what constitutes real science.  Having said that, however, I have been persuaded by an acquaintance--a reputable, published scientist who accepts evolutionary science and believes empiricism and naturalistic methodology are the best ways to generate fruitful results in scientific inquiries--that there is some merit to the argument that we live in a pluralistic society and thus parents have the right to have their beliefs taught to their kids, especially if their taxes contribute to funding education.  In other words, public school science education ought to reflect the sub-cultural diversity that exists in this country, including but not limited to ID.   It may be tricky to implement, but I could live with this sort of compromise.  Proponents of ID, however, are deliberately misleading the public debate by insisting in their public statements that they merely want to 'teach both sides of the controversy so students can decide for themselves.'  It must be understood that the Discovery Institute's Wedge Strategy is a sweeping religious/political manifesto that DOES NOT allow for ANY other perspective other than ID.  The intent is to overthrow naturalistic science and to replace it with the ID paradigm.  There is no intent on the part of the Discovery Institute to tolerate and respect subcultural diversity.  ID proponents must be forced to address their misleading public statements about merely 'wanting to teach both sides of the controversy so that students can decide for themselves' relative to the content of the Wedge Strategy.  I'm shocked that so many who oppose ID haven't called ID proponents to task on their hugely misleading public remarks!!  Week after week newspapers and broadcast media repeat their misleading characterization--and nobody confronts them with the fact that those remarks are entirely inconsistent with the Wedge Strategy goals!!!!

  by boxtop on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:37:29 AM PDT

  •  Teaching beliefs

    You write, "Parents have the right to have their beliefs taught to their kids, especially if their taxes contribute to funding education." But I don't agree at all - school is for facts, beliefs are for places of worship.  I don't think anyone has the right to have their "beliefs" taught, especially when they are out of the mainstream of scientific thought.  
    What's more, the tax argument doesn't make sense to me.  I don't get to decide how my taxes are used (for example,they're going to support a war I am intensely opposed to) so why should anyone else?  

    by peregrina on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 08:39:51 AM PDT

  •  Teach ID if you must...

    but not in science class!
    Philosophy, comparative religion, sociology, somewhere... but NOT in science classes.
    It's not science (there are many, many references that go into detail explaining why it is not science.)

    by mike101 on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 09:03:35 AM PDT

•  I have no fear . . .

  for in The Flying Spaghetti Monster's (FSM's)waiting room, further attacks on a shitty public school system are yielding returns on the completely diminished end of the spectrum.  Finally, FSM will get some equal time.

  by beancrush on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:44:03 AM PDT

  •  Hey no fair

    You got peanut butter on my chocolate (see below).

    Joke about the FSM all you want, you know it's out there watching your every move.

    by mrblifil on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:48:04 AM PDT

•  You got it in one

  I blogged about the hidden kabuki of all this.  Essentially, Yecke's either realized herself that she's not wanted by the state or local GOP, or the local Republicans pulled some strings with Jeb to buy her off so she'd go away.

  by Phoenix Woman on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:45:29 AM PDT

•  But where does she stand

  in regards to Flying Spaghetti Monsterism?

  

  I think her constituents have a right to know.

  by mrblifil on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:46:04 AM PDT

  •  Is that what I think it is?

    Do you actually have this document in your possession or is this another one of those hoaxes?  Do you realize what you're sitting on?  Please do not make any rash decisions before the proper authorities have a chance to authenticate.  You should be getting a knock on your door in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1 . . .

    by beancrush on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 08:01:20 AM PDT

•  If this helps

  I work at a major university. I am a postdoc myself, right now working in biology (and more general science) education. I have a bibliography of scientific studies on the effect of misconceptions on student learning. Basically, it's very hard to eradicate deeply held misconceptions. And of course, I see it myself every semester.

  This is the thing that pisses me off most about this ID crap-- these people have no scrupples about limiting their and other people's kids' potential in education and career choice.

  If you would like my bibliography, please email me at matb37 at gmail.

  I will also let my college professor friend in Florida know. She is a prof of math, but her field is bio computing.

  by Mozh on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:47:22 AM PDT

  •  No scruples

    Limiting their and other people's kids potential is where the money's at, baby!!!

    by mrblifil on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:49:13 AM PDT

    •  Source of money? n/t

      by mike101 on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 09:18:04 AM PDT

      •  Public School Funds

        It's a treasure trove, a never ending supply. Tax money for schools is like a goose that lays a big fat golden goose egg every year.

        by mrblifil on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 09:23:43 AM PDT

•  Another reason why local is important

  Beginning now and especially in 2006, progressive liberal Democrats should pursue a No Office Left Behind policy.  Local school boards.  Local boards of elections. State legislatures.  Secretaries of State.  Attorney Generals.  Secretaries of Education. Elected judges at all levels.

  We must organize locally so that Republicans seeking these offices do not slip under the radar.

  Once again, from now out thinking must be 50 states, 210 television markets, 435 Congressional districts, 3081 counties, 192,480 precincts.

  by TarheelDem on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:49:41 AM PDT

•  Minnesota's take

  Here's a link to the Star Tribune story on her departure from Minnesota, and how it'll affect the 6th District House race:

  http://www.startribune.com/stories/587/5585787.html

  Mainly that Michele Bachmann has a better chance of capturing the GOP nomination.  She of anti-same-sex-marriage-amendment fame in Minnesota.

  by alphaaqua on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:50:49 AM PDT

•  DarkSyde, you may have an interest

  in this URL:

  http://www.house.gov/budget_democrats/analyses/06pres_eliminations_reductions.pdf

  copy/paste> President Bush has finally made public the lengthy list of discretionary programs that his fiscal year 2006 budget will eliminate outright or reduce in funding. On the list are 99 discretionary programs – currently funded at $8.8 billion – that he will eliminate, and another 55 programs that he will cut next year by a total of $6.5 billion.

  Almost half of the eliminated programs are in the Department of Education, which loses 48 programs that receive $4.3 billion this year; these eliminated programs comprise 7.5 percent of
  all current education funding. The eliminations include wiping out $1.3 billion for all vocational
  education programs, $522 million for all education technology programs, and the $437 million state grant program for safe and drug-free schools and communities. <end copy/paste

  by 0hio on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:51:11 AM PDT

  •  god, that's ugly...

    yeah, jr knows, education is optional.

    i'm suddenly picturing this again, back when he used to just kinda wave his hand and say with that insisting tone, 'the eCONomy is STRONG.'

    like just fuckin' waving his hand makes it so...

    i didn't know all those 'drug-free zone' signs (another form of hand-waving) and toma's appearance costs added up to 400mil.

    by n step on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 08:02:51 AM PDT

•  I am so very sorry Florida

  We here in Minnesota thought we had finally gotten rid of her for good.  I did not know anyone here who had a good thing to say about her ideas on education (except for Pawlenty and Coleman of course), but for her to end up in the cauldron of all the nasty ideas the Bushboys come up with is just terrible.

  My true worry right now is that even if we do well in 2006, and even if we win back the White House in 2008 (a Katrina size "IF" goes with that idea) all the pain America will go through to get back to the right track will end up at the dems door.  We will have to be hitting on all cylanders on explaining to keep the focus on the pain that BUSH has caused.

  Anyway, their other plan is working well.  They are working toward complete control of the courts and local governments by way of Sec. of States, election reform etc.  So even with a dem federal government in place, all sorts of dem leaning laws will only be annulled, rejected, and decreed as unconstitutional by the repub courts.

  And this example is just another where the mechanical workings of gov't are being filled by republicans totally loyal.

  by GrandmaJ on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:56:25 AM PDT

•  DarkSyde, a question

  Since you live in Florida maybe you can answer this: how many state Democrats have stood up and denounced this?  Are they just as whimpy as the national Democrats?

  You can't vote for an alternative to the Republicans if there is no alternative to the Republicans.

  by numediaman on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:59:51 AM PDT

  •  I

    dunno know really. I haven't heard any that stood up for much of anything in Fla. ID/C hasn't been a big issue here (Present/future circumstances excluded). I was never a big dem until Bush screwed things up so much anyway.
    But my guess would be that they're not exactly "brave" about anything.

    by DarkSyde on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 08:06:14 AM PDT

•  Third World Educational Policies

  Fear and superstition as science. Once the decision is made to teach myth (Creationism) and pseudo-science (intelligent design) as if they were alternate scientific theories the damage is done. Republicans are leading this war on science because it gets them votes. The fact that it will impoverish the country in a generation or two, doesn't bother them in the least.
  
  I had a post up yesterday about the University of California being sued by a Christian school because it would not give credit for science classes that used texts supplied by the Bob Jones University Press.
  
  

  by shadowgov on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 08:08:40 AM PDT

•  someone to contact

  Make sure that you, or whomever in FLA is preparing for this appointment and the issues it might bring to the fore, is in touch with Professor Ken Miller at Brown University. He's one of the leading defenders of evolution, and while I never took one of his biology classes (for that matter, I only took one "hard science" class ever, thank you New Currriculum!), I've heard him speak and he's fantastic. He got national attention for his rather strong testimony against the evolution "stickers" in Georgia and another case in Kansas, and he's actually traveled around the nation debating critics of evolution/proponents of Creationism and "INtelligent Design." Look him up in the directory on brown.edu-- I'm sure he'd be interested in this if he's not on top of the ball already.

  by sip1983 on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 08:09:10 AM PDT

•  Linda Tripp article and other writings here

  http://www.amexp.org/

  by Susan S on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 08:11:14 AM PDT

•  She never got the job!

  You have to remember, she never got the job!  Here in Minnesota, she was craven nutjob governor Pawlenty's choice for Secretary of the Dept. of Children, Families, and Learning.  She was not approved by the Minnesota Senate.  She never got the job.

  It is rare for appointees to be turned down here.

  She was really bad.  Her appointment was the beginning of Pawlenty showing his true colors.  Unless the Minnesota Dems put forth a really weak candidate, Pawlenty will not get another term.

  Yecke is BAD NEWS.  I'm very glad she's out of the MN 6th District race.

  Don't be fooled.  Minnesota is NOT a Republican state.  The MN DFL party has just been putting forward weak candidates.  The party hasn't realized that the election of Ventura was a statement to the parties that we want vital candidates.  I just asked a fellow Dem who ran for governor for the DFL last time.  Neither of us could think of who it was.  It took us ten minutes to remember that it was former state Senate Majority Leader Roger Moe.

  Former DFLer Tim Penny (whom I admire greatly) ran as Independence Party candidate.

  Pawlenty got elected in part because Tim Penny was a fiscally conservative policy liberal who took votes from Moe, but mainly because the DFL chose Moe because it was "his turn."  We keep putting forward stodgy unpopular policy wonks because they have "paid their dues" to the party.

  Moe had the charisma of a tree with Dutch Elm Disease.

  This is still a progressive state (with the trace of midwestern reserve).  But you have to run candidates that don't induce narcolepsy.

  Anyways, (being Minnesotan), I tend to see this story not as Florida getting a scary education secretary, but as the national Repugs starting the annointment process for a MN 6th district US Congressional Rep.  For whom are they clearing the field?  Who's the annointed scary Rovite they want?

  The MN 6th is SUV, suburban soccer-mom country.  It tends to vote Republican.  But the last election was close.  Very close.  And it followed the nastiest campaign by incumbent Mark Kennedy (R) against Patty Wetterling (DFL).

  Mark Kennedy is now running for the Senate seat beaing vacated by Mark Dayton (DFL).

  The MN DFL party has got to put forth exciting, articulate candidates for the MN 6th and for the Senate.  Minnesota needs to be reclaimed as "solid blue," because at its core, it is.  People bought the snake oil of security last time, but the field is ripe for truth-telling Democrats here.
  

  by evilpenguin on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 08:14:26 AM PDT

  •  Maybe Michelle Bachmann

    Maybe the GOP is clearing the [6th dist congressional] field for State Senator Michelle Bachmann.  She may be enough of a Right-Wing, Rapture "Christian" for them.

    by colinm on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 08:23:21 AM PDT

    •  I hope not.

      It could happen, but I don't see Bachmann getting the nomination or winning the race. The past and current crop of Representatives from Minnesota's conservative districts aren't raving fundamentalists. Her election would be an upset win. Kennedy, Kline and Gutknecht are definitely conservative but they aren't religious nutjobs.

      There are plenty of fundies in the State Legislature (remember Arlon Lindner), but they never seem to go any farther than that. So far.  

      by Joe Bob on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 10:47:04 AM PDT

•  Proof

  The proof I have that Intelligent Design is Bogus is this whole discussion we are having.  There is nothing intelligent about it on either side.

  The religious right wails that somehow having their children taught evolution in school undercuts their religious freedom.  They think that the right to religious freedom means that they are guaranteed to never have to deal with or pay for things in which they do not believe.

  Then the evolutionist (for lack of a better word) use the same argument; teaching intelligent design will undercut the learning of evolution.

  There are certain facts that make the argument from both side hollow.  

  1. At present, our children are not sent away to re-education camps (Much to the disappointment of Falwell, Dobson, Perkins and Robertson).  They come home where parents should be working with them on their homework.  

  The home is still where children get 80% of what they believe and how they think. If a child is failed, Christian or otherwise, it is in the home.

  Children must be taught to deal and compete with differing ideas.  We are in a Global Economy.  A child today will have to interact with a larger array of ideas than ever in our history.  

  The Christians who teaches everything to fit their religious beliefs are crippling their children.  If we as a country go that path we are dooming that generation to a century slaughter and mayhem as we war for theology, rather than accepting diversity and put religion where it belongs, in our hearts and Churches.

  2.  Science is a religion as well.  It is a faith that is just more documental by quasi-empirical data than the faith we call religion.  So evolution is a theory.  It is not fact.  Teaching other theories - as long as they are not taught as fact - strengthens the development of the thought process rather than harms it.  

  It is after all not facts that we should be teaching in our schools but how to determine what a fact is.

  Education must be about how to think, not what to think.  Teaching what to think is propaganda, no matter who teaches it.

  3. Public education is the thing that made America the great country that it is.  Because of Public Education, run at local levels, we had relatively uniform curriculum.  Not uniform enough to be doctrinaire but uniform enough to keep us from dividing and killing each other on the streets.  That is except for one area - race.  We fought a bloody Civil War (with out outside intervention) over slavery which was race based.  

  In 1953 we began a second civil war when the Supreme Court declared the public schools should be desegregated.  Public schools have been under assault ever since and we as a country have paid an awful price for it.  

  Segregation, by race, by religion, or view of creation is a bad thing for everyone.  As said above we are in a Global Economy.  If we break apart and fight over really irrelevant things we will fall behind the rest of the world, just as we have in education, because of our differences.  

  We can set back our clocks to the 1800's if we wish, but the rest of the world will go on.  

  Allow Intelligent Design and any other competing creation theories in to the market place of ideas that the classroom should be.  There are developmental issues to be dealt with regarding the abilities to learn at different ages but beyond that, have at it.  A child sets now in front of a TV and gets the whole world placed in front of them.

  AS long as parents are actively involved in a child's development, nature takes its course.  If ID can stand up to the scrutiny of the marketplace is a test it will sooner or later have to face.  Better our domestic marketplace rather than the world marketplace.
  

  by repearwo on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 08:31:05 AM PDT

  •  What planet

    are you from ?

    "2.  Science is a religion as well.  It is a faith that is just more documental by quasi-empirical data than the faith we call religion.  So evolution is a theory.  "

    how about getting up to speed on the scientific method and maybe read about the enlightenment a bit, then we'll talk....

    by blindcynic on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 08:53:57 AM PDT

    •  science

      "2.  Science is a religion as well.  It is a faith that is just more documental by quasi-empirical data than the faith we call religion.  So evolution is a theory."

      Science self-corrects. Galileo showed that a hammer and a nail (or whatever he used) fell from the tower of Pisa at the same speed. The Aristotelians who believed heavy things fell faster were forever silenced. Good thing they didn't have the GOP back then.

      "Allow Intelligent Design and any other competing creation theories in to the market place of ideas that the classroom should be."

      ID has ALREADY had two thousand years in the marketplace of ideas. It was found wanting. Sun goes around the Earth, anybody? Maybe that old concept deserves a fair and balanced re-hearing.

      BTW: Mormons: You won't find buried chariots from the lost tribe of Israel buried in Upstate New York either ( I am NOT making this up-- they have "archaeoligists" of a sort up there looking).

      by TBarta on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 09:12:18 AM PDT

      •  And our Education System ahs failed

        to perpetuate that finding.  How is it that Creationism has the strenth that it does?  IT is not a pleasant answer, but in it you will find why each generation must discover anew old truths.

        The classroom msut always be a place of vibrant interchange of ideas.  It is our insistance upon orthodoxy that allows us to forget how we "know" waht we think we "know".

        by repearwo on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:06:47 PM PDT

    •  I would probably be wasting my time,

      I am up to speed and apparently ahead of you.  If there is anything that science had taught us is that we "know" nothing.

      "In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms." - Stephen Jay Gould

      My only disagreement with Mr. Gould comes with discussing the possibility of apples rising.  When things like that are discussed one begins to see the absurdity of such propositions without developing the dogmatic reverence for the religion of science.  

      Scientific method is based upon not assuming something without testing it.  (as you have made assumptions about me without any knowledge or query about me.)  An open discussion of ID in the classroom would invariably introduce valid questions about both ID and evolution.  

      So people who are reactionary about ID are no better than those who do so against evolution.  

      It seems a lot of people who read these diaries are no more open to free discussion and thoughtful dialogue than I would find on a ID web site.
      

      by repearwo on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:05:28 PM PDT

  •  Your premise is wrong.

    "Then the evolutionist (for lack of a better word) use the same argument; teaching intelligent design will undercut the learning of evolution."

    We aren't worried about the theory of evolution being undercut. We are very worried about the teaching and understanding of science and how it will be undercut.

    by mike101 on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 09:40:06 AM PDT

    •  Same thing

      "Teaching and the understanding of science" can never be undercut by the mere exchange of ideas.

      If you are going to get that close to my face, kiss me.

      by repearwo on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:08:16 PM PDT

      •  The

        idea that science will change and discover new theories and facts does not justify pretending that, for example, the idea that the sun will turn purple and rain down cheeseburgers is on the same rung of certainty as the 'opinion' that it will apparently rise over the eastern horizon tomorrow morning. The IDCists aren't interested in having their whacky crap 'taught' under the guise of critical thinking, that's merely a marketing ploy and it's either one you've fallen for or are perpetuating. I could say the same about teaching that the Nazi's didn't run the ovens that incinerated millions of people in WW 2 using the 'fairness' meme. And it would be a hell of a lot easier to 'fake the holocaust' than it would be to plant billions of fossils and cook research in every lab for 100 years to 'fake evolution'.

        Wingers are interested in forcing people who know IDC is utter crap to tacitly endorse Creationism as valid. The GOP is interested in nurturing a voter base who's initial premise is that facts don't count and are suspicious of science while credulously accepting any propaganda the powers that be hand down. That's all this is about. Science is just the clothing du jure.

        I have no problem at all with discussing this on a blog or you defending IDC on a blog. In fact it would be nice to see someone even state what the hell the testable theory of Intelligent Design is in the context of evolutionary biology.

        I have a big problem with legislators trying to end-run the scientific and educational processes to feather their own nest and their crony's at public expense.

        by DarkSyde on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:23:18 PM PDT

        •  Assuming facts not in evidence.

          There is nothing in my comment that indicates that I support or believe in ID, or that I have been duped by or perpetuate their thinly veiled attempts to get ID into schools.  

          My position is, as stated, free and open discussion - the light of day - only hurts that which is indefensible.  

          If all they say they want is a free and open discussion, give it to them and let them reject it.  

          If we are going to move into the 22nd century we need to rethink our worship of science.  The further we get in science the more we find that all that exists are electro magnetic forces.  At some point we have to realize that we don't exist and develop a framework of philosophy that with science can explain how I am writing this when I don't exist.  

          It is going to require some really big questions and some people who are able to think "outside the box".  ID is the 19th century's last throes.

          I have linked to UTI.
          

          by repearwo on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:42:08 PM PDT

          •  They

            have free and open discsusions now Creatiniosm is not a banned topic in the US or anywhere else in the Western world. It is taught in Sunday School, it is taught in  private schools, there are museums dedicated to it, there are sites all over the Internet, it is discussed in colleges, it is discussed in high schools as part religious survey courses, etc. You and I having one right now.

            Like I said that's not what this is about. This is the next "Gay Marraige" issue and they're giong to test out it's effectiveness in Florida. Gay Marriage wasn't relaly about Gay Rights in GOP minds, it was about producing outrage at liberals and support for them so they could encact their actual agenda which has almost nothing to do with Gay Marriage.

            by DarkSyde on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:47:27 PM PDT

            •  It can't be an issue

              unless you make it one.  The Gay community made it one.  

              You are right, so let it in the classrooms.  

              Light of day.

              by repearwo on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:10:54 PM PDT