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Dr. Hern to Dr. Dean: Dear Howard . . .

Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 08:51:13 PM PDT

Dr. Warren Hern of Boulder, Colorado--anthropologist, public health physician and specialist in abortion care--has attracted a great deal of attention by publicly exposing and denouncing the threat directed at him a couple of weeks ago by Operation Save America.  

When Dr. Hern read the piece about events in Boulder that I wrote and posted here and elsewhere, he responded with an appreciative but to-the-point letter that briefly touched on his views about what is wrong with Democratic politics and how to fix it.

And now Dr. Hern gives us more.

From Dr. Hern's letter published yesterday:

As long as the Republicans under current leadership are running anything, there is no hope.  Wherever possible, we must convert this energy into solidifying Democratic control over any political institution (such as a state legislature or governor's office) and to restore Democratic control where it has been lost (legislatures; both houses of Congress).  

There is no other solution, and it can't happen too fast. Some Democrats, particularly among the national leaders such as Howard Dean, do not understand this and are irrelevant to this process, which must come from below.  Anti-choice Democrats must be blocked.  The political message must be: vote with us, and you get elected; vote against us, you don't get to be precinct captain next time. Nothing else will do.  

Republicans who are not part of the current fascist leadership of that party must throw those bastards out, and that is the most important and difficult task.  Only then can we get back to civil discourse and bipartisan consideration of important public issues, particularly on issues of reproductive freedom.  It has happened before.  We can make it happen again.

I added that:

Dr. Hern isn't a politician. He doesn't buy and sell abstractions. He lives in an all-too-physical world, one awash with the daily sweat and tears of living, breathing and bleeding women to whom reproductive freedom has suddenly become more than just a poll-tweaking talking point.  He and all the other physicians who are still hanging in and providing skillful and compassionate abortion care in this country--come hell, high water or the ground troops, fifth column or otherwise, for the Culture of Life--don't spend their mornings spinning policy, their lunchtimes eating rubber chicken or their afternoons counting their bargaining chips.  

They live in my world, the real world, where this is the way it is.

Still, some readers of the letter expressed concern that Dr. Hern didn't seem to appreciate sufficiently Howard Dean's efforts to preserve reproductive freedom for women. Last May, Dr. Hern addressed his own concerns to Dr. Dean directly, and has kindly given his permission for that letter to be published.  

No further introduction is necessary.  As Flip Benham of Operation Save America now knows, Dr. Warren Hern is more than capable of speaking for himself.

22 May 2005   

Howard Dean, M.D.
Chairman
Democratic National Committee
Washington, D.C.

Dear Howard:

Congratulations on your election to the Chair of the Democratic National Committee.   I appreciate the energy that you bring to this job.

Each time I see you on Meet The Press, I get more agitated with your use of anti-abortion propaganda terms to discuss the issue of abortion.   You really have no excuse for this deplorable practice.  

You are a physician, and you know something about this issue from a health perspective that most people don't know.  You know very well that physicians like me who specialize in abortion services are not "pro-death" or "anti-life."  But that is exactly what you imply when you use the anti-abortion propaganda term "pro-life" to describe people who are opposed to abortion.  These are some of the same people who have assassinated physicians Bernard Slepian, David Gunn, and John Britton, who have assassinated other people working in abortion services, and who have attempted to assassinate yet other physicians and clinic workers.  

In using this reflexively pejorative term as though it were neutral and descriptive, you have lost my support. To me it represents a thoughtlessness, carelessness and superficiality about this critical issue that is really inexcusable for a person in your position.

You surely don't remember the occasions as well as I do, but we met first at the NARAL event in Washington in January, 2003 in Boulder at [name redacted]'s house, and at a Boulder fund-raising breakfast for you in 2004.   You have published papers of mine in your possession.  

Let's get a few things straight:

  • The principal reason for having abortion services legally available in the United States is for the health and safety of women.  During the 1950's and 1960's, this was the main reason why physicians were on the forefront in advocating changes in the abortion laws.   The Doe v. Bolton case, companion to Roe v. Wade, was brought by physicians and other health professionals from Atlanta.  

  • Abortion is a fundamental component of health care for women in the 21st century, just as it was in the last 25 years of the 20th century.  You, as a physician, ought to be one of the strongest exponents of this fact in the public arena, and you have an exceptional opportunity to do that as Chairman of the Democratic National Committee.   So far, you have abandoned that idea in favor of fawning comments designed to satisfy the most radical right-wing religious and political opponents of abortion.

  • The idea that abortion will ever be "rare" is ridiculous, and you should know that from basic education as a physician.   Abortion has been practiced by women in every human society for as far back as anthropologists can determine (cf: Abortion in Primitive Society by George Devereaux).   There have probably been not fewer than one million abortions per year in the United States for the past 60 or 70 years. The main difference between 1935 and 2005 is that abortions are now safely done by physicians (and, in a few cases, by physician assistants, as in Vermont) who can provide proper surgical and follow-up care.  

  • The idea that we can reduce the number of abortions by providing adequate contraceptive care for women and their partners is a superb and fundamental idea which the Democratic Party  should (as it does) support at every opportunity, and which was eloquently stated by Senator Hillary Clinton earlier this year.  But this is a position that is opposed by anti-abortion Democrats such as Robert Casey, Jr.   That opposition doesn't make any medical, public health, logical, political or legal sense.

  • There is no such thing as "abortion on demand."  That is silly.  There is "abortion on request," and why not?  But any woman who walks into my office and "demands" an abortion as though I were an abortion-dispensing machine will not get one, at least from me.  I am a person, not an ATM or pop machine.

  • Your idea of setting up "medical practice boards" to decide who gets late abortions was ruled unconstitutional in Doe v. Bolton in 1973.   Look it up.  You have no excuse for not knowing this.   It is also an invitation for the anti-abortion nut case doctors to take over the process.   Terrible idea.  Drop it.  

  • The correct identification for late abortion is "late abortion," not "late-term abortion" or "third term" abortions.  The phrase "late-term abortion" was invented by anti-abortion people to imply that we are doing abortions "at term" (i.e. 40 weeks of pregnancy).   Abortions late in the third trimester do occur, exceptionally, due to extreme circumstances, all of them health-related.   But "late" abortions (after 26 weeks, approximately) account for less than 0.1% of all abortions. And these are done by very few doctors.  As you may remember from our conversations, I am one of them.   If you have a question about this subject, pick up the phone and call me at any time day or night (phone mumber redacted ).   For your information, I am sending you my latest research paper on this subject, "Misoprostol as an adjunctive medication in late surgical abortion" published in the International Journal of Gynecology and Obstetrics in February, 2005, in which I describe the results in over 1000 patients having late abortions, many of them for terrible fetal disorders.   The major complication rate was zero.  If the Republicans and anti-abortion Democrats have their way, doctors like me will be unable to help women, and the complication rates and death rates due to abortion will go back to where they were in the 19th century.

  • For your interest and information, I am also enclosing an article of mine, published in Anthropology News in February, 2005, called "Anthropologists, abortion, and the cultural war in America."  The online version of this may be found at  www.drhern.com/abanthropologists.htm.  

  • The idea that you are going to make the Democratic Party candidates more acceptable to anti-abortion fanatics, evangelicals, rock-ribbed Republicans etc. by getting rid of the words "choice" and "abortion" is absurd.  See my second point.   George Lakoff is right: "choice" is a consumer value word, but it carries a lot of meaning for people who vote Democratic because they have understood, up till now, that the Democratic Party stands up for women's rights.   Abandon that constituency and that language at your peril.  For one thing, it makes you look obsequious, and being obsequious did not put you where you are.  

  • "Choice" is not just a consumer value word about a material possession.  It has real meaning in terms of people's lives. In this instance, it has real meaning in terms of women's lives.  If abortion is legal and safe, a woman may choose whether to reproduce or not, or she may choose to have an abortion rather than to have a higher risk of death in childbirth.  That is not "gimme more stuff" choice, that is a choice about being.  This is about a choice to be.  

If women are not free to be, in what way are they free?  

If this country is not about the freedom to be, what it is about?

Abortion is an essential medical service that is necessary for women. It saves their lives.  People who think that safe, legal abortion services should not be available to women should vote Republican.

There are a lot of reasons why John Kerry and the Democrats lost the last presidential election, but support for reproductive freedom is not one of them. There are more people who support reproductive freedom in this country than there are people who don't support it.  Our challenge is to get the people who support reproductive freedom to vote, and to get them to vote on this issue.

Abortion has been the critical issue in American politics since Bob Dole disgracefully used the abortion issue to get re-elected in 1974 and since Ronald Reagan announced that he would try to make abortion a political crime against the state in 1980.   Saying that we won't talk about this won't make it go away.

Are you for freedom for women, or aren't you?

If women are not free to have safe abortions by physicians, they are not free.  

If women are not free, none of us are free.  

Best personal regards,

Warren M. Hern, M.D., M.P.H., Ph.D.
Director
Boulder Abortion Clinic

Cc: George Lakoff, Ph.D.
       Pat Waak, Chair, Colorado Democratic Party
       Hon. Hillary Clinton
       Hon. John Kerry
       Hon. Ted Kennedy
       Hon. Harry Reid
       Hon. Nancy Pelosi
       Hon. Chuck Schumer
       Hon. Barbara Boxer
       Hon. Ken Salazar
       Hon. Diana DeGette
       Hon. Mark Udall
       Hon. John Salazar
       Vanessa Cullins, M.D., M.B.A., Vice President for Medical Affairs
           Planned Parenthood Federation of America
       Ellie Smeal, Feminist Majority Foundation
       National Abortion Federation
       NARAL Pro-Choice America
       Physicians for Reproductive Choice and Health

Hmmm.  Maybe it's a shame that Dr. Hern isn't a politician.  Whether you agree with him or not, you don't have to wonder where he stands: shoulder to shoulder with me.

Tags: abortion, Howard Dean, reproductive rights (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 246 comments

  •  and the truth shall set you free... (4.00 / 3)

    Never have I heard it said so plain and true.  Thank you.
  •  Powerful (4.00 / 6)

    Thank you for publishing this letter to Dean here. This is the most powerful and compelling response to the parties backslide on personal privacy and liberty that I have read.  

    on a side note: Do you think you might want to remove his phone number from the post- 7th bullet point?

    •  Thanks (4.00 / 17)

      but I think we noticed that at about the same time!
      •  great work again moiv (none / 1)

        definitely alot to chew on.

        the abortion debate is in deed being discussed in frame of the "anti-choice" crowd if Howard Dean is using their terminology.

        from a strictly linguistic view, i wondering what choices Dean & we all have right now.

        I agree with Dr Hern.  I don't want to support these killers & wingnuts by my words.

        What is most effective on camera?

        Anti-abortion?  

        1.  pros: historically used, effective during the 80s & early 90s,

        2.  cons: however reminds people of "abortion" which may lose people who uneasy with abortion but are pro-choice; does not directly talk about the real issue "Choice" or "civil liberties"

        Anti-choice?  
        1.  pros:  directly reminds people about the real issue which is choice (not abortion), never mentions abortion which makes it easier to subliminally get people who are uncomfortable with abortion to go along with us.

        2.  cons:  new term;  sounds cheesy, obvious attempt to change frame (instead of subliminal)

        I'm using anti-abortion but I'm wondering if we need a term that never mentions abortion

        Of course, we can just stop apologizing for believing in choice & by that remind people that this issue is about choice not abortion.

        sorry.  just throwing stuff out there & messing up my thanks.

        •  With a 24 hour shrill news cycle.. (none / 1)

          ..I think the introduction of new terms will take root if they are repeated often enough.  Anti-choice, that way, is the best term I have heard - if the few talking heads on our side of the fence make a concerted effort to talk this term into the American political lexicon, we'll have accomplished a non-trivial task in reshaping the debate.

          Give me liberty, or give me death!

          by salsa0000 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:21:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, but (none / 1)

          In using this reflexively pejorative term [pro-life] as though it were neutral and descriptive, you have lost my support.

          His & your points are well taken, but can we really afford to denounce our best leaders over their word choice?  Shouldn't we care more about policy?

          It strikes me as almost self-parody to get this worked up over frames; that said, I completely agree that there is no benefit to continuing to use pro-life to describe the other side.  "Anti-choice" works clearly.

          •  "renounce" not "denounce" (none / 0)

            what was I saying about word choice? oops.
            •  answer yer own question :-) n/t (none / 1)

              i think there's a difference between Dr. Hern's criticism of Dr. Dean (hopefully) versus say Nader's.

              Dr. Hern knows the importance of getting Dems into office & will therefore work to better it.

              Nader criticized the Dems, decided there was difference between the 2 parties, & did something that we will have to live through for a long time.

              (Nader received alot of help though).

              side note.  It's interesting to see the difference between Dr. Hern & Nader.

              Dr. Hern, an abortion doctor who's life is in peril & gets attack all the time, doesn't have the luxury to debate the "differences in the 2 parties".  

              He knows to his bones the difference & is working to strengthen the party (& no one can accuse him of being a brain-washed Dem either).

              Just something for those Nader theorists to think - no, to live out.  It's one thing to abstractly talk freedom.  Another thing to be hunted by Rethugs who want to take away your rights AND life.

        •  Simply call them what they are: (4.00 / 2)

          The Anti's.

          I've long ago dropped anti-abortion or anti-choice from my personal lexicon because the Religious Right is against so very, very much. Instead I use "The Anti's" exclusively.

          Think about it for a moment. The RR is:

          anti-choice
          anti-gay rights
          anti-women's rights
          anti-children's rights
          anti-civil rights (or, they would be, if they didn't realize it was a lost cause)
          anti-birth control
          anti-gun control
          anti-evolution
          anti-stem cell research
          anti-science (in general)
          anti-UN (and the arc of 20th-21st Century diplomacy in general)

          Need I go on?

          Radarlady

  •  Democratic abortion politics (4.00 / 8)

    How do we square this circle?  We want to welcome anti-choice Americans into the Democratic party, but we must stand for preserving abortion rights.  

    I think we must focus on core Democratic principles.  We stand for freedom of choice for women.  The usual emphasis has been on "choice,"  but perhaps a more fruitful approach would be to emphasize freedom.  Our opponents thereby become not "pro-life," or "anti-choice," but anti-freedom.  Conversely, we are pro-freedom.  An artificial-sounding terminology?  Perhaps, but certainly more plausible than the other side's choosing "pro-life."

    Democrats can be anti-abortion choice, but they cannot expect this party to reflect that view.  As Democratic representatives they should not try to promote their personal views in the public arena.  If Bob Casey is against abortion, that's his right.  If he runs as a Democrat, he should be aware that his party expects him to represent its core value of promoting freedom for all Americans.  The analogy is with the politician who is personally against the death penalty being willing to enforce the death penalty as the law if she is in an executive position.

    Democrats can have heterodox personal views, but they must live by the core ideals of the party when they accept our nomination and help, and are elected to represent us.

    Hanoi didn't break John McCain, but Washington did.

    by Dallasdoc on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 09:07:17 PM PDT

    •  Say what you will (4.00 / 7)

      but if Bob Casey wants to take that stance, he better be prepared to take on each and every point raised by that letter. and provide a cogent response. No palliatives about "to each his own." He needs to get real and explain himself.  

      My guess is he'd rather attempt to skin a live gerbil than place himself in the position of having to defend his "personal beliefs" against the points raised by Dr. Hern's letter.

      •  We can't change everyone's heart (4.00 / 9)

        But we can demand party discipline.  And we can be much smarter about framing the issue.  Bringing anti-abortion folks into the Democratic party involves, IMHO, emphasizing common ground on other issues, and giving them the face-saving out of emphasizing abortion as an issue of freedom.

        We won't convert the bitter-enders, but for the voters who don't vote on abortion, many can be brought our way.  Republicans will talk this issue up to increase the single-issue vote; we must try to bury it to decrease it.  We must do this, however, without giving an inch on the basic principles of guaranteeing women freedom of choice and adequate availability.

        Hanoi didn't break John McCain, but Washington did.

        by Dallasdoc on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 09:21:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I can only add (4.00 / 13)

          that as a woman, I want it all to be about reproductive freedom...I want the government to stay out of any and all decisions I make as to how and when I will reproduce.  

          Maybe we should make the case that if we allow the government to determine when it is that we must reproduce then we are conversely allowing them to decide when we MUST NOT....

          I also think that many women would be attracted to a  position that guaranteees them some rights as to how they decide to manage their pregnanices and deliveries.  I was one of those on the front lines demanding options in regard to maternity care...

          •  As a woman (1.00 / 2)

            do you think any of it should be about the President on his own word being able to send American citizens to prison on a nearby Caribbean island where he or she can be tortured and then tossed down the memory hole?

            Get your priorities straight woman.  No one here is anti-choice, but when the Constitution is disintegrating, there are more basic problems to confront.  This nation survived as a democratic polity for nearly two centuries before Roe vs Wade.  We cannot survive the dismantling of the Bill of Rights.

            •  back off (4.00 / 6)

              and shitcan the sexist condescension.  If you told me "Get your priorities straight woman" to my face I'd kick you right in the balls.

              The fact is that this is not about "The Bill of Rights vs. Freedom of Choice".  You're making that up.  It's a fake.  If the Bill of Rights is in peril, it's not because of the Democrat's support of abortion rights - it's because of the idiots who voted for Bush, thinking whatever they were thinking about how he was going to keep us safe from terrorists, etc.  

              I can tell you that if the Democrats wimp out on support of abortion rights they will lose my vote, and that of millions of other women.  If you want to risk the consequences of that, then you're a fool.

              Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night

              by hrh on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:54:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Where the hell (4.00 / 4)

              did this come from????  Don't know about you, but as a woman, I CAN and OFTEN DO walk and chew gum at the same time...I'm certainly capable of dealing with more than one issue at a time.

              These two particular issues aren't even difficult...I can't be the only one to notice that those most likely to deny rights to women are also those that are likely to support the dismantling of the rest of our rights.

            •  Wrong (none / 1)

              there are more basic problems to confront

              Garbage.  Nothing is more basic and fundamental than control over your own body and mind.  If you see a conflict between vigorous opposition to torture and vigorous support of reproductive freedom, then you're the one with the screwed up priorities.

              Get 'em straight, man.

    •  I think there is a chance (4.00 / 3)

      that by welcoming "pro-life" candidates and voters into the democratic fold that we can make it clear that being "pro-choice" doesn't necessarily mean being "pro-abortion".

      Howard Dean has touched on this....he's talked about  how many of those identifying themselves as "pro-life" want abortion to remain legal...we can work (and live) with this position.  We can take the view of Queen Elizabeth I; we don't need to make windows into men's souls...people are free to believe as they wish as long as they respect the legalities.

      •  I was trying to get at this point (4.00 / 4)

        By depicting the abortion question as one of freedom, we can give "pro-lifers" the excuse to join our party.  After all, freedom means letting people make choices we wouldn't approve of ourselves.  

        The appeal is to humility:  the basic Democratic value that our own opinions only impact ourselves, and aren't necessarily to be foisted on the entire country.  The Constitution tells us what we must all observe.

        Hanoi didn't break John McCain, but Washington did.

        by Dallasdoc on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 09:48:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  pro-choice.... (4.00 / 5)

        ...has NEVER meant pro-abortion. that's the right-to-lifers' propaganda. pro-choice means EXACTLY that: supportive of choice. there's NOTHING wrong with the term pro-choice, and to think that there is, is a knee-jerk REACTION to the crap the nutcases spew.

        The radical invents views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them. - Mark Twain

        by FemiNazi on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 11:41:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  It's plain and simple.... (4.00 / 8)

      We are in charge of our own bodies, thereby our bodily functions, and our own destinies.  PERIOD!

      What's so hard to understand here?  Obviously men cannot take over our pregnancies for us when we don't want them.  So should we be forced to offer up our bodies against our wills for men who can never experience what we have to go through in an unwanted pregnancy?

      It does not take many words to tell the truth. - Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

      by Gabriele Droz on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 09:42:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agree completely (none / 0)

        But the question I was trying to address was how to appeal to the people who don't.  Ideas?

        Hanoi didn't break John McCain, but Washington did.

        by Dallasdoc on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 10:16:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think the only appeal we have going (4.00 / 2)

          ...is the one that we were born with our own bodies, therefore all of our bodies' responsibilities are our own and belong to us.

          If someone impregnates us and does not show us the love and committment it takes to take care of the consequenses of their actions, we retain the right to control the destinies of our own bodies - PERIOD!!!

          It does not take many words to tell the truth. - Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

          by Gabriele Droz on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 10:39:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  why do we want to appeal to these people??? (4.00 / 2)

          let's focus on the people out there who are already pro-choice but don't vote because they're apathetic? if we do what we did to defend social security (THERE IS NO CRISIS) about abortion (BUSH'S GOAL IS TO DO AWAY WITH LEGAL ABORTION WITH SCOTUS NOMINEES), then we will be on the right track.

          The radical invents views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them. - Mark Twain

          by FemiNazi on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 11:44:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Because "these people" (none / 1)

            are not completely homogenous and all of one kind.  Some think abortion docs are baby killers. Some (mostly men) want to return to an era where female biology really was destiny.  I think many are just typical, muddle headed Americans who have been told over and over that abortion is "bad" and wish to appear morally upright to their community without really thinking through the consequences of their actions.  These people need to be asked--"So you don't like abortion?  How do you feel about docs getting murdered?  Teenagers bleeding to death in back alleys?"

            It's all about the moral highground.  Dr. Hern has it in spades.  God I wish we could clone him.    

      •  it's so plain and simple! (none / 0)

        the fetus is an innocent life being destroyed and abortion is murder. why don't you people understand that?

        see, both sides reduce this debate down to such idiotic soundbites.

        certain people of color, evangelicals, religious folks, a lot of us have great qualms about abortion. progressive pro-lifers believe that defending the poor, the powerless, the oppressed extends to the fetus. i am sympathetic to that view, even though i support Roe. the 'freedom" and "rights" and "choice" narrative does not resonate with me, with its very White WEstern, individualistic orientation. the refusal to acknowledge that something innocent IS being destroyed is what i believe has allowed the pro-life side to gain the moral high ground.

        Dr. Dean gets it, and i'm glad. not all pro-lifers are crazy murderous fanatics. the vast majority are decent people who have a disagreement with pro-choicers and do not feel welcome yet in the Dem party, even though pro-choicers are welcome in the GOP because the GOP recognizes how to do good if meaningles PR (arnold, guiliani, etc). just like most environmentalists are not the crazy extremists who blow shit up and destroy property in the name of "saving the earth" even if the right wing tries to tar us all that way.

        •  And you're mixing things up. (4.00 / 6)

          Now, you may have a religious belief that a fetus is a human life; that's your choice. Currently, I don't see the government issuing any death certificates for aborted or miscarried fetuses.

          Why not?

          Because our government was not (up until the Bush Administration) set up to be in the business of forcing religious views down the throats of all Americans.

          Why not?

          Because atheists and persons of all religious shades and stripes are protected under our Constitution. Every. Single. One. Of. Them. Not just people who believe in the Bible.

          Everyone's religious or nonreligious views are equal and supposedly protected under our Constitution. By your comments here ("the fetus is an innocent life being destroyed and abortion is murder. why don't you people understand that?") you seem to take the position that the religious views of some should dictate to all (including the nonreligious), and that it's the government's business to carry out that dictate.

          It's not.

          P.S. I personally believe that animals are "something innocent" and live at our mercy, too. Should we be alarmed about destroying their habitat and eating them up at McDonald's, too? Oh, right. The Bible says their life isn't as valuable as ours, right? Well, if one believes that, then it must mean there are levels of importance that can be attached to life: some forms of life are more important than others. Then wouldn't the already-living be more important than "something innocent" that may or may not become a life at some point?

          •  Misunderstanding (none / 0)

            I think you're misunderstanding ihlin's point.  His/her intial sentence was not (at least how I interpreted it) meant as his/her defense of the anti-choice standpoint - it was an illustration of how both sides of the debate have convenient soundbite phrases to  confront the other side with to make it sound like the debate is an empty one.  

            It's important to have calm, dispassionate debate on our side on how to handle this issue because the stakes are very high and (to borrow a phrase) the quest stands at the edge of a knife.  We would probably go a long way in securing reproductive rights if we simply were not so reactionary and shrill in our defense of what is a standard medical practise.  I completely appreciate your point about not foisting one person's views on anyone else - in elementary school I remember that that was basically the operational defintion of American liberty we were given in proto-civics discussions.  And I also appreciate the fact that a large segment of the population is trying to do just that, and are using the abortion issue as a rallying cry to do just that.  But we should acknowledge that the other side of the debate does have people who are honestly struggling with the issue the best way they can, not resorting to soundbite messaging.

            Give me liberty, or give me death!

            by salsa0000 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:35:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  do you believe (none / 0)

            killing another human being constitutes murder? no matter what religion, atheist or not, most people think murder is against the law.

            so why does killing a fetus, who is a potential human being, not also against the law? i guess at some point in time, you would have sided with those who thought slaves were justifiable property and that i had no business enforcing my "religious" beliefs on you that all humans are created equal and slavery should be banned.

            do i agree with the above argument? not really. am i sympathetic? Yes. making this into a religion bashing exercise really gets you nowhere with pro-lifers. usually i tell pro-lifers that Jesus was about changing hearts, not laws, and that by focusing on laws, you are being pharisees. we should be doing everything we can do prevent abortion and provide care for those who need it.

            including this amazing story of the brain-dead woman who gave birth recently.

            http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201724.html?sub=AR

            you can bet the pro-lifers are giving money to this man's medical bills. the pro-choicers seem rather silent on this, and i don't see liberal blogs trying to raise money for him. as the case challenges our notions of when a fetus becomes a human being and that killing a fetus at 15 weeks is not a morally neutral act, no matter what religion you are.

            •  Your vehemence is (4.00 / 5)

              always on display, a racial dislike of white women and such stress for the fetus. "Murder" "Killing"...

              Really, you must move to citizen arrests at abortion clinics. But it is the rhetoric you love to ride....

              God forbid you even acknowlege that not all religious agree with you:  Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice

              This schtick was old with you long ago ihlin.  And very transparent.

              •  haha (none / 0)

                i had the religious coalition for choice sticker on my backpack all throughout high school. along with my subscription to Sassy magazine. god forbid religious feminists have some complicated views on this issue...
            •  Potential vs actual human life (none / 0)

              Note that in his letter, Hern mentions that abortions performed after the 26th week are exceptional and almost always for horrible fetal deformities or other serious health reasons. There has recently been some developments in neurology that support making a distinction between pre- and post- 26th week abortions: the development of the nervous system to the point that consciousness is possible. Michael Gazzaniga is identified with the statement that before the 26th week, the "neural correlates of consciousness" (NCC) are absent, but that after that milestone, it is possible for the fetus to be conscious, at least to some extent.

              Therefore, I think it is fair to say that before that point, the fetus is, as you put it, potential human life, unconscious, without a soul ("soul" in the classical sense in which it is identical to consciousness). It may be sad that the potential is destroyed by an abortion, but no human being who is capable of being conscious exists at that point, so there is no murder.

              However, it must be admitted that once that milestone is past, once the NCC exist and the fetus in fact can be conscious, then you're into a very different situation. While as Hern mentions, urgent medical crises that could greatly harm the mother, or gross fetal deformities (especially severe neurological deficits that would prevent the NCC from forming) could still motivate abortions, but much more strigent criteria should be required to justify a decision to abort after the 26th week.

              So, in answer to your question, I think that before the 26th week, while an abortion does destroy a potential human life, it is not murder because no human being exists at that point. After the 26th week, I think that abortion looks much more like murder. Imagine: the fetus is beginning to become aware of itself, to learn, to have memories, and to have emotions. If more people were aware of the ontogeny of the NCC, I think there would be widespread resistance to late abortions even among the most committed pro-choice individuals (with the exceptions noted above).

              Greg Shenaut

            •  That case does nothing of the sort (none / 0)

              the case challenges our notions of when a fetus becomes a human being and that killing a fetus at 15 weeks is not a morally neutral act

              The mother wanted that child and wanted her to be born.  Unfortunately, her premature death got in the way, but fortunately, medical science came to the rescue.  There was never any controversy here that I heard.  It was her choice.  Just as it would have been her choice to terminate (at 15 weeks or whenever) if she felt the pregnancy was adversely affecting her chances of recovery.

              But this says nothing about when the fetus becomes a human being.  It's possible you might be able to make a statement about the fetus' right to live trumping the mother's right to die (a tenuous right, if it even exists), but even that doesn't really apply here because of the mother's wishes.

            •  Wow... (4.00 / 2)

              "i guess at some point in time, you would have sided with those who thought slaves were justifiable property and that i had no business enforcing my "religious" beliefs on you that all humans are created equal and slavery should be banned."

              Wow. Are you kidding? How do you even know that I'm white? What a telling assumption that is. You explained yourself with that one quite clearly. You need to relax and come back down to Earth as it is, rather than what you would like it to be my friend.  

              I wasn't bashing religions: I was pointing out the our government isn't set up to be the doler out of religious law. No matter how much you would prefer to live in a theocracy, there are some of us that would prefer not to. No matter if we're religious or not. Some of us think the two shouldn't be mixed.

              Have you ever read any of Daniel Quinn's books (Ishmael, The Story of B, My Ishmael)? They are excellent at showing that many of our problems in society stem from the way we try to deal with human beings being human beings. Look around and see the corruption and the suffering and the ugliness in the world that stems from natural human behavior: we're greedy, we lie, we make stupid decisions, we go to war, we hate, we call people racist for no reason. Oh, sure, we're also giving, honest, make some good decisions, try to spread peace, we love, and we speak in ways that elevate conversation.

              No matter how much you'd like the world to be different, no matter how much you'd like all unintended pregnancies to disappear: it's not going to happen. This is different than saying that I would have been in favor of keeping blacks as slaves. One is about human behavior and dealing with the consequences; the other is about what a human being is or is not.

              Human nature is what it is. Both good and bad all rolled up into one.

              I'm not interested in banging my head on the wall trying to change human nature. I'm more interested in finding solutions to the guaranteed, inevitable human mistakes we all make in life from time-to-time. In this way, from my viewpoint, your side is not being realistic.

              You're not going to stop people from behaving like people, just like you can't stop a tiger from being a tiger. No matter how many condoms your side takes away; no matter how much misinformation about sex and its consequences coming out of the 'pro-life' side; no matter how many abortion doctors and personnel your side kills; no matter if you take the option of safe abortions away from American women. It's not going to stop people from having sex and accidentally getting pregnant.

              Did prohibition force Americans to stop drinking?

              Wouldn't it be better to just realize that we are the way we are (just as the animals are the way they are)? Women are going to continue getting pregnant; some men will continue to walk away with hardly a care or hardly a dent in the tragectory of their lives. Some women in this situation (or worse) will not want or be capable of bringing that child into the world. That's the reality. What is your suggestion to dealing with this reality? Outlawing safe abortions. Yep, that's the solution. That's going to put an end to human behavior.

              Those who can't handle or understand that that's just the way we humans are (no matter what they do or say to change it), are the ones who try to ram down these types of idiotic 'solutions'. Don't want an abortion? Don't get one. Don't want to get married to a person of the same sex? Don't. Don't want your kids influenced by our culture? Do what my immigrant parents did -- don't let them watch TV unsupervised.

              I'm fortunate because I've never had to be faced with that choice. But, damn if you or anyone else should have the right to tell me (or anyone else) what to do with my life in this area. I have a personal relationship with God -- I'll talk to Him about what I will and will not do with it. Not you.

              Today, the Government ensures that when pregnant human beings (who just happen to be women) find themselves in a common, if difficult, human situation, they shouldn't have to go back to using coat hangers and getting back-alley abortions. If your side is on a crusade to save human life, why don't you start with the kids dying in Iraq? Or in Africa? Or in South America?

              Stop meddling in the personal lives of American women. We don't need your help. There's a whole big, bad planet of people out there that need you. Put your money where you mouth is and go save some of them.

            •  All this does is demonstrate (none / 0)

              as the case challenges our notions of when a fetus becomes a human being and that killing a fetus at 15 weeks is not a morally neutral act, no matter what religion you are.

               once again that a woman can be brain dead and still fulfill her biblically ordained role. What a miracle. Just think, Terry Schivo could have gestated a basketball team.

        •  Why don't I "get it"? (4.00 / 2)

          Because of the insertion of the "innocent" in there.  If you are pro-life it shouldn't matter whether the life is "innocent" or not, so its inclusion in the discussion has to be about something else and that something else is where the supposedly moral position that you claim to be advocating isn't moral at all, but is about retribution and punishment.

          As I've said before, the test cases for "morality" (an individual's or a society's) can't ever be with the "easy" cases (like "innocent" lives that never have a chance to be born).  But that's what the anti-abortion movmements have done, pretending they are maintaining the utmost position of morality, with a cartoon characature of what morality in a complex human world must be.

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 04:21:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Well, the best way to do that (none / 1)

      is to eliminate 'pro-life' and 'pro-choice' as our terms of...well, as our terms of choice.

      Everyone is pro-choice, when it comes down to it.  Not having an abortion is a choice.  Having an abortion is a choice.  We all feel we have the right to make that choice for ourselves.

      So liberty or freedom works.  I tend to like pro-liberty better, it ties in more easily with concepts like civil liberties, so it fits into the overall Dem vocabulary better. But pro-freedom works for me, too.

      •  Either way, I'm with you (none / 0)

        The term "choice" has become so ingrained in the rhetoric that it might be around forever, but it hasn't ever done it for me.

        I make a "choice" about what salad dressing I want. This issue is about women's liberty, our freedom and even our very survival as autonomous people.

    •  just as dr. hern said in his letter... (4.00 / 3)

      The idea that you are going to make the Democratic Party candidates more acceptable to anti-abortion fanatics, evangelicals, rock-ribbed Republicans etc. by getting rid of the words "choice" and "abortion" is absurd.

      we must not attempt to reframe this issue just because we're uncomfortable discussing it. if you say to the women of this country "your freedom is in jeopardy," it will sound abstract and anythng but immediate. if you say "your right to choose an abortion is being threatened now more than ever before," THEN we'll get all the democratic votes we need to turn things around.

      the republicans have lied to the american public and now they're in charge. i'm sorry, but finding nicer ways to say things isn't going to change that. i think it's way beyond the time to talk to americans as grown-ups.

      wouldn't you rather educate than manipulate? that's what dr. hern is doing here.

      The radical invents views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them. - Mark Twain

      by FemiNazi on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 11:38:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  phraseology (4.00 / 2)

      I personally say that it's not that Democrats are pro-abortion or anti-life...

      we're anti-unwanted pregnancy.  And by more than one method: education, contraceptives, and then abortion.  

      It's just that simple.  We're anti-unwanted pregnancy.  

      While we respect the right of individuals to express their own points of view, they are not entitled to their own facts.-- NAMI

      by Kalopsia on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 02:05:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Agreed, "freedom" (none / 0)

      But freedom should be complete. There should be no "party discipline." That's about removing freedom. That's just the mirror image of the horrible "party discipline" that has about ruined all that used to be positive within the GOP.
    •  We have to stop.... (none / 0)

      The right wing equates "pro-choice" with "pro-abortion".  This is unfair and very disrepresentative of people with pro-choice beliefs.  People who are pro-choice are NOT "Pro-Abortion".  Almost NO ONE is pro-abortion.  Even people who have HAD abortions are probably not "pro abortion" as the right defines it as it's a very hard and deeply personal choice for any woman to be faced with.  With only very few exceptions no one is ever glad and happy to get an abortion.

      So why do we on the left have to equate "pro life" with "anti-choice"?  I think it's very possible for someone to have a moral objection to abortion and still not deny a woman's right to have one.  I suspect a lot of people on the democratic side who call themselves "pro life" would never think to vote for any measure that would restrict a woman's right to choose.  So why should we force all of our democrats to conform to our terminology?

      Hell, if it were up to me,  I would say all democrats SHOULD stand up and say "I am pro-life" and in the same breath say "and I am against government interferance".

      We have been allowing the GOP to define language as they please.  We need to take back the langage from them.  

      Because at our core we're all Pro-life.  The question is, are you "pro-government interference"

  •  Stunning (4.00 / 15)

    I want to know that Howard received that letter, that Howard read that letter, and I want his reply, here, on this forum.

    This comments in his letter should be archived immediately for quick reference when arguing on behalf of abortion rights. They are succinct, elegant, logical, compassionate, and unassailable.

    Life in the reality based community is sweet.

  •  thank you! (4.00 / 6)

    Thank you Dr. Hern for being out there fighting to protect my right to control my own body! and thank you moiv for getting the word out about Dr. Hern!

    where women's words are valued and respected, Our Word

    by artemisia on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 09:12:14 PM PDT

  •  Seems Like Howard Dean Needed a Spanking (4.00 / 6)

    Along with a lot of other wobbly Dems.

    I love the Bob Marley song:

    Get up!
    Stand up!
    Stand up for your rights!
    Get up!
    Stand up!
    Don't give up the fight!

    LL

    "No AMERICAN requires authorization to do the right thing."

    by LeftyLimblog on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 09:22:11 PM PDT

    •  had to blink (4.00 / 2)

      Wobbly Dems seemed like a strange mesh until I realized that you probably meant wobbly as in wobbly and not necessarily iww.
    •  I too cringed (4.00 / 2)

      I too cringed when I heard Dean call the opposition "Pro-Life" on national T.V...as though he had lost his legs and could stand-up for women who make up the majority of the Dem Party.

      I would like to see a reposnse from Dean.

      Hern is right.  Refrmaing this will not help.

      Twisting this issue to make it about "freedom" is pointless.  The "Anti-Choice" side will then make it about "Freedom for Fetuses."

      Enough.

      In many cases this reframing nonsense is more about Progressive naval-gazing and and large cirlce-jerk intellectual masurbation (framing sessions) than anything else.

      Abortion IS about "Choice."  Freedom is implicit.

      There is nothing "magic" about the term "Freedom" when applied to this discussion.

      Lakeoff is plain wrong.  Choice is not a consumer tern.

      He didn't invent "framing."  He simply popularized it.

      (I was part of a group back in the day that reframed the minimum wage discussion to the "living wage" discussion among other discussions without the help of Lakoff.)

      The larger discussion is about Reproductive Rights.

      Move on.

  •  damn it moiv, (4.00 / 5)

    you made me cry again.  that's two nights in a row now.

    thanks for the follow-up

    Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

    by a gilas girl on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 09:23:43 PM PDT

  •  What's so important about this letter (4.00 / 11)

    is that it goes back to the original arguments and philosophical issues about why abortion was an issue in the first place, both the safety issues, but also the political/democratic issues: without true reproductive freedom and choice women aren't free to be, can't fully be participants in the public sphere, can't be full human beings as some part of them is always subjugated, the choices being made for them elsewhere...

    I also like the "abortions exist and always have" line of reasoning.  we can't make them rare, but we can make them more dangerous.  that's the options that anti-choice folks prefer it would seem.

    Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

    by a gilas girl on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 09:31:23 PM PDT

    •  To piggy back... ;) (4.00 / 10)

      It is also valuable for this incisive look back:

      Abortion has been the critical issue in American politics since Bob Dole disgracefully used the abortion issue to get re-elected in 1974 and since Ronald Reagan announced that he would try to make abortion a political crime against the state in 1980.   Saying that we won't talk about this won't make it go away.

      The vicious politicisation of abortion (and women) for short term electoral politics. Now both sides are gaming women and reproductive rights.

  •  Moir (4.00 / 3)

    Absolutely incredible, following up yesterday's diary! Where have you been, and DON'T ever go away, please.

    It does not take many words to tell the truth. - Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

    by Gabriele Droz on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 09:35:49 PM PDT

  •  I like his style (4.00 / 3)

    No bullshit.  He's far more direct than even Howard Dean.  
  •  Was there a response from Howard Dean? n/t (none / 0)

    It does not take many words to tell the truth. - Chief Joseph - Nez Perce

    by Gabriele Droz on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 09:46:05 PM PDT

  •  Uh, wait a minute... (none / 1)

    ...he's attacking Dean for using the term pro-life, which is (by the way) commonly used in the national media as the preferred term for the anti-choicers?  (Just as "pro-choice" is the preferred term for pro-choice people.)

    I can see asking Dean not to use that term, but to come out and say that you'll never support a guy simply because he uses the words "pro-life" instead of "anti-abortion"?  

    I can understand how being under constant attacks can make someone very alert to nuances and to percieved slights.  But I do feel here that Dr. Hern's using a nuclear warhead when a water balloon would do.

    John McCain will end Roe v. Wade if he's president.

    by Phoenix Woman on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 09:47:00 PM PDT

    •  Dr Hern's letter (4.00 / 6)

      makes many points.

      My own biggest issue with Dean's May 22 MTP appearance was his bringing up the idea of medical panels.  And you see what Dr Hern says about that.

      It is much more than the casual use of "pro life".

    •  Dean is a doctor (4.00 / 5)

      IMHO that makes it especially important for him to address and frame abortion issues meaningfully.

      www.beyondmarriage.org

      by decafdyke on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 10:47:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  exactly (4.00 / 2)

        doctors should be held to higher standards in all this. dean has sworn an oath to do whats best for his patient.

        how much of a reach is it to move from patient to patients?  dr  hern is on point, as far as i'm concerned.

        i would like to hear deans response to this letter. someone needs to alert him to the fact we would like some answers.

        No woman can call herself free who does not own and control her body. Margaret Sanger

        by bayprairie on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:05:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  At Liberal Street Fighter (4.00 / 4)

          there will be an Open Letter to Howard on our front page and once that is in hand, we plan to send the entire series moiv has produced (from the first, a clinic bombing last month in Palm Beach Co FL to Dr Hern's Letter to Dr Dean) to Howard at the DNC and to Jim Dean at DFA.

          I am a long, long time constituent of Nancy Pelosi and we will send it to her, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara Boxer and others as well.

          Liberal Street Fighter

    •  When I first read his letter, (4.00 / 2)

      I was in total agreement with you.

      The more I thought about it, the more I saw his point, even though I'm not sure I agree with it entirely.

      Using pro-life and pro-choice as the two opposing viewpoints, I'm now thinking, only feeds into the politicization of the issue.  It's unconscious reinforcement of the idea that this is not a women's issue, but a life issue.  Which is exactly what the right wants it to be.  That way they can play the moral-superiority game.

      Look at the 'name' concepts in a group:

      Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice
      Anti-Freedom vs Pro-Freedom
      Anti-Liberty vs Pro-Liberty

      To me, the pro-life/pro-choice name implies a moral judgment being passed.  It narrows the issue. It makes it easier for the Religious Right to own the issue.  In fact, it almost makes it imperative for them to try and own it.  It invites knee-jerk reactions.  (Life?  Of course I'm for life!  Murderer!)  It defuses any attempt at dialog.

      Pro-liberty(freedom)/Anti-liberty(freedom) makes the issue broader, as it should be.  It's not about your particular religion, your church, your God, unless you choose to make it so.  It's about rights.  It's about the person.  There's no moral judgment passed immediately on seeing the term, it's something that requires you to think rather than to knee-jerk-react.

      So though I personally wouldn't go so far as not to support anyone who used the words 'pro-life', I can see where he's coming from.  This is a guy who clearly believes what he's saying, and he seems politically aware enough to know that if someone doesn't start the stone rolling, it's just going to sit at the top of the hill and grow moss.

    •  What I don't understand (4.00 / 2)

      is why co-opting the term 'pro-life' isn't a wiser move than rejecting it. Sometimes you strengthen that which you fight against. The best way to support reproductive rights for women is the best way to support reproductive rights for women: instead of talking about 'deporable' linguistic practices, why aren't we thinking strategically?

      We're not only on the right side of this issue, but we're on the popular side of this, and we still let them define terms? Fuck that.

      I am pro-life.  I am pro-life of young women, of children, of babies and newborns. I'm pro-life of poor kids without health care and of convincted criminals in a flawed justice system. I'm pro-life of the Earth, threatened by global warming, of the environment, threatened by rapacious and toxic corporate irresponsibility, I'm pro-life for small businesses and worker safety and in so many, many ways.

      They don't define my terms: I do.

  •  This is terrific stuff and I thank you (4.00 / 3)

    for bringing it to us.  Dr. Hern is brave and right to speak out.  This is not an issue that you can intellectualize, no matter how hard people try.  It is very stark and physical -- and from-the-gut-basic human rights.  

    First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi

    by flo58 on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 09:48:58 PM PDT

  •  The Question is What Can Be Done With Such (4.00 / 6)

    logic in a fundamentalist, anti-Enlightenment society, with a fascist government and a hostile information infrastructure?

    Come on Dr. Hern--put somebody or some pro-abortion ititiative into some race where there's a typical contemporary R:D ratio, and show us how that perfectly reasonable and truthful language and logic wins an election.

    We've got a population that consistently votes against gravity for Christ's sake.

    Literally.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 09:50:53 PM PDT

    •  I don't buy that (4.00 / 7)

      quit believing the bullshit media spin on the right's bullshit agitprop.

      No one running for national office, or many local offices for that matter, has made a strong case for reproductive freedom and robust women's healthcare since I don't remember when. Mealy-mouthed-half-assed-focus-grouped half speak, yes, but not a clear and strong political argument for women in a VERY long time.

      Over half the country doesn't vote, b/c BOTH parties have failed to speak to their needs for YEARS.

      Just a suggestion, but how about we actually try to PRACTICE POLITICS for a change and MOVE the debate, instead of following in the right's wake flapping our hands about like a bunch of frightened chickens?

      •   'reproductive freedom' = 'sex' (4.00 / 6)

        The right thinks it's won the abortion debate and now they are moving on to contraception. With the goal, ultimately, of disempowering women altogether.  

        A certain portion of the population has a deep deep problem with sex, women's sexuality, and powerful women in general.  Always have, always will. Look at wingers, and fundamentalists in particular.  If they aren't burning women at the stake (back in the day), then they are covering them from head to toe, locked up and uneducated.   It's an old, (tired) patriarchal fear of women.  

        The wingers today see the 'girl gone wild' ads, shake their heads and react to the admittedly debauched excesses of a 'permissive society'  with an attempt to ban all uncomfortable sexual references. Collectively shutting eyes, fingers in ears and shouting 'lalalalala' whishing the 60s never happened.  They search for the root cause and trot out the age old calamity of the loose woman.  She's not raising the guys kids right, she's arousing desire in weak men, causing all kinds of trouble with her newfound power over her body and her being.  

        So when the person running for office starts speaking out on behalf of reproductive rights, they might acknowledge the oversexed excesses of our culture.  But the answer isn't to disempower women.  

        If Roe v. Wade falls, it's not going to mean Burkhas for every woman, but the people who kill Roe will probably think it's a clumsy solution to the age old problem: what to do with those loose women.

        The abortion debate is really about 'do we want a society ruled exclusively by men?'  If you start taking away women's rights, that's where it leads.  

      •  you go madman (4.00 / 5)

        you're so right. im so tired of hearing everything cast as some sort of electoral game with my rights as the chess piece and some sort of "measuring" thing going on calling whether or not its safe to speak the truth based on whether you FUCKING win or not.

        that doctor up thread is speaking the truth to power.

        thats all that matters.

        thanks madman for saying what i feel.

        No woman can call herself free who does not own and control her body. Margaret Sanger

        by bayprairie on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:31:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  psssssst (none / 1)

      hey goose

      it isnt about the election

      its about the human rights

      No woman can call herself free who does not own and control her body. Margaret Sanger

      by bayprairie on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 01:25:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Howard Dean's framing of the issue (4.00 / 7)

    What I have heard Dr. Dean say time and again is that Democrats believe in women and families making their own health care choices, Republicans believe in letting Tom DeLay dictate people's most personal health care choices.

    I don't know how better to frame the issue.

    And remember: "pro-choice" Lincoln Chaffee will still vote for Bill Frist as Senate Leader.

    "We are the ones we have been waiting for" --Barack Obama reminding us we have to hold him accountable.

    by Jim in Chicago on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 09:51:35 PM PDT

    •  Exactly (4.00 / 4)

      Dr. Hern is seeing offense and backpedaling where none exists.  Which isn't surprising -- he has to be on High Alert all the time, or else he'd be dead -- but it's a bit saddening.

      John McCain will end Roe v. Wade if he's president.

      by Phoenix Woman on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 09:55:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Disagree... (4.00 / 3)

        using "pro-life" as a term, without explicitly talking about and knocking that term down... (i.e. describing exactly how the "pro-life" label is a lie and fiction) is an extremely valid point. That is one of the more troubling aspects of "frames" (the so overused term around here). Invoking them by using the language that calls the frame and context of the language sets up the actual thinking in the listeners (and speaker).

        Dr. Hern is spot on here, though I don't necessarily agree with his "I will never support you again" hyperbole. Though even there, Dr. Dean should know better and Hern is right in pointing that out. Dr. Dean, who knows the medical side of the issue(s).. and who is an advocate of Lakoff, should also know better from an political and linguistic perspective as well.

        •  Unless Dean is co-opting "Pro-Life" (none / 1)

          which it appears he is attempting to do.
          I'm pro life with regards to the invasion of Iraq.
          I'm pro life with regards to capital punishment.
          I'm pro life with regards to women's reproductive freedoms.
          •  EXACTLY! (none / 0)

            Remember how the cons have taken OUR terms -- "empowerment", "choice" (now used to justify our horrible health-care system and charter schools that destroy the public school system), "no child left behind" -- and using them for their own purposes?

            We've been talking about taking THEIR terms and using them against the cons.  Glad to see that somebody's actually doing it.  (And Dean does this sort of thing all the time.)

            I myself am on a one-person campaign to apply the phrase "politically correct" to conservative dogma.  

            John McCain will end Roe v. Wade if he's president.

            by Phoenix Woman on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:46:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  EXACTLY! (none / 0)

            Remember how the cons have taken OUR terms -- "empowerment", "choice" (now used to justify our horrible health-care system and charter schools that destroy the public school system), "no child left behind" -- and been using them for their own purposes?

            We've been talking about taking THEIR terms and using them against the cons.  Glad to see that somebody's actually doing it.  (And Dean does this sort of thing all the time.)

            I myself am on a one-person campaign to apply the phrase "politically correct" to conservative dogma.  

            John McCain will end Roe v. Wade if he's president.

            by Phoenix Woman on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 08:47:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  somewhat of a poor attitude (3.40 / 5)

    "The idea that abortion will ever be "rare" is ridiculous..."

    Perhaps, but we want it to be as rare as possible, and to think otherwise is a poor attitude.  I'm not for outlawing abortion, nor for shaming the women that have them, nor for making them jump through pointless hoops, but every abortion that is not health or rape-related is a tragedy in my mind.  

    •  I would venture to guess that most (4.00 / 3)

      pro-choice people would agree with you that all abortions are tragedies, but the difference between the pro-choice people and the antis is that pro-choicers allow the woman to make her own decision about it, not Tom DeLay.  

      First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi

      by flo58 on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 10:01:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  i'm pro-choice... (4.00 / 4)

        but i don't agree that all abortions are tragedies. sometimes it's the best thing that could ever happen.

        one thing i've never understood, in the right-to-lifers' way of thinking, is that a fetus that's a product of rape doesn't "deserve a chance at life." at least the catholic church (read pope), opressive as it is, believes abortion is never right under any circumstance. but they also think the death penalty is wrong, unlike most pro-lifers. gotta respect the catholic church for taking a stand and sticking to it.

        and as far as i'm concerned, the quibbling the right-to-lifers do just proves it's not about the babies, but rather all about "loose women."

        The radical invents views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them. - Mark Twain

        by FemiNazi on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 11:53:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Nope (4.00 / 4)

        I do not see abortion as a tragedy. Like the good doctor said, women have been controlling their fertility since way back when. Making women feel ashamed of abortion is yet another tactic to control women's bodies and reduce them to baby-making machines. Speaking personally, I had an abortion and I left that clinic feeling 10 times better than I did going in.
        •  Its a very difficult feeling to explain (4.00 / 4)

          I once tried to write about it and couldn't capture the breadth of it. Part of the issue is to have more women talk about their experiences with abortion, I think that's really the only way to change the frame.

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 06:03:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  When I first started posting on boards (4.00 / 4)

            I remembering writing that after the abortion I practically skipped home from the clinic, and darn, I was completely lambasted! And this was a board for Jane, a supposedly hip women's mag.

            But I agree (see that's twice agg), shame is a powerful force and the right has definitely used it to disempower the choice movement.

            The doctor's letter to Dean is amazing to me because it's been since forever that I've heard anyone in a leadership position speak truthfully about abortion. All this "rare" b.s. As if. How's that ever gonn a happen in a country which promotes abstinence as a cure and makes it difficult for women to access birth control?

      •  No (none / 1)

        pro-choice people would agree with you that all abortions are tragedies

        Not at all.  It's a medical procedure, nothing more.  

        What people need to get real with is that if you're pro-choice, you are making the statement that ending pregnancy is not a tragedy.

        •  No. 1 (none / 0)

          I don't even agree with my point.  It was late and I was tired and I was very ham-handed in making a point that even if you are pro-choice, you can have qualms about having an abortion.  

          No. 2.  I am pro-choice without any reservation.  But when I got pregnant and had to decide whether I would have an abortion, I was surprised to find myself thinking about the life that I could create.  It was shocking, really, to me that I would even "go there."  I did not have to make the choice in the end, because I miscarried, but my perspective was changed -- fundamentally.  I am no less pro-choice, but I don't think I would have an abortion -- myself.  But that is my choice.  And I don't want anyone to take that choice from me or you.  

          First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi

          by flo58 on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 10:31:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  giving up a child for adoption (4.00 / 5)

      is just as much a tragedy, to my mind.  

      And why isn't a health- or rape-related abortion a tragedy?

      Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night

      by hrh on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 10:09:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Giving up a child for adoption (none / 1)

        Is in most cases the prelude to a life term of pain, anguish and worry for the mother in question. In my case it has been 46 years.
        Reagan had Everett Koop conduct a survey on the long term effects of abortion on the woman vs adoption.  
        The results were so weighted against abortion that the survey was swept under the rug.
        In the case of an unwanted pregnancy the woman must retain the right to choose, to parent, abort or place for adoption.  Do not allow us to regress to the time and place when these choices were not freely available to women.
        •  do you mean (none / 1)

          "weighted against adoption"?  The studies I've read about indicate that giving up a baby for adoption causes far more emotional trauma and misery for the mother than does abortion.

          My husband is adopted, and we know his biological mother.  She has never gotten over the trauma of giving him up - even now that she knows him, and she knows that he never suffered any abuse at the hands of his adoptive family, and she knows that he now has a great life and a great job, etc.  In spite of all the positives that came out of it, she's been beating herself up about it for 42 years.

          Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night

          by hrh on Fri Aug 05, 2005 at 09:04:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oops (none / 1)

            Yes indeed I did, the  survey showed that the long term effect of adoption on the woman was devastating, inmost cases the effect of abortion was negligible in comparison.

            It took me 42 years before I found my daughter, unfortunately the reunion was not a particularly happy one and I have chosen to close it.  But, at least I learned my child lived and was well, and when the bombs hit London, she still lives there, I did not beat myself up with worry wondering if she were amongst the injured.

            I know this will be considered callous by many, but in my case there were only 2 winners the woman who adopted my daughter   and my daughter who stressed on more than one occasion both to me and my daughters how she enjoyed, unlike us,  financial freedom. Suffice to say we notice that empathy and caring for others was not part of her upbringing LOL. My feelings and well being were not considered back at the time of her birth through all the intervening years and even after reunion,  the adoptive mother managed to send me one message  "the adoption circle is closed".

            The stories of myself and millions of other women are hidden and not known to the public in general, we followed the rules set by the powers to be and kept our secrets and spoke to no one of them for decades, to our own detriment I might add.

            •  thanks for sharing your story